The hunch and the key

I have a hunch. That the ultimate truth, the secrets of existence, the answers to Life, Universe and Everything is in fact in front of us. Right there, or here, hidden in plain view. For everyone to see and for everyone to understand. That there is perhaps no secret and that the understanding of it all is up for grabs for any and all.

My hunch is further that it would only require a certain attitude, a willingness or idea of what to look for or how to really see what is here, there and all around – the ultimate understanding of it all. I believe the X-factor, the key, the “it” is right there on the table in front of you and me – a metaphor for within our grasp at every moment. My quest is to find that key.

515 thoughts on “The hunch and the key

  1. Absolutely like it! I think, tisk, tisk, I found the key needed and I’m currently working on turning it… That is opening up and becoming free. By reviewing those hindrances that have kept me locked up and afraid to open that particular door. Thanks for giving me some words on my actions which enable me to get past that blockage. I’m turning the key. 🙂 Then back on to higher levels.
    My name is Dee, therefore sight change as you see here.

  2. But what if absolutes are unobtainable?

    What if the best any individual can do is to build one small step of progress for future generations to use as a stepping stone?

    1. Don’t sweat it! All in high ARC! I, the MadHatter m a happy person who is in control of his Matrix (Life).

    2. Alanzo, Do you have an MU? The small step of progress you speak of is the base for the progress of future generations, Alanzo – the base is always BIG! Unobtainable Absolutes are only limitations place on you by You!

    1. Ah yes, he will keep you in the NOW! If you want to create a future IMO, look further.

            1. Oh but in the game itself there is indeed future. We’re talking about the game, darlin’, the game.

            2. Save the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves. Future Nows will be well taken care of if one’s full attention is on Now.

  3. yes there is the ulimate truth but only few belives that, that it is the ultimate truth. The ultimate truth is very simple and every one believes something extra ordinary… no, it is not.

    1. Aren’t you going to say what it is? And don’t tell me no one will believe you! (:D) That doesn’t matter anyway, but I noticed lately a few posters did believe what you had to say. 😉

        1. Oh, okay. Then I must have gotten the wrong idea from your many earnest posts. 😀

          But wait – which game do you mean?

          1. Kid 🙂 you are challenging me to tell! hehehe –wont work This has nothing to with earnest-ness. Geir just started a new game, it is a guessing game, each commentor will have to put their best foot forward, what is they reality.
            I am having tea want some? Come over…

            1. That was what occurred to me on second thought. Okay, good thinking.

              Tea? Would that I could! One fine day, kid-o… 🙂

  4. I agree with aotc. That was what I was going to state as my best hunch. I was going to say TR 0 but you could word it as being in the here and now. Or meditation.

    That seems like the spiritual-plus-physical equivalent of “Survive!”

    1. I agree also as that is the key. Then one needs to put the other TR’s into practice in playing of the planet earth, MEST game. That is, for when we are or want to survive in that game. Maybe I’m saying the same as you with verbosity?

  5. Maybe not quite the same but I agree 100% with the importance of all the TR’s, including 6-9.

    Actually, Lizabeth, as I think about it – I like it! If there is a single practice that should be carried on widely, I would say that it’s the TRs. So “TRs” might be the ultimate secret in playing the MEST game. Good on you! 🙂

    1. You girls better re-read what Geir is saying

      I have a hunch. That the ultimate truth, the secrets of existence, the answers to Life, Universe and Everything is in fact in front of us. Right there, or here, hidden in plain view”

      1. True. But he also says, “My hunch is further that it would only require a certain attitude, a willingness or idea of what to look for or how to really see what is here, there and all around – the ultimate understanding of it all.”

        The answer to “..how to really see what is here, there and all around” I believe lies in the art of communication, which is drilled and perfected by the TRs. And they would handle willingness and attitude too. Also, the Professional TRs course includes a good understanding of the ARC triangle. That might prevent a lot of ARCx’s. (That last was my best shot. :))

      2. We don’t see ourselves really do we? We are here hidden in plain view. OK, we have some MEST bodies and minds, mass to play with. And we are where we are! 🙂

    2. You did mention TRO first and yes, all the TR’s a secret to playing the game. I have a hunch then that the secret is WHO is playing, maybe that’s the secret.

  6. And true again.. BUT he sure covers huge terretory: ” MY hunch is further that it would only require a certain attitude, a willingness or idea of what to look for or how to really see what is here, there and all around – the ultimate understanding of it all.”
    ”’Willingness, idea, attitude ” ask him… he has written the puzzle game, he knows the answer to it too..
    art of communication is not full proof, since by now we all know how easy is to miss-duplicate by each individual.

    1. Geir, are you withholding valuable data insight us? Come on. You have to stick your neck out too. 🙂

        1. I can see your view on that because everything possible can be achieved after one erases the impossible believes since having the counter believes-the impossibles are the barriers to achieve. Eraser is the total abandonment of any thought ideas, attantions, attitudes. This was my answer when I read your riddle.
          Marildi and i we talked this over on the phone…

          1. Eliz. After watching The Matrix flyer, was never into it quite, but just seeing all that Mest, solidity, fighting, war, adventure and probably fun too. Seems to me the hidden key or what is not generally seen, is the spirit of those men or beings, altho essence is apparent. Oh, what do I know, just playing this game and it’s fun.

            Elizabeth and Marildi notice my new name? De 🙂

            1. I did see “the spirit of those men or beings” playing the game, each with goals. Now I will have to watch it to see what else is there and of course the story that goes with the game.

            2. I have seen you coming out, using your real name… well done you old pussy cat with wrinkled knee caps. 🙂
              The movie was not about what the “eyes could see” that was just a visual thing… really did not mattered much outside out of that it was fun to watch.

            3. I’m glad someone is watching (over) me. I even have a pix on V.V. now. I’m a gradient release! hehe. I think I’m still in the Star Wars days, and I loved Avatar. I shy away from the dark (on screen) ones, tho isene and Rafael have perked my interest in Matrix.

            4. DeLizabeth, I did notice your new name. Has it been Frenchified or Latinized or…?

            5. A bit of expose’ized, best can come up with. Kookieized, Frenchifried or Alienized 🙂
              My actual nickname is Dee

        2. I’ll call your Agent Smith and raise you a Sam Wesson. If you can dodge that bullet, then maybe you are tracking with the Matrix plot. Time is the key: Is there a was? If no “will be” then why a “was”? All is now? No. And not “Whatever will be, will be.” My hunch is that if we pick apart the Planck second we’ll see how to make “will be” “is”. It is that little cycle of action that fills all the other fractals.

          Riddle de DEE.

          1. Good point Matrix man, 2ndxmr. You know your stuff. Maybe I should see that movie. I heard somewhere from Ron that there is no time really. Like you say, is, is, is……. 🙂

            1. Yes, there is IS. But I predict all your ISes will be wuzzed.

              (Was that prediction predictable?)

              If there is predict, there is will be. The trick will be to predict the will be to be different from the is because what IS really likes to remain what it is and it takes cause to make is what cause would will it to be.

            2. “Is” will always exist in the present and in the future but not in the past! So we can’t say that “Is” will remain in the past!

        3. Okay, Geir, here’s your matrix – Divine Matrix.

          I just watched this 15 minute video talk by Gregg Braden and thought of your “hunch”. His metaphysical claim has a basis in scientific evidence, including a short film of how miracles (what are now thought of as such) can be turned into a very simple technology. Quote from the video:

          “The experiments suggest that Max Planck’s ‘Matrix’ is the conduit that allows the results that we see in the experiments!” Also back the late 1800’s was the idea that all matter is connected through an invisible web of energy – called the “ether” field.

          How’s that for being “right there, or here, hidden in plain view”, as you suggested.

          And wouldn’t it meet the requirement for “a certain attitude, a willingness or idea of what to look for or how to really see what is here, there and all around – the ultimate understanding of it all…a metaphor for within our grasp at every moment…”?

          Note also, that Braden briefly explains why it is that this information is suppressed in the media – the same point we’ve discussed on your blog before: too many careers and too much money stand to be lost if evidence of this type of psi (paranormal) phenomena were common knowledge.

          1. Apart from saying that Braden shows how far you can get with a nice head of hair, I’d have to say that I feel like I must have, much earlier, swallowed the blue pill and can’t see the connection to the Matrix that Geir does. I remember enough track and have enough certainty on my beingness and ability to not buy into being the induced dream of some body-in-pawn scenario.

            Geir, could you expand a bit on this hunch or possible metaphoric connection to the Matrix?

            1. Actually, I don’t think the Divine Matrix, as Braden called it, is like the matrix of the movie – it’s just a use of the basic definition of the word: “something that constitutes the place or form from which something else originates”. It’s not a reality that is separate and more “real” than this one but is basic to this one, the physical universe, and the two exist together. In fact, according to the scientific research mentioned at the beginning of the video, the energy of feelings extends at a distance of many kilometers from the body of the individual.

              And I believe Geir is in agreement with the notion that we are all interconnected, somehow. That is a point he more or less makes in his “On Will” article (per my reading of it, at least). On the other hand, he doesn’t agree about an objective Real World Out There, and I would love to see the two of you debate it. Anyway, I will let him speak for himself when he returns from sailing around the Greek islands but in the meantime I thought I would butt in. 😉

              Btw, I would have guessed you of all people would go for this Divine Matrix idea – doesn’t it align pretty darn well with the Higgs field and your own related QM theories, the ones you’ve made some posts on?

              And yeah, the guy does have a nice head of hair. But that’s not why I clicked on the video. (Honest! :))

            2. My comment about the Matrix was directed at Geir and his idea of the RWOT.

              The Higgs field is very likely the aether but unlikely to be the Divine Matrix. A “Divine Matrix” should be a theta-type matrix, or interconnection. Theta may well be interconnected from an initial entanglement in an initial theta body, an entanglement that may well be like a quantum entanglement, but in (I would expect) a “dimension” of theta.

              This “dimension of theta” would be a necessary dimension to distinguish theta from MEST. If theta only had as many dimensions as MEST it would be indistinguishable from MEST and could then be argued to be a product of MEST. However, if theta does have at least one occupiable dimension that is not common with MEST, then theta can be clearly distinguished from MEST and that dimension may be a common communication channel for theta. One’s “OTness” might be linked to the magnitude of availability of the theta dimension, i.e. the more OT one becomes, the more the theta dimension becomes available for communication or interaction with MEST.

              The healing mechanism used by the Chinese practitoners in the Braden video looks a lot like a powerful positive postulate at work. Their picturing of the future condition as being “normal” (“already there”) would be what would be required to overcome the “quantum inertia” (my term for matter’s inclination to remain in the last stable condensed state) of the MEST conglomerate of the tumor. That is to say, a strong visualization (postulate) for tissue to be in a normal condition causes that tissue to alter to a normal condition by alteration of the tissue at the molecular level. To achieve this the practitioners would likely need a very good understanding of the tissue they’re dealing with, but that is the realm of medicine and is well understood.

              By extension, this video provides additional argument for the possibility of the use of postulate to alter matter at the atomic and subatomic levels. Such quantum alteration would likely require that one understands the quantum nature of matter and can put the exact postulate into the matter (an exact wavelength or combination of wavelengths) that can overcome the quantum inertia of the current state (of the target matter) and cause a new stable state. The very, very short wavelengths that would need to be postulated would take a very, very high-toned thetan to produce.

            3. Well said, Anti-Matrix Man. But I dunno. On the one hand, I tend to agree with your view of reality, the idea of a RWOT (Real World Out There). But on the other hand, I go with Geir’s viewpoint that its “realness” and its isness is simply the result of agreements, of universally agreed-upon considerations as he put it in his article. He calls his theory “subjective” since it defines reality as being in the minds of “subjects”, but to me “subjective” implies something only perceived by one, or maybe “some”, but not all. So I would still call this an “objective” reality theory in the sense that it’s what virtually everyone perceives, a Real World mutually agreed upon.

              A true Realist, however, does not see any relationship between “mind” and the physical universe, and mind itself is considered nothing but matter, a brain – as opposed to what Max Planck, the Father Of Quantum Theory, said: that “…mind is the matrix of all matter”. In the above video, Planck’s matrix is described as “a conduit” and that’s what made sense to me, rather than it being theta itself – i.e. Static. I’ve thought of this unifying field as an interface.

              The main thing I can’t quite see in what you said above is that (in so many words) in order to postulate and thus be non-physical cause over anything in the physical universe, you basically have to know all about it. It seems to me that postulates can, and often have, altered illness for example without the person who is making the postulate being knowledgeable about the body. And with some OTs (or their non-Scn counterparts) a postulate can even more obviously break physical universe laws – which I don’t believe are particularly known to them, or not fully so. See what I mean, A? (short for Anti-Matrix Man ;))

            4. Geir, the reason why I thought of your blog post when I watched the video was that it seemed to me a knowledge of this Divine Matrix might be “an ultimate understanding of it all” and create that “certain attitude” needed – the attitude that we are all connected. And the ultimate connection, amazingly, may in fact be a physical one, via the energy of “feelings” that extend outward from the person generating them – a finding of science itself.

              That discovery of science also seems to align with The Factors, where LRH said that the interchange among viewpoints “is never otherwise than in terms of exchanging dimension points.” And this whole idea of connection – based on scientific findings, no less, would not be too esoteric for the average Joe to accept. As you so insightfully expressed it in the “On Will” article, this understanding could be a very “persuasive solution” because of all the agreed-upon considerations about reality that it matches – a solution that would free people from the evils of “separateness” from others. Possibly the real root of all evil

            5. p.s. Thinking more about it, I can see how what you’re saying could very well be true. The OTs who visibly break the rules of physics and biology – as has been witnessed many times, in spite of the suppression of such by science and the status quo – those OTs probably don’t have much, if any, knowledge or awareness of the quantum mechanics or Life processes involved. But on a very deep level below their awareness – going back to the beginnings of the time track and MEST and, later on, the beginnings of Life – they would know precisely how it all works.

              And that knowledge could indeed be within their reach, if only on a so-called “intuitive” level. In a PDC lecture LRH stated that Knowingness is “a capability for truth” (Tech Dictionary), and at the top of the scale, at Know, would be that capability.

              So with the above in mind, I think I understand better the particular road to truth and spiritual freedom that you are looking at. It may even be a more direct route than that of unburying layers and layers of agreements and considerations. Glad you got me thinking more about it. 🙂

              That said, I’m still looking at the Divine Matrix (or call it the Higgs field) as being “distinguished from MEST” by virtue of the fact that theta operates in that fundamental field and is in control of it – through the one “dimension” that MEST doesn’t have, which is the ability to postulate and create. And what occurs in the matrix/ether/wave-field is either what theta has postulated as far back as the very distant past and set in motion – or what it postulates in the here and now. That’s why I thought the word “Divine” fit so well – it’s all run by theta.

            6. 2ndxmr, the p.s. reply was directed at you. It didn’t end up under my last reply to you but it was an addition to that one. 🙂

            7. Mar, re: p.s.. Yes, I got that and your reasoning was very similar to mine when I began wondering if the problem with making OTs did not have something to do with their MUs on how the universe operates.

              It is possible that there is an underlying all-knowingness of the mechanisms of the PU (physical universe), but there is also a possibility that beings had fallen below not-know at the relatively recent beginning of this universe. In that case they would have had to LEARN the mechanics of this PU, and they may or may not have.

              Regardless, it has been my own experience that the development of an ability does go much faster with a current understanding of the subject. If I later find a track point that had provided some foundational basis for that understanding, I’ll just take that as a bonus.

            8. Elizabeth, what “making an OT” meant was the “making the stated product of the grade chart”, which, amongst other things, includes “being at cause over matter, energy, space and time” (on more than the first dynamic) and, I would add, stably so. As well, the grade chart put “Operating” at OT XI.

              A few of the OTs produced by the church had wonderous stories of what anybody would call “real OT phenomena”, but even these phenomena were not stable. That was back in the early 80s. Current practice in the church practically gauantees a lack of “real” OT ability, and people who were there (like Marty) claim the bridge is dead-ended because no existing terminals there can figure out the path beyond VIII.

              I’m not sure many of us would have a 120,000 hours of time and 39 years to explore a route to OT. I’m hoping, and expecting, that knowledge and hatting can shorten that time.

            9. they will never find it, not one will find it. there are many reasons for that…. because You people looking for something which is writen.
              The true OT abilities is not what is written in the chart, and being on OT has nothing to do with those items you have listed above.
              Did it ever accure to you or any one that the chart is not correct that LRH was not right? Why those statement have not been questioned? Why were they blindly believed in?
              Why are you mentioning the 120000 hours and my years I have spant solo auditing? What that has to do with the price of tea in China?
              Yes there is stable state existing… can be had.

            10. “””I’m hoping, and expecting, that knowledge and hatting can shorten that time.””””
              Your dream, wish, postulate will never be..
              Never in a million years…. there are very good reason for that..
              I found it Absolutely fascinating that not one person ask me what is on the path, is there a possibility to shorten the walk… Well, you people wait and hope till somebody will wave a magic wand over you. but dont hold your breath
              All these years brought many big time auditors out into the field with their great auditing skills yet they have not made it past: Do birds fly? and you are waiting for better hatting? better lists?
              They all have the knowledge, all ready, where would they get more, better more workable? What have they done with it so far?

            11. What I consider the grade chart to be is a path to OT that is potentially very workable but not necessarily the best path. It was a path that came about through exploration as the most common path to follow. While it was workable for many it was disastrously unworkable for many others. The method currently employed by some field auditors – to take up what the PC has attention on – has great potential in the hands of an excellent auditor.

              Personally,I’ve been very curious about your path and abilities gained but I would be reluctant to ask you a any questions, here in this blog, about the path you took for two reasons: 1) because it was YOUR path – it worked for you but that does not mean it would work for others, and 2) discussing your path in an open forum opens it up to eval, inval and misunderstanding. However, if that’s fine by you I’m sure there are many people who would like to hear it – myself included.

            12. Now I ask you, if my path would not work for others because it is my pat, than how the Hell what others would invent would work for others? That is the same thing.
              You already have failed because you are limiting your-self just how many HOURES you want to spend, how many years you are willing to allocate out of your greatly important activities and you are only willing to achieve- gain your freedom if others find A FOR SHORT CUT for you to use, that better way, the easier path you can walk on.
              With attitudes viewpoints like that you are where you are and you will remain there. And you wonder why you have not seen and understood what you have read.
              Have it ever entered your mind: while walking on the Path using that knowledge what you already know you could be the one find that magical short cut for yourself?
              There are solo auditors out there who have written to me and they never have asked how long will it take… they only wanted to know the HOW.” Show me what you have done”.
              My God, and they are winning!!!!!

              PS: by now it matters not what others think about my universe, you see my friend, not one person have reality of my universe, my abilities and the knowledge I have gained, so how could anyone evaluate it?

            13. Elizabeth, what I see in your replies is misunderstanding of what I was saying, too much at this point to try and straighten out. If you’ve got constructive data to share, then share it. If you say that no one has asked about your path and then, when asked, say no one has a reality on your universe, an unresolvable situation is set up. I am interested in your contribution to the flow but what I see is a rant and I have no interest in that and will not further communicate with it.

            14. LRH said BANK is equal… so you believe auditing works only for some and not for others? LRH was right. addresing the bank , same questions work on the bank no matter where that person is.. what I read is Q@A.. huge amount of it.. in other words excuses, bullshit…

            15. Hey, 2ndxmr, I’m having fun playing ball with you. What say we play a bit more?

              The good looking guy with the hair (Braden) has more to say than he did on that one video. And interestingly enough, he is saying something very much like I have conjectured (as you may recall) but his theory is majorly derived from scientific research! The way I get it comes down to this, in a nutshell:

              Not only are people’s feelings projected outward from their bodies to a detectable distance of many kilometers (that we know of) but the whole of their feelings and thoughts (i.e. their considerations/postulates) are what in fact is continuously creating the universe around us, the reality we perceive. And this is how we are all entangled, and how and why there is creation and change and evolution of every kind.

              That is a unifying theory that struck me like an Occam’s Razor! What do you make of it, as a physics enthusiast?

              (Well, that’s a wrap for me for today. Hope to see your reply tomorrow. :))

            16. First of all I’d like to see the scientific research he talks about. Not that I disagree hugely with the premise but, from the scientific point which interests me, “how did they detect it?” Then, if he’s not just blowing smoke, I’ll consider what I heard him say – which isn’t new – more closely. The idea that a group concentrating a thought can have a result at a distance doesn’t necessarily imply “fields” to me as an aura would. It could well imply entanglement.

            17. Okay, that’s a fair and intelligent question. There’s an experiment Braden cites titled “Local and Non local Effects of Coherent Heart Frequencies”. Scroll down to experiment #3 at this site: http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/gbraden2.html

              Of further interest – in the video below (under 10 minutes) it’s interesting that Braden describes the field as a “mirror”, which is how LRH described Static in Scn 8-80, as follows:

              “Life is a static…This static has the peculiarity of acting as a “mirror”. It records and holds the images of motion. It can even create motion and hold the image of that…”

              Note that last LRH sentence especially. Doesn’t it sound a lot like what Braden is saying in this video?

            18. Oops, should have said Experiment #2 – it more directly supports Gregg Braden’s point about feelings going out at a distance. But the other two also support his various claims.

            19. Near the end he talks about entanglement as the means for theta communications, which I am in agreement with. There were a number of things I agreed with, but inerestingly it was the statement attributed to Max Planck that I most disagreed with: that reality as we see it is due to consciousness and that it’s not really there.

              To some degree that does fit with my own estimation of the operating mechanism of the universe: that every Planck second the particles of the universe go from our “real” condensed state into a probalistic “wave” state and then recondense into another “real” state. My disagreement is that I believe that the universe is rigged so that the next condensed state will most probably be the same as the last condensed state. That phenomenon would be necessary to keep atoms from continually flying apart. The idea does, however, allow for occasional random events to occur. These are seen in physics as random, instantaneous appearances of particles and light (even in a complete vacuum.)

              Consider that possibility – of particles turning into wave probabilities and then condensing back to a particle every Planck second – as a cycle of action.Consider that the Planck second is a unit of time so brief that it makes the fastest computer look like a lifeless snail.

              So just as a motion picture seems continuous (even though it may only be 30 still frames per second), our reality seems continuous because of the billions of billions of billions (and even more) particle condensations that occur every second. So we see “continuity” of reality even though matter may only be condensed half the time! The other half of the time we are a wave probability that has the possibility of condensing into some new form if consciousness can influence the mechanism.

              I agree that theta (consciousness) can influence the “next state” of matter, but I disagree with Planck that everything we see is due to consciousness. The universe was set up to get along nicely without us. It wouldn’t have evolved consciousness but there’s no reason it couldn’t have evolved life.

              Whether the universe was tailor made for our abilities (I doubt it) or whether we (thetans) just found we could manipulate it – have a game, if you will – we somehow found our way here and we’ve ended up where we are now – way south and with just a glimmer of an idea on how to travel back north.

            20. 2ndxmr, nice post! I track with you as regards the switch back and forth, every Planck second, between the universe (“reality”) being manifested and then going back into a “wave state”, which you’ve described before but never better. It’s an appealing theory because it’s so “neat” (all definitions :). (I don’t get the point about atoms not flying apart, but that no doubt has to do with my own lack of physics background.) And it’s easy to understand why “reality” seems like a solid continuity because of the unimaginable brevity of the Planck second.

              As for the universe being “rigged” in the way you describe, and “set up to get along nicely without us”, there was an exchange with a poster named Ferenc on Geir’s recent “Got something to say?” thread. He mentioned “universe machines”, which may relate to your idea. Here’s an excerpt of one of his posts:

              “The universe machines are a set of complicated implants design to keep θ [theta] mocking up the universe… part of an R&D on the upper levels, based on LRH’s R&D…” (In a later comment Ferenc said this was “from Ken Ogger R&D above OT 7”.)

              Only one thing surprises me about your responses to Gregg Braden’s data – that you don’t seem to have particularly taken note and be really pleased (like I was!) about the fact that even science now concurs that feelings and thoughts (i.e. the operations of theta) are manifested and measurable in terms of physical energy and that these things actually change the physical universe. (This was what I had speculated as to what would be the mechanics of postulates and considerations (aka “continuing postulates”). Remember? What a kick!)

              And to repeat what I noted in a previous comment, all these scientific findings are in keeping with The Factors – that all interchange between viewpoints is via dimension points. An awesome concept, IMO. Talk about a neat theory of everything – it all falls under physics. Aren’t you delighted, Mr Physics? 🙂

            21. Mar: “(I don’t get the point about atoms not flying apart…”

              2x: Atoms fly apart when they get an unstable combination of protons and neutrons. Protons and neutrons are themselves comprised of three quarks each. If the “next state” condensation were completely random we’d have protons changing to neutrons and neutrons to protons. That would create probable radioactive states in atoms (which would decay, emitting telltale signatures) that simply are not witnessed in nature. It is thus most probable that a continuity of state occurs (protons tend to stay as protons, etc.) until a major outside force causes a state change. I believe theta is capable of making that state change in an atomic particle but only once way back up the scale.

              Mar: “…the fact that even science now concurs that feelings and thoughts (i.e. the operations of theta) are manifested and measurable in terms of physical energy…”

              2x: I’m actually not aware that science concurs with that very much at all. Possibly some “off-beat” scientists (as I would be) but not the mainstream boys. As well, the “measureable” aspect is the thing that interests me but I don’t yet see it being done in a way that can be termed “measurable”.

              Overall, Braden isn’t telling me anything I hadn’t already gotten from my academic and Scientological studies. But I do think terming the subject as the “Divine Matrix” is a huge misnomer – the type that can create a cult following even if the intent was to create a popular following. That in particular, even more than hair envy, makes me wary of the guy.

            22. Thanks for the further explanation about atoms not flying apart. Then you say that a continuity of state is most probable “until a major outside force causes a state change”. By “outside force” are you referring to theta and/or something else, and if something else – what?

              You also say, “I believe theta is capable of making that state change in an atomic particle but only once way back up the scale.” So by “only once way back” do you mean theta no longer can?

              Glad you clarified the sentence of mine you quoted. I actually didn’t mean to say that “science” – as a body of knowledge or as scientists in general or their current views – has granted much of any credibility to the findings in the experiments about feelings. In fact, I get that the field of science is actively fighting that type of finding. I just meant that it was “science” in the form of scientifically conducted experiments that has made certain discoveries – physical universe discoveries – about feelings. And my word “measureable” should probably have been “detectable” – directly and physically detectable – as compared to the indirect findings of most paranormal experiments, where only the apparent effects of paranormal abilities can be measured.

              As for the term “Divine Matrix” – what’s not Divine about it , considering what it is that is being described? (Are you sure it’s not just the hair envy? LOL – you are hilarious. :D)

            23. Mar: “By “outside force” are you referring to theta and/or something else, and if something else – what?”

              2x: For the more stable particles (like protons), huge energies are required to smash them up and get them to disntegrate into their elementary particles. This is why it took the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) to gain reasonable certainty on the Higgs particle. Theta would have to be “way up the (tone) scale” to generate or postulate or control that kind of energy. I seriously doubt that any thetan on this planet could do that. If anyone wants to take the test, and passes, I’ll split a kilogram of formerly-lead with them. 🙂 😉

            24. I’m starting to catch on – you’re a would-be alchemist! 😛

              Seriously, do you really think that the power of force is more powerful than that of ideas?

              Or, I should say, postulates – which ideas essentially are.

            25. I’ve heard some good OT stories that certainly demonstrate the power of an idea (like stopping bullets) but that is still orders of magnitude below what I’m suggesting would be necessary for the ultimate alchemy test.

            26. 2x: “…that is still orders of magnitude below what I’m suggesting would be necessary for the ultimate alchemy test.”

              How so?

            27. Here’s an excerpt from the summary of the experiments described in the link above, with my bracketed comments:

              “What do the results of these experiments have to do with our present situation? …basically time is not just linear (past, present and future), but it also has depth. The depth of time consists of all the possible prayers and timelines [multiverses?] that could ever be prayed or exist. Essentially, all our prayers [i.e POSTULATES] have already been answered [generated]. We just activate the one we’re living through our FEELINGS [i.e. we re-activate our postulates, or simply create them as in “The Joy of Creation”]. THIS is how we create our reality – by choosing it with our feelings [our postulates]. Our feelings are activating the timeline via the web of creation [i.e. via the interface/conduit for theta], which connects all of the energy and matter of the universe.”

            28. Show me their calculations that leads to that misinterpretation and I’ll probably be able to show you where they went wrong. This isn’t a simple subject but from what I remember of reading Feynman’s story on it, the “infinite number of universes” interpretation came about as a result of “rationalizing” the math: they discarded numbers that couldn’t be rationalized.

            29. Oh, that was just some pondering on my part – wondering if that part of the quote was alluding to theories about “multiverses” (hence the question mark I put after the word). It’s a conceivable notion, as far as I’m concerned, but I didn’t see anything in those experiments that would infer that particular conclusion.

              It was actually the rest of the quote that I thought fit well with Scientology and other philosophical studies – and also fit with many OT-type anecdotes and personal experiences (yours included ;)). But now with these experiments we have direct, physical universe evidence!

              So let me TR3 and point out that you still haven’t answered my last question as to why postulates are “orders of magnitude below what I’m suggesting would be necessary for the ultimate alchemy test.” Do you conceive of postulates as being limited in some way?

            30. Duh. Obvious answer – the postulators. 🙂

              Okay, but how about this – you’ve already said in regard to your intended route that “Such quantum alteration would likely require that one understands the quantum nature of matter and can put the exact postulate into the matter (an exact wavelength or combination of wavelengths) that can overcome the quantum inertia of the current state (of the target matter) and cause a new stable state. The very, very short wavelengths that would need to be postulated would take a very, very high-toned thetan to produce.”

              It seems to me that with a “very, very high-toned thetan” who could produce “very, very short wavelengths” – the postulator would be adequately qualified. So why would a physical universe VIA, in the form of the mechanics of the “wave field”, be necessary to make a postulate? And doesn’t that place MEST and all past agreements with it as senior?

              Mine is a similar objection to the one you made to Elizabeth’s route – basically, yours may be an unnecessarily long runway :(. On the other hand, I believe people need to take the route that suits their viewpoint and (especially) their proclivities. Nonetheless, I am interested in your response to this possible objection. 😉

            31. Mar: “So why would a physical universe VIA, in the form of the mechanics of the “wave field”, be necessary to make a postulate?”

              2x: At a very, very high level theta may not need that via, but at a lower level it likely would have to postulate the correct wave field.

              The difference in levels of case I’m talking about here might have an approximate correlation if you consider two people, one operating the body while interiorized and one operating it exteriorized. The one could be very effective, even interiorized, and the other could possibly be equally, or more effective exteriorized. But interiorized is the first level of case state we typically encounter and it is that analog at the higher state – the ability to postulate wavefields – that I think may come before the ability to postulate the change without having to postulate the PU mechanism.

              I may be wrong, but that is my speculation based on the typical progression of abilities.

              Postulators, thank you.

            32. Still playing devil’s advocate here, I have to say that your theory doesn’t align with the experiments described in the link posted above (and re-posted below). There was no indication in those that the clear-cut, dramatic changes in DNA were brought about by subjects who had a thorough – or any – understanding of DNA. The same would be true of just about any postulate I can think of. Or for that matter about such things as group prayer studies and other “psi phenomena” research – which does present indirect evidence, at least, and is no different in that respect from pharmaceutical drug studies on patients or anything else where beings (theta/consciousness) are involved.

              And it was noted in the summary on that link that “These emotional changes went beyond the effects of electro-magnetics. Individuals trained in deep love were able to change the shape of their DNA.” It seems to me that the training needs to be not of the physical universe peculiarities involved but possibly of the theta principles involved – such as focus/concentration and intention – something along those lines. That is the type of training Tom Campbell, for one, does in his healing and other paranormal ability seminars.

            33. I’ll be happy to split a kilogram of formerly-lead with anyone able to prove you are right. 😉

            34. LOL! Well, I’m just quoting the experimental proof that I’m right. 🙂

              But okay, I’ll take the high road and you take the low :D, And I’ll be glad to share my gold with you first. 😉

            35. Please don’t use “Experiment #1” as proof of anything. The observations noted had to be concocted as that is not the way that photons behave whether they come from a vacuum or any source (other than a laser). The photons lined up in an ordered way?!! Sorry, that’s just eye rolling material.

            36. Okay, I will have to defer to your greater technical knowledge (bearing in mind that you could be snowing me :D).

              But what about the other two experiments – especially #2. They both seem unequivocal to me.

  7. If there is a key to be discovered, I do not believe that any cognitive structure – such as any religion or philosophy or ideology – will aid in its discovery. I believe that if a key is there, it will be discovered by abandoning all cognitive structures – human and “divine”.

    That’s my little stepping stone for this lifetime.

    You’re welcome.

    1. Maria since you love riddles, it must have been great fun for you being is session, since that is what sessions are, riddles. you take o piece of energy and you look at turn it around few dozen times, till you finaly find its origin, where it come from, what it was used for, how many different lables under it was it was hidden, to whom it was connected to, what effects it has caused, etc… i guess you get a general idea. i hope you doing well? elizabeth.

  8. Ladies and Gentlemen, we are talking semantics – What is the definition of hunch? A hunch is like saying – “I have a feeling” – which is not necessarily true or real. The fact is that the Ultimate Truth is in front, back, right, left of us, it’s what we can see, smell, touch, taste, hear, it’s our environment, that is our reality and the key to it is to be able to confront it so we can control it.

    1. Aaah, I like that. And what about gut feeling or hunch, how true is that? I confront my gut a lot. 🙂 also the feeling… confront then control it, am I with ya?

      1. Yes, you are with me because you confront your gut feeling! How many people do you know who really are brave enough to confront their gut feeling and make it real and are able to control it? I would venture to say – not many perhaps!

        1. Thanks, will take that as compliment.
          I guess they have to be aware of the gut feeling, before that. So comes down to awareness of self, eh? Or higher knowingness? Make it real, then control. Hey, heck of a place to find it, in the gut. Wonder where that saying came from, but I won’t worry about it and am to lazy to look up. 🙂

    2. Mad Hatter,you are pointing exactly in the wrong side ( to the objective cause over mest side of existence ). the matter doesn’t matter. In my view, the important part of the ” matrix ” are not the machines or the war against them but the self realization on the importance of the human dignity as seen in your fellow men ( you know , seeing yourself in them like in a mirror ) imho.

      1. Rafael, you’ve seen the movie! Good I like that, the “importance of human dignity seen in your fellow man”, thanks. 🙂 I can imagine.

      2. Point welll taken Rafael but if the Matter doesn’t matter, Why do you need to place any importance on the machines or the war on the machines? farther more – and I ask, Why is there a war against the machines? Could it be because we have no control over them due to lack of confront? So where is the dignity in that? Could you look yourself in the mirror now?

        1. MadHatter, you are asking too much questions at once but I will do my best try:
          the importance of the machines or the war against them in the movie the matrix are for me a symbol of the playing field designed to asist the humankind to evolve.
          the reason why is to learn
          could it be lack of familiarity with them ?
          the dignity is in the human interaction not in the human – machine interaction
          yes, in you, isene and any human being, not in the machines

  9. Ladies and Gentlemen, I know what it “is” what it “is’ is PURPOSE! If we are strictly talking about those movies, then the key is Purpose! It’s ok you don’t have to congratulate me for having the answer, I know am I genius! But thank you any way. LOL!

  10. A similar movie to the Matrix series was Dark City. Interesting take on who is creating what is “real” around us.

  11. Buddhists would say that the key is the recognition of the NATURE of your mind. Once you see it – (it’s right there always) then the “work” is to continue to recognize that nature all day and all night.

    Here’s a great book – “Rainbow Painting” Tulku Urgyen

    I’m pretty convinced after all these years away from scientology and now a practicing buddhist, that I had an advantage thanks to the years in the church …

    But — perhaps you are saying something altogether different as you have mentioned the Matrix and “reality”

    Enjoy your posts though and admire your early stepping away.

    Christine

  12. Marildi: Here is a copy of the comment made by Jim Logan — its under the Scientology 101 thread on Marty Rathbun’s blog. Hopefully Jim won’t mind having it posted here. I put it under this thread because I think it applies more to what you have been discussing on this thread rather than the tone scale thread.

    Integration: The Law of the Conservation of Energy and the Manifestation of Memory as Physical Matter, Energy, in Space with Time/Duration.

    In the 9th Advanced Clinical Course L. Ron Hubbard proposes that a flow of energy in one direction, will eventually “stick”. It will become, to some degree, “solid”, energy having converted to matter, greater or lesser mass. It becomes solid to the degree it is not acknowledged/answered/responded to. It is an “unacknowledged” thought, that becomes solid, as the flow is one way, to the thought, and not returned, as an “answer” or “acknowledgment” of that thought FROM another life entity.

    In this same lecture series, in a discussion entitled Background Music to Living, January 1955, this solid thought is described, and manifests as a “memory”. A facsimile of some moment in matter, energy, space and time, that is itself composed of matter, energy, in space and time.

    This initial “facsimile”, if it is a mental image picture of a moment of pain and unconsciousness is termed an “engram”.

    The facsimile can be “restimulated” by a new thought, again, manifested as matter, energy in space and time, that is in some degree, greater or lesser, similar to the original now solid thought.

    Thus it is theorized and observed that a memory can be brought to manifest in present time, by a comparable present time thought. There are now two “terminals” and between the two arises a flow, as the potentials are compatible for such a flow.

    Continued creation of the new thought, and its ever closer approximation to the memory, brings the memory ever into clearer view, along with the original pain and emotion of that facsimile. It “turns on”, as the process of intentionally restimulating the facsimile is done, the Dianetic Routine being just that; a procedure to narrowly restimulate, by a now present time thought comparable to a former thought/facsimile.

    By persisting with the Dianetic Routine, the full range of perceptics of the original facsimile are more closely duplicated by the new thought and the two terminals begin to discharge, one against the other.

    At “perfect duplication” of the facsimile by the now created thought brought about with Dianetic Routine, the original facsimile completely dissipates. It is erased. This manifests on the emeter, by the Tone Arm, which had by the procedure of approximating the original facsimile by new thought risen (the factual manifestation of “mass” demonstrated) and now “blows down” as this energy is cleared.

    Any of this can be and has been subjected to countless tests. Replication of the experiment is simple and the fact of the actual physical matter and energy, the “charge” can be observed as the Wheatstone Bridge device shows it as plainly as it shows a voltage in a car battery, and the increase in the “mass” with the adjustment needed to balance the needle, and the subsequent dissipation of that mass, as the engram erases.

    The factual mass, matter is converted to energy and then that energy is dissolved, disappears, is not conserved/translated to some other form, either potential or kinetic. An engram that is truly erased will not register on the meter. Any meter.

    Addendum: the original thought is “unacknowledged”. Later, the new thought, is “acknowledged” by this now “answer hungry” original thought, the new thought being similar enough to occassion an exchange. One “acks” the other, and the phenomenon of “restimulation” is apparent.

    NOTE: at “restimulation” the manifestation of “two way communication” begins. Sufficient TWC, put into effect by the being as the “base” of this dual terminal affair, by holding them in proximity, and the entire incident will dissipate. In the Scn Axioms (#24) this is expressed as total ARC will entirely vanquish any mechanical condition of existence, to wit, the actual physical mass of the engram facsimile.

    1. Thanks, Maria! Yes, when I first read Jim’s post I thought it might relate somehow to the idea of a Devine Matrix and the relevant experiments to do with the energy of “feelings”, and so I wanted to read it again to see if that might be the case. Now that I have done so, I’m not sure that it does in fact relate or correspond. Maybe you or someone else can see a parallel of some sort.

      But what is still very interesting is that, from Jim’s description (his interpretation of LRH, to be exact), it seems that everything about the bank and auditing has to do only with actual physical energy – nothing more esoteric or metaphysical than that. The “pc-looks-to-the-bank” part of the auditing comm cycle simply means the pc makes an energy duplicate of the exact energy pattern in the item being run, at which point the two discharge against one another.

      I’m still not sure, though, how an acknowledgement from “another life entity” (such as an auditor) fits in and this has been a question of mine – in terms of understanding the mechanics, the apparent “magic” of an ack. Is it that the auditor’s ack itself is literally a duplicate of the energy picture, based on a thorough duplication and understanding of what the pc has itsa’d? I guess it must be! Maybe someone else has some thoughts on this.

      Be that as it may, it does seem that the term “theta” universe, at the level of thoughts and feelings, has to do with the mechanics of those things and is simply a matter of understanding the physics involved. Thus, the Divine Matrix theory (or any other similar philosophical theory) still seems to be a via or level of reality between consciousness/static/theta and the physical universe, through which it operates.

      1. Marildi, acknowledgement DO NOT AS-is mass. it stops the continual creation of mass, cuts it and takes the creators attantion away from their creation, the creator now puts that attantion on the acknowledgement. which is now become at the same time his creation by agreement that its exists.

        1. So you are saying that “as-is’ing” mass is really just ceasing to create it. That makes sense according to what I understand about the cycle of action, which consists of CREATE – CREATE CREATE CREATE – COUNTER CREATE – NO CREATION – NOTHINGNESS. That sounds like as-ising to me! Thanks, E!

          1. Marildi, there is no counter creation but only continual creation and the moment of creation-experience is the NOW. If there is a counter creation than that too is a creation in that moment and experience. There is in fact no counter postulate but continual creation experience= we create in sequence, in order: second by second: I step on this stone while crossing the creek, that is now, I pick up my foot that is in now, move it inch by inch: each frame is in Now, I place my foot on the new stone Now, I feel my weight, I observe every sensation Now, picking up my foot again moving it a fraction forward that is now…just like a movie rolling in slow motion forward you only see one frame at a time. THAT IS NOW and that experience exist only NOW not in the future and it has no past that is the Physical Universe.
            While one is being in session one not going into the track but creates that incident in new unite of time. That is the reason the PC is asked to go over and over because the PC do not have a past life picture only the MASS-Energy piece and the PC is creating in new unit of time: IN NOW, the place the time is an illusion a consideration a label which we put there but in fact that time is not existing.. there is no time. only one continual creation-experience.

            1. Yes, I think that is the more basic datum – there is only CREATE – CREATE – CREATE – CREATE… or NO CREATION.

            2. Hello Rafael you dear old bug,, good for you.. I had to look up that word.
              How are you and your dear family?
              Where ever you live, do you have a heath wave there too? Here in BC, Canada went up to 103… sheer hell, We are in the moderate zone, we should not be having heath wave like that,
              My flowers and their leafs are burned off. Let me tell you Rafael the Devil will hear about this! I wonder who let him out?

            3. Dear Elizabeth, thanks for asking, I am pretty fine and my family is healthy and happy. Here there isn’t such heath wave but I will postulate a better climate for your beautiful flowers and their leafs. The devil is a good friend of me so we need to let him know what we thougth about this. ha, And by the way, he has always been out.

            4. Rafael, happy to hear your news, and yes he is not in Hell and he is our mutual friend, we had tea together on the other afternoon… In fact he is a very nice being and because of him, what has happened to him, I truly understand what BLACK PR can do. 3rd party stuff..
              The blame and its use is very heavy among humans….[ i too used to be a victim myself, always 🙂 ] I did not do it, the Devil did it.He made me do it!
              Stading on the soap box people point, shout: look what those bad-bad nasty evil people done to poor poor me! 🙂 love to you E.

      2. Marildi PS to the above.
        the reason it looks that the ack. has as-ised the whatever-energy-item because the person acknowledged has move off as i said before. now this is a good example to demostrate how there is no past or future exist only NOW. THe akcnowledgement becomes that now, the new question after that becomes the now.. the confrontation of thge PS’s is than happens in the NOW, than again the auditors Ack, Jim is wrong on that.

        1. There is another datum that basically says in order to as-is a creation, you have to duplicate it exactly. What do you think about that?

          1. I have writen about duplication over and over, LRH talks about it too. If you look at something which you have created as in NOW, to which no other thoughts, lies are added, not twisted in any way by who knows how many different believes over the eons, so when it is Looked at what is it just vanishes., by simple understanding what you have created.

        2. Maybe you and Jim and LRH are all correct. In a new unit of time (the NOW :)), I was just reviewing the bulletin THE MAGIC OF THE COMMUNICATION CYCLE. Here’s the first part of it:

          “If you look over communication you will find that the magic of communication is about the only thing that makes auditing work.

          “The Thetan in this universe has begun to consider himself mest and has begun to consider himself mass and the being that considers himself mass of course responds to the laws of electronics and the laws of Newton. He is actually incapable of generating very much or as-ising very much.

          “An individual considers himself mesty or massy and therefore he has to have a second terminal. A second terminal is required to discharge the energy.

          “Here we have two poles. We have an auditor and a pc and as long as the auditor audits and the pc replies we get an exchange of energy from the pc’s point of view.”

            1. Right again. From what I got out of that bulletin – it’s only when the pc considers himself MEST that he “has to have a second terminal”. It’s a matter of “the pc’s point of view”.That is no doubt the reason why an auditor is needed on lower levels but at a certain point of advance the pc is capable of solo auditing.

              This exchange has really helped me sort this out. Thank you, Elizabeth!

              (I will have to end off for tonight but we will talk more. :))

          1. Marildi the auditor is there to guide the PC he is not as-ising anything. the PC is doing the confronting-as-ising. The auditor has to BE there and do nothing outside of asking the auditing question and ack-ing.

            1. Yes, Elizabeth — Does this sound right to you? Scientology doesn’t work. The pc works. But the pc may need a particular approach that supports / facilitates his “work,” because he isn’t used to doing his own “work.” If the approach interferes with getting the pc doing his “work”, or the pc is told his “work” is “wrong” or the approach is used to do anything else but support / facilitate the pc’s “work” then the pc is diverted from doing his “work.” After a while it doesn’t matter what the auditor or anyone else does or says because the pc knows he’s doing the “work” and does the “work” as he wishes.

            2. Maria, it is interesting, though, that an ack still continues to have a significant and noticable effect, even after Clear and OT, both in session and life. And I somehow think that it involves more than immediate considerations – there seems to be a mechanism that goes into play willy nilly and can even catch you by surprise. This is probably true of all parts of the cycle of communiction, actually, but an ack seems to really stand out as powerful. Do you have any ideas about the mechanics in terms of the energies involved?

            3. Whoa, I just had an idea: When person A creates a thought (or a whole package of thoughts) and person B acks it in a way that indicates to person A a duplication of his own thought (whether actual duplication on B’s part is the case or not, as a matter of fact), then person A – in “duplicating” B’s thought as a duplication of his (A’s) origination – is actually himself duplicating his own thought. And that mechanism of the two duplicate thoughts discharging against one another would take place.

              Do you duplicate? 🙂

            4. Maria, you right the PC do all the work.
              The TECH the commands are so perfect, they are the Magic Wand and when they are just given. “Move into the beginning of that incident “ “go through that incident ”etc., things happen, the person just fallows those commands and “see”. Those simple COMMANDS are fabulous.. Directs the being to that item and forces the being to be there first time ever and to see his very own creation. . But of course he don’t know it yet that no matter what he looks at all was his creation[ blame is heavy at first and the responsibility has no meaning yet.]
              First ever just look, I mean REALLY LOOK” what is there, to look at that item separated from any other. It is beautiful how simply the Tech works.
              Maria, I have understood the tech from the very beginning that it worked , I was audited by a field auditor before I he sent me to the Mission his name was Peter and he was declared SP because he audited me without C/S, Bless him… the true brave soul.. but he knew what he was doing. He did not mass up my case, how could he, I was massed up so badly: I believed I was a human body!!!!! One can’t be more massed up than that.!
              Yes the PC need direction, needs the basic knowledge to understand what is happening but the PC is doing the work and no other person can do that for him.. That is the reason I believe in taking the Universe apart as I do, piece by piece as I have created that heap, piled it up and collected it , amassed it, believed it that is was mine , it was important, that it was solid, and now I don’t have a thing I own or have, I am not even a “”being”” even the “I” am is missing.. isn’t that great
              All has been as-ised because the use of the Magic Wand the auditing questions…. I love the stuff, what on incredible quest, to embark on the adventure in order to take the Universe and see for self how it was created by little old self…

            5. I consider the most valuable part of the ack occurs when it includes a granting of beingness, a recognition (re cognoscere)…… for an instant the two become one….

            6. Rafael, you may have something there! I’ve been trying to understand what makes an ack – especially some of them, so powerful – “tangibly” so: you FEEL it. And that can occur when you aren’t even expecting it. Whoosh!

              Your idea makes sense if you consider that a total ARC and total affinity, means being in the same space and, just as you said – the two become one. Now, that would be total duplication. Perfect duplication and understanding. A perfect ack and an as-isness.

              I think LRH said somewhere that if someone could give a good enough ack, the whole universe would as-is. (Do you remember that?) That would have to entail a full encompassing of the whole – i.e. BEING the 8th dynamic. Or (same thing) granting beingness to the whole. Yep, the whole enchilada (just to throw in a little “Spanish” for you, hahaha :)).

            7. Marildi, i am going to look into WHAT IS THAT WHOOOOOOSH!. That can be two thing, any kind of whooosh is energy….. that whoosh how i “feel” it, seeing it expands,

            8. E, I see that too – energy is surely involved. I was thinking the whoosh might be the disappearing of the energy – the as-ising of the mass of the pc’s item. It may be that an ack accomplishes this only when a full as-isness has not already occurred for the pc when looking, or upon delivering the communication that is being ack’d. It’s the same idea as one description of an F/N that says it can widen as the last bits of charge blow.

              Even on a correction list or other prepared list, there can be an instant blowdown (blowing of mass), a BD/F/N on a single word/phrase/question when the concept (intention) that is received by the pc is a duplication of an item in the pc’s mind/bank.

              A perfect ack seems to me to be something more than “That cycle of communication is now completed” – it also fully communicates that the auditor GOT the exact communication of the pc AND may even indicate more than the pc has been able to fully perceive or express but is there just below the surface – similar to giving the pc his item after the pc has listed items but not quite “seen” what THE item is!

              And that perfect duplication puts the two of them in perfect ARC and makes them “one”, if only for an instant. And it seems to me that all of the above can happen in life too.

              (You aren’t the only one who can be long-winded! :D).

            9. Whooosh… Ha ha,he,he that’s a good one. 🙂
              My avatar is a cat now on the other blog, they didn’t deserve my big smile.

            10. Dee, what i read in that blog…. not even a cat, you see i am very very found of cats and i would not send a cat to that blog… Cats are theta!!! would be nice if you would put that picture here in your awatar.

            11. Marildi………. Whoooosh… is a energy flow and could be huge as any explosions…. Since it is one… Whoosh is admiration a tremendous sensation, just think list for yourself items when you have felt that WHOOOOOSH. That sensation can be created and it is created when one seeing something one admires… There is different density- bulk- concentration to those created whooshes… energy.
              This won’t be easy to explain…. We admire the mock-up the energy flow before we view it-see it with the eyes since we already experience it so we know what is there. Than the eyes pick up images, so let’s forget what eyes do, that is totally inappropriate wrong and incorrect what they see..
              But that first experience if we admire something, some body by that I mean to us that mock –up is, and already has been established by us in the past –track that it is beautiful exquisite, attractive, gorgeous therefore it is desirable to have in order to enjoy that further. Since the “” recognition”” causes that whoosh, [ remember there is nothing new under all the suns but ‘’’cognitions.’’]
              Whoosh is, that sensation is the admiration that explosion of energy.
              Now if that adored energy is using an anchor point as a male body and happen to collide with one which is the males counter balancing energy; female body that causes on extra huge Whoosh since it is enormous energy mass .
              The systems-bodies are activated by that energy mass the strong whoosh and in that instant everything is speeded up, going into over drive, heart rate, all the glands etc..
              That is the reaction to the body, but the beings wants is to remain present, to continue to be there and to admire that beautiful energy to remain in place…. That is downhill from than an..
              The flowers will die, new car becomes used, old houses crumble, babies grow old, beautiful fruits are eaten, digested, bodies become like old leafs and slowly disintegrated, the thirst to drink from that admired vessel is quenched-the admiration is dissolved by the dissolution because the one who admires see’s with the eyes… there is nothing but disappointment…. So as in relationship one need to create continually as in ‘’now’’ , not easy to hold admiration in place….

            12. E, today I’m needing to fit in comments here and there and just now am getting to your post. Thanks so much for the insights about admiration and for bringing it into this whole thread about communication, and acknowledgements in particular. First, let me ack you with this – BINGO!

              Admiration is defined as “the very SUBSTANCE of a communication line”! I understand that better than ever now because of the exchange.

              It is also defined as “a particle that unites and resolves, like the universal solvent, all types of energy, particularly force”. That would seem to be the as-isness that occurs with the receipt of an ack – which of course is a communication, the substance of which is admiration. Yeah!

            13. Rafael, “ I consider the most valuable part of the ack occurs when it includes a granting of beingness, a recognition (re cognoscere)…… for an instant the two become one….”
              Reading your comment stumped me for a minute, since it’s significance did not sink in. So I am reading it over and over..
              I never thought of granting beingness as acknowledgement… but it is of course… by now I don’t claim I know everything on the contrary, I have discovered my knowledge is like the Swiss cheese in my case the holes in the cheese represent the me.
              Back to your statement…..i am reeling from the realization…now, I am looking at what is the value in that….right….. Allowing beingness and in totality without any counter intention, without any reservation, without any hidden –secreted thoughts what is the other terminal, yes and accept without any doubt what we experience, yes that would be duplication and as my friend has thought me by opening up his universe wide-open and said ‘’I am what you are” Oh, got it, there is no value, not if it is in the spiritual universe since there we were already one but in MEST has values, I won’t go into that.. I tend to be long winded with descriptions.

            14. Rafael, the “instant” part its meaning just sank in…. You right again… While one operates in the MEST that is only last for on instant because other considerations seep in but those considerations would be the “continuum” different creations -additions and, [I am seeing-thinking here] not the same instant… Thanks, I got it.
              PS I cant move on if there is something not totally duplicated…AHA!!!! cog; but in the spiritual universe where the duplication do happen , since it happens there there is NO INSTANCE exist. It really apply; I am what you are….Hell, one cant get the way from that, what fun 🙂 Any other addition of thought you have… please than expand, floooooooooow your thoughts!

  13. I have grabbed this post by Carcha from Marty’s blog because I really, really liked it and I thought it was quite pertinent to this thread:

    ******************************************************************

    Thematic and supportive to the topic: Scientology’s focus is clearing charge out of the reactive mind, de-polluting the mind. It is hard to see how such a science could be generalized beyond that specific application. There is no course offered in Scn, “Applying Aristotle To One’s Own Life” (but that would be one helluva good course). The big mistake I see is that people confuse Scientology with a total solution. It differs in two respects: 1) Scn is a total toolkit for solutions, not solutions themselves, and 2) each solution is crafted by the individual. It is up to the Cleared Cannibal to develop his philosophy, his methodology, of life (part of which is determining right from wrong). Those who have failed to realize and do this have fallen flat on their faces. Likewise, it is up to the individual to maintain his own philosophy, and thereby, to maintain and improve his abilities to navigate his personal and work relationships. Scn has tools to help the individual develop his skills, but these are like the tools a retailer sells, and nothing more. An artists’ supply store will sell brushes and paints to anyone, but does not teach art, much less dictate a style. Scn will sell its tools, and technical expertise in their use, to anyone, but will not tell that individual what to think of himself, nor make his decisions for him. That fine line of distinction is part of the genius of Scientology. It is a bold and very clearly defined line, when seen. The Co$ has fallen flat on its face, for NOT seeing it, and its “solutions” for personal relationships are dictated from above, frequently and increasingly in orders to disconnect. These are opposites of Scientology goals, and have their origins in failures of individuals.

    When the individual fails, Scientology fails. Scientology succeeds when the individual succeeds in his or her own self-determined goals, however far these may have drifted away from him over the years since the dream was first dreamt. It is then that Scientology succeeds, in theory, in practice, and in its intent. (Is this a “radical new thought” to anyone??)

    *********************************************************************

      1. Marildi last year the same topic was on the menue here in GEIRS blog.. I had a major cog on the communication that time and I have posted it here.
        So here it is again for you so you dont have to look it up in my blog.

        ”-Acknowledgement” its great power, one of the major solidifier of MEST Universe. Something has been bothering me of late on unknown energy floated about which I have not confronted yet. Pulled my attention, it was my reality that I real did not liked to be appraised or do the same to other. Either way I was not comfortable with it.

        Finally I got it, “ACKNOWLEDGEMENT”. They had stimulated me in many different way..

        That very words: good, yes, fine well done, OK as ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS drives a stake like anchor point into the center of the beings universe. Further solidifies the CORE=bank.

        An acknowledgement might confer one is good, doing well, should continue going on the agreed upon considerations, action, since what one is doing is approved by others who usually is close to us and love or likes us. In other words agree, have similar reality level as ours..

        And we look up to these persons with love and admiration and value they opinion, reality and believes.

        These acknowledgements do hold danger because it anchors “, the created energy” and holds them in place between two persons or become collective, group agreement, example: which politicians view point pro survival therefore better so lets vote for: that vote=acknowledgement solidifies his position in space he is in office for 4 years. Furthermore in the future all his communication will get further acknowledgements, more invisible energy lines will be created by the confirmation.

        Solid they become and remain: law is born.

        Same with any other acknowledgement, which we are giving or given by others to us, we too are tied to that being with an invisible line.

        That communications=acknowledgements hold that concept in the MEST Universe, Period, therefore has solidity in form of energy.

        With the so called times passing both will be forgotten, but the invisible lines will remain between the beings so is the act which was acknowledged till as-ised by both parties.

        The positive considerations, pleasure moments which we believe that they are better, since they are not destructive in sense, but they hold more power over the
        being since the pleasure moments pulls the person in-back to that blessed item over and over again like the joy of licking vanilla ice cream on the hot summer day.

        The pleasure moment is the trap which holds the being in the MEST Universe. They have greater power since the pleasure moments are continually re-confirmed=acknowledged, agreed too and the confirmations are the solidifiers to makes that continue and to remain in the MEST.

        The so-called “bad” we all want to destroy as-is, but the “good” we nurture. Yet both considerations belong to the MEST universe. They are the implants and they make the game the game, Gives the choice which side one once to play.

        On the Path of Enlightenment, on the Path of Light neither side whatever maybe, “good or bad” has value, since they made up of energy, express energy. MEST IS MEST.
        OH, to be or not to be!

        PS: I know that LRH meant acknowledgement as an ending of the communication cycle. That is correct 100% right but there are different realities on any given subjects. In this case I am Indicating that my conclusion is not ending with the same reality as LRH’s, Simply the is more to his.

        My view point is from the theta universe where things are not solid, therefore on acknowledgement is used to anchor the item, to remain solid so one could not lose it.

        That acknowledged item would remain anchored into the same place no matter how long it have taken one to come back to that same place. By acknowledging yes that is end that cycle, but also makes it remain in that place and time. I do not quote LRH he does not quote me. He speaks for himself and I speak of my own reality.

        There is no need to quote others after soloing one life time since I have had enough cognitions which given me knowledge on every subject I ever confronted. My knowledge is my own that knowledge has set me free from being dependant on others reality.

        “”Acknowledgement”” is a creation a stepping stone in the chain of creation-communication, just one frame in the rolling movie picture and each frame is the NOW because there is no past or future.

    1. Maria, I want to give acknowledgement to AUDITORS. Now to be there for the PC, hour after hour… well to do that takes something extraordinary , and that is; holding the so called space in place… intention to have that space there for the PC: to feel safe.. Not allowing the PC to walk away from the session sitting-being stuck in some incident. But finishing the cycle with a key out, a win.. yes, one needs a good auditor-guide at the beginning to be there till one can fly solo. Bless them all.

    2. Maria, well said…NOOOOOO… VERY WELL SAID!!!! yes the Tech is a tool and that is how I felt when i walked away in 82. I bought the services, have paid for their asking price in full and in advence and because of that i could use it as i pleased. It is mine and by useing that information the tools their result is mine too… i love this stuff… fun and more fun… the joy of creation-experience the NOW.
      Yes the church sells it but wants to keep it to… well, that is not OK in my book,

        1. Maria I been pounding nails for so long.. it is interesting one never runs out of nails…or the thing which I want to put the nail in…. the universe provides all the matterial whatever for one’s needs to make a game…we are building sand castles by the edge of the sea and the waves wash over it when we look away…we look back and there is nothing…. and we cry, oh how we cry: I knew I had a castle here, where is my castle, who has stolen my castle, my game? 🙂

        2. Maria you know what is the most amusing thing others too in the church have bought it and have it but not using it yet they cry it is not working, no good it is broken, i am sold a dode [dumy, I dont know how to spell that] i want my money back, or somebody do something and repair that dumb thing so it can be used!!! 🙂

            1. Maria, Here is a goody which you should have with your afternoon tea. Last few day I was in communication with one of the Churches registrar, Daniel and he wanted to convince me OF COURES ‘’PLEASE DO BELIEVE ME I AM NOT ENVALADATING YOU, NOT FOR A MOMENT” than he continued how the OLD Bridge, the old auditing was useless since it was done by and delivered by a bunch of squirrels and now all is well in the church and working and no he was not evaluating for me but I needed lots of help to bring me up to par to become a real OT as LRH was 🙂 here it is what good old Daniel said “ You can be on OT as LRH was with the new TECH because LRH could SEE THROUFG THE WALLS BY THE TIME HE WAS 5 years old!” HEHEHE…. Hehehe and more hehehe… from where ever my location is or is not…. 🙂 But of course after my oh so gentle communication in which I have dismantled him, he quit… but before that he really opened up and showed his true colors , his Hell, his reality-thoughts.
              🙂 But truly I was very gentle: I did not tell him I will tear his gut out and feed him piece by piece to the piranha’s or other gentle sweet creatures I have been pals with, of course I would not touch him myself because his flesh is effected by his poisonous thoughts.
              🙂 After all I am a self-respecting cannibal or has been… who has required his meals to go through the Purification Program as per LRH’s policy.

            2. Now that truly is a goody for afternoon tea!

              I congratulate you on showing truly remarkable restraint!

              I am surprised that he got as far as he did with his outrageous communication. It is one thing to speak of theoretical OTs, quite another to experience the real state. He is one of the fortunate ones, for he will never be the same. Must have wanted very badly to get on the right track to have managed to get you to see him!

              And Elizabeth, you could have purified him and then fed him to the piranha! Might have been a kindness!

              “Has been” indeed!!!

              He has no idea!!!!

            3. Maria i dont hold it agains him where he is since i have been there my self, i know his Hell. Sooner or later he too will confront his Hell… And I be at his side urge him and will be trilled, listening to his cognitions. I know I will not have a body by then but my “hearing” will be perfect…
              What ever he is doing that is his present ”’NOW” best…which is not bad, not good but it ”IS” a creation..
              Oddly as I write to you, I feel total affinity for him…. “I am what you are” is apply at all times.

            4. Maria here you stated something “” It is one thing to speak of theoretical OTs, quite another to experience the real state.”” Maria I have no clue what people sense when they are in communication with me when we share the same energy or they experience my energy.. But I know the reaction of those beings that are without bodies of the robot kind…
              It has taken me long time to get used to the acknowledgement the so called adoration to which I have greatly protested, not wanted to accept, rejected those flows every possible way and had session on those items.. Had lot of charge on it too.
              It is easy to except that one is HELL ON WHEELS, that is normal because those considerations are part of the control mechanism… degrade others and they feel small-powerless than I am above etc… lots of bull dodo.
              But to accept adoration, worship, high regard, universal veneration well my Dear Friend that really shakes one tree and needs lot of session to as-is. But of course when the charge is as-ised than one can have that.. Weeeeell, in fact some body hit me over the head with on invisible club before I did.
              Sometimes back I visitor has come [ he did not have a body, not shape of any kind, but I recognised him from other time and space] He asked me to accept the role because somebody had to be in that position and without that position there was no game for others. Logical request.
              I duplicated his request totally, It is ok to be not liked, hated than it should be fine too be loved and admired , venerated for ones accomplishment. You see, those without the bodies in the Spiritual universe where time, space do not exist do recognise –understand how the TECH, reverses the effects of the Implants… and there is rejoicing in the Universe since the cycle of destruction reversed.

    3. Maria, ””1) Scn is a total toolkit for solutions, not solutions themselves, and 2) each solution is crafted by the individual.””
      This above [which you have quoted and I thank you for that 🙂 from my heart], sentence say everything if people would understand this their blame vanish at once, for not attaining what ever they believed they should have,

  14. Marildi:
    “This is probably true of all parts of the cycle of communiction, actually, but an ack seems to really stand out as powerful. Do you have any ideas about the mechanics in terms of the energies involved?”
    I know you have not asked me BUT: I just explained what is a ACKNOWLEDGEMENT its role in the cumminication and you have agreed to it and said you understand. Than you turn around and ask Maria for the explenation what “ACKNOWLEDGEMENT” is… this what i call hammster running in its cage.

    1. Eliz, no, not a hamster’s cage – I did and still do agree with your comments about acknowledgement. I was actually moving forward from there to another aspect of an ack – the specific mechanics of the energy involved. The reason for my interest in that is that an ack, from my experience and what I’ve observed in others too, continues to have a powerful and observable effect on a person – no matter the case state, and no matter whether in session or in life.

      My comment was directed at Maria in response to this part of her post: “After a while it doesn’t matter what the auditor or anyone else does or says because the pc knows he’s doing the ‘work’ and does the ‘work’ as he wishes”. I was questioning the “doesn’t matter” part as regards an acknowledgement. It seems my idea didn’t resonate with Maria either as she has had nothing to say in response, but in any case I didn’t mean to limit the subject to her and would welcome anyone else’s comments too, including of course yours. Actually, right now I feel pretty good about my own insight on the matter. (Like you, I am capable of thinking for myself too. :))

      I see now that you have posted (re-posted) more of your ideas about acknowledgements and I will read it again, with interest, and get back to you. (It might be later since I’m kind of in and out today.)

      1. What no hammters? I really like those little critters. they are so much fun.. For you I will look if there something I have missed about ack… nothing…. just if one is ack.-ad than there is the stable sensation, =energy which is on anchor holds the being in place. Now if the ack, comes as a compliment it stimulates pleasing energy, if the ack is putting one down, one pulls the flaming sword and attacs in order to diffend ones turf. Aknowledgement is a energy no matter how I look at it.. and a step in the communication…

          1. Darling boy, did you read my whole post? Yes, acknowledgement do that as you say, but all that is life: whatever is MEST.
            No ack. means no stake driven into the creators heart… than no solidity, one is free… or spins in because he believes he is not seen…. hehehe…

            1. Dear Elizabeth, no ack = not granting life so it equals to degrading it to a condition of mest . All of us are creators, or to be more truthful, all of us are a drop of the same water, a water that shouldn´t be corrupted with mest into it . My recomendation for todays sermon is: give a good ack to your closest fellow man 🙂 .

            2. Rafael, beloved Friend, when I talk about something it is not a MEST point of view but from where one dont have the body, the needs or wants or must haves.: no re-stimulaton: they are none existent.
              So from here I sit what i observe happening in the MEST that a GOOD ACknowledgement is driving that stake into the spiritual beings universe-space and achor that being there solidly,
              BUT ON THE OTHER HAND WHILE IN the MEST, YES a good ACK is very much needed when one is at the beginings on the Spiritual Path.
              Here is my reasonong why; Persons =beings are , have become so unsure them self not knowing what is right or what is wrong, that by now they do need acknowledgement in order to understand “””HEY, I AM RIGHT, WOW, IS IT INCRADIBLE THAT I AM!!!. YES a good ack is vital at the end of the session and by the PC exeminer. It stablelizes the persons universe, that he exist and most of al he too can know…..
              Rafael dear boy,, wonders of the tech what is can do is sheer miracle….

            3. Dear Elizabeth, miracles can be gotten if they are sought in the first place by the pc and the auditor and if you are persistent enough to get them, otherwise one never will recognize this when it happens.

          2. Hi Rafael,
            “The real value and mechanics of an acknowledgement, a good topic for a whole post. My take
            is that it grants life….”
            “….for an instant the two become one” (as you wrote earlier).

            YES !!! In my reality it is not BECOMINGNESS but the INSTANT RE-COGNITION of our
            forever true ONENESS / NON-DIVIDEDNESS /NON-SEPARATEDNESS / TRUE NATURE.
            And this instant can be “continuous” that is instant-instant-instant……if it happens so, there is a felt sense of pure love…when one starts to create from that, that is art….and True Life lived…
            aliveness…living an enLIGHTened LIFE.

            1. Absolutes are unattainable. There is no absolute truth or untruth. If you can spot inconsistencies then there is something new to learn by resolving them.

              .

            2. Anything that doesn’t make sense is an inconsistency. The perception of inconsistency depends on the make up of the self. That perception is different from person to person.

              What appears an inconsistency to me may not appear to be an inconsistency to you.

              .

            3. The purpose of agreement seems to be to “make things fit.” Thus, a person who is trying to agree, assumes or dubs-in, for things he or she does not understand.

              .

            4. Vin: “The purpose of agreement seems to be to “make things fit.” Thus, a person who is trying to agree, assumes or dubs-in, for things he or she does not understand.”

              Chris: Yes sometimes. There is nothing wrong with seeing how things can fit. The two mistakes a person can make on this subject is to try too hard to make things fit so that they are distortions. The other mistake a person can make is to be deliberately disagreeable and insulate that bias under the heading of healthy skepticism.

            5. Elizabeth: So…. in fact inconsistency is not necessarily a inconsistency. No wonder that agreement what is and what is not impassible to attain.

              Chris: Well, the root of inconsistency is personal. Then a secondary inconsistency is “real” such as putting the wrong fuel in your car. You blog about personal reality which is consistent to you but you might get email from others saying that your reality is not real.

              When we audit, we are looking for inconsistencies and in fact this is what the emeter reads — inconsistent or as I like to call it; dis-harmonic mental considerations.

              Also, I just want to add that I do not presume to explain auditing to you — I am explaining the differences between the language that say you and Vin use when talking about similar things. To a very large degree, we all agree — we also use different words; words that we are comfortable with.

            6. The basic to all is the same after the inconsistencies are erased since ones knowledge what is about MEST, what is creation-experience has its limit. After all ”now” is now no one can argue about that

            7. Elizabeth, this is a good question. We rely on dis-harmony of any sort to see the frayed edges of the scene we are looking at. This disharmony is the inconsistency that we write so much about. But what about when things are almost perfect; when there is a preponderance of harmony? For me, I just try to enjoy it and wait til some disharmony; or as we both call it, an item pops up.

            8. I have found my answers in sessions, as you know I have not studied any of the so called WISE ONCE… I never bothered to look up who said what in order coordinate some reality of which I would feel most comfortable with and said.. aha I got it because what they say feels good…

            9. Right, Vin……..as they ARE….not as they were created a Planck sec. before….that is there is no time in it and you get infinity….that “mysterious” ONENESS…

            10. Marianne Toth, Wow , you are a really interesting person, as a drop of water in the ocean, unique and beautiful but the same escence. Two become one in esscence but of course not in character 🙂

            11. Thanks Rafael! And to Vin….let me explain AS-IT-IS…
              ‘ I ‘ as Life am creating that IT continuously to be “there” – that IT is ME. When another is creating another IT e.g. his body and ‘ I ‘ start creating IT in the same way as he is doing that,
              IT is “perfect duplicate”, the “creators” are then in “plain view” which is the “material” of the creations, which is LIFE, the ONE infinite LIFE….there is no more YOU and ME….its illusion is gone…..it’s ONENESS.

            12. Rafael, thanks! I can’t reflect to it now, as I’m cooking, a little later! Vin, the filter of Hubbard is
              YOUR creation, I haven’t got that!
              Rafael…..there’s a party on the thread LIFE…can you bring some good Latin music there? Dancing later? Would be nice!
              Eliz ! Vin ! Join us there too!

            13. what are you cooking… i would love to know.. please tell… and I also would love to be there thank for the invite.. will there be dios makos sutemeny?

            14. Eliz! Dinner is ready! Soup: meat soup with lots of types of vegetables (Marianne style-Hungarian taste-very delicious!). Chicken stew and rice mixed with peas. Dessert: coconut-chocolate rolls filled with orange cream. Kind of quickie for this evening. Hope you will like it!
              Tomorrow I am going to cook some non-traditional Christmas dishes and Marianne coffe-cream cake and another one but haven’t decided on it yet. This Christmas is different – the spirit of it,
              love is here but interestingly all the earlier “traditional kind of parts” of it are gone – not only from me, but from the family members too. I’m very happy about it – much simpler, much more intimate.

            15. Sounds good to me! thanks for the invite… I have given up tradition or as-is them long time back. I have found some of traditions from here now used-practiced going back an the track and even some of the music and songs I located. their origin.

            16. I would like to add… that your viewpoint is right… but there are other viewpoints on the same though and they are too is right.. -corret. and can be said none of them is correct… take a pick. or ignore all..

              On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:51 PM, elizabeth hamre wrote:

              > Good one Vin and that is your reality.. OK by me… > >

            17. There is nothing that is absolutely right or absolutely wrong. There are only inconsistencies that one can be sure of.

              I only know what I don’t understand fully.

              .

            18. Vin: Time track recall is just an excuse to plug in one’s imagination.

              Chris: I’ve really given this a bit of thought trying to reconcile my own “imagination” with reality and so far have found that personal history whether real or imagined seems to fire the brain equally well. Personal problems that I tell myself have resolved because of having looked at a past life incident seem to be and to stay resolved whether or not the considerations about images that I say are connected to the past are real or imagined. I’m not sure if there is any importance or significance so long as that history doesn’t need to interact with the real world. Then it becomes stickier. Example: MISSION INTO TIME.

            19. All that one is resolving through “track incidents” are long term suppressed inconsistencies. It doesn’t matter whether those incidents actually happened, or if they are just imaginative reconstructions of inconsistencies.

              Truth is not absolute. It does not have to be measured against physical reality. Truth is simply that there are inconsistencies and the resolution of these inconsistencies brings about improvement and increased knowledge.

              .

            20. Vin: “Time track recall is just an excuse to plug in one’s imagination.”

              You say that as an absolute which is inconsistent with your own logic that there are no absolutes.

              If you are ever lucky enough to run an incident with an identifiable location that you’ve never been to, and then go to that location and visually confirm your recall, you will thereafter have a very difficult time justifying to yourself that you invented / mocked up / imagined that incident.

              Personally, in many ways I’d rather agree with you. There is a lot of comfort in a dust-to-dust existence. A one-lifetime; an idea that the “soul” is just part of the cosmos. Very simplistic, very comforting, very much head-in-the-sand.

              It takes a lot more confront to confront the idea that you’ve been around a long time and will continue to be around a long, long, long time. There is no comfort in infinity. Without relief from the past, the idea of a long future could become unbearable. So unbearable that a being might willingly accept implants just to forget for a while that he’d had a painful past.

              Then there comes the day when you learn of the mechanism of forgetting and have to make the decision to go on forgetting or to fully take charge of the mechanism – which means taking responsibility for a whole lot of past and even more for what you do in the future. It means a change in ethics level because one now has to avoid using the overt act as a means of getting what one wants since it is the subsequent withhold that decreases the being’s ability, but not, unfortunately, his memory of the overt. It means one’s ability must be brought way up and one must use create to attain positives, not just grab someone else’s creation by overt means. It means attaining a greater understanding of our relationship with the physical universe and other beings, not individuation and denial.

            21. OK then:

              “Time track recall, many a time, seems to be used as an excuse for one’s imagination.”

              A recall is never stored in the same way as the original perception. The sensory input enters the brain and it is immediately processed into perception. Within 300 – 500 milliseconds the perception is processed into experience. In hours or days, the experience is then processed into information. As time passes, the information is further processed into hypothesis, theory, principles, axioms and self.

              Note: Self may be called “center of considerations” as a concept analogous to the concept of “center of mass” in physics.

              Thus, the sensory input gets encoded in the form of the following layers:

              1. Perception
              2. Experience
              3. Information
              4. Hypothesis
              5. Theory
              6. Principles
              7. Axioms
              8. Self

              Memory is retrieved when attention is placed on an area of the mind. The mind is essentially a cross-indexing of these layers. Attention simply activates the data one is interested in. This cross-indexing reconstructs the memory using the ability to visualize. This is recall.

              Thus, recall may not be an exact duplication of what was originally perceived. So, a measure of a recall against physical reality is not a good measure. A good measure would be the resolution of some inconsistency. If there is no resolution of inconsistency then one is simply dealing with imagination.

              .

            22. Vin: “So, a measure of a recall against physical reality is not a good measure.”

              Bogus and inconsistent with the idea of recall. There couldn’t, in actuality, be better proof of a memory than by physically verifying it.

            23. A recall is at best an approximation of physical reality. The closer to present time, the better is the approximation.

              .

              .

            24. Recall is in the ‘now’ is real to the person, just because it is not carved out of wood or stone that do not means it is not real. Your thought are not made out of stone or glass yet to you they are real..

            25. I really like what you said about recall. Also I admire your comments and most other commenters, as they are understood by me and they don’t get into the intellectual gobble gook and continual make wrong. Thanks love(s)….

              Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!.

            26. Of course. Time ages mest. But take a building. 50 to 70 years for a good building is common. So if you recall a distinctive building in a location that you have never been to, and then you drive there and see that the building is not only still standing but so identical to the recall as to be unexplainable by any other reasoning than that it had been seen before, then you have to do some major double-think to not accept that the before was before this lifetime.

            27. V ”recall” is just a given name.. in fact ONE RECREATES that incident in the NOW in the new unit of time.. One cant go back in time since that time that place is not existing any more that NOW no longer there or here or anywhere In a sense there is no past only NOW.

            28. Eliz, yes….considerations of all traditions must go….and also of groups, even “family” concepts etc. Mine are gone…interesting what you are saying about the origin of songs, music….I looked at some sports…actually not much interested…when it’s there, it’s there…I can enjoy all music in an absolutely new unit of time…kind of in the instant…

        1. E. – yes absolutely, acknowledgement is an energy. The question is whether or not it dissipates along with the pc’s auditing item. My understanding now is that in auditing the two discharge against one another and thus the energy of both dissipates and is gone forever – as-is’ed. And I believe the exact same thing occurs in life. But I think we are talking about two different definitions of “acknowledgement”.

          This is from a regular English dictionary: “recognition OR favorable notice of an act or achievement”. Simple recognition would not be the same as favorable notice (notice meaning announcing something).

          And here is the definition from the tech dictionary: “something said or done to inform another that his statement or action has been noted, understood and received… Acknowledgement does not necessarily imply an approval or disapproval or any other thing beyond the knowledge that an action or statement has been observed and is received.”

          In auditing, the auditor should be giving acks that only indicate she/he has heard and understood the pc – i.e. there has been a duplication . There should not be an implication of approval – which is actually an evaluation and against the Auditor’s Code. I have seen auditors crammed for giving an ack of that type.

          Your post on acknowledgement seems to be about acknowledgements that are also evaluations, and I too have ridged on that type of ack at times, sometimes heavily. But at the same time, I haven’t come to the conclusion that compliments or praise should never be done…. It’s still a conundrum for me. 😦

          You may remember that we had an exchange about evaluation on a thread many months back, and Maria was in that discussion too, btw. And here we are again. Rafael is right – this is a good topic and I think we should NAIL IT DOWN (loosely speaking! :)).

          1. Maybe we should start by calling this other type of ack an evaluation, to keep it straight.

            And then we should nail it down AND drive a stake into it once and for all! 😀

            1. Calling Dracula!!!!!
              Please Marildi list the evaluating acknowledgements, so i could see what you mean..
              I am blid as a bat,[ play with words= Dracula- bat- stake -nail ] so help me out here so we can nail the coffin shut!! 🙂

            2. An evaluative ack (although in the pc’s favor) might be something like “Yes, you were right and he was wrong. ” Or, “Your conclusion about that is correct.” Or, “I thought you did a good thing for your mother”.

              Even “Well done” can be an evaluation, depending on what is intended. If it is a matter of acking the pc who has just indicated he feels very good about his conclusion or cog, then it may not be eval at all – simly an an acknowledgement indicating duplication of the pc’s own evaluation.

            3. My examples were “evaluating acknowledgements”, which could be in session or in life.

              If your post is not about that kind of acknowledgement, please give me some examples of what you mean.

            4. “Assumptions, additions, opinions” can be used as acks.

              Compliments or agreeing with someone’s words or actions or whatever are also “assumptions, additions, opinions” even when the are used as acks.

            5. You are right, but we are splitting hairs … those expresses the person reality on what the other person talks about and that do not belong in session and the auditor is not being just there as he or she should be but part taking, butting into the PC space. you are getting away from the original thought. the simple acknowledgement.

            6. Dissipates??? No, it do not, it stops the on coming flow, creation… You know that, a acknowledgement is that. “Thank you!” with intention that is what it do. the intention is the energy which the words travel with.. The words really have no meaning if there is no intention as the base.
              Marildi where are you, are you digging for some data?

            7. “Dissipates…???”

              That is just another word for “erases” or “as-ises”.

              As for intention being the key part of an ack. that goes without saying. It’s the key part of any communication.

            8. Yes, I was looking at what happens to an acknowledgement – but not the evaluative kind, a true ack which only lets the pc (or person) know that you heard and understood their comm.

              But I’m afraid I have to call it a night (big day coming up tomorrow). To be continued… 🙂

            9. 🙂 and I though that nobody ever will ask what ever happens to the energy pieces which holds no emotions, sensations aches and pain…… well blow me to Bermuda… [ Merlin said] i am wrong again… 🙂 I hope you are all ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

            10. marildi, an evaluation is , in my view, a lying invalidation, so a false and untruthful statement, contrary to the very nature of life. So to correct it, we need to make rigth indications. What is you apreciation on this one ?.

            11. Wow, Rafael. You may have hit upon the key for differentiating a beneficial evaluation from a harmful one even of the positive kind. Maybe the ones that are beneficial are just what you suggest – a “right indication”. That could be a good point of departure for a discussion on what’s good and bad about “positive” evaluations. Food for thought! 🙂

            12. What comes to my mind is all the orginations I’ve been making on this thread. – and you have TR 4’d some of them quite nicely. Pass!

              (That was my latest origination. Over to you.:))

            13. Thank you so much for asking! That was delivered like a great auditing question and makes me want to itsa. Let me give it some thought and get back to you. (And not just as a TR 4 but really. :))

            14. Hi, Rafael. Well, I’ve thought more about this and I haven’t come up with any better idea than the one I started with – which was TR 0, That seems to me to be the most basic way to “see what is here”, to quote the blog post. Even the Q’s, per LRH ”the highest level from which we are now operating”, are ultimately based on the impulse for self-determinism. And how else would one be one’s own orientation point than “being there”? Othr philosophies and religions involve contemplation, meditation, prayer – all essentially “being there”, I believe.

              But after I had given the answer of TR 0, DeLizabeth suggested all the TRs might be needed and I had to agree. Did you ever see the LRH film titled “TRs in Life”? That film clearly illustrated how applicable TRs are, in every conceivable way, and opened my eyes as to just how vital they are in any and every situation. Imagine if TRs were widely taught.and people truly had them IN.

              All the TRs, 1-4 and 6-9, would actually be the needed practical tools to open up the whole of existence. Within those are the very basic principles of the COMM FORUMLA as well as CONTROL and INTENTION. What ills couldn’t be conquered? What games couldn’t be bettered? And from there, what horizons couldn’t be transcended, even the most metaphysical and holy? I ask you. 🙂

            15. marildi, yes I have seen the LRH film titled “TRs in Life”. you ask me ( on TRs 0-9 use ):
              What ills couldn’t be conquered ? a big amount of them.
              What games couldn’t be bettered? those involving greed
              And from there, what horizons couldn’t be transcended, even the most metaphysical and holy? TRs are in my view, good tools to develop comunication skills if done with common sense but to achieve metaphysical and holy goals with them, I don´t think so.

            16. Rafael, my idea was this: TR’s would be the keys that open all the doors – each door leading to the next one and that next one opened with the same set of keys. And with each new door opened new understandings and insights could be had, all building on the last.

              If a person were really “there”, how could he be in his bank, which is the past. And if he really knew how to communicate effectively with anyone or anything in the world around him, the understanding he would gain – together with the native ability as a spiritual being to postulate and to create –would result in no limits to the creating of better and better games to play and goals to reach . As for the metaphysical and the holy, I don’t see how a person’s growing awareness would not encompass those as well, albeit maybe only gradually so.

              Of course, all this presupposes a belief in the basic nature of beings as having constructive purposes along all 8 dynamics (which would exclude such things as greed, for example). And thus, as one game is conquered, other games would get mocked up which contain whatever barriers there may be – but unless the basic rules of the universe were to be changed, the tools to play and win would be the same – TRs. TR’s put into application the most basic rules. Of course, if the rules do get changed, the new keys would be based on those new rules. ¿Comprendes, mi amigo? 🙂

            17. That’s all very true, but remember one point of good communication is being able to match the tone level of the recipient. (+ 1/2)

              If you want to apply that to the world around you, you need to know how to find the tone level of MEST.

            18. 2x, I had to think about that last part. My first impulse was to disagree (vehemently :)) about MEST having a tone level, but then I realized that you are right – it too vibrates at specific frequencies.

              And, incidentally, I have to say that in your search for the ultimate fundamentals of MEST, you yourself serve as a great example of my whole theory about TRs and how they are keys to opening doors to greater and greater understanding of life and the universe. With your high ability to communicate you have already opened one door after another – that is to say, with your excellent TRs. 🙂

              The only place where you and I continue to part company (amiably, I trust) is in our respective viewpoints of which direction in the countless maze of doors that exist would be the most expedient. (And btw, I better formulated my own view as a result of the exchange with you on this thread. How’s that for an interesting twist? ;))

              I don’t actually doubt that your path is one road to truth, but so far I still contend that it grants too much importance to MEST agreements. While I do feel the way out is the way through – and that means through MEST – my hunch (seems I have a hunch to go with my key, ha ha) is that the most workable and fastest way to go, at least at a certain point in the journey (which point probably varies from person to person), is through the ability of theta to discard the old and make new considerations that override, overrule, and displace the currently agreed-upon considerations.

            19. Marildi: is ”through the ability of theta to discard the old and make new considerations that override, overrule, and displace the currently agreed-upon considerations.”
              You got that right sister, we as spiritual beings, theta, infinite-whatever label you want to hang on the nothingness in order to talk about it, we are not moving… only MEST-particles do…
              By erasing the particles=items, we just have different view points of the NOW..=particles-mass created.
              Only view points change… you see, this concept is so simple that to the reactive mind which is unsed to have and is made out of very complicated inter woven items, just cant comprehand the simplicity what actualy is.

              Reply Comments

            20. your sister not really wise, not in her book, but she has erased incradible amount of concepts. so, what happens when there are no concepts?
              example:
              Here, in, inside, out, outside, there, around, near, nearby, at hand, attendance, adjacent, next to, far, far-away, distance, remote, far-away, future, past, remoteness, space, next to, beside, close to, bellow, above, under, over, beside etc.. just mention a few . So what happens when believes are erased in which the being believes that he/she is in location?

            21. I don’t doubt the concept is simple – when you get there. It’s all in the manner of getting there. Is that simple?

            22. 2x, good response! You know how to pose a question with the best of them. 🙂

              I am going to have to look deeper at what I think I know as well as my assumptions. Will get back to you later!

            23. 2ndxmr: “I don’t doubt the concept is simple – when you get there. It’s all in the manner of getting there. Is that simple?”

              LOL, I thought the above reply was directed at me and my theory that the route to take would involve one’s considerations – basically, one’s ability to postulate. But looking at the email notification again I see that your reply was directed at Elizabeth’s comment.

              Nevertheless, it got me thinking that the same question about simplicity could be asked of you. And either I have forgotten or never did fully duplicate your idea that a complete and thorough understanding of the most fundamental fundamentals of MEST would enable one to be cause over it – and how that in turn would allow one to be full OT, which I might describe as cause over not only MEST but Existence, or we could just say “Cleared Theta Clear”. Please explain again how all that would work. I’m sincerely interested. 🙂

            24. Mar: “And either I have forgotten or never did fully duplicate your idea that a complete and thorough understanding of the most fundamental fundamentals of MEST would enable one to be cause over it ,,,”

              2x: The skilled carpenter makes pounding a nail into wood look easy. Why, then, do so many of the rest of us just bend the nail?

              There is both a skill set and a knowledge set to any technology. That’s one of the first things we learn in Scientology.

              The carpenter has to have a skill in swinging the hammer but he must also have a knowledge of what size and type of nail for each application.

              Would you try and build your own house if the best you could do was bend nails? Would a builder be advised to build a house using only one size of nail?

              An energetic person might be able to construct a house without ever having studied how, but by the end of that construction, the person will have learned many of the “how to’s”. The person will, in essence, have become a carpenter. If the person looked back at the path he may be satisfied that he figured it out or he may wish he taken a course on housebuilding. Chances are he would be able to see that a course on house building would have shortened the time of the construction.

              I use that logic to predict that understanding the basics of the physical universe will help me understand the route to being cause over it – in the shortest time. I certainly may be wrong but that is my evaluation and the approach I will take, modified by what I learn along the way.

            25. Ok, 2x, I got all that and it made sense as far as it went, but I still must be missing something. To carry on with your analogy, the person learning how to build a house would need data about nails and would need the know-how of application in the use of nails. But I don’t think he would have to know how nails are manufactured or their exact composition, if you see what I mean. That’s more like the aspect where I’m lost.

              An analogy isn’t what I had hoped for. Obviously, you wouldn’t be able to get too detailed and I don’t expect you to be, but a little more in the way of direct specifics would be of interest to me. It’s not even that I am going for talking you out of your pursuits – no way. There are many potential benefits to mankind, at the very least, as has already been made clear by QM discoveries. But I’m also very interested, as I say, in the benefits along the lines of OT ability, and I don’t want to just be glib in my understanding of how that would work. 🙂

            26. Mar: “But I don’t think he would have to know how nails are manufactured or their exact composition.”

              2x: Actually he would know something about those very points as they are important to the type, usage and quality of the nail. Sure, he wouldn’t need to know their atomic makeup, but he’d be able to tell you the difference between a high-carbon nail and a low-carbon one. At least if he was a good carpenter, he would.

              Look, you can draw lines and say “you need to know this ” and “you don’t need to know that” and at the end of the day one, or both approaches will be right, for one person or another. Logic and personal experience make me lean in one direction. It may not be the only direction.

              But I expect it is a direction that will work. For me, at least.

              As for OT abilities, consider the level of ability of the opera singer who can hold perfect pitch and shatter the crystal glass. That is the power of the phenomenon of resonance.

              Resonance can do more than just break crystal: it is the basis of the means for radio communications; it is the mechanism for precisely timing the functions of your computer; it is the good feeling you get when you are on the same “wavelength” as someone else. There is quite possibly nothing as fundamental in the universe as resonance.

              The tone scale is all about resonance, just in some different words.Some where along that tone scale will be the operatic equivalent of a high C for the universe. Maybe it’ll shake it, maybe it’ll break it. Maybe it’ll re-make it. Sounds like “cause over MEST” to me.

            27. 2x: “Look, you can draw lines and say ‘you need to know this’ and ‘you don’t need to know that’ and at the end of the day one, or both approaches will be right, for one person or another. Logic and personal experience make me lean in one direction. It may not be the only direction. But I expect it is a direction that will work. For me, at least.”

              Mar: Well said! And that is my sentiment exactly. 🙂

              2x: “The tone scale is all about resonance, just in some different words. Somewhere along that tone scale will be the operatic equivalent of a high C for the universe. Maybe it’ll shake it, maybe it’ll break it. Maybe it’ll re-make it. Sounds like “cause over MEST” to me.

              Mar: Well spoken again!

              Okay, I do have a better idea now of how the direction of research you favor could result in “cause over MEST”. And I can really see that. But I’m still not getting how that would be “cause” in any way other than through the VIA of MEST itself: e.g. Man can now “fly” and even travel in outer space, but only VIA MEST. An actual OT is “not dependent on the universe around him”, and is “able to operate without dependency on things” (Tech Dictionary).

              Here’s actually what I have been getting at: If I remember right, the other part of your theory had to do with having an ability to postulate the now thoroughly understood fabric of MEST – to quote your comment way upstream, “the ability to postulate wavefields” – and through that ability be cause over MEST as an OT. But what I didn’t get is how such a high ability to postulate would be gained along with the gain in knowledge. And more specifically what I dont get, is why one would even need that precise knowledge if the ability to postulate were that high – i.e. it would already be senior to any of the agreements underlying MEST. Would it not?

            28. 2nd;
              Interesting thing, in fact I have seen in this blog done dozens of times over and over… I think is also called debate… but it is not.
              I am wrong here: some items here are truly debated, some are just played out as a guessing -assuming game.
              I guess, this you assume that well, we may hit the nail on the head we may not…………………………[Nothing wrong with a good verbal banter for fun-for passing the time-for sheer joy of communicating]
              I have seen on some subject theories- notions brought up and Guessing pure guessing started what is was how it was going on for ages, an the end it was left sort of dwindled down to nothing YET one of the subject which come up mentioned over and over WAS THE REAL ITEM THE TRUE FACT!
              But not one of the guessers have recognised that item yet they have known the words but he has not experienced those realities therefore the REALITY remained unrecognised that information entered it was the fact
              Since I my ex was a Master Debater and I have learned from him that when ones enter into debate have your fact ready and before that have those facts completely entirely fully investigated- explored with that done that makes it undisputable unquestionable that they are solid unshakable so they will stand up in debate discussion When one puts the facts on the debaters table and put them fort nothing can move that.
              What is my point here? To KNOW WHAT IS OT on ABILITY ONE MUST HAVE EXPERIENCE.
              So I have confidence in that you are just GUESSING about what OT abilities are and yet those OT abilities capabilities what they REALLY ARE, have been written in this blog over and over and over and just skimmed over… not recognised accepted as the final outcome of the debate.
              This posting is not written to make you wrong, but to make you realise the difference.

            29. Elizabeth, a person does not have to first experience flying to be able to make the observation that a bird flies, or to be able to say that this is something he would like to be able to do. And he will never ever learn how to fly if he doesn’t begin the journey of looking for the answers. Part of that journey may be to know more about the journeys of others, part might be to find a new route.

              I realize that you have found a path that brought you to the ability to “fly”, but you make the claim that the path you took is the only path to that ability – and yet you do not have any way of knowing that. All you really can say is that you do not know of any other way, that you do not even know IF there is any other way or not – only that you BELIEVE there is no other. Saying more than that is pure assumption – unless you consider that you know all about every other path ever taken and all about any other path that could possibly be taken.

              From what I can understand you know your own experience and your own track, and parts of others’ experiences and track, but I don’t consider that you have reached a state of omniscience, a state of knowing all. And you have said so yourself, so you should be careful not to come across like you think you do know all.

            30. 🙂 hehehe 🙂 hehehe. “””” “the ability to postulate wavefields” – and through that ability be cause over MEST as an OT””””
              I think I just step into a cow flap that is shit to those of you who never seen cow flaps on the field 🙂
              the above statement from 2nd is not even good for a joke.

            31. E, the other thing is that when you too strongly invalidate someone else’s ideas about the road to truth, it will only make them less likely to consider your viewpoint. That, together with what I said before about coming across as thinking you know all, will only defeat your own good purpose of pointing out what you consider to be a valid path – since such communication will only tend to make them think you don’t really know what you claim to.

            32. You are right Marildi so many ways as alway…. BUT…… By the time one reaches that State that goal which is on the Great Chart: Native State, by than ONE HAD TO EXPLORE ALL THE AVENUES TO GET THERE. . It is imperative- vital to walk down on every avenue and finding those avenues thinking eureka I finally found the way out of this labyrinth- confusion-misunderstanding once and for all but only finding the avenues was not open the end =out of the MEST but a deceiving implant which wanted one to believe it was the true freedom one has attained but in fact that implant only lead one back to the MEST : one reached another dead ends .
              Those avenues on must explore do include every passible ideas, subjects which are considerations, believes agreements the human mind ever can conceive, comprehend, think of. If that not been done ONE do not reaches that Native state. On this I know am on expert of and I know I have not left out anything.. t I also know I don’t know everything what outside of the MEST Universe so don’t hit me on the head with that please: that. ”know it all” crap.
              Marildi, I picked up your energy flows: you really wanted to tell me off, well you have, your well hidden resentment surfaced that is fine: it had to happen sooner or later.. good for us… you seldom show your inner whatever.
              So when I read what other just guessing: yes that is their reality about OT state and by me not allow beingness for them on those subject that it is OK go on to believe such a bull I am doing them any favour? Am I really doing them favour I ask? Am I supporting those beings to achieve that Native state?

            33. Marildi:
              An actual OT is “not dependent on the universe around him”, and is “able to operate without dependency on things” (Tech Dictionary)
              🙂 good one. chalk up the winning mark for your self.

            34. An example of a “high ability to postulate” could be the ability to make it rain, or to stop the rain – which I happen to know is something you yourself have done. Any ability to interfere with and change the rules of MEST – or the universe of others, for that matter – would be a high ability to postulate.

            35. Marildi: PS: I also KNOW that each person DO have to walk down on those “self created avenues” and find out for self that they are only dead end.
              There is no other way….
              Why 2ndxmr hidding behind your skirt and speak for him self? Are we playing what here?

            36. 🙂 interesting, i just thought I wanted it to happen differently, have a different outcome, that is all, not thought of something extraordinery

            37. Eliz: “ONE HAD TO EXPLORE ALL THE AVENUES TO GET THERE.”

              Mar: That again, and most of your other comments in the above post, is simply your viewpoint, your belief, your assumption, because that happens to be the route that you have followed and found successful. You apply the LRH tech of flying ruds, which you give the credit to for being able to achieve what you have, even though that is only one small piece of tech and even though it may in fact be the most basic.

              However, I have the understanding that with the whole body of tech a being would be able to get to a point of being cause over the bank, the time track, and all the implants, without having to audit the countless numbers of incidents. And that is what some people consider the full LRH tech to be able to do. And others consider that there may be even more efficient and faster ways, and ways that would make a being even greater Cause over Existence than the whole Bridge as it stands, and they are looking for those ways. And again, I don’t believe that either you or anybody else has achieved a way to KNOW that there may or may not be a better way, in other words to be omniscient.

              You: “Marildi, I picked up your energy flows: you really wanted to tell me off, well you have, your well hidden resentment surfaced that is fine: it had to happen sooner or later.. good for us… you seldom show your inner whatever.”

              Me: I suppose “resentment” isn’t that bad a choice of words. Yes, I do resent that you sometimes put a wet blanket on the discussions, or you could call it a bad vibe that lowers the tone level and the desire to communicate. And also that you come across as “I know all” and if anyone expresses a different view, you repeatedly state in so many words that no other view than yours could possibly be right. This achieves nothing, or worse – it tends to make you look like you don’t really know what you’re talking about, even though you know a great deal about what you are talking about.

              You: “So when I read what other just guessing: yes that is their reality about OT state and by me not allow beingness for them on those subject that it is OK go on to believe such a bull I am doing them any favour? Am I really doing them favour I ask? Am I supporting those beings to achieve that Native state?”

              Me: I didn’t actually want to “tell you off”. I simply decided that for me (I’ll use your words here) “to allow beingness…to believe such a bull I am not doing them [you] any favour. Am I really doing them [you] a favour I ask? Am I supporting [you] to achieve” your very high purpose to help?

            38. yes you have achieved a lot by telling me your reality of how you see my view points.
              Tell me, show me, name those beings who have found the way out. tell me where I can read about their achievments.

            39. You right Marildi I should not be commenting in this blog… you are totaly right about that. My reality do dampen the the discussions, yes, I have noted that more than one occasio they end them. Sorry about that. But Do you know the reason for that? I do, but I am sure your reality is very different than mine.
              your reality exist because it is agreed upon, my not exist because there is no agreement on it… So again you are right, I should no be commenting here. Thank you… all you would have to do is ask, for heaven sake!

            40. It’s not your reality about auditing or the descriptions of your OT gains that dampen the discussions at times. It’s the reality you have that no one who has a different view than yours could possibly be right. And to make it worse, you express that reality in a way that is more invalidative than necessary to simply disagree, and thus you further defeat your own purposes. Probably the worst part is that it tends to make some people (not all) disbelieve all the actual truths you express, or perhaps stop even reading your posts. And this is really too bad.

            41. Marildi, DO explore the Universe for you self from end to end through auditing sessions: by confrontation.
              Or do any other way which you have talk of yet not explored so far, than, only than when you have done that we can discuss what is right and the wrongs: the ways one can achieve such, how one has achieved that goal and have that experience of intangible –Infinite.. But not until than we can exchange realities but when you have that, than your reality will have weight in my universe. Talk is cheap… do get experience and talk from that.
              THE END….

            42. Marildi I have few questions here please answer them. What are the reasons we are all posting-commenting in this Blog? What reason I have commenting here?
              List them please.
              Here is a good one: what is the reason some of the commenters find my reality so outrages and they feel so offended insulted by them?
              Maria earlier this week had a huge cognition [ 🙂 , I felt it Maria and thank you for sharing.] which has come out of me expressing my outrages- different reality. Because of that cognition Marias whole universe has changed, her new realities realigned her believes, it was phenomenal how much charge she has as-ised with one cognition.
              The thing is Maria is willing to look at different realities… because of that she is winning.
              I believe LRH said something to that affect some place that we all should take out what he writes-say, whatever is useful to us and discard the rest.
              PS don’t list yours, I know yours 🙂 unless you want to share it with others beside me.

            43. dear people!!! i been away reading, just finished the book.
              Now if you have a question please make it very simple since i do get lost in complicated thought patterns. By now you all know can ask anything… the last secret people dont know about me would be what is the colour of my unmentionables….so fire away… 🙂 lets have some fun, and pouting is not a good game condition, since its cuts-puts leaves the pouter out of the game…

            44. Eliz, as you can see from what I just posted I’m still kind of lost too without more info. Let’s see what 2x answers and then if I get it and you still don’t , I will do my best to re-phrase it in another way for you.

              (I like that no pouting idea – good one!)

            45. marildi, I understand my friend. It seems that you grant too much magic to the training routines. these are good communication drills but auditing has his roll here too. And in auditing you have the power of choice above any existance problems. I am a believer of the freedom to choose as the primary element to create and in doing so, to live. TRs, done badly against this power of choice, can become an element of conditioning and control towards the trainer like in the animals in a circus.

            46. Rafael, I agree with everything you said. However, my intention was try to come up with the most basic key – the place to start that would open the doors to all the other tools and knowledge needed to play the best possible game. Auditing (or its equivalent if there is one) would be another necessary and powerful tool, absolutely – but I would postulate that the ability to be there and communicate would in fact lead one to the discovery and use of that tool as well as all the other needed or valuable tools.

              Looking at it the other way around, however, I don’t believe that auditing or any other practical tech or concise piece of knowledge that I know of (in Scn or elsewhere) would be a place to start that would itself lead to other necessary tools, including the vital tool of communication and TRs – unless one happened to be able to discover or “reinvent the wheel of existence” that LRH discovered and its practical tools of application. But that is not probable, at least not for the vast majority of people.

              Basically, there is a body of knowledge and practice about life and existence which offers personal gain and gains that are distinct from the personal ones. And the most basic point of that pyramid of knowledge and practice seems to me would be communication with its practical drills of TRs – which would allow for everyting else to unfold. That’s my best shot at it. 😉

            47. marildi, you say: ” the most basic point of that pyramid of knowledge and practice, seems to me, would be communication with its practical drills of TRs – which would allow for everything else to unfold. ” .
              It is my opinion that the most basic point of such pyramid would be an honest CHARACTER and the education and drills leading to such condition, a kind of honesty TRs ( TWTH would be good as a reference for this ). To do it from the communication TRs would be a lower level handling of persons leading to a cynical personality as is seen in the current leaders of Scientology – good ” comm ” but no respect for the human dignity.

            48. Wow, Rafael, you make a really good point, which is basically to get ethics in first. I would have to agree! And now that I think about it, that would match the sequence of ethics-tech-admin, supporting your viewpoint beautifully as that is a valid sequence IMO.

              But on the subject of TRs, you’ve expressed at other times too your negative view about what they produce and I never really got where you are coming from on that. Why do you think TRs – in themselves – lead to a cynical personality? Is it because of your observations of people (like current Church leaders) who have done TRs and have such a personality? It would be llogical to jump to the conclusion that TRs was the reason for that just because of the fact that they had done TRs. And I don’t believe that correct TRs would even allow for a cynical attitude as that kind of ARC would be out-TRs, per my understanding of the principles invoved. My experience with the course was a good one. Wasn’t yours?

              But I would go for your idea of there being an ethics course of some kind as a prerequisite, or as the first part of the TRs course itself. Seems to me that plan would work pretty well as a basic key to it all. 🙂

            49. marildi, I have had huge wins and cognitions on CTP as regards the ARC and KRC, so I can understand much of your point on TRs. Yes marildi, it is my personal observation that TRs done alone without an ethics guide are as benefical to the person as an hipnotic conditioning, not just at executive level in Scn.

            50. Rafael, from my knowledge of the principles underlying TRs and my experience with correctly done TRs (on different flows), there is no relationship between those drills and conditioning (hypnotic or otherwise) or any reason they might lead to a cynical personality. You have only stated your opinions, which is fine, but you haven’t backed them up with how they directly relate to TRs. See what I’m asking?

            51. marildi, I feel we are having finally a good and scientifically oriented comm cycle- I will respect you and your religious beliefs but will not give up on my well grounded and informed opinions until scientific proof is presented.
              It is my personal opinion that the TRs can be a good tool up to a certain point marked by common sense. To go beyond that healthy point is to induce hipnotic rapport:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapport
              http://www.hypnosis101.com/wordpress/nlp/rapport/instant-rapport/
              As you know, any part of LRH tech can be abused as a tool of control or even as a hipnotic tool ( badly used ), this is not new news, even LRH stated it ( ref. book one ).
              As regards to the cynical personality, well, just give a look at the current ethics tech used by the ” church ” and emulated in the indie field. The cynical conditioning comes straight from the LRH biggest error – the 8 dynamics optimum solution formula, which states and is interpreted so as to allow any abuse in the name of the protection of the unchangeable LRH tech ( as stated in KSW # 1 ). So these basic fundamentals in the LRH tech hit the TRs tech ( which is part of it ).
              I have a good alegory for you as the sunday sermon:
              Two planes blast off towards Japan at the same time, identically powerful and magnificent both of them, but in this case one of them haves an slightly curved wing. This minor error will make the plane to land in china, not in Japan. This is the case with the optimum solution formula and ksw # 1 as the sligthly calculated errors of LRH.

            52. Rafael, I was also thinking we were having a “good and scientifically oriented comm cycle”. But may I point out that it doesn’t sound very scientific – i.e. having an open-minded skepticism – when you start off with the assumption that my views are “religious beliefs” while yours are “well-grounded and informed opinions”. Just wanted to tease you about that a bit 🙂 but kidding aside, I agree – the comm cycle does seem to be going along in a relatively rational and civilized way. Hurray for us!

              Maria already spoke superbly and scientifically to the unscientific point about TRs inducing a hypnotic rapport, and I was pleased to note that you did state this would happen only with an abuse of TRs – something that could happen with any good tool. Maria also spoke (and again scientifically so) to the subject of cynicism.

              But as for your point that the cynicism is a result of “LRH’s biggest error, the 8 dynamics optimum solution formula”, let me quote a couple paragraphs from the chapter “Ethics” in Marty’s book, What is Wrong with Scientology?:

              “…If one gives any one dynamic more value or influence than any other, the solution arrived at will be something other than what is optimum for the greatest number of dynamics. It more often than not would result in a solution that harmed more dynamics than it assisted.

              “Almost from the outset, the Scientology Inc. culture took for granted that since Scientology itself was the provider of the ultimate solution to survival across all dynamics, the organization – or group – that represents and forwards Scientology is more important than any other dynamic Thus, from the mid-‘60s to the present, the ‘3” [standing for 3rd dynamic] on the keyboard of the calculator of optimum solutions has been permanently held down (Scientology Inc. representing the third dynamic). This has skewed every optimum-solution calculation attempted by Scientologists since.”
              .

              The last sentence above, the key word being “skewed”, aligns perfectly with your Sunday sermon allegory – which was excellent, btw. I’m late in the day to acknowledge that because I wanted to write more in my reply and didn’t have time until now. So belatedly, I will say – Amen! 😉

            53. marildi, I agree with you on that the comm cycle does seem to be going along in a relatively rational and civilized way. You quote some paragraphs from the chapter “Ethics” in Marty’s book, What is Wrong with Scientology?, to me these look like a play of words, good sounding glib opinions of him. I am not as skeptic as it may seem, that is why I say ” I will respect you and your religious beliefs ” but it is not assuming all you say is religious belief. It is more assuming the concept of lets improve the LRH tech 🙂 , scientifically . amen !

            54. Hi Rafael. Well, I don’t see how that quote from Marty’s book is him being glib, or how there is any play on words there. But I will let Marty’s words speak for themselves. Note too that what he says in that brief excerpt is supported by other data he gives in the book. (You should read it if you haven’t.) And I get that the larger book he’s working on will include a lot more detail and support to what he says there as well as other things in this first book. We’ll see ;).

              Thanks for clarifying what you meant about my “religious beliefs”. And I agree with you on the concept of “let’s improve the LRH tech”. 🙂

            55. Marildi….. Bingo. I like that, but I never have played that game….
              Once upon the time the body was 27. Beautiful in every way… It was interesting because I did not know that than there is other beauty could exist outside of the body and other solid forms..
              So beautiful Elizabeth walked into a restaurant in Toronto, had on appointment to meet somebody and she was introduced to a man which caused the biggest whoosh ever in her life.. till than that is….that whoosh was returned… well, what can I say, from there downhill all the way… than much later after long chain of creations- events she experienced that whoosh but it was different and incomparable magnitude, but this time there was no human bodies present…..and she was aware being.. very different experiences.
              So whooshes can happen any time.
              These days I experience that when I look into the face of the flower, since flowers are mocked up by admiration for admiration.
              They contain nothing more but admiration…. Marildi, look one at close up… and experience….

            56. When I experience NATURE, what ever space i have vanishes, than i experience become one with nature… i become this incradible something… cant explain what is… but the energy flows of nature what brought them into existance that original postulate since postulate only can create if pure, than that creation is the high -ast form of energy can be experienced.

            57. Some ideas to consider, Rafael:

              Contrary to “popular” teachings on the Internet these days, the “command” value of NLP does not rely on either hypnosis or rapport. Amateurs of NLP and hypnosis just think it does. At its most compelling level, NLP is entirely intention based. It can be amplified by making use of already grooved in automaticities, habitual cultural behaviors and grooved in “personality” responses that can be triggered and once triggered, run like machinery. NLP works, when it does, because most people are not “master” of their own emotions and thinking. Events and inner states and conditions “happen to them” and they respond “automatically,” and this is the usual state of their existence. Not only are they open to commands and suggestions from another individual, they are open to random triggers in the environment. Consequently, they are at the absolute mercy of an individual with a high level of intention and will. Indeed, there is no need for rapport at all at the level of command.

              The TRs that work on that level of intention are TRs 6 to 9 and the Admin TRs. With that level of intention in full use the individual will obey simply because he/she can’t help it — there simply is not enough “mindfulness” to do anything other than to obey.

              Consider Elizabeth. She is quite capable of this level of command. IYet she doesn’t use it on others. I think that she doesn’t because at best it will bring about a temporary cessation. At worst it will enslave. It is mercy and love that stays her hand, mercy and love that comes from a total knowing and connection well beyond the simple constraints of the communication formula. She says: “I am what you are.” This is true. Ask her show you this. She can do that. But it will not be lasting for you, for she cannot do for you what you need to do for yourself.

              IMO the source of cynicism isn’t the training routines or even anything LRH ever said or wrote. The source of cynicism is ARC breaks i.e. the loss of connection, the loss of receptivity, the loss of rapport, the loss of the love of man, including the love of oneself. The expression of cynicism is simply a reflection of that loss.

              These urban definitions of trance, receptivity, rapport, hypnotism and so on often get confused with the states of concentration, absorption and receptivity. Any communication (good, bad or indifferent) requires a state of receptivity. Without receptivity no communication is possible. All learning requires receptivity. Every day we take suggestions from others and respond to them!

              The “father” of these concepts of rapport/hypnosis was Braid who narrowed his definition of hypnosis to other induced states of receptivity in which an individual DOES NOT RECOLLECT what happened. i.e. mindfulness has been completely suppressed.

              The rest of it can be defined as varying states of consciousness that can be identified by responsiveness and ability, such as imaginative faculties, memory, response time to real-time events in life, emotional states, concentration, persistence, and so on.

              “Mindfulness,” which could be restated is “being there in present time” is the antidote to automaticity and being “at the mercy” of another or a particular environmental trigger. My experience has been that mindfulness enhances connection, receptivity, rapport, love, discernment and wisdom and these are elements that people desperately crave with every breath they take.

              Perhaps all this is what this saying refers to: Lord, have mercy.

              And that concludes my Sunday sermon. 🙂

            58. Maria, thank you very much for your ideas to consider. I liked particularly the one stating :
              ” These urban definitions of trance, receptivity, rapport, hypnotism and so on often get confused with the states of concentration, absorption and receptivity. Any communication (good, bad or indifferent) requires a state of receptivity. Without receptivity no communication is possible. All learning requires receptivity. Every day we take suggestions from others and respond to them! ”
              I did not knew about James Braid´s work, but googled the name and found this interesting link explaining his work:
              http://books.google.com.mx/books?id=Vs35STwQYQoC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=braid+rapport&source=bl&ots=Dl01iKGQzL&sig=hUKVW-3-3Me6osmE-f7GniGm4MA&sa=X&ei=nCIxUMPOFoK82wXLyICYDA&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=braid%20rapport&f=false.
              In fact I am not refering to NPL but to LRH´s descriptions on rapport as an animal magnetism somewhere in one of his HCOBs, you know, a person is pinched and someone else develops the mark in the skin for such pinch. The co-ordinated movement of animal crowds is one interesting manifestation on this.
              Elizabeth says: I am what you are but I say you are a mirror of myself, amazing similarity in my view.
              About intention and TRs, it is my opinion that these drills have their natural limits and going beyond that is just arrogance. For me the intention is developed with the familiarity on each particular human activity. About mindfulness, it is an item of my interest and would appreciate any tool assisting this ( LRH auditing included ).

          2. Marildi:” “My understanding now is that in auditing the two discharge against one another and thus the energy of both dissipates and is gone forever – as-is’ed.” Hold it right there!! The PC is confronting his item… He as-is that and nothing more. He can’t as-is anything else. While he is in the session there is nothing in his universe but him confronting that Item.
            If in his session there is another terminal let’s say his adversary whose neck he just cut, his still only as- is his charge on the case but not the other persons. There is no ‘’two discharge against one another” he is only doing the confronting and the dead guy will confront his overt some other time when he gets around being audited or in solo session.
            Please explain where did you get that reality? Marildi if that would be true one could not solo audit, could one?

            1. You are right! I stand corrected. I should have said that with lower level pcs an acknowledgement is required in order to as-is since the pc isn’t yet up to as-is’ing on his own, without the auditors ack – because of the fact that he considers himself to be part of the laws of the physical universe (this is according to the “Magic of Communication” bulletin). But yes, the factual duplication by the pc himself is what creates an as-isness.

              I actually wanted to make the point again (as I did in an earlier comment) that an ack can be valuable and can greatly assist the pc (or person in life) to as-is, due to the fact that when he receives the ack and views it (or “sees” it) as a duplication of his itsa – in so viewing he is in fact duplicating his own itsa and the mechanism of the two duplicate thoughts discharging against one another occurs, thus creating an as-isness.

            2. Marildi:” “My understanding now is that in auditing the two discharge against one another and thus the energy of both dissipates and is gone forever – as-is’ed.” Hold it right there!! The PC is confronting his item… He as-is that and nothing more. He can’t as-is anything else. While he is in the session there is nothing in his universe but him confronting that Item.
              If in his session there is another terminal let’s say his adversary whose neck he just cut, his still only as- is his charge on the case but not the other persons. There is no ‘’two discharge against one another” he is only doing the confronting and the dead guy will confront his overt some other time when he gets around being audited or in solo session.
              Please explain where did you get that reality? Marildi if that would be true one could not solo audit, could one?
              Marildi, “two duplicate thoughts discharging against one another occur, thus creating an as-isness.” No such a thing as two duplicate thoughts discharging against one another. The as-ising is The first time the PC sees his creation in new unit of time not as it has been, but in the “NOW” by doing it-confronting it as-is because there are no lies –falsehood connected to that item-energy. No one goes nowhere on the track… that is just a concept a creation that we move on the track or go back in time…
              Can’t be done since that do not exist. We only have the “NOW” there is no past or future… that is a concept but not real, a illusion. But in auditing used “ go back in time, when was it “ etc.. because we have believed in such.

            1. Actually, TR 2 and TR 4 are distinguished from each other in their exact definitions. But I think I know what you mean – sometimes a TR 2 can require more than just a short “Thank you” or “Very good”etc, in order to effectively do the job of acknowledgement.

            2. p.s. And yes – an ack is VERY important. It can make the difference between highly successful communication and disaster.

            3. Yes, Rafael – I completely agree! Sometimes I think TR 2 is the most important and most powerful of all of them.

      2. No Marildi — I am not ignoring you. Today just happens to be a day for lots of visitors so I’ll catch up with you later.

        1. Dearest Maria: Yes I have investigated= had many sessions about help or not to help others in general, how to erase take away the bank=their agony etc… and what I have found out If I would do that that act would be the greatest crime I ever committed in the existence of this Universe.
          By helping I would be taking the opportunity away for others to discover that self has to step out of being effect and to embark finally from that enslaving condition which is called MEST Universe those believes in general.
          To help other is not a kind thing because as you know it takes away those persons determinism. Helping others is not a good Samaritan act.. [ in some cases, very few yes it works, since help can motivate also]
          I have a sister who has become the same year as I in 76 full OT7 and after that she never touched scientology-tech again, but she has attacked me over and over for doing that, my life style, my sessions, how I speak English [hers is better than mine] how I dressed, and lived in general she had problem with.
          Every time had seen her after that I had to get into sessions to erase all the stimulation, since 76 I have had dozens –dozens of sessions because of our turbulent interaction toward each other.
          I was having the sessions and she was getting keyed out more and more. But her attacks become stronger so I had more sessions and great cognitions.
          Than Ava said one day I just had this cognition and she has repeated mine word by word. I did not comprehend in full what was happening and Ava did not have one session since 76 so how could that be?. I continued with my sessions over our relationship and of course she had cognitions the same time as I had, the same wording.
          Of course I realised by that time what was happening. I also realised that she had cognitions but no reality to what they were connected to She did say ” I don’t understand why I am having them”. I realized Knowledge without experience it useless in the long l run..
          I wanted to explain to her what was happening, how it worked but she would not listen she said I was just jealous of her because she KNOWS!
          She has decided she know more than I do. We are not in communication since she still has believes that I am jealous of her, and because of that just a pitiful being and that proves that soloing did not work. One interesting remark she made ” Elizabeth you are in bad shape because you need sessions and I have this cognitions, only show nothing wrong with me!”
          This is on example what happens when interfering with others universe and that takes away lots of mass, By the way she has keyed out and powerful, she believes because she knows the words she has reached the total enlightenment. Yet she continues with the same practises as she had before, having affairs outside of her marriage and other very very low tone activities.
          Maria, I have noted how my thoughts influence takes over others universe: They think-say what I think… but only till they are in my space, than back they go into their own level.
          For that reason I have removed myself intentionally from the society in general, I have become a total recluse and I realized after Marildi’s blow up that I don’t belong here, commenting here. This Blog is Marildi’s turf she runs it for Geir. I am needed here in this blog to comment but not wanted, there is a big difference in those two concepts..
          But I am only recluse avoiding human contact here since I am home where others too welcome one, same as I “I am what you are”.
          Be well and do well. If you care to contact me, you know how to.

          1. And yet, for all that, I celebrate and all the worlds celebrate.

            Beloved Elizabeth. Thank you.

            1. Maria: thank you…lovely gift
              It has taken me a long time, after many sessions before I become aware that in every sessions those who were involved in it regardless when or where that incident may have been: when I have erased the incident all the connecting treads with those beings were erased also.. They too have become free of the entanglement….
              That reality really driven the factor into place that when is audited or in solo sessions, with that action one audits =clears the Universe itself. That IS the VALUE of the TECH.

            2. 🙂 yes, the Universe do celebrate stopping and starting of the reversing- withdrawing of the Black Tide: to accomplish that oddly only needed one person to crossover and after that many has fallowed. All for one and one for all. 🙂 But you must understand there is no glory-credit in such on action, not even humbleness, just one knows that it IS.

      3. Mar: “I was actually moving forward from there to another aspect of an ack – the specific mechanics of the energy involved.”

        The mechanic that I see in the communication cycle revolves around the flow: PC inflows the auditing question, PC outflows an answer. If the auditor did not acknowlege the answer the PC may not feel the cycle has ended and may feel a need to continue the flow. This could leave the PC feeling stuck at that point to some degree. If an entire process was conducted this way – with the auditor never acknowledging – it is quite likely that all the unacked flows (from all the points the PC found an answer to the auditing question) would come in on the PC and stick him in the mass. As well, the unacked comm flow may create an answer hunger that would pull in something else entirely from the bank. So, overall, the ack would keep the flows balanced and allow the PC to answer each auditing question in a new unit of time.

        A solo auditor would have to acknowledge him(her)self for exactly the same reason. You could conceive the solo auditor as wearing two hats, PC and auditor, and you could – as a solo auditor – get to a point where your certainty is so strong that the ack is literally not needed because there is no answer hunger; you know you got the charge and you don’t need any other knowingness confirming that you got it. I’d hazard a guess that’s where Elizabeth is coming from.

        1. 2ndxmr: here you go, “”A solo auditor would have to acknowledge him(her)self for exactly the same reason. You could conceive the solo auditor as wearing two hats, PC and auditor, and you could – as a solo auditor – get to a point where your certainty is so strong that the ack is literally not needed because there is no answer hunger; you know you got the charge and you don’t need any other knowingness confirming that you got it. I’d hazard a guess that’s where Elizabeth is coming from.”‘

          You are right at the start as one solo audits one wears to hats. That is tought in the Solo course and how to handle the emeter and the one handed can.
          After a while the certainty is just there, one just know, the ack is not needed or wanted, it becomes meaningless. Also the emeter become usless, one just know what has charge on.
          But by that time I have reached that state I have audited tens of thousands of hours…
          In session I have explored all the avenues and searched out all the reasons-believes the causes why ” we do not know” what are those reasons we dont have knowledge, forgotten etc.. It is a huge interlocking subject holding thousands of different considerations-agreement, assumtion.
          But of course one also has to have sessions on the other side of the coin, which is most interesting of course: ALL the times need to be recalled handled by confrontation when we really new it all… and to find the cause of giving it all up… Intriging subjects….

        2. 2x, thanks for your input. I agree with all you say and I think it is at least part of what Elizabeth was saying too – and also the same as what is described in Dn 55. One of the things LRH states is that “answer hunger” comes about as a result of the cycle of communication not being completed with an ack (an “answer”), and that the originated communication then “floats” in time and tends to pull in answers. Not to say that any of that or any other part of Dn 55 isn’t absolutely the way it is, but I was interested in exactly how and why such things occur. Your point about “balanced flows” answers to question to some degree.

          But it never quite did it for me to simply say, as you (and all of us) have put it, that the pc doesn’t “feel the cycle has ended”. And the idea that it is some kind of analytical consideration on the pc’s part that his comm wasn’t adequately acknowledged doesn’t really make sense when you consider that the pc – or person in life – isn’t necessarily even aware of acknowledgment as being the problem.

          I’ve been thinking about this magic of acknowledgements for awhile (as you will recall :)) and already figured that it had to be a matter of the physics principles involved, since communication is all about energy. But Ididn’t know exactly how that would be. Now I think I do! Did you follow my comments about that in this thread and if so – did you duplicate? 😉

          Also, I got what you said about solo auditors and have no disagreement. I can’t help but think, however, that even without an apparent “ack”, the same mechanism occurs, i.e. the energy of the auditing item has been duplicated – literally, a copy of it has been made, and that duplicate copy together with the original creation discharge against one another. What do you think?

          Now, blowing by inspection may be a different phenomenon but would still come down to certain mechanics, I would imagine. One explanation could be that, per SOS, a greater amount of theta would convert a lesser amount of entheta into theta. I admittedly don’t know much about physics, but I can guess that the larger quantity transforms the smaller amount simply by superior power or force – force of personality, we could call it. 🙂

          1. for what i am reading ; your comments, you have not duplicated the steps of communication…. i dont realy care to comment on this subject any more…. for what?

          2. As usual you pose the toughest posers! Allow me to go into the parental valence for a moment as little Jenny asks “Why, daddy?” and dumbfounded daddy has to reply “Because it just is.”

            Perhaps daddy was trying to say that the answer to the “Why?” lies in the Axioms and because it is axiomatic, “it just is.”

            Fun and fencing aside I will defer to my original answer that it comes down to the balancing of flows, and to extend that in terms of physics, if you don’t dam the flow you damn the flower.

            OK, really putting the fun to the side, and looking at your hypothesis that “the energy of the auditing item has been duplicated – literally, a copy of it has been made, and that duplicate copy together with the original creation discharge against one another”, consider:

            1) not every answer the PC comes up with causes a discharge in the PC’s bank, so the mechanism you’re hypothesizing doesn’t always apply

            2) making a duplicate of the charge will blow the charge. The ack mechanism keeps the PC from re-creating the charge (pulling it back in by the flow mechanism of by answer hunger or the inval of the no-ack.)

            1. 2x, your reply was definitely a lot of fun. Love your wit and humor. As usual! 🙂

              But fun aside and back to the fencing. Yes of course the mechanism doesn’t always apply and “not every answer the PC comes up with causes a discharge in the PC’s bank” – I wasn’t actually saying that. It would only be at the point where the answer (or combination of answers) has ultimately created a perfect duplicate – which would be the point where the pc has now viewed the item thoroughly.

              It normally takes running the process long enough, with multiple answers being given, for the pc to increasingly “see” (duplicate) what is there until the whole of it is duplicated. But I’ll add to my theory and say that (at least with some upper level or high-theta pc’s) there may come a point in the process (or rudiment) where the juxtaposition of the pc’s own theta flow (his theta), in his looking at the item, is enough to blow what remains of it (just like what occurs with blowing by inspection, except there the blow is done immediately upon the question being delivered). Ordinarily, however, it takes the pc running the process long enough to gradually duplicate the item until the perfect duplication of it finally occurs.

              You end your comment with “The ack mechanism keeps the PC from re-creating the charge (pulling it back in by the flow mechanism of answer hunger or the inval of the no-ack)”. And I ask, “But why, Daddy? 😦

              😀

            2. In Dianetics, the purposes of the auditor include a) locating an incident the pc CAN successfully re-create, confront and discharge b) creating a safe space for the pc so he can take his attention off present time to fully create/view the incident c) repeating the commands until the full end phenomena takes place, which is full erasure, d) keeping the focus on the narrow confines of the incident being viewed until that happens e) Repeating all of this until the pc has no further need of Dianetics, i.e. he/she is a well and happy human being or clear.

              Throughout the entire series of Dianetics auditing, the pc is gaining the ability to do a) to e) on a more and more independent basis, in effect, drilling the processes and getting good at them.

              Without the strict application of the communication formula, the safety factor is gone, distractions enter in, prediction goes out the window, the focus wanders and the pc doesn’t succeed in fulling addressing the incident. Instead of successfully creating and discharging the incident, he/she is overwhelmed by the incident, the auditor, or by sweeping in too much to address all at once. There goes the confidence, there goes the safety, there goes any possibility of discharging anything.

              Acknowledgments are used throughout to signal that a particular sequence has been completed and to reassure the pc that the auditor is still there and responding.

              I can well recall becoming fully involved in many a Dianetic incident such that the incident became more real than present time, and then “surfacing” to find my auditor waiting for me to return, and acknowledging my accomplishment upon my return. I thought of it as deep sea diving. I trusted my auditor to be there and to keep me safe — he/she was my life-line as I plunged into the depths of the Mariana trench.

              After many hours, I didn’t really need the auditor, for I could manage my own track very nicely, stay on track,not lose focus, not get lost, know when I was done, etc. i.e. My ability to focus was VASTLY increased. And of course, the ability to stay focused and thoroughly and completely run incidents is what is necessary to be able to solo-audit. By the time one gets to that point, an auditor responds too slowly and actually becomes a distraction — solo auditing becomes a necessity at that point and in many cases, Dianetics will no longer serve as a set of processes.

              As far as acknowledgments pinning a being to the creation of the MEST universe. Yes. They do. Of course they do. And so long as one wants to participate in this time-space continuum, they are pretty much a necessity in symbolic/language physical communications. Of course, all of the auditing processes work with this time-space continuum anyway, I haven’t seen any processes that do not in some way work with this time-space continuum. After all, that is what is being addressed!

            3. Wow, Maria, great post! You eloquently brought back to mind the following paragraph in Dn 55, which from my perspective makes every viewpoint expressed in the exchange right:

              “Basically, all things are considerations. We CONSIDER that things are and so they ARE. The idea is always senior to the mechanics of energy, space, time, mass. It would be possible to have entirely different ideas about communication than these. However, these happen to be the ideas of communication which are in common in this universe and which are utilized by the life units of this universe. Here we have the basic ‘agreement’ upon the subject of communication in the Communication Formula, as given above. Because ideas are senior to this, an awareness of awareness unit can get (in addition to the communication Formula) a peculiar idea concerning just exactly how communication should be conducted and, if this is not generally ‘agreed-upon’, can find himself definitely ‘out of communication’”. (Dn 55, Chapter Seven, “Communication”)

            4. Maria, thanks, well said and you also said “re-create” that is what happens in session not “re-calling” the incident. In session one creates, as in “NOW” in new unit of time since the theta is not moving, the intengible hold no particles and only those can move… I think this part is not possible to understand if not experienced, because lack of auditing experience only having theory not working very well that is the reason there is confusion for example: interiorzation or going exterior for the being.
              Since that is impossible, only those are considerations “BEING INSIDE OR BEING OUTSIDE. or being enywhere. Maria, yes, the under water was a good example.
              Have a lovely day my Dear…be well…

  15. Marildi, “thank you. fine, good, Ok if nothing else attached to those words anithing which would imply that persont means more than acks… than one just ends the communication with that intention: OK.or thank you. What do you want blood? if you believe i am wrong that is fine with me.. just say it. it wont be the first time i being told i am off the wall and wont be the last either.

    1. E, to clarify, let me summarize the whole thing if I can. You and I have been talking about two types of ack. The first is the one that simply indicates a communication has been heard and understood – i.e. that it was received. It is used in session and in life too. My interest in that one had to do with how and why it helps a pc or anyone as-is some item or thought, and the mechanics involved.

      Yes, the person himself does the as-ising but it helps him do it, and the reason for that per LRH (and explained by Jim in his post) has to do with the mechanics. The way I see it now (as described in my reply to Maria, if you want to look at that again) is that because of the mechanics which occur as a result of a simple ack, the pc (or person in life) is assisted to as-is – i.e. it enables that person to make a duplicate of his own thought or item. Perfect duplication = as-isness. You described the same phenomenon, just in different words.

      I also expressed an interest in the second type of ack – which to be clear should actually be called an evaluation because even the positive kind go beyond a simple ack and are really evaluations. In your blog post on acknowledgements, you called this type an “appraisal”, which means the same thing as evaluation, and you were also talking about the positive kind. I agreed that even that type can have a bad effect – and I say “can” because I’m not convinced that it always does. This would be a good topic for discussion, as I said before.

      Rafael brought up a third thing – the point about a negative type of evaluation, which is actually an invalidation. So in a discussion, to be clear we could differentiate all 3 of these by referring to them as (1) acks, (2) evaluations, and (3)invalidations. The third type is also a topic that has been discussed on this blog before – i.e. whether it is a helpful thing or not to let someone know their outpoints, so to speak. This is the third thing that would be a valuable topic to take up, IMO.

      (I’ll be away from my computer parts of the day but will get back to it when I can.)

  16. Marildi: “‘ My interest in that one had to do with how and why it helps a pc or anyone as-is some item or thought, and the mechanics involved. “”
    Ack. do not help the PC as-is anything.. the ack simply acts as on acknowledgement what the PC has done, finnishe that cycle. When that happens the session can move on continue with a new topic on or it has been over… Ack is just that, no more no less.

  17. Rafael;
    You see I am a strong believer that miracles, conjuring items out of the so called nothing, do happen, can be done when one reaches a state where all obstacles cleared away—as-ised in session, since I have recalled many incident where I seeing and have caused those.
    Here is one for your Sunday afternoon entertainment: I was plowing the field But front of the plow there were no one to pull but I could just push the big blow and the dark rich soil was turning out. I felt thirst and in that same instance an orange like fruit was in my hand and inhaled its rich fragrance I bit into it, and it’s cool sweet juice satisfied the desire, the need. But fear taken over and I looked around to see if there was a witness to the miracle because I knew deeply that miracles were not allowed and anyone who caused one would be punished.. My fear was so deep that I caused myself to become invisible by leaving blowing from there in order not to be found and to be punished…..
    I know that miracles are all around us and are experienced daily by every person, but not recognized as such….
    PS; I have not cleared away all those obstacles yet…. but i am working on it..!

        1. Just dropping in to comment that I love everyone’s comments. My personal miracle experience is finding Elizabeth, thanks love…. 🙂

    1. Elizabeth,

      E.H.: “What is my point here? To KNOW WHAT IS OT on ABILITY ONE MUST HAVE EXPERIENCE.
      So I have confidence in that you are just GUESSING about what OT abilities are and yet those OT abilities capabilities what they REALLY ARE, have been written in this blog over and over and over and just skimmed over… not recognised accepted as the final outcome of the debate.”

      With this statement you are implying that you are OT because you know what OT abilities “REALLY ARE” and “To KNOW WHAT IS OT on ABILITY ONE MUST HAVE EXPERIENCE.”

      You also said: “Since I my ex was a Master Debater and I have learned from him that when ones enter into debate have your fact ready and before that have those facts completely entirely fully investigated- explored with that done that makes it undisputable unquestionable that they are solid unshakable so they will stand up in debate discussion When one puts the facts on the debaters table and put them fort nothing can move that.”

      On the one hand you want it accepted as a fact that you are indeed OT and you are making the argument that if one wants to speculate (debate to you?) on the abilities of OT, one should have the facts “completely entirely fully investigated…”

      Then, in the above comment you say: “You see I am a strong believer that miracles, conjuring items out of the so called nothing, do happen,…”

      So here you are just a BELIEVER, a speculator as the rest of us are, not a real OT with the OT ability to “conjur[e] items out of the so called nothing”. If you are to be held to the same standard you are setting for others then you have entered a debatable point but not with “facts completely entirely fully investigated”. You admit that you cannot conjure items which means that you know nothing more about being cause over MEST than anyone else and yet you earlier proclaim that you KNOW what it is to be OT and how an OT should or shouldn’t handle, or shouldn’t be concerned with MEST.

      You can’t have it both ways: you can’t try and nullify others’ reasoned speculations by saying the subject can’t be speculated on (debated) without experience – which you imply you have – and then say you believe in miracles (essentially the subject speculated on) and admit you don’t have the ability (the expertise, the knowledge, the OTness, the right – by your own logic – to debate).

      I will grant that you DO have every right to speculate, comment on, discuss, contribute to and debate the subject of OT, just as anyone else has the right to do. However, you do not have the right to put others down for their speculations, or be condescending, or imply that you have knowledge that cannot be had except by spending ten thousand intensives flying ruds. There are other ways to gain knowledge of the path – training and the auditing of others being significantly high on the list.

      You may take this as an attack on your lack of consistency in your reasoning and argument. It is that. It is not an ad hominem attack. I’ve said it before: I’d value your real, positive contribution. I do have more than a conceptual understanding of no-time and no-space but as long as we spend more time at a keyboard than in that other state we’ve got reason to discuss the two, how we got there and how we can deal with it. Constructively.

      1. It seems to me that this discussion becomes difficult to pursue with any intelligence because the term OT is ambiguous.

        What is an OT?

        What exactly does an Operating Thetan do?

        How do you know that one is an OT?

        Is an OT only that individual that can manifest objects perceivable by others in a way that is clearly out of context and/or “normal” causation? i.e. Manifesting a bouquet of roses out of thin air, for example to the gasps of all who see this happen?

        Is an OT an individual that is no longer reliant on the space-time continuum of energy flows and mechanics, yet still is aware and creative? Would that OT then be operating in the space-time continuum at all?

        Is an OT an individual that assumes command and causation of all life and material forms in all space-time continuums, shifting manifestation to the OT’s preferred qualities and quantities?

        Is an OT an individual at all?

        1. @ Maria
          All good questions perhaps again desrving a new thread but in the context of my post, diversionary. Let’s address the key point: should someone who claims OT abilities also be claiming that no one who hasn’t walked an extensive, meandering path (a ten thousand intensive path) should or could possibly speculate on OT abilities or a path that might take OTs beyond the preOT level of OT VIII?

          That is the primary point.

          1. This what I have writen is NOT A MOCK UP A STRORY BUT A REAL EXPERIENCE IN THE MOMENT AS IT WAS WRITEN, REGAINED ABILITY THROUGH AWARNESS,the body is only a insrument and nothing more, used in order to write, conway communication, since the real communication is not recognized-believed any more, it need to be solid;

            I do understand dry heat is better seem less hot? here we had 2 days of 100 and 103 but at night it goes down to mid 50′s.
            Chris the body has probles with heat like that, as for my self I have no problem i can tour the Earthquake fault or dive into to the middle of the sun and nothing happens.
            By the way there is two things happening which might interest you: at one point on the Earthquake fault at the California coast there is a unusual activity the lave is flowing out of the fault at one point, makes a blister like bubble, of course that is new to the fault, it seems there is lot of power boiling there I would call that anger and that growing out flow causes great pressure to its surrounding.
            The suns energy flow is interesting because it has very different energy flows than Earth of course, imagine two funnels the narrow points touching at the center, not quite, in fact by earthly measurements would be huge distance there, and in-between there is of course the molten lava which is boiling with fury now that substance is continually created by pulling in the particles which can’t be dictated by the telescope or seen by eyes and those particles are fused together into the molten stuff. What is interesting that the melting is caused by the friction so it is not difficult to imagine just how much violence there is in the movements ?
            Now the funnels are the forces which are moving opposite direction and pulling the sun apart, simply they wrenching the sun, in fact I can detect there will be two suns in the future. Of course I have no idea of time how long that will take to happen, since there is no time exist in cosmos.

            Reply

          2. Point taken. I just have my own pet peeve on ambiguous definitions!

            On speculation: I would say that anyone can speculate. I think we all speculate. A lot! From my point of view, most, if not all, of our theoretical sciences are speculation based whenever explanation is offered. As an example, sciences that study found objects (such as bones and artifacts) is speculative and a “best-guess” or “best explanation.” That being said, having gone down the rabbit hole many times myself, I am no longer certain that our sciences, based on logic alone, are descriptive of reality but are extremely useful in narrowed or constrained contexts and relationships. i.e. classical physics works just great to get us to the moon and so on, but is found to be lacking in the light of quantum physics and even more lacking when “life” enters the picture even as a simplified observer. it always seems to end up with the question of just what is the prime mover, moved or unmoved. i.e. what caused the big bang? Or is the big bang simply speculation, good enough for now as an explanation?

            Perhaps this is what Elizabeth speaks of when she speaks of speculation versus experience.
            However, I’ll let Elizabeth respond to your questions since I can’t answer on her behalf.

            Sorry to jump in!

            1. Woops. My last post is addressed to 2ndxmr — I see Elizabeth framed an answer while I was writing my post!

            2. Maria you are the first to know:
              Just had a cognition about magic: Cognition is a magic itself, because it appeared out of nowhere, It is born out of the ashes of the MEST universe, It has no structure-mass Yet it has quality, value beyond all considerations which holds MEST in place as importance. And this magic it self which transfers.

            3. Maria, you can explain what I cant, and I thank you for that.. I dont have your knowledge… And what you explained above is perfect.. But I will add few magical moment bit, and i want to let 2ndx, know I do know what is magic, but there are more to it. The magic moment is the creation in NOW and experienced at the same instance.

            4. Just a quick note, Elizabeth as I’m busy working. I do appreciate these stories. Thank you. More later…

            5. Stories defined in the dictionary as an account something, narrated item: real or fictional untrue. Mine are ‘’real’’’ both of them.
              With those two items I demonstrated TWO different “abilities” First one: one can be anywhere, see-experience anything in the MEST Universe as is in that moment.
              The second one is the ability to create in new unit of time separated, not influenced, not the continuality of anything ever been created before.
              Both of them exist in the Universe; one is as experienced by the so “called” thetan in the solid universe, seeing the MEST-solid moving forms without the EYES. The second is created totally in the so CALLED spiritual Universe and that never will be solid. Yet it will exist in the readers universe as how they perceive that narration.
              Both are real, but they can’t be proved and have agreement on them, but that do not mean much is it? Just how much sciences assume without proof yet they have agreement on it. Why?
              They make a very good living and it is a good game… that game contains concepts like: important, educated, knowing, above all, privileged information …. I never saw so much snobbery in any other field than among the educated-educators.
              [PS: this is a generalization, so dont get hang up on the words please.]

            6. 2ndx. ABOUT THE 10000 in intensives: Just because you have no reality and agreement from others therefore being believed it was or can be done: that do not mean it has can’t be done or have been done in one person’s life time, who wanted something so much that was willing to give up everything in order to achieve that goal.
              The SECOND THING: I have was not written in the amount of hours I have soloed to Brag, boast, swagger, show off, be praised to be celebrated, given a round of applause and to be written ode about. Those are just items-considerations every one of them and they can be handled in session.
              My amount of time and what I have done this life was written to show everybody that it can be done, yes the MEST can be erased in one’s life time.
              NOW, I NEVER EVER THOUGHT THAT IT WOULD CAUSE SO MUCH “””UNBELIEVING, DOUBTING, BEING PUT DOWN, CALLED A LIER a FAKE, BOGUS ETC….ETC…. Being laughed, snickered sneered at. BUT Guess what old body: I am thrilled to know end that it has… all those negative considerations poured into my universe they were ammunitions, items to solo on so I have chalk up few more intensives. THE LAUGH IS on you people.
              My problem is that by erasing the MEST I have forgotten, have no reality how narrow minded the humans generally are.
              YOU SEE: WE ALL JUDGES FROM REALITY WERE WE ARE AT. There is no other way.
              WHY I AM STILL HERE IN THIS BLOG AFTER MARILDI MADE IT LOUD AND CLEAR THAT MY PRESENSE IS NOT WELCOME HERE: simple I don’t want to leave MU’s all over cluttering the pages and peoples mind.
              I do not need to defend myself since there is nothing needed to be defended. But I will not walk away which it would look to bloggers I was defeated
              YES, I have erased the MEST, yes I have attained whatever you believe is none existent, impassible to achieve, I don’t give a hoot that you people don’t believe in because you don’t it is none existent for you!

            7. No Elizabeth, I have not made it “LOUD AND CLEAR” that your presence is not wanted here. If you want to talke about falshoods – that is the falsehood. What I have said repeatedly is that it isn’t okay for you to invalidate others with your assumption that only your ideas have truth to them and any other idea that differs from yours couldn’t possibly be true too.

              The point isn’t whether or not you have or haven’t found the “real answer” – it is that you yourself, while putting others down for speculating, are also SPECULATING when you say that no one but you has found the answer and that no one would ever be able to find that same answer except by the path you have taken. You have no way of knowing that and THAT is the point you keep missing.

              In addition, although you have achieved a tremendous amount and no one has denied that, it is also SPECULATION for you or anybody else to assume that your particular route will take a person (any person) as far it is possible to go – or to assume that someone else’s route couldn’t do exactly that. Or even that it hasn’t been done already by someone somewhere at some time. Maria already made the additional point that it shouldn’t be assumed that everyone even wants to arrive where you have arrived. I have said more than once that not everybody wants to be out of the physical universe.

              All of the above is why it is important to allow others to find their own route and not attempt to discourage them from doing so by belittling their efforts and invalidating them. It’s fine for you or anybody to put in their 2 cents in an effort to sort things out together – which is the purpose of discussion. But if a person starts with the assumption that he/she already knows all the answers then that person isn’t there for the purpose of discussion but just to assert their own rightness and try to use words to force others accept it

          3. 2ndxmr A bit of magic created as it was written this is not fiction!!!!!
            The gathering for magical breakfast in “nowhere”.

            I set in the hut and wondered what I should have. In front of me there was a round table and three chairs. Nothing fancy just on old wooden thing.

            The need to eat was not present but I knew the meaning of food. I wanted magic!!!!!!!!!

            I did mock-up a bowl full with heavy cream. There were no cows about, but that is beside the point. After all an OT can mock-up anything, a bowl of cream at any time. An OT would not be an OT without such an important ability. I am sure you agree to that!

            I did not have to wait long. From the chair to my left popped up a little tongue tip testing the air. She pushed herself up on the table and in greeting twice she bobbed her head up and down She was a small snake, her scales were shimmering ruby red and green around her eyes and deep yellow around her mouth. I too smiled at her. She started to lap into the cream. Within few minutes her whole family showed up and happily slurping they breakfast.

            A cat appeared behind them and with gleams in his yellow eyes he reached over the snakes and snatched the bowl of cream away. I was waiting for this. The chase begun: Four snake against one cat. They were flying the ruby bodies throughout the air like arrows.

            The cat was dodging left and right to avoid the collision while holding the bowl up above his head at all the time.

            Than the cat stumble over one snake that had stretched out his body low as the cat was flying across the room.

            For a moment stillness held all in space even the sparkles held back their glint, the bowl of cream too remained suspended in the air, not one drop spilling.

            The cat lay flat on the floor and above him grinning down the four sparkling ruby ribbons in suspended, were held up by their own will .

            The cat lifted his sprawling body of the floor picked the bowl out of the air and with mischievous smile he winked at me and placed the bowl into the center of the table.

            By then, the sparkling shimmering snakes of ruby set coiled waiting in a circle, heads up, grinning back at the cat. The cat set down too and put one paw into the cream lifting out a dripping blob with great enjoyment started to lick the cream, in the room only the sound of slurping could be heard intermingling with purr from the pussy cat.

            A Python appeared on the other chair, His translucent-glowing huge coils flowed over and down completely covered the floor around him and He was grinning wide mouth open and batting his long eyelashes, he hissed chiming “Good Morning to you all.”

            Then he rested his big head on the table and looked at me waiting. So was I, since I have known his best friend would be joining him in any moment.

            A mouse came out of nowhere; she stood up in front of the great head, Its tiny hand on her hips and was yelling at the top of its little lungs.

            The Python blinked occasionally but did not say a word.

            The mouse jumped up on the boa’s head pounding and stumping on the beautiful green sparkling skin while having a lovely temper and the sparkles were swirling flying around her. Her temper was in fact a mock-up of made out of musical notes it was a tune to morning rally to move, to get going start a new adventure: The snake occasionally blinked, fluttering his eyelashes but he kept his eyes on the mouse.

            It seems the mouse too noticed those long lashes made out of sliver of sapphire; she jumped over and with great vigor pulled out one. She held up the eyelash victoriously and holding it high she marched down on the sloping curve of her friend head to the Pythons nostril bent down and with while having huge wide smile on her face with great enjoyment she tickled the inside of his nostril.

            The Python eye opened wide than his whole body convulsively shaken and wiggled but He could not contain the tickling sensation he open his mouth wide and shut his eyes: he then did let out a enormous sneeze.

            The cream eaters looked up and watched in amazement forgetting the cream as the sparkles from the sneeze were flying about causing small tornado.

            The little mouse stood contented with its arms crossed, looking at the great head as the diamond tears rolled down hitting the top of the table exploding into brilliance.

            Me, I watched the sparkles as they lit up the room and then I smelled the fragrances of violets: Instantly I known that culprit Python has been in my garden and gorged himself full with scents of flower!

            PS: Ability to create is to create -experience in the same moment and “see” without eyes every little detail, the picture frame by frame as they are being created-experienced. That is the magic of the Universe. That is magic itself.

          4. Yes, you can speculate nothing wrong with that, but specaulation is only that, so when one would know if one while speculating have stumbled on the real thing?

            1. What i am wondering about since you said you are on adutitor etc… so you know that the TECH works, Now why bother to speculate if one can find out for self what is the real answer? All one has to do is to look! nothing is hidden in the universe, auditing questions are the very key which open all the door to knowledge!
              One of the concept which holds the game condition in solid form is “I dont know”. Once those walls are as-sed than ……. all there, everything there at same place as one has put them and left them..
              Now, if you want to playe the game of “”speculating””, by all means..
              sorry, just my thing why settle down to something which is not real, than play a much more affective game.
              Again, if the speculation is the only game in town than I stand corrected.. right, i do deserve to be told off, to mind my own whatever that is play other game and but out. No problem…

            2. Elizabeth – there are really several different paradigms / dynamics in play on all this.

              There is the effort to comprehend the “forces” of nature (the mechanics) so they can be controlled and manipulated for the purposes of self-preservation and enhancement. And when I say self, I mean that complex referred to as a human being. This is the aspect of the purpose of Scientology as the playing of a better game, in this case, the game of being a human being. This is the “prove it” game, requiring multiple tests and experiments and all kinds of building of things and so on before one can say, yes, that is correct and useful. It always comes down to usefulness in the game. IN the game. Currently this appears to be greater advantages for human beings or at least for oneself. Advantage seems to be more things and/or less restriction with less human effort. Out of that there is the idea of an OT who can manifest things at will (no restrictions / total freedom) that can be used in the game of human endeavor. In both these scenarios undoing the game is NOT the effort. On the contrary, preserving the playing field, and the human form is essential, and the things that are built have to be authentic i.e. all human beings can see them or at least enough to confirm that they do indeed have an “authentic” existence and can be replicated by other human beings. Speculation serves this paradigm very, very well, especially in trying to work out “natural” laws that can be put to work.

              Then there is the effort to comprehend the underlying truths so as to be able to come and go from the human being game at will. In this scenario, its not good enough to be able to do it for oneself, it has to be perceivable by others. i.e. once again, more than one human being can confirm it and things can be built or managed with it.

              Then there is the effort to get enough truth and illumination to be able to preserve the playing field and the human beings to be able to get enough truth and illumination to other human beings so that nobody gets left behind and everybody gets to either escape or participate.

              Then there is the game of undoing it all. Of course, from the perspective of those playing the games I just outlined, this can be very unwanted. And magic that doesn’t give advantage to human beings is wonderful but not practical.

              So it really comes down to practicality within the the human game called life. Consider the aims of Scientology. It has nothing to do with undoing the world, It is all about a better civilization. I think if LRH had pressed on the point that auditing would eventually undo all games everywhere people would have run away as fast as their legs could carry them. And yet, that is exactly what it does if pursued to the last bits and dregs. Your good news is that it doesn’t result in a forever undoing but an expansion of doing/undoing at will even if it is not in this world of human beings and washing machines.

              I think it all comes down to the fear that there will be nothing at all if it is all undone. Complete and total non-existence. Nothing. NADA. No presence. A yawning abyss of oblivion.

            3. Maria, i would never ever debate with you i am in the dust just reading your comment 🙂 I usualy need to read your post 3 times to have full understanding, not because it is bad, but because I have lost reality on most of concepts. [This time on few points i dont agree to even from human point of view.]

              Maria, When everything is erased which was put there by not knowing why, why it has remained there, who put it there, who has done what to it… When those things are erased the ”unknown”, the causes of ARCb’x than one can create play the game, have fun, be and do what ever one wants, all that still will be there..
              I know that was the point of scientology and that is valid all the way through, to have better game , become more cause.. the sessions are all about that: to be better, become the cause over…
              There is not much sense to worry what will be if one do not know what will be there in the first place, first they have to get there. But before that comes first as you say; improve their quality of life here has and holds great importance.
              I was informed, that there are immense amount of different reality levels in the Universe. When one is become bored by one, than can move on and have totally differen game… in different reality.. which one never heard of before, now that is promising…sounds like fun to me.

            4. Until Doc Whittaker posted here, you are the only one I know of that has dared to speak, to say what you have found, to try to frame it in words, what has happened / what you have experienced and what you continue to experience as you have employed the most simple of auditing tech throughout your life. I for one, am utterly grateful that you have.

              Some time ago, I was in communication with a one like you who showed me / shared with me, with startling clarity how light dissolved walls of darkness and separation. It was so very vivid, so utterly real and yet when my focus came back to this mundane and very practical world of human endeavor, I doubted, I chocked it up to my own vivid imagination. Sad, but true, To my absolute delight and amazement and gratitude, this one communicated to you and you relayed the message to me on this very blog. I WAS ELECTRIFIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I remember telling you to please thank that one for the message, and you told me, you can give the message directly.

              And that is why I say: Beloved Elizabeth.

        2. Maria, by now you knows in reality there are no OTs, OT levels, there is no awareness unit, since in reality there is no awareness. There is no personality or identity of any kind. All those are concepts in order to have directions, guidelines strategies rules which include the TRs: They are tools to use on one’s path in order to achieve one own goal. They are nothing more.
          If and somebody would ask me what I am, who I am…….there is blankness, no answer comes.. Because there is no identity, ownership, no thought, there is the total freedom to create-experience or not to, the free will to choose.

          1. That I can fully duplicate. I have had moments like that and recalls (or whatever you want to call them) of longer periods of being a bodyless entity yet able to manipulate large energies through effortless consideration. I have long considered the physical universe to be a sandbox of sorts – a place to play with the energies of the universe as a child plays with sand: scoop it, mold it, smack it flat, re-mold it. Even throw it at a playmate. There were consequences, though: blown-up planets, electrified playmates, etc. All of the things that kick in the phenomena of withholding, the collapse of abilities and the eventual arrival here.

            We have come to a point where we have been brought back far enough in awareness to get a glimmer of what we are capable of as a being. Being able to look at pieces of the universe – without using one’s eyes – is a big step back along the path of increased abilities. Being able to mold the sand is still another level. Being able to mold it artistically is still another level, another game, a new game. It’s a worthwhile game. Every game has player rules and these have to be learned. Eventually the promise or discovery of new games may entice one to leave the sandbox.

            That’s why I study the makeup of the universe, why I speculate on the mechanics of it and the mechanics that might limit my ability to play in it, or to not play in it – as I choose.

            1. I got it… now a question, have you find a different way which can as-is the mass in totality. Not a key out condition but erasure.
              ‘Have you met any one who has achieved such?
              same question as I had before :if one spaculate how one would know if one really have found out the right “speculation”?

            2. One speculates because one doesn’t know but is trying to figure something out.

              I can blow any mass I become aware of by inspection but I have not become aware of all masses. Sometimes the sspace around me is very empty of mass but I still need fingers to operate a keyboard and eyes to see it. That alone tells of uninspected masses. 🙂

            3. “””One speculates because one doesn’t know but is trying to figure something out.””” that is i am asking you. how you will know which speculation will give you the result you search for. Since you are not experementing making a new cake mix. That is easy to see, dont taste good, flat, yaky etc. Your, tell me what are so far, done, crossed out, as not working… But what you think you will achieve…. No more MEST universe? you will be in different location? this are of course examples.

            4. Human history and the human condition speak of things that didn’t work. We’ve all participated in that.

              On my spiritual path auditing was very successful until C/S’ing became something not to elevate the PC but to make him knuckle under, to submit. I refused to accept that type of C/S’ing and preserved my integrity and sanity. I left the official church when my obligations were complete.

              I waited for sanity to return to C/S’ing and programming but it didn’t. All reports were that it was getting more suppressive, and then, of course, Marty blew the lid right off and exposed the source of the suppression. It was then obvious that the church was not now, nor would be in the forseeable future, a place that I would entrust with my case. I became part of this new, wild west of case advancement.

              But to digress just a bit… some years ago, having been a number of years separated from an auditing session had left me with a lot of accumulated charge. Enough that I knew I was at a danger level. As an audito I had seen highly charged cases suffer heart attacks and other illnesses for want of auditing to relieve them. I decided (this was several years before Marty’s revelation) to do something I knew I could do – had done – but would be called self-auditing in the church: I began blowing charge by inspection.

              I did that as I had the ability to do it and as it was an attribute of Clear, which I had attested to. I decided it my right as a Clear, a trained auditor and a formerly well audited PC, to blow the charge I spotted. I figured the charge that I was spotting and blowing was just surface charge anyhow – the odd rud and maybe the odd, old engram. It was tough to tell about the engrams because it would blow so quickly. As time went by I found I could spot these charges around my body and could blow multiples at a shot. The end result was a space that was remarkably free of charge and one in which I could detect any onset of charge and then instantly blow it.

              Finally, in our new, wonderful world of communicating ex church members I found out more of what was happening, about what charge I was blowing. I was rather stunned and for a while a bit concerned. As I gained more data the concern abated while my ability to blow those charges still remains. The only change is that my attitude and appreciation of them has altered: any remaining charge is a part of my environment that I can be at instant cause over, vanish or allow to remain. I have gone from granting it no beingness – from only handling it with a force of vanishment – to a place where I can “grant it becomingness” (words of a wise friend) which is different from granting it beingness: I am at cause over it, I have accepted responsibility for it, I wish to handle it in a manner that might return it to a state of beingness as opposed to sending it to oblivion. That may sound wierd, but, Elizabeth, you know all about sounding wierd. 🙂

              Is there is more? Yes, but that is a lot for now.

              So that, Elizabeth, is much of what I’ve found successful and what I’ve discarded.

            5. @2ndxmr:

              Thanks for that!

              Your experience sounds so similar to mine! I too decided that my abilities were mine to use as I saw fit — no need to wait for permission. After all, the whole point was to have those abilities freed up forever wasn’t it?

              I too share your aim of breaking through limitations, to come and go as I choose and to extend and expand and dance in the very fountain of life across the multiverse.

            6. @ Maria “After all, the whole point was to have those abilities freed up forever wasn’t it? ”

              Yes, precisely. But it’s really the knowledge of the mind that we’ve gotten that assures we’ll be able to hold our position in space, or sort ourselves out if we happen to temporarily lose our position due to some event.

              So glad you’re there and also here!

            7. @ 2ndxmr – I wanted to say thanks for sharing a personal side of yourself with us. I so much admire and appreciate it whenever someone is willing to do so. Yours is a wonderful story and I’m ready for the “more” whenever you are!

              Also, I thoroughly share your viewpoint about “knowledge of the mind that we’ve gotten that assures we’ll be able to hold our position in space, or sort ourselves out if we happen to temporarily lose our position due to some event”. 🙂

              @ Maria – Thanks so much for all the vivid pictures you’ve been “painting” of the huge gains you’ve recently made in your journeys. You and 2ndxmr have joined Elizabeth in that respect – giving us a greater reality on “other” realities. Inspiring!

            8. 2ndx,
              Hi there, care to give me some answers on my questions? If not Ok to say, no but one of the question i have asked 3 times so far. you must have forgotten over our happines about Marias; Cross-Over.

            9. @ Elizabeth “…one of the question i have asked 3 times so far.”

              I may not have understood what you were asking. Looking at some of the questions:

              E. “have you find a different way which can as-is the mass in totality. Not a key out condition but erasure.”

              I originally interpreted this as asking about as-ising the total mass on a case. Which would be answered as “No.” If the question was asking if the totality of “a” mass could be as-ised, the answer would be “Yes.”

              As far as a different method of as-ising, that did go through a bit of an evolution. I started with a pain that was in the body, made a nearly perfect duplicate of it (duplicated it as best as I could but did not vanish the pain) and then moved the duplicate outside the body. The pain followed the duplicate out. The theta perception of it was that was a filmy black mass. I was then able to complete the duplication and as-is the mass. It would disappear as would the pain.

              As I developed this ability I began to do things like throwing the mass away. It was literally like hurling it off in a direction and seeing (theta perception) the mass shrink and disappear as it got distant. The theta perception of that was strong but the tangible evidence of it was that the pain, pressure or whatever was no longer there. The things thrown away did not return; the pains did not return.

              The next development was to look at the pain source – the mass creating it – and cause it to vanish. This started as blowing by inspection where a brief look and duplication was made and further evolved to simply uncreating it. That is different from duplication. It is very complete, very fast, very terninal.

              The latest development was the “granting becomingness” method. This method simply acknowledges the enturbulated area and indicates to it that it will be handled. That destimulates it in sort of a “lay down, dog” manner: it’s not destroyed, it can be fully audited later. This method was offered to me as a solution to my consideration about what I might be doing with the blowing-by-inspection method. Shortly after, I had an opportunity to test it following a very painful athletic injury. In brief, the injury caused many points around me to restimulate and begin moving in on my body. I immediately put out the thought “It’s ok, I’ll look after it.” to a wide area around my body and the points quickly (almost immediately) settled down. I was then able to carry on with the activity. I had physical bruising but my space was not enturbulated and I did not have to do dozens of blows-by-inspection to handle. Even more interesting is that subsequently my space has been much calmer than ever before – and it’s been pretty calm for a few years.

              Am I getting closer to answering your question, Elizabeth?

            10. Wonderful, yes and very interesting Thank You. That is I wanted to know….
              I have known one persons who used your method but he was not scientologist but he did not explained it fully, he could not .All he understood, that it can be thrown away, the pain. That never worked for me.

            11. 2x, while you’re answering questions, I have one too. You say, “This started as blowing by inspection where a brief look and duplication was made and further evolved to simply uncreating it.” I’m interested in knowing more about what you mean by “uncreate” it.

            12. E, yours was a good question too: “do you have cognitions while you are doing the work?”

              By “the work”, I am thinking you mean – at work, like on his job or business. Or do you mean any kind of work he may be doing?

            13. by I meant is pushing about the mass, putting it out,, not working but dealing with keyed in mass-energy.
              by the way 2ndxmn. where are you putting that mass,, is there a speacial place, or created by you, was there already there, because you mention “you will deal with it later” Now how you pull it back, from where, and where you pull it back is that energy the same one as when it was given you the problem?
              I can see how one can say, I will deal with it later, that is putting it out of mind- putting it out of sight= getting keyed out of its effect.

            14. Okay, I get it. I was thinking about something you have said before, about doing auditing while doing other things during the day, like working in the garden or whatever. And I thought you might be asking about that type of thing.

            15. @ Elizabeth, re: having cognitions

              Yes, of course, the development of an ability is accompanied by cognition but cognitions do not necessarily accompany a later use of the ability. At that point it’s a tool to do work.

              Interestingly our discourse here did prompt me to think along a line this morning that did result in cognition and recovery of ability. This had to do with telepathy. I’ve noted on Geir’s blog before that while I was certain of the ability to send, I had little awareness of ever having received. Maybe twice. The method I had adopted to send was to send on a wavelength that was close to the recipient tone level. This was fine if the recipient was in a single identifiable tone but hard if the recipient was dramatizing multiple concurrent tones. This ability came from hours of TR9ing auditing commands.

              This morning I realized (duh) that to receive I’d have to also go to the senders tone – I couldn’t depend on receiving if I was at some tone too different from the sender. It’s like tuning a radio. I was amazed: when I scanned down the tone scale it quicklly got noisy. A little too much for me to absorb right at that moment. I wondered if that was why people like to listen to music – to drown out this din of voices and thoughts. At any rate I was quite happy to finally figure out that mechanic. Now to work on the fine tuning…

              @ Marildi Uncreating is exactly that. I first did that many years ago when I’d realized I’d set up a theta machine to do something for me. I’d set up the machine almost without realizing it as I was busy studying. I quickly realized what I’d done and the possible future consequence of doing it so I unmocked it, uncreated it. It was a theta construct but not a conscious one. At least I never thought it was, so destroying it didn’t seem like any big deal. The same idea applied to what I thought were just old engrams and other masses. I thought they were all my own so uncreating them would be ok. I’m not sure if that could be done to a conscious entity but it certainly can be done to masses, so the question is, if a massy entity gets its mass vanished, is that good or terminal for the entity? Until I know the answer to that I plan on “granting becomingness” as much as possible. Some things may take a heavier hand but it feels very good to grant becomingness. My guess is that at some point it will be possible to run the equivalent of a group process on that part of the case and vastly speed up the clearing time.

            16. re:” having cognitions,Yes, of course, the development of an ability is accompanied by cognition but cognitions do not necessarily accompany a later use of the ability.”
              sorry i must have missed something, developement of what ability, i really dont understand the above’s meaning. [forgive i am a simple being].
              Do I understand right, when you push out something from your space than there is no cognition?
              When you place one energy to a nother place there is no cognition? Did I get that right?

            17. “” a massy entity” here i jump in with two foot. There are no massy entities as in the content you have put it. Each being hold equal right, no matter what their view points are. I the Spiritual universe all is equal, no one is better than any one else…. the GOOD BAD UGLY NASTY, VALUE or VALUELESS and the rest of the million considerations belong to human thinking, and nowhere else in the Universe.
              Unless you ask me to do so I will not evaluate your method… BUT …..

            18. Eliz, wouldn’t you agree that some entities (or people) or more massy than others? In other words, they have more mass around them – those are the ones I call “massy”. It’s not the being, as you aleady said, it’s the mass around him that I am talking about when I say someone is “massy”.

              Btw, don’t worry about evaluating – it wouldn’t be a discussion without that. The result will be that one of you will likely see from what the other is saying something that you never thought of before, or will see a different way of looking at it. Or whatever…

            19. No, anyone who is connected to, are being, part of the MEST universe, thinks like a human or has been a human are equally up the creek without paddles. The difference is more keyed in less keyed in.
              BUT being KEY- IN SIMPLY MEANS THEY ARE THINKING DIFFERENTALY FROM EACH OTHER, Marildi, being in one mass like being ON ANGEL or A SAINT or bad arse Devil, in either position he or she is not better off have less mass but they are just sitting in DIFFERENT VIEW POINTS… That is the reason Pleasure moment: having sex for example are not better moment than beating somebody to death. They are both energy creations on the long run equal and nothing more.
              Only by considerations-agreements in order to have a game, the existence of difference was established.
              There are no nasty entities, that description is a consideration they exist only in the universe of the person who believes that they are in fact exist.

              PS Than I will do the evaluation, he will not like it… but what the Hell, after that I can say the Devil made me do it. 🙂

            20. I totally get what you’re saying. And it’s even in LRH’s “The Factors” that beauty or ugliness for example are simply considerations. But this discussion right now isn’t on that level of reality, it’s on the level of what is going on in this universe game we in – and yes, that is based on considerations, such as thetans’ considerations that make them either more or less massy than some other thetans.

              You yourself had to enter the world of considerations in your auditing, as a step toward the higher reality. But like I’ve said before, some people aren’t even interested in that, at least for the time being. And even if they are, I don’t know if they can skip the step in between, which is the subject we are on. Let’s finish that one first since people seem to have more to say about that.

            21. by now you know my reality, skipping anything in my book means sooner or later those skipped items will pull back the being into MEST. because that being NEVER EVER HAS LEFT MEST, ONLY KEYED OUT OF THOSE for the time being and that time being no one know how long or short it can be, but it will happen that that unknown energy will hit that person right in the kisser. Lands on him like a atom bomb..Go had out there do the key-out game.. Being”” in totally now” works since in the” now” is no aberration There is no future or past. That is known to millions so that is achieved and played by all who maditates. Nothing new under the sun here, not even 2ndxmn game.

            22. E, in a way we’re saying the same thing – that we can’t skip the physical universe considerations. The only difference is that your path has been not to skip a single one of those considerations – and yes, we all know your reality about that by now. If we haven’t been convinced yet that it is the only workable path, you repeating it over and over isn’t ever going to do it. Discussing and sticking to the subject might, however.

              The general subject we’re on is other possible paths, since some of us aren’t willing to make the assumption that there is only one path – again, there’s no way you or anyone else can know that. Generally speaking, we are considering paths (perhaps already discovered ones or not so) which might even be faster or better in some other way than either yours or others, discovered yet or not. And on the specific paths being discussed, no one is talking about a path of mere key-outs – the subject is erasure – so key-out is not the subject either. Neither is anyone talking about the reality of “now” – a good subject but not the subject of discussion.

              The actual subject is – (1) what might be another path to take (currently, we’re looking at 2ndxmr’s path) which would achieve the goal desired (which may or may not be the same as your goal) and (2) what exactly would the goal or end product of that path be. And although you say that 2ndxmr’s path is not new, I have never heard of that path before, what I understand of it so far. Review his posts again if you need to and let us know if that path has been tried – not by making the generality that there’s nothing new under the sun, because that again is just your own assumption. You have to give specifics. This would all be part of a satisfying and productive discussion, I do believe.

            23. Since we seem to have come full circle on an examination of method – back to where you think I’m walking into a brick wall, and there’s no good or bad, or difference between thetans, only “now”, I’ll say “Goodnight, Elizabeth”, we’ll have to let a little more “now” elapse and see how things sort out.

            24. 2ndxmr, We are at DRAW!!! you dont belive my method is working which is LRH’s TECH which brough on immense amout of changes in lifes of those who have applied it, had sesssions and Geir is one of them. So I am not only beating my drums! And i dont believe yours will take out out of MEST. So we are not at even at all. There are many indepandent auditors who audit PC daily all over the world. So it proves the TECH is working but not for you, never have because you are searching for easier way out… So go for it…. it really dont matter to me…

            25. Elizabeth, exactly how much LRH tech do you apply? How many different processes have you used? On some previous posting I got the impression that you used only rudiments. If that’s the case you really shouldn’t be saying you use the tech or imply that you are using LRH tech correctly because you will not find one reference where LRH said to run a case only on ruds and nowhere will you find LRH saying to audit ARCXs. Quite the contrary.

              When you say things like “But everything can be handled; there is no condition in the MEST Universe which cannot be handled by using the TECH.” you are implying the broadness of the tech is being used, not the use of a single command or rudiment. You have no right claiming you are using the TECH. Get specific about what you are doing. Knock off the falsehood and generality.

            26. Now you have over stepped the boundary, don’t you dare to imply that I don’t use the TECH. If you ever do that again I rip you guts out and let the hyenas feast on you carcass !!!!! Did you get that?

            27. A very interesting reply. One that certainly steps over many lines. While I would simply like you to answer the question of what LRH tech you apply, your threats speak as loudly as bad answers. I can’t respect that kind of low toned communication. Get back in valence.

            28. You’ll have to TR3 the picture. Try it at a higher tone level.

              I’ll repeat the essence of my question and try to make it simple enough to answer as yes or no: Do you consider that the use of a single rudiment as a sole process equates to the TECH of Scientology?

            29. mister, you dont have to respact anything what i do how i express my self. I dare to speak my mind and i dont need to hide behind a ”nice”’ valance.
              Your attack was simply to put me down because of my earlyer answer to you, about the’ ‘proved tech” and it works. It is you who do not use the TECH that is fact because you are looking for the magic wand to erase your bank. And you dont want to slug it out, session by session, item by item because that takes confront dedication and immense will power. to be in session daily year after year. It is you who want to improve what ever…. You openly speak of your experiments and that is not based on the tech. knowing the tech or using the techis two very different thing… By the looks of it you who claime knowing it yet you dont use it because you dont believe it works!!! If you woyld believe in the THE TECH, Bloody Hell, you would not be looking for the magic wand to erase the whole thing…

            30. You dare to speak your mind but you hide behind force and bluster.

              I have never claimed I was using the tech as that is all the processes of Scientology delivered in the standard manner.

              My claim is that you have no right to claim you are using the tech or to use your holier-than-thou ugly valence to try and bull your way out of the corner you backed into.

              Unlike you, I’m not attacking where you’ve got to with what you think is workable. If you want to use a rudiment as a sole process, that’s your choice, but when you try calling that the tech you are so out of line that you need to be called on it.

            31. 2ndx, gee, I just can’t let this go by being in the corner squeezed in: here it goes…..
              Ladies and gentlemen: in this corner we have our heavy weight champion who is known as “the toothless phenomenon, bully, big time squirrel, raving mad, low tone low life, and most of all what she is legendary known for that she punches below the belt, ladies and gentlemen here she is that old wind bag, that bad mannered cannibal defending her titles: as all the above!!!

              folks, we are having fun, whe ever said blogging has to be boring?

            32. It may (or may not) have been fun, but unfortunately the intended discussion ended just when it was actually starting to be a new and true discussion, and went back to the same old boring one.

              You did well for a little while, seemingly willing to listen and stick to the subject, and then you went back to your unprovable claims that no sensible person could accept as true, just because you repeatedly insist they are. That is how to end willingness to discuss with you.

              Obviously, you have no intention to actually discuss. Your attempt is only to give your own views and if they aren’t fully accepted, then you go into using force – not reason or intelligence – in an attempt to intimidate, to dominate, and to nullify any other viewpoint. It only does a huge disservice to your efforts to show others the way and defeats those efforts, as the assertions you make are what get nullified – by your own presentation.

            33. Marildi, when in communication there is equal amount of evaluation and invalidation is going on by both parties; those are evaluation invalidation are some of the elements of communication.
              But the content of the communication is not the cause how the person who read it effected by the communication or react to the read material. That part do not belong in that communication cycle..

            34. PS and do not worry your self how others see me or believe that I am a fool. I dont worry about it, so why should you? I have no image I need to protect. So why bring that up?

            35. You should be worried about it because it makes you look like you don’t know very many truths.

              Here is the main point: In a discussion, each person has to be willing to explain their ideas and beliefs and answer questions or counter-arguments about them by giving specific answers. And if they have no answer, then they should admit that they don’t and that it is simply what they believe and is true for them (which is fine).

              It isn’t an actual discussion if questions and counter-claims are avoided by merely answering with additional beliefs and no explanations for those beliefs either. (In this exchange, both 2ndxmr and I have asked you questions or given counter-arguments which you don’t answer but either ignore or attack with generalities (the definition of generality we are using is “a vague or inadequate statement”. It’s easy to look back over the exchange and see that this is what occurred.)

              Likewise, each person should not only be willing to answer questions with specifics but be willing to listen to others’ ideas and counter-arguments and ask questions if they have any or state their specific disagreements, and sincerely try to understand the others’ comments and replies – and then either agree or disagree, but say why and give specific reasons for it, not more generalities and more assertions that are only beliefs.

              If the above isn’t done, people will not want to continue as it isn’t a discussion. The only people who would continue are those who want to carry on asserting their beliefs and attacking others who don’t agree or who have other beliefs/ideas by using more generalities and assertions that are also not backed up with specifics. Generally, people who post here aren’t interested in the latter. I myself have continued this far as a favor to you in an attempt to help you understand what is going wrong.

            36. @ Mar

              What you have written above is an excellent description of how the discussion should proceed and what will kill it.

              Thanks for the hard work at keeping things on track.

            37. Marildi, I all ready said that path is not new, it is a dead end, and I said nothing new under the sun. You do nor believe any of this, and believe me, unless I prove it. How can i prove that to you? impasible.

            38. Elizabeth, it’s nothing personal to you at all. If Maria or Doc or 2ndxmr or anybody else were to say that the way they got to where they have arrived is the only workable way to get there and as far as it is possible to go, and if they were also to say that no one else’s way works,– others could just “believe” any of them either.

              Why? Because to make such claims the person would have to know every other path that was ever taken and every path that could ever be taken – and none of you do. The reason I say none of you do is because it would take omniscience, knowing all, and none of you has demonstrated that.

              And it wouldn’t matter how many times the person made such claims or how strongly they asserted them, there is still no way anyone else could just “believe” it – even if it were true. So you are right to say it’s impossible to prove, but it’s also impossible to simply “believe” just because someone says so.

              If you can understand the above, then you will understand why the only thing that is actually possible to discuss is specific viewpoints and experiences and if anybody finds fault with those, there again, they would have to say more than a simple, “That isn’t true” or “That would never work”. They would have to give their reasons to support those conclusions. And if their reasons made sense, they might be able to persuade people that they know what they’re talking about. Otherwise, as explained above, people won’t necessarily be convinced that they do.

              Have a good night. 🙂

            39. Oops, I left out some words in the second sentence. To make sense it should read:

              If Maria or Doc or 2ndxmr or anybody else were to say that the way they got to where they have arrived is the only workable way to get there and that it is the only workable way to get as far as it is possible to go, and if they were also to say that no one else’s way works to do that – others could not just “believe” them either.

            40. 2x, makes sense what you say about “tuning in” in order to receive a direct comm. Another way of looking at it came up on the “Consistency” thread in some exchanges with Doc Whittaker. What I got from him is that he is able to put attention on pretty much any other reality, including the individual universes of others, other physical universes, magical universes, etc – and just by so doing he is able to perceive what is there, while remaining in this universe or not. You might be interested in checking out that thread! I have already been thinking that he should be here too, pitching in his ideas along with the other OT realities being expressed. (Doc, are you there? The answer to the old Irish question you posed – “Is this a private fight, or can anyone join in?” – is still, as ever, “Anyone can join in!”)

              Anyway, I sort of came up with another idea on the subject of telepathy. Of course, I’m still of the schools of philosophy that are mostly a matter of reasoning – but their theories have often proved correct, something like Einstein and his physics “intuitions” which later were proven out scientifically. 🙂

              My speculation is this: I’m pretty sure LRH stated somewhere that a thetan is “in a little bit of mass”. I imagine that bit of mass is unique to each thetan, being a unique combination of masses and energies. Be that as it may, there has to be some reason that individuals “recognize” other thetans even from previous lifetimes – they recognize the unique little bit of mass which has evolved over the eons from their unique creations and which is their “nametag”. Might that be what to tune into, rather than the current tone or mixture of tones (which is usually, as you infer, impossible to know)? Over to you, favorite discusser of the day, and beware of evaluations from me and Elizabeth both! 😉

            41. 2x, Got what you said about uncreating. I guess my unvoiced question was “What was being uncreated?” – a spiritual entity or a mock-up/construct that was created by oneself (or another, or even the body or some other mechanism, possibly). And you answered that, thanks.

              Just now, relating that to what I was saying about the unique bit of mass a thetan in this universe is in, I wondered if you did in fact “uncreate” another thetan’s mass if you would send him out of this universe, not having any “connection” via the mass. A one shot nirvana! (only semi kidding :))

    2. ELIZ BEAUTIFUL!
      “……I knew deeply that miracles were not allowed and anyone who caused one
      would be punished… My fear was so deep that I caused myself to be invisible by leaving
      blowing from there in order not to be found and to be punished…”
      Beautiful story full of concepts ” I ” “miracle” “allow” “cause” “punish” “fear” “invisible” “leave” “blow” “find” which, when seen through……Flow/Alive Com/No more “gone”/Truth/True words fitting the instant without charge/Love/”Present” “Time”……

      Seeing through these concepts that which is alive in each of us is “let flow”, and by flowing it is putting into “reality” that which is needed in that instant – that is the “flow is pleasing”….
      One example:
      I was at work. I felt I was hungry. Said to my workmates ” I am hungry. ” Just casually,
      peacefully, no thought, no emotion. My workmates said something like OK/ sorry I have no food…….the next moment I go out of the office and there is a boy in front of me “Do you
      want some chocolate?” And I smile and accept and thank him for the chocolate. He smiles too and off he goes.

        1. Yes….and as we are “forever” “in” the TRUE, Spiritual Universe, when one is telling the truth “in MEST”, as in my example, one is automatically “connected” to the True Universe and there is a “respond” to that which manifests itself in MEST. And also when the fear of telling the truth is gone, it brings about a change in “another” and the whole Universe. How do you see it Eliz?

          1. No, dear pussy cat… You are not in the MEST UNIVERSE THAT PART IS THE ILLUSION… You only have those considerations that the MEST is and it’s solidity exist.. that is on illusion.. that there are lies, that you have location, that you are IN something or being someplace..
            WE dont have locations.. there is no past there is no future only one say there is but those sayings-considerations are just that…. not real… mock-up they are.. and that is that.. love you my dear .

            1. Eliz….read what I wrote before this…..I said we are forever in the Spiritual Universe….and yes….I get what you are saying….very deep….I can confront it……have
              confronted it many times……

            2. There you go… the fun part of the spiritual state that one dont have to confront anything.. one just experience and enjoy the moment… the NOW..

            3. Yes, yes, “considerations are just that…. not real… mock-up they are.. and that is that.”.
              It sure is nice when one can take responsibility for those mock-ups too. I mean that for myself by the way. What fun and how wonderful to be reminded sweet string of pearls. 🙂

            4. Yes, Eliz, a peachy day resting, thanks for asking! Body is nice and exercised from the new paying job. Money is always helpful even if a consideration, right? I mocked this one up real good, yeah!

            5. True….and that moment of NOW can be no-thing and the whole universe at the same time….

              …and I just realized what soul-mate means….once I and another created light mock-ups….but “our ways” separated and we started to create different universes….I bumped into a mock-up like this and wondered why my mate is not there….because my mate is busy building a universe….and I feel a kind of a sorrow that my mate is not playing that light game with me any more….and I realize it’s just a mock-up….and I smile….

              I had a “picture” a couple of days ago…a little girl and a boy holding hands are just “falling and falling” in infinity….it seems that this fall will never end……but all of a sudden they stop, right in nowhere…..still holding hands they start to create different forms….beautiful houses, trees, animals…..they create the world….then they enter it….suddenly they let go of their hands…with it a slight sorrow and fear arise in them…from that instant on they see what they explore in different ways…when they meet at the end of the day they are busy telling each other their experiences which they are enjoying listening to and it dissolves the fear….but the sorrow of that separation remains….
              Silly may it be, I thought I would share it with you….
              And the bottom line is……there is just infinity…….

            6. Thanks….experience, that is…..and you keep telling it…..and that is the real bottom line….what is true for you is true for you….out of experience….and when two experience the same, they don’t even talk about it….and when it comes to Truth/True nature, there is just silence…….BUT how fun it is to play and create new games!

  18. Maria I knew I was the only one who has written of those things I am very aware of it. It has rattled me to the core to come out to be open, to speak up, speak out than top of that my English was in the sub-basement. To be among so many whose reality was not close to mine that was, is almost suicidal.
    I stayed here in this blog and mine to for one reason, in hope there will be a few who will understand and that understanding will be motivation for them. For that few I have battled given and taken beating.[I also learned and gained a great deal.]
    I been ripped apart and did the same to others. I never fought battles like this before. No, I am wrong, once long time back in other place and other time and I have and I have lost.
    The battle was against the coming of the Black TIDE- solidity of the universe, the implant games, the MEST universe. I than I have lost, but now I can’t lose I have went further on the PATH, I have continued erasing all the counter postulates which has caused the losing, erasing those than there is only winning passible!!!
    Back then There were many than who have counted on me and I have let them down every one, which includes Marildi, [she is spitting hot lava at me at the present, but that is OK, I still love her, she has to find her love for me again].
    Maria; this is a incredible battle when ones tools are words… Much harder to use than any old weapon made by any man. With a gun one gets, use a bullet, bingo there are no hundred different reality-outcome as with words, since the outcome depends on the readers reality! and that can be hell and usually is.
    Maria, I don’t write of many things because I do not wish to cause ARCB’s yet I do all the time! I regret that, When I read about it.
    I have difficulty writing about those wonderful things I have seen and experienced over the years, maybe because they are just normal things to me, the everyday happenings, and other time I wander, who is really interested, or I think, who really gives a fig, who would care or believes anyway?
    When I have written Chris what I have seen he would not even ack…. So, were lives that communication?
    But the most difficult part is to write about what one really becomes when one erases the MEST considerations. Fear not people, you will be what you want to be, you stop and play where ever it pleases you to linger for millions of lifetimes. We all have what we create, we all have our destiny in the Universe.
    Yes, there is that one-ness but there is much more to it. The Doc has mentioned too that there are beings-thetans who are more or less powerful and some are giants.[not in size but abilities=power to create]
    Now that depends how big-powerful one becomes just how much one is willing to give up in connection of MEST.
    More you give up as-is, the more power-control ability is gained back therefore have the SIZE OF THE SPIRITUAL BEING. If we want to look at sizes etc….
    Now Maria, hold on to your bonnet, Elizabeth has achieved on incredible powerful position: if we want to talk in human terms.. Yes, there are others out there who have and still believe that MEST, SOLODITY IS POWER. and they are powerful, hehehe, and let me tell you Maria, they sure keeping their invisible eyes on me. They have not figured out what has happened in the universe and who is this little old me..
    But of course I have not met every being out here, I claim that not.
    Maria, Yes those bloody 10000 intensives as 2ndx said sure has brought immense different data up, to be examined, so please don’t take it to personal if I am NOT RATIONAL LOGICAL human being.. But I don’t mean to hurt unless I put my mind to it. And I also know-understand different reality can be difficult to except.. I really know that.

    1. Yes, I understand what you are saying!

      The last few days I have cried rivers of joy, laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed and felt my heart full to the brim and running over spilling into my world. Like Doc and you, I have experience of “giants” and I assure you they share all this in their own way. They do know what happened and already the walls of delusion are falling, as the light bursts through and undistorted truth dissolves the ancient lies. Blowing by inspection. And there is a surge throughout the worlds, even here, as countless numbers break through to a NEW tomorrow. NEW. Yet it comes so quietly to this world, and its progress seems so very natural here that hardly anyone notices. But it will all be so much easier for all of us now to wake up and break up the old old tyranny.

      Of course, as I write this I realize that the words sound so trite, so corny, like cartoon characters pretending to be people and paper moons representing the night sky with the moon’s full light shining across the sea.

      1. Marildi, please except public apology for my offensive email to you. That was not nice never mind nice, let say that was foul of me to do. I have no excuses outside that No such a thing as on angel OT. There never was one and never will be. I have warned you some months that break can happen in our communication, and the cause of the break should be disregarded. I am sorry I have hurt you.

        1. Not to worry, Elizabeth. Your email surprised me but didn’t hurt me. Thank you very much for the apology. That is something I truly respect and appreciate. 🙂

          1. Maroldi, I have a question for you:
            tell me what an ARC break is in your own words, as per policy and what will happen if you clean up all ARC breaks on everything everywhere and with everyone?

            1. E, don’t you recall what I’ve said in the past, that the idea of handling all ARCx’s as a basic underlying theory for your tech seems reasonable to me because, per my understanding, ARC is the woof and warp, the basic principle, of existence in this universe. Mechanically, it seems to be how the physical universe itself works (from what I understand about it) – and it’s also the mechanics of how thetans operate in this universe. Even considerations solely result in mechanics, even in the magical universe although those mechanics may be different or a less solid form of MEST.

              What doesn’t seem reasonable is for me to assume that simply flying ruds, primarily ARCx’s (almost entirely, in fact), is necessarily the best and fastest route. And I’m not even sure that it doesn’t have its own traps – if in fact it doesn’t take into account all the factors (some perhaps unknown to you and I) that could make for a trap when one is solely flying ruds, especially with respect to people who don’t start the route at the case level you did (i.e. after you did the Bridge). I know about the others who are solo’ing by your method and who are winning, but they so far haven’t done anywhere near the number of hours you have. In other words, your method may work on you, but it may not work as well on others

              In answer to your question of what I think would happen if all ARCx’s were handled, there is also the point that not everybody is interested in erasing ALL the considerations and agreements and thus the MEST universe. Even if all of them will eventually want that, not everybody does right now. Different paths fit different people.

            2. Marildi, thank you, My question was what would happen if all the ARC B’s would be handle, lets not talk about where is ones case level, or who is only wants to erase some of the BANK. Just what would happen with that energy…

            3. I thought I answered it in this sentence: “In answer to your question of what I think would happen if all ARCx’s were handled, there is also the point that not everybody is interested in erasing ALL the considerations and agreements and thus the MEST universe.”

              The actual answer to the question was in the last part, “,,,erasing ALL the considerations and agreements and thus the MEST universe”, meaning that what would happen is that the MEST universe would be erased – as-is’ed.

              The rest of my comment was my own origination, my thoughts related to the general subject we’ve been on in the exchange. Those thoughts were not meant to invalidate what is true for you, btw. I was just being open about my own considerations.

            4. Marildi, your answer was not straight out but deeply hidden.: in fact was not was not on answer at all and please note that…
              “””In answer to your question of what I think would happen if all ARCx’s were handled, there is also the point that not everybody is interested in erasing ALL the considerations and agreements and thus the MEST universe. Even if all of them will eventually want that, not everybody does right now. Different paths fit different people””””

              I do understand the reasons what holds people back, what stop them in their track, why suddenly dont continue with their auditing.
              I have no problem or ARC B…with any one because of that, simply because i know those reasons and I also know the reason why I have done what i have done… I simply wanted to establish and have the power of the Rudiments as a TOOL since it is TECH which works can handle all items of the MEST Universe acknowledged here in this Blog.
              Thank you.

            5. Okay, if the answer to your question, “what would happen with that energy”, is not “the MEST universe would be erased – as-is’ed” (the answer I gave), then what is the answer? In other words, I’m asking you for the answer from your viewpoint.

            6. Hello, Marildi, yes that answer is right, but how you have put it in the long complicated sentence, was not a straight answer. Thank you .

            7. How can you come to the conclusion that the MEST universe would be erased? Being in-ARC with something does not equate to erasure.

            8. I want to defend my answer too.:) LOL, I had to re-think how I originally saw how that would be, from Elizabeth’s description of what has occurred for her.

              Basically, existence in the physical universe and throughout the whole time track comes down to ARC between oneself and others, and between oneself and the physical universe. By as-ising all the breaks that have occurred and cleaning up all the BPC that the bank is composed of, one is then able to fully view and thus as-is all the considerations that ARC is composed of as a result of the A (i.e. coming into proximity with others or MEST), the C (communication with it/them), and the consequent R, which would be a consideration. (Sorry – long sentence.) And by now being able to view that consideration fully, it too would as-is. All of them. One by one.

              Leap of logic anywhere?

            9. Mar: “Basically, existence in the physical universe and throughout the whole time track comes down to ARC between oneself and others, and between oneself and the physical universe. By as-ising all the breaks that have occurred and cleaning up all the BPC that the bank is composed of, one is then able to fully view and thus as-is all the considerations that ARC is composed of as a result of the A (i.e. coming into proximity with others or MEST), the C (communication with it/them), and the consequent R, which would be a consideration. (Sorry – long sentence.) And by now being able to view that consideration fully, it too would as-is. All of them. One by one.”

              This section “and thus as-is all the considerations that ARC is composed of”: Affinity is not a consideration, it’s fundamentally a willingness to share space. By having affinity for something/someone you do not erase the willingness to share space. Reality is agreement. Communication is an action of sharing comm particles. Where’s the “consideration”?

              If you handle an ARCX you increase/restore ARC. The person/thing becomes more real, you’re more willing to share space with it, you’re willing to communicate with it. If you increase your ARC with the physical universe it should get more solid, more real. That I would agree with.

              And how does cleaning up all the ARCXs equate to cleaning up all the BPC that the bank is composed of? There is a lot more to BPC than ARCXs.

            10. 2x – I didn’t mean to say that either A or C is a consideration, although that might be argued – but it might not be necessary with regard to what I was looking at. Let me try again. Yes, A is willingness to share space, and it is because of that willingness that there comes about the proximity I referred to. With proximity there can be communication, or as you put it, a sharing of comm particles. R is a duplication of that which was communicated. That duplication, i.e. the R one now has, is now one’s consideration, as I see it Or. more to the point, the particles themselves are in fact considerations, in their origin; one went into agreement with those considerations upon communicating with them and then carried forward those agreements=considerations.

              The whole idea is that if one were to fully view the original agreements and considerations (the particles) – an ability one would have if there were no charge to conceal them – then all the particles making up the physical universe would as-is along with the perfect viewing of them.

              Now, you do ask a good question as to how all BPC would be ARCx’s. Okay, let’s look at implants, for example. Aren’t they basically a break in each one – A, R and C? But maybe you have something else in mind where it wouldn’t come down to an ARCx?

            11. Sorry, it’s a weak, specious argument for the reasons already stated. You have to twist your thinking to make A, R and C into the order of considerations, which you have to do to make E’s argument work. Then you have the universe disappearing – once the ‘original agreements’ are known. Another logical fallicy. The universe hasn’t disappeared for E.: she’s still here with bank dramatizations, like the rest of us.

              One thing I’ll reiterate is that LRH said you can’t audit an ARCX. The reason for that? Can you erase ARC? ? ?

            12. Consider this quote from the Phoenix Lectures that Vinaire posted on the “Challenge for Scientologists” thread, almost a year ago. It utterly changed my viewpoint about ARC.

              “There is a level lying between considerations and A, R and C and this is Is-ness. It’s the consideration of Is-ness. Things are because you consider that they are and therefore something that is, is considered is. If you don’t consider that it is, it of course can be considered to be something else. But if you recognize that it is a consideration you only have to recognize that it is. And if you recognize that something is, then you have recognized merely that it is a consideration. As soon as you have recognized that something is, IS, you have reduced it to a consideration, and that’s that. One has affinity because he considers he has affinity. One has reality because he considers he has reality. One has agreement because he considers he has agreement. One has disagreement because he considers he has disagreement. One has a Dynamic… because one considers he has a Dynamic.”

              What I would conclude is that one doesn’t erase ARC or “pleasure moments” only because of one’s considerations to that effect.

            13. Mar from Phx. L “There is a level lying between considerations and A, R and C and this is Is-ness”

              1) This distinguishes A, R and C from considerations.
              2) It implies that the product of consideration and ARC is isness.

              Where does it imply that if you handle an ARCX you get as-isness?

            14. 2x, you quoted this line: “There is a level lying between considerations and A, R and C and this is Is-ness”.

              But he also said, “And if you recognize that something IS, then you have recognized merely that it is a consideration.”

              And more directly, he said: “One has affinity because he considers he has affinity. One has reality because he considers he has reality. One has agreement because he considers he has agreement.”

              To me, that is saying that the isnesses of A, R and C is that they are considerations. Again, an isness IS a consideration, per that whole quote. It’s very tricky to talk about and even LRH’s attempt sounds specious. (I’m in good company. ;))

              “Where does it imply that if you handle an ARCX you get as-isness?”

              It doesn’t, except indirectly – based on the idea that without any charge masking them, one would be able to fully view one’s considerations and thus as-is them. The same way one would as-is any old consideration, not just the most basic ones that create/created the physical universe.

              So that takes us back to your point of whether or not all BPC can be expressed in terms of an ARCX. I don’t see why not, but I may have missing data – do you know of anything that creates charge that isn’t fundamentally an ARCX?

            15. @ Mar: “do you know of anything that creates charge that isn’t fundamentally an ARCX?”

              If every bit of charge was fundamentally an ARCX then Scientology would need only one command, one handling, as Elizabeth seems to think.

              However, LRH did not seem to think that the solution to a problem was handled by handling an ARCX. No, we look for an intention/counter-intention; force/counter-force; effort/counter-effort. It’s a different mechanic requiring a different handling.

              Similarily, we do not handle out-Int by flying an ARCX; we don’t handle an out-list by flying an ARCX; we don’t handle an engram by flying an ARCX. Each type of charge has a mechanic associated with it that requires a DISTINCT handling. Clearly, every charge is not fundamentally an ARCX.

              We do fly an ARCX as a RUDIMENT: an action that gets a PC’s attention off that one, singular type of charge so that the PC’s attention can be wholly on the process that will help recover ability.

            16. 2x, OMG, that is so funny! Some of the things you listed out as examples of things not able to be handled by flying an ARCX were things I listed for Vinaire one time when he was going on about why his KHTK was better than auditing. I think another one on my list was ser facs (as Vinaire was going on about how right he was and how wrong LRH was, LOL). I knew that many things require more than flying ruds to handle, but I hadn’t quite articulated in my own mind that it was a matter of the mechanics being different. Great point! In this exchange. I had forgotten about that whole idea.

              I suppose Elizabeth would still say that handling of all ARCX’s would eventually peel off everything else – and theoretically that may be true. But as you say, even with Elizabeth it hasn’t happened that she has completely freed herself from the MEST universe, and she herself doesn’t claim to be finished yet – she is still auditing and as-ising.

              Speaking of ser facs :D, I can still imagine any of the things you and I listed as fundamentally ARCX’s. But that may be an overly simplistic view. And in any case, the significant point is the one you made about mechanics and that it takes different methods to handle different kinds of mechanics in the bank – at least DIRECTLY so ;).

            17. Marildi,
              “””even with Elizabeth it hasn’t happened that she has completely freed herself from the MEST universe, and she herself doesn’t claim to be finished yet – she is still auditing and as-ising.””

              Marildi by now I am looking at the THETA UNIVERSE I am learning what” is””! And that what “”IS” you have no clue of.
              You “assume” where I am at from your reality-view point from which is the solid universe you call MEST.
              You cant see outside of that and “Words” knowing words will not take you to that understanding level where i am at You oparate in the MEST-solid univesre and i am in the universe of which you have no reality of So I will not attampt to explain because you wont get it.
              I am not auditing any human considerations as you know them and believe in tham that they are real. Your total invalidation evaluation is the example that you have no understanding.

            18. E, I didn’t mean it as inval/eval. I can see that it was my misunderstanding of what you said. Or – my lack of understanding, period. And I’m sure you are right.

            19. 2ndx
              ””’The universe hasn’t disappeared for E.: she’s still here with bank dramatizations, like the rest of us.”’
              That is your consideration, assumption guess thought belief hypothesis supposition all what you think of me is just those. You haven’t got a clue about my reality..

            20. Sorry for the late answer we had about 7 hours of black out last night. Transformer was over taxed and blown up-burned out.
              The universe because it was and still is continually spontaneously naturally being created but the understanding its mechanic was not available for every part in the Physical Universe; Like here on Earth and how it has been created in the first place: because of that nothing ever been as-ised.
              Everything exists because the knowledge about that thought-concept-incident-item energy mass it has been twisted thousands of different ways over the eons, lied about, not understood, not having affinity for it=not loved, not wanted, refused, its existence denied, forgotten, left behind, elapsed, went out of style, one has died and moved on etc..etc..etc..there are zillions of reasons for that.
              Total ARC means as in toward the item, having a cognition in the end of the session is that’s that ”’aha, it’s a … because etc…”” In that cognition that person Communicates with that item: confronts it for the first time, he understand why it was created in the first place [original postulate] and he feel total affinity for that creation for that first time and when that happens the eraser happens plus there is new born reality-knowledge becomes his and that is total ARC with that incident-item but that Item by now is only “has been”.

              PS: MEST is nothing but energy there is no time or space existing, LRH was 100% wrong on that…AND ALL MATTER IS ENERGY, so what do you got in the long run??? AND energy can be destroyed….. as-ised….

            21. E, the only thing I would disagree with in your post is what you said about LRH being wrong about MEST. You say MEST is only energy but M-E-S-T stands for Matter, Energy, Space and Time, not just Energy. And LRH knew that M-E-S-T (all 4 parts) exist only because of considerations. When he talked about MEST, he was merely talking about it as considerations and said specifically that considerations were the reason for its existence. You may have heard, for example, that LRH said “time is a consideration”.

              Other than that, I thought your post was really good!

            22. p.s. I assume you got the implication that it was nothing but considerations that created the physical universe.

            23. For the record. Dramatization is not characterized by participation or even a deviation from “normal.” Nor has it anything to do with good or bad manners unless the manners are dramatizations. Here is the definition from the tech dictionary:

              DRAMATIZATION, 1 . to repeat in action what has happened to one in experience. That’s a basic definition of it, but much more important, it’s a REPLAY now of something that happened then. It’s being REPLAYED out of its time and period. (SH Spec 72, 6607C28) 2 . the duplication of an engramic content, entire or in part, by an aberree in his present time environment. Aberrated conduct is entirely dramatization. The degree of dramatization is in direct ratio to the degree of restimulation of the engrams causing it. (DTOT, p. 74) 3 . complete dramatization is complete identity. It is the engram in full force in present time with the aberree taking one or more parts of the dramatis personae present in the engram. (DTOT, p. 75) 4 . thinking or acting in a manner that is DICTATED by masses or significances contained in the reactive mind. When dramatizing, the individual is like an actor playing his DICTATED part and going through a whole series of irrational actions. (PXL Gloss)

            24. ENERGY, 1. energy would simply mean a potential of motion or power. It’s potential or actual motion or force. (SH Spec 84, 6612C13) 2. energy derives from imposition of space between terminals and a reduction and expansion of that space. (COHA, p. 256) 3 . there are three kinds of energy. There’s a flow, and then there’s a dispersal, and then there’s a ridge. (PDC 18) 4 . a mass of particles which is a mass of motion. (5203CM04B) 5 . postulated particles in space.(PXL, p. 150) 6. energy is subdivisible into a large motion, such as a flow, a dispersal, or a ridge, and a small motion which is itself commonly called a “particle” in nuclear physics. Agitation within agitation is the basic formation of particles of energy, such as electrons, protons and others. (Scn 8-80, p. 43)

              MATTER, 1. a group of particles of energy located in a relatively stable relationship to each other. (9ACC-24, 5501C14) 2 . thought, effort and emotion all in one place at the same time. (PDC 62) 3 . a particle with no space to go anyplace. (PDC 16) 4 . it is evidently a very solid thought which is chaotic enough in its arrangement of attention units that you can’t do too much about it. (5206CM23B)

              SPACE, 1. space is a viewpoint of dimension. It doesn’t exist without a viewpoint. (531lCM17A) 2 . space is not nothingness. Space is the viewpoint of dimension, and that is what space is. It is how far we look and if you didn’t look you wouldn’t have any space. (5608COO) 3 . space is caused by looking out from a point. The only actuality of space is the agreed-upon consideration that one perceives through something and this we call space. (FOT, p. 71) 4 . space is made by the attitude of a viewpoint which demarks an area with anchor points. (Scn 8-8008, p. 17) 5 . can be defined of course in reverse by its own terms in terms of time. Space is something that to go from the left side of the table over to the right side of the tabletop would require space. They define against each other (time and space). (5203C03B)

              TIME, 1. time is basically a postulate that space and particles will persist. (The rate of their persistence is what we measure with clocks and the motion of heavenly bodies.) (PAB 86) 2. time is actually a consideration but there is the experience o f time. There is a distance, there is a velocity of particle travel—and the movement of that particle in relationship to its starting point and in relationship to its ending point, itself is the consideration of time. (5410CM13) 3 . exists in those things a thetan creates. It is a shift of particles, always making new space, always at an agreed-upon rate. (COHA, p. 249) 4 . simply a consideration, the considerations of time itself are mechanically tracked by the alteration of the position of the particles in space. (PAB 46) 5 . a manifestation in space which is varied by objects. (Scn 8-8008, p. 14) 6 . an abstract manifestation which has no existence beyond the idea of time occasioned by objects, where an object may be either energy or matter. (Scn 8-8008, p. 26) 7 . time is the co-action of particles. You can’t have action of particle at all unless you have space, and when you have a change in space then you have a different time. (PXL, p. 135) 8 . time is a consideration which brings about persistence. And the mechanic of bringing about that persistence is, by alteration. And so we have alter-is-ness taking place immediately after an as-is-ness is created, and so we get persistence. In other words, we have to change the location of a particle in space. (PXL, p. 114)

              My restatement of these definitions to a simpler statement:

              Time has no actual existence except as a measure of matter or energy. Space has no actual existence except as a measure of matter or energy. Matter is no more than a persistent group of related particles. That leaves energy, a potential of power or motion of postulated particles.

              Coining the term MEST has use in identifying that which we speak of. It is a concept that doesn’t exist except as energy but is useful in measuring and defining.

            25. Maria 🙂 reading that has spinned me in. I mean that.
              By now you know I have no reality how the energy is brocken down Into sections, each movement named categorized, so do forgive me, I just see it as whole in entirety.

              By now all has become same-same to me… But I am delighted that you have it explained so clearly for those who still have the need to understand how the MEST –energy is constructed around them. Fantastic write up by you. l
              Love YA.

            26. A selected definition from the tech dictionary:

              THETAN: energy-space production unit.

            27. Oh Geez! I see I forgot to note that the four definitions of matter, energy, space and time in my post above are from the Scientology technical dictionary — they aren’t my definitions at all. I posted them because much of this discussion is in the context of Scientology definitions. My contribution to that post is my simplified version at the end!

              Love you too Elizabeth!

              And yes, all that categorization does tend to get really spinny! That’s why I decided to see if I could make my own simplified version.

            28. More technical dictionary definitions:
              *********************************************************
              ARC: ARC=Understanding and Time. A=Space and the willingness to occupy the same space of. R=Mass or agreement. C=Energy or Recognition. [partial definition only]

              MASSES, masses are masses and they are not by the way particles unless you consider particles as a subdivisible singular. Masses are something that are shed from a thetan by mock-up and particles are something that are shed from masses. That’s usually the way we find things. (17 ACC-5, 5703PM01)

              ARC Break: a sudden drop or cutting of one’s affinity, reality, or communication with someone or something. Upsets with people or things come about because of a lessening or sundering of affinity, reality, or communication or understanding. [partial definition only]
              ***********************************************************

              More of my own summations:

              Space in this universe is established by boundaries.
              Time in this universe is recognized changes in space.
              Energy is postulated particles in space.

              BREAK: The word diminished serves to describe lessening or sundering.

              Diminished space / affinity: More or greater boundaries, breakage into smaller and smaller bounded zones of occupation. The etymology really says it nicely: early 15c., from merger of two obsolete verbs, diminue and minish. Diminue is from O.Fr. diminuer “make small,” from L. diminuere “break into small pieces,” variant of deminuere “lessen, diminish,” from de- “completely” + minuere “make small.”

              Anything that raises tone is legitimate processing per Science of Survival.

              How do you fix an ARC break?

              You clear away that which diminishes.

              Imagine no boundaries.

              That would be no MEST at all and/or able to occupy any and all MEST in any time and in any space.

            29. Maria….“Sundering’’ cutting braking dividing: I had to look up ‘’sundering’ ’[nice musical sound that word has, in fact sounds as a small wave rushes up the sandy shore and then the water retreats….. slides back rolling the millions of send particles and the sound is…. the harmony… nice word .

      2. Maria, few days back you have totally connected into my universe… You had a huge cog, that cog has erased mass of immense magnitude and you have not left my universe because you have further cognitions, you have realized also ” I am what you are”
        Now Maria, by becoming one what new realities are you discovering for your self? What realities you have become aware of? Suddenly you are understanding the universe how it is… , that is how the communication is working in the universe. My thoughts do become yours, the one-ness is there in the unexplainable way but who started that one-ness, it really does not matter, you have joined that one ness that was your decision. When you said : ” I am what you are’’ and totally believed it without any reservation.
        You have written about the possibility of on OT ability, just how much influence they have, now you understand it. You will go on cogniting for days… Have fun….
        There is so much more to it, wish I could explain it all.
        Please do not fear anything, the true Universal truth is safe sonce it is pure, there is no harm in sharing space -universe. I have no evil intentions, my bad is not bad that way…I have a different bad, which is not a human bad…hehehe..

        1. Maria, I wonder if you care to read the mechanism of what has happened. I take it step by step from where I have written if there is no impassible than there are no barriers.
          You have read that and You had a cognition which totally as-ised huge mass, so your universe was in fact “empty”, that “emptiness’’ allowed you to continue with cognitions and you realised since we all share that ‘I am what you are” that is totally true.
          With that cognition in place of course you have erased more mass, and the same time since you self-moved into become the thin-est form of energy- life force, whatever.. have become the ‘’occupant ’’ the universe I share with others, that so called empty place, the theta energy- the life force, whatever name one care to give, where my cognitions new realities in form of knowledge exist in invisible form [sorry, there is no other way I can explain that occurrence.] By joining the “group” you too has become aware of that universal knowledge I have and shared with others. So cognitions pour in and the same to you spread that knowledge to others not likely they become aware having it, but it is there… no doubt about there. So here I take on invisible bow, and share a cup of mate with friends My body will have the liquid but the experience will be wide range in the Universe.
          That is why I am regretful when I cause upset of any kind.. that too is experienced by many..

          1. Yes. That is what has happened! I was just considering what words could possibly describe this to you on the blog and you wrote them.

            Words. They are like cardboard cut-outs when used in place of what is. Lifeless. Kind of thin. I add life to them, I bring them alive, I see entire universes unfurling from them. Amazing.

            Being here — I had this notion I could only have one or the other. Theta or MEST. Would have to choose one or the other because they were separate. Not now. I can “walk-about” in both worlds or all worlds simultaneously.

            Art. I have always loved art, paintings, color, texture, and I never could get it to be VIVID and ALIVE and now I have my “paintbrush” again and oh, I love the magnificent fur on my cat. I’ve been playing with cats. The fur is thick and golden and sparkles and shimmers with the most amazing softness, each hair perfect in detail.

            Oh yes, I am having fun!

            1. We are entering that wonderful world where words fail. That’s fine. Ear to ear grins speak a thousand words. Congrats! 🙂

            2. Maria, I just had a realization myself, you are the first being who is still have connection to the body who I have taken over to the my side the spiritual universe, you have merged me into my Universe, where of course ‘’ me or you’’ as separate beings don’t have any meaning.
              It never entered my mind it could happen, that I can be at cause and help somebody who still with the body… never, not once…fantastic… magic…
              This is a mile stone, because now we can see and learn how two individual are one, yet remain at cause of their own universe.
              Now, that too need to be celebrated. And what is that? You can write of your new reality, what you experience. Love this stuff.. Good night to you all.

            3. Good night, E. Good night, Maria. Good night 2ndxmr. Love you all. 🙂

            4. Yes, one can be or have many different considerations, One can hold down intention of doing-ness in different places, we live here but doing there, while simulatiously we can create something in totaly different manner, It is so mind boggling, I can drive, sort out veggies in the store, talk, be someplace and create something totally different.
              Walk the grounds hear the sound of the foot steps and beaware the movements of the body, the eyes see, But i am not with the body, that is not real. what can be real is by being at the ocean where the “water” is deep pink, all sort of critters sit by my invisible self and many more comes to be partake of the fun on the crushed sapphire sand.[ it is truly sapphire sand its real, And we all talk, laugh, and some do some acrobatic things in the air the fish which do not look like ones the oceans hold here, clapping their hands and we all are happy and the garlands are placed on me and they are woven of sparkling laughter.
              The magic of the universe, while the body payed for the grocery, taken it to the car, etc…. Fun? real? yes….

            5. Maria 🙂 when you are ready 🙂 please 🙂 write up:) your WINS 🙂 so we can share and acknowledge your great gains.. To ack. gains like your has importance…love E. 🙂

            6. I guess I don’t really think of what happened in terms of wins. For me, they are breakthroughs, quite literally!

              The greatest limitation I was aware of for a long time was that even though I had perception of expanded “experience” / “existence,” I seemed not to be able to establish “communication” / “communion” in a state / experience that I could not deny or dismiss as “imaginative” events. This past few days I have broken through, and past that with Elizabeth, to my extreme delight.

              Also, I knew that I had been blowing through / dissolving what Elizabeth likes to call the “black tide” for the last year or so (probably throughout my life, and even before that) but again, I denied that it was happening even when I knew very well it was happening. Imagine my delight to find that she knew about this!

              I remember telling everyone on this blog that I was interested in expanding my [no good word here] or expanding into [deeper?] [more real/actual?] or perhaps less confined states. Well this last while was a major breakthrough on this.

              The cognitions came too fast and are not very easy to articulate. The one that I can sort of describe is about imagination. I imagined that I was imagining. And I it was true that I was imagining, but the imagining was more actual, more real and more presence [a real and actual existence] than I ever dreamed possible. And it has flowed into this time-space too as a “warm/fuzzy” feeling and sense of capaciousness / vividness / aliveness and a sense of being a fountain of life. This doesn’t mean that I don’t have imaginative ideas, but it means that I do have experiences that are imaginations that are real. So hard to say it! LOL!

            7. Maria, thank you. I have called moving from the MEST universe into the Spiritual Universe the “Cross-Over”.
              Yes the cognitions pour in by hundreds, they flash front of your awareness, and you to totally comprehend each-everyone and the most amusing that each cognition last only a second…. But that only show you what we are capable comprehend and how fast that knowledge is there when we do not “THINK.”
              You are right it is not a win, nothing ordinary about entering the Spiritual Universe and leaving behind what you have though was REAL the MEST, and you are not going to miss it, not one bit. 🙂 Now you understand what is Illusion is.
              While one lives the illusion of the MEST than believes, thinks that the Spiritual Universe is only existing in one’s ” imagination’’ and after the Crosses-Over, one realizes that the MEST was the illusion and there is no doubt in that in one’s understanding.
              The Cross-Over is the most profound experience on one’s Spiritual Journey; It is here in this Universe we are rally home where we belong since we are nothing but intangible -infinite, so the “thin air” suits us fine.
              But there are new challenges wait for the one who has crossed over. Next steps will be what I call the House Cleaning. The residue, the remaining items which tends to pull back the being need to be confronted because one still operated in the MEST so there will be stimulation of plenty, and MEST do hold great amount of trickery, set ups which pulls one back. One becomes stable totally at home when the effects-stimulations of MEST are handled daily.
              But everything can be handled; there is no condition in the MEST Universe which cannot be handled by using the TECH.
              Yes, Maria, I totally duplicate everything you say, even what you don’t say because words can’t really explain what has happened to you.
              I also know words can’t describe how you feel, possibly: Paradise found?
              You can call me any time, looking forward to hear your voice: 604 467-5238 I will guide you over the upcoming obstacles since there will be some.

  19. 2ndx, Maria will find the words, but that will take little time, I have found them most of the time by now but I been practising for two years, it is this month 2 years when Silvia Kusada published my first post, the summonation of 35 years of solo auditing.
    “To walk the walk of the Solo Auditor: the Path of Enlightenment”

    1. Maria, Marildi and 2ndx; To you my reality…what is the most important question in self discovery, but with out the other commands that question would not have any use.

      Maria, you mention what my work contains as solo auditing: and the special role running the extended Rudiments, and of course the ARCB’x, and running them what they cause. You said the questions are Segmenting that item and with that the confronting becomes easy for any PC. Not just for the Solo auditor.
      In my reality all auditing questions accomplish the same thing no matter what is that: it directs the PC to the items one at a time…. can’t be done any other way. I been reading posting that there are those who believes and waiting for the discovery the easier way out, the use of the MAGIC WAND. That never will happen, there is no such a Wand existing, unless one mock-up a new implant strong enough to contain commands which would be: nothing exist there is no past, nothing ever been there ETC….HEHEHE… Now that would create one Hell of a hole, overriding everything and leave the being behind as a BELL hanging empty in the nowhere without its memory, recall, knowledge.
      One just can’t movie into the universe take one bloody huge chunk out of it and zap it and say it is done: I am clear.
      What would happened then? Just destroyed one large complicated mass but it is still remains that mass what it was before and it was not as-ised in any way, it just changed shape and now have different meaning.
      Scientologist made many lists, LRH made many lists, these list picked out pacific aerie’s of the bank, topics which would concerns the human being: let say POWER, influence, control, communication, affinity, ethics, sanity- rationality, behaviour, forgetful –ness, remembering recollection. Anything at all.
      Any though can be expended and made into a very extensive- comprehendible list.
      Yes and being audited on any of these lists will blow charge, the PC will have immense gains.
      But, these lists speciality items in the church were used to make-sound something interesting and they were used for PR to bring in more money.
      Of course if there was a list like mine way back: the Integrity Rundown which dealt with O/W’s and me reading that brochure has intrigued me of course I bought it.
      That time 1 hour was 100$ and that was a lot of money in 1980, I bought 3 intensives and I loved every minute of it. I had that done after Full OT7 at Flag.
      Here is my point Maria, the same O/W’s can be handled while one runs the Rudiments, [one do not need special intensive of any kind Bank is a Bank, there are no special Banks in existence.]
      But I have found out while soloing that while one can run out of Overts but never can runs out of Withholds, long as one is in the Physical Universe because opening up discovering what are withholds in itself are the basic- core of every spiritual being and that core is well hidden even from self the spiritual being: since while in the MEST universe he is never-ever himself.
      From that basic-core he puts forward that front, that personality who the game player is, that character, character who mocks-up, that actor the role player: he is always BEING SOMEBODY, HAVING SOME KIND IF IDENTITY : I am…… this or that etc….etc…etc…
      Here is a question: While he is playing that role where he really is at? Where is that creator, who is that originator, that powerful being who has produced all those wonderful games which is called having life, living-being?
      After playing millions of different roles over the eons could one really recall who is or was “THAT SELF” originally who is that mighty creator ?
      Running the Rudiments and including in every session the O/W and that special question “has the withhold been missed” becomes very important.
      As a solo auditor I have discovered for myself that in the long run in order to understand SELF that question was the most significant it use has great value.
      I have found out one always can have withholds if one is willing to confront that inner core that true creator; the self.
      Because that question asked over hundreds thousands of times and from the answers one slowly discover unrevealed and learns the answers: just who is that well hidden being under those thousands of different identities; what and who are that person and one learns of what is the true self how one things, acts and why, and what are ones abilities …
      That question opened up the treasure chest which contained the understanding, knowledge what is the real meaning of OT.

      1. E, it’s good you posted this comment. Some of us have had the impression that you run ARCX’s almost entirely. But here you also give great importance to the missed withhold, maybe even greater importance. And I believe that you aren’t actually running them as rudiments, where you are supposed to end off at the first F/N on each rud. It’s more like you are running them as a process.

        But even with those clarifications, some people (including some of the ones who aren’t saying that your method isn’t workable) might still wonder if it is the fastest, most efficient method. I’ll give you an analogy, just to give you an understanding of some people’s reality:

        A person might only know a method of picking grapes that involved just picking one at a time, or he could know a method of picking small branches of several grapes at a time, if he had the understanding that grapes are “structured” in that way. Or if he knew about grapes also being structured in big bunches, he may even know enough to pick a whole bunch at a time and be finished with the picking much faster than with the other methods. It may even be the true that all three methods are necessary to use – sometimes one, sometimes another – like with the Bridge.

        That is a silly example but I think it gives the basic idea of what people who have auditor training and know about “structures” are thinking – which is that your method is more like picking grapes one at a time, compared to other methods.

        A real example of this kind of thing would be Book One Dianetics compared to NED (New Era Dianetics). The NED method clears out the pc’s reactive mind much, much faster than Book One or the other methods of Dianetics that had been in use before NED was developed. Even much faster than the method in use just before NED came out – Standard Dianetics. Per LRH, NED is 100 times faster.

        There’s another point others may consider too – which is that when you yourself started “picking grapes” as a solo auditor you had already picked all the grapes at the lower end of the vine, and thus were able to continue your path by working on the ones higher up and getting all the nourishment and power from those too. Plus, as an old OT VII you had a lot more power than someone who has never had any auditing, or at least not as much as you have, and therefore you would be able to “pick grapes” at a much faster rate too.

        In the first part of your post you described your method, and after that you described the incredible benefits and knowledge you have gained. What you say there and in many other places tells me intuitively that you have truly arrived at a higher level than many people who have done the whole Bridge and beyond, if not all of them. And I’m not the only one with that viewpoint.
        I write all this just to give you a better understanding of some others’ reality, so you don’t think that there is necessarily disagreement with every part of what you’re saying. Not at all. 🙂

        1. I know this is late answers but… MOST OF MY CRITICS never dared to step out of their very narrow minded considerations they are stuck in.. that is the reasons they are critics… and their reality has much value as the hot air blowing from the mauses back side.. I am in the mood for no manners.

  20. Marildi, once the being is in the spiritual side one is very aware that body is only matter, a robot, so that thing is doing what it is ordered to do, the being is doing what self wants do,
    The body is only capable having, doing so many movements, but the being has no limitation what it can view, create, where it can roam.
    One of my favorite places was having sessions while I was driving, since I have driven weekly up and down in Washington on I 5. The body was anchored solidly in the seat of the car, and the hum of the motor and the tires rolling over the road were wonderful anchor. And me i was having time of my life exploring the universe-soloing.
    I never had on accident… I was told that when I was observed driving, that my attention never were drawn away from the corridor of the moving cars.
    I knew before other cars made their move from one lane into the other. Their attention shifted from their lane into the next spot they wanted the car to move: checking if the road the spot was free,
    I could pick up Patrol cars and I just knew that there was change in the energy pattern of the traffic. Police have different energy flows from the average driver so they were easy to spot. A being can do hold immense amount of thoughts-doing-ness down at the same time, since when is not walled in by thoughts one attention can hold down immense amount of activities.
    After all, the being who no longer has the bank has perception of 360 degree, that is in a ball form into every direction… there is nothing the being cant see, walls are meaningless since the being is not using the ‘’eyes’’

  21. That is how you see things that are your reality, fine by me…. Your problem is since you have one, that you do not accept what I said true for me, I only have one reality and you wand different. I can’t give you that…. I can’t mock up some assumptions, I haven’t got it… Is that so difficult to accept?
    The problem remains yours, I can’t give you which I don’t have outside of what I already given!!!! So, let’s go from there shall we?
    I don’t end discussions, how could I end everything? You have, because you don’t have anything more to say. But why is that, care to tell me?
    Why not just continue with your line of thoughts like nothing has happened, ignore what I write, like I never said anything, trust me I will not be insulted.. But do get off the blame wagon and go on, just ignore the unimportant element which do not feet into your communication… you might just get someplace and will find that magic wand. Please don’t let me stop you….

  22. Maria,…. Yes, But again to me Thetan means is intangible-infinite, It is amusing how the definitions of words change is ones reality shifts. but that is natural yes?
    It is very understandable how we create miss-understanding, ARCb’s when we use language as communication tool, and it seems I am very good at it.
    But again, how can that not to happen when words-use of concepts causes so much misunderstanding among who communicate within the boundary of the MEST believes and I, want to explain communicate with words the phenomenon of such on manifestation where words are not in use and communication is not between individual terminals? Since there are no individual, no beingness?

    1. One day I realized that the Scientology definitions are mostly to do with this universe and this universe is all about individuals and individuation, separation, condensation, symbols, and boundaries. Much of the language used is an approximation that is useful for communicating workable means of reversing all that.

      But when one takes away all the boundaries, what remains?

      A living presence that permeates everything. A boundless ocean of life. Unfettered and free. Loving, knowing, acting, creating — focusing in and out, near and far, passive and active.

      At least that ‘s how it is for me.

      1. Maria since you like cognitions…. here you go my dear….

        Because of my Blog I receive emails from many different individual who are on the Path of Self-discovery on different level and some of this folks expresses in their communication their concerns over the beings out in the universe: how are they, how they behave, if they have evil intention toward others in these case the humans and can they hurt influence other beings.

        While I was pondering on her question….looking over the vast experiences I have had while my coexistence in the Universe, have I realized nothing can hurt one unless one considers- believes in that…that it can happen

        Cognition: profound reality hit me…

        In my wonderings in and out of many different universes I never found another being who was a better or worse than I have been…..

      2. TO MARIA……
        Crossing-Over.
        I can’t recall, have no idea of the topic this session was about, but the end cognition transported me to the outer edge of the solidity: from the MEST Universe into the Spiritual Universe.
        Suddenly I have found myself bodiless of course beside an old boulder which was bathed in light. I noticed the pale gray shades, the shadows and everything about this boulder was so incredible vivid and so very alive, living, existing.
        I could see the smallest dents and every molecule of the boulder, inside and outside to the tiniest detail and seen ancients moss covering, lovingly draped itself over the boulder: lovers holding each other in embrace for eons.
        My attention was on the stone and I realized that represented had a significance, great meaning which was: life itself as I have known that till now and the boulders solidity represented the physical universe and from out of that universe, the MEST, I just have walked out.
        Looking back into the distance where I have emerged from was darkness and that darkness was lifeless and held no life, it was void of life-force and it had a name: death.
        My attention was drawn away from the ‘’past’ and I become aware of void, void which had no beginning and no end, and was empty, totally empty since I seen nothing and sensed nothing as I experienced that vacuum.
        My attention turned was pulled toward on energy to my right and there was shimmering mist, mist which contained all the colours of crushed diamond dust which I call life-force, creative energy and that energy was dipped -infused in the mystery of opaque which was the future itself, the yet to be..
        And I was pulled by this incredible phenomenon: I was mesmerized: this mist was so incredibly alive, it rolled, moved within in its own boundaries I have realized there was someone within in but I did not know who was that entity and I felt tremendous affinity emanated from the mist: It was drawing me, to melt into, to become one.
        But I also I realized that I needed to step into that void and experience and truly understand its meaning and that was my next step; My cognition was: the void I have created have become what is by as-ising the MEST Universe. By understanding that I turned my attention away from the mist and I moved forward the void and as I did, I felt no fear since I have left fear far behind me in the dark, in the past.
        In that moment as I let go stepping into the void that step taken by me again had a significance: regaining trust in self and the same moment I have given up the last uncertainties.
        As I flowed in to the void unafraid and as I experienced acknowledged that great void that empty state in totality where I was nothing nobody yet aware in the fullest sense, the mist moved in surrounded me folded me up in its invisible arms and I have heard music, a most beautiful music, it was a waltz to which the soul can only ascend.
        As the music and brilliant yet opaque formless mist held me we dance over and we filled that void with life-force, we swirled, flowed and floated in space of our own endlessness creation.
        To the total harmony of the universe which was the music as we continued our dance as we flowed: happiness, the joy infused the universe than slowly the mist dissipated I existed I was that void yet not empty.
        As the music melted away and so were the surrounding significances and suddenly over the starless translucent dark blue velvet space an intense brilliant shimmering rainbow appeared and held the universe suspended.
        I knew I was home.
        PS: when I reconnected to the body: tears were rolling down a sobs heaved the chest, and I have realized, had a cognition about what is my role, my future in the universe, the yet to come..

        1. Wow! Once again words fail, but I will choose these to serve however poorly: How amazing and beautiful and wonderful! Thank you!

        2. Some thoughts inspired by Elizabeth:

          One has to be prepared to receive truth. And truth often arrives in odd “coincidences,” perhaps not even recognized on any but the most fundamental level and so easily dismissed. And then it comes back around again, this time more insistent, more obvious. Like a little seed that manages to break through even the toughest granite and can be found growing between the cracks of a concrete sidewalk.

          I have been considering the concept “withhold.” It literally means “hold against” and comes from the idea of being within the hold of a castle. One is with the hold. Holding on, holding against, holding out, defending, fighting, protecting. Even within the Scientology definition a withhold is done to protect oneself. Oneself. Oneself. That amazing construction of self, that created identity of mind which has so much value and importance, and yet no real substance when it comes right down to it. Intercepting every creation and slicing it into a series of moments in present time [not real time at all] built out of what has been and what could be and what should be cascading into reality and filtered to a tiny focus point that clings to survival and tries to be right, always right, never wrong, for wrong means the loss of that identity and all its status and all its memory and associated gains and wins and hopes and dreams and then what? And then what? Well as you have pointed out there is a real now, and in that real now there is real creation and that is then what. Oh no, says this constructed self, this machine that speaks as if real and final and all, that’s just your imagination — there’s really nothing there at all, so don’t look over there. Don’t look over there and don’t look over here, listen to ME! Hold the castle. Protect yourself! All will be lost if you don’t hold the castle! Wow.

          Someone asked me one day what the difference is between a human being and an animal. I really contemplated this question and what I came up with is that human beings are story tellers, the most obvious evidence of it being our great love of fiction, imaginative stories told and written for others, art works created for no other reason than to create, to express our love of beauty and moment. All other differences are a matter of degree. And it is this creativity that has been twisted round to be the very thing that traps us in the end. You see, they say, well its just your imagination. No it is what our world is made of and it is what the trap is made of too.

          Thank you Elizabeth, for expressing your cognitions and your truth!

          1. Yes, thank you Elizabeth. And thank you, Maria. The above posts were both moving and profound.

            Maria, I’m so happy for you and your well-earned “crossing over”, and for the “mere” words in sharing it with us and inspiring us. The readers here are lucky to have your willingness and ability to communicate, both.

            Elizabeth, your post told about your own crossing over like never before. Magnificent. And once again I thought that physicists and metaphysicists of the world should take note.

            I’ll your words back and say it’s a joy to know you girls! 🙂

            1. Marildi are you going to invite those physicists and metaphysicists for a pow-wow? did i say that right? indian talk.. I have a opening in my calendar…

            2. COGNITION……………………
              I just had a realization: when one erases all the ones reasons the motives the needs the urges, the purposes, the musts, the dedications and one fulfilled all the commitments, ones duties toward others and self, re-pay the owned as in promises one have made: whatever those may have been for going someplace or staying in place when those considerations- agreements are all gone, all erased : than one has truly arrived..

          2. Maria animals live in the “NOW” have you thought about that ?
            about your reality how YOU see the witholds, I will post that under my write up on Witholds in my blog..

  23. Marildi, thank you.. All inval. evaluation is simply existing because we all live our own creation and it is impassible to co-ordinate those universes when they are made out of thoughts-considerations-agreements=assumptions. Now when those no longer exist than there is the one-ness, harmony exist. yet individulatily still there when one create. Now, that is impasible to explain how that happens. May be Maria can find the words. I give up.

    1. You shouldn’t give up, you do better than you think. Some of it comes through.

      And you are getting better. (I am too. ;))

    2. By now i have had a few emaisl about the above cognition and the good folks figured it out for self what i have not written down: If all those things are erased when arrives to :
      Native State… good for you all, for having awarness to understand. 🙂

      1. And good for you too Elizabeth! Your message is getting out, and we will all benefit in the end. If not sooner ;). But I don’t have to tell you that. 🙂

  24. Marildi you old enchantress, you don’t realize just how much power you have at you command. When you are spitting nail at me I pick it up, and when you are hell bent to make me wrong because you thinking that I made you wrong, being wrong.. I pick it up, and when I feel your affinity, I too melt… My dear that is called “I am what you are”
    But I have to admit I get tired of running into walls….yes some of it comes through but I KNOW all remains with each reader. Oh it remains, no doubt about that.. They will recall it later when the time comes..

      1. By now i have learned how to repair the ARCb’x I cause… 🙂
        PS; I not only see the bad, the bad in any body is so little, it is a just those considerations. I see the true, powerful -creative beings at all time. I dont attac, put down the beings but only those believes-those consideration only…

  25. Marildi,
    ”’You say MEST is only energy but M-E-S-T stands for Matter, Energy, Space and Time, not just Energy”’
    What is matter made out of? is there true space in these Universe where there is vacuume to tal nothingness? If there is that “”I WOULD CALL SPACE” All space in the Universe is filled invisible energy which is not visible to the eyes.. yes, time is a consideration.
    So what have the scientist discovered of late? Everything is made out of the same stuff, correct me if i am wrong. And that same tinny particles give out the most beautiful sound in the universe, friend of mine created added that sound to those particles, for the sheer enjoyment.
    Now ,Marildi who ever said that LRH was alway right no matter what he said? Yak…. yak..

    1. Eliz, I have to leave for a while, but… I’ll be back. (Imagine an Austrian-German accent. :))

  26. Marildi I just reread some of your comment to me..If I still would worry what others think of me, how they see me or not, what is their reality their reality about this old gal, if Still would worry over that given another thoughts than I would thave a choice, do something about my worries. Get into a session with great speed to confront my worrries once and for all or get a shut gun and blow the brain into tiny particles. yak… Since i have no worries, dont need session, dont need a gun, i heading into to the garden and indulge in coversation with those beautiful creations and have fun..
    And leave others with their very own creations, their reality… whatever that is..

        1. The same to you Elizabeth! I love the Christmas spirit going around. Have a good one! 🙂

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