OT 8 – follow-up

This is a follow-up to my previous post, “OT 8

Imagine this:

You have a problem in life. To you it is a big issue that you really would like to get handled.

You come across the Church of Scientology, where they promise you a better life, spiritual freedom and a permanent fix to your problem.

You embark upon a journey up through many levels of counseling – called The Bridge to Total Freedom.

You finish level after level. Your communication improves, you get more self-confident, become more spiritually aware, other areas of your life improves.

Your main issue in life, however seems to be a tough one to handle. But you push on as you are told that some next level will handle it.

All the way to the top you go. To OT 8. Each level has its own specific end result. On OT 8, it is:

I now know who I am not, and am interested in finding out who I am

And that is the end of the road. You don’t get to know who you are, what you are or anything positive. You get to know who you aren’t – and you are interested in finding out who you are. That’s it.

Although I got great gains from doing OT 8 myself, partly because I have a different take on the rationale behind the upper levels in Scientology. But imagine getting to the end of the road, still possibly having major issues you’d like to have handled. I would imagine some people could get quite confused, spinny, mad or feel fucked over by such a brush-off end result. Parked out in nowhere and asked to contribute their lives to get the next level released – at the whim of the Church’s management. All the while being demanded to uphold a perfect facade of a happy opinion leader to the rest of the foot soldiers. A perfect exterior, interior in shambles.

I am not saying this is how the majority of OT 8s feel after completing the level. I didn’t, and I know others who have justified the level in a satisfactory way. But I know of several that have had some serious issues and even contemplating suicide after reaching such a spiritual dead end hostage situation – where you get the next fix only if you give your heart and soul to a greedy management. Mad much? You bet.

Letting anyone halt at the end result of OT 8 is cruel. If anything, the church should have waited with the release of OT 8 until they had the rest of “finding out who you are” canned. It’s like doing a surgical operation half-way and leave the patient.

If you were in such a situation, would you do everything the church asked of you in the hope of a new level released? Or would you revolt? Or what?

Update: Maria commented that the EP of OT 8 is in fact that the person completing the level is now interested in doing the Enemy condition.

1,345 thoughts on “OT 8 – follow-up

  1. I don’t know how people can end up in the mess you describe, at least not if each level is done perfectly well. IMO you should find out who you are already on the L/R or the lower grades. It’s NEVER the next level for the problem you are having NOW. Ref.: C/S Series Nr.: 2:

    “….A pc must attain the full ability noted on the Chart before going up to the next level of the Chart….” LR

      1. True, Isene. And also true that auditing can only start when present time problems are handled first. The “present” time problem can range from “really being there” in the “physical”, or just “mocked up”
        as real for the PC – as it being there will prevent auditing, working as a filter, so the PC won’t have a true access to his/her mind..also, if auditing goes on like this, WITH the problem still there, as the PC has bigger and bigger space, the problem will look bigger and bigger…my reality. Eventually, as I am writing it down now, the person can finish up as I am WITH a problem…looks nice! Can happen that the problem is at a very deep level, the person not aware of it even in the I AM
        state…and can spin the person…my take.

        1. Scientology the tech is consistent it is peoples mind, what is in their mind, how they did not duplicate what they read, there is the inconsistency.. You are riding again the wrong horse as usual…

          1. The auditor is responsible for the PC until the PC is his/her own control center. That is all words of the auditing question must be cleared before the auditor asks the question. The auditor is responsible for that! The SUP is responsible in the course-room…both the PC’s and the student’s responsibility level must be “brought up” up to the point when the person knows/is/can be responsible for him/herself….

      1. I am, sending you this article as I feel it is appropriate.
        Todde

        From International Viewpoints (IVy)
        Issue 3 – November 1991

        Message from exSCNist turned into Bodhi
        By Todde Salén. Sweden

        Purpose clearing from DUGA

        Quote from LRH. “Living is having and following a Basic Purpose”.

        For a thetan it is absolutely necessary to have and follow a goal. The
        better his goals are the more alive he is if he also follows through
        towards attaining them.

        If he fails to attain or approach his goals he winds up in trouble. In
        other words he ends up in a mass of problems. This is the idea behind
        Goals Problem Masses, i.e. GPMs.

        So when you want to straighten a thetan out who has become messed up
        by his GPMs your first task is to give him the goal of straightening
        out his messy situation.

        Everybody who ever got “turned on” by LRH in the organization called

        Scientology knows how it feels to get a goal and make progress towards
        attaining it.

        The goals of Scientology for the thetan were really basic goals. So
        they made the being come alive.

        Hubbard was successful in awakening thetans to try to get straightened

        out. He also had some success in getting us moving in that direction.

        Failed Purposes

        I hope we can agree on the above. If so, we have done step one in the
        DUGA process.

        Now we will face step two:

        What kills the thetan more than anything else is a “failed purpose”.

        Knowledge about Goals and Purposes and what they do to a thetan is
        very valuable knowledge indeed. A thetan who knows about these things
        is much better equipped to handle problems in life. Real problems in
        life are purposes and counterpurposes. When you have a mass of
        purposes and counterpurposes opposing each other, you have a problems
        mass.

        The only reason a thetan fails in achieving his purposes is because he
        winds up in counter-purposes.

        Now just take a look at what you did with your own purposes to get
        disentangled from the mess (Goals Problem Mass) you wound up in. Do
        you have a failed purpose in the area? If you do, it is only because
        you did not have a way to achieve those purposes that was workable for
        you.

        Now next question: “Who is to blame for your failure to achieve the
        purposes?”

        If you blame Hubbard or your Scn Auditor or the Cof$ or somebody else,
        you are really doing all you can to get stuck in a failed purpose on
        the subject. Whenever you create somebody else than yourself as source
        for your failures, you are successfully creating a mass of problems
        that prevents you to attain your goal.

        Congratulations! You have done it again.

        It could be said that LRH did not successfully create a bridge that
        took you all the way to OT.

        It could be said that he claimed to create a bridge to take you all
        the way to full OT.

        The Road to truth

        What he did, however, is that he got you started on the road to truth.
        And if you are any kind of being, you should be able to not fall into
        the trap of blaming anybody else than yourself for not arriving where
        you wanted to go.

        It could be said that it is suppressive to give somebody a goal
        without also giving him a way to walk towards that goal.

        I do not want to make excuses for Hubbard. I seriously doubt that he
        would like me to make excuses for him.

        I also do not want to allow you to be excused. After all you are
        already an OT in many ways. You are OT in the ability to create GPMs
        that mess you up. You are OT in blaming other entities for your
        failures. You are OT in creating yourself as something less than an
        OT.

        You have managed to create yourself as a human being who only lives
        one short lifetime on planet Earth. And you have possibly been very
        much OT in making yourself believe that you are “only human”.

        Road to truth

        If you have exteriorized and remember it, you have attained the dream
        of the Bodhi. You have become aware of not being human. You have
        connected up with your beingness as a spiritual being – a thetan.

        That is a big step on the road to truth. The road to truth leads
        towards your own true self. Your own true self does not need anybody
        to blame for your failures.

        Your own true ethics not blame Hubbard for having given “too little
        help”. Your own true self will be very grateful, indeed, for the help
        you have received from LRH and his technology. Your own true self will
        look at the Cof$ and recognize that you can no longer get any help
        from that organization, as it is today an “out-ethics” organization
        and thus cannot deliver “in-tech”. It cannot any more assist you to
        move forward on the road to truth.

        The best that organization can do today is give a new person that is
        getting in contact with it a hope that he can get untangled from the
        GPM-mess he is in.

        They can give him this goal. But that organization cannot help that
        new individual along on the road to truth the way you once were
        assisted by it.

        Somebody else has to step in here and assist those individuals if they
        are ever going to get a chance of arriving enough far down the road to
        truth to be able to continue on together with some other guys like you
        and me.

        Out of the ashes of the Cof$ a lot of free zone organizations have
        grown up. Some of those organizations have made it and can deliver a
        much higher standard of technology than could ever be done in the
        Cof$.

        If you want to continue and get your case untangled, you had better
        connect up with one (or more) of these organizations and get busy
        continuing towards the goal, instead of sitting there playing other
        games that will give you new failures and more masses to get stuck in.

        Religion

        We never played any small game in SCN.

        SCN is just a small game inside the bigger game called Religion on
        this planet.

        SCN did not change the basic philosophy of religion. It only added a
        technology to it that can be used to achieve a lot of the goals and
        purposes of religion. When you start working on these higher goals and
        purposes you are revitalizing yourself as a thetan and OT.

        Ron never really tried to make you – the human being – become an OT.
        It was only the true self he could make an OT out of.

        The biggest misunderstood in the Cof$ is and was that the first
        dynamic can be made into an OT. The “human nature” of yours is very
        much the effect of Matter, Energy, Space and Time. The “Bodhi-nature”
        (i.e. the true self or thetan) exists outside of the MEST universe and
        does not have to be the effect of matter, energy, space and time.

        Step one is to have the goal of getting untangled from the enegies and
        masses of the reactive mind (uncontrolled mind it was called in
        Buddhism).

        Step two is to make progress in this direction.

        Step three is to continue to make progress in this direction despite
        obstacles (like the organization one belonged to going out ethics,
        etc..)

        One step on the road is to have attained exteriorization and then an
        Int/Ext Rd, so one can continue.

        Another step (much later, which could be called OT 8 or the “end of
        Auditing “) is to become so much cause over your mind that you no
        longer need to use the E-meter to progress on the road to truth.

        On the road to OT 8 you have to become a very good Auditor or you will
        never be able to become cause over the mind, which is an important
        step.

        1. Excellent post, Todde. I’m afraid it may have been too long for most posters to read but it is well worth reading. I hope Geir took the time to do so as it speaks directly to his OP. Anyway, thanks for posting it!

        2. Thanks.

          One note to OT 8: It is Not the last level – never was, never was intended to be. It is not even half-way across the canyon. The Bridge does stop in mid-air. One is, as an OT 8 not capable of taking oneself “all the way” (wherever one defines that). There is other knowledge needed. I have come to realize that I must complete the rest of the bridge by utilizing sources outside of Scientology.

            1. I know that you are a great fan of bombastic statements. But this one was just so plain wrong. Can you see why?

            2. The person could turn around, continue build the bridge, find another means of getting across the chasm… many ways to falsify that statement.

            3. That is the case only when a person is able to think for oneself. After all that travel on the bridge and being told otherwise, It takes a lot of guts to realize that the bridge is hanging in mid-air and one needs to turn back.

              So yes, there will be different responses to the bridge ending in mid air. It would be a rare individual who would see this situation for what it is, and not just postulate that he has reached the other side, or that there is more bridge, and simply step forward to fall in the chasm.

              This reminds me of Capt. Bill Robertson.

              .

            4. Maybe it’s not a chasm at all…I know it is easy to say…yet, there are some who “jumped into the unknown” (e.g Papaji, he has a book with the same title) and “explored” it. Me is also inclined to say after some experience that it can be explored.

            5. “Papaji’ example does not fit here. He did not travel the bridge. It may apply to Elizabeth Hamre though.

              .

          1. Geir
            Looks to be true what you say here. Don’t take it as a comparison as you attained OT8 while I didn’t. I can give only my example. After True meditation (the sitting part)
            spontaneously stopped, life became ‘meditation’ (here and present). Calm, love, fluid…no self. Still, something was missing. My perception of ‘reality’ was very different from ‘others’ around me. There was a kind of ‘drive’ to meet someone with
            similar or ‘higher’ consciousness. It happened so. In his ‘space’ some so far hidden,
            subtle, very powerful ‘layers’ started to be seen and ‘gone through’. As well as a very alive pure energy flow. With this I mean to tell you that “an OT8 not capable of taking oneself ‘all the way’ ” may or may not be true. Buddha did it alone (as far as we know it). I , at that point, needed a ‘mirror’ and a ‘push’. Much like working with
            people who have the same purpose and view, it is beneficial to do so with beings…hm. words stop here, you understand.

        3. This is cogent and incisive for those whom are in need of arriving at-cause over self ▬ I have only been OBE ( exteriorized in SCN nomenclature ) twice as I find no need for it now ~ after decades of believing and trying I finally arrived at a make it simple and just do perceptions from stuck in skull as described in Ultimate Test of a Thetan had forced me to do as much

          The Enemy condition when done on self as self-self interaction is sort of a trap of its own ▬ GPM-s are the least of it if one does that and will become a GF-40 Case — why bother with the wait? Just more stuff to list and null or for the time-efficient just blow it ~ and better yet create them at-will for someone whom one never met ( TLT ) with a rich repository of DB-s trailing like a biker-race in Blazria ○ best not to tangle with 1,000 DB-s though we can engage the person whom is trailing them

          I assure any of you whom are willing to contemplate that there are levels beyond not only 8 & 9 but as well which Hubbard was attempting to share with this dustball though for the non-studied we have only marginal gains when viewed from the sincere adherent whom is a natural to the studies — simple removal of the self—as a non-time-bound awareness—from the immediate field of the body is something I do not expect to occur though viewing existence from within the limited corporeal body can routinely produce Oh wows which are to be expected to occur until one loses the lust for excitement

          All things in balance

    1. “I now know who I am not, and am interested in finding out who I am“

      The enemy formula is: find out who you really are
      So the EP at the top of the bridge is being interested in applying the enemy formula?!?!

      That would be the first thing I would think of. Fricking enemy?!?!

      – its a wonder Flag has not been blown off the face of the earth?!
      On second thought, things are getting pretty desperate for the C of S and come to think of it, an OT 8 did pretty much raise de revolucion!

      Wow.

      1. Maria, I’m LMAO. what a find! “The enemy formula is: find out who you really are”. wow, is right. 🙂

        Heck, I found that out on the comm course way back when. I’m a spiritual being a “thetan”. then you go for years and get rid of who you aren’t huh? Well, we certainly all know that to some degree no matter how many years or money. although it was a true experience, like no other. Just happy to be free.
        And no, I wouldn’t help another to have the same experience as I did.

            1. haha, no. I just think she’s a good student and sincere. I would like to see her finish what she started in Scientology. I know the place she is in. Not as in I’m superior, but as in I’m familiar with the place. I spent 15 years in that place and it is uncomfortable, believing but never consummating. I have Scientology friends and they are not far from her. They may have friends in her hometown. Sometimes when a person sets their sights on a goal, they just need to see it through no matter what. I did and it made quite a bit of difference in my outlook. This is the gain that I would like her to have: To finish this walk that she started to her own satisfaction. I bet Geir would help as well.

            2. Chris “haha, no” Of course I was teasing and knew you’d laugh. Maybe it is too serious for another and sorry if feelings were hurt. T’would be nice since you know her and where she is on the bridge to help however you can. I think she is a dedicated person and has courage to speak out on this forum and take some criticism and give some, while continually learning. I’m here to learn from ya’all too.

            3. I do know and like Marildi. I like to think I know her heart as well. She and I are somehow more similar than some others here. Not in a good or bad way, just more similar in our heart’s desires.

          1. I totally agree Chris. I think I mentioned this before but one of the things I really liked about Scientology when I started was that you could do ALL of it BEFORE you died. Nice! And I did a LOT of it only stopping because I could no longer support the Church of Scientology and I also felt that I needed to do a thorough review of it against a broad spectrum of knowledge and by testing my own experience. I am almost done with that evolution and I have to tell you, it has been worth every bit of angst, discomfort and confusion blowing off. Nice!

            Where I sit now is very much pro-auditing as a practical means of addressing fixed and stuck attention, snarled up considerations and exploring the incredible world of ones own capabilities, mind, and states of consciousness. It is amazing. Its like stepping through myriad worlds as the viewpoint shifts and shifts. But I am an explorer at heart, so its all good as far as I am concerned!

            I still think that having this immense body of work available on an open source basis is a great idea, but not under a monopoly. It has value, immense value. But it cannot substitute for ones own path and reality.

            1. From where I sit

              (1) All knowledge is consistent no matter from what source.

              (2) Beyond every inconsistency there is a revelation.

              (3) Auditing is essentially non judgmental looking at things as they are.

              .

            2. Solo auditing was for me very empowering. Realizing that my life was now in my own hands nevermore to be subject to the whims and evaluations of another broke out a ceiling; a doubt barrier for me and I am changed.

      2. Maria,
        Aside from putting any emotion into it….you are right with the enemy formula….I made a comment on it earlier….but the solution is more communication, more understanding….I AM can be a stable I AM on the first dynamics (also there can be huge wins on all). I don’t know if this is the case…let’s ask Geir about it. Geir, what is the nature of that I AM ME concerning responsibility for all the dynamics?

    2. At the lower end of the Bridge one is not able enough to perceive who one truly is and what his barriers are. Every new level is done with a new gradient level of perception with new case coming into view that one didn’t even know one had. The barriers in OTVIII are stronger and more hidden. One does not truly understand what one’s barriers are until the goal is intended right up to the time it is achieved. The easier it is to overcome the barrier the more OT one is. In the end it is all about the goal, the intention, the barrier, and the frame of mind one wants to assume while achieving the goal.

  2. I’d leave very soon and looked for a way to continue outside the Church.
    Actually, I did that anyhow, even without being anywhere near OT VIII 😉

    1. Disagree. One clears all misunderstandings, bad feelings, whatever in him/herself, no matter if one caused them or another as they will stay with the person….Geir is doing it very well….clearing things FOR ALL !! One can start a new “path” on which the problem can still be there….Geir….I trust you…you as an OT8 confront and make people confront…on all dynamics…AS there is basically ONE-ness.

  3. I often see people who are too afraid to confront the fact that they did not get what they wanted out of scientology. I suspect this may account for the depression and thoughts of suicide. I wish it were easier for these people to move on and accept the fact that they weren’t treated fairly – in my opinion by both the church and by l ron hubbard.

    What would I do in such a situation? It’s impossible for me to answer, not having been in similar circumstances.

  4. Intriguing post, Geir.
    Is it a true reality what you state here as the end phenomenon on Ot 8, “I now know who I am not, and am interested in finding out who I am“?
    – –
    RockmyStar

      1. I am in shock…
        Truly for the first time i know of!
        If I did not have a reason to smoke a joint, I now have one. 🙂
        – –
        I did my best in getting hold of Mr Miscavige the other day. First I got hold of the MAA public at AOSHEU, Copenhagen. She brushed me off even though I clearly stated I want and need help – hung up on me. I then tried 2 times via phone and answering machine to get hold of the leader of this church. Then I wrote a report via RTC and reached towards him at the end. This is a week ago.
        – –
        I have valuable data for him and others.
        What the fuck do I do? Sorry my language.
        – –
        Slack enjoying a fantastic joint

      2. Right. From the I AM (no-thing) as a core one is expanding, clearing up it all – after peeling the onion, “one” is “flowing” through consensus layers….actually this is what is happening here “with me”….I don’t know about you…how is it with you, Geir? Until there is full Realization, that seems to be the case….my reality here.

      3. GEIR since this is your blog I need to ask if the opportunity arises again would you give me your permission to lit into Vinay? By now you know I am not a gentleman and definitely not a lady… and because of that I don’t fallow rules or regulations. And a good zesty invigorating fight have to have personality, character and that only can happen if the rules are not present.. hitting under the belt, kidney punches, biting the nose and definitely scratching should be included and ball kicking would be the highlight of the fight.. up to you!!

  5. “Letting anyone halt at the end result of OT 8 is cruel…If you were in such a situation, would you…Or what?”

    I would train! Training is one half of the Bridge. It gives 50% of the potential gains of Scientology, and that seems to be the missing datum in the rationale of the OP.

    Do you know of an actual example of some individual who, besides the auditing side, also did the training side of the Bridge and put it into reasonably extensive practice (much as other paths to freedom and enlightenment require) who yet feels they did not get handled what they originally wanted to?

    1. Marildi: I would train! Training is one half of the Bridge. It gives 50% of the potential gains of Scientology, and that seems to be the missing datum in the rationale of the OP.

      Chris: What percentage of the Bridge to Total Freedom would you say that you are missing Marildi?

      1. I don’t want to get into a discussion of my own personal “percentage” of gain as that is irrelevant to the OP (and I don’t intend to be introverted by that). But I will say that what I did was more or less equal amounts of both sides of the Bridge, and truthfully I got more from training than auditing.

        The point is that achieving what one wants in life isn’t just a matter of eliminating the inner barriers (case), it’s also a matter of understanding the principles that relate to the know-how of life. And that is what the potential of training and its application delivers.

          1. Agree with Geir. And also, Life is more than the Mind. Ever-changing.
            No matter how “trained” one is if one doesn’t get up to the point of
            Realization that one is Life and is “handling” Life in any instant of life.
            Without “principles” in the mind in most cases.

        1. Scientology data is riddled with inconsistencies as I pointed out in detail. So training without the ability to spot inconsistencies could be a liability.

          .

          .

        2. Marildi, I guess I don’t agree. Not really with any of your points. And my question? It was pertinent to and directly addressed your post. Perpetually promoting the sanctity and success of Scientology become pigheaded especially in light of the lack of a testimonial of your personal success using that Standard Technology.

          Standard Scientology Technology is not workable, it is circular.

          1. Sorry to say, Chris, but what I have learned from your posts is that you don’t understand enough about Scientology to be able to put what I have or haven’t personally gained into the correct perspective. You have your fixed ideas that don’t match the actuality of Scientology.

            But aside from that, the last several times I’ve tried to discuss with you what you think is contradictory or in error about Scientology itself, you ended up blatantly dropping the exchange, right about when it started to flush out that you had not correctly understood what you were critical of.

            1. Wow after reading this “fixed ideas that don’t match the actuality of Scientology.” Why, scientology is all fixed ideas in all the words he wrote. Accept and can’t reject and you better fix these ideas in your mind, no question, or else.

            2. Dee, you are describing the corruption of Scientology – whether that was done by management or LRH himself. If you really understand the basic principles of the philosophy and the tech it underlies, you know that Scn is not at all fixed ideas. Just the opposite.

              But one thing I’ve observed on this blog is that those who are generally critical have not trained in it and applied it enough to get a conceptual understanding of what it is. And the posters who have some training and experience with the tech are generally highly favorable. I think this is a telling observation.

            3. Scientology is what is. You may separate pure from corrupted in your head only. Open your eyes and see what is there.

              .

            4. Hot off the press, here is what someone who has much more than a theoretical understanding of Scientology (much less a tiny fraction of that) has to say:

              “First, I believe that L Ron Hubbard developed a workable spiritual-based psychotherapy that when applied as prescribed – according to its axioms and fundamental laws – routinely produces a well and happy, self-determined, unrepressed being…Doing so outside structured, policy-controlled Scientology is far less complicated… There is little need…for sundry evaluation (under the justification of ‘ethics’, ‘pts/sp handling’, ‘justice’, or other organizational concerns) that inevitably enters when the process is complicated by later policies, and even tech, that stray from and contradict the laws and axioms which make auditing, and the Bridge, work. I have objective and subjective reality on the workability of Hubbard’s technology.” (Marty Rathbun)

              http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/01/26/mission-statement/

            5. Here’s a line I liked from the same Marty’s post:
              “I still believe Scientologists (of whatever stripe) have to make these choices: integrate or disintegrate, evolve or dissolve, transcend or descend.”

            6. Differentiate, Chris. I wasn’t appealing to his authority, I was using him as an example of someone’s EXPERIENCE

            7. Would that be an inspiration for an addition to the Discussion Policy? A “call it BULLSHIT” clause?

            8. Vin-” Scientology is what is. You may separate pure from corrupted in your head only. Open your eyes and see what is there.”

              Yes, that’s true for me, thank you. I will continue to keep my eyes open and look.

            9. I believe that is a false assumption and not an observation. As an example; we have discussed the Admin Tech before. I am far more trained and experienced in the Admin Tech than you. I criticize it. You defend it – no matter what I brought up of facts and logic, you still defended it pigheadedly. Remember? I think that your statement above is an excellent example of a brush-off thought stopping technique.

            10. Firstly, I was referring to auditing tech, not admin tech. As for admin tech, if you read the recent blog thread on Marty’s post on KSW 1, you will see just as many experienced in admin tech who take my viewpoint – i.e. that what is needed is an understanding of the basic theory of admin as well as a conceptual understanding of it overall. I don’t think they are just being pigheaded – many of them are perfectly willing to criticize the outpoints too. They just know how to apply policy the basic way LRH prescribed – against expansion and purpose. In our discussion way back when, you were referring to individual policies, and I was looking at general principles

              Secondly, my observation about those who have and haven’t done tech training pretty well (if not entirely) separates the adherents from the critics – so I do not feel it is a mere assumption, thought-stopper or brush-off on my part. I don’t know of any of the regular critics here who are auditor trained and experienced. Can you name even one?

            11. Since I’m rather new here and don’t know you, let’s start off with you, since that seems to be your criterion. What auditing tech training and counseling have you had?

            12. “And the posters who have some training and experience with the tech are generally highly favorable. I think this is a telling observation.”
              It makes me happy that you see so well. I had training and counseling equal on both sides to clear including higher levels from an independent. It seems you are quite sensitive about the tech and the words and sorry it got serious for you. I don’t see any writings written in stone. The auditor’s code has the greatest importance in auditing, imo.

            13. I want to re-iterate that it isn’t just training I keep emphasizing – it is in-the-chair experience with the tech where one gets to really understand the validity of it. That is really no different from many other fields, where experience makes ALL the difference. That quote of Marty Rathbun that I just posted is an example of what I mean. And as most of us know, it certainly isn’t that Marty thinks LRH was perfect or that there aren’t aspects of Scientology that lead to doom – and I am not defending everything either, no matter how many people assume that I am.

            14. I can’t help but take up..
              M – “and I am not defending everything either, no matter how many people assume that I am.”
              Should you be familiar with the tech, and I won’t quote it; When you continually defend or say you are not doing something, you probably are! My take, only if I believe everything Hubbard said.

            15. deE, My wish would be that Marildi quit defending so hard and begin to take back her freedom in this area; this subject of Scientology that she has worked so hard to help. No one is a better researcher or more dedicated. I wish I could twin with her on course.

            16. I am auditor trained and I am intensely critical, so critical that even Alanzo refuses to ask me any questions any more. Yes. The auditing processes do produce excellent results on many people. That is true. And by report by Independent auditors, those gains are not dampened by the machinations of the Church.

              But for you to say that a solo auditor is not trained is absurd. An auditor is an auditor. Period. Have you done the solo auditor course? Do you even know what is on those training materials? How many hours of auditing do you think a solo auditor clocks in by the time they get to OT8? THOUSANDS. But that doesn’t count? Nonsense. Solo auditing is every bit as demanding as auditing another person in a different body.

              I concur with the Mission Statement Marty has made. However, you forgot to add that he closes with the statement: I do not wish to unsettle the beliefs that people hold if they wish to remain in the static comfort of their Scientology beliefs. Those beliefs are just as valid, and protected constitutionally, as more traditional, accepted faiths. You may find some level of solace in the validation of those beliefs on this blog. But, the theme of this forum is just as its title says, Moving On Up A Little Higher. So along with the validation will always come questioning and exploring and the attempts to broaden horizons and transcend. So, if you wish to remain in the static comfort of your belief system, I suggest you not visit here. It could be unsettling for you.

            17. Maria: “But for you to say that a solo auditor is not trained is absurd. An auditor is an auditor. Period. Have you done the solo auditor course?”

              I have never said that a solo auditor is not trained. And yes I have done the solo auditor course.

              My point has always been not just about training but about getting experience with the tech so that you have personal understanding of how and why it works and can thus see that the tech and the underlying principles are true. And, notwithstanding a relatively few exceptions, those who do get experience see that it does what it claims to do.

              I’ve also posted many comments to the effect that I believe in continuing the evolution of it and, just as Marty puts it , moving on up a little higher. Your evaluation of me that I “wish to remain in the static comfort of your [my] belief system” is simply that – your evaluation. But I will admit, that sometimes I feel I’m spending my time and energy in the wrong place, with people who have a whole different viewpoint.

            18. Marildi, the primary inconsistency that I see with your stance that you are constantly making yourself right and all the critics wrong. It is like a service fac.

              I believe that I understand and know about Scientology tech.than you do. It is not the memorization of various mechanics that counts. It is the ability to see what is consistent and what is not to overcome the mesmerization that any authority exerts.

              .

            19. MARILDI: It was MARTY who said: “wish to remain in the static comfort of your belief system” — I really cannot take credit for that statement.

            20. Marildi –

              I admire you for sticking to your guns. I do not believe that you would ever use Scientology harmfully, nor would you allow anyone else to do so. You’ve already received “The Alanzo Pass” from me directly. I would think this would be enough for you to never feel that you had to defend your beliefs here, or anywhere else on the Internet.

              Next time someone tries to rub your nose in some Scientology poo, you just tell them “Hey! BACK OFF, Bud. I’ve got an Alanzo Pass to be a Scientologist and if you’ve got a problem with that, then you take it up with Alanzo personally.”

              Then you just let me handle them.

              Okay?

              Alanzo

          2. If one wants to go round the mind, the products of the mind, that is
            the outside of the wheel of life, one can do that. And thus make a circle and end up where one started from. But the wheel has an inside, that is the Heart. The YOU.

      1. Okay, thanks. Not just to argue, Geir, but two things occur to me. First, did these highly trained auditors actually accumulate a lot of hours in the chair?

        Secondly, you say they “crashed” but that is something different from what I thought you were saying in the OP, which had to do with people not getting handled what they wanted to. Certainly, many in the upper levels have crashed, and not surprisingly when you consider the gross out-tech of the 6-month refreshers (just one among many other severe outpoints).

          1. Well, again, there are various factors involved, so it is hard to come to a definite conclusion either way.

            You might find this radical of me, but I consider that if someone did train and practice auditing to any reasonable degree, unless he were completely “done in” as a being by the MAL-practice of Scientology, he would still have the wisdom to know that the journey doesn’t stop with Scientology. And he would have gained that wisdom from Scientology itself – IMHO, aside from LRH’s statements to this effect.

            1. So, back to a main point; Don’t you think it’s a tad cruel to leave a person with That EP after some 10-30 years of hard work and after forking out some USD 200K-300K?

            2. It seems like you’re talking about two different things. One is “getting to the end of the road, still possibly having major issues you’d like to have handled”, and the other is “finding out who you are”.

            3. I don’t think Hubbard was able to put the question, “Who am I?” to rest. He himself did not know from what I see.

              .

            4. To give you a more direct answer, what I was trying to say before is that assuming (and this is definitely an assumption) the Bridge itself hasn’t been corrupted (too much), by the time a person has achieved the gains to be had, that person should have (1) the willingness and (2) the ability – to find his own way from there.

              I think that LRH came to that realization when he researched OT VIII and with that level it is now inherent in Scientology itself. In other words, its purpose isn’t to spoon feed an individual (using your recent metaphor to me :)) beyond the point where he can carry on without needing anybody or anything to tell him what to do from that point forward.

            5. I have to agree with Geir here. It is more than cruel what the Church is doing in taking the “faithful” up to OT8 and parking them there. The deceit and betrayal is almost unfathomable. It would be one thing if they said “OK, this is where you take over. If you can’t, or fumble, come back for help.”

              But to say what they do (in essence: “You now have to do this and this and… before we’ll let you on to OT9), which is to lie, deceive and betray the trust of that OT… that just begs a lightning bolt, or two.

              As far as trained auditors who fall apart after, all I can say is that “trained robot” might be more appropriate as with all that training the person did not learn to first trust their own judgement.

            6. 2ndxmr: “It would be one thing if they said ‘OK, this is where you take over. If you can’t, or fumble, come back for help.'”

              The above is basically what I am saying too. And in no way am I agreeing with what the CHURCH is doing. Of course it’s cruel – and worse! That to me goes without saying. There’s no one here who disagrees with it, which is why I sort of receive it as a more or less rhetorical statement on this blog.

            7. 2ndxmr, p.s. Great point about trained auditors who fall apart. I was assuming that they must have been broken spiritually by the out-tech in their auditing. But what you say makes more sense – if they had really understood the materials as regards the mind and spirit, they would probably not have been vulnerable to “crashing”.

            8. It is an inconsistency that these trained auditors did not benefit from their training, whatever the reason.

              .

            9. MARILDI: But what you say makes more sense – if they had really understood the materials as regards the mind and spirit, they would probably not have been vulnerable to “crashing”.

              This is BULLSHIT. This is the same think I ran into in the C of S over and over and over again — its okay to ram an OT, its okay to be cruel, its okay to fuck with them and scream at them and tell they are a pathetic lot and they need to do their bridge over again.

              Well guess what? People who have had and done a lot of auditing are not cold, disengaged, unfeeling, unresponsive, perfect little angels. You want to see some fury? Hell hath no fury like a freed being. It is only tempered by the fact that they are trained solo auditors and they are not stupid. Consider the impact of Geir Isene on the scene of the Church of Scientology. Consider his joy in his relationship with Annette. This not cold and dispassionate. This is full on joy, passion, fury, focused like a magnifying glass to burn the house down.

              As for me, having done through OT4, I can tell you that when I unleash my fury (rarely), people dodge and they are enturbulated for days and days afterwards. Out of respect for others I choose not to let er rip!

            10. Maria, that is quite the re-interpretation of what I said. I only meant that an understanding of the principles of mind and spirit would more than likely help someone who has been mishandled to see what had happened, and/or to be able to figure out where to go from there – knowing that something was very amiss. I’ve heard many accounts of auditors who have done this very type of thing.

            11. Maria, Love it!
              The lights are blinking brightly beyond the sun and the moon. All is glorious in it’s brilliance and blissful in it’s state.

            12. Maria, If you want to throw down a gauntlet, you’re welcome to throw it in my direction. I’m not given to pass up the opportunity to enjoy days of enturbulation.

              I’m also not given to internecine wars, especially with those I consider combatants on my side. But we are in a new paradigm, for sure, where the ability to toss lightning bolts is soon to re-emerge and maybe we’ll laugh a bit as we smolder. Normally I also have a restrained pugnacity, and I really do have more important things to do, but I neither mind tasting nor spilling blood, so if you’ve got some charge you wish to create pixels out of, I’m here to receive them. In the end maybe we’ll laugh. I’m pretty damned sure I won’t cry.

              As far as what I said, and what Marildi interpreted, anybody who has trained and yet can get caved in by the charges they have the tech to resolve has missed at least one important thing. That may be the ability or willingness to allow themselves to apply the tech to their own lives. That would be the robot: able to deliver a session and apply the tech there (in a session environment) but not be able to apply it to their own circumstances. When and where that ability is gained, or whether it’s simply decision may be a point of variance, but the point is by time a person gets to 8, should they not have either been empowered or have attained a point of self-empowerment in dealing with charge as it affects them?

              As far as putting a solo auditor into the category of ability of a professional auditor, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Yes, the solo auditor is an auditor but there is no comparison of ability between an auditor only trained on solo and a levels trained auditor. I’ve seen enough of both to know the score. There was a reason, back in the ’80s why all solo auditors with only solo training were sent to the academy to train 0-IV. Out of a few dozen I saw on that path, not one was able to take in a Grades pc and not botch their sessions any less time than any average trainee. That, despite logging hundreds, or thousands of solo hours getting up to solo NOTs. So while there may be exceptions, that was the general rule – solo auditors had generally not learned to audit well enough to make it through the top.

              There was little that happened in the Church that I didn’t question. Putting solo auditors back to the acadmey levels was a thing I did question – until I observed their abilities as auditors. It should not have been a blanket order, but based on observations I expect there would have been very few to whom the order would not have applied.

            13. I am delighted what you said about solo auditors was only your reality and not the fact. But I agree with you on that: by the time a person gets up to the OT levels should be able to handle anything what comes into their daily life.. I know some who do and doing very well.. The tech is simple and easy to use,.. but people tooooo lazy to continue and to blame is much easier, and acting crying the blues playing the victim is pathetic and the cause of their misery is self no other person.

            14. Marildi: The people on this blog work VERY VERY concertedly to discern and learn and evolve. You do them an extreme disservice by insisting that they have MUs or do not understand about the mind and spirit because they have not done all of the auditor training.

              As far as being more stable, yes, auditors have a great ability to manage communication. But I have seen many auditors crushed under the heel of the C of S, in a state of total collapse because of wrong indications, wrongful dismissals, harsh ethics and disconnection. And what do you suppose happened to LRH along the way? What do you suppose he meant by OT alone? Do you seriously think he was always 100% stable? Never hostile? Never despairing? I think he hurt many times.

              I have experienced total collapse this past few years, HEARTBREAK that hurt so badly that all I could do was cry. And for me, reading any more LRH was simply out of the question unless it was to work through it against other works. And now, Geir writes this post and to tell you the truth my rage is at a fever pitch. Interested in doing the ENEMY formula!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as the EP? No wonder the OTs are treated so badly in the Church.

              Yes, I had studied all of the materials of Scientology. But the fact is that the gains I have experienced since then did not come from Scientology. PERIOD. They came from this blog, from my personal experiences, from the materials from which Scientology was originally drawn, and from good hearted people like you, and the people who post on these blogs and participate in my life.

              It is true, however, that if you want to be a professional auditor, then you should put in the hours and the study to be a professional auditor.

              Marty has opened a big, big door by surveying people about what they experience and understand PERSONALLY. Not what LRH says about it all. And that was most enlightening for me for the answers were so individual and different from person to person.

            15. Maria: “You do them an extreme disservice by insisting that they have MUs or do not understand about the mind and spirit because they have not done all of the auditor training.”

              This is again putting what I’ve said in a very different light. I have pointed out specific times that I’ve observed such things as an MU or a viewpoint that something in particular is contradictory where I do not see that is the case. And I’ve made the observation (which no one has refuted, btw) that generally speaking those who are critical of Scn overall are not experienced auditors. That fact should tell us something, IMHO.

              And I have never denied what the C of S is doing and has done, nor do I say that LRH was perfect although that is something that I see more clearly now than I used to, thanks to this blog in large part. Like you, I have posted many comments stating how much I have learned and gained here. I’ve even referred to it as my current “bridge”.

              But what I said in my earlier comment about whether this is still the place I should be is something I need to look at. I feel the way Vinaire and Alanzo must feel on Marty’s blog when they post there and typically get “piled on”. They are coming from very different places than the vast majority of commenters there, who do feel Scientology for the most part makes sense and that there is more to be valued in it than not.

              It’s seems to be pretty much the opposite with me on this blog – the majority do not have a mostly favorable viewpoint of Scn. But I agree with you that they are good hearted. It’s just that my basic viewpoint is not aligned and furthermore I don’t appreciate all the evaluations of me personally.

            16. Marildi, “It’s just that my basic viewpoint is not aligned and furthermore I don’t appreciate all the evaluations of me personally.”
              Most of us are living in the real world now and have to deal with real people, which you are also. Even Isene would like to blog about other ideas or topics. At least here we have some commonality and discussing should be enlightening or entertaining IMO while getting used to others viewpoints, since we are away from the church by choice, and all it now represents.

              Karen #1, OT, say’s it so well on Marty’s blog:
              “After spending decades being FORCED to think a certain way, ACT a Certain way, friend/unfriend by order of who I could even speak to and who I couldn’t, even having endured the horrors of Old Gilman House, and basically making myself as robotic as they come (my own doing) I love what you wrote Marty.”

              “I love the fresh air. I love transcending everything I was so imprisoned in and I see the benefit of having a 360 degree view rather than tunnel vision.”

            17. Maria, re: Mary’s post and commenters. I thought this was one of his best and was glad to see it too.

            18. deE, I thought his posting of Tom Martiniano’s KSW letter was the best. It will get the most TA because it is the very best and purest example of someone with “no other fish to fry.” Most sincere and heartfelt letter which also happens to align with KSW.

              Reason? Puts KSW out there in plain English in a way to let the inconsistencies show up. For example, he said “yes, it’s better that people blindly follow LRH than stumbling around blindly on their own.” This was a beautiful piece of writing. I could have wrote that but it would have been sarcastic instead of with the love that Tom put into it.

              We don’t need to fight Scientology, we just need to make it better known.

          1. Vin,
            Don’t you think that it is inconsistent only at a surface level? Could it be that at the level of the first consideration this is exactly what they want? But they are not aware of that. Indeed one can dramatize up to
            a point when dramatization stops and “alive life” starts to take control.

    2. More important than training on data is to be able to spot and resolve inconsistencies in data, regardless of whether it has to do with Scientology or with one’s case.

      .

      1. “Knowledge is more than data, it is also the ability to draw conclusions.”

        “Knowingness is a capability for truth; it is not data”

        “Knowingness would be self-determined knowledge.”

        1. “Knowingness is a capability for truth, it is not data”.
          Example: no thinking process is necessary for observing what life is delivering in a given moment of life and when the observation is right, one simply responds (“knows”) what/how to respond.

      2. I find it true. Training can start from being consistent with what is. Anywhere in life.

  6. The training; the setup for this comes early in life before discovering the Bridge to Total Freedom. We are conditioned to put our faith and trust and confidence in a structure of reality which is outside ourselves — a real world out there, if you will. This is a mistaken idea.

    The Bridge to My Total Freedom” has involved my own personal re-tread and re-train of all of this nonsense.

    God has breathed into us Life; but the Devil has given us our Ego. (metaphorically speaking of course.)

    Thank you to Geir and each person here who challenged me to revamp my ability to observe. I am doing very well now in a way that I expect to continue for a while.

    1. Good to hear Chris. It seems only the uneducated or naive in the workings and controls of the church cannot understand the dangers thereof and are stuck into the past.

      1. Thank you deE. There is a stability of being moored in harbor and there is another kind of stability in knowing the sea and how to sail. Having the choice of either, I can write that it is surely fun to sail!

        1. Yeah, but until you are so advanced as to be able to sail without one you still need a boat. 🙂

            1. Shove off to sail – without a boat…? Aw, now you’re changing the analogy. Or maybe mixing your metaphors. I thought that was a cardinal sin in your book. 🙂

            2. The repartee is yours alone. 100% of spiritual freedom lies in crossing the Bridge to Total Freedom. Right? Without the 100% workable technology of Scientology, man is doomed to stumble around in the dark for eternity, right?

              Being a true believer and walking the Bridge to Total Freedom requires an important amount of commitment and dedication. Your “do as I say; not as I do” approach is inconsistent in light of that necessary commitment. You can believe what you want, but I am going to call it that when I see it.

              OSA won’t be pleased with me, but I can live with that.

            3. This post of yours is the perfect example of your fixed ideas about both me and Scientology, which no matter how many times I’ve tried to explain are mere assumptions and misunderstandings on your part, you keep repeating. I’ve lost interest.

            4. Comment to Chris. Don’t be too worried about OSA. They are soooooooo busy with 3 books out just this month, all the worldwide press and a Federal trial coming up with fraud (by an OT8). They won’t be looking at you or me this year anyway. Granted they aren’t please with any of us, but we don’t exist for that.

          1. You are what you think you are, advanced? MEST boat or spiritual? One can also practice mock-ups, no?

          1. Thanks deE. As I correspond with people and as I read about what man has known and figured out in the past, I’ve become sure that each person’s walk in life belongs only to themself. We figure out what we figure out and that’s the whole of it. Even if man develops mighty technology that takes his body to other worlds, it seems he will continue to wonder at his place in the scheme of things.

            People seem to be able to rise up in wisdom no matter the walk that they choose. People also seem to be able to remain dense as hell no matter the discipline to which they adhere.

            1. Yes, Chris, this is the core philosophy of my exquisite improvisation in the interverse!

    2. Chris dear old kid “We are conditioned to put our faith and trust and confidence in a structure of reality which is outside ourselves — a real world out there, if you will. This is a mistaken idea….”””
      right you are…. 10000 times yes. one needs to take the power back which one so easily given to others that they know better..

        1. Chris…..Call,me, we can talk of OT8 there should be no mystery what is about, in my reality that knowledge should have been included in all the basic materials. After all scientology advertised spirituality yet they have withold basic information in order to intrigue, to cause mystery- secrets and that of course pulled people in since every one love to be privy to secrets, that pulls like magnet people want to know, have. It is a interesting phenomenon when a person is offered a secret that person feels valuable, because was trusted that others thought of him wort to have that info.. that make him equal to that person. Secret is like meat to the wolf.. cant resist it… Bigger the secrets-mystery because of that they hold lots of MASS and the being feels huge stimulation by that and gets stock to that mass.. The must have is created it is implanted re-stimulation..

  7. A person might “halt” after OT8 if their entire journey was solely governed by scientology and its doctrinal directions. A person who was happy to continue the journey under his/her own steam might well keep on traveling. Mileages undoubtedly vary.

    1. This is pretty much what Marty said on his blog a little while ago about what to do when you reach 8 and there is no 9 or 10 or beyond.

      It’s also the conclusion I came to when Marty announced (18 months ago?) that the Church did not have a releasable product for above OT8. At that time I decided that the field was open for us all to contribute to what lays beyond.

      In essence, that was my “wants handled”: I wanted to be in charge of my own destiny. I had given over that right-of-charge to the Church after I read Dianetics and saw there was a path that had been started (and finished, as we were told).

      With that lie exposed I had not a second of remorse at making the decision to go my way and I’ve been enjoying just about every thought since.

      Like Marildi said above and I and other trained individuals have said before, auditor training can help enormously in stabilizing a being and it constantly provides me with a knowledge base to handle charges I encounter in routine life. But much more, it gives me the strength to not fear or worry particularly about charge I expect to encounter in striking out at the universe.

    2. Hello PT…. I have never given up solo auditing after I left the church.. Because of the continual solo sessions I have had the most incradible adventure and life… Here is a article if you care to read one persons spiritual journey it is in my blog. I am glad you are a traveler…

      To walk the walk of the Solo Auditor: the Path of Enlightenment, The self-discovery.

  8. Truth Revealed…how ironic.

    I got great wins from my auditing, much like you Geir…I just knew early on that something wasn’t right and luckily took my wins and ran. Can’t imagine pushing up through OTVIII like you said to handle something and then realizing you are at the end of the road…and still not handled. Wow.

    1. No one told any one that they have to stop auditing… by OT 8 one really learned how to solo audit.. just because it did not occure to those OT to continue… just to bad… they are still at the stage of being a victim and blaming others for the condition they are in… and I put those conditions very low on the tone-scale..

  9. I hear you, Geir.

    I think that what you are doing, exactly what you are doing especially in this post, and in the comments, is the exact right thing to be doing. It takes a lot of strength of character to do what you are doing.

    A lot of people have been helped by you and your approach. A lot more will be, too, if you just keep it up.

    So keep going G. You are doing the exact right thing.

    Alanzo

      1. ESMB is a post-scientology culture from a different time, when people were fairgamed for even discussing Scientology on the Internet, and had to fight to keep going. It is a war-wounded kind of environment.

        This is a new time, and a new environment. And this new environment belongs to people like you and others with a similar, positive, approach.

        The war is over. And now a lot of people have to figure out where to go next. Your approach is what they need.

        Oh, and I almost forgot to put this:

        In my opinion.

        There, I said it. (:>)

        Alanzo

            1. Is it a war now? The Church is looking more and more desperate. It has given up a lot of ground. I guess it can’t measure up to the power of Internet. Its power came from confidentiality and a hidden data line.

              .

        1. I’m glad you feel the war is over, Al. We can still hear some skirmishing going on a blog over, but the “homeland” here, the land of the free is pretty safe and ready for rebuilding.

          It’d be a shame if the old warriors like you just sat the swords aside and settled for a life of drinking Victory gin. The wounds that have left scars should be given more balm than just an ‘attaboy. Some may suggest the Old Warrior salve (OWs). Me, I’d suggest a simple solo process of “Look at the thought” to address a charge. Unfortunately it doesn’t come with a handy acronym like Old Warrior salve has, but it’s a very effective balm when applied to troubled spots. Hope you try it and find it useful.

          Now, about that sword… Plowshare or bridge girder?

  10. “If you were in such a situation, would you do everything the church asked of you in the hope of a new level released?” NO
    “Or would you revolt?” YES in time.
    “Or what?” I’d feel stuck to do what the church says to do and that’s to help others on the path and help the church grow. I’d be a bit shocked if I had any senses left at all and then see how I could get out of that situation. Actually I saw that early on and was feel fortunate that I didn’t have the money to find this out.
    I can appreciate those that made it to the high or highest levels and since those people have seen what is, some of those are the ones who will in turn, help bring the truth to light regarding the dangers of scientology.

    1. I would add, that that is why the internet and blogs are growing, while actually helping people understand, acknowledging their wins/loses and it helps them move on their own path of finding out who they really are in present time. 🙂

    2. This is the kind of data. Hubbard and the Church fought to keep confidential. It was simply to protect business interest. It had nothing to do with endangering a person’s case.

  11. Would you do everything the church asked of you in the hope of a new level released? No. Absolutely not.

    Or would you revolt? Absolutely. But in an effective, but nevertheless deadly way. Mahatma Gandhi comes to mind. From an unassailable position, I would work to break the back of monopoly, secretiveness, abuse, and coercion. And I would work to support the use of the beneficial materials in an atmosphere of transparency and integrity. I would welcome the scalding criticisms and the passionate dedication both and so help to forge a new paradigm. And this is exactly what I have been doing since I read your resignation Geir.

    God bless you for continuing to stand at the end of that bridge with your great good humor, candor and willingness to share and be home to those who cry, who rail, and who hurt, welcoming all with kind hands, generosity of spirit and your good, open heart

  12. The ep of ot8 is so disturbing. Spiritual hostage is a perfect analog. I should say at this point I have no interest in finding out “who I am”. What a dead end! I am a many anyway. What I am interested in is becoming something i wasnt when i started, to keep evolving, to keep growing. I get so angry reading this. I am so grateful for getting out after one year. Fucking horrifying thinking of being around it for another day.

    1. I would think that OT 8 should have put a person in a position that he could continue looking for himself much like what one does with KHTK… spotting and dissolving inconsistencies on all dynamics (so to say), and not stick him in the first dynamic.

      By the way, my answer to “who I am” is that a person is the resultant of all the considerations that make him up. That has been quite a workable definition for me.

      .

      1. I’m not so sure I’d ask ‘who I am’ and opposed to ‘what I am.

        I am a seeker of understanding. I’m satisfied with that as a label, if I need one.

  13. Allmy life , I never asked myself “who I am?” I never raised the question, because there was simply no need for me to do so. The first time in my life I heard about it was in SCN. Enemy condition. Find out who you are.
    Its bullshit. The question is a trap. It introverts extremely and it makes a BIG mystery where one sticks to. Scientology Marketing. But not only Scientology.
    I even allege one can never find out who he is, because the answer is not available.
    For me it is totally adequate to have a first and surname.
    keep it simple.
    🙂

  14. BEING is the here and now. When one starts on a journey to find the answer to
    “who am I”, one finally ends up in the here and now. There are experiences on the way and one can get stuck in them, mostly by fear or indulgence. One can
    lose the ” I “, that is the core filter on the way….equally create it again out of the need to be “somebody”, as if how can I function in life…others continually label me, so ‘ I ‘ go along with it….but when Being and an underlying Flow is “strong”, there is no “turning back”, no more fear of “survival”…..more and more
    trust that the totality of Life really Cares and Knows…..the answer to the question “Who/what am I?” is in the moment…Life itself….my experience.

    1. Being is expanding through continuous Change. Even without the sense of an ” I “, there is a sense of Change by an interraction with what IS. Here and Now (with a Flow “further and further”). Let’s say, there is “another” who also has this “sense of Change”. “They” “meet”, that is Change meeting Change with the underlying same substance of the Flow (Life). So different experiences arise, from the “physical” up to very “spiritual”, can even have the experience of co-no-thingness. My reality, sorry for not being able to describe it better but words are limited when it comes to beyond the mind experi-
      ences.

    2. I look at it as de-condensation of “I” which also appears as exteriorization. It is a release of fixed attention that one was not even aware of.

      .

  15. I have a couple of notes after reading through the comments;

    1. Maria’s observation that the EP of OT 8 is a person Interested In Doing The Enemy Condition: Brilliant. That is exactly what it is. I have updated the OP accordingly.

    2. On the auditor training and experience of solo auditors, consider this; A Solo NOTs auditor must master most aspects of the tech and know it cold, such as Ruds, Listing and Nulling, Date/Locate, Rehab tech, Out-Int handling, PTS handling, Assessments of all kinds, chain running, O/W pulling, etc. This in addition to scores of specific handlings for NOTs such as full BT clearing, ridges handling, waking up dormant BTs,, etc, etc, etc – all known by heart (no references available for any of the confidential handlings – including the PTS handling on BTs). This is demanding Far More than of any auditor running processes on other people.

    1. The Condition of Enemy

      When a person is an avowed and knowing enemy of an individual, a group, project or organization, a Condition of Enemy exists.

      The formula for the Condition of Enemy is just one step:

      Find out who you really are.

      I always thought that the person of the Enemy formula was to help one realize that one was being an enemy in the true sense of certain positive efforts.

      Similarly, I always thought that the purpose of the Treason formula was to help one realize that one was in treason in the true sense to certain positive efforts.

      It was a very specific thing.

      .

    2. Agreed on all your points. Have had in mind all of this for the last hour. Spot-on what you write about training. Also, you have access to
      all viewpoints as you have been going through it all. In a can-do case,
      no more further training is necessary. My reality.

    3. Isene: “…This is demanding Far More than of any auditor running processes on other people.”

      There is certainly a huge demand on the auditor there. Maybe too much for most solo auditors until they have learned to audit on the levels. That was the conclusion that I came too when I saw the OTs train in the academy. Where a solo auditor was able to do all you’ve listed, I applaud.

      1. I for one was easily able to do all that and then some. Most of the other solo auditors I have come to known were in the same league.

  16. Now, it does not seem so bad that there is a state with the given EP. And I can imagine a lot of mental work is needed to find out who you are not. Only I would expect the answer to “Who I am” from the “first real OT level”, “Truth revealed”. otherwise I would say, there is an inconsistency and a misnomer regarding the name of the state and so it is a serious outpoint.
    On the other hand there are a couple of books on the subject who you are by the sage Sri Ramana Maharsi. One can buy for a few bucks and can really find out who truly he or she is.
    On the experience level it could very well be that while you are in this body you just can’t fully and utterly experience who you really are. So no courses or auditing sessions can get you there.
    But logically if you know who you are not it would be quite obvious to know who you really are. Isn’t it true? I think in a way it is quite obvious.

  17. OK. OT8 EP: It is condition of enemy but on a different level. Maybe you can work your way up through the conditions from there and all is as simple as that.

  18. When I say on a different level, I mean you are not an enemy of the… family, company, nation, humanity, etc, up the dynamics, but Geir knows what dynamic this enemy formula covers… for me it can make sense…

  19. Great posts and comments! I like the “enemy condition” – makes sense.
    —————————————————————————————–
    Yes, it is cruel! To end at THAT after all the endeavor must be like a slap in the face, like a “am I in the wrong movie?”- thing. Betrayal after trust comes to my mind. It also could put a person back at the beginning when he started to find out “who am I”, probably surfacing his failed purposes on this.
    “I know who I am not” is a negative, and it doesn’t sound like a great “EP”, which would be expected at the highest level available on “The Road Total Freedom”, it sounds wrong. Also when it handles whole-track amnesia, at that point, one should know “who I am”.
    I was looking for some material on the dichotomy of “I am – I am not” and found the following from Advanced Porcedures and Axioms: “On the tone scale, we have at the optimum level, I am, at the lowest level I am not. The lower one goes, the more I am not there is and the less I am.” Interesting! It seems that with the “EP”: “I know who I am not”, regarding to the above, the purpose would be to drive the person down the tone scale.
    So the summery would be: a loss instead of a win, a crash down the tone scale, a feeling of betrayal after trust and with it the loss of major stable datum, a “not being” as a negative and failed purpose. And with all that a ”cannot communicate about it” but have to pretend all is just groovy, and if I do not toe the line I get disconnection and declared. The “EP” could feel more like a huge loss instead of a huge win (an ability gained), a failed purpose and a huge threat… unless the person got enough confidence and strength on the way up to have certainty about his beingness. At this point I would say goodbye; but then I would have to disconnect with all its consequences. And with all this descending upon somebody, it is no wonder that some persons crash.
    (I read somewhere the assertion that the OT 8 level got split and that what is currently delivered is only half of it. Considering all this it would even make sense; even though at that level I would expect quiet another EP regarding to “Operating Thetan”.)

    PS: next time I write shorter. You are all very good at concise expression – my admiration!

      1. Thank you, deElizabethan! – I am glad that it is understood.
        (I was wondering if my train of thought was more confusing than explaining). – Karola

  20. I’m in contact with Don, an Class XII auditor and C/S of the “Indies”, Israel, Tel Aviv, Advanced Organization, and he proposed me to handle my main issues in life BEFORE to go on the Bridge to then stabilize my wins. I mean looks to me right at the opposite Isene described about Church’s behaviour.

  21. PPS: the “I am” and “I am not” in Advanced Procedures and Axioms should be in italic.

  22. The road to OT is a “Half Done”. It either was never fully developed or
    not released. And I tell you: Every unhandled “Half done” in (your) life will develop to a big pile of shit an finally explode. So do not wonder when you are in deep shit.

  23. Wow. I see that you have added my comment about the enemy condition to your OP Geir!

    I find it fascinating that your next step, upon completing OT8 in the Church was to do the doubt formula, the next formula up from enemy.

    I just revisted your original resignation after OT8, noting your response to: “Do everything possible to improve the actions and statistics of the person, group, project or organization one has remained in or joined.”

    You wrote:
    Project Freedom is born.
    I am adamant on forwarding peoples freedom.
    I will help people attain and exercise their free will

    Then you did a liability formula.

    Could it be that the very next thing was a long non-e formula, for Project Freedom?

    You noted that your entire world fell to pieces, and out of that came the spectacular and wonderful changes in your life. Was this a danger formula rolling out? Perhaps this revelation you have just made is the one thing you had withheld?

    I hope you wont think that I am evaluating or saying this is so, its just that this suddenly occurred to me and I would like to know what your thoughts on the possibility that such a progression has taken place might be.

    1. Wow. That is an incredible astute observation. It seems you have nailed something here. I will ponder this some more.

      1. The viewpoint is a spiritual viewpoint, it is in the spiritual universe. We are here to be 100% human first that is experience it in its totality. It will stop our interest and/or aversion to being human. That is having to come here and not existing at a different level. The I am me is a great point. Few have it only. This is when things start to speed up….my reality. What’s your’s Geir?

      2. Do that! Maria is right in my reality. Speak out and write down what you have in the meantime. Very few do that and not as precisely as you do. Will help a lot of “others”.

      3. Yes, I have that sense of nailing something too — looking forward to what your examinations lead to!

  24. Geir,
    I asked you a question in OT8 which you didn’t give an answer to. The question was:
    What is the nature of I AM ME? Will you describe how you mean it, what the
    sense of it is, what its abilities are?

    1. It is the nativest state of a being (before going back to pure potential, or whatever you’d like to call it. It is from where as-isness occurs.

  25. Geir, the conditions formulas are applied as they relate to specific CONDITIONS. Here is the condition for which the Enemy formula is to be applied:

    “When a person is an avowed and knowing enemy of an individual, a group, project or organization, a Condition of Enemy exists.”

    Do you feel that condition is what is being referred to in the EP of OT 8?

    1. Well, the formula is what it is and the EP of OT 8 is what it is. Draw your own conclusion. My point is really that it seems a lousy EP after dozens of years and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent to do the first Real OT Level. And to leave the OTs hanging with an interest in finally getting to know who they are? That’s just plain cruel. And easily exploitable as we can see in practice within the CoS.

      1. I totally get you Geir! But can you see just one positive side of it? YOU can create as much fresh energy as you want, as much space as you want and as many experiences as YOU want now. You can create energy called money and you can also create time if you want to.
        YOU are CAUSE over LIFE as YOU ! and also MEST. If you decide that.
        Is it true? How many people can say that? And in the meantime you had lots of experiences others did not have. In auditing and in life. If you look back, was it worth it, the major part of it? Please answer to it.

      2. Yes, the formula is what it is and the EP of OT 8 is what it is. I don’t see how that EP, which happens to use similar wording, infers that the person is in a condition of Enemy. The wording “who you REALLY are” is in the Enemy formula and the word “really” is not in the OT 8 EP. That is one that that implies a significantly different meaning altogether.

        It makes much more sense to me to see the EP as alluding to the greater knowingness that exists beyond OT 8. I get that an OT 8 completion has no more barriers that would prevent him from moving forward ON HIS OWN to attain the knowingness of who he is, (This is assuming the CoS itself isn’t insidiously inserting barriers, which it unfortunately is in many cases.) And finding out who you are would obviously not be in the context of being an enemy to some individual or group, a much lower level of knowingness.

        The quest you yourself have been on, if I have understood you, is to find out who you are in terms of your relationship to the universe and to other beings. And since it seems that the CoS didn’t somehow manage to place a barrier to that in you, I am sure you will arrive. If you haven’;t done so already. 🙂

        1. Are you implying that at the end of OT 8 one would not be interested in finding out who one REALLY is (as opposed to just finding out who one is)?

          And I can assure you that one would not have the wherewithal to continue one one’s own with only the tools provided on the way as one finishes OT 8. I am not certain I would overcome the next death/birth in “one piece” to give you one example.

          1. What I had in mind was that the wording in the Enemy formula of “who you REALLY are” implies that while the person may belong to a particular group he is in fact acting as the enemy of that group and needs to first decide who he really is – in relation to the group – and based on that determination he will be able to go to the next condition of Doubt and validly do that formula and be able to decide which group he should join or remain in. As for the OT 8 EP the word “really” isn’t there and thus I see no such implication of enemy.

            The wherewithal I had in mind for any OT 8 to be able to continue on his own towards greater and greater knowingness of himself is based on the fact that the barriers that prevent his moving forward in that direction have been removed as he is no longer blinded by who he isn’t.

            1. M…”The wherewithal I had in mind for any OT 8 to be able to continue on his own towards greater and greater knowingness of himself is based on the fact that the barriers that prevent his moving forward in that direction have been removed as he is no longer blinded by who he isnt.”

              That is the way it should be, but the OT’s have not taken responsibility for their own cases… and because of that they have not regained their power therefore cant move on, still waiting to be told what to do and are lost without direction and with that they become a victim.. Without responsibility for self for what ever happens to one is caused by self and no other, if one do not realizes that than one automatically a victim, blaming others for the condition is in..

            2. I hear you, Elizabeth, and I am sure there is great truth to what you are saying, since most of us believe that each person is ultimately responsible for his condition. However, Geir’s point is that there are OT 8’s who have trusted in the Church and the (so-called) tech that it provides. and the Church has led them into disaster in many cases. There’s truth to that too. My idea is that some of those OT 8’s have been “crippled” to an extent that it isn’t possible for them to just get up and start walking again any time soon.

            3. “He may be blinded by much more than not knowing who he has not been.”

              I’m sure you’re right. The only hope I would have is that he is now CAPABLE of finding those blind spots or areas of “ignorance”, where he once didn’t have a chance. At least that seems to have been the EP that LRH intended.

            4. M…. the EP is there. but one have to work for to discover for self what is that and no one can tell that to any one. All OT’s know how to solo audit and with solo auditing one takes responsibility for ones case, ones universe.. and that need a realization that they were the creators no matter what they feel, have and experience.

            5. I don’t see that LRH intended that. Why do you think so? Is there any reference that you can point me to?

            6. Here’s a reference, Geir:

              “You’re only trying to free him up to a point where he can recognize that he can have freedom. And after that, all the freedom he gets will be given to him by himself. But you get him up to a security where he knows he can have freedom, and he’s on his own. I mean, you can’t go any further with a thetan.” (9 Dec 53, Examples of SOP-8C Patter, Standard Op Procedure 8 Clinical)

            7. That quote has no bearing or relevance in regards to OT 8 specifically.

              Do you think LRH intended the first real OT level to be the last? And that his Brifge to OT 15 was bogus/for show/irrelevant/just to creaye a graphical symmetry? And his talks about levels above 8 was just hot air?

            8. There doesn’t seem to be any incontrovertible proof in the matter, but LRH was continuously researching and coming to higher refinements of the tech. The viewpoint below about OT 8 is the one that I think makes the most sense, especially when considering references such as the one I quoted above:

              “…at OT 8 Hubbard seeks to guide an individual toward a state or condition of no longer having the slightest attention devoted to past identities, any aspect of the past, introversion or regression. At that level, there wouldn’t be even a remote desire for or inclination toward introspective processes or practices of any kind…

              “…Do you think he was cruel enough to build the Bridge to a place where, when you’ve reached the apex, you are so ill-equipped to move on that you must cling to the guard rail, waiting for some priest to prescribe your every step? Do you feel so vulnerable and weak that you cannot step out on your own and begin to walk your own walk toward higher plateaus? […]

              “Some express disbelief that Hubbard would not have published something that explicitly let the world know that OT 8 was the end. First, this is not surprising to me. Hubbard was perpetually exploring and prolifically publishing the results of his findings, throughout his life. I would have expected him to be exploring to the end, and if he died before he found anything worthy of publication during his elderly ventures, then the last thing he published would be the last thing he found worthy of publication. Second, if one thinks that OT 8 is the end simply because it is the ultimate attainment on the Scientology Bridge, then from the very beginning one wasn’t pursuing the same ends Hubbard was.

              (from the book What Is Wrong With Scientology?)

            9. If you’d done OT 8 it is more than obvious that LRH intended there to be more levels. It is indeed conclusive. I believe any arguments to the contrary to be defensive justifications that I have come to expect of a true Scientology believer.

            10. Do you consider Marty Rathbun to be a “true Scientology believer”? If so, you haven’t been paying much attention to him for quite a while. Also, my understanding of many of his blog posts and comments is that his conclusions about OT 8 were based in part on the dealings he’s had with OT 8’s who don’t all share your viewpoint.

              Or was the “true Scientology believer” remark intended as an Ad Hom towards me only?

            11. Marty is evolving, and fast. I believe he was a True Believer. Most such tend to defend regardless IMO.

            12. “Marty is evolving, and fast. I believe he was a True Believer. Most such tend to defend regardless IMO.”

              By “Most SUCH…” it seems that you mean to say that anyone who “was” a True Believer although no longer is will still “tend to defend REGARDLESS”. If so, it comes across as a ready-made explanation to brush off the fact that Marty (and others like him) continues to highly praise the awesome results Scientology tech produces, while at the same time is quite capable of seeing “What is Wrong with Scientology” (which he wrote a whole book about).

              Another thing, Geir: You do realize that “True Believer” is a label, don’t you? A derogatory one, at that. And I would also like to point out that calling me “pigheaded” as you did in an earlier comment is not only using a derogatory label but such name-calling is a logical fallacy as well.

              “Ad Hominem: An attack, or an insult, on the person, rather than directly addressing the person’s reasons. NAME CALLING is a form of this fallacy.” http://my.ilstu.edu/~jecox/FOI%20Materials/Logical%20Fallacies%20Definitions%20and%20Examples.htm

            13. Geir wasn’t referring to what I had just said or my current argument but rather to something that occurred way back. In other words, it wasn’t a comment that my last reply to him was committing the fallacy of pigheadedness; rather, it was an attempt to discredit me personally by (supposedly) pointing out that I had been pigheaded in an exchange of months (maybe years) ago. That’s Ad Hom.

              And btw, when I disagreed and said why even that past argument was not just a matter of being pigheaded he had nothing to say in return.

            14. Sorry, I don’t follow you here. I lost the question, the argument, the string. And with little interest to track it back, I will simply leave it.

            15. I made this comment to Dee: “…But one thing I’ve observed on this blog is that those who are generally critical have not trained in it and applied it enough to get a conceptual understanding of what it is. And the posters who have some training and experience with the tech are generally highly favorable. I think this is a telling observation.”

              A few posts down you replied to it: https://isene.me/2013/01/26/ot-8-follow-up/#comment-28113

              I then posted my response, which you never replied to. But it’s fine if you’d rather just leave it.

            16. Marty has changed. One day I might even feel like shaking his corrupt hand rather than inviting him into the octagon for cage fighting. Time will tell. He was thoroughly trashed for his recent “liberal” comments after Tom Martiniano’s letter by the truly true-believers. He’s had to back peddle but time will tell what his agenda is or evolves into. (These comments are my own opinions and not connected to the isene.me blog.)

            17. As TC and the church says, you’re either in or you’re out, with us or against us.
              They don’t grant us who are of mixed breed to be anywhere. Just 2 cents 🙂

            18. Thanks deE. I’ve since had a glass of wine and a Sunday afternoon nap and relieved to realize that Scientology was 20 years in my rear view mirror. My time travel back into the muck of that mistake was long ago and far away. Good to float back to the surface as I had run out of breath.

            19. Who knows for sure where he went and if he will ever come back here.

            20. I tend to agree with Marildi re the difference between the OT 8 EP and the enemy formula.

              Sent from my iPhone

          2. Geir,
            If it helps, I don’t know. With the I am me the intention of survival is totally gone. In humans it is still there. Under the point 3. of the doubt
            formula it says…..or help.That is it maybe the first real help point to
            help humanity in its survival and waking up to truth instead of destroying it by “taking/demanding” etc. out of fear of non-survival. The enemy formula can be seen from “spiritual” sense and all way up the others.Can it be the case?

          3. Geir,
            “I’m not certain I would overcome….” Right. In my life the biggest breakthroughs happened in the midst of the biggest miseries. The Stop-no control-no resist formula. Many got enlightened in this way. So yes, no ! tools. No data, no method etc. Me, the real Me starts from mest 0 and can build up mest 8 or spiritual 8 or their combination
            by following the Flow. Also, the here and now. Can function quite practically. I am not looking as far as the next death/birth. It will handle itself if I follow what I have witten above. My reality. Does it make sense
            to you or your reality is different. If so, in what?

            1. Geir,
              Blinded…yes…also your answer to my question to what’s the nature of
              the Me. In my present reality there is no answer “in the mind” to the
              question “who am I “. The mind is the product, construct of LIfe-Flow.
              In the absence of the mind, the answer is the Flow. And it’s “blind” in a sense as it is a not-knowing but ! doing-living kind of existence. That’s my reality now. Alive and fresh.

    2. I do not have the reference to hand, but under applying conditions correctly, if a senior bypasses a junior and the junior does not actively handle that, he automatically starts the danger condition.

      Also, if you apply the wrong condition, you get the next lower condition in the sequence of conditions.

      If you apply the first step of the emergency formula and you are actually in affluence, then you start up the emergency formula (regardless of existing conditions) and since you do not then complete the emergency formula, you end up in danger.

      At least thats what I recall.

      This is likely why wrong conditions assignments (implied by starting the formula or by direct assignment) are a source of trouble and misery.

      1. Maria, my point was that I do not see the EP of OT 8 as an assignment of a condition of Enemy. Nor do I even see it as an implication that the Enemy formula needs to be applied, assigned or not. What I do see is what I wrote in my replies to Geir.

        1. Actually it makes a lot of sense to apply the conditions to that level and that realization. If I were doing it I would expect to be doing the conditions in relation to self, not a 3rd or other dynamic.

          As such, one would work up and at Danger figure out the policies one would have to have in place to avoid a downward spiral (like “stay away from the red switch” 🙂 ). Working out those things can greatly assist in working back to a Normal condition as OT, not to mention Affluences and beyond.

          1. Absolutely right. Conditions may well be the exact piece of Scn tech needed. My objection was only to the idea that the Enemy formula was essentially being assigned or that it was necessarily the correct condition.

        2. Well, I am extremely interested in learning what Geir has to say about all this, for I have only read that EP without doing any of the processes from OT5 on up that result in full experience of that EP.

          I do know for sure that you can start up a condition without making a specific assignment, and without even recognizing what the current condition actually is.

          From the book Intro to Scn Ethics 1967 edition:
          **********************************************************
          The declaration of a condition is something new in the universe. The conditions are not. These conditions are operating states and oddly enough in the physical universe there is a formula connected with every one of these operating states.

          If a government knew these it would never get into a great deal of trouble, and as governments don’t know them they get into a great deal of trouble. These formulas apparently have to be followed in this universe or you simply go “appetite-over-tin-cup”.
          *********************************************************

          I note that Geir has found it to be an astute observation, and he DOES have that EP. That is why I posed it as a question.

          You cannot answer the question on his behalf. No one can do that except Geir himself.

          So please, do not attempt to word clear him on a blog! I am quite sure he knows the meaning of the words and he surely has done all the auditing required to attain that particular EP. You and I have not.

          1. Fortunately, and to his great credit, Geir has no problem with anybody disagreeing with him and stating their understanding and giving their conclusions and viewpoints – no matter what they have or haven’t formally done,

            1. Unlike you, I may add 😉

              (as you have been the most insisting on formal credentials, experiences etc. in order for the person to be up to snuff)

            2. “(as you have been the most insisting on formal credentials, experiences etc. in order for the person to be up to snuff)”

              Not so. I have only been pointing out the correlation of people who were critical and the fact that they have little to no experience. And that, along with the fact that those who generally aren’t critical do have training and experience, seems to be an indicator.

              I’ve also taken up many of the points critics claim are in Scientology when the materials as I understand them show those statements do not apply to Scientology at all. In other words, I actually have willing to discuss these things with whomever, credentials and experience or not.

            3. I have eventually brushed off some people but it wasn’t for the reason of lack of credentials. It was because of losing confidence that a sincere and rational conversation could be had with them. I disagree with you quite a bit, for example, but so far I am still interested in exchanges with you because I can usually count on you to carry out a productive one.

            4. The sum of your pro-Scientology arguments revolve around a claim that people who understand Scientology are for it while people who are against it do not understand it. All the while, you are no true-practitioner of Scientology by committing fully 1/2 the Bridge to Total Freedom — auditing — to irrelevance, and the other half, well, you are not pursuing it.

              The solution to your complaint that you cannot have a sincere rational discussion of Scientology begins with your letting go of the major premise that “Scientology is True.”

            5. Marildi, “Not so. I have only been pointing out………………………”
              Thanks for pointing that out. LoLove

            6. 2ndxmr:

              I am replying to your comments on speed of execution of the conditions. Yes, I have realized that those conditions can be completed faster than one can write them down in full.

              The opposite side of that coin would be that the adoption or execution of a condition that drops one down the conditions could be just that fast too.

              What I was looking at was that a condition does not have to be specifically assigned to be triggered. i.e. Senior comes along and issues orders in ones area. There is no assignment made by the senior, there is only an action taken by the senior. The act of bypass starts that condition. That is the premise of Danger Condition: Why Orgs Stay Small.

              When I saw the EP of OT8 on Geirs post, the first thing I thought of was the enemy formula and what would happen to someone completing OT 8 who inadvertantly triggered the enemy condition along with the completion of the level. I say this because I know several OT8s who are bloody mess personally and financially. And I do mean a MESS! I also know of many who have walked away from Scientology after this level, certainly no longer friends and possibly even enemies. This was always baffling to me. I would anticipate a great love of the organization and Scientology and dedication to forwarding its purposes upon attainment of the highest level of auditing available in Scientology.

              I do not really have any conclusions on this. I simply do not have enough data on this other than to say there is a string here. I like pulling on strings.

            7. Got it. So an outcome of level is a person triggered into Enemy. And that could be on any dynamic.

              Yet another case where insufficient hatting of the pre-OT causes a problem. It would seem like it would take only a few preparatory pages along the way to hat an individual to spot conditions assignments, whether self-generated or externally generated.

            8. It is OK to walk away from Scientology after completing OT 8. It is called graduation. One is done with it. Now one may enter the real world to tackle the problems there.

              Talking about loyalty to Scientology is like having loyalty towards one’s Kindergarten school. One has fond memories, that’s all. It should not make one an enemy of one’s kindergarten or Scientology.

              .

          2. Note to Geir: While I am very, very interested in what you make of this question I posed, I respect that you may not choose to answer or that you may not have any particular answer on an immediate basis or that you may have an immediate response followed by a differing response over time and as you perhaps continue to inspect the area. As you know, I am just a very curious explorer and I love to tug on little strings that hang off pieces of cloth!

            1. You finished OT8 — and the EP is the gist of the Enemy formula. Than I observed that you did a doubt formula. Then you did a liability formula.

              Could it be that the very next thing was a long non-e formula, for Project Freedom?

              You noted that your entire world fell to pieces, and out of that came the spectacular and wonderful changes in your life. Was this a danger formula rolling out? Perhaps this revelation you have just made is the one thing you had withheld?

              I hope you wont think that I am evaluating or saying this is so, its just that this suddenly occurred to me and I would like to know what your thoughts on the possibility that such a progression has taken place might be.

              I guess I am wondering about any ramifications or consequences from the EP of OT8 apparently being the formula for the condition of enemy.

            2. Geir: Do you think it is possible that as a result of learning these conditions, and accepting them as true, then they play out as stated simply because one now accepts them as true, thus forming a repeating pattern, including now having to apply them in the stated order or appetite over tin cup? And might this be especially true for an individual who has ramped up intention?

            3. Yes. I believe this is true. I thusly also believe one can quite successfully violate the conditions and bring about new positive endeavours.

            4. Isene – Like! “successfully violate the conditions and bring about new positive endeavours.”

            5. Maria, another thing that can happen is that a being can move through the conditions more rapidly than you might expect. The real key is to be able to determine the condition you are in at the moment. If one had a cog at Enemy and quickly had cogs that brought him up to Danger, the correct hing to realize is that the current condition is Danger. It might well be wise to look at what happened at Enemy and the intervening conditions to ensure they were complete and understood but that doesn’t mean dropping the current condition (as in denying the correct condition) and assigning self the lower condition and working forward from the lower condition.

              Make sense?

            6. Hi Maria, you didn’t ask me but I wanted to answer. Yes, they are true within the framework of Scientology. Leaving this framework? Then bets are off.

            7. The conditions are based on Life’s abilities. After clearing, only Life remains as being in its natural condition. So it’s fast. I find what Geir says also true, that is “bringing out new, positive”.

            8. This reply is for 2ndxmr:

              See my comment above at 2013-01-28 at 03:13
              My reply ended up in the wrong place!
              I hope this one ends up in the right place.

    1. This EP is just the general technicalwording of Scientology which has nothing to do with life or spiritual things at all. I think LRH did not know in the first place who was himself. Scientology was his Game and nothing else.
      He wrote many nonsense and this point on the Bridge seems to be nonsense as well. LRH was playing games with Scientologists.
      The Church is a worthy successor of him.
      The sadness of this story is that in the hand of people with goodwill things could be sorted out and could be used beneficially for all.

  26. A couple of viewpoints on OT 8:

    What I got from the level was: Freedom from past.

    I think that would have been a better stated EP of the level.

    I needed that EP. It calmed me tremendously. It put me into the Here & Now. Excellent stuff.

    1. If it helps: the here and now for me is in one sense the definition of ability. That is: observe, decide and act. Can happen in an instant with no-mind. Being “new” in this “state” is not obvious for others as they still see my body, past actions etc. So there is a “transition period” both for me and others. It’s a kind of continuous Pesence. Perceptions range from physical, the purest theta (seeing theta com.lines
      between people) to no-thing perception. Knowingness. So “old” ways are gradually gone – for me it’s obvious, simple, natural but in the family or other groups some reactions can be expected – which can be
      handled by Presence. So the individuals and the “groups” undergo
      a certain Change too. It settles down.
      Your Freedom project would interest me too. Geir, you are doing great by communicating! Universal solvent, is that the word for it?

    2. I do not have the benefit of having done the OT levels, but freedom from past could be the exit point from all mind traps.
      And the answer to who I Am maybe should best be left open, as it could then be created newly at each new moment in time, free from past and future.
      It aligns wth my best possible (theoretical) definition of OT:
      Pure creativity.

          1. Dee
            Thank you! I look a little differently now due to what Ron would say that is theta, or more theta can change even the body, automatically.
            Readjusts itself to a more natural form. So I am now slim, 58 kilos, face more natural too. It’s also true that with attention and postulate one can change looks. I am writing about it not because I want to speak about “myself”. Just as an example for a piece of truth.
            I put the picture there as part of a game with Slack. He didn’t get the message – that is theta through the wavelength of “aesthetics/art” changes form. It all happened to me spontaneuously after “awakening”. It was interesting to experience it happening to me.

      1. Hi Rafael! Always great to see the little mouse again! 🙂

        You definition of OT seems to me to be succinctly perfect.

        What is you current (theoretical) conception of how the universe began? I ask because this subject has been brought up on recent threads and it got me wondering about it again. You probably remember us all discussing it here in the past. I forget your views on the matter. But anyway, that was then and this is now. Does it still interest you?

  27. I’m going to place my opinion here about what LRH was thinking with the EP of OT 8. When LRH was alive in the 70’s, before he started the “monthly rising prices” scheme to get as much money as he could to go on the run after the FBI raids, the Bridge was much faster and less expensive to travel. It was not to be your whole life’s work to get through OT 8.

    The EP of OT 8 sets a person up to be TOLD what he really is. And it is this state which is necessary for classical brainwashing techniques to produce a strong personality shift. To have spent so much time nulling your thoughts and sensations and emotions, and getting them to “blow”, and then to have sifted away all your past life incidents and assigned them to someone or something else, and then to be told THIS EP – is nothing but classical brainwashing.

    In fact, throughout Scientology there are classical brainwashing techniques applied to people to produce personality shifts.

    I apologize for being so…Alanzo. But when you have studied classical brainwashing and other socially coercive techniques, and you look at Scientology, it is really hard to come to any other conclusion.

    What a person puts there, and what they think they are doing in Scientology, is often very different than what Scientology is actually doing. And LRH’s explanations for the causes of what happens in Scientology are often very wrong, and are also often blatant misdirections.

    I just had to put it there, one more time, because I can’t see anyone else making this point. And I believe that it is an important point to consider.

    Alanzo

    1. I have been considering this issue of brainwashing. The idea being that one strips down to a completely blank personality with no memory at all and then implants a new personality constructed by the operator. The justification for the drugs and surgeries employed is that the memories are the source of the personality, and responsible for the behaviors that are diagnosed as pathological.

      The trouble I have with this is that I know many OT7s and OT8s and believe me, they are not short on personality and they certainly have memory. I have known some of these people for decades and I really cannot say that their personalities have been blanked out, and they surely do have memories of past events. Their memories really are not implanted memories unless my memories were also implanted when I was not aware of it!

      So my conclusion is that if it is brainwashing, it is not particularly effective. Also, there are quite a few ex OT8s — I cannot imagine how they could have left if they were thoroughly and effectively brainwashed. But I do think that harassing people with endless crazy sec checks and RPF conditions is a form of brainwashing, again, not very effective on most people. I think that the fear of disconnection is a much more powerful and effective control mechanism myself, especially when coupled with silencing the dissenting voice.

      However, I have discovered that my world and viewpoint can shift radically and rapidly depending on what I am currently involved in. Chris touched on this at one point, he said he thought he was very wishy-washy. I know exactly what he is talking about. More and more I can pick up a set of considerations and run with them in a very holistic sort of way. Makes for a bizarre kind of existence really. I wonder how many people experience this also.

      1. Maria: Chris touched on this at one point, he said he thought he was very wishy-washy.

        Chris: Maria, I’ve thought about those conversations from time to time and have come to think of the wishy-washy as a flexibility. I find it easier than ever to complete a task but at the same time am not compelled to do so; unless I have committed to do so, in which case, I am compelled to do so. Maybe commitment is the operative word. Maybe back then I felt I should “pick one” and go with it. Now I feel more comfortable with the flexibility.

        In my reality, corporeal Life for me consists of being one cell on the skin of consciousness and I see you as my comrade cell in this way as well both of us part of a greater consciousness. In my present incarnation, I have a consciousness of sorts, like one of the 2-dimensional people in Carl Sagan’s “Flatland.” Yet I instinctively know and adhere to the idea that we are joined “at the hip” by a “commonality of consciousness.” I don’t particularly care whether we name this “oneness” or “unity” or what. It is just a sense that I do have communion with others. I see the structures; the constructs that I create as illusion for which I am responsible. I see other structures around me as illusion for which I am not personally responsible. I see myself always as personally responsible for how I perceive these illusions.

        That “greater consciousness?” The “tesseract of consciousness?” Well, I imagine that to be the Source of this commonality; this communion which I imagine that I have with you. It is quite fractal by moment by moment; discrete; quite relative; quite conditioned; and quite impermanent.

        Regarding, “who I am,” I have settled on very loose definitions of myself which I can and do “morph” as I wish with the caveat that when I commit my beingness to a certain beingness toward or for another person, then I do not morph for the duration of that commitment. It’s like a ray-gun that I turn on myself to “freeze” a valence for a duration. Then when that valence is no longer required or appropriate — “unfreeze.”What I am is a dis-solvable entity which began, has duration, and also an ending. I might be wrong. There’s no way for me sitting here typing to know for sure, but the illusion is quite real and vivid. And really, isn’t that all we ask of this life? For it to be real; vivid; lush; and exciting? When I am tempted to take myself too seriously, I think of these things, have an uproarious and hearty laugh; shake my head, then just get over it and get on with it.

        Reading over this, I have no confidence that it will communicate, but I still hope it will, at least a bit.

        1. Oh it definitely communicates — especially the freeze frame concept, committed to a particular presentation! I try to be reasonably consistent around friends and family!

          And you ask: And really, isn’t that all we ask of this life? For it to be real; vivid; lush; and exciting? YES!!

        2. P.S. I used the wishy-washy word because I knew that you would instantly know what discussion I was referring to, not because I think you are wishy-washy. I like your new word better anyway. Flexible. I am in a state of flex! Flex that interverse!

        3. It communicates perfectly to me, Chris. Same ideas and use of valences / beingnesses dependent on situation.

      2. Brainwashing occurs on a gradient. It is based on step by step agreement in infinitesimally small steps.

        Attachment to one’s previous considerations is reduced while attachment to new considerations is increased. These new attachments are designed to create loyalty to Scientology .

        The interesting point is that brainwashing is proportional to attachment to considerations. No brainwashing would be no attachment.

        But a person who comes into Scientology is already in a brainwashed condition. He has been brainwashed by his parents and by the society. Scientology is simply shifting that brainwashing to its own brand that ensures loyalty to Scientology.

        .

        1. Vin: “But a person who comes into Scientology is already in a brainwashed condition. He has been brainwashed by his parents and by the society.”

          Your statements here equate the condition normally referred to as “normal” with “brainwashed”. That’s a balloon that won’t hold much air.

            1. I understand what you’re saying but you are left with no reference as to “normal”. How do you discriminate between a “normal brainwashed condition” and a “cult brainwashed condition”? You need a different nomenclature.

            2. As I said in another post recently, there is a gradient of brainwashing, and the essential characteristic of that gradient is “attachment to considerations.” The reference is eastern psychology that you can find in Hinduism.

              Western view of brainwashing is limited to a “rearrangement of the attachment to considerations.”

              The original aim of auditing was to eliminate such attachment, or stuckness to considerations.

              .

    2. I am making the same point but differently.

      Hubbard replaced Buddha;s mindfulness by e-meter. Whereas, mindfulness creates independence, e-meter creates dependence.

      One can easily see the insanity resulting from such dependence,

      .

      1. I think Hubbard ADDED the e-meter to mindfullness. It was never intended to substitute for mindfullness, which was intended to be developed by doing TRs. The e-meter’s role was to provided information about what and where to focus the mindfullness(attention).

    3. Alonzo,
      “The EP of OT8 sets a person up to be TOLD what he really is”.
      I find it to be the exact opposite of what you are saying. First, how
      Geir describes the “state” he is in, being in present time, no attachment! (it simply means getting off it, no more energy put into it, not
      operating from there but can have access to memories) and also native state (read his comment), also what and how he is writing about,
      what is “coming through” IS the power of a free being. (sorry Geir, I don’t mean to evaluate). Having done both dianetics and scio auditing I found them a way to be more and more aware of how THETA Life is…it’s also true for my studies….never-ever experienced “brainwashing”.. Also what you are writing about assigning past incidents to someone else….please read again what Geir says in OT8. I am in a very good position of having a clear experience of
      auditing and what it can do (up to a level), also true! non-method meditation. also linguistics (cognitive semantics), also what it means
      to “wake up” (per E. Tolle, if you like). I am mentioning it not because
      I want to speak about myself. I am writing about it because “value,
      truth” whatever we name it for me is “sacred”, It can be “found”. It is
      “there in plain view” (Geir).

      1. Yes, Marianne. I understand that people get wins from their Scientology auditing. I did too.

        But when you read the basic books, and then you look at something like the Sea Org, or the absolute totalitarian goals (when absolutes are unobtainable), or the RPF, or sec checking, they just don’t make any sense. They do not fit.

        Why?

        Alanzo

    4. Al, please let me agree and disagree with you at the same time.

      1. Possibly Agree – “The EP of OT 8 sets a person up to be TOLD what he really is.”

      This is based on my reading of Marty’s post and ALL the comments here: http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/truth-revealed-about-ot-viii/

      His post is based on rehabbing a number of people who did “OT VIII” at the CoS. The comments speak for themselves.

      2. Disagree – “what LRH was thinking with the EP of OT 8.”

      I disagree with the idea that LRH had much at all to do with the EP of OTVIII as it is given by the CoS, because:

      a) LRH’s OTVIII has never been delivered by the CoS. What has been delivered is “New” OT VIII which is different and is the concoction and brainchild of Miscavige, was never piloted, was released only after LRH died, and of which there are about 4 or more different versions. Karen #1 has further information and provides an email addy for accessing it.

      b) The purpose of “New” OTVIII is to deliver a specific “implant” into the prior confusion (intentionally) created during NOTs. The nature of this “implant” is to make the person feel he needs to start all over again at the bottom.

      Additionally, “New” OT VIII as delivered is reportedly only 1/2 the actual existing level. Perhaps that has some relevance to the perception that the EP simply dumps one down in the lower Conditions?

      There is more, but here’s the link again. It’s worth wading through the comments for the information available in that thread.:

      http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/truth-revealed-about-ot-viii/

  28. Maria wrote:

    The idea being that one strips down to a completely blank personality with no memory at all and then implants a new personality constructed by the operator. The justification for the drugs and surgeries employed is that the memories are the source of the personality, and responsible for the behaviors that are diagnosed as pathological.

    These are Hubbard’s misdirections. This is not how classical brainwashing works.

    Brainwashing gives you a new self-identity. A self-identity is who you tell yourself you are. Nobody erases anything. However, new memories are uncovered in auditing to get you to change your own self-identity by “uncovering” new areas of “track”.

    I was born in Macon Georgia in 1954 changes to “I used to be a Loyal Officer on a star ship.” Or, “I am a past life Clear” or “I have recently arrived on this planet, looking for Scientology” Or, “that sick feeling I always got whenever I remembered my mother was a body thetan which I “blew” on the route to total spiritual freedom.” These all change who you tell yourself you are.

    And yes, we are always changing our own self-identities. Hubbard just inserted himself in the process, and he inserted parts, such as goals he could control, and attitudes he could control, and an ideology that he could control.

    Remember, all auditing addresses valences.

    He developed the PTS/SP/Ethics tech for those who became unstable, and to get them back in valence as a Scientologist. (Think enemy formula, doubt formula, liability formula) And he developed Justice & Fairgame tech for those who woke up and cracked out of it and became a problem.

    He knew exactly what he was doing. He did it very intentionally.

    That’s what I see when I look at Scientology.

    It is worth it to look at Scientology from this viewpoint. You learn a lot from it. And you learn a lot about what Hubbard was doing. Lots of stuff starts to make sense that never made sense before.

    It’s not for everyone, though. For some people, it’s their religion and they get a lot of wins out of it.

    Alanzo

      1. This is a meaningless statement Vinaire.

        You seek wins with KHTK, wins in terms of identifying inconsistencies. Restated, for you to be free from your own addiction to your wins, you will need to adopt a point of view that any consideration is a win, (whether consistent or inconsistent) and that there is absolutely no need for any kind of progress towards anything or nothing and no need to identify and or evaluate a consideration at all. AT ALL.

        Under the terms of your own blanket statement, I observe that you are wholly addicted to wins and to the process you are employing. Can you stop yourself from observing and examining considerations and inconsistencies? Even if you wanted to? I doubt it.

        To my way of thinking, only death and total dissolution will relieve this addiction, and then and only then if there is such a state of total dissolution. And if there is, then you would no longer exist to evaluate it.

    1. Alanzo – I wrote you a really good response, but it is now in the moderation queue because I put links in it and forgot to disable them. Hopefully Geir will happen by and moderate my post!

    2. Alanzo, I really felt it wasn’t good enough just to identify elements of brainwashing, because elements of brainwashing can be found in almost every human endeavor intended to influence the minds and hearts of people, just as Vinay has pointed out.

      I wanted to find out what elements or characteristics proofed an individual against forms of brainwashing do not employ physical shock, pain, drugs and surgery. My research led me to a book written in 1956 by Edward Hunter entitled “Brainwashing – The Story of Men Who Defied It.” Hunter interviewed many individuals who had undergone brainwashing techniques commonly used in POW camps. He thorougly describes the methods and then interviews many individuals who did not ever succumb, identifying the common elements that proofed them up against the mental onslaught they experienced.

      Please note that it is a treatise on the psychopolitics of communism as well, and he explores what that means in terms of individual rights and liberties. Also note that these excerpts touch on his subject matter, he fully explains what he means for each term used in the book.

      The book is online at: [http://archive.org/details/brainwashingstor00huntrich]

      The following is extracted from his chapter entitled “HOW IT CAN BE BEAT:”

      ********************
      The elements that gave a man moral strength were just as definable as those which gave him physical strength. Out of the experience of all these brainwashed persons came a practical and a satisfying pattern for survival against mental pressures. Such survival knowledge can ultimately destroy communism, internally and externally.

      These elements can be named and listed. They are:
      Faith, convictions, clarity of mind, a closed mind, purpose, keeping one’s mind busy, confidence, deceit, high jinks,adaptability, crusading spirit, group feelings, being yourself.

      Certain of these labels, standing by themselves, would give too broad or misleading an impression, such as a closed mind and deceit. Within the framework of maturity and dissemblance these two are trimmed to fit within our democratic way of life and still remain practical. They are all bound up in integrity which gives them their direction and potency.

      […]

      A closed mind, of course, is a radical preventative. Fanaticism can easily be confused with it, and this is not what it means. A fanatic not only closes a door in his mind, he cements it shut so it can never be opened again, and shuts every other nearby door the same way, irrespective of where it leads. An intelligent person closes the door when he reaches a conclusion, moving on to other problems, but keeping the key safely in his pocket so he can open it again if he wishes. If he does, it is by his own free will and judgment and not at a brainwasher’s insistence.

      […]

      I noticed in my interviews that practically everyone who got out of the Red trap had to operate, wittingly or unwittingly, as if he had been cornered by a madman waving a
      dagger in his hand. Anyone who tries talking logic at a time like that is a corpse. The fanaticized assailant has to be humored and outmaneuvered. Some would readily use the
      word deceive, others prefer to call it dissembling.

      […]

      High jinks was the most appropriate name I could find for a stamina-giving element that brought the full force of humor into action alongside several other stimulating elements,such as deceit and adaptability.

      *********************

      1. Maria quoted:

        …Out of the experience of all these brainwashed persons came a practical and a satisfying pattern for survival against mental pressures. Such survival knowledge can ultimately destroy communism, internally and externally.

        These elements can be named and listed. They are:
        Faith, convictions, clarity of mind, a closed mind, purpose, keeping one’s mind busy, confidence, deceit, high jinks,adaptability, crusading spirit, group feelings, being yourself.

        Scientology works to get you to turn over your own innate value system qualities as above, and adopt the ones that Hubbard needed you to have. These men fought hard against adopting the communist value system, while Scientologists willingly adopt Hubbard’s because it is the route to Total Freedom for them.

        Given the basics of the subject which Hubbard laid out in the basic books from 1948 – 1956 or so, can you explain how something like the Sea Org fits into that? Doesn’t this development just seem a might outpointy, given what Hubbard said about the subjects of Dianetics and Scientology were all about?

        Alanzo

        1. I would say that most of the issues to do with the Sea Org, most of the ethics and justice materials, and the majority of the PR and marketing materials do not fit in. Not at all.

          I have confirmed to my own satisfaciton that it is exactly as you have suggested, there is a demarcation point in this subject. I have traced it back to 1963.

          I have reviewed my personal experiences with the auditing processes, admin procedures and philosophical materials of Scientology. In just about every case where I have done well and found benefit, they are wholly in keeping with the core and overarching principles that are pre 1963. Weirdly, the booklet, The Way to Happiness, which is the last publication from LRH is in keeping with those principles. Go figure. And those materials are in keeping with the principles outlined in the Hunter materials.

          I believe that the principles outlined by Hunter explain how it is that we are on a blog belonging to an OT8 who is no longer a Scientologist! It also explains the existence of your”Alanzo crusade.”

          But most importantly, it also explains what positive steps can be taken to ensure that methods of working with human beings strengthen their integrity. I broadened my view to include all psychopolitical activities, not just the C of S, with an eye to formulating a set of principles that can be forwarded to proof people up in general.

          So what do you think? Do you think Hunter nailed some of these elements?

        2. Holding out the carrot of eternal life is an important difference, as you point out. I can map my own brainwashing by increments as Vinaire pointed out. I’m going to dip into Maria’s reference to see what I can learn.

          1. I will be most interested to here what you think about the materials. I found it fascinating and quite helpful in sorting out this whole brainwashing scenario. It probably has quite a bearing on the effects of media propaganda as well.

      2. I like you the most in here, Maria and Alonzo. .)
        Vinaire: too engineerish 🙂
        Geir: not capable, really, of being:)
        The others I am not sure about yet.
        – –
        RockmyStar

        1. Dear God!

          Vinaire is too engineerish!!? Surely you’re being too kind. After he rebuffed your offer to control half the universe he really deserves a much more demeaning and derogatory description.

          That offer was very generous of you. Anybody who rebuffs the one and true God should be put in his place. I think a lightning bolt shower around him would be in order. That would be a good demonstration of your power and yet your willingness to be a fair and just God. Then these soon-to-be-sycophants would see the side they needed to choose, and fast. The returned God being here, and all. They must be brought to knee!

          Alas, you’ll have to scratch my name from the list of the faithful and subservient. My weak mind has always struggled to understand the joys of subservience and causes what will I have to be willful. And the times I’ve been unfaithful! OMG!

          I’m sure an omniscient god will understand my failings. I see my true place: I will remain an unworthy, an outcast, and will simply watch your conquest of the universe from the hell of my miserable life.

          1. Lol
            2ndxmr!
            Fascinating id, by the way. .)
            I normally go by other id’s, but I guess I need to give you some slack, 2.
            I do my best to hang in here, but as you most certainly are aware of I have been totally destroyed by the first 3 life units up along our line.
            Fortunately, that is.
            I am now stronger than ever before with my economy as my existing ruin you could say and be very correct.
            By the way, do you know if that is my 1st or 6th dynamic? Honestly.
            I am happy that anyone wants to originate anything at all. I have had pure hell the first 43 years of my life, 2.
            Let’s go totally wild and magically crazy.
            Let me – entertain you!.
            – –
            I am in the middle of a new drawing. I have no clue what it will end up as. Exciting.
            How many questions did I run away from now? .)
            – –
            Slack

            1. Slack,
              “Let me entertain you” X-factor
              The get-in performance

              The in-between performance

              He became the winner. I will leave it up to your fantasy what the winning performance was (or you can check it on the net).

            2. Slack,
              “Let me entertain you” on…
              This photo was taken 2 years ago before the “awakening”. With that I
              have lost 15 kilos and 15 years. Will attach a new photo later, in the meantime you can search for me… a little clue: I have shoulder-length hair, shape of face is much softer…smile free…clothes kind of “crazy”…hope you will find me…won’t be easy…kind of big change…even for me…

            3. Slack
              You are probably reading this. I happen to agree with Geir. You know,
              it is coming through. When I contacted you first I said we were on the “same wavelength”. Then, it was the wavelength of art. Find it. Chill. Get out of the “victim, junior” valences. Get into the “winner” one, or rather, the real YOU. I am sending you the winning song in this row, wishing you to feel and do the same!

            4. I understand you are alive.
              I also understand that you want to communicate with me. However, your communication is not particularly easy to understand.
              Please just get in some harmony in and between your sentences. (Start with a postulate, yes.) That way you will be possible to understand.
              The songclip did not touch me at all. I am glad you liked it, but I go for women voices.
              – –
              Slack

            5. Slack
              Got what you said completely! Thanks for your advice of harmony and
              postulate, I will take your advice! I failed! This is the first time on this blog that it fully happened so. Thanks for that! I truely mean it! In the other thread you answered ” I AM here”. Right! It comes through, so
              no need for me to push it further. I looked at your art – nice. Will visit your blog again, in case you put some new piece there. Also, some
              music with female voices. I love female voices but in this case the winner was a guy. He had not been very successful before the show. Indeed the winning song is about it and also a dream coming true. And there he was.

            6. Slack
              It just dawned on me! You pointed out my “operational level”. You say that ” you are alive…want to communicate….not easy to understand…get some harmony in between the sentences….start with a postulate”. This is the “operational quality” of the Flow of Life. Kind of no-mind that is no postulates. Just a Flow and an Am. The “mind” wants to “understand” every-“thing” but this is a no-“thing”. The “mind” cannot “see” how it communicates because it is the exact Flow
              underneath the “postulates”. It explains a lot of phenomena around “me” (people blow considerations, come up the Tone scale etc.). So far OK. But !! with the word “harmony” you pointed out something that
              I haven’t been aware of as much as I am now with your help! As I am fine, almost perfectly fine, I am not so much interested in making postulates. And it is not good, as it is “irresponsibility”, kind of “no-game”
              when in fact it can be “no-game AND in-game” at the same time. I see it now as very light postulates and the wavelenght of art. Thanks for communicating to me, it has been a great help!

          2. Hehehe and more of the same hehehe.
            “I am glad you know your place you low life!!” The God roared whos name we cant say.. but one letter in the name can be whispered v?

    3. The PTS/SP course, when understood (words cleared deeper than conceptual level) restores affinity towards yourself (including your thoughts), other beings and Life as such. Real affinity which results in
      real communication with what there is – works like a bullet penetrating
      and so one can get even very tough guys into communication, “cracking their case”.

    4. This is for you Marianne,

      Al, as a Marty-outed OSA agent, I give you two SP demerits for this exposure of mind control! I’ll get you my pretty, and your little BLOG too!

      When I behold Scientology, I see “cult fine art.” I see the Mona Lisa of thought control created stroke by stroke by LRH. It’s both sexy and plain at the same time.

      And deadly. And consuming. And dividing. And ENORMOUSLY EXPERIENTIALLY MEANINGFUL to those in its arms. God DAMN it creates meaning for its followers.

      If I started Scientology at age 20, I could never leave it – that’s for sure. If I did, right now, at my current age I would be spouting this:

      ME AS AN LRH CULTY: “I don’t care that Lawrence Wright said that LRH performed abortions on his wives or that LRH abused Polly and Sara mentally and physically or that Nancy Many made a video stating that LRH was IN THE CAPTAINS SEAT OVER Operation Freakout, regardless what Marty and MIke say about his ignorance of the affair. He wasn’t perfect, and I love his tech IT CHANGED MY LIFE.”

      What can cause such devotion?

      Meaning. Deep. Heartfelt. Meaning. Meaning one can FEEL.

      And God damn, we want it like water. Fuck the facts, I can fix those!

      “All teachings have the same goal.” – The Lojong Proverbs.

        1. Meaning is everything! And you have a choice, you can give meaning to life, or you can have meaning being assigned to you by life.

      1. Fuck the facts?

        Why?

        If the facts can’t be changed, why fuck them, why not just accept them?

        All of them.

        All of the bad, the terrible, the insane. Yes, reports indicate all of those.

        But, if I’m willing to accept that, how about you trying to accept that even a messed up scoundrel can have a desire to make things better?

        I will attest to being someone he helped with this technology. More than I could possibly say.

        And I’m not alone. Many, many people have been helped.

        Does the help given to those who will attest to being helped outway the damage? That is impossible to answer but what can be answered is that many of us would like a Scientology without the insanities, and that is entirely possible. Easy, no. Possible, yes.

        So that’s the way I see it: accept, learn, move forward. What else is really needed?

        1. I think what you said is more than fair: “accept, learn, move forward”.

          But to agree to “move forward” together wouldn’t there first need to be, on the “accept” part, some agreement that there does exist in Scientology something of value to more forward with?

          I’m not sure either Alanzo or katageek would agree with that, due to the fact that they don’t trust the intentions of LRH because of his history and thus they believe the practice itself is rigged to harm rather than help. Or, the consideration is that it only works if there is “belief” involved and is thus no better than many other practices, and not as good as some others. I say this because I’ve been reading their posts for a long time now (although they’re welcome to correct me if I’m wrong).

          Nevertheless, for those of us who at least agree that there is value to be salvaged, this is a great starting point: “accept, learn, move forward”. Well said!

        2. I don’t actually suggest “fuck the facts.” I said that in the valence of what I would likely be like if I embraced Scientology at 20 years of age. I would be right along with many others who are locked deeply into the sunk cost bias.

          Your analysis below was exceptional IMHO.

        1. And there is something more profound out of which viewpoints arise-the core stuff of life itself, our common true nature. It gets to be very practical when one’s personal viewpoint is “gone” ( the I ) – one
          gains the ability to pick up and use any viewpoint to play in a game, or just stay in a viewpoint-less state and BE. In the ” now”. It is very practical too, as then one is not giving energy to something which is gone….that is one is not creating again and again the past….the energy of the present is very fresh…alive…this is the energy that can create a new reality…for an instant…then it is gone…living in the Now
          is being that energy (or rather, the potential of energy)….trying to find “meaning” is mental work, grasping on something which is not clearly seen as it is…my reality of it now.

          1. to believe that ones viewpoints are valuable is a consideration…the value is in the ”eyes” of the creator and those who agree with the same viewpoint….as a creation goes they are all equal..and they are all created in the NOW..

            1. E.H.: “to believe that ones viewpoints are valuable is a consideration…the value is in the ”eyes” of the creator and those who agree with the same viewpoint….as a creation goes they are all equal..and they are all created in the NOW..”

              I’d consider that a very valuable viewpoint. While I agree it’s easy to put too much value on one’s own viewpoint, or the viewpoint of some OL (opinion leader) or some crusade, we yet need a reference point for our goals and actions. That, in fact, comes down to a viewpoint. So while we can occupy a viewpoint, it is incumbent on us to consider the existence of alternate, equal viewpoints.

              This was summed up in a lesson learned by Grasshopper in the TV series “Kung Fu”: to the cat, the rat is evil; to the rat, the cat is evil.

            2. Out of no-thing (0) is created every-thing (8), different “manifestations” at the same time…then they are subsiding again into no-thing (0)…there is a connectivity both in 0 and in 8. Seems to me that there is only one spirit (God)…but it’s only a recent glimpse of it on my
              part now…

            3. my reality that the concept of ‘God’ is an implant. and nothing could change that reality. I can give you a phone number of on OT who had done major amount of auditing on that concept ant he have come to the same conclusion as I have.. and we are not the only two who arrived to that fact acfter auditing… But by all means.. god is your reality and that is fine.. go with it..

            4. No need, thanks…I couldn’t use a better term for that…I could have used “infinite spirit”, ‘infinite God”, “infinite substanceless Creativity”…it’s not a concept…a glimpse of it…if it is not so, it’ll change…experience can hardly put into a word when it doesn’t come from the mind…

            5. For Scientologists there is absolutely no need to believe or agree to whatever concept of God or Gods or no God or no Gods. Everybody can have his/her own beliefs, and is going to get his/her own conclusions based on his/her own cognitions based on his/her own processing. However, based on my own processing, my own conclusion is that the beliefs on God or Gods is based on more than only one implant. By the way, the religious belief of each human being having an immortal soul not created by God is not new (this belief belongs to some Gnostic religions).

            6. I am delighted to read your posting… there are implants galore on every ones track which contains the subject of god and what is….That subject holds no interest to me since those implants as creation were very limited in abilities-concepts, the creators imagination was mediocre..

            7. Elizabeth, I have approached the concept of “God” from the viewpoint of the probable creators of the universe. This god or gods (creator or creators) would not necessarily have an interest in mankind as the main religions try to promote.

              However, such beings would be hugely powerful and could potentially be omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. Not that I expect they would, but those qualities are potentials that a god-creator could exercise.

              The reason I suspect there may be multiple beings involved in the creation of a universe has to do with the number of dimensions expected in an operating universe. The whole reasoning behind my creation theory is that it requires nothing to “always have been”, neither matter nor the first being. Beings could have awoken from nothing and beings could create the vibrations we know as matter. I’ve covered the idea earlier in this thread and won’t be a bore about it but what I was interested in was whether you’ve come across mechanisms of universe creation or whether universes have always seemed to be in existence to you.

              Considering that this universe is a mere 15 billion years old and Fac1 was trillions of years ago, there was a lot of time there for beings to figure out what it took to make a universe and how to keep it running. What is your take on creation?

            8. 2ndxmr, are you sure you mean Fac 1 was trillions of years old? In History of Man, LRH says “It was originally laid down in this galaxy about one million years ago.”

              In any case, the other thing I wanted to add to your question to Elizabeth is what she may know about BEFORE MEST UNIVERSE, which LRH also mentions in History of Man. And the time track itself is said to be trillions of years old, so that would be much longer that the physical universe has been in existence, according to scientists – at least this physical universe.

            9. Marildi I have written in this blog and in mine what I have seen, what is outside of this Universe.. this splatter of energy… The physical universe is just a tiny part of what is…

            10. Oh yes, I remember that well. What I’m interested in now is do you have any knowledge of how it was created?

            11. I don’t doubt that I deny that knowledge – not at all! But that’s where I’m still at.

              Your reality is what I’m interested in because you have have directly seen a lot in your auditing.

              You said “evolved”. I guess you mean that the physical universe evolved slowly, getting more and more solid. This is the kind of thing I remember from some of your posts. Do you also recall how the universe, even the very light and barely solid things first got started, or how thetans came to agreements that they all were perceiving the same things?

              And would you agree with scientists that there was a big bang explosion that started the physical universe?

            12. Marildi because reading here about the BIG BANG I become curious and since I never has such a experience recalled there was a possibility I missed something so I read up on that THEORY and it did not triggered off any experience,.

              By now If a concept comes into my space in that instant that concept is confronted and I see pictures, I have reality what they mean and of course the understanding of it comes in cognition.

              But reading about the BIG BANG.. brought nothing.. not one picture, concept. So I decided I look for it is session because I could have miss-placed not-ised that incident existence.

              I could not locate that item and I would like to emphasise here that I have eliminated by now all the secrets, the unknown, the empty, the void, the so called none existent places in which I used to hide things in order to keep them safe.

              I found nothing about such a concept, I have no reality about it and I never have experienced such.

              [ by now I have instant answer an any questions asked]

            13. Elizabeth: (re: big bang theory) “I found nothing about such a concept, I have no reality about it and I never have experienced such.”

              Thank you, Elizabeth. There is no absolute reason you should have track on the formation point of this universe. If it was created by a mechanism involving beings that we are not descended from so that we share some common track (or even if we were) there is no telling what the memory of the creation moment would be.

              It is more likely that most of us are late arrivals to this universe. More likely that we came to play once the sandbox was built and landscaped. Maybe we even waited until bodies had developed to a point. On the other hand, maybe the havingness of a thetan earlier on the track was so high that the being could have the existence of a jellyfish and relish the experience of being eaten by a predator.

              Just that nagging little problem of copies of the experience somehow getting the quality and impact of an engram to spoil it all.

            14. *2ndxmr, thanks for the comm. Now on that I have understanding… But being descendents of being I dont… care to explain that? * *I have on OT friend who talks of such a concepts and machinery I never had reality on. on the other hand he cant see.. or understand how a fairy is, what is it made of, and what created that being-concept.. He cant compridand “magic” what is and many other ” lightweigh” considerations I am familiar with.* *If I am a new commer here to this universe that I find news because I have seen how the so called first ”brigh”’ness have come about.* *But to this smoldering pile of mass, yes I am new here, little over 2600 years is very short period as in years, and I have had about 20 life times.. the body ecperience.. * * As experiences goes… way back.. they were just that… what is bad- and what is good those concepts are very new…* **

            15. Elizabeth, can you tell that experience again about how the first “brightness” came about? I remember you talked about light in one of your posts and I was about to ask you about that, but this “brightness” you refer to may be the same thing.

            16. the information you seek you already have, but you deny that knowledge..

              On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:53 AM, elizabeth hamre wrote:

              > evolved.. I only have my reality.. > >

            17. “”I was interested in was whether youve come across mechanisms of universe creation or whether universes have always seemed to be in existence to you. “”

              I am not so sure I understand your question: if I have seen created Universes, with mechanisms? You live in one. Earth is one, everything in it is mechanically created, everything, there is no exception.

              Is the MEST Universe is 15 billion years old? When there is no time existing how could be existence measured? 2 No one other than humans are interested what humans are, being human, have a human life is on implanted item. Being human contains a set of consideration-assumptions and collected agreements, and the agreements make it ”’seem”’ solid… but it is not…No consideration can be solid no matter how many agrees to its existence. When considerations-assumptions and agreement as-ised the human nature of the spiritual being no longer exist. God.. to be god like and can do what gods usually do…. those are again considerations and exist only if one believes they exist. The idea of god was created for many reasons, I could give you few dozen for starter

              Power it self is a concept….to have it or not having it., others have it how much any one has is also a consideration…and they belong to the MEST because it is considered it exist..

              The Spiritual Universe contains no thought- no considerations, no identities and definitely no singularity… therefore no measurement of time exist. and definitely gods are out… or never been. I have experienced many different realities… and I can clearly recall the awareness of the first light. I know what is there when one lives the Universe… not just the MEST. but all of it..

            18. ”I was interested in was whether you’ve come across mechanisms of universe creation or whether universes have always seemed to be in existence to you.”

              E. I think what 2ndxmr is asking is whether you feel the universe (not just the MEST universe) has always been in existence. That’s a question I would be interested in too.

            19. Only MEST has duration because it is believed it has, but infinite is… yet infinite too is a concept a consideration… there is no forever, eternity, there is no past and there is no future those too are concepts-considerations.. ONLY THE MOMENT OF CREATION- EXPERIENCE IS-exist that is called “NOW”. You may ask what is my experience without considerations….of death etc

            20. *2ndxmr*: If you care to know more about gods i can give you a name of a person who has solo audited those concepts and it has taken him months about 2 session a day… you see he was not just a god…. but he has been the mighty god.. and had the power to go with that.

            21. Elizabeth
              I think I first got close to what you are doing….you find it fun to look at each concept and know everything about it. Is that right? If so, besides it being fun, why is it essential for a being (like me) to know everything (origin, who made it first etc)? Also, will you write a little about your reality of “magic”? Only if you like….

            22. When I look at, examine a concept I look at not just what one see around here on this planet — like what is a apple means here what its purpose having it… by the time I have finished with that Item I have seen everything about that apple and I even find the original postulate where and when that apple was created way back when, in different sector of the universe and what was the reason than and what is the reason we have apples here, why it is popular and used as a product which is put into the body and what kind of energy flows it has and how that energy effects the body the being..

              The magic.. what is if you would have read some of the posting in my blog which than you would know what is magic means to me.. Sabre toothed pussy cat is one of them. I will not get into why you should have auditing…

            23. To see a dewdrop is delightful, to see millions of them in them in the meadows in the morning well they transport one into different realm, but to understand where it has originated and what was the reason it was postulated into existence. well… I cant explain how I ”feel” knowing such a information. And by now I have explored every concept I know, I could think of and finding out their origin.. what caused them to be in the first place…yes.. fun it is.

            24. Maridi, I will answer your question… but first what is your reason you want to read it again what I have experienced?

              On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 3:32 PM, elizabeth hamre wrote:

              > To see a dewdrop is delightful, to see millions of them in them in the > meadows in the morning well they transport one into different realm, but > to understand where it has originated and what was the reason it was > postulated into existence. well… I cant explain how I ”feel” knowing > such a information. > And by now I have explored every concept I know, I could think of and > finding out their origin.. what caused them to be in the first > place…yes.. fun it is. > > > > > > >

            25. I’m interested because I know that you’ve seen things and know things about the universe that no one else that I know of has.

            26. That is true.. but by now that should be so since no other persons have what I done. and still doing. By the way,. many occasion when I write about the track some idiot writes here and tells me what I should handle because this is out, that is out etc… etc.. and they give me a list… hehehe. the most interesting thing that those who tell me what I should handle had so far very little auditing or none at all, but they KNOW THE TECH.. . answer your phone.

          2. Marianne: “trying to find “meaning” is mental work, grasping on something which is not clearly seen as it is…my reality of it now.”

            A really good point. When you’re living in the present with a focus on creating a future, meaning is pretty much meaningless. You have to go back in time to look for meaning – mental work that distracts from present focus.

            Katageek may not be entirely wrong: for some people maybe “meaning” is what they hold onto as an explanation of why they remortgaged their home to make an IAS contribution. Personally I never, ever agreed with that nonsense or many of the other “nonsenses” that were pushed at us.

            I think the full revelation of any “bad” LRH did is a good thing to clear the air. It is one of the necessary steps to ensure we learn how to avoid similar problems in the future. A possible recurrence of the issues can’t be discounted and we need to evolve a way to deal with it quickly – to really evolve a Qual that has the goal of workable tech and where ethics becomes a thing a person wants to get “in” on themselves. I actually saw that sort of environment when I entered Scientology at a small mission. Not perfect, but close enough that there was terrific harmony between staff an public. If I had to hold on to a “meaning” that would be it.

            But I don’t.

            1. Marianne… long as there is the ”I self me” exist than there is the value, the belief, even the very knowledge-viewpoint that it is ”NOW” .With out the “I Me Self” than all is equal or none existent. One cant have the “I”gone”” and still believe one creates…

          1. Yes, perfectly fine…also, it’s not “belief”…it’s experience and how I live…how life is lived…..for the time being. Also, I love this wild rhythm…just “popped up”. For a change.

            1. Yes…. the so called life–the implants do supply wonderful pictures and stimulations.. these stimulations can be glorious.. enjoy.. they are yours. Huge having-ness.. No wonder people dont want to get into sessions… they fear they might lose such experience.

            2. “they are yours”…not really…havingness is ” feeling, experiencing” all over without becoming that…I have no problem with being a stimulator or being stimulated…I can enjoy being no-thing, being with an “enlightened being”, being the rhythm of a music, any emotion, any elevated spiritual experience, the sound of the rain (it is raining now)….just all I can experience…in the moment…then it goes
              away…being in “session” is being in the middle of an experience
              and knowing that out of this no-thing some-thing is being created…the mind can label it with a concept out of fear that it will go
              away or cannot/won’t be created again…or stop labelling..
              one can have the REAL SENSE of being no-thing…then the fear is gone….actually there is no such thing as losing…one cannot lose something which has never been one’s own…
              who goes into session, I don’t know…noone can be forced, not even asked to do so….the most you can do is be present…people then ask and may go there…may or may not stay…despite the best auditing…you know it better then I do…
              one can live in the Now and Let Life create for the one….I mostly live that way…believe it or not, I have never heard this Bon Jovi song before…two concepts popped up in “my mind”, I went to google for
              a minute and there it was…no effort, no thinkingness, not even intention…just sensing….I am happy to live this way….it may change, I don’t
              know…what I see around me is, that it has a changing effect on others around me…as you have different reality, as you say that, no
              need for you to answer.

            3. I wonder why you are bothering writing to me: why you have and what you have do not need explanation we all done the basic courses and a bit more.. and learned about the bank- mind and how its operates controls the being.

            4. Marianne there is nothing wrong with knowing one has the bank,,, if one is an this Planet than one has one… If one would not have one than one would not know WHAT IS EXPERIENCING MEANS. We can only experience what we have, and rain.. flowers, etc.. whatever that experience is in that moment, one only can know of it if one has those pictures and energy which they contains the energy which those pictures contain IS THE EXPERIENCE OF THE MOMENT THE STIMULATION one has. it is not crime having one…nothing wrong with having one.. the crime is committed against self when knowing about it its affects and have the tech but not using it in order to confront -understand what is there.

              On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:35 AM, elizabeth hamre wrote:

              > I wonder why you are bothering writing to me: why you have and what > you have do not need explanation > we all done the basic courses and a bit more.. and learned about the bank- > mind and how its operates controls the being. > >

        1. Great video Marianne. Thank you.

          Meaning is the siren’s lure. As he alludes to, we must give it up for the higher reality to dawn.

          In Soto Zen, that is in “giving up” in Zazen. Just sitting with no goal. No meaning. Reality itself embraced with no goal to embrace it.

  29. Well, I really was not referring to an LRH description of brainwashing. I got it from this article:

    From the book “Secret, Don’t Tell — The Encyclopedia of Hypnotism” by Carla Emery https://sites.google.com/site/mcrais/emery

    *************************************
    “…the day has come when we can combine sensory deprivation with drugs, hypnosis and astute manipulation of rewards and punishment to gain almost absolute control over an individual’s behavior…a very rapid and highly effective type of positive brainwashing that would allow us to make dramatic changes in a person’s behavior and personality…[in] a few months—or perhaps even less than that…

    “The techniques of behavioral control make even the hydrogen bomb look like a child’s toy, and, of course, they can be used for good or evil. But we can no more prevent the development of this new psychological methodology than we could have prevented the development of atomic energy…
    – McConnell, Psychology Today, April 1970

    “When James V. McConnell announced the new method of positive brainwashing in the article quoted above, he was a famous Michigan behaviorist. In the early 1970s, he trained flatworms by electric shocks to prefer the lighted tunnel to the dark one. He edited and published both The Journal of Biological Psychology and the Worm Runner’s Digest, a radical behaviorist periodical. If anybody outside the Company knew what happened when you put all the MKULTRA research together and applied it with the goal of personality restructuring to a single subject, it would be McConnell. In that article, he urged readers to adopt

    “…a revolutionary viewpoint toward society and its problems. Today’s behavioral psychologists are the architects and engineers of the Brave New World… (Ibid., p. 74)

    “He suggested temporary incarceration for antisocial persons while they were being “cured” by means of this new technology. The subject would be housed in a “rehabilitation center” while experts “restructure his entire personality.” McConnell argued:

    “No one owns his own personality. Your ego, or individuality, was forced on you by your genetic constitution and by the society into which you were born. You had no say about what kind of personality you acquired, and there’s no reason to believe you should have the right to refuse to acquire a new personality if your old one is antisocial… (Ibid.)”

    *************************************

    Plus, I have been reading on this really cool website, here is an article I stumbled on there on brainwashing, including the history of it.

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2588/is-brainwashing-possible

    And he led me to this article on brainwashing:
    http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/globalism/Congress.htm

    Which led me to this online reprint of a Russian textbook on psychopolitics, which incidentally is the subject and even the title of the book that the C of S published as a public service in 1955:

    http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/brainwsh.shtml

    It all makes for good reading and great food for thought. Its why I sent you the links to those videos — did you ever get the links I sent you by email?

    If you ever wondered if I thought your info and opinions had any merit, there is your answer — plenty enough to go and research the topics you bring up and quite extensively too!

    1. Maria, to me, any state that departs from the native state is a brainwashed state. That is the view from eastern psychology.

      A brainwashed state is essentially “attachment to considerations.” Thus, ego represents the brainwashed state. One is born with it. What behavioral psychology is doing is simply messing around with the “attachment to considerations.” By the use of electric shocks, drugs, punishments, etc. such attachments are simply being rearranged. Some of these rearrangements are radical and others not so radical. These are simply various gradients of brainwashing.

      All that behaviral psychology is doing is working out how to make ‘desirable’ rearrangements of “attachment to considerations”. But the original aim of auditing was to get rid of all such attachments toconsiderations so that one could freely deal with any and all considerations.

      The Scientology culture then went against the original aims of auditing. It is no longer a native state that Scientology is going for. It is going for a rearrangement of “attachment to considerations” that ensures the survival of Scientology.

      .

  30. I have added the following exercise to KHTK EXERCISE SET 2

    EXERCISE 3

    PURPOSE: To address a stuck picture.

    CONCEPT:
    Something is keeping that picture there. It may be because the picture contains something that has become scarce, and, thus, valuable. Therefore, a person cannot let go of it. Making copies of that picture may make one look at that picture more thoroughly. This may reveal why the attention is stuck on that picture.
    .

    1. Make sure you understand the 12 steps of mindfulness thoroughly.

    2. Look at that picture. Do not go digging in the mind. Simply look at what is sitting right there in front of the mind’s eye.

    3. If possible, move that picture to a comfortable distance from you.

    4. Make a copy of that picture and place it beside the original.

    5. Repeat step 4 making more and more copies and placing them all over. Do this until the attention starts to free up from the original picture.

    Note: This may take just a few or many, many copies. You will know when you have made enough copies.

    6. Now do whatever you wish with all those copies. Dispose of them in any manner you please. Burn them up; throw them away, whatever you want.

    7. Check to see if you can still make that picture newly, without having the attention stuck.

    8. If the attention still sticks to that picture, or to parts of it, then repeat this procedure with whatever is still sticky.
    .

    A version of this exercise exists in Idenics as well as in Scientology (See THE CREATION OF HUMAN ABILITY).

    This exercise is quite workable without the assistance of E-meter when mindfulness is applied.

    .

  31. 2013-01-28 at 00:18
    Chris wrote: “Marty has changed…He was thoroughly trashed for his recent “liberal” comments after Tom Martiniano’s letter by the truly true-believers. He’s had to back peddle but time will tell what his agenda is or evolves into. (These comments are my own opinions and not connected to the isene.me blog.)”

    I don’t see that Marty has back pedaled at all. Just read his latest blog post. And he certainly wasn’t “trashed”, with the majority of posters taking his viewpoint.

    However, a balanced view and one of the best comments on that thread, if not the very best, was this one by our own Valkov:

    Start of quote:
    ——————————————————————
    January 28, 2013 at 1:05 am
    Here’s my take on the recent debates and discussions.

    I read Marty’s “mission statement” as a purely personal statement of insight and accomplishment. It is a plateau he has reached that others may reach sooner or later.

    If you see eye to eye with it, great! You can hold it as an ideal or maybe you have actually accomplished to a similar level; but to Marty,it is an actuality because he has already lived it and continues to live it.

    The 3 points of Integrate, Evolve, and Transcend are right enough but there are conditions attached to the actual attainment of them and they are not in truth “states” of attainment or status,but action words that point to ongoing processes of living. One never achieves a status of “I have evolved and therefore I am done evolving. Now I’ll just watch TV and drink beer forever.”

    Let’s look at the first step of Integrating. One must first Integrate Tech into himself, before one can integrate it into society. This simply parallels the dynamics. As the dynamics are somewhat arbitrary divisions of the overall Dynamic, one integrates Tech into oneself by applying it to society, if only to one individual at a time. Thus it is always “by our own bootstraps” that each of us moves on up higher. There is always a leap of faith involved, that “if I do this, this will result”. Even though we stand on the shoulders of those who went before, it is still at first a step based on faith, expectation not yet known to one’s self as fact.

    This is why what Tom wrote is as right, as what Marty has written. It is neither necessary nor desirable to disagree with Tom, in order to agree with Marty. Or vice-versa.
    In order to evolve and transcend, one needs to be able to integrate both viewpoints in a non-reactive way, because they are each valid at the particular level of game they are addressing.

    I was born and grew up in the Far East and it seems to me the West lacks a sense of discipline. As LRH said, the dominant philosophy in the West has been to survive by “striking a hard blow”. In the East, it has been to survive by disciplining one’s self in the face of adversity.

    LRH brought the very Eastern concept of discipline through drilling, to the West. Scientology training is all about “drilling”, drilling, drilling.

    It’s totally parallel to Asian methods of training in martial arts, for example. One does what the Japanese call “kata” (forms), over and over and over rotely and without variation until one masters them, building on the most elementary ones towards an increasing complexity of effortless action. This is reflected in Scientology training through the Academy Levels, on to the SHSBC and then Class VIII. Each step leading to increased understanding and ability to judge accurately. Thus it is inappropriate to insist for a student auditor just beginning training on the Academy Levels to “evolve” and “transcend”. KSW is appropriate for him. One must learn to walk before he can run, much less fly.

    And incidentally, the word “yoga” is derived from the same root as the word “yoke”. It denotes a discipline one assumes of one’s own free will. Thus I see KSW as appealing to each individual’s free will, asking each to assume responsibilty for executing Tech as exactly as possible, in accordance with his own level of understanding of Tech.

    This is how I perceive the spirit and intent of Tom’s “op ed”.

    This IS how anyone begins. This is what KSW refers to, or “Keeping Buddhism Working”, or “Keeping Kungfu Working” or whatever. But there is another aspect to this, too.

    Many religions have an “outer” and an “inner” aspect. The outer aspect has to do with the idea that not everyone will attain enlightenment very quickly, if at all. For these people, a good religion provides rules and mores to follow which lead to decent social behavior and restrains contrasurvival behavior as well as constructive directions for more successful living.

    The inner aspect is the actual training in the philosophy and tech of the religion for those so inclined. The CoS has failed spectacularly in both aspects.

    Judging by what Sarge reported to Lawrence Wright about LRH’s state of mind in his last weeks, about
    feeling he had “failed”, I think LRH saw how far short of his goals he had fallen, in establishing the CoS as a “good” church in accordance with his own ideals. But that’s an aside.

    The point is one must learn Tech before one can Integrate it, and one must Integrate it before one can Evolve it, and only then can one Transcend it. Thus it does begin with KSW. It is like LRH did say, that some people have it confused with “the right to have their own ideas”. These kind compulsively “do things my own way” in opposition to anyone else’s way. This fixation of course simply constricts them and makes them unable to learn from others and leads them to reinvent the wheel over and over again. Such a one can’t learn any Tech because of a simple inability to discipline one’s self by following directions.

    One cannot “transcend” by choosing Marty over Tom, or Tom over Marty. One limits one’s self by identifying one’s self with either viewpoint to the exclusion of the other. One falls away from pan-determinism by doing so. I think it’s in FOT, that “identity closes space”. That’s it in a nutshell. I think Ken Wilbur’s synthesis of Western Individual Psychology and Eastern Transpersonal Psychology into a series of evolutionary steps by which an individual, expands and rises above that from which he starts, addresses this kind of issue. In order to evolve, one has to be able to perceive and validate the rightness of what appear to be opposed or incompatible viewpoints.

    Think about this – how many people in the entire world, have grasped and mastered enough of LRH’s Tech to Integrate, Evolve, and then actually Transcend it? How many, out of what – 7,000,000,000 people?

    I’d guess a small handful. Only practiced Auditors and C/Ses. That’s Marty’s actual public for this mission statement. Who else will understand? ESMB? Tony O’s fan club? OSA? I think not.

    Marty, I’m sure glad you’re were here to publish this, and give us all a place to post our thoughts. This blog has done me a world of good.

    Tom, I’m equally glad you stepped up to the plate to write and publish your Op-ed.

    Thank you, guys!

    1. Yes that was a great write-up by Valkov!

      I would add that it is pretty clear that Marty has been cracking the books and coming up to speed on current philosophical thought, religious practices and beliefs, and all kinds of cultural material. This is not an overnight project! I know, I have been at it most of my life and have been working at full tilt on it for the last few years! I have to say, he sure is a fast study!

      He also has done something that I think is really smart, and that is to personally audit three people up the bridge outside of the established Church, and with none of the hide-bound and coercive strictures and behaviors that go with that culture. In doing so, he fully demonstrated to himself that auditing alone can be beneficial and in and of itself and that it does not, by itself, result in a state of mind that fosters cult mentality.

      As he has gone along on his blog, he has more and more dropped any effort to put a spin on information to do with the Church, LRH, various Scientology materials and even individuals. i.e. you cannot defend the indefensible. He seems to have made his peace with that and with that he has gotten to a point where he is more likely to simply say — yep, that is what happened. Ugly as it is, Wonderful as it is. It IS what it is. He seeks to posit reasons for what happened as a possible antidote for the future, or he may provide context that he is aware of. Sometimes he gets pissed off!

      I think he has come to fully embrace the rights of individuals to their own beliefs and the rights of all in terms of individual liberty.

      1. Wow!
        To you, Maria (from a post somewhere over):
        Three of them can’t be said to be possible to reach when forced upon: confidence, be yourself and purpose.
        I guess you are right in the middle of your own integrity. ??!!!
        Correct me if I was wrong. 🙂
        – –
        RockmyStar

          1. These elements can be named and listed. They are:
            Faith, convictions, clarity of mind, a closed mind, purpose, keeping one’s mind busy, confidence, deceit, high jinks,adaptability, crusading spirit, group feelings, being yourself. 3 of them is wrong, (minimum).
            – –
            in the middle of your integrity – I’m only asking if you feel or know or whatever Follow your heart? That’s all, Maria. nice name, by the way.
            – –
            RockmyStar
            OT IIIII X X

          2. Well Slack, you should read the book I excerpted from — I put the link up so people could go and read it.

            I see this list as pointing in a general direction, I have not fully integrated into my own set of principles, and I will be reviewing each of the items on that list. If nothing else, it will certainly serve as a means of clarifying my own state of mind and purpose.

            1. Thank you, one more time. .)
              There is a couple of words I take full responsibility for, in and out of scientology by the way.
              – They are: humble, integrity and happily unknowing
              The two first have been guiding you guys away from the real concept.
              – The third is a term I have created just recently. It reflects how I am right now. True – all of my reply. This time! – Lol
              – –
              RockMyStar: http://wp.me/p37g0E-g
              Slack, OT XIII,5: http://wp.me/P2VI6K-2
              .)

      2. +1 on everything you wrote, Maria. I think I have either thought or commented on every point, including “Sometimes he gets pissed off!” LOL

        You summarized the story beautifully!

        1. Thanks! I think it is important to add that one of the people that he has audited is his wife Mosey, someone he really, really cares about. He has since divulged that her dad is a trained psychologist, and while Church policy would disqualify her as a potentional source of trouble, I believe that having her dad in the picture is of great benefit, for he would likely respond very antagonistically to a practice that resulted in harm to his daughter.

          This is speculation, but it seems to me that Moseys influence cannot be discounted in the evolution that Marty is chronicling on his blog. She must be supportive, very supportive or he would not have an environment that made it possible for him to continue his efforts. So kudos to Mosey!

          1. Oh yes, that’s another thing I’ve thought about. Mosey must be his support staff in so many ways, not to mention her spiritual benefit to him just as the being she is,

            Btw, I remember a comment Marty made regarding talking to her father early on (I think it was before he had even let on about his past Scn history), asking him about his profession and finding out that his views and practice were pretty Scientological.

            One thing I’ve been wondering about in recent weeks (or months?) is that Marty hasn’t said much if anything about Mosey, but I don’t read every single thing. Anyway, I’m sure she’s wearing a number of hats!

      1. 2ndxmr.. is it need to be hush mail..???
        I do have great difficulty writting this days. About 5 weeks back I lost to many human abilities after a cognition.. I am just stating to get some connection.. I could call you on the phone.. talkig is a bit easier than writting.. Will you please give your answer endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com I have tough time finding the letters on the computer thing.. I aim for p but who knows what letter will pop up. seldome i get what I want..

    2. Shucks, I’m surprised to find it posted over here. Thanks marildi!

      I want to give credit to whom credit is due, and that is to Geir who has nurtured me from the beginning of my involvement online, through his The Scientology Forum and then here on his blog. He has consistently provided a safe environment for my posting which has allowed me to clarify my own thinking as well as learn much from all the bright and giving people posting here who have co-created this environment along with Geir.

      Thanks Geir and y’all !

      1. You did us proud, Val! Your eloquent post did a lot to tie all the different truths together and dissolve the dilemmas and schisms. And I’ve noticed that since I posted it here quite a few others over on Marty’s blog have had similar responses to it, in their replies to you. I think you have influenced the future of Scientology in no small way with your insight. All your study and reflection on Scientology and a lot of other knowledge have paid off already. Carry on! 🙂

    3. Even though Valkov’s post was very good, people have a different opinions.

      I would like to add some info about the “schism” still not covered in this thread. The best commenters are CommunicatorIC and Terril Park.

      http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?30335-Schism-continues!-Fundamentalist-KSW-Wahhabi-wing-of-IS-movement-gets-breakaway-blog!

      http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?30342-Marty-How-to-Study-Scientology-(Another-shot-in-the-KSW-Wars-)

      1. CommunicatorIC 31st January 2013, 12:05 PM

        “As I see it, this a continuation of the fight described in the thread on the Great Schism. The schism is between: (1) Marty, Mike and the (at least relatively) liberal wing of Independent Scientology (IS); versus (2) Tom Martiniano, Steve “Thoughtful” Hall, Jim Logan, and the fundamentalist, strict KSW interpretation, Wahhabi wing of IS.

        As a preliminary, tentative, inexact and gross taxonomy, Tom Martiniano, Steve “Thoughtful” Hall, Jim Logan, and the fundamentalist, strict KSW interpretation, Wahhabi wing of IS:

        (1) believe that everything, or almost everything, that is wrong with the “corporate” Church of Scientology is due to David Miscavige;

        (2) have very little, if any, tolerance for criticism of Hubbard and policies clearly authored by him;

        (3) want a strict interpretation of KSW, and try to avoid problems with the application of KSW by saying that (a) KSW applies only to red-on-white HCOBs, and not green-on-white HCOPLs, and/or (b) any objectionable policies were not in fact authored by Hubbard;

        (4) at the very least see no value in and have no patience for “other practices,” and believe reading works by other philosophers and thinkers is at best a waste of time; and,

        (5) while perhaps not at “war” with the “psychs” are much less tolerant of same.

        In contrast, Marty, Mike and the liberal wing of IS:

        (1) admit that some of the problems of Scientology arise both from policies authored by Hubbard and his personality;

        (2) will listen to and consider criticism of Hubbard and policies clearly authored by him;

        (3) admit some policies authored by Hubbard are objectionable, and therefore do not believe in a strict interpretation of KSW;

        (4) aren’t paranoid about other practices, and indeed read and consider other philosophers, thinkers, etc. (note the authors on Marty’s recommended reading page); and

        (5) aren’t at war with the “psychs” and will consider psychological and even psychiatric thought (note that Marty’s father-in-law is a psychologist, one of the books on his recommended reading page is by a psychiatrist, and another book on the recommended reading page is by a psychologist).”

        http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?30342-Marty-How-to-Study-Scientology-(Another-shot-in-the-KSW-Wars-)/page6

        1. Thanks, Ferenc. That’s a pretty good general summary of the schism. Perhaps a basic way to resolve this schism is the idea you and I agreed to one time on a previous thread, regarding the importance and necessity of having structure as well as the freedom and ability to go outside that structure.

          Another commenter, Indie-saurus-rex, came to a similar conclusion in relation to the schism among Independent Scientologists:

          “My point here is just that a person needs a solid, safe and structured foundation of LRH and his technology in order to be able to ‘think outside the box’ with it…”

          Here’s an excerpt of his/her post which leads up to the above conclusion:

          “ …My perspective is that I agree with both Tom and Marty. Actually, I mostly agree with Marty, in that things have come a long way and there is much to be learned and experienced from other perspectives on the mind/spirit. People should not close themselves off from looking as the truth prevails, even if it’s only ‘your” truth…’

          “However, where I disagree with Marty and tend to side with Tom – and this is a perspective that I never see raised within these “Indie” discussions – is that it’s pretty easy for someone like Marty (or any other long-time Scientologist who has suffered at the hand of Miscavige’s Church) to now hold the perspective that rigidity in terms of following LRH is a counterproductive practice. I say it’s ‘easy’ because it’s always easy to know the truth when one has experienced falsity and lies. It’s easy to know white when one has experienced much black. The garbage that you’ve experienced in corporate Scientology helps clearly delineate the benefits and shortcomings of other religions and spiritual practices. What might be easy for you to spot and accept or spot and avoid might be very difficult for a newcomer to LRH’s works.

          “My point here is just that a person needs a solid, safe and structured foundation of LRH and his technology in order to be able to ‘think outside the box’ with it…”

          http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/01/26/mission-statement/#comment-252162

            1. Aha, so it was YOU who started the whole schism. 🙂

              Seriously though, I don’t think there is anything in that blog post that I would disagree with, including this:
              ——————–
              “I believe few areas warrant a monopoly and only areas subject to democracy could be candidates.

              “The military, the police and the court systems are monopolies for good reasons. They are also an agent of democracy”…

              “As Scientology is intended to set people free, the technology itself should be free.”
              ———————-

              Right after that last sentence, you wrote the following:

              “I can hear readers object to this with reference to the policy letter Keeping Scientology Working…”

              I had a thought that: Within a Scn “society” (i.e. a Scn group but not a Scn monopoly group) couldn’t KSW be viewed as similar to “the military, the police and the court systems”? Just as those monopoly entities, which allow no competition, are the means to ensure the continuance of a society that promotes freedom, so might KSW be considered as the means to ensure a Scn group’s continued promotion of freedom. In other words, that PL – summarized in the word “results” – could be viewed as simply “keeping order” so that freedom can be brought about.

            2. Well – any agent of democracy can be changed – by the will of the people. KSW cannot. Therein lies a difference, methinks.

              Otherwise – glad you liked it.

            3. MARILDI HAVE ASKED ME TO WRITE THIS, SO THIS IS FOR YOU MY DEAR YOU AND YOUR BELOVED SISTER.

              OK lets tart from the beginning: Before The Universe Was Created.
              There was awareness and nothing more and the awareness’s experience was the Translucent Indigo Darkness and nothing more and this indigo darkness was not dark- black but beautiful translucent and now we can give a name to it: Infinite-ness and this Universe was full of itsy-bitsy light particles, and these particles had sounds to them, that is the sound of magic, I would call that when something is created postulated into existence that act would make a that sound but the ears could not hear, pick up such a sound.
              So in this Indigo Universe concepts did not existed yet: or singularity, or beings.. This Universe just was.
              My first experience was in session when I have seen myself becoming the LIGHT, the first light in the Universe… and that session was 30 years back so I did not understood everything what that light was about, how it become a light and why I believed that I WAS THE LIGHT OF THE UNIUVERSE…. Hehehe… by finding that incident than and believe it that it was true have boosted my ego and given me belief that I was better than others, different from others and I am more powerful than others.
              About the above: that is a different topic altogether.. and the answer is yes and no, but never ever better, just different.. and about power hehehe .. you need to ask.. Otherwise I won’t tell unless you twist something and not on my body..
              What happens in sessions that not necessarily the incident is totally erased at the first confronting and one will go back to the same item again and again and take off confront more; and each time see the same item in different light attain different viewpoints and as-is more mass. and have new cognition on the same item.
              That is what has happened with that LIGHT I have experienced and I have believed that I have become one and I was the glorious gift to mankind: well I believe idiocy was born just about than tooooooo…. Hehehe, but of course out of ignorance….
              The light, the bright-ness happened because particles touched by swirling, moving so fast and colliding and that collision caused the explosion of light, the flare up. So suddenly for the first time in the Indigo Universe was one light, one bright spot, one anchor point was born.
              Any ‘’awareness’’ who were present of course EXPERIENCED THAT LIGHT and because having that experience one got stuck to the brightness: therefore anchored into it solidly.
              Because one was stock to that light one believed one was the light… of course that belief come much later with time when concepts were added to energy masses and in session now when one recalls that incident and SAY: I AM THE LIGHT!! hehehe.. Sure you are of course you were..
              You have experienced the first phenomenon the basic incident, the source from where everything is flowing out of. But are you real one, the light?
              One’s body is full of decaying matter and you experience that decaying energy mass continually it is part of your space but that experiencing make you a piece of shit? Really, I am shit of the universe!!! hehehe.. of course you are… all concepts are equal in value….. this is fun
              So you can see when one experience something with that one believes that one is and identifies with that energy mass and that belief usually is far from the truth.
              To continue: how I have seen the Universe evolve: After the first accidental creation of light which was admired by who knows how many: since that time bodies not existed or shapes of any kind and all who experienced that phenomenon that creation wanted to re-new that experience again and GET THE STIMULATION AGAIN…[ addiction was born, so was lets have it bigger, better, more] and went on irritating those tiny light particles to movement fast that they would collide again and by god, we had another light-brightness born!!
              There was hush in the universe, there was magic!!
              The second light was the first causative action in the Universe..
              Wow… now suddenly we had distance too because we had two lights, 2 anchor points [ but the title the name ‘’’ distance’’ was added much later].
              But we were always been brilliant [stupidity its existence too was established much later] now we had ‘’’the experience’’’ and knowledge: if you move particles fast enough than they will collide and we have a new experience a new light will come about appear: born. HEHEHE
              Yes… so the creation started and lights flared up all over the Indigo Universe and caused the our magnificent home that translucent indigo place look dark and drab.. the impression have come from that ’’’drawn by the light like a moth’’’
              Because experiencing the ‘’’LIGHT”” after that the Indigo Universe looked darker and drabber in contrast of ‘’’light” and by now because of the contrast we established the DAY and NIGHT phenomenon. [ most people want to live in the city… it is brighter there, more stimulation can be experienced: the particles flow faster and faster and they collide…. Bingo: stimulation is there.. Look at sex what is: particles rubbed together and that’s creates explosion of the senses; little light particles go whoosh.
              The Indigo Universe is far from drab and dark… since there are many who were not lured trapped by the light since light is a trap because in light one can ‘’see’’ pictures-shapes debts and that is the illusion.. And that Indigo Universe is the true spiritual universe one’s home.
              We beings ‘’see ‘’ very differently from what the eyes see.
              We all identified our self with the brightness-light, we all use it as an anchor point to this day..
              And we have turned away from the infinite translucent indigo space and we believe that life exist only in the light, what the ‘’’eyes’’ can see is real and we have forgotten… you have forgotten that in the translucent indigo space in the infinite where the real life is..
              The completeness, the beauty, the magic: it exists and one doesn’t need the body or have eyes to experience, to be the part or the whole-ness of the universe of Infinite.

            4. Elizabeth, thank you so much for that incredible story of Creation! I can’t tell you how thrilling it is to have someone be able to describe it from actual recall of the experience. That’s what makes it so special! And what is really amazing too is that you have described what LRH stated in The Factors, but from you I got a better “picture” of it and you filled in some gaps for me.

              This paragraph you wrote was particularly interesting:

              “The light, the bright-ness happened because particles touched by swirling, moving so fast and colliding and that collision caused the explosion of light, the flare up. So suddenly for the first time in the Indigo Universe was one light, one bright spot, one anchor point was born. Any ‘’awareness’’ who were present of course EXPERIENCED THAT LIGHT”.

              When we talked on the phone today, you were saying that it was TWO that met and caused the explosion that created the light and that reminded me of 2ndxmr’s comment in this thread about “yin and yang” coming together and creating the big bang.

              And, btw, I imagine that someone who knows the Bible well would be able to correlate it to the story of “God” creating “the heavens” and “then there was light”. Even the part in the Bible about acquiring knowledge and thus the considerations of good and evil, light and dark, etc . It’s also interesting that Jesus said “I am the light” and “No man cometh to the Father except through Me” – perhaps by that he is referring to that “basic-basic” incident as you called it. Don’t laugh but you also reminded me of a Sunday school song we used to sing: “This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine…” 🙂

              I haven’t gotten ahold of my sister yet but as I told you on the phone, I know she is going to love reading about this too! I’ll let you know.

              One other thing. You wrote:

              “…by finding that incident then and believe it that it was true have boosted my ego and given me belief that I was better than others, different from others and I am more powerful than others.

              “About the above: that is a different topic altogether.. and the answer is yes and no, but never ever better, just different.. and about power hehehe .. you need to ask..”

              Okay, I’m asking… 🙂

            5. Thank you Marildi for twisting Elizabeth’s thingy and getting her to speak.

              As I read the dissertation I could not help but think how our dear friend, the Flogger of Fractals would be kept busy chewing on both sides of his mouth with this data… In a good way. 🙂

              More than just a confirmation of an idea, the astonishing thing is that the idea of two coming together in a creation moment is so nearly ubiquitous that its echo is seen throughout the fractal mirrors in nature. Its there to be seen, yet it isn’t.

              Light and dark, Yin and Yang, male and female, the DNA double helix, positive and negative, electricty and magnetism, magnetic poles, dichotomies… how many echoes of the first pairing does it take to see the light?!!

              It damn near makes a digital 1 and 0 look like an erotic pairing.

              More fun ahead. Past/present. Present/future. A pair of pairings. What creations can we coallesce from those couplings? 🙂

            6. The plus and the minus side of the universe come out of the first creation that was the second light… the negative and the positive, the pull and the push… I have seen it all how things work in the universe and here people believe there are things original but not one item belief, concept was created here. Please do not think I put down any one who think like a human.. has considerations. me to think like that and to believe in such would be I still have part of the bank therefore I would consider that item as a barrier and session I would be going.

              I have no problem, with any consideration what so ever to me they are all equal but I stand up.. and I will not tolerate when somebody want to put shit into my universe… just because they can…

              By the way part of the power I have or I am is that people cognate while they are reading my words.. The purity of the space allows others to comprehend what they read…. in the pure clear space the bank loses its power.. You might find it interesting tid-bit that because my space is totally empty… what ever comes into it I recognise what is.. what intentions it contains, what it is made up– happy, grief, confused what ever..

            7. “… how many echoes of the first pairing does it take to see the light?!!

              “It damn near makes a digital 1 and 0 look like an erotic pairing.

              “…What creations can we coalesce from those couplings? 🙂

              I could never come up with the great lines you do! So I’ll just repeat the ubiquitous, “That’s what makes the world go round.” 🙂

            8. I have or I am more powerful than humanly y possible imagine or to believe existence of such a power. The power is not the same as in human considerations because power for humans is some energy pushing-pulling some other solid mater, causing bangs, collisions.. but the power is invisible has no mass therefore it can not be hold back by boundaries walls, distances. Power which has mass, can only go so far till something stops it.. but this power which is not gained ability but one always had it but the MEST considerations has stopped it, controlled it..and of course one has countless postulates not to have it, not to use it..given it up, given it away. never had it etc..etc..[ few of the considerations why one do not have it] lots of stuff had to be erased before one could see and understand have reality what is and how it works, how it works because one no longer having considerations blocking it. But of course the interesting part is to find out and see how it penetrates the bank others have and how it works in the Universe. But one have to keep it in mind that when one has the power or one becomes the power by than one has erased all evil overts, harmful considerations, all bad stuff had to go first because evil intentions, overts are the greatest barriers which are holding one back and the power is blocked, in fact none existent.. force replaces it. and that is not the true power…. force has limitations.

            9. Thanks Eliz! I think I understand in the sense that an idea can’t be stopped by physical barriers because, not being MEST, it can penetrate through MEST. And also, the closer a Being is to Static, because of less and less bank, the more potential power it has. Would you agree with those viewpoints?

            10. Marildi.. “When we talked on the phone today, you were saying that it was TWO that met and caused the explosion that created the light and that reminded me of 2ndxmrs comment in this thread about yin and yang coming together and creating the big bang. “” Marildi when I write I see thing easier, new revelations come up.. and i was seeing those particles how they moved and exploded. Some other time if any one interested to know HOW THE SOLIDITY HAS COME ABOUT… well I have the knowledge.

              On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:09 PM, elizabeth hamre wrote:

              > I have or I am more powerful than humanly y possible imagine or to > believe existence of such a power. > The power is not the same as in human considerations because power for > humans is some energy pushing-pulling some other solid mater, causing > bangs, collisions.. but the power is invisible has no mass therefore > it can not be hold back by boundaries walls, distances. > Power which has mass, can only go so far till something stops it.. > but this power which is not gained ability but one always had it but the > MEST considerations has stopped it, controlled it..and of course one has > countless postulates not to have it, not to use it..given it up, given it > away. never had it etc..etc..[ few of the considerations why one do not > have it] lots of stuff had to be erased before one could see and > understand have reality what is and how it works, how it works because > one no longer having considerations blocking it. > But of course the interesting part is to find out and see how it > penetrates the bank others have and how it works in the Universe. > But one have to keep it in mind that when one has the power or one > becomes the power by than one has erased all evil overts, harmful > considerations, all bad stuff had to go first because evil intentions, > overts are the greatest barriers which are holding one back and the power > is blocked, in fact none existent.. force replaces it. and that is not the > true power…. force has limitations. > >

            11. As regards “HOW THE SOLIDITY CAME ABOUT”, I’m ready whenever you are. 🙂

            12. By the way my dear.. the EGO bit, being this or that important, bigger or smaller than others just goes. vaporizes on the way that includes personalities, beingness -ess, and the need the desire to be something or somebody.. and of course the more of those things fall away freer one becomes and one sure don’t miss being somebody…

              On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:33 PM, elizabeth hamre wrote:

              > Marildi.. “When we talked on the phone today, you were saying that it was > TWO that met and caused the explosion that created the light and that > reminded me of 2ndxmrs comment in this thread about yin and yang coming > together and creating the big bang. “” > Marildi when I write I see thing easier, new revelations come up.. and > i was seeing those particles how they moved and exploded. > Some other time if any one interested to know HOW THE SOLIDITY HAS COME > ABOUT… well I have the knowledge. > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:09 PM, elizabeth hamre endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I have or I am more powerful than humanly y possible imagine or to >> believe existence of such a power. >> The power is not the same as in human considerations because power for >> humans is some energy pushing-pulling some other solid mater, causing >> bangs, collisions.. but the power is invisible has no mass therefore >> it can not be hold back by boundaries walls, distances. >> Power which has mass, can only go so far till something stops it.. >> but this power which is not gained ability but one always had it but the >> MEST considerations has stopped it, controlled it..and of course one has >> countless postulates not to have it, not to use it..given it up, given it >> away. never had it etc..etc..[ few of the considerations why one do not >> have it] lots of stuff had to be erased before one could see and >> understand have reality what is and how it works, how it works because >> one no longer having considerations blocking it. >> But of course the interesting part is to find out and see how it >> penetrates the bank others have and how it works in the Universe. >> But one have to keep it in mind that when one has the power or one >> becomes the power by than one has erased all evil overts, harmful >> considerations, all bad stuff had to go first because evil intentions, >> overts are the greatest barriers which are holding one back and the power >> is blocked, in fact none existent.. force replaces it. and that is not the >> true power…. force has limitations. >> >>

            13. Elizabeth
              The “power” you are writing about is the “power” of the Higgs field.
              Your auditing background tells you that “lots of stuff have to be erased” before one has access to it, sees it how it operates, how it
              penetrates others’ banks…my reality is (which actually happened to me) that it is perfectly enough to confront mest space (“100 %). One then has no “bank” any more but will “attract” considerations, energies coming from others into this “field”….the field has the ability to
              dissolve them (they kind of evaporate, layer by layer)….so change then happens by one’s “willingness, acceptance and full ability” to operate as the “field” between the “spiritual universe” and MEST. It is
              not a special “power”, anyone can have access to it…not necessarily
              through auditing…as the examples of living “realized” beings show….
              If someone wants auditing, it’s perfect…free choice and may have to
              do with the being’s “make-up”, “spiritual maturity(earlier realizations)”…I am writing about it to “get time and effort” out of the picture….

            14. Very intriguing, Marianne! Thanks for posting your reality too. And I think you are right that some will have access to the kind of path you followed (the ones who have the necessary spiritual level) and others, probably in much greater numbers, will be successful on an auditing path.

              (But I’ll have to say good night for now.)

            15. I know My dear that we talked about it and I dont have doubt of your attained reality but we also talked about KEYED OUT state too. Eraser happens and the item are permanently as-ised. key-ed out items will come back and they will hit the person hard. I have not studied science in this life so I have no idea who is Higgs, and I am not talking any visible power, no particles, do not have location, unless MR Higgs had sessions and recalled what was before the first light was born in the universe o he had hypnotherapy he would no about the power I am talking about… And Marianne, I have written that every one have that power.. they do not know about it.

            16. 2ndxmr
              I confirm what Elizabeth is writing about the “light, Yin Yang etc.” all of it, as I happened to have “seen” it too…Elizabeth will say that I read about it (I don’t care that she thinks so) as she thinks that one can have access to it by erasing considerations…that’s HER experience,
              …and it puts “time and tecnique” into the picture once again…
              my experience is that we as beings are so powerful and so able that
              if we honestly, sincerely and wholeheartedly ask a question with enough power, then the answer will appear (sometimes instantly, in other cases with a little com lag)….
              My reality is: one “looks around” oneself and asks the question: What
              do I really want? Truth? Better life? Relationship? Love? Job? etc. One then “stays” with it continuosly…life from then on will “please” you with “situations, people, activities etc.” to get closer to and finally
              realize and embody the “goal of your quest”. There is no need to “repeat, put into words” the goal of your “quest” once it’s stably there in your whole beingness…you just stay aware of what is “happening, coming into your space”….no labelling…just being aware and respond/act accordingly….so, back to the “light” incident….there was a situation in my life a couple of months ago…I asked the question: What’s the source of it? I got the “answer” instantly….that was the
              “light…two lights…” incident. It seems that that very simple question
              “What’s the source of it?” is perfectly enough (in my case, in my reality). The attention of the being then penetrates all remaining considerations, energies like laser..and then there it is…then you let it go, do not explain it with the mind…as I find it, knowledge, truth is there and there are several (simple!) “ways” to “get access” to it…auditing is one..and it’s effective and beautiful…but there are others too…until, as “our realized ones” say, the concept of the Seeker is gone….
              I agree with Geir’s “cherry picking” concept. Do you still hold it Geir?

            17. Finishing the above post, it has just dawned on me what I have been doing here and the why. One can get stuck in a “path”, in this case the “Bridge”. It happened to me many times in life (sport, linguistics etc.) that when I got stuck somewhere, the “unstucking” happened unexpectedly, in a very different life situation (the effect of different environment). Me, putting here different “people” with different “approaches” about the “truth of our being/native state” can put scientology into its proper light, that is it can help one see where and how one is with it now….and then can decide if one wants to go on auditing or not….in the “space of truth” one can see the “cherries”….I truely wish for some of you to happen so…as Elizabeth says, to go into
              session and get “experience” first hand….if you decide that. You may ask why I am not doing that…well, I put it here (a little reluctantly but here it goes…..I confronted my “film”…that it happened can be ckecked by those in scio if interested…but I don’t think they are…me neither…it was fun to see when it happened but that was it….wish any of you the same)….this is my present reality….
              As you say Marildi in your last post as an answer to me, for “many of you” it is auditing….yes…go into session on the auditing path if you
              feel so….whatever….first hand experience is the real fun…the way I see it now, we live in the “time” of change with huge pressure to change as human beings…scio and the realized beings are right in my present reality too…a kind of shift is happening…wrote about it earlier, don’t ask for more details now…will do that….but it’s about what one is experiences first hand and how one lives on with that
              “knowledge/perception”….

            18. Marianne: “As you say Marildi in your last post as an answer to me, for “many of you” it is auditing”.

              To clarify that, I tend to think that there are more individuals who will be CAPABLE of following the Scientology path and achieve higher awareness than there are individuals who can simply read or listen to general “explanations” or “descriptions” of how to do so. And the reason I feel this is the case is because to be able follow the Scientology route doesn’t take the higher starting level of awareness that other paths seem to require.

            19. p.s. Marianne, I should add that the reason most paths to enlightenment (the ones with little or no “tech”) are slow and difficult to follow is the same problem you have talked about too – which is that it’s a very difficult subject to put into words.

            20. Elizabeth
              Don’t bother about that “keyed out” concept…that’s Ron’s description for a “state”….concept….as well as will “hit” me….if you are right in one thing (that you didn’t mention but if you did it would fit me now) that I started not to particularly care that is a kind of true patience and silence started “happening”….may change, I don’t know…thanks for your com.

          1. EH: Before the universe, there was no MEST – no Matter, Energy, Space or Time. But there was particles? In space? Moving… in time?

            1. Read again, Vin….she starts….before the begining there was just awareness…the particle(s) appeared later….”my experience” too…pure potential..then “looking back” as being awareness…then the particle(s)….one needs to get it as experience as words fail to describe it. Also, that light-collision part is that explains sex, body structure, Kundalini, creativity…..also that “light” “lightening” can be seen at a theta level in the eyes of people…also in nature with a “proper view” of it…..the second dynamics, that is….then the “softer”
              theta lines that happen/come into being on the third dynamics on which these “light” particles can “travel”. I didn’t go up the Bridge and don’t kow how OT-s see it..would like to know that but they don’t communicate about it…though in “other practices” they do…not because it’s “important” but why hide anything which can be experienced?

            2. Marianne, what is the beginning of awareness? There is no awareness other than that of Matter, Energy, Space and Time.

              Sent from my iPhone

            3. Vin, “awareness” itself is not contained in the physical universe. A camera “perceives” visual images and even records them, but it isn’t “aware” of those perceptions or recordings.

            4. I can’t conceive of any “steps” to awareness. But a camera doesn’t “know” anything or “understand” anything. It’s all a matter of physical universe energies impinged on other physical universe energies. And only when a being looks at the photos is there any AWARENESS or KNOWINGNES or MEANING attached to them.

              No “steo

            5. MT: “I didn’t go up the Bridge and don’t kow how OT-s see it..would like to know that but they don’t communicate about it”

              It tends to feel that way and it would be nice to hear if it is just reality difference or a difficulty in expressing the reality. Elizabeth indicates her reality is different and that is fine. I’m beginning to wonder if we generally don’t perceive things differently at the theta level. Some of the things you (MT) have mentioned are remarkably similar to what I’ve experienced or cognited on and some are beyond what I’ve experienced. If we indeed experience from different viewpoints as theta then it is likely our descriptions, even of common events, will be different. The biggest problem is not to become invalidated by the way someone else views things but simply accept it as part of the process we are moving through. And by inval I mean self inval as well as external inval.

              I see the current OT levels largely as pre-OT levels: cleaning up and preparing the person for the full development of OT. Along the way there are undoubtably release points which open up an OT ability for some duration, short or long. It probably requires drilling of abilities to make them permanent. I’ve heard nothing to indicate that any such drilling was done on the church pre-OT bridge.

            6. You can ask me any question about any so called level, I will give you the answer how I see it. anything at all.. Few OT’s are willing to talk about their experiences. My sister Ava.. even to me she never ever mention anything related.

            7. Thank you, Elizabeth. I do have some questions but this thread is getting a little long and I’m not sure of the general interest in my interest: I don’t really want to bore anyone with expansive communication.

              I would appreciate it if you would establish an email line with me at 2ndxmr at hushmail dotcom. Marianne, I’d invite you on that line also and anyone else interested in discussing and developing ability.

            8. 2ndxmr, I actually found the experiences of MT and E as regards creation to be amazingly similar and, in fact, if there were any differences at all it was probably in the way each expressed themselves. The difference in their realilties seem to only have to do with how they each achieved them and the considerations thereof.

            9. @Geir
              Marianne said, “I didn’t go up the Bridge and don’t know how OTs see it..would like to know that but they don’t communicate about it…though in ‘other practices’ they do…not because it’s ‘important’ but why hide anything which can be experienced?”

              So Geir, can we ask you to answer this question? Not that you have never communicated about things related to what Marianne is talking about, but it seems there hasn’t been too much said by you and not very often.

            10. Also, I’ll be hard on it for the sake of those who like “truth”. Way back,
              about 15 years ago my first profound “spiritual” experience with an enlightened being, while doing “chakra breathing” that is going on all over them and “getting out” through the crown chakra was seeing the “Translucent Indigo Darkness” (to use Elizabeth’s phrase for it). What “leaves” then through the chakra is not a being, not even an awareness unit..there is no sense of ” I “…just “perceiving”….and a “sensingness” ….”not physical sounds” too….sorry, can’t be put into words….so she is right in her “description”….for me it was a couple of
              seconds experience then and that was it….later, when I asked that question “What’s the source of it” (that is the source of a present time situation) I got that incident of that “lights” appearing, colliding etc. I don’t see it clearly, but my take is that there are different “layers” of “non-mest!!!!” “spaces” that “collided”…awareness, whatever name, kind of multi-layered itself, then they “collided” out of which “light” particles “appeared”…they then collided too…that’s what I see at present….as far as Mest is concerned…
              also, there seem to be different “levels”/”types” of “universes/existential levels” with different “beingnesses”…..perhaps Elizabeth knows
              more about it….I am a little lazy now and not particularly interested
              in them…but will be, knowing myself….also….as you know from auditing, certainty is based on first-hand experience…..for the time being my most profound experience is that nothing really exists….it is the display of potential “instant-by-instant”….and “we” are all THAT. No label for it….it’s a kind of “breating out and breathing in” (whatever experience/universes) of THAT.

            11. Marianne thank you for sharing your experience… Key-out state is beautiful and can happen any time to any one also it can disappear the same way… close up.. With keyed out state: the why’s what is happening how it have happened one gains very little explanation.. and eraser, as-ising one gains knowledge.. total understanding..

            12. Marianne, you say, “there is no sense of ‘ I ’…just ‘perceiving’….and a ‘sensingness’”.

              My question to you is this: If there is a sense of “perceiving” or a “sensingness”, doesn’t that infer that someone or something is doing the perceiving or sensing? That particular someone or something is what I would call “the awareness unit”, or I could word it as “a being’s awareness of awareness”. I mean to say that it seems to me it is YOU (or “I”) doing the perceiving and sensing.

            13. Marildi: “My question to you is this: If there is a sense of “perceiving” or a “sensingness”, doesn’t that infer that someone or something is doing the perceiving or sensing?”

              I’ll answer on this one, too.

              The best description I can give of that is being fully exterior in the between-lives duration. (I say duration as opposed to “area” as I’m not talking about “reporting in”, only leaving one body and later taking on the next.) In that duration there was only perception, not identification as an “I”. I was able to freely locate in 3-space by decision. Recall provides a perception of motion as there was intention to shorten distance, which gave the equivalent of motion. There were no words only intention and thought/postulate. The degree of perception was practically but not completely spherical. Perception distance by “sight” exceeded perception of aware volume. There was a degree of ability to compute but it was more of a realized understanding of what was being viewed than any equivalent of brain type thought.

              The main point, though, is that there was knowingness but not identity.

            14. 2ndxmr, thanks much for that. This is one of those topics that is very difficult to express but let me add a bit more to my idea. To me, “identity” has to do with valences, acquired beingnesses, considerations, and one’s time track. When all of those are “stripped away”, even temporarily, it seems to me there is yet an awareness of being aware and an ability to perceive and intend and to postulate, and that is the basic being – an individual rather than a melding with all others or a recognition of being One with all “other”.

            15. @Marildi

              In any between-lives duration that I’ve contacted there is no sense of valences or accompaniment (such as BT’s). There was only perception.

              My recall is that identity turns on at the time the new body is fully assumed (the perception volume of the awareness unit no longer exceeds the body volume). What that implies to me is that at least one amnesia trigger mechanism is the full assumption point where the awareness unit is triggered to identify with the body. That is likely the beginning key-in point for all valences that were keyed-out during the between-lives duration.

              Valences would then key-in based on restimulations received by the body.

            16. My dear 2x, this is extremely interesting knowledge you are sharing and I’m very glad you are! Please do as much as you are willing and able to do. However, I just want to know this – do your experiences seem to you to be in conflict with what I have been trying to say?

              Really, all I am saying is that for me there is an abiding awareness of myself as a being – which is something apart from what has been added to that basic beingness all along the track, or what gets triggered by assuming a body. In simple words, I do not “get” that there are no individuals, no individual beings; I don’t see that we are all one.

            17. Mar: “Really, all I am saying is that for me there is an abiding awareness of myself as a being…”

              I personally recall no moments of “Oh! I’m really a being!” on losing a body. Maybe somewhere, sometime, but not in recalled exteriorizations. No reason that it couldn’t happen.

              My opinion would be that, to a degree, that particular consideration would indicate introspection. It could be simply realization but it could also be introspection.

              I don’t recall introspection, only perception (meaning attention was fully externalized, not internalized in any measure), intention and thought/postulate. Another thing would be lack of consideration on length of “duration” , i.e. no consideration that a new body must be picked up immediately. Choice entered in.

            18. 2x, bear with me a little longer. Either we don’t see eye to eye on this, or simply aren’t duplicating one another and its just a semantics problem:

              You said, “I personally recall no moments of ‘Oh! I’m really a being!’ on losing a body.’ Maybe somewhere, sometime, but not in recalled exteriorizations.”

              Nor am I saying anything like that suddenly occurring to me, on losing a body or otherwise. It’s just a kind of knowingness to the effect that I exist as an aware entity in my own right, apart from others.

              In a paragraph in your post above you started off with the word “I”:

              “I was able to freely locate in 3-space by decision. …there was intention…and thought/postulate…a degree of ability to compute…more of a realized understanding…knowingness but not identity.”

              Seems to me there must have been a somethingness (or a “nothingness” in physical universe terms) that did the freely locating, had intention and thoughts, ability to compute, understanding and knowingness. And I can only conceive of these things as existing in relation to …a being, a beingness, an actuality – whatever you want to call it. There is an awareness entity of some sort which is knows about and is aware of having all those abilities and awarenesses. Some would say that entity is the Oneness of us all. My sense of it is that I (and others) exist as myself (and themselves) in some enduring sense.

              I don’t think there was anything in the experiences you described having that would conflict with what I’m saying (in fact they align perfectly) and thus your saying them made me think I’m possibly not getting across what I’m trying to. I certainly don’t mind if you have a different viewpoint, but you better not (joke :)).

            19. @Mar

              The “I” in “I was able to locate…” was a slip of person but language does not allow for the person in a non-identifying entity. The awareness unit is not an I, you, he/she, we/they, so unless you can come up with a person that works, “I” as an understood non-identifying AU (awareness unit) is as appropriate as anything else.

              As far as a connection to a Oneness – which I have formerly related to as a connection to dimension zero (which dimension exists and may or may not also be the dimension of a being or group of beings referred to as Creator), there was no “return to the Oneness” or connection to the Oneness in my recall.

              Again, no reason that couldn’t occur on an individual basis by choice or programmed command (implant order, etc.) but that is not my recall.

              Mar:”Seems to me there must have been a somethingness (or a “nothingness” in physical universe terms) that did the freely locating, had intention and thoughts, ability to compute, understanding and knowingness. ”

              Yes, the somethingness could be seen by an external viewpoint as having a beingness (external viewpoint including reflective recall), but the beingness, at the time, was not thinking, calculating, efforting or emoting as a body-linked beingness tends to do.

            20. 2x: “I” as an understood non-identifying AU (awareness unit) is as appropriate as anything else.”

              Yes, of course. I wasn’t intending to make an issue of your use of the word “I”, just meant to say that it seemed to indicate there was an entity involved – an awareness unit. And I did get that the entity does not identify itself with anything other than, you could possibly say, “its ultimate self existing as an awareness entity”. That’s what I meant when I said no valences or chosen beingnesses, no considerations, no learned knowledge of any kind – i.e. anything at all coming from the time track.

              You also said, “…there was no ‘return to the Oneness’ or connection to the Oneness in my recall…Again, no reason that couldn’t occur on an individual basis by choice…”

              Okay, the “by choice” part makes sense in that a being could postulate whatever. Of course, that to me implies there would be no such return or re-connection unless postulated, and no such Oneness being there all along either.

              And you summed it up for me with this: “Yes, the somethingness could be seen by an external viewpoint as having a beingness (external viewpoint including reflective recall), but the beingness, at the time, was not thinking, calculating, efforting or emoting as a body-linked beingness tends to do.”

              Actually, I think I got even from your first post what you were saying about the beingness at the time of full exteriorization differing from a body-linked beingness in all those ways you listed. I just wanted to know if you did indeed consider there to be “a beingness”, which I had described as the basic beingness stripped of all previously acquired “identities” or “identifications”. In other words, simply the beingness of a specific, individual, unique awareness of awareness unit. Would that last be taking it too far in your estimation?

            21. Mar:”In other words, simply the beingness of a specific, individual, unique awareness of awareness unit.”

              Yes, that looks accurate. It would be inaccurate to assume that that was the only way a being would manifest exterior to the body. That is simply the manner I have recall of.

            22. 2ndxmr: “It would be inaccurate to assume that that was the only way a being would manifest exterior to the body. That is simply the manner I have recall of.”

              No-no, I didn’t mean to make any comparisons with your experience to that of what others might experience. In fact, I tend to think the experiences and abilities would be quite comparable with others if the “stripping of identity factors” were comparable. No, my point about awareness units being “unique” was in the sense of their being entirely distinct individuals. (But that’s another interesting question I have wondered about – i.e. when it gets down to “basic personality” with no added layers of anything, what kinds of differences might there be…?)

              Anyway, I get that you do agree with what I am saying about beings being distinct from one another. And I was so happy today when Elizabeth told me that from my post she had a cog on it herself. So this is now a double win. 🙂

            23. See things and to write about them is not easy. The concepts come much later…
              No there were no particles at first and I have no idea how long the “earlier state existed”.. that indigo space, I call it space because I have no idea how to describe it any other way… and I said awarness because again I have no other word for it.
              Where did you get the idea there was time? there is no such a thing, never existed and never will,

            24. I am confused here. You say:

              “I have no idea how long the “earlier state existed””

              Then you say:

              “Where did you get the idea there was time?”

              From you, I guess.

            25. Marildi, 2ndxmr
              Marildi…”doesn’t that infer that someone or something is doing the perceiving”
              Thanks for this! Answer: there is perceiving without the sense of the “doer” (=ego=an I in action). Also, “awareness” has the “ability” of “creating/shifting” itself into a character without identifying with it.
              2ndxmr
              “…there was knowingness but not identity”. Yes!
              “dimension zero” Yes!
              I enjoyed what you have been writing about! So nice to share “reality”
              with you! I am not on any other blog/places. I feel “something” is really
              coming out of our communications and being here for each “our-selves”!

            26. Wow! What a cat fight! Doesn’t seem to be enlightened at all. Maybe there is an illusion of enlightenment.

              .
              .

            27. put your nose back where it belongs : an your face.
              what you read was not a fight, far from it: simply expressing different realities..it is your reality: when you observe two persons having different reality and expressing that that they are figthing..

            28. Ha ha!

              I call it touchy, sensitive and overly emotional! Accept it.

              Denial and justifications are not-is-nesses.

              My reality is to see things as they are, so one may spot the inconsistencies.

              .

            29. V…. Obviously you don’t have a inbuilt alarm system because you do not hear the bugle which is sounding calling you :“RETREAT-RETREAT!!’’ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

              I am waiting for Geir’s answer and read the post; GEIR since this is your blog I need to ask if the opportunity arises again would you give me your permission to lit into Vinay? By now you know I am not a gentleman and definitely not a lady… and because of that I don’t fallow rules or regulations. And a good zesty invigorating fight have to have personality, character and that only can happen if the rules are not present.. hitting under the belt, kidney punches, biting the nose and definitely scratching should be included and ball kicking would be the highlight of the fight.. up to you!!

            30. This idea of “zesty invigorating fight” is nothing more than a justification.

              Rail and rant as much as you want. I’ll keep my comments short.

              .
              .

            31. Elizabeth, I have really learned a lot from you and Marianne both. And I agree with you about some things, and with her about other things. There was a time when I thought that Scientology was the only real way that a person could become enlightened, or find truth, or however you want to put it. I don’t feel that way anymore. I’ve observed people like Marianne who show in their beingness and knowingness that they have truly made wonderful gains on some other path.

              Don’t get me wrong – I still believe that Scientology is utterly incredible, incomparable, and probably the best path for most people. A good session with a good auditor, or a good solo session, can be an absolutely exalting experience, even miraculous.

              Nevertheless, I understand exactly what Marianne means when she says she doesn’t NEED auditing. I have said the same thing, just not to you or others who have your own firm consideration of why I would feel that way – which is a whole different reality from mine.

              Mind you, if the circumstances were right and I had the opportunity to continue up to the top of the Bridge (in the Independent field, of course) I wouldn’t hesitate for a split second to do so. Irrespective of that, I am doing well in life and making progress that I’m happy with, just by doing what I’m doing on the “path” I’m on. I’ve said before, life itself is a process. And I will add that it is one that auditing and Scn study has prepared me for, IMO.

              Just yesterday, I had several big wins that involved you. One was that you gave me a knowingness about how the universe began. That’s a huge one! Another big one was that I sorted out for myself the question of whether or not we as thetans are distinctly individual spiritual beings or are simply part of a Oneness. Even you, so far above me in many ways on the subject of spirituality, were inspired by the post I wrote about that and you phoned me immediately after you read it to say that you had a great cog on it. That in itself was a win for me because it demonstrated in a big way that all of us, no matter how much auditing we have or haven’t had, can have knowingness and get cogs and give cogs to one another through the simple means of communication.

              One other win was when you described to me what had happened to you recently after a huge cog you had in auditing, and I asked you if you thought you had lost your anchor points. From your response, I got that you had not thought of it in that way until I said it, and I was pleased that it indicated to you. This is the type of win I have that comes from my study and understanding of Scientology principles – a source of frequent wins, actually.

              So what I’m getting at is that I think it’s great that we are all free to express our viewpoints – and that we do so. Instead of quoting LRH like I usually do (LOL), this time I’ll quote one of our own discussion participants. Here is the inspiring way 2ndxmr put it:

              “While I agree it’s easy to put too much value on one’s own viewpoint, or the viewpoint of some OL (opinion leader) or some crusade, we yet need a reference point for our goals and actions. That, in fact, comes down to a viewpoint. So while we can occupy a viewpoint, it is incumbent on us to consider the existence of alternate, equal viewpoints.”

              What I get from that is that we do still live in the physical universe, which means we have goals and actions that give us no choice but to take into account “alternate, equal viewpoints”. And the way he topped off this point is worth repeating:

              “This was summed up in a lesson learned by Grasshopper in the TV series “Kung Fu”: to the cat, the rat is evil; to the rat, the cat is evil.”

              That sounds to me like something Elizabeth would say. 🙂

            32. M.. old friend from way back… what you have writen moved me.. but hell I cant say that any more because only objects can be moved..
              Love you.. Much..
              But Now I am in traning… sarpening my wits, the Lord of the Manor OK’d the fight.. The ring is being set up and I am writing who is going to be in which corner.. HEHEHE..

            33. Well E, if it’s done in the mood of humor you seem to be in, it could be fun. But don’t forget, Geir does have rules about a certain amount of politeness. He even kept Vinnie from posting for quite a while until he promised to be polite. So keep that in mind!

  32. Geir: “Well – any agent of democracy can be changed – by the will of the people. KSW cannot. Therein lies a difference, methinks.”

    As a matter of fact, the Scientology “Constitution” (basic policy) guarantees the right of “the people” to choose or not choose to rotely follow KSW and to abide by the spirit of the law rather than the letter. In fact, a free and Independent Scientology group has even the right to abolish/cancel KSW policy altogether, should they so desire. These rights are guaranteed by policy, including HCO PL “The Structure of Organization, What is Policy” 13 Mar 65 Issue III:

    “Following policy is a matter of grasping situations and knowing policy well enough to apply the right policy to the right situation…

    “…Periodic sweep-outs of antiquated and didactic laws (rather than general concepts and subpurposes) must be undertaken by a being, organization, group or race or species. However, such an action must be carefully done, selecting only those laws or rules which came into being because of pressure groups or infrequent enemies or which were derived from no experience.”

    That last part, about laws or rules “derived from no experience”, would allow for taking into account the experience that has accumulated since any given policy was written.

    Could you go along with this type of Scientology policy application?

    1. Great riposte but,…

      Can following a policy that can cancel an uncancellable policy really make enough room between the rock and the hard place to create a consensus?

      It would be nice if it did but all I can smell is the stench of stasis. If the schism shows anything it is that the middle ground is a very narrow path, an arete, not without its own forks but always with a daunting slope on either side. I wouldn’t want to walk that path without KSW as trainer but I can see its limitations as a guide: KSW dictates a stop at the plateau (OT8) but the peak is still in the distance.

      The near perfect Catch-22: damned if you do, probably damned if you don’t.

      About the only saving grace I can see is that fundamentalist Indies can practically guarantee a path up through NOTs. At that point the strict KSW’er will life-cycle until deciding to leave the nest. Hopefully there will be some other birds soaring to give the fledglings a reason to test the air.

      1. The saving grace of it all is if you don’t try to “make a datum stand where a being should be” (HCO PL “OT Orgs”). And that gets us back to INTENTION. The mechanical nature of policy has to have intention as the senior factor. Is that too idealistic to be workable? I mean, that is the essence of Scientology, isn’t it? But I think Valkov and Indie-saurus-rex articulated the balance beautifully in those two posts re-posted above. Did you read them? What did you think about those viewpoints?

        As for OT 8 being the top plateau, I’m far enough to the left in the liberal camp that I have no problem with seeing continued research as fitting into the context of core Scientology, and even policy.

        1. Marildi: “But I think Valkov and Indie-saurus-rex articulated the balance beautifully in those two posts re-posted above. Did you read them? What did you think about those viewpoints?”

          I think we walk the arete. You don’t do that without learning well a number of skills.

          1. “I think we walk the arete. You don’t do that without learning well a number of skills.”

            Another one of your pithy pothts, eh? 🙂

            I do get what you are saying. What I’m hoping for and postulating is that there are enough people out in the Indie field who do have the needed skills as well as having the necessary intention. Those are the ones who will train and audit others who will also succeed and expand in a “free market”. Again, I might just be too idealistic, but time will tell in any case. The proof will be in the pudding, puddin’. 🙂

            Btw, thanks for the relaxing bedtime video and calming background music to match. 🙂 (Awesome special effects to make your point though.)

          2. 2ndxmr if you care to hear what I seen how the SOLID is formed happy to tell you but only with talk-com… I talked to Marildi and she said you would be interested to know. she said I talk physics, as I said I never studied the subject.
            I have seen how those tiny things become solid and what happens when the solid dissolve and returns to the original form the tiny thing.

            1. I’m interested in both – how the tiny things become solid and how the solid dissolves and returns to the original form of the tiny thing.

              On the second part, solid returning to the tiny thing, are you talking about as-isness…?

            2. MARILDI I HAVE MY BOXING GLOVES AN AND I JUST SHARPENED MY WITS AND MY TEET and you want me to write about tiny lights and as-ising when I am building a pit to roast Vinay..???

            3. LOL! 😀

              Okay, but while the coals in the pit are getting hot, your mental faculties could be sharpened even more by focusing on some of the secrets of the universe.

            4. m… To dance around the smoldering fire while ones enemy is being roasted and while one dances with that dance one thanks the gods for the juicy morsel roating .. you can have a crackling skin if you behave.. the itsy bitsy’s will not go way.. we will have them later for desert … meanwhile we need more wood, dry wood so get going..
              PS; a spiritual being is a free being. can be and can do anything anytime..

      1. Lord of the Manor I thank you.. and I am delighted that you are falling in with the spirit of the stimulating game of wits

        The challenged is slightly bolding, slightly over weight, slightly over confident gentlemen who loves to point out the wrong in others to make himself look more important. This most learned gentlemen is Cambridge U.. trained and his whole house wallpapered with his collected diplomas… in other word he is a smart ass.

        And this corner we have the challenger who is sick and tired taking pot shot from the smart ass gentleman and the challenger’s qualifications: slightly worn out skinny old thing the wind could blow her over and she hold no diplomas but she is no lady.. and that is a huge Plus.
        What going for her that in one of her past life’s she was Attila the Hun.. The real thing.. also was once a cannibal that is a huge + and have total recall of the track … woof.. and that gives her great advantage over the smart ass gentlemen because she knows all the tricks of the trade and that makes her a dirty fighter.

        So Ladies and Gentleman your bets will be taken by Geir as you enter the stadium.. Bring your own popcorn.

        1. Very creative, E. 🙂 I guess I don’t need to worry any more about this turning into a blood sport like dog fighting or a cock fighting. Whew!

            1. M.. in the ”wit” combat one aimes deadly blows to the ”ego”in order to weaken it .
              In such a combat the loser is who has the bigger ego because the aiming remarks do lot of stimulation and that weakens the stance, causes confusion etc… actually it is a true blood sport and not meant for the faint hearted:who consider them self gentlemen and ladies.

            2. LOLOLOLOL hehehe. he dont have on ego? than I am in deep trouble because we are not even.. you see I just went out and bought 10 pounds and I really dont want to waste it.. 🙂

            3. I believe he will pretend to be above this. Which is a good thing. Because a way to enlightenment is to pretend one has it until one does.

            4. LOL.. good one.. go for it.. I been looking for it for years and looked under over inside and outside of the universe and cant find that bloody thing…when you find it please write it up so I can read it. and that way it can be mine even if it will be only a second hand enlightenment, i will treasure it for ever.. 🙂

            5. You know, I been thinking I thought I new what that was,, but in fact I havent got a clue.. There is no such a thing..not where I am at..
              I am off to bed .. you been a good sport by accepting my nuty side to ..and have a lovely day!

  33. Isene
    You asked Elizabeth…so I am speaking here. As I said, for me the simple question ” What’s the source of it?” works…you may ask that too…or whatever question you used and worked for you on the Bridge. The “being” “Life” knows…has access to it all…you know it too…go ahead and get “answers” and we can “compare” what we get….could be real fun…more…building new “reality” with our ability…me waiting for Elizabeth’s answer too…good question
    from you….

        1. Thank for letting me know.. some odd reason the computer dont receive all the posting. By the way my trip was canceled. the people I was going to visit going to Australia, they had a job offer from the government.

  34. Geir, my problem is that I have not watched the words as I was writing and I have not realized because of that I will cause confusion and I can see if when reading the reader can have very different reality.
    ” “I have no idea how long the “earlier state existed””
    That sentence do indicates existence of time.. you are right .. but I was not aware of time since outside of indigo whatever there was nothing or moving but please help me out and give me a different concept where one describes on event where nothing has happened.
    Even if I write the simple ”IS” that too indicates something. If I say NOW, that too indicates time. If the word is used exist, than we talk of particles..
    How one interprets event when no description, no language, no communication and sound existed because I only know as now in my recall that I have heard sound the tiny things make..
    But then I did not know there was such a thing as sound. So I could not say it than I did not have thought, concepts of any kind but yes in MY RECALL NOW I can describe that event that it contained sound and I can only describe the even in the language of I speak now..
    And I am very aware that is not the best.. and it is not getting any better..

    1. I read your latest post on your blog about indigo. Never mind the words, they always fail! Instead, how about an acknowledgment in the form of a lovely video symbolizing indigo through song and image:

      How very wonderful Elizabeth!

      I know indigo too.

      1. Maria Sorry I though the above comment was from MT. I am so delighted to receive your communication. I have a bad hobit not reading everything through and I miss things..It seems the communication was received the ”energy” and after that there is no interest for the words… but they do count, So do forgive…
        I DO think of you aften and in fact I still hope to meet you in person. Care to tell me, when you have met Indigo or we are not talking about the sabre pussy cat? I have named him after that translucent ”space”. His fur was pure black and for a cat body his was big 16 pd and not fat. I have set up new hushmail. elizabethamre…. only one H….please write..

        1. Hi Elizabeth — I was talking about that translucent ”space” and not the pussy cat. I thought the video had some nice visual elements that kind of reminded me of it. The words in the music in the video, not so much.

          I have not been going anywhere this winter. Got snowed in! Maybe in the spring time.

          1. Of course you know the indigo space.. The music it self not mine either but I love the rest…I have a big sign hanging out here [invisible of course, but every one knows , since reading is not a ability required] “home sweet home” that is what ”space”is to me, by the way Indigo knows you..
            We only had about 2 cm snow this winter and on a sunny day crocouses open up..but we only have very few sunny days..
            I will be waithing for you and I will take you for Lunch at the Tea House in Stanly Park.

    2. After I “commanded” myself to my earliest, I wasn’t able to go “early” using “concepts” like “earlier”. However I was able to go “before” (and “before before …”) using “concepts” like “previous” (and “previous previous …”) which for me doesn’t have the strong “time” connotation. By the way, in the earliest, I perceive something like “light” and something like “sound”, but I also perceive something like “vibration”.

      1. P.S.: What I call “earliest” is “after” what I call “earliest-previouest”.

        1. Feri, Marildi asked the question if i have picked up -experienced any vibration from those tiny light particles I was going to say the same as I did to you and the cog…. hit me, the reason i did not pick up any vibration because I vibrate on the same level what ever that is..
          By the way I have ”seen” those tiny light many times by now and always when i had a cognition.. today I realized the meaning of that..

          1. Eliz.: “By the way I have ”seen” those tiny light many times by now and always when i had a cognition.. today I realized the meaning of that”.

            Elizabeth, please say more about that. For example, are the tiny lights the same as the tiny particles? And are those particles actually beings, or beings who are in their “energy”? Possibly even those TWO very first particles were beings or the beings were identifying with or being particles? Just curious if you know – maybe such “meanings” you didn’t have back then.

            1. m.. you are a bad-bad-bad person..asking question and knowing I dont like to write… yes the tiny things are the tiny lights who vibrates. Yes, being do indentify with the light particles… I believe those tiny things are the ”’souls” people talking about it..
              Just had a cog…. the ”’soul” dies when it is turned into”solid” form.. this is incradible what I see… i dont wish to write about it now…

            2. And you are a good-good-good person to answer even though it’s not easy for you. Thank you! I will give you a break and not ask (yet) about what happens when the “soul” dies. But it may again be what LRH says about that. You are proving his ideas quite a bit, you know. 🙂

            3. M.. so you think if you are ”nice” you butter me up than I will write..
              OK… The SOUL DO DIE WHEN BELIEVES THAT IT IS A BODY… a some body like I am a rich man, I am a pianist, I am a warrior.
              When the being believes it is a concept than becomes that concept and that concept is his coffin, because he belives that what he is doing is he..
              That experience he indentify with… With that he gives up the the limitless awarness and becomes the doingness. I am a doctor etc and It should be: I am doing doctoring-healing manding bodies.
              Ever Since the spirit-awarness indentified him-self with the light because experienced the light… therefore believed he was one… ever since he has continued with that bad habit and he still say what he ecperience that he is that experience.
              So the SPIRIT is not a spirit any more when he say.. I am a bus driver.. the spirit is no longer self, he is dead… but now he is the occupation, those concepts-considerations..
              Of course he never can die, but as a spiritual being he just moved into a consideration PRISON.. that consideration is his limitation cuts him off from his true abilities. Since he is a bus driver his reality, activities seldome become different.. But there is a bit more to this… nothing is just this simple..

            4. Wow, I’m realizing more how much the ability to postulate is a double-edged sword and cuts both ways. Thanks E.! And have a good night. 🙂

            5. Interesting. And we have the Christian saying: I am the light of the world and “This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine…” and the illumined ones and the shining ones and so on…

            6. dont forget girls: light on the track alway meant purity.. and the beginning of the universe was pure.. of all considerations. Pure soul…all the saints have some kind of light painted around them and light ring around the head. indicating purity. to purity-light the power was connected, being different from others. had more power.

        2. Feri I put this post here. I could not find latter hole.
          Original thinkers who have something new to say which never been said here on this Planet has been remembered because their words, their teachings and their writings are studied long after their body melted.
          These rare birds are quoted by those who want to look appear cleverer than those who do not know that philosophy, also these Birds have caused upheaval with their new ideas-thinking.
          If you look over the History there are not that many..

      2. Ferenc, that is great data you’ve just added to the knowledge of “the beginning”, including especially the perception of “vibration” and the fact that your experience corroborates both Elizabeth’s and Marianne’s.

        If I remember right, you are a student of quantum physics and I was wondering if you align your early, early track perceptions to QM. If so, could you please tell us more about that! 🙂

      3. Ferenc Thank you… I do have difficulty finding the words now more than ever.
        About 5 weeks back I had a major cognition, after that i had difficulty walking, and even more difficult to drive, writing was almost imposible, it seems i have lost as-ised connections…When I walked I have heard the sound of foot steps… but I felt nothing, no movement of the body, Taking air in was like wind moving in space where the lings are..I could not judge how much preasuure I needed for the brakes in the car and I felt and tasted nothing when i was earing.. It is not easy to function here In fact I really dont want to be here any more, I have accomplished what I wanted..
        Only a few days back finally i got some acnhors back… but not enough… Marildi called this exterior, I have different reality….

        1. Elizabeth
          ….. the real concept of Death? If yes, can that be the real “doorstep” to the fluid stream of LIFE that you may have rejected so far? And “come back” and “flow with/by/as it is” from now on? !!! Kind
          of “new life”. !!

          1. Elizabeth
            ” I have accomplished what I wanted”. Ok, did you ask Life what it
            wants to accomplish with you????
            Now I am pouring out all my “theta anger” on you! You can call me
            delusional, emotional, different reality…..I am writing it down as it is coming!
            Shifts of perceptions – so SHIFT!!!
            1. It’s ok what you write that the “soul dies” when identifies with a concept (e.g driver), also you can see Mest as dead…also you can see mest as fully alive….who/what sees that one way of another? Isn’t it
            awareness shifting itself?
            2. it’s ok that you know almost anything about mest, the universe – can be the why for your presence….is there a possibility that what you
            experience as knowledge is only “part of the picture”…that is awareness has other abilities than knowing?
            Could write more…but waiting for what you are saying to this.
            P.S. I asked you a question earlier.
            What is love? You answered…..not there. Right, I fully got it then.
            Is your answer still valid in that form?

            1. Marianne.. Pour out your reality let it flow… by all means.What life wants with me as you put it is IN MY REALITY a total idiatic remark,. and “””LIFE”” having one is a concept.. not real, it is a illusion..

              MEST IS NOT DEAD.. dead -death is a concept, a consideration a idea a assumption… so is love so is driving a bus so is being born, so is knowing or not knowing, so is I know all there is to know, so is I am full of shit,
              Love is what you consider love is, it is a a belief, a consideration, assumption. I have writen in my blog there is a post dedicated to that subject, love is””CONSIDERATION_ASSUMPTION” same hate.
              AND MARRIANNE my reality is my reality only, it is not ached in stone and what you believe when reading what I have writen is your reality that is totally yours.
              I am not writing anything to convince others that what I write it the whole truth nothing but the truth, I write what I know.. and I never ever said: I want you to believe in my belief, give up your reality and fallow my foot steps..

          2. Hold it right there sister …. REJECTED???? I HAVE REJECTED SOMETHING??? care to explain what you believe I have rejected?
            Dear Marianne it is you who have on huge MU what is auditing all about since you never had any therefore you live with MU GALORES ABOUT WHAT AUDITING DO and most of all what auditing achieves.
            Auditing-confronting IS A TOTAL EMBRACING acceptance total recognition of what is, taking it in, taking it up, fully live it, total experiencing THE CONCEPT which is confronted in session..There is no rejection when one do that.
            SO please gets some facts before you make idiatic statemants like that again.

            1. Elizabeth
              1.Much earlier in a post you said that you could sense people’s energies..anybody’s who came to your space. When we talked the first time I asked you what you sensed of me. You said “You are dancing in
              your skin. How’s that?” EMBRACE what you sense of me now.
              2. Please read over my second comment above, starting with ” I have accomplished…..”
              Both (1 and 2) if you like……

            2. Go take up a sport and punch some bags, fly a kite, go for a run, have a glass of whisky, pat a cat, make love to your husband, go beat your students,cook something.. throw ligning bolts by the way about you dancing in your skin bit… that was only in that moment it is not there any more.. you know why? not because you pisseed off because idiot you are at this moment and idiots are just that… look up the meaning. amen..

            3. Elizabeth
              Thank you! Real fun to read it ! Thank you for EMBRACING me !
              If you find any items in it for your auditing, that’s fine ! And as I am not your auditor, there is no code that would not allow me not to respond to your comment on me. You keep saying that I did not do auditing….I did. Both as a PC and an auditor. Could spot out-tech in Class 5 (up to it). Also ocassionally in Class9…also in ethics..with ARC and ethics presence….not that it matters to you…just for the record. That you are doing auditing is your reality and I add to it that
              I loved auditing…with continuous flying gains…that I stopped it is due
              to only one fact: I don’t need it….
              And I am evaluating you now….you said earlier that what you had achieved (native state) was just the start….you still have a lot ahead of you…..that’s my reality too…there is a SHIFT of consciousness happening and it is already has a changing effect on humans…mest…
              And we can finish it now….thanks for your coms so far!

            4. Elizabeth
              I’ll make it even harder on you…what you “sensed” of me is YOUR reality, doesn’t have any relevance to “me”. All the concepts in it are
              YOUR concepts…won’t go into it now why as you know it from auditing…just all of them…and once again there is the item! in it because
              of which you ! stopped communicating with me earlier…you stopped it, not me….here I have made another attempt. Failed. I’m totally fine
              with failure. There IS different from the MIND reality….you seem to have come to the end of taking the mind apart….LIFE is not a concept…LOVE is not a concept….both are “deeper” “realities” than the
              mind….(Heart that is). So here I really give up…just Stop in total, complete Affinity towards you….have been in Peace of mind and heart
              all along our coms…..

        2. Elizabeth, I think you just as-ised some of your machinery, some of your automaticities of daily living.

          1. VALKOV…..
            yes I have and I am aware of that. This is not the first time when large chunk fallen away. About 8 months back I become aware that no matter what there were no more ARCB’s, no more problems.. 14-15 years back fear was gone because values were as- ised. I do not have MEMORY, and to be without here is not easy to operate, first I thought “” old age’’ brought on the memory loss, I could no longer learn, so I audited every item imaginable having one or giving it up, what is memory.
            No one can imagine how I have explored the universe looking for answers about the memory.. Memory is a machine, retaining information, holding it is done by machinery: it is a recorder.
            I have none of that valuable machinery which is so useful here in one’s daily life.
            At one point I even lost the machine which regulates the inhale exhale bit for the body. Now that experience was unique… hehehe, sitting here and making the body inhale exhale inhale etc… counting and giving the command to self.
            Taken nearly 2 hours before the machine kicked back, but since then it is not very regular as it used to be, the main machine or some regulator must have been erased.
            I have noted the changes as the mass been as-ised.. I don’t have retained learned knowledge none, what have read studied this life all have gone blown, the only knowledge is real mine which are from cognitions and that cannot be as-ised, since it is the ‘’truth’’ not altered in any way. [ about 80 thousand cog, ] How do I know that? I have reached the stage one knows.. simple as that.
            There are days when I have difficulty talking, and writing sometimes is almost impossible.
            But of course what I know, what I see without the ‘’eyes’’ cannot be described with words.. I have gained knowledge of the universe which is not comprehendible by human understanding.. this is not a put down in any way.. Since humans are spiritual entities and please understand I am not in any way insulting.
            But long as one has reality of a human, set of thought and beliefs than the other-different reality cannot be comprehended.
            I am no longer human since those thoughts, concepts agreements have been erased in sessions and many other realities which taken their place too have been as-ised by now, the basic reality what the Universe is realized.
            I recall that someone said that the human knowledge is just a tiny bit in comparison what is available.. is fact..
            Again this is not a put down, insult… I have no reason what so ever to insult fallow beings.[ Vinay .. well I have reason for that]
            Valkov, I have done my best to convey some of the knowledge I have gained but persons having considerations thoughts concepts are barriers to them and when one believes in those than other reality will not penetrate those walls.
            But of course my reality of the universe where the Earthly roles don’t apply- exist than I am free here and my reality is received and understood. One’s power is in knowledge how pure one’s information is. What I mean by these is: pure by not being altered by ‘’time’’ use and cognitions are pure.
            I have seen in session while as- ising heavy mass how the solidity dissolves and the millions-billions of tiny light particles which become the item: the solid dark heavy condensed material which was nearly as old as the universe itself returned to their original form –state. Wondrous experience.
            Yes my friend more than one leg is out of the MEST, I know less than one leg is in the MEST.
            I had been of course diligently working to severe the connection from the body also. But the body have become totally healthy but I know I am close to drop it. Unless I would have good reason, a need to stay, by need I meant not my own since I don’t have any..
            Scientologist, or people in general don’t recognise or seldom recognise knowledge if not connected to a well-known name-fame.. so I am not in demand here, of course I have no problem or ARCB’s with that because I do understand the reasons of not being recognized. [ that to been confronted in session]
            So old friend.. I do know and I am delighted that you too realised what is that condition: Definitely not going dodo, insane, not having dementia.. and all those conditions to been addressed in session, nothing has been missed.
            Incredible adventure so far what I have experienced taking the Universe apart, dissected it atom by atom and to see the heavy mess dissolve and knowing it is just the beginning.

        1. E. is it possible the those “itsy bitsy particles” you perceived were vibrating? I have in mind that according to scientists all energy is vibrations, and all matter is actually condensed energy.

          1. M… they are light paricles, tiny light sparkles, but they dont spakle sparkle like changing the light from weaker to stronger, they are constant. as I told you on the phone i have seen them many times and my first awarness was, seeing them on the OT levels…. Just had a cog. why I have not sensed vibration. i will call you..

  35. Elizabeth
    I totally get you! Impossible to put it into words, no-one has ever been able to
    describe something which is outside-beyond the mind! Even simpler than that,
    have you ever been able to put into exact words what you experienced in a session which is of no concrete life-situation data? Me never. Fortunately, as then they can stand in their own beauty without any labelling! Also, will not influence then anybody, so there will be no expectation! (Geir – your quest of
    no label – no expectation is perfect in my view).
    So happy that the two of you started to talk about, compare realities! Can you please carry on with it?

  36. MT thank you.

    Only Geir know why he asked those question but one thing I believe it was not out of CONFUSION,

    Gear also know that RECALL OF ANY KIND is the re callers reality only [ not every one has the same reality, in fact there are many different reality exist as the number of persons who recall that incident] and also he know that recall is a reconstructed concept and the person who recalls INTERPRETS that reconstructed incident in relation to how they understanding the universe at the present time, what knowledge they have.

    1. Elizabeth
      Yes, I know all of it and now that you are writing about it I have become even more conscious of it. Thanks! Also, this “first” “incident”
      is real-fun havingness when interpreted by concepts. Nevertheless,
      I still find it “true” though I am not particularly interested in it. Didn’t mean to interfere, will be glad if you carry on talking with Geir!

      1. Marianne I have written about it because I was asked.. I refused at first because I am not interested in recall after I have understanding of it by having cognition..and there is nothing to carry on about..the communication ended..

      2. Indigo loves on adventure but he is here and waiting patiently till I drop this body.. and I am working on that diligently.. unless one is sick or hit by train, or brick on the head it is not easy to stop it working. I have not found the key yet to this hip of crap.

        On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 1:59 PM, elizabeth hamre wrote:

        > Marianne I have written about it because I was asked.. I refused at first > because I am not interested in recall after I have understanding of it by > having cognition..and there is nothing to carry on about..the > communication ended.. > >

      3. And Marianne go bag your own sabre toothed tiger and Indigo loves the beat of music.. http://youtu.be/fWDfxgngrNc or http://youtu.be/UpT6S9TGjpc we dont go for holy stuff. We love the fiery universe,

        On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 3:25 PM, elizabeth hamre wrote:

        > Indigo loves on adventure but he is here and waiting patiently till I > drop this body.. and I am working on that diligently.. unless one is sick > or hit by train, or brick on the head it is not easy to stop it working. I > have not found the key yet to this hip of crap. > > On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 1:59 PM, elizabeth hamre endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Marianne I have written about it because I was asked.. I refused at first >> because I am not interested in recall after I have understanding of it by >> having cognition..and there is nothing to carry on about..the >> communication ended.. >> >>

        1. Elizabeth
          Thank you for this boogie woogie! Love dancing and fiery stuff!
          Yesterday I just wanted to help you, though I know you don’t need it.
          Not that much as you wrote about it but me also have sensed not
          having anchors, no connections. ( for very short periods of time)
          For me it seems to have a connection to a kind of “shift”, kind of “dimension slip”…..that is if you, Elizabeth, had “gone into it” further, you may have lost all possibilities of communication with humans,even with
          Ot-s telepathically for a while…kind of very different reality level..later some new way of com. may be possible. What I am writing about is not a full experience, just a very “vague” glimpse……I wonder how you see this….glad you “came back”….I feel you still have some
          “job” here…

    1. OMG, Marianne, I should have watched this video yesterday before I tried to describe the same idea myself. Here is how Adyashanti explains what I was trying to say (roughly transcribed):

      “You ask, what am I? There’s nothing there.

      “Well, who’s noticing that there’s nothing there? So you look at that. Nothing there.

      “Who’s noticing that there’s nothing there? What notices it? There’s still nothing there.

      “Apparently it’s the nothing that’s there that notices there’s nothing there. So this nothing is not actually nothing… [it’s] a very conscious nothing because here it is looking at itself.”
      .

      Thanks for posting this! 🙂

      1. Glad you liked it! Earlier you said “there is awareness of awareness”
        as a response to Geir’s question. Yes, true, in my experience too. You said you liked me. Me too!

  37. Marildi:
    Marianne said, “I didn’t go up the Bridge and don’t know how OTs see it..would like to know that but they don’t communicate about it…though in ‘other practices’ they do…not because it’s ‘important’ but why hide anything which can be experienced?”

    So Geir, can we ask you to answer this question? Not that you have never communicated about things related to what Marianne is talking about, but it seems there hasn’t been too much said by you and not very often.

    Me: I don’t really get a clear question here… rephrase?

    1. Oh shoot, I can see why it wasn’t clear! I posted it here because there were so many other exchanges going on in that same long line. I believe her question relates to the similar way she and Elizabeth see “the beginning” of the track and she is wondering how OT’s see it. And she also wonders why OT’s don’t communicate about it, unlike “other practices” and why anything which can be experienced is hidden. I’ll just paste her whole post here:

      2013-02-03 at 16:44
      Read again, Vin….she starts….before the beginning there was just awareness…the particle(s) appeared later….”my experience” too…pure potential..then “looking back” as being awareness…then the particle(s)….one needs to get it as experience as words fail to describe it. Also, that light-collision part is that explains sex, body structure, Kundalini, creativity…..also that “light” “lightening” can be seen at a theta level in the eyes of people…also in nature with a “proper view” of it…..the second dynamics, that is….then the “softer” theta lines that happen/come into being on the third dynamics on which these “light” particles can “travel”. I didn’t go up the Bridge and don’t know how OT-s see it..would like to know that but they don’t communicate about it…though in “other practices” they do…not because it’s “important” but why hide anything which can be experienced?

      1. MT.. if one really wants to know something, than one must find the source, the answers for self otherwise reading about other persons experience is just that… reading about it for the reader is just second hand information but not the real experience.

          1. Hey guys I am not the one who backed off… What I am going to do with 10 pounds of ego? The store said no retunes, so I am thinking I will spread it on the garden, use it as manure… but I dont want to poison the soils.. so it should go into hazard waste disposol?

            1. It’s way too nuclear to put in hazardous disposal.

              Sell it on ebay in DIY kits for terrorists.

            2. 🙂 I was going to let V use it for target practice that is the reason I bought it in the first place, I should just mail if off to Florida.. he lives there… a reminder..

            3. E- Nice way to start the evening of with a genuine good laugh, thanks love.
              Yes, “hazard waste disposol” 🙂

              I’m celebrating, got my SP declare by mail, including all the paper work with A to E etc. Cheers!

            4. You are a SP… how lucky you can get.. Those paper are good for wallpapering the out house? but you dont have one of those..
              I wonder what is the idea doing such a thing… labeling people supresive. that is so idiatic… so utterly stupid, only out of ignorance one would do that.. [ they call that aberration] they actions exhibit that well.

            5. E- “so utterly stupid, only out of ignorance one would do that.. [ they call that aberration] they actions exhibit that well.”
              Soo right, got it girl, that’s one of their problems and why they are failing. Poor sad things, sending out their messages! Maybe some day they will use the auditing tech, but am not hopeful.

            6. So true Elizabeth. And yet with some shame I read my own “death sentence” and felt an awful heaviness when I got my own goldenrod 20 years ago. I still remember that feeling and so though we joke with deElizabeth, I would want her to know that if she feels a bit of sadness over this “official news” that I would understand.

            7. The Goldenrod of today is a complete joke and can be dismissed with a wave. If it brings anything it’s relief.

              The Goldenrod of 20 years ago generally would have been taken to heart and the meanness, inval and wrong indications of the crap could mess one up royally.

              Goldenrod lost its power over me in ’83 when the smart apples from the SO wiped out our highly productive tech and qual. Even when it was “read out” to us the crimes and the acceptance of the crimes by those people, and their agreement with the SP label, I never agreed and never after looked at Goldenrod with a believing eye.

              Years later, as an exec, I was occassionally threatened with declare. My response was uniformly “Do it, or shut up!”. It wasn’t done.

            8. Yes, well I understand. You were more sophisticated than I. I became a true believer by bits and once firmly strapped into harness would’ve pulled until collapse. Fortunately the rearing of my oldest daughter was of a more governing priority than my own personal career happiness and so reluctantly, I left. That would’ve been that. I probably would’ve remained connected to the COS but a bitter ex wife saw to it that I was hunted down and shot. 15 years of serious nose-to-grindstone wog life would pass before I would lift my head, look around and realize that I wasn’t really a member of COS anymore, except in my mind. Then began my re-birth.

              Now I find not only Scientology but all religion to be a massive detour on the road to understanding anything about life.

            9. Thank you Vinaire. I hope it does. Without the unmet rearing needs of my daughter, I would have languished in the Sea Org for years longer. Ultra-micromanaged, my own personal initiative had ground down and so that when I left it was with a sense of relief that I could simply plan my own day and work.

              Long term? It took 15 years of my new wog life plus a desire on the part of my oldest daughter to be able to be in contact with her mother who remained in the Sea Org to help wake me up to the fact that I needed to pull-together the broken pieces of that partitioned part of my life. I sought and received professional auditing; word clearing; and false data stripping to a very good result. I studied Scientology by rehashing what I already knew and researched for the secrets which had been kept from me by Hubbard’s decree for so many years. I spent every spare moment and burned the midnight oil for years. Fortunately I had the love, support and even sometimes understanding of my family, which as I say was lucky for me since it was a weird time of my life. Eventually I began posting on Geir’s and Elizabeth’s and finally Vinaire’s blogs.

              Until my daughter renounces her relationship with me, she will not be allowed to be in communication with her mother, who works at the International Base at San Jacinto, California. I’ve told her to tell them what they want to hear and talk to your mother; however, she rejects this having weaned herself of the Scientology way of telling any lie necessary to accomplish any mission to hand. She believes that it will be better long term to get back in touch with her mother in an honest way with her own integrity intact. I silently agree with her.

              It is your story which is well and fully written. I have only a couple favorite autobiographies by ex-Scientologists and yours is my favorite. Very easy to read, human, and complete. I’m not sure if it is so poignant to me because we are veterans of the same war or if it would be as interesting to someone not familiar with the war.

              Today my life is easy and enjoyable. Thank you all for reading this.

            10. Maybe someday muse will get me to write about my 12 years in Sea Org, 3 of which were on Apollo close to Hubbard.

              .

            11. You must. Simply must. Your style is honest, warm, real, and vulnerable. It would be a crime if you didn’t do it.

              Many of these things we figure out we’ll figure out and many we won’t. Your own story can only be written by you. With the amount of output that you’ve been producing, I think you can write this in a month in your spare time.

            12. 2nd- I like how you thought about the golden rod. Not going into agreement with it.
              Now it’s on white paper typed up with a golden crest with sea horses on sides of the double triangle S. Not familiar with that art. I said Flag Land Base, I guess because that’s where I had gone last.

            13. Chris – No sadness just the opposite. My heartbreak was in ’84, then was out for 25 years and went back in for a year to find a whole different Church. After my disappointment and Debbie stating what I saw, I researched for answers to the many unanswered questions I had. Since I post a lot public, as part of my healing, they finally ack’d me. Yea! Special Person’s we are.

            14. Cheers! You are in good company you dirty wog! Wait, am I violating anything by writing to you? Marildi, is there a reference barring SP’s from talking to one another? Oh wait, nevermind Marildi… Better leave that one for now!

            15. hehe — As soon as you get your goldenrod! 🙂 Meanwhile, I don’t want you getting into any trouble! (oh wait again! worrying about getting into trouble IS PTS’ness, isn’t it? ah well, it’s complicated!) (joke)

            16. I know. You’re a complicated guy. But Scientology can handle that. 🙂

            17. Well, actually they already did handle me. They correctly labelled me so that I can be efficiently handled. I am one of the 2-1/2%. Now all I have left to do is my steps A-E; a couple lifetimes of shoveling concrete, and I’m good. I’ll still be barely knocking at the front door of my billion year contract.

            18. Okay, Chris, I see where the problem started. You still refuse to recognize there are different uses of the word Scientology, although I’ve repeated so many times what I mean by Scientology. So perhaps the first logical fallacy (“The Scotsman!”) was actually the fallacy of Needling:

              “simply attempting to make the other person angry, without trying to address the argument at hand. Sometimes this is a delaying tactic. Needling is also Ad Hominem if you insult your opponent. You may instead insult something the other person believes in…” http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#hominem

              And the other thing you’re still missing is that a logical fallacy has to pertain to “the argument at hand” (as per the above quote). So when you throw in (alleged) logical fallacies from the past it becomes in fact an Ad Hom.

              Btw, it started out that I was just trying to have some light banter with you and put a little ARC back in. Doesn’’t look like you could sustain that for very long, though.

            19. Marildi, here’s a different look at our argument: The original problem is that it is you see inconsistencies in the Tech of Scientology. Seeing these inconsistencies is inconsistent with your belief in Scientology. The inconsistencies that you see are irreconcilable with Keeping Scientology Working. This irreconcilability is the root source of your reaching for any reconciliation — even a fallacious one such as that “Chris doesn’t understand Scientology.” This is natural but opens the door to religious zealousness and thus fallacious arguments. This is no big deal. You only need to care more about trusting yourself and your own well honed ability to look. You use this very good skill to construct justifying arguments for the well worn scriptures of Scientology and they work fine within that context.

            20. Chris, if you really mean to have a comm cycle with me, please state some specifics.

            21. Marildi, when you say that I don’t have a grasp of Scientology and that is the reason why I point out inconsistencies in Scientology, it makes me feel that you are being disingenuous. Because it is untrue that I don’t grasp Scientology, I come to the idea that you must also see problems that bang up against and are in disagreement with KSW; that the real problem lies in your ability to see these inconsistencies but the clash between your fixed ideas and agreements with the KSW Series are overwhelming your own perception. That is how false data works.

              I don’t have really anything more than this: I believe in your ability to wade through this morass of contrary data; to compare datums of comparable magnitude (meaning of the same context) and to emerge bright and new.

              If you choose to Keep Scientology Working, then you shall sentence yourself to remain within the framework of Scientology. If you choose to trust yourself and your “own gut,” then I suspect you will emerge Xena, Warrior Princess par excellence et meilleur que jamais!

            22. Chris, just before you posted this comment I posted a reply to Vinaire ( 2013-02-08 at 07:19 ) accusing him of not understanding what he was talking about as the reason for his criticism – and I gave the specifics of why I was saying that.

              If I’ve accused you of not having “a grasp of Scientology and that is the reason why I [you] point out inconsistencies in Scientology” – and done so without giving specifics, then I apologize. I think we need to stay in PT from now on because just stating generalities from the past goes nowhere.

              So with that in mind, if you are still interested in discussing the topics of your last couple of posts, I think you yourself can see that so far you have only stated generalities. Please give the specifics of one particular point at a time.

            23. Your innermost questions are framed up in a way which is consistent with the context and frame of reference in which you find yourself. The exact questions are keyed in by the inconsistencies which you personally see. The answers that you currently seek can be revealed to you by yourself whenever you decide to look.

              From your heart, what would you like to know?

            24. I see lots of apparent inconsistency in Scientology but I believe it can be resolved by knowing how to “play the piano” (I’m sure you know that expression) and by understanding the whole of it well enough to know what to apply when. This view is based on the actual consistency of the basic principles of both tech and admin. That’s why I’ve always wanted to discuss those as I don’t see any inconsistencies in them.

              I’ll also say that I’m not denying LRH made mistakes as time went on, and that those mistakes may have been based on case and/or on poor judgement which itself may have been a result of incredible pressures on him, of which there is hard evidence. But no matter which combination of factors you want to emphasize, the bottom line for me is that it doesn’t take away from my understanding and immense appreciation of the core philosophy and tech. And if you disagree with that, fine – it’s your right to. I’m no longer of a mind that everybody has to agree with Scientology as that isn’t realistic to expect. Okay?

            25. Marildi: I see lots of apparent inconsistency in Scientology but I believe it can be resolved by knowing how to “play the piano” (I’m sure you know that expression) and by understanding the whole of it well enough to know what to apply when. This view is based on the actual consistency of the basic principles of both tech and admin. That’s why I’ve always wanted to discuss those as I don’t see any inconsistencies in them. I’ll also say that I’m not denying LRH made mistakes as time went on, and that those mistakes may have been based on case and/or on poor judgement which itself may have been a result of incredible pressures on him, of which there is hard evidence. But no matter which combination of factors you want to emphasize, the bottom line for me is that it doesn’t take away from my understanding and immense appreciation of the core philosophy and tech. And if you disagree with that, fine – it’s your right to. I’m no longer of a mind that everybody has to agree with Scientology as that isn’t realistic to expect. Okay?

              Chris: Agree that when a person decides to play Scientology that they need to know how to play Scientology. Agree that you don’t see any inconsistencies in Scientology. Agree that you like to discuss Scientology and would add that it stretches over your own world view. In discussion, you stretch it to fit over everyone’s world view. Regardless, the only thing left for you to do now is play. The reason that I think you don’t is that you see some inconsistency which bars you.

              If you want to call the wrong and harmful parts of Scientology LRH’s mistakes and say that they were squeezed out of him by enormous pressure, well, I’m not quite ready for that.

              No matter the pressure, I would never give up my own wife to go to prison alone. LRH shouldn’t have either. He let his own wife and staff go to prison while he went into hiding. If he cared for Scientology, nevermind the people in his life, he would’ve thrown himself on that sword and martyr’d himself as that would’ve done the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics. He would’ve turned Operation Snow White into public relations fiasco for the government. History is full of selfless acts like. Anyway he wasn’t even facing death but only a few years in prison. Then after coming out of prison Mary Sue was put under house arrest and granted persona non grata by LRH. I know this, I met her, and saw a broken woman not matching with the lore of her Sea Org career. This was truly the work of a Henry the VIII, not a Gandi, MLK, or Jesus de Christo. In prison, Scientologists could’ve rallied around that image forever. Instead he created a nightmare public relations fiasco allowed that nightmare public relations fiasco to go unchallenged and instead went into hiding. Find hiding on his tone scale. I have more. Lots more. But having leveled these inconsistencies for myself, I don’t want to go back to before I got this experience. Here is your leadership example being emulated by Miscavige. Scientology leaders take themselves very seriously.

              On the brighter side, your Scientology views were mine a short time ago. Your faithfulness and well articulated arguments for Scientology have over these years been a major source of benefit for me. You’ve forced me to compare my own positive views on Scientology to the greater world and forced me re-think my outlook on Scientology. This is not me being snide but for reals. I have learned a lot and I thank you, again not snide — sincere.

              What is 100% consistent about the practice of Scientology is its placebo- and nocebo-effects. This achieves a zero-sum game.

            26. Chris: “In discussion, you stretch it [Scientology] to fit over everyone’s world view.”

              Scientology is simply a frame of reference which, when I apply it to life, I see consistency and workability and truth. Also, when I compare it to other worldviews, there again it’s because I am comparing not merely something I’ve learned as a theory but what I’ve learned through observation and application. And because Scn happens to be the “language” I’ve learned , that’s the one I speak when I make those comparisons.

              Chris: “Regardless, the only thing left for you to do now is play [Scientology]. The reason that I think you don’t is that you see some inconsistency which bars you.”

              Oh, I do “play”. Just for you, tonight I finally found a description I’ve been looking for – one that fits perfectly with my experience, rather than it being true on some theoretical level only. Here it is:

              “There are two distinct divisions in Scientology. The first is philosophic, the second is technical. Under the philosophic heading one discovers the ways and means of forming new ways of life and of evaluating or creating standards of livingness and beingness. By this knowingness alone, and without processing, it should be understood clearly that a new way of life could be created, or an old way of life could be understood and better endured or altered.” (Creation of Human Ability)

              Note especially the last sentence: “By this knowingness alone and without processing..” etc.

              Chris: “If you want to call the wrong and harmful parts of Scientology LRH’s mistakes and say that they were squeezed out of him by enormous pressure, well, I’m not quite ready for that.”

              I actually didn’t mean to say that. All I meant is that the core philosophy and the tech it underlies is what I believe is consistent and contains more truth than any other system or path I know of. LRH did have a case. He did make fatal mistakes and I don’t mean to excuse them wholesale. I was only saying that at least in part it there was the factor of pressures on him – i.e. heavy counter-efforts, some of which are documented in public records, as I’m sure you know.

              But even if all the things LRH has been accused of were true with no justification for them whatsoever, it doesn’t change the truths he derived. Any other viewpoint would come down to Ad Hominen.

              Chris: What is 100% consistent about the practice of Scientology is its placebo- and nocebo-effects. This achieves a zero-sum game.

              Well, just as you consider that I view the world through the lens of Scientology, I would submit that you view the world, including Scientology, through your own lens(es).

              But I definitely appreciated the acks you gave me! Those were through the more rosy-colored glasses you sometimes view through – which I happen to admire. And not just when you use them on me (but that too :)).

            27. Marildi: “But even if all the things LRH has been accused of were true with no justification for them whatsoever, it doesn’t change the truths he derived. Any other viewpoint would come down to Ad Hominen.”

              Nicely put.

            28. Knowledge stands by itself.

              Any association of knowledge with a source is introducing the additive of ego.

              Any association is secondary to ‘what-is’..

              .

            29. Wow. One of your worst efforts but a nice walk through the garden. Is it that you don’t have a working e-meter? I will send you one. Just send email me your address.

            30. Okay, let’s see if you can do any better. Why aren’t you auditing?

              You were highly praising the results you were getting from solo auditing and after a while you posted that you weren’t doing it any more. Why not?

            31. Marildi, Please pick one:
              1. Case too snarled from out-tech squirrel auditing. Badly in need of review for out-int; out-list; and too PTS.
              2. On win, taking a break.
              3. Done.
              4. None of the above.

              Now Marildi, how are any of these answers relevant to your progress up the Bridge? If I jumped off The Bridge and told you to, would you just do it?

              Joking aside and sincerity queued up, I think that you should continue on the Bridge. If you have a reason for not continuing, what is it?

            32. Chris, you are asking me to guess the answer to a question that only you know the answer to, rather than simply answering the question. Is there some reason you don’t want to answer?

            33. You did it again. Instead of a true 2-way comm, you are simply being evasive by batting back the question.

              In these last couple exchanges I was making an attempt to have a straightforward, sincere comm cycle with you. Is that not possible?

            34. It is not absolutely necessary that there be a cause to every event. That there is no reason in this case is a plausible answer. Why should it be not acceptable?

              .

            35. Vinaire: “It is not absolutely necessary that there be a cause to every event. That there is no reason in this case is a plausible answer. Why should it be not acceptable?”

              You should ask Chris that, Vin. I’ve tried it both ways with him. I’ve given him sincere answers, down to specifics in earlier comm cycles, and I did so mostly out of respect for what I thought was a sincere question on his part. However, he out and out refused to accept what I said. So his question seemed more like an attempt to force his viewpoint on me. His mind was apparently already made up and he was simply bound and determined to get me to see it his way. And this is in spite of the fact that he has vehemently expressed his disagreement with evaluating for others.

              Anyway, since that went nowhere, I tried just not getting into it with him – but he won’t accept that either. He remains relentless about it, like he’s fixated on it. In the latest exchange, I tried to get him to put the shoe on the other foot so he could get a sense of how his question hits me, but so far he is also refusing to do that.

            36. NO CAUSE TO A EVENT? No event can happens without cause..No event can be caused without out intention. I thought inteligent beings were posting in this blog.. Weeeeeeeeeeeell, I was mistaken again..[kidney punch]

            37. I think that the question needs to be reformulated such that self (Chris and/or Marildi) are taken out of the picture. The possible reformulation of the question could be:

              (1) Is there enough auditing occurring among non-COS Scientologists?

              (2) What is needed to get more auditing occurring among non-COS Scientologists?

              (3) What barrier needs to be removed?

              (4) What opportunities should be created or taken advantage of?

              .

            38. True 2-way communication includes an answer to the question. This the reason for my TR-3. When you finally answer the question, I will then use my TR-4. I am not auditing you and you are not bull-baiting me. We are just talking here.

              Vin asks why I wouldn’t accept that there is simply “not an answer” to the question. Well, actually I will. Is that the answer to the question? You don’t have an answer?

              Otherwise, there is an answer to the question why the single most major proponent of Scientology on this blog won’t audit. Not only won’t audit but won’t go near discussing the matter.

              That wide-berth is a glaring out-point like no other.

            39. Chris, you misrepresent the facts – facts that you very well know. See my last reply to Vinaire.

              Btw, did you know that “enforced have” is suppressive? It means “making someone accept what they didn’t want” (HCOB 3 Jun 72R)

              Here’s something else to consider:

              “A person who is connected to a suppressive person, group or thing will dramatize a ‘can’t-have’ or an “’enforced overt-have’…A ‘can’t-have’ means just that – a depriving of substance or action or things. An ‘enforced overt-have’ means forcing upon another a substance, action or thing not wanted or refused by the other. The technical fact is that a PTS person got that way because the suppressive was suppressive by depriving the other or enforcing unwanted things upon the person. The PTS person will dramatize this characteristic in reaction to the suppression. (HCO PL 12 May 72R)