I have mentioned my gains in Scientology several times. Time for a a Top 5 list of what did it for me. No lengthy explanations, just a concise summary. Note: You can find explanations for the various Scientology services here.
- OT 8: I got free from my past, from shame, blame or regret. And since OT 8 I’ve had no nightmares.
- Communication training routines (TRs): From a shy geek to a social outgoing geek − from socially hiding to a radio show host in a couple of years.
- OT 7: Freedom from stress. Composure in almost any situation (I was nervous and awkward before Scientology).
- OT 2: Boost in my artistic abilities − started creating music and digital artwork.
- Method 1 word clearing: Had lost my interest in astronomy (a very important subject for me) a few years before. I believe I would not have regained it without M1.
The list could easily be extended with more tangiable and lasting gains from other Scientology services. I am aware of, and cull gains that can equally well be attributed to other factors in my life. The list above shows gains that can only be attributed to that specific service done.
Geir Isene - uncut 
It seem that on OT8 one loses the sense of humility.
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Both humility and arrogance are additives, and suck 😛
+1. They certainly can be!
Not anything near the KHTK.
A disgruntled Vinaire 🙂
Hugs, Vin!
You seem conflicted. There is a cognitive dissonance there.
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Hi there Kid… could you tell me what you mean by that comment? love to hear from you!!
Great Geir, specially the 8!
It seems that on OT8 one strengthens the sense of “tit for tat”.
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I forgive you, Vin 🙂
Peace and hugs.
Let’s see that forgiveness in action. I don’t think you have any inkling of what KHTK is, or any sense of mindfulness.
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Peace, Vin. Mindfulness. Calm. Hugs. I like you – that session of KHTK in Oslo in 2010 was really cool 🙂
So, can I link my thoughts here to the thoughts on my blog, or any such links are still out of bounds, because I may be “promoting my blog”?
It is not me that objected the most to your link whoring on my blog. As long as you don’t actually participate in any discussion but use my blog primarily to proselytizing, then you will naturally be met with objections. Are you a bit disgruntled that people objected?
That surprises me! A link takes only one line, and if a person is not interested in it, they don’t have to click on it. Looks like other people are running your blog.
Deal with how this blog is. It’s easier than to keep protesting it. Or you may try building up fruitful discussions on your own blog instead.
vin: A link takes only one line, and if a person is not interested in it, they don’t have to click on it. Looks like other people are running your blog.
DeE: I disagree in the fact that other people put up many different sites or videos that we may or not be interested in. However in the past it seems to me that your sites and comments got too redundant and seemed pushy, wherein I would just avoid what you say. I hope you take this only as opinion from a sometimes commenter and mean no harm to your philosophy. I like when you give your personal opinion or something new to think about. 🙂
Hi Geir….. You have changed your destiny by having auditing… with that action you have cause over your life, that is more than a win… that is grand!!!!!
V… it seems you are back in the “””idiot box seeing that from the comments you make on the subject of which you dont know a thing about.
Buddha said “” those who express opinion on subject not experienced are self made fools”. 🙂
PS: tell me that you missed me or else!!!!
The model for existence seems to be “manifestation – filter – perception.”
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What is important is knowledge that helps remove the filter between manifestation and perception, and not who talks about knowledge, or who is the originator, or who is the source.
Focus on who, and not on knowledge, seems to be a big part of the filter.
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You missed the point. The point is to deliver what the other participants don’t object too much to.
I think that you are missing are missing the point of discussion, which is knowledge and not just entertainment.
Never said otherwise.
In any gain, the important point is what brought the gain (it was not Scientology), or, more specifically, what process brought the gain (it was not the OT processes).
IMHO, what brings the gain is the person LOOKING. The fundamental process is LOOKING. If the person cannot look there won’t be any gain. All no gain cases are where the person is unable to look. The reasons why a person is unable to look can be many.
A Scientology process simply guides a person where to look. If that process is not guiding a person correctly then no gains will occur. Insistence on getting and answer (TR3) is not proper guidance. If a person has no answer to a question then that’s it. Maybe a different process is needed. What is important is un-stacking the mind.
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Vin: ” If a person has no answer to a question then that’s it. Maybe a different process is needed.”
Vin, you are missing the point of the auditing process, which IS getting the person to LOOK. LOOKING is essential. Sometimes digging a bit – or a lot – is essential in order to look and see. The answer is not always there ready to un-stack or ready to un-stack to a degree (depth) necessary to linearly resolve an issue (a chain of charged events with a context of similarity). The big advantage of the auditing process, especially early on, is that it assists the pc in learning that even when something is difficult to confront, by doing so in a guided fashion relief is attained. Simple “un-stacking” can easily open the door to rabbitting from an issue by allowing the mind to go transversely to a different, easier to confront subject, leaving the hot subject touched on but not properly examined.
I am in a hurry, so I will simply provide you with the following link.
http://vinaire.me/2013/06/10/metronomes-meditation/
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V dear… you need to un-stack few more million what ever there is in your universe….but your problem is you un-stack but not as- is.. If you would as-is than those un-stacked whatever you have in you universe would not clutter up your space ….. un-stacking is irrational since where do you put the un-stacked materials? into a different pile? hehehe… the gloves are on!!!!!
Honest question: Do you have this inherent ability and how much of a role do you think it played:
The ability to sit down calmly and figure shit out when the need arises
Very interesting question.
I believe I do have that ability inherently, and that doing the steps on this list allowed me to do so more efficiently and directly. But I do think that is the essence of what happens, yes.
I think much the same about my own experiences; my gains could be either from figuring shit out for myself in a suitable environment, or from $SCIENTOLOGY_MAGIC. But there’s no compelling conclusion either way.
splog: my gains could be either from figuring shit out for myself in a suitable environment, or from…
Dee: for me is a combination. Scientology had it’s place. I received most gains from the internet, studying full time and reaching conclusions, sorting out and seeing truth for myself, about myself and how I relate to others. All the advanced beings out here have given me food to digest and I am pretty darn healthy now. Healthier than ever before and without fear or suppression. It’s really nice and helpful to look at different views, taking what you need or want for greater growth. Loving and understanding people better every day while trusting myself to know, while also trying to return the flow best I can. Continual search and find. Sincere thanks to all who are helping on the many blogs, books and sites. 🙂 Hugs to y’all.
My second biggest gains were TRs and learning to just being there somewhat comfortable in my own skin. The biggest gains though were long after leaving the SO when I took a job training and helping others in IT subjects.
I took the good parts of TRs and just interacted with people as myself. With no org around there was no need to get stats up by Thu 2pm, or to get a certain arbitrary product. All I had to do was get a concept across to a room of people. How easy it that? Yup, it’s actually quite easy.
I could have learned that in many places, it just so happens I learned it from Scientology. But I also learned from Scientology how to be a complete asshole, I haven’t finished unlearning that one quite yet.
splog: But I also learned from Scientology how to be a complete asshole, I haven’t finished unlearning that one quite yet.
LOL, know what you mean. I had to and still do knock myself down a peg or two. That old ego got really built up to never be wrong and smarter than anybody else. Reminds me when I was joining another relatively safe cult and found I had to lose my ego. I said heck I spent many years and lots of money building it up and now I have to lose it? Sh*t, damn.
Thanks for sharing. My first wins were with TRO confronting, something new to me then. Too bad I couldn’t use it successfully when I disagreed with the organization then.
Alan: But I also learned from Scientology how to be a complete asshole, I haven’t finished unlearning that one quite yet.
Chris: Touche’. Myself as well.
I achieved: Free from shame blame and regret after doing FPRD.
I am Grade 0 comp.
In practice it means the following: I can look at somebody which is suffering the one or other way and just walk away without having
bad conscience.
Great result , sarcastic isn´ it?
Your post made me review my “wins” in Scientology. And, unfortunately, this is what I came up with when I looked again, in a new unit of time.
All of my “wins” in Scientology occurred in one time and place – back then – and very rarely apply to me today. It’s similar to the “wins” someone gets from going out for sports in high school, or playing in the orchestra.
I can tell you that Scientology quickly became more of a drag on me personally than a source of “wins”, even though I kept trying to keep the wins going as I continued on as a Scientologist.
Some of the later auditing and training – the most expensive – I received were a complete waste of time and money. And my last 2.5 years on staff was the first time I had ever experienced being actually enslaved.
The only reason I could have ever gotten myself into a position where I ever agreed to be enslaved as a Scientology staff member, is if I had read, duplicated and applied Scientology as it related to my post, and to my life.
Scientology actually teaches you how to be a slave.
That fact tends to put any “wins” I received in Scientology in a different light or context for me. My “wins” become like little pieces of bait which lead to a trap.
Any win in Scientology can be achieved elsewhere for less cost, fewer risks of loss, and more sustainability for a long and happy life.
Alanzo
Al: My “wins” become like little pieces of bait which lead to a trap.
Right and gave me some thoughts. I did have a win after doing the Drug Rundown, which books and ethics didn’t handle. I was running away from something and had gotten into needing speed to do it. It so happened I found Scn at that time, so they get credit. but yes it lead me into doing things i would never do otherwise with lots of losses along the way. Finding the problem, yes, but I could have found it elsewhere, but that’s where I was. However, looking back I can see all the little traps growing into larger ones. No regret, just an experience which I’m sorry for some of it, and learning along the way, would not suggest ethically to another.
Hi there Alanzo…. I am finding it interesting how little you gotten out of your experience…since in my reality every experience we have we create for our self accordiace with our own reality-belief… how we view the Universe around us!
when we believe the ice cream is cold than it is cold, if we would believe it is hot than that sensation for us would be hot and that ice would burn you inside! The same goes with every other considerations regardless what that may be! It is us who decide what is good or bad!
Is this Scientology we’re talking about here? Because from my 20+ yrs. of experience being born into it, I came to the conclusion that it is brainwashing that altered dramatically my personality and fucked up my life beyond repair until I was able to leave it and look at it all again. Just sayin’.
Welcome, Doug.
Please share more of your story, if you like.
I believe that being born into scientology sucks a big way.
But everyone has his / her own story and often not everything was all that bad.
Geir, I know these are your “Top 5” and there were many other steps you took along the way. Your #1 favorite apparently being OT VIII, I am wondering is there any implication that you could have done OT VIII without doing the previous, “prerequisite” steps, the OTI, II, III, IV, V, VI, and OT VII?
Not to mention the Grades 0-IV, before those, and the Clearing Course or going “Clear” on Dianetics, as some people have done?
I think this is germane because the whole thing is supposed to be a “Grade Chart”, implying an applied gradient towards the results.
Does the “Bridge” really comprise a series of steps that need to be done more-or-less in the order given, for best results?
I could have started straight onto solo training and then do OT 2. Or I could have started straight onto OT 5, and then to Solo training and then 7 & 8. A cool route would be: Solo training, OT 2, OT 5, OT 7, OT 8. Throw in the TRs somewhere in there and I would be very happy.
This seems to hark back to the days of Creation of Human Ability and the various routes and steps an auditor would use to determine the appropriate place to work his pc. They usually started with whether or not a pc was able to exteriorize from the body, then work their way down from there to whatever the pc was able to do, and proceed from there.
Speaking of upper levels, I just started reading a book by Alexndra David-Neel titled “Immortality and Reincarnation”, which is a concise overview of the beliefs in China, Tibet and India. Thefirstchapteris about Chinesebeliefs,specifically Taoist beliefs, and the interesting thing is the oldest traditional beliefs included believing that a human person was a composite of many ‘entities’ each of which had it’s own existence. According to them, a person has 10 ‘souls’ for example and there is a hierarchy involved, kind of like an org board, but each one is necessary for a human to be alive and existing.
I can’t wait to read the rest of the book. It is only about 125 pages but covers a lot of ground, including a chapter on theTibetan “bardo thodol”(book of the dead).
http://www.amazon.com/Immortality-Reincarnation-Wisdom-Forbidden-Journey/dp/0892816198
Interesting, Val. Does it sound very much like this, from History of Man:
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INJECTED ENTITIES are the third class of target. These are actually synthetics. They are ridges that “think”. They form a very complex pattern. They have geographical areas in the body. These areas are standard, preclear to preclear. These areas answer up on an E-meter like actual minds rather than compartments of a mind.
The areas are the CENTRE (forehead and down), the RIGHT INSIDE (from the edge of the jaw halfway out to the shoulder), the RIGHT OUTSIDE (from halfway to the shoulder to the point of the shoulder) the LEFT INSIDE (opposite from the right inside), the LEFT INSIDE (opposite from the right inside), the LEFT OUTSIDE (opposite from the right outside), the STOMACH ENTITY (located in the area of the solar plexus), plus various other entities held in by these basic entities.
These entities run off their own past deaths, on other tracks, hold sections of the body paralysed, bar areas from being audited, withhold information from “I” and do other mischief. They are
actually the basis of “demon circuits” (as covered in DIANETICS: THE MODERN SCIENCE OF MENTAL HEALTH) and they mirror the personality of persons antipathetic to the preclear They are entirely stimulus-response. Each one has, from preclear to preclear, the same personality in the same body position. The RIGHT INSIDE, for instance, answers up to the name of “crew chief”. They are male and female. Their source is probably a “softened-up” theta being and they disappear when electronic incidents are audited. Prior to their disappearance, they can exhibit a wonderful and awesome role in confusing the preclear. The auditor can move the attention of the preclear into one of these and audit it through a death or painful experience and so bring it up to present time. In view of the fact that auditing basic electronic incidents eradicates them, little attention need be paid to them by the auditor beyond knowing that they are there, that they are the “mysterious voices” in the heads of some preclears, that they make critical or commanding remarks to him and serve, in general, as a fine source of aberration. Paralysis, anxiety stomachs, arthritis and many ills and aberrations have been relieved by auditing them. An E-meter shows them up and makes them confess their misdeeds. They are probably just compartments of the mind which, cut off, begin to act as though they were persons. Here is an inexhaustible source of study and speculation which I leave to another, having located the method of wiping them out without paying any attention to them.
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Hi marildi, this seems relevant to your HoM quote. I just posted it over at Marty’s in response toTerrill’s LRH quote:
“A key point is that per the important HCOB “The Nature of a Being”
we are not single unit beings, for example entities are given as a factor.”
Valkov: Interesting. This viewpoint is validated by the oldest traditional Chinese Taoist teachings, that hold a man(woman) is a being composed of (at least) 10 different independent ‘ soul-like’ entities, without any of which a human being is incomplete and that a person can even die if one of these entities leaves the body prematurely.
This is from Alexandra David-Neel’s book on Immortality and Reincarnation.
Hi Valkov… In my reality the numbers dont count…. how one do the OT levels…… those are just numbers not the material….and the meaning of the material could have been put in at any place at any level… I dont believe in secrecy that was used to make it interesting…a selling point to make people reach for it… that is and was totally wrong,
Interesting, Geir. I like your complete honesty.
TRs are a double-edged sword. On one hand, doing OT TR0 and TR0 as drills can help one silence the mind and be more effective, just like other forms of meditation. Also like other forms of meditation, it puts one in a highly hypnotically receptive state of mind – which can be dangerous when others try to manipulate a person.
Per reports, TR0 Bullbait has been equally harmful and helpful to many. It’s an overkill to “flatten all buttons”. Some things should be offensive to our sensibilities. We should not have deadpan faces and expressions when faced with trauma or criminal activity but instead, learn to open up and properly express ourselves in a social context. Trs don’t teach that and in all honesty, Geir, sometimes your communication and emotional expressiveness fall a bit flat in this regard. (You know I love you, but this is a side-effect I see in many exes and practicing scns)
The other TRs seem to have more to do with acting than genuine communication. Making others’ words your own. Mmmm. Don’t have much use for that as a drill. Acknowledging, mmm, that’s okay. Again – scns overdo this and many feel a need to acknowledge every comment, answer every post on a blog. It comes down to whether one is attempting to have a real conversation or control it. Those TRs teach one to control a conversation.
My comments on the OT levels –
This is something to which I’ve given much thought and spent a great deal of time researching. Personally, I completed through OT IV but read the other OT materials as well.
I see the OT levels as an attempt to rid oneself of brain cellular memories. There has been a huge amount of information released in the last couple of years about brain cells having individual memories, preferences, likes & dislikes, etc. Just Google “Brain Cell Memory”. The latest research shows that most of those memories aren’t permanent, anyway, and that the brain cells are capable of changing preferences and much memory disappears minutes after it is formed.
So the majority of time, the years spent on upper OT levels, is wasted time.
But not quite all.
Geir, the OT levels are brain experimentation. You must know that there was never any proper research done on those OT levels. Not the safe kind, the scientifically accepted kind. You must also be aware that a good number of people have gone quite crazy from the OT levels and the sci-fi stories about OT levels are simply stories.
So one takes a chance on the OT levels. Am I getting rid of a good, useful memory or perception, or a bad one?
It seems to me one can have a safer, faster result by simply addressing one’s negative reactions or responses, hesitations or lack of abilities directly.
As far as Method 1 – I was a Professional Wordclearer. Method 1 is outstanding, but if I were to change it, I’d say rather than just clear words on subjects, a person should go off and re-study those subjects. The wordclearing technique itself is tedious, time-consuming and overkill, but revitalizing a person’s interest in a subject by re-studying it to understanding is priceless. There is also something extremely therapeutic about touching on words that are reactive. The most amazing results I’ve seen on Method 1 had nothing to do with actually looking up the words, but dealing with the word reactions. Seriously. That should be a counselling technique if it isn’t already – addressing words that make one react or feel funny.
Very interesting post.
Sheila: ” Geir, sometimes your communication and emotional expressiveness fall a bit flat in this regard.”
I am a nerd – concise and mathematically minded 🙂
But I have thought about this lately and how Scientology has contributed to a certain “flatness”. More on that later, perhaps.
Sheila: ” Geir, sometimes your communication and emotional expressiveness fall a bit flat in this regard.”
Geir: “I am a nerd – concise and mathematically minded 🙂
But I have thought about this lately and how Scientology has contributed to a certain “flatness”. More on that later, perhaps.”
I’m a nerd too and I come with a whole bunch of 3-letter acronyms. But I’ve never really understood all the brooha around auditor TRs with claims they can be dangerous.
TRs are drills, they teach a basic skill. How is one to learn that skill without actually doing it? Rugby forwards learn to scrum by doing it over and over pushing a big metal frame around the field, welders learn to weld by welding scrap metal into shapes over and over till it’s perfect. My son learns guitar by playing chords repeatedly till his fingers bleed.
TRs are all about communicating naturally and that takes practice, lots of it. Because they are drills not processes, auditors should do them often whenever they get slightly rusty. I don’t see the harm in this at all. I should add that my experiences with TRs were all positive – out here in The Last Outpost we escaped all the insanity from RTC that others talk about and the only references we had was Dan Koon in the movie and Dianetics 55!
I suppose crazy fools could add all manner of crazy stuff into the drills and turn them into something else, but then they are not TRs anymore. But rugby coaches can also teach strange techniques that when used collapse the scrum and cause neck injuries – that’s not rugby it’s something else. So if you want to help someone learn to communicate naturally, how else would you do it? At some point the person has to practice communicating and the drill has to be realistic. That means not doing bat-shit crazy things in Bullbait and demanding unrealistic results from the student.
TRs are one of the few areas where Hubbard made the effort to fully explain exactly what is to be done, and I just don’t see how TRs can be inherently harmful. Perverted TRs yes, but that’s just life and most things in life can be perverted to be harmfull.
My R0.02
Hey, Splog. How are ya? 😀
I get what you’re saying. But anything can be overdone. For goodness sake, people have even died from overdosing on drinking too many glasses of WATER.
Hubbard’s intentions with TRs were not to teach anyone to communicate. It was to teach auditors not to react in session but carry on a session communication without being thrown off by the client. Check out all the refs and you’ll see that this really was/is the purpose for TRs being developed.
For that, they are GREAT.
Outside of that, OT TR0 and TR0 are fine. One SHOULD keep in mind while doing them that they put a person in a highly receptive frame of mind – technically, a near sleep state with corresponding brain waves – and a person should be completely safe from unwanted influences while in that state.
TR0 Bullbait, not so good. Not only have people been abused by it, but some buttons are GOOD. Reacting to things spontaneously can be GOOD. And you know what – your friends will tend to flatten your bigger buttons, anyway. Outside of scn, we use humor and it does the same thing, but in a much gentler way.
IMHO, I don’t think making others’ thoughts and statements your own is a good form of communicating. When we speak from the heart, others KNOW. Otherwise, it’s a social show. There are times that’s necessary. With friends, TRs should go out the window. Go ahead, interrupt, get excited, blush, be spontaneous when you communicate and throw the drills away with your friends. That’s life, that’s communication and it’s FUN.
You: “I get what you’re saying. But anything can be overdone.”
I hear you 😀 I thought about what you said, my first thoughts:
The missing bit is judgement; like common sense it’s sadly lacking in this world…
I’m a big fan of judgement and it freaks me out when I’m not allowed to use my own. It freaks me out even more when other people refuse to use their’s. So take Bullbait as an example – having the ability to be virtually unaffected by anything the other guys says ever, doesn’t mean he should actually do that always. It’s perfectly OK to be hugely surprised with a surprise birthday party, that’s appropriate. A Toastmaster will find it useful to be able to ignore and NOT be distracted by a heckling idiot in the audience.
The only way I know to get this judgement is to be able to do the action fully, then sit back with experience and decide how much to use when. This part is almost completely absent in Scientology nowadays. IAS members are not permitted to decide how much they want to donate today; since KSW came out auditors have less and less right to decide what they should do in session. But it wasn’t always like that.
I also don’t buy the idea that TR0 is somehow inherently hypnotic. If so, half the things humans do in life would be hypnotic. Or maybe half the things humans do in life ARE hypnotic in which case they must learn to deal with it. People who receive hypnotic effects from doing TR0 are probably gettting the same effect from many other activities like charismatic preachers and politicians, and I have no idea what to do about that. Maybe they could try hiding from the world.
I don’t see TRs as being the problem, the problem is lack of judgement and whatever brought THAT about.
Awesome post, Splog. I agree, too.
‘cept when you were half-joking about half the world being in a hypnotic state… it’s no joke. It is. Maybe not anywhere near half the people or time, but a lot. Look at all the garbage we buy and how we waste resources for no good reason. In 3rd world countries where they work 12-16 hrs/day in factories, they’re in a daze. Then add drugs, pollutants… Stupid? Insane? Sure.
Physically and mentally, meditation and OT TR0 or similar produce a lot of theta waves. Lots of articles on this, it’s just a fact. TRs DO produce a very suggestible state. And as you brought up, preachers, politicians, top salespeople and conartists are masters at producing that state in us, too.
There’s nothing wrong with being aware when we are vulnerable. We learn we shouldn’t drive while intoxicated, not make huge decisions when angry. Well, we shouldn’t sign billion year contracts after a few hours of OT TR0, or take on a holy war crusade after a sermon, either. That’s all I’m saying.
Have you ever watched the TV series, “The Dollhouse”?
I wasn’t joking about half the world being in a hypnotic state 🙂
I think it’s even necessary to some degree if a life form is going to evolve into a social animal capable of interaction – some way is needed for average members of the herd to just go along with the leader’s ideas; without that you have a bunch of individuals and start trying to herd cats.
I have most of “The Dollhouse” right here in the house, but I never managed to make it past the first half of the first episode. And that’s knowing full well it’s Whedon’s project 🙂 I had a bad reaction to it, the same reaction I had to “Saving Private Ryan” – that took many attempts to flatten and I honestly didn’t feel like doing it again for The Dollhouse. Is there something in it worthwhile, something good enough to persist through to get?
SPLOG: “I think it’s even necessary to some degree if a life form is going to evolve into a social animal capable of interaction – some way is needed for average members of the herd to just go along with the leader’s ideas; without that you have a bunch of individuals and start trying to herd cats.”
YES YES YES!
My view is that mankind is evolving to become more independent, not that it has fallen away from independent thought and action. In medieval times, for example, a soldier found thinking alone in his bunk would be considered insane. So would a man found walking alone on the road.
In Biblical times, people “heard voices” telling them what to do. Independent thought was considered a voice of God then. Individual thinking is very, very NEW to us.
We live in exciting times. Finding and developing a healthy balance between instinct and independence is perhaps our biggest hurdle. I see this with animals I rescue as well. Once humanised, they forget many instincts. Parrots that are successfully rehabilitated and released have somehow managed to find that balance – and the flocks give them high status for their (limited) ability to communicate with humans (i.e., successfully begging for food or presenting a sick chick to a human to help).
We have an instinct to follow the herd, to group. It’s a strong one, too. It’s not a bad thing, if we can learn to also never compromise personal integrity and compassion when part of a group and not lose our individual abilities to create in the process.
Re The Dollhouse series – YES, it’s worth seeing. She evolves – and it has a wonderful ending – the world is not lost, after all. Keep that in mind while watching it. I thought the whole thing was stunning, but how she evolves and watching that just knocked me out. It’s not an end, after all. Hope isn’t lost – it’s a new beginning.
We learn, we grow, we evolve and it’s beautiful.
Personally I don’t believe in any automatic evolution from lower to higher states.
I get it – 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in action. I also subscribe to this idea and yet can we divorce our sense of anthropomorphism completely from what we feel is organized?
I wrote a short post with a couple pieces of music, one IS music and one might not be but surely is rhythm. I’m wondering why the second piece (metronome natural synchronous rhythm) is automatically organizing itself?
iamvalkov: “Personally I don’t believe in any automatic evolution from lower to higher states.”
Chris: “I get it – 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in action. I also subscribe to this idea and yet can we divorce our sense of anthropomorphism completely from what we feel is organized?”
Me: Humans are notoriously anthropomorphic and like to read human values into the universe. But they don’t exist there.
I’m not sure in what sense you and valkov use the term “higher states”, but if you are talking about biological evolution then the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does not apply as a driver or limiting factor:
Biologically, there is no such thing as a “higher state”, there are only “different states”; and single celled amoebae are _vastly_ more successful at survivial than humans. Our species has a life expectancy of maybe 3 million years (being very generous with what constitutes human), amoebae have been around for > a billion years. If you mean humans are higher states than amoebae, that is itself an anthropomorphic fallacy.
But the killer is the big orange ball in the sky. Bring that in, you must take out the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics wrt biological evolution.
Valkov: “Personally I don’t believe in any automatic evolution from lower to higher states.”
That makes sense. Anything automatic would tend to refute free will.
Marildi: Anything automatic would tend to refute free will.
Chris: Must it?
Definition of “automatic”:
a. acting or operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or control: an automatic light switch; a budget deficit that triggered automatic spending cuts.
b. Self-regulating: an automatic washing machine.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/automatic
My mistake. You were emphasizing automatic and I was looking at anything + refute. haha we flipped, you refuting free will and me defending it…LOL
Marildi: Anything automatic would tend to refute free will.
Chris: Must it?
Alan: I think not. I don’t see why automatic and free will *have* to be mutually exclusive.
Free will also includes the option to not care, leaving some aspect alone to work on automatic.
haha, yes that’s the way I took it, but she didn’t mean that.
Agreed.
Geir, I like your nerdiness. 😉 You’re sharp.
But Geir, I don’t find nerds (outside scn) to lack in emotional response or expressiveness at all. In fact, if anything, they are more responsive, more childlike, more excitable, more enthusiastic than your average Joes.
TRs – particularly TR0 BB, create a sort of barrier to receiving communication fully. Yes, they make one less the effect of a negative statement, but that’s not always a good thing.
It’s FUN to get reactions from others. It’s also FUN to get others to react. Humour is receiving the effect and learning to roll with it. Something missing in the seriousness of scn.
I think the world of you and only mentioned it as an aside. It’s not THAT important. But how’s this – just for the sake of experience – try rolling with what I said. Receive the impact, laugh and joke about it and throw it back at me. It’s a new TR, kinda. 😉
You frequent with different nerds than me. I have ran companies with some of the most acclaimed nerds in their field. 🙂
and you should have much more auditing… much.. much more to see things in the more positive light. Negative outlook is low-heavy energy, made up by you up from the accumulated un-confronted experiences.
Ah, I see. Norwegian nerds must be a whole different brand of nerd, like a fine brand of wine nobody will dare open because the consensus is it’s more valuable when it’s contained.
Microsoft nerds who spent Saturday nights playing mini-golf in the corporate hallways were more my speed, or accountants that needed a smashing good game of 10-pin to handle something a bit more solid than numbers.
Go on, Geir, live a little… open the wine!
“Microsoft nerds”
oxymoron alert!
There ain’t no such thing as a Microsoft nerd.
Geir plays with the big boys and hangs out with the cool kids.
lulz Splog. Microsoft nerds are not the big boys, you say? Microsoft programmers are millionaires. I think you misunderstood me.
Yes indeed, they are not the big boys. When Microsoft produces something that a) isn’t a blatant knock-off of something already there and b) truly original inasmuch as software can be original and c) has vast sweeping effects on the order of Unix, X11, TCP/IP and DNS and Oracle databases, then I’ll concede that the Microsoft ecosystem has upped it’s game. So far, they’ve only partially managed c) by finding a way to get desktops on every desk. That’s comparable to launching iPads at just the right time (an idea which has been around since 1968-1972).
Programmers for the most part are not motivated by money, the Bills and Steves and Marks and Larrys of this world are exceptionally rare so bringing personal wealth into it is way off context. In fact, I’d go so far as to say quoting personal wealth as a measure of success in any human game is off context except if the game really is “accumulating wealth”.
splog’s right. When I talk about nerds, I talk about Sheldon. I talk about the guy I hired from Sweden when he was 19. A couple of years later, he did stuff in less than an hour that “your big boys” didn’t manage to do in months with a team of dozens. I hired guys and gals from around the globe. Real nerds, not the next-click-next-click-finish types of the MS world. When you dream in octal, you’re only half-way there.
I know what you mean, Geir.
I’ve been dreaming in Sopranos lately.
I think it’s a good sign.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those that can read binary, and those who can’t.
I do believe this is the final overall statement on who/what is a real nerd. Someday, who knows, nerds and bacteria shall be all that rules the world. Both are able to think outside of the box and both have an innate sense and ability to adapt to the scene they find themselves living in. The future is to those that can create the very trail they need to follow to find a way out of the labyrinth.
^ Cool post, Sapere. :thumbsup:
SA: “There are 10 types of people in this world, those that can read binary, and those who can’t.”
Me: There’s a new version:
If you, me and dead people can read hex, how many people can read hex?
deaf people
Now we wait to see who else gets it 🙂
lol! Okay Splog and Geir, you win. I admit it – I’ve never spent much time with a Sheldon-style geek. (and Geir, I was only lightly joking/teasing about Norwegian geeks. I am VERY aware of the high concentration of developments there and the large percentage of Norwegians that have dominated the worlds of science and tech! Norwegians have a reputation for BIG BRAINS)
On the other hand, Microsoft Corporation scours the world for independent thinkers who can write code. They are hard to come by and yes, Microsoft does a bit of its own create. Not everything is stolen (though as a corporation, it has always been ruthless.)
Since you geeks completely misunderstood my attempt at humor here, I’ll EXPLAIN it. Geir, I just want to encourage you to “pop the cork” so to speak, to open that vial of potentiality and individuality and let it breathe. Take a chance. Go against normal views of what is valuable if that’s what it takes, and use your personal concepts. I’m completely confident that any risk you take would be a good one. POP THE CORK, LET GO AND HAVE FUN.
Hugs,
Sheila
I don’t theink there is that much more cork to be popped to be honest. I really write straight from my heart and as I move along. Albeit in a consise style – somewhat due to time constraints, but also due to my nerdy nature 🙂
You can’t get much more off from the mainstream than Arne Nordheim – did you listen to that masterpiece a few blog posts back?
I think Geir ‘popped the cork’ sometime ago, as far as personally having fun goes.
splog – you! I can’t just read it, have to work at it.
good god!!! you are blind as a bat!
and btw … they have mini-golf courses inside the Seattle facility, as well as full beds for the programmers. Bill Gates designed it so his best workers would never, ever want to go home.
Geir: “You can’t get much more off from the mainstream than Arne Nordheim – did you listen to that masterpiece a few blog posts back?”
No, but listening now. WOW. Nordheim is sensational. Thank you very much.
Scientology for me … major markers on the bridge for me.
1. Purif — I woke up from the living dead having had no clue I ever lived among them. Got back into life same as when I was young before starting to take drugs.
2. XDN LX RD — Back into valence, back to being ME.
3. KTL — Resolved much of my study difficulties doing small common words and grammar. CTP further complemented the LX RD, being even more ME, very powerful action.
4. DMSMH — Huge case gain just reading the book, the only book that has ever done that. DN55 also a bit.
5. OT III – In a completely exterior state much of the time.
6. OT V — Handled remaining study issues dealing with somatics. Stably exterior at all times. Still more of ME. Various physical disabilities handled. Was finally able to quit smoking without the bank constantly nudging me to start again.
Scientology changed my life … I appreciate Ron’s work, big thanks without bounds.
Great gains! Terrific to hear about them.
I am with you kid….. love those changes!!! 🙂
Soon I will write up my final wins..after 40 years of solo auditing…the level the so called last level of which no one has written about in detail. When achieved even knowledge do not exist..and it is not needed since one has no need for thoughts….concepts… concederations.hehehe or how to spell…
E: or how to spell…
Chris: LOL!
I told my sister that you will come with your motor-chopper.. she recommended that you wrap those family jewels in bubble wrap so the long ride wont damage them! 🙂
LOL! #2
what can you say about the state you have attained as compared with the scn definition of OT (cause over matter energy space, time and thought, subjective and objective, able to ‘operate’ without a body in the MEST universe)? I am curious if you have “regained” the ability to control MEST without using MEST or was that just Hubbard’s mistaken idea?
freebeeing… cause over MEST? Able to operate without the body in the MEST? be cause over? well I have erased immense amount of thoughts-concepts-considerations-agreements..so after that there is not much left of MEST Universe to be doing much with the leftover
I no longer operate since only machines operate and I am not one.
In my reality LRH has a totally different reality as I have but again the subject of ” spiritual state-being” was not his item not his reality since he concentrated 100% on MEST and all his view points including looking at the ”Spiritual state—spiritual universe” were from those view. But these is just my reality.
Controlling MEST? Why would I want to control anything?
The desire to control has been erased, the wanting to control, the need to control, to operate pushing around MEST is a aberration.. Once compulsions are erased one is very contented keeping away from such on activities since there is no stimulation from controlling than one just don’t bother.
Ones “life” becomes become very simple, :: one feeds dresses washes the body and that is that. But one has lots of fun.. since all activities [ in form of communication ] are pleasure related because nothing negative happens.
I am a gardener and created over the years beautiful gardens.. yes there I control where the plants are placed, how they are watered, fed, pruned. gardening is the high-est form of creation while one is still operating in MEST.
Gardening is the expression -the solid form it self . the outcome from pure life force.
All I can say…that the outcome is totally different from my understanding how I have imagined–my reality was than. Of course that is normal because I was looking at the Bridge from human view point, than I only had reality what I have read about Spirituality and not from experience,
So every being after their Walk, when it will be done will see the Bridge and what LRH said in a totally different reality.. and that reality will be from their own experience and that will be again unique, their very own Universe.
PS: again in my reality… there is no such THING as OT… because if there is something than that is energy-matter…and am I cause over? Do I really care? No…
MEST Universe is very little insignificant -puny place… But the part of it I find totally incredibly beautiful… magnificent, majestic, magical is Nature in every shape or form.. If we want to talk OT.. what is OT creation.. than one should look at Nature it self and the rest including human form weeeeeell all that is going down hill all the way.
Thank you Elizabeth.
Do you have a universe of your own under construction?
good heavens no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! why would I need one or want one? In the ” Now ” since there is only that fraction existing no one has one but falsely believe that they have one.. and that is the lie! ownership–having things–believing that one has a universe-space is too a lie since it is simply a consideration.