Free Will

Finally, after a couple of months of revamping, re-editing and polishing, the article “On Will” is published in version 2.0.

You will find it on Scribd.com as well as right here.

Read it. Comment on it. Share it freely.

Many changes in the article came about through inspiration from the contributors on this blog – such as marildi, Maria, Chris Thompson, 2ndxmr, Brendan, Valkov, Vinaire, Dennis, and many others. I value your input, so feel free to discuss the content or alternative views or give links and pointers to relevant data on free will.

Here’s the start of the article:

On the subject of choice, there are two options: Either you really have a choice, or the appearance that you may choose is simply an illusion.

By choice is meant the possibility of will being exercised. Thus, the subject of choice is strongly related to the subject of free will. Do you really possess free will?

Since there are many situations where people seemingly cannot choose what they want, we will refer to free will as meaning potential free will.

You either have potential free will or no free will. In the latter case, it should not even be called will as everything is then simply a series of events with no will involved.

Let us explore the possibility of no free will: You have no choices; it is all predetermined. Everything is simply a series of events. There is no will involved and everything is determined by the laws of the physical universe. This assertion we label a Physical Theory or an Objective Theory.

Determinism is a common view among natural scientists and is gaining ground in the general population. In the book A Brief History of Time the astrophysicist Steven Hawking explains it very well: If you know the state of the universe at any given time and all the laws that govern it, you can calculate all consecutive events. You can determine every single motion in the universe at any time. The brilliant French scientist Pierre-Simon Laplace formulated this idea in a paper published in 1814 (eng. 1902): Although it has been proven that such a thought experiment is impossible, that proof still does not disprove the universe as causally deterministic.

Many physicists disagree with Laplace in that they assert the possibility of randomness in the universe. Random events would break the prospect of calculating the future. However, such being the case still wouldn’t necessarily leave room for any will or real choices.

We see that there are two Objective Theories: the Deterministic Model and the model that allows for random events, the Random Model.

The Objective Theories are attractive in that they present complete systems within the boundaries of the physical universe without any external influence. The beauty of such a system lies in what it can prove — anything physical can be proven in and by the physical universe.

The Objective Theories also make the science of physics the ultimate profound science able to explain it all.

In the Objective Theories, there is no will that can cause anything. Everything is an effect of an earlier effect or is simply a random event. With no will there is never any purpose behind why something happens.

If the worldview of no free will is the truth, it has ramifications into most fields of human endeavor. It most obviously disrupts the field of religion as religions in the main build on the notion of free will and the possibility of choices. But it also disturbs the fields of philosophy, ethics and law. With the removal of the concept of will comes the subtraction of responsibility.

Aristotle outlined the essence of responsibility — a definition that remains the basis for accountability in our judicial systems:

“Aristotle’s discussion is devoted to spelling out the conditions under which it is appropriate to hold a moral agent blameworthy or praiseworthy for some particular action or trait. His general proposal is that one is an apt candidate for praise or blame if and only if the action and/or disposition is voluntary. According to Aristotle, a voluntary action or trait has two distinctive features. First, there is a control condition: the action or trait must have its origin in the agent. That is, it must be up to the agent whether to perform that action or possess the trait — it cannot be compelled externally. Second, Aristotle proposes an epistemic condition: the agent must be aware of what it is she is doing or bringing about.”

There is no accountability for actions if there is no will behind them. There is no one to be held responsible if the person had no choice. Thus, the human systems of law and order are merely illusions — as is the apparent drive for happiness or attaining one’s goals. All such pursuits are appearances that are bound to happen or that happen by chance. The appearance of choice is an illusion. There is no reason for living.

The nullification of responsibility may seem glum to some and a relief to others. But it hardly matters as it either seems that way due to chance, or it was bound to happen.

There is no wrongness or rightness in the Objective Theories. There is only isness.

In the Objective Theories, there is no real difference between a human, an animal and a well-crafted robot. Artificial intelligence is within reach.

The physical universe is composed of space, energy, matter and time. Everything within it is governed by its laws, whether the laws allow for random events or not. Therefore, in order for free will to exist, it cannot be governed by the laws of the physical universe.

The power of choice must at least in part be separate from the physical universe in some way. And only if it can potentially be completely separate can it potentially be fully free. Free implies free from space, energy, matter and time. It does not suggest that free will is somehow physically located outside the universe as that would still subject the will to physical laws and hence it would not be free.

Read the rest of the article.

98 thoughts on “Free Will

  1. “”””The physical universe is composed of space, energy, matter and time. Everything within it is governed by its laws, whether the laws allow for random events or not. Therefore, in order for free will to exist, it cannot be governed by the laws of the physical universe.
    The power of choice must at least in part be separate from the physical universe in some way. And only if it can potentially be completely separate can it potentially be fully free. Free implies free from space, energy, matter and time. It does not suggest that free will is somehow physically located outside the universe as that would still subject the will to physical laws and hence it would not be free.””
    Right…. and where is no time, space, matter=energy exist: one do not need…. want or think or know of such a consideration as having anything which includes ‘’’free will’’…since ’’one’’ do not exist either…. As a being, a unit… or whatever other thoughts are connected with self or I.
    There is a bit more to this….. but….. who would comprehend it?

    .

    1. Hi Elizabeth. You must remember that some of us are still at the level of wanting to be where there does exist time, space, matter and energy, and to play the game of creating effects with – and as a result of – our own free will. 🙂

      On the subject of “one” not existing, I for one am interested in “a bit more to this”. You are certainly not alone in that viewpoint – more and more people are coming to it being that way. I think Geir himself is leaning in that direction, if I’m not mistaken, and his theories in the article do not exclude the idea.

      1. “””Hi Elizabeth. You must remember that some of us are still at the level of wanting to be where there does exist time, space, matter and energy, and to play the game of creating effects with – and as a result of – our own free will. ”””
        I don’t buy the above from one second… you have bought it because you don’t have the FREE WILL… So you settle for what you have and made yourself believe that is what you want, you are having what you are having and it by choice…. Hogwash….
        Marildi if you truly would have a choice….having the human concepts, live by them and call those game conditions and living your life from birth identify=ing with that robot… as life your life…. Or to be totally separated from those concepts and have different, totally different view point what it is like being without such a consideration…. Well, I bet you all the riches one ever can have all what is dear to you… you would not choose that game you play now and say you doing it by FREE WILL….
        Now, Marildi… I will never ever buy or agree to such on outlandish statement you made for one second that there is FREE WILL while one is playing the game of human life… getting up in the morning… washing feeding the body… the usual routine…. Plus, responding to communication which originates from pure stimulation with equal stimulated energy =knowledge pulled out of the stored energy mass=BANK….
        You know when I would believe you have a FREE WILL? First go out… erase all the MEST considerations which are the behavior… believes you have which should include the consideration what is FREE WILL, THAN AND THAN go back and start the game of having a body-robot and partake in the game once more….
        You would have than a FREE WILL exercised… not until than…
        On the ”bit more” you have no idea-reality what i was thinking of.

        1. You are completely right about how much we are conditioned and influenced by the physical universe, our culture, etc. – it’s the major, major part of existence! However, just as Geir explains in the article – and you yourself have said this – even the physical universe influence on us was originally a matter of our own agreement to it. In other words – we had to have free will in order to decide to go into agreement, and we did so mainly because we wanted to play a game. Those “will-ful” agreements we made show that at least the basic potential for free will is of our nature.

          If you read the rest of the article you may come to see that there are actually logical reasons and a strong argument that at least a certain amount of free will choice still exists. You yourself have talked about postulates and how they will all eventually come about. The article makes the exact same point – that our decisions or postulates or considerations (basically all the same) create at least some tiny change toward what we intend.

          And by the way, you are one of the best examples of the existence of free will – I mean even before you achieved the high levels you have from your auditing. It was YOU who chose/decided to do that. I simply cannot see it as a 100% conditioned, stimulus-response action on your part with no slight decision or will or power of your own involved.

          But I do actually duplicate your utter frustration at not being able to get others to understand what you know, your great certainty that being exterior to the physical universe far surpasses playing the game of it. Again though, most people are not to that point, where it is real enough for them to go in that direction.

          You’re right that I have no idea what you were thinking about on the “bit more”. That was why I asked. 🙂

          1. Marildi… old friend, my other half…I love you to pieces….
            I had a session today.. it was mind boggling…. My mind still can be boggled it seems… If Geir and I would be in better communication well… I would love to share some information… to bad, but what the hell..
            By the way have you ever seen what is HOGWASH? I bet you have not.. it is boiled potato.. of course the water in which the potato was boiled is kept and mixed with ground corn or other grain and left over from the table… my father fed this to a big which we had once.. humans eat less nurturing food when they eat a pizza, or other food, like cake.. etc…

            1. Always wonderful to receive your huge flow of affinity. Much love back!

              And that’s true, I’ve never seen hogwash. But thanks for the recipe. 😀

          2. Frustration, my dear???… I have looked up the word: hindrance, stoppage, blocked… foiling… not accepted.. Plus: Ignored, Not-ised, snubbed, ridiculed, lough at, called all sorts of names in privet email, put down as uneducated, bad mannered.. evil…and many occasion not acknowledged period… but my dear friend…. Every time that happened I have gained.. Into session I went and confronted…. With a win I have come out…
            But yes… I have knowledge which I gained I would have loved to share… Tell me: just how many people know on this planet what caused solidity what makes things solid and this is not a theory I have read some place but I have found out through experience… in session…. I wanted to share because at this “level” as you call it that is a natural action… but there is more than one way to skin the cat or rabbit [ I have seen my father do that on many occasion] The spiritual Universe is where the beings don’t have the body therefor they are very perceptive, aware…. Cognition… echoes through the spiritual universe…. so my cognitions have not fallen on deaf ears…

            1. Elizabeth: “Cognition… echoes through the spiritual universe…. so my cognitions have not fallen on deaf ears…”

              I’m so, so glad about that. 🙂

            2. Agree and happy that our postulates, cognitions and are recognized in the spiritual universe. As Marildi says “so glad about that” too.

  2. This article is so well worth reading. It’s much more clear to me now that the universe is not – and cannot be – strictly pre-determined. We truly can influence our own fate – especially when we know we can! I always had the sense that this was true but now I have some logic and reasoning, even from a mathematical or scientific standpoint, to support it and give me more certainty and confidence about it. My view of existence in the universe is not as literal (which I hadn’t even thought of that way) – it feels more conceptual.

    Bless you Geir, for your fabulous and one-of-a-kind ability to communicate.

  3. Marildi.Elizabeth: “Cognition… echoes through the spiritual universe…. so my cognitions have not fallen on deaf ears…”

    I’m so, so glad about that.

    Marildi, everything we know is known in every part of the universe, not only my cognitions but every cognition, every cognition one have is cognate on by others too. So how many million-billion who had they grades audited, went clear had the OT levels soloed on… has cognitions? Look around this planet and see the changes around you… the new generation, the children are born with incredible OT abilities… There is so much more to this…

    1. Geir: I think you would like Tom Campbell’s My Big TOE (Theory of Everything)

      Elizabeth: I would like to read your blog but it is marked private. Have you written about the specific processes you use to solo?

      1. I have writen down everything in the blog what i have done.. there are others there who fallow the Tech, it is not on alteration of LRH.. It is his.. not mine.. but I use it in different order.-the auditing questions…
        I know of Toms work I have read and listen to some of it few weeks back.
        I will open the blog for you and if you have any question emal me. endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com

      2. Hi freebeeing. I have Tom’s book although I haven’t read much of it yet. But I’ve watched hours of his video lectures and think very highly of him.

        Have you read Geir’s full article “On Will” that he gives links to above? I am curious how you would compare his theories to Tom’s. Like me, you would probably see some amazing similarites but expressed in different metaphors (as Tom would put it :)). Actually, you probably already do as you say you think Geir would like his book.

    2. I am interested Mrs.Elizabeth what was your biggest cognition in your entire life. What is that cognition? 🙂

  4. Just taking the first part of the article to respond. Free choice, free will. What’s free anyway? Kidding. To take a simple approach since I consider my self of a simple nature. One example I can think about is do you use free will or choice when you feed your body? Is your body telling you what it wants and you have the choice to listen or ignore. Does one have free will to eat something by choice because of the good effects it causes, knowing it may be good or bad effect in the long run? Does it really matter? I believe balance is necessary in free will and choice and we don’t live alone, tho our bodies die alone and we go on to whatever will we have. Guess belief come in also.
    I’m using my free will right now and end off as I am the boss. Till later….

  5. There might be room in this discussion to consider the idea that the universe might be constructed differently than strictly cause & effect; other than free will or determinism? and Prime Mover Unmoved?

    The fundamental Christian vs the born again evolutionist love the heat of arguing their ideas and believe in doing so that they have covered all of the only two possibilities. Either man came from apes or the Garden of Eden. But does that cover it?

    Each new evolution of knowledge changes man’s paradigm for how he views himself and his relationship to his world. Maybe there is yet a ways to go philosophically as well? Maybe there is more to reality than “free will and/or/both determinism?”

    I love this article of Geir’s. It was my introduction to his wonderful mind and welcoming spirit. And in that spirit, maybe we could put our minds to work taking up the purpose of this article and actually discuss the points that it lays out and explore.

    For instance, why can’t we logically put this argument to rest with a proof and falsification? The idea that we can only have an opinion about these two determinisms without knowing smacks of paradox and that makes my senses tingle and wonder if there is a counterintuitive question which needs to be asked?

      1. From Aristotle:

        “It is clear then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time, outside the heaven. Hence whatever is there, is of such a nature as not to occupy any place, nor does time age it; nor is there any change in any of the things which lie beyond the outermost motion; they continue through their entire duration unalterable and unmodified, living the best and most self sufficient of lives… From [the fulfilment of the whole heaven] derive the being and life which other things, some more or less articulately but other feebly, enjoy.”[11]

        — Aristotle, De Caelo, I.9, 279 a17–30

        It came from the concept that for every effect there must be a cause. If you trace backwards from cause, always seeking the earlier cause, eventually you will reach a point where there isn’t an earlier cause. That’s where the idea of prime mover unmoved came from.

        1. Maria,, thank you….good of you to answer.. the information is welcome…Very interesting. Very….
          I understand what he talks about.. Totally…. First time I have experienced being outside of the Universe, seeing it from the distance as a tiny pint point of light I was in awe… later again when a different cognition taken me there again I understood more about the size of the Physical Universe but I was pulled back had no choice.
          Last time when it has happened I understood the meaning of being outside and recognized that was the cognition itself: that the Physical Universe is so tiny, so puny in importance, position, in reality is nil in comparisons what is outside.
          I can’t describe the sensation as experienced than because there is no word for that.
          The part of the cognition was that one can only remain outside of the Physical Universe if one gives up all considerations- all beingness-existence as it is known here in the MEST which includes knowledge in other word any creation; of course knowledge is the only creation one really has, the awareness.
          I had that time the choice to remain or come back and resume my work.. The temptation was not strong enough to remain [ because ” I had the choice” therefore I still had considerations, had attention on MEST] and because of that I realized the adventure was not over yet, since I have not erased all thoughts opinions beliefs images completely, I was not free.
          Now I known that first glimpse of the true Heaven was just the promise what is to be without all the considerations.
          You see Maria, I recognize that the first glimpse- first reality, first cognition on any subject-item is just that: one not really has attained that state in pure form but that first glimpse …first cognition …first reality … “Is the regained awareness …consciousness … knowledge of that states existence”. The Wakefulness.

          1. Elizabeth; I really would like your reality and answer to a few questions that pops to mind:

            When you sere outside the physical universe looking at it like tiny point of light – how far was the distance to that point of light?

            What else was there where you were?

            1. There is no concept of distance since there are no other object. Therefore no movement only the that very faint pin point of light, the thought of having size, distance has come later when the awareness come about.
              First I was this, myself this darkness but not real dark as here on Earth [as in the dark room] since darkness here on earth is measured-compared to two existing item light and dark: The plus and minus.
              I was aware of totality.. completeness… had no thoughts, that completeness can’t be described.. no matter how I would try. The body was gone..
              I could not say I am because I was not anything, than I become AWARE of being AWARE in that awareness made me search what was there beside the completeness, and then I see that tiny faint point, I have no idea how long I was wondering what that minute light could be but I was wondering [ that wondering is the awareness- wakening] and then it has downed on me… The Physical Universe!!!!!!!!!!!! Huge surge of energy the blow down, that shock, that reality, that awareness brought back the avalanche of other thoughts and I was back among the self-created environment.
              There were other time when I have seen the first light created which was the beginning of the Physical Universe..
              If you want to ask other question. I do have the answer.. since any question takes me into that incident no matter where or what that incident is..

            2. More to the recall, there were communication but not in word or image form, that I put there myself as in interpretation for myself what has happened. There are other universes totally different reality which one only can be the part of if one gives up The Physical Universe: since in their reality the Physical Universe is oh… how was that communication…. something so bad oh… low form, despicable, a contagious malady. The reason one need to leave all behind [the thought-consideration] because it is an illness and contaminates. I know the same reality exist even in the Physical Universe and I am the believer in it… I am working on reversing that ailment that is my destiny. I am very much aware of that… because of that I have the reality how the reversing works-spreads and its final out come.

            3. Elizabeth, I don’t want to butt in on your comm cycle with Geir, but since he’s on the other side of the planet still snoozing, I’ll just say for now that these are wonderful posts. You have incredible first-hand knowledge of existence and it is very enlightening. Thank you for sharing it!

            4. so what do you think? I TOO would like to hear what You think of this experience… The information i have given you is a fist hand experience…. not received by reading…your reality please on it.. or what you can add too it…..i am too interested of cource!

            5. To bad that you dont have more info, I would love to know more.
              I met one person at ST Hill who had once experience being out side but she only had a that one time experience.
              thank

            6. One more for the road.. What you think?
              Someone just emailed me and said not to close my blog since my posting the cognition are ‘’Wonderful’’
              That remark has gotten me thinking, what is wonderful about cognition? I know just how wonderful they are and We all know what the cognitions are and how they work, what really happens in the session and the very reason they end the sessions..
              But what is a CIGNITION it SELF as an item-element a creation?
              Beautiful reality-realization- cognition I have here: Cognitions content is an absolutely unique creation in the ENTIRE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE!!
              There is not one like it.. It is uniquely- exclusively entirely belongs to the originator- creator and it can’t be copied by anyone else… The cognition do not stem out of any other energy flow-creation it is not a part of re-stimulation and because its birth this CREATION is solely created out of FREE WILL!!!!!!!!!!
              Bloody Hell, I been wondering wracking my poor ‘’brain’’ what is “FREE Will” which is not connected and created out from THE MEST…

            7. Elizabeth, I’m sure you can guess how much I love your cog! And this is the perfect thread to post it on. It completely supports what Geir is saying in his article “On Will”. If you have only read the above blog post about it, that just gives the first part of the article. To read it in full go to the link he gives.

              One key thing discussed in the article is how the power of choice is potentially fully free although it appears that there are varying degrees of it and of free will. The reason for that has to do with another favorite subject of yours – agreements and considerations. 😉 Looks this is something the two of you have the same reality on. And me too! 🙂

            8. Marildi you bad person.. you know by now i dont read through all the posting… but because you say i should, i will.
              You see what happens that while I am reading the post ONE CONCEPT gets my attaintion and that could be at the very behinning like it was with the Free Will and than I run with that on my own… That single thought becomes the material for the session THE ITEM..
              Bloody Hell there is a mosquito in here, the trumpets are sounding the hounds are out and I am off to the hunt..!!!! wish me luck….!

    1. Chris, in his article Geir talks about hard determinism as being only one of the physical theories and I assume does so as an obvious contrast to a theory of free will. But as I’m sure you know, there are quite a few variations of both views – many of which are discussed on the informationphilosopher.com site, along with the “information philosopher’s” own view, which he pretty convincingly claims to reconcile “even the hardest determinists and extreme libertarians on the problem of free will.” ( http://www.informationphilosopher.com/tutorials/free_will/ )

      And btw, I would say that Tom Campbell’s theory is quite similar to Bob Doyle’s (he’s the “information philosopher”) and both back up their theories with what they consider proven data. Tom’s is mainly paranormal research using scientific protocol (being grounded in physics) and bob Doyle cites all manner of scientific research as the basis of his theory. It seems like the just kind of thing you’re looking for, if I read you right.

      You mentioned exploring other points that Geir lays out. Anything particular in mind?

  6. Gene,
    Hawkings and others must of missed the last century of Science.

    1. You can bet on that… Maybe not that they missed something but could it be that the answers cannot be found though scientific methodical learning after all? Only Scientist do have that “assumption” the believe in that idea –thought- concept and have the agreement on that and they holds the key to understand the answers of Universe…
      I don’t thinks so…

  7. Perhaps I should be more explicit.

    Kurt Godel showed that in any logical system – illogic can be created. Max Planck came up with quanta theory, which proves out and does not obey the laws of newtonian physics. Principa Mathematica and the idea that if we just measured everything we would have it taped, was disproven. Heisenberg showed we can’t know both position and momentum.

    Robert Pirsig in the Art of Motorcycle maintence argues this well.

    A better view even is the a biologist who in the Scientific American Series on basic sciences explained in the first book they published the whole issue of nature versus nuture was a wrong way to even approach it.

    the present was formed by a huge number of interacting decisions made by the people and beings involved and the future will be created in the same way.

    No ones future is written.

    The future is unbounded and infinite. We make it up as we go along.

    The only scheme for the physical universe is to provide an aesthetic place to interact with the toys you abandonded in earlier games, and to one day put your toys away, and play new games.

    We always have an infinite number of choices about what can be done.

    We are only bound by Q1 and Q2. All else is arbitrary, and changeable.

    DMSMH states that a clears imagination is unbounded.

    Doc

    1. Doc….”The future is unbounded and infinite. We make it up as we go along.”
      Elizabeth, there is no such as “future” you are right on that, since to believe in ”future” and have that concept thought idea assumption consideration is one of the “toys” you have mentioned above.
      Toys are the words we play with like Lego, we build concepts and that is the make believe a game and that game is real, in fact it is an assumption only.
      Since there is no past than and no future because of that: as we go along we only have that fraction of the moment the mock up created and experienced and that instant is “NOW” .
      Even the thought “infinite” is a concept, on assumption only same as the rest.
      We want to “Believe” that we live for ever, so we have created a concept collected lots of agreements from those “the well learned” since there is the assumption that they know it all: so it must be true!!!!!!!!!! Assumption again…
      DOC: “the present was formed by a huge number of interacting decisions made by the people and beings involved and the future will be created in the same way.”
      Elizabeth: the above sentence is contradictory with other concepts you have written in your posting.
      DOC: “ We always have an infinite number of choices about what can be done.”
      Elizabeth, we can debate that.

      1. E, I get that you may not agree with “Doc” that “the present was formed by a huge number of interacting decisions made by the people and beings involved and the future will be created in the same way.”

        He used the word “decisions” and I’m reminded of your recent cog to do with cognitions being self-determined creations and that they are in fact the way that free will is expressed (correct me if I haven’t worded that right). I was thinking about it and to me a cognition is actually a type of decision about something. It’s an “Aha!” moment, a realization that is basically a decision – in other words. what the person has now decided, about whatever.

        Now, a postulate is a decision too, and since it is a self-created one (by definition) then I would say that it is also an expression of free will. As I said, I wasn’t sure whether you were in disagreement with the idea that the present was formed by interacting decisions, but you yourself have said that beings created the universe and no longer realize that they did – and do. So I would be surprised if you do disagree with Doc’s statement. What do you say?

        1. Marildi, I re-read what you have written list 6 times you are right but You have taken only partly out of what i was refering to:
          “”the present was formed by a huge number of interacting decisions made by the people and beings involved and the future will be created in the same way.

          No ones future is written.

          The future is unbounded and infinite. We make it up as we go along.”””

          you are right cognition can be named as ” decision” same thing, but first one needs to clear away as-is all existing reality one has in order to have that ”’free will” that decision… before one reaches that state-reality.
          Postulate as in “now” when one is still sitting in the midle of MEST reality is not out of the ‘Free Will, but they are born out of stimulation.
          Postulating is stricktly, human way of thinking: believing if I ”wish” for something it will happen and that “wish” usually one wants to materialize in solid forms. With that the illusion of future is created?
          Meanwhile one already has achieved that ”wish-postulate”.
          if this is not you are asking me than please explain?

          1. Right you are. Cognition is LRH’s own term and he says that a cognition is “as-ising aberration with a realization about life”. So yes,there does need to be a “clearing away” first – that’s part of the definition.

            However, you seem to be defining “postulate” differently than LRH did (and here again, it is actually his term). There definitely are other-determined decisions too – for the most part! But do you not agree that there is such a thing as a self-determined decision? If you don’t, then you must not believe in postulates but only other-determined “decisions” – which we can’t really call postulates.

            However, I recall you once said that every postulate made will come about sooner or later, once the aberrations are cleared away. So in that sense, they do determine the future, don’t they? 🙂

            1. Pussy cat, the postulate to be free was not made now, just it seems like it was, since one entered in the church. once again one postulated confirmed the old.. Those postulates has been there since who know when, ”To be free”” what ever.
              The MEST will vanish, for some soona and for others, well, more lessons needed in order to realize they want more than MEST.
              By now you know that LRH and I, we have not much in common.
              What is ”other-determined decision too?”

        2. I been thinking Cognition =realization is not the same as decision;
          Cognition: thought reasoning, understanding, perception, awareness,
          Realization: Consciousness’s, recognition, insight, grasp,
          Decision: choice, conclusion, judgement, resolution, ruling, selection, result.
          So we can split hair but a decision will not erase any mass, no matter how one try to do that…decision is choice a selection.

          1. Okay, right. A decision will not erase any mass – but it can supercede mass, IMHO.

            Gotta run but – to be continued. 😉

            1. Marildi, decision is making on choice, and Supersedes is: succeeds, replaces, overtakes, supplants, deposes, outs. But never erases. , Just one energy mass is replaces by a different one.

            2. Marildi,[i cant find the right place to put this]
              Marildi it is not my aim to make wrong, I write my reality same as you… as you said my favorite words are considerations and agreements, Silvis in her blog simply states calls the considerations and agreements as lies, lies and more lies and No matter what you believe it is a lie. That is her horse she rides an.
              I just looked up the definition of lies [I am not teaching any one here English, not for one second, it is for me, helping to compose.]
              Lie-lies: deceits, falsehood, fabrication, deception, dishonesty, pretence,
              I could add few more horses to my stable like; Suppositions, Guesses, Assumption, Theory, Concept, Notion, Impression and retire Consideration.
              What is your “Thought” on the matter?

            3. Elizabeth, my viewpoint is that those other words may be conveying the concept too but the horses in your stable will do just fine. 🙂

              To answer your earlier questions:

              IMHO means “In My Humble Opinion”.

              “Other determined” means that someone or something else is giving the person orders or directions. It contrasts with self-determinism, which means that the person has the ability to direct himself and determine something from his own viewpoint. (These are the tech dictionary definitions put in my own words.)

            4. Thanks for the info… here is a comment on yours to Freebeing.
              I wonder who will find that Magic Wand which will erase billions of energy masses all randomly piled up, experienced and one do not know their origin.
              There is acres of technology under the belt of the good auditor out there, up to CL 12 and those auditors truly believe they know it all have it all but not one of them so far has come up with a better solution and these auditors sure know great deal about the mind and the workings of the auditing cycles.[ just how many of these auditor use auditing and continue self-soloing? Not many, but they sure know how to throw stones.]
              And no other persons out there beside LRH who has compiled anything better than his auditing tech.
              You don’t like the idea of chipping away and you believe that OT 7 is something so special, please look around you and investigate just what kind of life they lead just how better they are off than any other persons out there.
              I know a few full OT 7’s and their life is not a picnic.
              The reason, my belief: why you don’t believe in auditing or not quiet, because you did not have enough gains, same as other ex-members out there. That is the reason you claim to be satisfied.
              That chipping away at the Physical Universe and examining its content is the paramount exploration-assessment one can experience. There is nothing like that existing in the whole Universe, so I ask is there a value having such on adventure? Doing something new, never ever been done before out of one’s own free will?
              By the way in your above comment you have listed all the stops, the very reasons why you CANT continue, if those would be erased…. well……..
              PS, do you know any other person who has achieved what I have?
              The achievements value is not established because it has not done before therefore can’t be compared to a similar –comparable – equal experience and have on conclusion deduction agreement and that have come to the final judgement by others that is good or bad, great or simply phenomenal.
              Usually the co established agreement gives the value therefore my achievement has no value in the eyes of others. 
              To achieve full OT 7 was something millions believe in had reality of some kind and because of that wanted, but go beyond and erase the Physical Universe: what is? Only a singular reality.

      2. Elizabeth, I agree with Richard Bach in “There’s no such place as far away” – there is no there, and there isn’t any when, it’s all just here and now, and since we don’t really exist, and are undefined, we aren’t actually bounded by anything. And it’s difficult to talk about unbounded things since words are definitional – they are bounded. The classic problem of Zen or the Tao.

        When we create the games we play, and the pieces and we do not put them away when we are done it causes consequences for us here and now. Whether it’s in this universe or any other universe or place we create to play or interact together.

        Present time can have a varying width but I generally agree that we usually perceive only a short now. And there is usually a lot a machinery usually between us and the thing we have created or agreed to.
        I agree that infinite is itself a concept, it is created and bounded and in fact in mathematics, a created tool of modeling what is, there is sets of infinities of different properties.

        I prefer transfinite meaning beyond all bounds, out of all boxes. Unboxed, unbounded.

        I don’t think we live forever. I don’t think basically we don’t live at all, it’;s an illusion, part of space and time. I don’t really think we exist in any meaningful sense. But there does seem to be recognizable individuality and that is true whether one is creating or not, and using a viewpoint or dimension points or not.

        Whatever we really ‘are’ ‘here’ and ‘now’ is created together by interacting with each other. Including whatever may be still there from old patterns.

        I’m not sure how you have a debate about infinite choices. You have no ability to restrict in any way what I can ultimately create, and I don’t have that power over you or anyone else either.

        That’s my truth – that’s what I see.

        It’s very nice to ‘see’ you, all that you are. Please keep it up.

        Someone once said we are the Sea Otters of the Universes.

        I should point out that my father is a minister, and I grew looking very closely at the difference between philosophy and practice. And how closely someone acted relative to what they said.

        The best way to predict the future is to create it.

        1. James, since your English is what mine is not, I need to re-read what you written few times..
          I am pleased that I have confronted you in my comments since now I know what is your real reality.. You see, I felt something was missing, not right when I was reading your first comments it was sort of superficial..
          Since what I read hold no importance but what I pick up: I do connect to that beings space-energy and experience that being in totality.. You have given me a gift.
          Thank you for the experience. I am what you are.

        2. PS, ” It’s very nice to ‘see’ you, all that you are. Please keep it up.”
          You do not know me at all, nothing about my abilities to created and i dont have a identety,nothing here my dear, nothing at all, and keep up with what? You left leaving behind a puzzle…
          I guess i can live with that since i been solving nothing but puzzles in the from of what is the Universe [my creation of course] since 73.

        3. James i post here because the other sight holds so many comments that my computer is too slowed down by them.

          James Hello, I was electrified [ that word is a good description of an creation-experience] when I read your answer yesterday, since I have been wondering is there somebody beside me who has doing the same as I do, walking the path and never wavering and who has one goal: to know.[ dedicating one life every waking moment and chipping away at the MEST]
          Yes things do change continually I too have noticed when I go back to them, immeasurable changes occurred since I started to post little over a year in Gear blog.[ I can write better too, express my reality.]
          And I don’t waver from my realities either, what I know and that is, I don’t compromise on that..
          I too blow incoming whatever by inspection and for other items-stimulation I search for, one of the reasons for posting and having my blog too. You have no idea just what it can steer up when one is not believed, invalidated and heavily evaluated all that is great confrontation material, gets huge wins.
          Here is the session: I am very interested knowing about darkness since so far I have had many sessions exploring what is, and I have found we have far greater amount of activities in the so called darkness than in light. In fact, my reality, in darkness one lives as truly a spiritual when out in the universe without the body and all the trimming which goes with it:MEST.
          I have had sessions under all condition including getting drunk could hardly stand was close to passing out on purpose 4 nights in the row in order to have a firsthand experience under the altered condition caused by alcohol and trust me that is the right time to audit out those effects.
          The fallowing days I had to confront different stimulation, you see I don’t drink at all. Those sessions were the blast…. Huge wins.
          So you can see, I do anything to have a session. Yesterday I got into the bath tub of hot water, but first closed off and barred out all lights. In pitch dark I was floating. You see, in the dark I can see space, the stars, comets as they whizzing by but I started the session not just to see the show but to have more reality on why we keep away, and why we are limiting ourselves “living” in the light.[ oh, I know why, but one gains in each session different side to that reality]
          Well the cognitions rolled in but they too vanished by now.
          What I have seen is what happens what is the activities in ‘’space’’. First I “see” the billions of stars and as I let go of everything here I start to see the flashes of lights, rolling gas masses, I believe one was the Milky Way, [ not very big at all] funnels of energy as they speed and their speed pulls in the particles, comet whizzing by and one of them with huge flash exploding, some of the others just disappeared burned up from the friction. I have seen whirling huge masses, colored energy of wide-ranging formation, and magnificence splendour in action.
          One emerald green apparition was like: from a pinpoint of nothing fanned in cone shape a brilliant translucent green as it died away the sparkles which must have been huge turned deep ruby red and they were countless in numbers, have become asteroids and have disappeared in the depth of darkness.
          Of course everything was in colors. There were continual movements, fast and all-out. I just can’t write down all of them, some stayed with me because of their striking coloring some because their unique shapes.
          One was on incredible sight; it held me there in awe. A gas formation of a cobra on ,apparition of the neck extended vertically and the head was in horizontal position from the two fangs poured out-down energy the color of hot lava and was forming puddle front of the cobra which was moving started to spin sluggishly, as I was looking at this phenomenon I was wondering what was that occurring, of course when one asks a question one gets on answer.
          I was witnessing the birth of the planet as it was forming out of different particles. Also seeing the apparition of the cobra shape re-confirmed that knowledge that nothing new here on this planet every shape every item here has their origin some other someplace.
          As I was experiencing this vastness, where the activities are fast and the fury of the moving energy is immense, here where “time” is in existence, or just believed it exist nothing really happens in one hour, but the water cools off, the skin gets wrinkly soaking to long.
          James, thanks for listening, now if your socks was not blown off it was more likely because you were not wearing any… so it was you fault, might as well you take responsibility for something in this universe, you see I don’t have any because I am too low tone. Hehehe.. Tone? I did not see any of that floating about must have been exploded, now that explosion had to be very tiny…
          I would love to experience your wins if you care to share them of course.

        4. Doc: “The best way to predict the future is to create it.”
          Elizabeth: And the best way to avoid something bad before it come into ones space is to listen to one’s first impression and fallow that. I was right.
          I used to live in Winnipeg Manitoba where the winds forever blows and the summer winds are especially hot…..

      1. Hi Tor Ivar!

        “Doc” is referring to something in Scientology called “The Q’s” (or “Prelogics”). It is a set of 7 principles that LRH set forth as “the level from which we are now viewing, which is a common denominator to all experience which we can now view – the highest level from which we’re operating”. (Scn dictionary) Here are Q1 and Q2:

        “Q1 – Self-determinism is the common denominator of all life impulses.”

        “Q2 – Definition of Self-determinism: the ability to locate in space and time, energy and matter, also the ability to create space and time in which to locate energy and matter.”

        Btw, I thought of you when I read the recently-published book called “What is Wrong with Scientology?” I think it would answer almost all of your questions about what Scientology was originally, and how over the years it got twisted from something very beneficial into something very harmful. If you want to get more info on it, go to http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/ and click on the book cover. On that same page there is also a short an interview you can listen to that is a good introduction too: click on “INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL SMERCONISH”.

        Then let me know what you think! 🙂

    2. “We always have an infinite number of choices about what can be done.”

      Don’t you wish! Given the current state of being here on this planet, that is humming into the winds of a hurricane and believing it will change course. Our “free will” is uber restricted. Want a simple example? Decide to stop breathing. Just hold your breath and see how long you can exercise your “free will” in this regard.

      Our choices are utterly circumscribed by our existing considerations. Can I choose to float to the supermarket rather than get in the car and drive there? Nope. Damn, infinite choice – 1. And so it goes. We are caught in a sticky spider’s web of our own construction. Only when one has examined and dissolved every consideration one holds will one again have an infinite number of choices available to oneself. And then there is the matter of everyone else’s considerations. In this universe I don’t think infinite choice will ever be available. In your own universe, yes, that is until you invite in some other beings to play 🙂

      1. I agree that our choices are utterly circumscribed, but what is the source of that circumscription? If you read Geir’s article, his answer is that we are ourselves are the source of it and in that sense our apparently limited degree of free will is actually of our own doing – our own prior choices of our own free will. Potentially there is unlimited free will. Did you read the article, btw?

      2. Oops, looks like I didn’t read the full comment on the email. It seems you are saying the same thing as I just commented.

      3. So you examine everything that’s created, and you regain the power of everything that you are creating, and you take responsibility for it again, and you can now create whatever you want instead. There are some agreed upon rules for this larger playing field, but not as many as you might think.

        Of course, infinite potential choices are available in this universe, it’s not even that complex of one. One just has to examine and look at what you are actually creating right here and now.

        You can get better and faster at looking at that. There are ways to do that.

        You can even get so fast and so good that you can look at every single individuals mocked up creations, track, opinions, and machinery all at the same time, and influence all of it.

        Like everything else that’s just an ability. You just have to be willing to demonstrate it.

        You can sing with every single ‘space’ in all the unverses all at the same time.

        We are really creating all of this together. You just have to come up and see that again, and then you can help change the now in a different direction. I don’t just mean this universe. I mean all that is created.

    3. James, all what I have learned-read this life span is gone, has been erased. The Immediate memory which extends this bodies life span of 72 years was as-ised, I don’t have reality left on what others have and those shared experiences with other too vanished.
      I have very little reality who is who: the names and what goes with those names. I truly have to create each step in order to have- experience and that is “now”.
      Dont think for one moment I have a loss, no, I just had to re-adjust the “how” what ever I still do around the body, since the body I use as a tool and it still has its usefulness.

  8. Ah the morass in which we slog about. Do we have free will? You can find out for yourself. Pick up the cans. Explore your existence. The answers are there. All this pondering… useless spinning in a very tight circle. Yes, there is free will. Rahhh – prove it!!! they scream. I laugh. How free is your free will? How can you increase it? That is a more interesting pursuit. So many Scios have given up their dream of total freedom, they’ve been betrayed by a devil in sheep’s clothing, but while trapping us the tools for undoing the trap were also provided. There IS a path. It has no length, no breadth. It is within you. Pick up the cans, audit out all the lies. Then you will know. Nothing else will give you certainty. No mathematical formula or carefully crafted philosophy will ever suffice, Only you can find the truth. Will you do the work?

    1. Well, well, 🙂 Blow me to Bermuda! [ The Wizard Merlin said that in the movie Sword in the Stone expesring ”wonder”.]
      Folks here is a MAN who has read every article in my blog which is 185 in number in the last few days since he asked me to open it up.
      He is a Solo auditor and he wants to be crazy like me, now that too is a OT achievement no doubt. [ he wanted to know how I did it and stepped out of the Universe that is.]
      I am more than pleased in fact trilled that he too have decided to take the Physical Universe apart piece by piece and with confrontation as -is ing the concepts-believes that the bloody thing is solid and real.
      Have a wonderful adventure!!!!!!!! 🙂

  9. haha, yes Elizabeth, I just today finished reading every post in your blog. What an amazing gift. To find that that devil Hubbard actually had the means all along to make OTs but even he could not see it (or it didn’t suit his purpose), LOL, The joke’s on him! One day soon we will have a nice cup of stardust tea together.

    1. 🙂 and any time!
      He did not see it, if he would have, he would not drop the body in the way he has and as a ”’being” he has been In the clutches of fear, illnesses, paranoid in hiding, plus sitting in other dozens of re-stimulations.

  10. I too had an experience of being outside the phys universe and seeing it as like we see a star in the sky. This was recalled in a session. In this experience I was not alone, others were also there with me, although in no “visible” form. On inspection of this “star” I realized it was this MEST universe. I also saw that the entire state of the universe from its moment of creation was available and could be entered at any point in its time-stream. As to its “distance” from “me” it seemed at first like I said, like looking at a star in the sky, yet this sky was an emptiness, so it is not an exact description. There was no concept of distance as far as taking a closer look, even though I use the word closer. Ha, how limited words are. No movement was involved in bringing it “closer” for inspection. A decision to be inside at the same time I had left it, and back inside I was.

    Perhaps it is like Ken Ogger describes in his cosmology; back when beings each had their own universe and gateway or entry points were made and arranged that looked like stars in a night sky.

    Universes “inside” of universes. Inside is really the wrong concept though.

  11. Sounds like you are referring to what LRH described as “Home Universe”, in History of Man.

    Great post, btw. I very much appreciate hearing about someone’s direct experience, and since what you wrote is basically the same as Elizabeth’s direct experience – the corroboration makes it even more interesting. Thank you!

  12. YW marildi. Yes, home universe. I think Ken Ogger has a more complete cosmology than LRH’s HOM as far as the progression of universes along the time track of theta, from what he (Ogger) was able to piece together from his own sessions.

    Glad that corroboration makes it more interesting for you. IMO, it’s exceedingly more interesting to experience it for oneself 🙂

    Many dismiss Ken’s writings because he was only exploring his own case, they want thousands of case histories. How many case histories do you think LRH had for writing HOM? Hehe, very few, maybe just one – his son Nibs’.

    Nobody wants to go looking for themselves. Oh no, too dangerous! Might mess up my case. LOL, that’s a lovely little lie given to us by LRH himself. If you did that then you wouldn’t need to pay his orgs for the priviledge. And talk about screwing up peoples cases! LOL, no safety in the Co$ in that regard I assure you. If one takes a proper approach to one’s mind then one can’t get in serious trouble. And let me put this forward: if one does go mad doing so, they certainly were likely to do so anyway. If you address what the being wants to address and don’t push them into things then they’ll do just fine so long as you get them through whatever they get into and don’t leave them in the middle of something.

    Why won’t people take their case into their own hands and go free?

    1. They are lacking in courage.
    2. They think it is too complex
    3. Failed purpose. They’ve been betrayed one too many times and are sitting in a loss.
    4. They haven’t the necessary skills and let 1,2 or 3 stop them from acquiring said skill.
    5. They are happy being meatballs, (forgive them father for they know not what they do)
    6. They don’t know there is a way.

    Free will is yours, If you’re experiencing a lack, it’s only because you’ve given it away willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly. If you would like to get it back, there is a way…

        1. freebeing; there is no need to diffend me there are only one reasons people dislike each other, and that is having overts galore toward that hated person.., nothing more please do accept that and think, look around in your universe and spot: who you dont like? 🙂

    1. I read Ogger’s cosmology a while back and thought it was really interesting about the succession of different universes on the theta track. Another enlightening read is Ouran’s “Ghost Danse”. But I’ve only read parts of both that and The Pilot.

      Thanks much for all the thoughts about going free. Very well written, too. But I would like to extend the list :D.

      My first item is a consideration I have that an efficient auditing route would have to be a more systematic one than what someone might “take into their own hands”. I know that Elizabeth has had phenomenal results with the principle of ARC, as it is indeed the basic anatomy of existence. But it has taken her most of her life and thousands and thousands of hours of auditing.

      Not only that but as you know Elizabeth started out her solo route as an old OT VII already, giant leaps ahead of many of us. For her, it may not have been like chipping away at a huge mountain with a rudimentary tool, even though it theoretically would get the job done for anybody – eventually. To me, however, there are other principles and discoveries about the mind that could and should be taken advantage of and utilized, so as to have the best, most A to B route – solo or otherwise.

      But I do believe there’s a lot of truth to “Any auditing is better than no auditing”. So I’ll anticipate your question and admit that right now I seem to have no reach for auditing. And I wouldn’t assume that it’s because of some unseen consideration or any of the items on your list. But regardless of that, here’s another item I would add to list: I believe in the need and importance of both sides of the Bridge – auditing and training.

      By training, I don’t necessarily mean just Scn training but knowledge in general. My idea is that not all the truth about existence is to be found in one’s own, personal experiential track. And this is where my dear Elizabeth and I differ. She doesn’t see much value in “someone else’s truth” (and what she considers to be nothing but “implants”), but I do. I like to put it in a figurative way – I didn’t invent the wheel, someone else did. So why should I try, or do I need, to reinvent it myself? And, just like the chipping-away kind of thing, it might be a very long runway for some of us to discover the deepest truths. I say we share the wealth of wisdom that already exists – because I agree with LRH that there is no monoply on it in any one person’s universe.

      And for those of us who like the physical universe game, there’s also the point LRH made about being “an OT who can fix the kid’s train”. So yes, I’m just a happy little meatball. But I look forward to having all the trimmings served up around me, with the spiritual gravy on top. 🙂

      1. Robert Pirsig points out in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that there are many paths that move in the direction of the ‘mountain top’ and that one can find the Buddha not only in Meditation but in a hockey game. The entire path of enlightenment consists of looking, finding your own truth, and continuing on that path, step by step, as your spirit moves you.

        Some things you do will make things more free and some things will stick you more and make you less free. If you decide to become free and have some ultimate ‘beyond your wildest dreams’ place you want to go – Put your spiritual feet down and go there.

        If it works, you are probably on the right path, and if not your probably not.

        It’s taken me more than one life starting in 1946 to get somewhere, so I’m not saying the journey is swift, I’m saying find a path, and do , and keep on it.

        I’ve always been about thoroughness. And putting stability under any abilities I may have gained along the way.

        And it’s worked out pretty well.

        I think I’d generally agree with you, that all the truth about ‘existence’ is to be found in all of our created experiencable track, not just one ‘beings’. And the good news is that it’s possible to get to the point where you can see all of that for yourself. At least that’s true for me. And I suspect it’s true for all. But we will see.

        We are not in the business of getting in and out of bodies but in the business of creating and destroying universes.

        1. James.
          And we are so good at it.. real good.
          “”It’s taken me more than one life starting in 1946 to get somewhere, so I’m not saying the journey is swift, I’m saying find a path, and do , and keep on it.””
          Marildi in her comment today said i been chipping away and yes i have since 73 Fall, but i dont see it that way, but as the greatest adventure i ever created.
          Not once since 73 I ever thought, entered in my mind to stop, totally opposite, it is more I want to do and see.. because what i have learned -seen so far pushes me forward, it is like a fantastic- exiting book, one can hardly wait till one reads the page to get to the next. And I am the author of that book and that is the fun part.
          Todays session was ground braking. I have had session about darkness and all the relating concepts, but today was special, since i have stapped over that invisible wall and entered into the Universe outside of this planet of course and i was able to see space which is not space in fact… this was not a recall but in reality since i am aware by now what is recall, or as in Now.
          2:40 am it is time to put this item into its box and cover it up.

        2. Wonderful post! And not just because I concur on every single point and would have worded it almost the same (LOL :D).

          I knew of that book by Pirsig but never read it. But there was one I read about qigong, which sort off offhandedly suggested that qigong could even be applied to life (living) – and to my understanding that would simply mean focused on being in the here-and-now. Or maybe, “doing what you’re doing while you’re doing it”. In any case, that idea in the qigong book struck me. On my own I had decided that life itself is a process! And different ways of living are the varying processes of living life. It doesn’t have to be (but it can be) a segregated portion of “time out” to walk on one’s path.

          You say, “I’ve always been about thoroughness. And putting stability under any abilities I may have gained along the way.” Me too. In fact, there is a great deal left to learn and do in Scientology (and all its offshoots) for almost everybody. I’ve been too busy with life to get back into Scn much. But along the way I decided I would. I’m winning so I continue doing what I’m doing, for now.

          Actually, all of your comments have been very well received, including the ones on the “Theory of Everything” post thread. Please continue! You might even consider submitting a written piece for Geir to consider as a guest blog post, as he is now taking “applications”. I’m sure a blog post by you would be a contribution to “making things more free”, to quote you.

          Btw, do you prefer being called “James” or “doc”?

          1. Mardi,
            I usually go by doc. It’s actually from being able to fix aircraft, being a plane doctor, not my mathematics degree. When I learned to fly you had to either have a very good plane mechanic or become one. I became one – hence the doc.

            I’ve really enjoyed reading the posts here. My compliments to everyone involved.

            I should point out that philosophically the concept of causality is disputed and has been long before Socrates. Socrates taught Plato, Plato taught Aristotle.

            The fact that because of A then B is not proven, it’s generally only an opinion. You can strongly believe it, but faith itself is just an opinion. If you look at the truth of source it is what it is.
            There can be a very large number of explanations for the juxaposition of two things .

            Then there is the issue of viewing itself.

            Who is it that is looking?

            Where does that ‘live’?

            There is a different concept – of synchronicity – which Carl Jung wrote about quite a bit, which assigns meaning to apparently acausual events, that somehow are related.

            You start thinking about a friend, and they pop up in front of you. Now if you are in your usual haunts and locations there might be nothing unusual about that.

            But one time I was at the Frankfurt Airport changing planes to go to Marseilles , and was for some reason thinking about Peter Gillham, and the next thing you know I bump into him, also changing planes between whatever and whatever, and there was a very narrow window there, and we ran into each other. Now it may be true that I picked up his ‘signal’ or it may be that I needed to run into him, since we did talk and he gave as he often did some good advice for something I was handling. And he was probably the best one to get advise from on that issue. Peter and I both lived in the LA area at the time, and I normally would have never run into to him even in LA.

            I often have experiences or read something by accident, or see something by accident, or even pick up telepathic comm like I did one time at a health food store from a kid, that moves me along the path I’m taking. I did not evaluate a situation, and conclude I needed x y or z and have it happen. I have done that decided on a something and have it happen, and many many times.

            But this is different.

            It’s is considered not causual.

            There is also the concept of Serendipity. You fortunately stumble across something more than you expected. From the story about the three princes of Serendip. Serendipity is important also.

            And it is also non causual.

            But it does seem to happen.

            By the way computers are not Newtonian. At the very lowest levels at the levels of switches, and circuits, they fail all the time. They are not actually digital, they are analog, with flexible boundaries used to make it appear they are digital. There are a large number of techniques and correction done to the ‘real’ computer to make the apparent computer seem to work better than it actually does. The basic element is a switch, it’s either on or off, or batshit. Oddly enough, they quite often go batshit. Switches are used to build gates, logic gates, such as and and or gates. or ‘nor’ gates.
            These are used in comparisons. And then there adders, a circuit which can add really fast, and microinstruction processors which process instructions by processing the component parts. They have a central clock to keep everything synchronized. Usually called a master clock.
            And a very current up to the date clock can process things in quintillionths of a second.

            Since light moves approximately 1 foot in a billionth of a second. Light did not move very far between clock pulses.

            You can sit and watch the electrons move around in a computer if you like. I always find it fascinating. they appear and disappear. Part of any electron path is virtual. Look for yourself.

            My point about the computer above, is that all of this basic stuff that an entire civilization practically sits on top of , is at the basics, prone to failure, and needs to be heavily corrected to work as well as it does.

            It all supposedly sits on top of immutable laws of cause, and none of them are immutable, or even trustworthy.

            I’m always amazed it works at all.

            And the entire thing is all completely arbitrary. All Software is arbitrary. They create a universe with rules or not, and it may work and it may not work.

            Kind of like MEST.

            The elementary particles called atoms have a job to do , and that job is agreed upon, and generally the particles actually obey that directive.

            And so most of the time, air is living, and hydrogen is free, and h20 (water) is living very freely.

            But it doesn’t have to be, and sometimes it doesn’t.

            I have the opinion that this is all designed. A point I’ll develop more in another post.

            But the point I wanted to make here, is that cause doesn’t necessarily happen before a event or circumstance. Sometimes s…t just happens. and sometimes the rules get bent.

            And miracles occur or don’t.

            1. I love the wind up of your piece. That’s why I don’t worry about anything. Of course I have to be reminded on occasion. 🙂

              Look forward to more…..

            2. Hi doc. I’m really, really enjoying your posts, on this and other threads too.

              You said, “I have the opinion that this is all designed. A point I’ll develop more in another post.”

              Okay. Ready when you are. 🙂

      2. One can take one’s case into one’s own hands and be systematic about it. No two beings have had the same experiences so you unwind what is there – peeling the onion. How you go about that can be standardized.

        I do think that some hand holding is needed to get a person started. But it need not take long.It’s like learning to ride a bike. At first you are scared and wobbly, but after practicing for a little while you learn to balance and steer and off you go.

        What is served up here is a compulsive game condition with no apparent way out. No amount of training is going to undo it. The only way to handle it is to go in session and run out your own considerations that wound you up where you sit. Nor is it an either/or situation – one can do both – study whatever you like, but get in session every day.

        No one is going to undo trillions of years of existence in a handful of years. Yes, it will take a lifetime or maybe 2 or 3 or more, but what is that in comparison to the number of lives you have had? One thing is for sure, if you never start you’ll never finish.

        I see your metaphor as being inverted, the meal is your spiritual nature, your bank/case is the box with a pretty picture of the meal printed on it. You’re looking at the pretty picture on the box, the box must be opened and discarded to get to the actual meal. We live inside a virtual reality game, and like players of computer games can become obsessed with playing them – especially the ones that are VR’s, like Second Life or Word of Warcraft, we have become mesmerised with the VR game of life here. You wouldn’t encourage anyone to spend their life sitting at a computer playing SecondLife I’m sure, and the same is true for the spiritual being compulsively playing the game of meatball.

        The “Bridge” LRH left clearly does not take one to the destination – OT VIII does not take one to native state or anywhere close. There are no OT levels coming that will do it. LRH didn’t make the grade. But he did give us the tools to do it. It just didn’t fit his business plan to have people learn to audit, get them started on it and send them on their merry way. He had other fish to fry.

        1. Well written post, Freebeeing. Especially the improvement on my metaphor. You’ve eloquently extended Tom Campell’s own metaphor and LRH’s unmatched discoveries about bank/case.

          Let me just add this to my previous comment. I am no longer necessarily convinced that a person must do auditing as a first step, or as the next, or as a continuing or continuous step on their path – although I have no reason to doubt that it is a necessary route to include at some point on a road to truth/enlightenment. Most likely, IMO, people differ on what would be the right path for each. But, if it becomes necessary I will gladly eat my words in the pretty picture on the box. 😉

        1. I’m sure I have – I’ve read all of them. Do you mean the one about chipping away? If so, I got it. 🙂 Good reply.

  13. Hi Geir,

    I would like to know what differences do you perceive between the concepts of ”full responsibility” and ”free will”. I have understand that by full responsibility you mean the ability and willingness to acknowledge that one is a cause without prior cause and by free will you mean the cause without the prior cause. Do you think that the basic difference between full responsibility and free will is that when a person is fully responsible and take full responsibility, he is perceivng, acknowledging and self-reflecting himself as pure unlimited potential or a cause without prior cause and the free will is simply a person himself as a pure potential (or cause without prior cause)? I would like to know what are your opinion about this my considerations…:)

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