Having just announced that I will try out a different topic, I just had this huge realization and needed to write it down for clearity of mind.
Scientology does not deliver on its promise of full spiritual freedom (nothing can but yourself). Therefore it acts as a place-holder, a thought-stopper for people seeking spiritual enlightenment. Scientology presents itself as the end-all to spiritual attainment, the end station, the look-no-further. Hubbard dictates that Scientologists MUST NOT look other places for spiritual freedom. And those who bite the hook, line and sinker… they look no further. And thus the people seeking ultimate enlightenment are forever trapped from gaining what they seek.
Scientology is the perfect spiritual trap for this very reason.
It is treachery to promise ultimate freedom, tell people to look nowhere else and then not deliver on that promise.
Hubbard could very easily have avoided creating the ultimate trap – simply by not telling people that Scientology is the end-all, and by not enforcing blinders on other paths and methodologies. He could just have presented a set of powerful tools for people to try out, test and verify. But he didn’t. He made a brand, and locked it down with copyrights and trademarks. He crafted a belief system and a world view. A cult.
There are excellent tools in Scientology. There are many beneficial methods worth trying out. But the whole, as it stands, is the ultimate spiritual trap. You can benefit from Scientology – but don’t swallow it whole.
Hubbard could have focused on what you want. But instead he focused on what he or Scientology wanted for you, for the world. And it ended up with “my way or the highway“.
I choose the highway. I choose to choose freely.
Let hell break loose.
(Hugh at Gapingvoid.com)
Geir Isene - uncut 
Hell has broken loose and the tumult is growing every day. We who escaped the trap or were pulled from the trap by others are sharing our realizations and our confessions of complicity in the carnage.
As someone said in an earlier comment on another thread, “We saw what we wanted to see and we heard what we wanted to hear.” When dear friends were cast out of the cult, we turned a blind eye so that we could continue to partake of the blessed sacrament of OT holiness. Even now, some who really know better cling to the image of Ron standing tall above the fray and urging us on “to wear the boots in the sky”.
Ron’s ability to project inspiring images while personally engaging in despicable practices marks him as one of the masters of deceit. If the Devil is the Father of Lies, LRH might well be one of his brightest disciples. After all, he studied the Black Arts and must have picked up something worthwhile.
Yes, he was very good at deceiving others, but his true power was his ability to inspire them first.
David Geir……….
Simply grand: let’s be a victim and lets blame…. Let’s fry, and let’s hang him and stone him with words: his mock –up the eternal soul.
What I read is: mob lynching: feels good so let’s blame the bastard for all my ARCB’s all my problems, he is responsible, he did it to me, to us!!! Poor –poor me, so helpless, so weak, so useless, so very innocent!!
But who the hell made anybody believe that what he said was all facts and true?
No one can force any one to believe in something unless they really want to..
Where was the thinking, the ability every being has to sort out the right from wrong? Where was the rationality to analyze, judge evaluate for self what they were hearing reading and paying lots of money for?
Oh sure now all you guys feel duped because you realize that you were not acting rationally by your own standard and you do not look good and in most cases ‘’ feeling stupid, having loss, remorse, and now you all need to justify your actions and lets pour the blame on somebody but not self of course!
And now you all form clubs by agreement and you all are on the same band wagon trumpeting how you all were victimised.
Crap… and what is sad that you all believe that but LRH has given the tools but he could not make any one use it, and he could not erase any ones Bank and he could not walk the Path for any one and dish out enlightenment.
Each being is responsible for one’s own action.. so blaming others that others caused ones condition well… that itself is not what LRH though.
We can’t blame others for what we believe, we only can be victims of our own believes,
Geir:
1…’’ Hubbard could have focused on what you want” nooooo. Hubbard did not know what I wanted or in fact any one wanted… he offered his reality and only his!
2…” He could just have presented a set of powerful tools for people to try out, test and verify”.
E….He did that and it was up to each individual to make up one’s mind of its value.
3….’’ Scientology does not deliver on its promise of full spiritual freedom (nothing can but your-self).’’
E… That is the fact, I have realized that 30 years back and that is the reason I have continued with solo auditing.
I have the tools so is every other person who has learned what is auditing etc.. and auditing –confronting works, one even can attain ability to eliminate the berries which are caused by having lifetimes by not having such a reality one really can see, can retain knowledge while being without the body. [of course you don’t believe that, because there is no solid proof !]
4….” Hubbard dictates that Scientologists MUST NOT look other places for spiritual freedom. And those who bite the hook, line and sinker… they look no further. And thus the people seeking ultimate enlightenment are forever trapped from gaining what they seek.’’’
E…Before one finds out before one really know if something is working one must use those tools and find out if it really works or not… But one should not stop at the first barrier, because the procedure is time consuming and one becomes bored and don’t see the results right away..
The universe was not created in one life time so how can one confront something so vast, so immense in few thousands of hours in sessions?
David .
.”” As someone said in an earlier comment on another thread, “We saw what we wanted to see and we heard what we wanted to hear.” When dear friends were cast out of the cult, we turned a blind eye so that we could continue to partake of the blessed….. etc…..”””
E… first they had they own reality than they went into agreement with other persons reality, so they have become the victim of their own believes… there is no other way…
Where is the responsibility, take responsibility for one’s own action?
No, LRH could not give that either, and no one can buy that it is not on the market… one has it or one don’t… but where blame rules the persons not likely responsibility made the nest there.
+1
Feri, I be in Budapest for 10 days if you live there have lunch with me.
Thank you. Sajnos nem lakok Budapest közelében.
welcome, I will be Pecs, Szeged, Nagykanizsa, Nagyrecse and Buda-Pest, Csillaghegy. So you are not in Hungary than..
Have a nice trip! Nem lakok Magyarországba.
thanks, my very first visit since we left in 56.. my hungarian is very poor by now, since I seldom used it since 64…
You see blame. I see a mere statement of fact. You seem to have blinders when it comes to what the organization of Scientology – run by Hubbard’s policy and demands – brought to the lives of so many people. So what you say, it is your OWN fault, not Ron’s fault. You are enamored of the tools, and you attribute them to Hubbard, when in fact, the tools were crafted by others and Hubbard took the credit. Your involvement with the “Church” ended many decades ago. Your interactions were limited to your own experience.
You deride those that speak of the injustices, the horrors that were perpetrated in the name of “Scientology” and spiritual freedom. Laying the blame on them for not taking responsibility. Yes, we are responsible for our lives. It is also helpful to point out the potholes to others, especially when they are not so easily seen. No, let them bash out their lives in these potholes, after all they are CAUSE! Fuck them if they are so low and stupid as to not take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for their actions!
Hubbard was a saint and we should NOT SPEAK of EVIL. You really have a ways to go on the path Eliz if this is the level of compassion you are able to muster.
guess what, I really dont care who invented the tools and who claime what, and yes, each person is responsible for self…for their own action… interestingly many people know about that outside of scientology.
I wonder how it works; scientologist wanted to clear the universe and take responsibility for that big lump… but cant do the same for self?
E: “guess what, I really dont care who invented the tools and who claime what, and yes, each person is responsible for self…for their own action… ”
OK, I’ll bite.
It works in reverse too. Hubbard is responsible for his actions. He is responsible for the effect he created, for what his Church did in his name, and he is responsible for his deliberate work to create a mind-control cult that destroyed many lives. He is responsible for his lies, he is responsible for Fair Game, he is responsible for COMMANDING ALL SEA ORG MEMBERS TO COMMIT MURDER.
None of us are islands that work independantly of each other, we are all inter-related somehow and on some leve. So if you want people to be responsible for their own actions and their own decisions then it has to go all the way. You also have to hold people responsible for the effects they create and what they caused to happen to others.
I’m 100% with freebeing on this one.
SP..
I am totally fine with your reality how you see and believe… I have reality on both end of the stick…by that: I mean I can agree with anybody.. I do understand the MEST universe and what made it what is..
the hours in session was not spent futile.
You went into scientology looking for answers, I went into scientology I had no idea what I would find,
My doctor who was a field auditor said it will help my problem if I get auditing
And that moment I wanted to improve my sex life… our marriage was on the rocks and My ex said he wanted better sex life… hehehe.[ he never thought believed that he was part of his problem; his thingy was not responding the right way….hehehe ]
So I got the auditing and why was that? Even than it was I who has taken responsibility, thinking it was I who was cause of his dissatisfaction… see the blame- victim here?
He got a new wife and I got scientology… after that he got one more new wife!!!
I have found what I never thought existed, and I found answers to hundreds of thousands of questions which arisen over the years in solo sessions.
have found what I did not know existed than.. I know the MEST universe from one end to the other, in and out.. Plus a bit more.
The same knowledge -understanding-experience : It’s there to have for anyone who really wants to know… but one needs to look not for answers from others since they only know their own reality, have their own answers.
And you have yours, because your universe is unique and only you understand its contents.
SP…..”You also have to hold people responsible for the effects they create and what they caused to happen to others.”””
that is not that easy as you said because we really dont know how we effect others, what turns their crank.. that is: how our universe stimulates theirs…
No compassion here, i have understanding which include that ”compassion” is a item a condition same as any other: love-hate, pain in the zorch etc… need to be handled. And compassion =simpathy, going into agreement, taking same side.
Dont tell me about compassion that I am in the need of it..
You seem to have the wrong definition of compassion here.
The definition perverted by LRH. Where was your responsibility Elizabeth when you accepted that?
hubbard was a flim flam man… and he was not a saint… far from it… but I over look the bad because of the good.. same as Marildi have..
and I dont get my daily doze of dopamine from lynching and flinging negative about him..
he put out his reality and you read into interpreted it through your reality..
Elizabeth, why overlook the bad? It’s not miniscule or negligible. It is part of the truth. To know truth is to know and accept both for what they are – nothing more, nothing less.
I never read any post so far when somebody said.. My God I been in scientology for 15 years, and I have had great time and bad time, have cost me a bunddle, but God it was one hell on an adventure, experience and I have learned a lot and my life is better because of it.. and that would indicate F/T!!!
Elizabeth – can you show me the science and the proof of Hubbard’s Bridge to Spiritual Freedom? I was in for years, spent $$$,$$$ and NEVER saw one Clear or OT that was anything close to “super novus” human being! If Hubbard’s Scientology worked – why did he hide in a trailer for the last 15 years of his life wanted by the law? Why was his family shattered? Where are the Clears and OT’s per his promise? All I saw were broke and broken parishoner’s believing everything they were told , not LOOKING at anything but what is fed to them…could not even clean a bathroom without some policy letter – my god girl – wake up and please LOOK!!
Where is the science? Where is the proof of Hubbard’s claims! Please just give facts not some waxing success story that did not last!
Well, well, well. I just had an epiphany too. A thought has been maturing in my mind for a few days, it’s been crystalizing throughout the discussion about Hubbard and lying. At first I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and had no real evidence of ill-intent, so I argued that most likely he wasn’t outright lying and tended more towards over-the-top hype and salesmanship.
Then David St. Lawrence posted his piece, especially this bit (the rest is just as good, this part more so):
“I do not think that Hubbard was able to distinguish between truth and lying, since he espoused truth in almost every public document, but promoted falsehoods in almost every private document.”
I got to thinking, “What kind of personality type does that? Extreme manic? Schizophrenia?” More on this in a minute.
Geir’s last link, “my way or the highway”, points 4, 5, 6 and 7. It’s an HCO Ethics Order signed by Hubbard:
“4. They are fair game.”
“5. No amnesty may ever cover them.”
“6. If they ever come to a Qual Division they are to be run on reverse processes.”
“7. Any Sea Org member contacting any of them is to use Auditing Process R2-45.”
#4 is vicious and we all know exactly what fair game means. It’s not mere shunning, it’s shunning on steroids to a degree no other religion practices.
#5 has no mercy, not even the fabled “leave the door open just a crack” wiggle room.
#6 is sadistic per Hubbard’s own rules. He’s on record many times as saying reverse processes can utterly destroy a thetan. And here he is ordering it.
#7 is a direct order to all SO members to commit murder. This is not a joke, there’s no wiggle room, no room for misinterpretation. R2-45 is described in Creation of Human Ability, there it is quite obviously tongue in cheek. Here it is not.
So what are we dealing with in this fellow Hubbard? There’s no more doubt in my mind:
L. Ron Hubbard was a sociopath (I do use the term loosely). Someone without remorse or guilt. He was a two and a half percenter if you want to express it that way.
My god, I bought this man’s bullshit for 27 years.
Alan
Splog, please see my reply to you, which was misplaced further down.
So where is the person on the tone scale who believes everything. who is so gullible and swallows everything not thinking assessing than blame other when something happens which is the outcome of his ignorance, stupidity?
Do tell me the name for that please!
Elizabeth – It ^ is called MIND CONTROL – it is part of being a human being and is not on the Tone Scale because the Tone Scale is more of El Con’s con – it simply is not accurate nor is it scientology – only parts of it.
Please do some research on mind control and then come back and debate – you are under it right now!
Hubbard was a con man – and Scientology is a scam – pure and simple!!
idlemorgue: ” – and Scientology is a scam – pure and simple!!”
Just so you don’t feel ignored here as you throw in your best zingers – you are aware, right?, that just last month Geir had an OP up titled “My Scientology Enigma”, here:
https://isene.me/2013/02/11/my-scientology-enigma/
Here’s a quote from that:
“I did all the available spiritual levels delivered by the Church – up and including OT 8. And I have gotten personal gains from every level, every service. I left the Church in 2009 for reasons well known, but my personal experiences in Scientology has been very beneficial.”
That right there would appear to falsify your unsupported global generalization about Scientology.
I have a feeling your attempts to troll this blog aren’t going to get much response.
Perhaps you should lurk moar?
🙂
Thanks for catching a broad generality, Val. I’m no fan of those.
My experience is that NOTHING can happen to ME unless I am creating that too…so e.g. I have to create being a victim to be victimized…and its source is, if we really go to the root of it, is that I want to experience that experience….could be on a chain of experiences, though.
I think maybe English isn’t your first language, so I don’t know if you intend this, but you should be aware that your tone in your comments on this post (that is, how you write, not where you are on the “tone scale”) is extremely condescending, arrogant, and even cruel. You seem angry to the point of hysteria.
I don’t want to get in a fight, but I wanted that to be said, so that if you continue to post with such hostility, at least you’ll know how you’re coming off.
Alan: ” . . . no other religion practices.”
Chris: That was a well put together piece Alan. I’ve been experiencing the same process in myself. But in light of that, you should take one more look at your comment on shunning and fair game. Religion has practiced every form of shunning throughout its history into present time – Scientology is a piker when it comes to fair game. On the bright side, just give them time and leeway and I believe Scientology would practice fair game with the best of them. Parallel to this discussion of Scientology, I have been looking if any religions are any better. I don’t have much good to say about religions.
Hi Chris,
Thanks for that. On shunning, yes you are right. History is a harsh mistress, we can start with the Inquisition – that one had legal teeth to back it up. Hubbards brand of fair game is still pretty vicious.
For religions, I’ve been an atheist since I was 15, I’m now 47. By atheist I literally mean “no god” and I don’t agree with the Abrahamic take on the 8th dynamic. There is a concept of infinity and there does seem to be something to the 7th dynamic as well, but I have way too little data to have any real opinion on that one.
When I found Scientology I thought I’d found something that could help me figure out the answers. Turns out it was little more than a piece of blue sky, so I’m back at square 1.
Alan
Alan: “My god, I bought this man’s bullshit for 27 years.”
Chris: I know. It’s hard to look at.
Geir, I respect you tremendously for your continued bravery and healing.
Alan, that was the word I should have used. Sociopath.
He was a brilliant sociopath. His motives were hidden even from himself!
If you have ever read his “Affirmations” there can be no doubt of it.
David,
Yes, I have read his affirmations. It was about a year ago if memory serves.
They just went on for pages and pages, about 5 of them. I recall thinking at the time they read like pick-me-up quips one might hear on Oprah, things you say to yourself in the mirror while shaving every morning. But there was just SO MUCH of them!
Looking back, they now seem to have the flavour of someone asserting his own rightness in every possible way in every facet of life. What is one of the defining characteristics of anti-social personality (the life sciences definition)? That they cannot ever admint to being wrong.
Alan, my understanding of ‘affirmations’ is not that. ‘Afffirmations’ are a form of positive thinking designed to counter self-perceived weaknesses or imperfections or to reinforce/develop existing traits/talents.
Try googling Emile Coue.
Labelling : what’s that really means: identifying what and where is and that shows where is ones reality is, how one sees the universe. But no matter how one sees others and believes one know others that still do not means, that one really can see into the other persons universe..
One only can see experience one’s own reality.
By now I am sure you know that one can only indentify have understanding of something if one has experienced that topic.
I have learned in session that I have experienced every level of reality behavior by now and I know one of them is not better than the other… just different…
Elizabeth
“I have experienced every level of reality behaviour by now and I know one of them is not better than the other….just different”. VERY ENLIGHTENING! It’s a “spiritual trap” to look for, desire, or to want to keep an experience like “out of body”, “merging”, any “win”….or trying to push them away. The ability and knowingness are eternal.
One looses the freedom to experience what is there, or rather, what would POTENTIALLY be there if one still has the concepts of “good-bad”, “right-wrong”…my experience in “real” life…
Thank you for your voice of sanity – Hubbard was an evil con artist that devised a “religion” that is a scam – there is no spiritual freedom, there is criminal activity going on especially at the top – it is all about getting all of your money, slave labor pure and simple.
It is a cult and it destroys in the name of HELP!! Betrayal of the worst kind!! Total spiritual abuse!
“If in doubt, love” – yes! And also, communicate and tell the truth! What is on your mind at the moment. To the right person – the person concerned. Or, to everybody – like here (my take and practice, seems to work). The TRUTH is never restimulative.
Geir, this is the last time you tempt me. I swear 😛
I liked what I read about what you intend to do. I have made the same decision too, though I didn’t do it based on Hubbard, but SCN itself. And I also had a realisation too just now –that at some point or another, during my stay in SCN, I have had -even for short whiles- all the point of view that I have read about here (about SCN), from the most pro-SCN to the most anti-SCN. So, I see no reason to debate against myself any longer hehehe
Spyros
AAAAnd THE TEEEEmtation is COOOming now from MEEEEE here too! So stay with us!
LOL
Yes, I like you too (and Marildi and others too –sorry I didn’t reply, I was keeping my oath 😛 )
If I stay, my talk will be totally psychedelic (irrelevant, illogical…) and maybe I will be posting black metal youtubes too. I like chiller, but I also like the opposite too –hard, dark etc 😛
WOW! Hard, dark etc. When is it coming? Post one! I love to experience anything!
“keeping my oath” Hm.Hm. “Keeping” is Holding back…life is fun when it is illogical!
Hehe yes ‘keeping’ is sticking something, for me. Well, when it comes to dealing with other people I like to ‘keep my word’. But yes, if it doesn’t serve us, I can change my mind 🙂
Indeed, logic is so MESTy….
I’ll see what I can do with the song. I’ll try to find something to approach more general tastes 😛
These points have all been argued on other blogs with conflicting experiences and conclusions on each one.
While I have appreciated most of your comments, one thing I wanted to comment on was your quoting and apparent agreement with this statement of David’s:
“I do not think that Hubbard was able to distinguish between truth and lying, since he espoused truth in almost every public document, but promoted falsehoods in almost every private document.”
For one thing, “every public document” seems to be rather a sweeping generalization. But even if that were true in large part, it seems to me that the conclusion that LRH was unable to distinguish between truth and lying is rather the opposite of what should have been concluded if he did in fact use truth in certain specific circumstances and lied in others. It seems to me that would actually indicate ability to distinguish.
Perhaps there was a “method to his madness” – defined as “There is ‘method to one’s madness’ when what looks like strange and meaningless action (madness) is actually the result of a carefully reasoned plan (method).” http://www.goenglish.com/MethodToMyMadness.asp
The above was meant as a reply to Splog.
marildi,
We all got through our own personal process when sorting out truth from trash, with denial and grief along the way. It’s taken three long years and only now was I ready to say what I said above and accept it.
re: David’s statement. I don’t want to engage in sweeping generalities either but English can be so ambiguous. We don’t have a single word that describes “mostly, and in such large, pervasive amounts that whereas there are exceptions they really don’t matter in the grand scheme of things but instead prove the point by showing it’s not absolute”. That’s quite a mouthful! Most people use “always” or “mostly always” instead; that’s what I understood David to mean and is how I used it.
I don’t really care if Hubbard could distinguish for real or not, it’s very apparent now that his mind worked in ways totally alien to me. I don’t buy his story about being such an awesome being with such amazing experiences that he “had to tell the lesser tale”, that sounds exactly like a catch-all excuse that magically explains anything.
“Method to the madness”? Well, that might also be true, but I choose to define it rather as “messing with my head” and “the ends justify the means”. A wise person once told me the ends never justify the means as the means ARE the end. I’ve never forgotten that.
Splog, my comment wasn’t so much about the generality of “every”. I followed that with “even if that were true in large part…”.
The main point I was making was that David’s statement about LRH writing lies in one type of document and telling truths in another leads me to the conclusion he COULD differentiate between lies and truth, assuming as a given that he did do one in certain circumstances and the other in different circumstances. And my further point was – hence the possible “method to his madness”.
Yes, Marildi, there was a method to his madness.
Here is a story from Bill Franks, former Chairman of the Board and Executive Director International of the Church of Scientology – appointed by LRH.
This story reveals Hubbard’s exact method that he used on Scientologists, and this method repeats itself throughout the ethics, tech and admin of Scientology. It repeats itself. You can find this pattern not only in the subject matter that Bill Franks discusses here, but in many different places in Scientology.
It is a very important story.
Here is what Mr. Franks wrote:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?22265-Bill-Frank-s-story-about-brainwashing-(thread-merge)
Again, this is a very important story that only surfaced from Mr. Franks in the last couple of years. As he says, it has huge implications about what L Ron Hubbard was actually doing with Scientology. I believe that all Scientologists should know this story if they are ever to make truly informed decisions about their own involvement in Scientology.
Alanzo
Alanzo: “Again, this is a very important story that only surfaced from Mr. Franks in the last couple of years.”
Me: Well, well, well. Whowouldathunkedit?
That was a *very* enlightening read, thanks for the link.
“A person does not blow due to Overts or Witholds. He blows only due to ARC breaks. However, If any of this information ever become public, I would lose all control of the orgs and eventually Scientology as a whole.” LRH
Ouch! Thanks for sharing that, Alanzo. I felt like repeating it here as well.
Good point! Different reality (experience on OT8) can cause communication problems with the realities of “others”. So there is an ARCx.
Since there is nothing else existing but ARCB’x in ones univrse.. I to agree on that.
Our universe is made up from that;ARCU.
One do not duplicate because have a brake in affinity, reality, understanding, of course how can one communicate without those elements? Anything ever entered into my universe has remained because of them.. ARCUnot being present..
marildi: “The main point I was making was that David’s statement about LRH writing lies in one type of document and telling truths in another leads me to the conclusion he COULD differentiate between lies and truth, assuming as a given that he did do one in certain circumstances and the other in different circumstances. And my further point was – hence the possible “method to his madness”.”
Me: I got that, really I did 🙂
I just don’t consider the distinction especially relevant, the final outcome tends toward the same result either way – Hubbard is seen to be a liar. The reasonable man theory applies too – people don’t like being lied to and don’t like deceit. They also don’t like being used and cast aside.
If there was method to his madness, I fail to see the point or any possible positive outcome. He had 365 times 36 days to come clean with how he was trying to accomplish the goal, but he never did. Even after researching and releasing OT VII where supposedly on completion a being has *no*more*case* he still never laid out the truth, not even in confidence. And then died alone in a Bluebird with needles in his arse.
So far all practical purposes the outcome is the same.
Alan.
Alan: “If there was method to his madness, I fail to see the point or any possible positive outcome.”
I don’t see one either. I just leave it open to a possibility, even though it be a very slight one in some frame of reference perhaps only a few people, if any, know about. Maybe only LRH himself.
Neither do I disagree at all that people don’t like to be liked to lied to. But, in reference to your mention of what isn’t “especially relevant”, my view is that any lying or worse crimes are not insignificant but are irrelevant to the fact that LRH’s contributions were monumental, IMO. That’s what gets not-ised and even outright denied, or not seen at all, while to me it has truth.
That said, I do appreciate your civil and well-intended comments. 🙂
MARILDI ”my view is that any lying or worse crimes are not insignificant but are irrelevant to the fact that LRH’s contributions were monumental, IMO. That’s what gets not-ised and even outright denied, or not seen at all, while to me it has truth.”””
My dear I am with you 100000% on that.. people cant see because where they are at: only negative low toned thoughts exist from them cant see anything different because of those negative thoughts=barriers: they cant see that the good out weigh the bad..
Elizabeth wrote:
My dear I am with you 100000% on that.. people cant see because where they are at: only negative low toned thoughts exist from them cant see anything different because of those negative thoughts=barriers: they cant see that the good out weigh the bad..
Maybe the good outweighs the bad for you personally, and for Marildi personally – and maybe, for a while, even me personally. But some people did not do better with Scientology, and some were completely destroyed by it.
I never signed up for that. My personal wins don’t outweigh the damage that Scientology has done to so many other people. That damage demands that everyone be given ALL the information – the good and the bad – so that they can make their own decisions in an informed manner.
And when you look closely, as the story I posted above does from Bill Franks, you see that a lot of that damage was intentionally caused, and people were intentionally trapped in Scientology by L Ron Hubbard.
I REALLY never signed up for that.
So it isn’t just low-toned negative thoughts, Elizabeth, that keeps me writing these things. It would be a severe mistake for you to keep believing that. Believe it or not, I feel that I have a personal responsibility to people like me – people who got involved in Scientology just like I did – to share with them what I have learned so that they can make informed decisions about their own involvement in Scientology. So that they might be able to avoid the damage that was done to me, and to others.
It’s not a low-toned thing. It’s a responsibility thing. Even a duty thing.
And I’m not the only one. There are hundreds of people, called “critics”, who have felt and who still feel this same responsibility to make sure people get the information they need to make informed decisions about Scientology.
No. It’s not low-toned at all. But you sure can go down-toned doing it sometimes. Especially when you keep being told, over and over, that you are low-toned by selfish Scientologists who are so wrapped up in their own “wins” that they do not even care about the harm Scientology has done to others.
Alanzo
Al, no matter what crap you write,, to me it remains just that… I wonder why you bother reading my posting? What ever you read into it it is your reality you conclusion and not mine and for that same reason I see yours–as crap… my reality and nothing could change that.
So i recomend a better sporting occupation… healthier too… go fly a kite..
Yes, Ma’am, Elizabeth.
I will surely do that. It is spring time here in the Midwest, and the perfect time to fly a kite.
Alanzo
If you ever come this way, stop by and I buy you lunch and after that we can go to Elglish Bay and fly it together… how is that sound to you?
English Bay – I’ve been there once, I think.
Very very beautiful!
I will!
Alanzo
did you just told me a fib that you have spring there? and not snow up to your eye balls? did I get you, you old buzzard?
No! There is no snow here in the cornfields. It is windy and sunny and cold. But it is the first day of spring. And that requires flying kites.
Alanzo
A…..If you have the first day of spring there than we have the same here… i think.. hehehe.. we have our first windy day for over 5 months… cold and raining…
oh.. open vistas, so you live outside of town… nice…
I used to go to corn fields every day as a young girl we gathered weeds for the rabbits….their favorite was dandelion and your favorite weed.. what is?
My favorite weed is not dandelions. I spend a lot of time trying to get rid of those from my yard.
My favorite weed is just regular grass. Thick grass that takes root and covers all of the dirt in an area of my yard.
I spend a lot of time intentionally planting those weeds in the north side of my yard. But they don’t grow well there.
I want to go with!
for you I cook a lunch.. you can bunk on the living rooms carpet.. 2 nights the most!
Elizabeth: “for you I cook a lunch.. you can bunk on the living rooms carpet.. 2 nights the most!”
Chris: Polk salad with bacon grease and 3 months! Now we’re negotiating!
well the only bacon greese we can have here if I fry you dear boy and used that fat…hehehe. 2 nights or hotel…
It is interesting to read your reply to this post of Alanzo. You call it crap. LOL. There is seriously something wrong with your perception of crap in my not humble opinion.
You refuse to acknowledge the facts of Scn history. Why is that Elizabeth? I really want to understand why you continually respond to posts that have something negative to say about Hubbard and the nutty religion he formed in such a derisive way. Why do you object to people stating what they see to be true?
Just because you use a few tools of Scn to dig your own ass out does not mean that there is nothing wrong with Scn. You are a squirrel in the eyes of Hubbard. He’d have you declared an SP. Yes, of course you’d laugh in his face.
You say that each person’s reality is their own and who is to say that one is better than another. I agree that each has their own reality. But here on this planet at this time it is not generally accepted that enslaving others, slitting the throats of babies, wreaking destruction of things that most consider to be decent, are acceptable behaviors to be expressed. Who cares if someone blows up the planet – it’s just a stupid mudball floating around a star in a galaxy, one of trillions of galaxies. Fuck it, who cares. It’s their problem if they agree with the idiot that led them to do such a thing. Serves them right for be stupid.
One could look at that and say well yes of course, it does not matter in the grand scheme of things. You can’t kill a being after all. And it is just a silly game anyway. Pfft it is beneath me to even give it a second thought. Why should I. Well yes, God doesn’t give a shit.
But we stupid humans do give a shit.
You were a stupid human once. I guess you forget the depths from which you have dug.
Let Scientology ruin peoples lives you say – they are on;y getting what they create.
Well you can go have a nice time playing with Hubbard then, This planet is not for you, why are you still here?
”’You refuse to acknowledge the facts of Scn history. Why is that Elizabeth?”
simply because I dont have history with scientology or persons I have handled all my ARCB’s on all levels of thinking-believing, acting..
By the way.. no matter what has come my way and that has been planty, I have looked at them as lessons: what I can learn from that, and no matter how bad some were but it alway had a good side..
Marildi: “. . .assuming as a given that he did do one in certain circumstances and the other in different circumstances. And my further point was – hence the possible ‘method to his madness’.”
Chris: Indeed there WAS method to his madness as there is method to every madness. Sort of like God putting dinosaur bones on earth to test our faith.
You seem to be differentiating Hubbard being crazy from Hubbard being psychotic, am I right? That’s a tough one for maybe if he doesn’t know the difference between right and wrong, maybe that’s crazy. On the other hand, if he truly knew right from wrong and was destructive anyway then that puts him the category of evil psychotic. Not good choices.
Chris, I refer you to oraclemysticism’s ‘ post.
Marildi: ” . . . Chris, I refer you to oraclemysticism’s ‘ post.
Chris: I don’t follow. Are you referring to the comment that LRH “may have inconvenienced a few people.” ?
He has? LOL!!!! no kidding?
LOL!
no one can mass with any ones head unless one believes in it even than that was ones very own reality, and no one can give you that….
Alan: A wise person once told me the ends never justify the means as the means ARE the end. I’ve never forgotten that.
Chris: Wise indeed.
M… have you ever though of that he was not lying but simply that was his reality, his universe and everything was real to him?
Universes are so different they can not be compared.. and should not be compared.
To what David is sociopath is normal to others, after all when one belongs to the ”normal group” they sure know how to label others who do not have the same belief reality than theirs.
The normal thinkers have collected the largest amount of agreement and that has become ”normal” the way we all should be in order to be top of the heap.. and the rest becomes sick.. low-lifes who are not normal. Bullshit..
See my reply above…
FreeB …”Well you can go have a nice time playing with Hubbard then, This planet is not for you, why are you still here?”
hehehe good questions, by the way I did not like him when he had a body, I have no reason to like him in his ghostly state..
To me here dont have the same meaning as you have… so I dont think, believe that I am here where you think I am here.. 🙂
Marildi: “It seems to me that would actually indicate ability to distinguish.”
Chris: Good point.
Any stable datum to which we attach firmly becomes our own trap.
We decide it is true, we stop looking at “it”, we become “it”, we can only look from “it”, it becomes our filter, our point of view, our fixed position, we become solid and lose our freedom.
Maybe the need to be identified with something reveals our basic weakness of needing to know “what” we are.
When we need to be told what the truth is, when we look for it everywhere outside, when we place ourselves at effect, we are setting ourselves up to be slaves.
Maybe truth is not an answer, is not even something fixed, maybe truth is simply our own creative contribution to the evolutive process of this universe.
Profound, Rafael.
+ 10, Rafael.
Maybe truth is not an answer, is not even something fixed, maybe truth is simply our own creative contribution to the evolutive process of this universe.
wow. This is a way of looking that I had not thought of before! This is definitely food for cognition! wow.
Maria: “This is a way of looking I had not thought of before”
I´m trying different ways of looking.
Looking is normally understood as a perception process, an inflow. At present I´m experimenting at forms of balancing it with outflow, for example looking with awe at every little piece of life, the universe and everything, or using love, admiration, etc
It helps me detach from considerations of being at effect, or even at compulsions to be at cause.
This means I´m using filters to look, but knowingly using different kinds of filters helps me get a clearer view of things.
There seems to be a scale of looking, and looking as an inflow only process, as looking to know for example, tends to go to the side of effect, there can be a balanced inflow-outflow, and maybe looking as an outflow would be at the top of the scale as as-is create.
I recommend this be used carefully, because looking at things as the almighty creator of everything and anything could easily slip into delusional states, same as considering oneself an effect, a victim, etc.
I don´t know how much of a cause or effect can we demostrably be, but, it seems that the act of carelessly considering oneself as cause or as effect can both have negative effects on our lives.
if one creates than one is 100% cause and in that moment of creation one 100%experiences, so the effect is 100%. that is ”now”
Ok maybe what I´m doing is creating simple outflows in PT, and let them flow freely, not geting stuck on anything, but that simple action changes me without even the intervention of a thought process.
in the moment of now, what is? 🙂 a fraction of a smile?
What intrigues me is the myriads of viewpoints one can have about the same anchor.. the now.
just thinking here….. right you are, we just used different wording since you also described ”now”
Rafael: I don´t know how much of a cause or effect can we demostrably be, but, it seems that the act of carelessly considering oneself as cause or as effect can both have negative effects on our lives.
Chris: More good.
right you are, I knew i liked you for some reason!
Rafael: When we need to be told what the truth is, when we look for it everywhere outside, when we place ourselves at effect, we are setting ourselves up to be slaves. . . .Maybe truth is not an answer, is not even something fixed, maybe truth is simply our own creative contribution to the evolutive process of this universe.
Chris: Oh that’s good.
:clap: :clap: :clap: Eloquent and succinct, Rafael.
Like!
“Thought-stopper”…..I would rather say “Seeker-stopper”….hm… as, if you agree, seeking is fun (your earlier seeking the ball post)….but it is also about exhausting the seeker….when the seeker can finally relax and say…”the hunch and the key” (?)…but of course, there is a little more to it.
” I choose to choose freely”….yes, but will any “method” “tool” lead you…WHERE? WHERE?…Alan Watts video….to try this, try that is fine. Fun and pleasure. Life is that! And your life has been an adventure so far, if you look back. You created a lot, have seen a lot in the world. The question is:
What do you really, really want, Geir? Will you answer this question?
Geir, good piece. I have seen that in addition to being an instant thought stopper (where the Scientology adherent is convinced that he/she was found the ultimate truth and wisdom and need not look further) I have often (not always) seen that the betrayal experienced once this illusion has been dismantled, causes a person to stop seeking all together. That is the ultimate thought stopper and trap. I know, it’s happened to me.
This is an excellent point – something to reflect on. Thanks.
As I posted above, there is more to it in my experience. So, the seeker has been found: I AM ME. Fine! Not much desire to move on. Why? Because it is partly a kind of witnessing position. I can look around the world, quite wide spectrum. I can allow everything to be as it is. Fine! But where is the ME as the EXPERIENCER of ALL the values life has? Geir: your Purpose triangle. The purpose of life is to experience all its values based on the newly found, pure (unconditioned) ME. No method, no tool….as the ME is THE tool of the Totality of Life to “provide” (as potential) experience and also experience what Life is providing (learning). And all in the NOW. With no control of the ” I ” (thought) what is being created (like me now) or experiencing what there is without the filter of a thought. Experiencer and experienced are the same.
One ” goes out” and allows oneself to be exposed to all sorts of experiences. Without any expectations and preferences. Business case over! Only a thought can stop one from
experiences anything on the Flow.
No need to “build up” your universe as Ron said. The beginning and the end of a universe is the NOW. There is no RWOT (real world out there) and there is RWOT.
This way the MIND products (viewpoints) can be experienced too as NO enemies. Also, way too many beyond the mind experiences (direct, with no intervention of thought, or usual senses). When one is stopped by a thought that one has a preference on any flow (the dynamics), one has no access to a lot of experiences.
Above the KNOW there is the NOT KNOW…. it can be experienced.
Sindy…
so if you know about it than why not putting that understanding aside by ack-it and then move on continue on your Path of self-discovery? The dream is attainable, it is up to you to go and get it, make it reality for you.
Or that false reality you have ‘’the lie’’ is on excurse because you really don’t want to bother, take the time out and that excuse is a justification a good horse to ride….
Plus makes you a victim, you can get lots of agreement, sympathy from others who are in the same boat.
And we don’t even mention taking responsibility for self for ones own action, and assigning the power to others, I wonder when that reality will finally kick in..
Sindy: I know, it’s happened to me.
Chris: Still?
I’ve always enjoyed the clear and thoughtful way in which you express your posts, Geir. This is another excellent one. I hope it inspires many fence sitters to rethink their assumptions.
Truth cannot be spoken or written. It lies outside this universe. The closest we come is the concept of static, nothingness, infinite potential, the unmanifest.
Reality is constructed by thought. This is a universe of change. Change your thought, change your universe.
It’s a matter of gardening. Thought gardening. Weed out those thought which you no longer desire. Do not plant thought seeds which you do not intend to cultivate, for they will only have to be pulled as weeds some other place and time.
Thought gardening! I like that!
Fee…B…”You were a stupid human once. I guess you forget the depths from which you have dug.”
First of al thank you. and second, no I have not forgotten, not for a second.. but I also know that agreement with any one will not promote different reality.
Can could we learn if we all believed in the same? You have read every post in my blog.. why? because you were looking for something different than what you know..
People in lower conditions can pull others into lower conditions, just like tone
levels can effect others.
I have to wonder about math skills, when someone decides Marty should be harmed
attacked and suppressed. Why? What is he doing?
He is full time auditing people either on the third dynamic or in his home.
He is bringing people back onto the bridge and getting up them up the bridge. He
is handling governments and press and safe pointing Scientology. Where it is
being attacked for overt products and become a liability under Miscavige’s
orders.
He has made it safe to practice Scientology in the field. He has shouldered all
of the heat. He has helped people to escape impossible conditions. He has healed
people.
He gets more T.A. on his blog than the Flag Land Base gets.
He has bought people from apathy up to need of change where they can see change
is possible.
He has put out the truth where is had been hidden and with held from people.
He made it possible for auditors to resume auditing and training all over the
planet, from L.A. to the middle east.
That is not all. That is just what is on the surface. He did it all with out
asking for anything except donations.
The products?
People getting audited.
People auditing.
People getting trained.
Hope restored.
Truth revealed.
Scientology safe pointed.
Scientology working again.
Releases.
Missions.
A.O.’s
CAN HAVE on Scientology.
CAN HAVE on being and practicing Scientology.
Healing.
Understanding.
Enlightenment.
So, Who / What would decide he should be harmed attacked and suppressed?
This isn’t about Marty, or a few figures ,or who is mocking up “the past” to
ser fac instead of using it to do math problems.
This is about sanity.
This is about ALL OF US, our goals and purposes and CONDITIONS that float upon
our Earth.
This is about “maximum creation and minimum destruction”.
This is about maintaining the sanity conditions we have paid for worked for and
deserve. This is about OUR WORLD.
Sanity: Is the measure of how ably an individual ASSISTS things which ASSIST
survival, and inhibits things which inhibit survival. L.R.H.
A man is sane in the ratio that he can COMPUTE accurately, limited only by
information and viewpoint. L.R.H.
A person that can not COMPUTE or do the math can not apply a doubt formula!
It makes no reason at all to give someone who is not a clear an ethics book! If
you look at the awareness chart, CONDITIONS is at CLEAR on the grade chart.
Since we are aware now people need more clearing after clear, this brings one to
understanding about how a Scientologist can and will harm attack and suppress
others , with out being able to do a doubt formula. And how injustice can run
rampant.
I hope this blows charge for anyone that has been the subject of a witch hunt or
fair gaming.
A person or group or country will have just as much justice as there is sanity.
If you look at the Church of Scientology as group of insane people, nothing will
bypass any charge on you!
The reason people get worked up, they get the idea they are approaching “an
island of sanity” there.
Then when things don’t add up, people get all disturbed about it.
You hear things like, “The tech doesn’t work”. “The ethics don’t work” “The
auditing doesn’t work” “It’s all brainwashing” and all kinds of lists of WHYs
get published.
Guess what? Guess what always gets left OFF the list as an item?
This: The people are fucking crazy.
And they think they are sane. So they are not handling it! The only difference
between me and them, is that I still admitted I was just as fucking crazy as
everyone else on the planet until I got through OT3.
Even then, I only saw the possibility ahead of actually qualifying as sane
somewhere up the line.
From MY viewpoint, CLEAR at the grade chart, should read AWARE OF CONDITIONS,
YOURS and OTHERS. AT THIS POINT ON THE GRADE CHART, IF you are lucky, you should
be just enough outside of all it to figure out how crazy everybody else is, and
how crazy you are.
Why the hell do people think they are sent to do a locational assist right after
clear?
Most of them Don’t Think! They aren’t even understanding those conditions! They
STILL are not computing!
The “wog” world has a built in system of weeding people out of power and
mainstream influence that con not compute. They put arithmetic and math into the
school curriculum.
Hubbard was a keyed out clear when he wrote Dianetics. He was till doing
research. He continued with research. Everybody traveled with him through the
research and changes.
Still, there are people out here that expected him to compute EVERYTHING for
them all the way up the line.
And when it was their turn to compute they felt put upon!
If Hubbard changed HIS mind, he was a liar.
Look, Scientology is not REALLY a group experience. The group ccan’t make you
compute or understand or weight Hubbard’s value against his efforts at research
that may have inconvenienced a few people.
There are people out here wallowing in doubt. They are in doubt about Hubbard
or Scientology.
It’s O.K.!
At least they are making an attempt to compute some things for themselves!
T.O.
good for you!! 🙂
T.O.: “… And they think they are sane. So they are not handling it! The only difference
between me and them, is that I still admitted I was just as fucking crazy as everyone else on the planet until I got through OT3. Even then, I only saw the possibility ahead of actually qualifying as sane
somewhere up the line.”
Do I understand this right that you assert that everybody who did not get through OT3 is fucking crazy?
Because my experience is that not “everyone is crazy” on the planet. I met some pretty sane and reasonable people who were not at all somewhere “up the Bridge”, some were not even in Scientology. – And I saw some above OT3 and further up the line who acted fucking crazy.
But I guess I cannot evaluate this as per what you say, I must be fucking crazy as I didn’t get through OT3 yet and thus am not qualifying as sane yet.
I am just trying to do the math here on your statement so it works out in my mind – but I guess this is in vain as I didn’t get through OT3 yet and thus am as fucking crazy as everyone else on the planet … … …
Karola
This might offer some additional perspective:
*****************************************
HCO PL 15 Feb 66 – Attacks on Scientology
(Cancels all Sec Eds and Pol Ltrs to the contrary)
Having had some time to think this over and having studied the matter with great care, I have isolated the most successful response to meeting any and all attacks on Scientology, its organizations and Scientologists and as of this date this becomes policy.
ADVOCATE TOTAL FREEDOM
That is the policy-advocate total freedom.
There are technical reasons for this which an auditor will recognize. To discharge later incidents from a mind, one must get the first or basic incident of that kind. In this case the basic aberrated incident was the suppression of freedom of the being. Just before that there must have been freedom. Thus advocating total freedom hits the true basic incident.
This is also the basic purpose of Scientology and the basic purpose of people, so it all agrees well.
This is also easiest to do. It is easier than fighting Parliaments or building up cases against people who attack us.
The only liability of using this policy (total freedom) is that it releases energy (a Scientologist knows this as “blowing locks”) which looks disturbing but is weakened.
No other approach we have used worked. We are alive not because we fought but because we went on doing Scientology in spite of anything.
So never advertise an attack. Just advocate more strongly “Total Freedom!” and show how Scientology can attain it for the individual.
Careful summary of our past actions in the face of attacks and an analysis of various changes in human history show that the best and only effective thing we did or anyone ever did was advocate freedom.
The precise practice of Scientology obtains total freedom so never advertise anything else but total freedom and the Scientology services and steps that bring it about. Courses, processing are the gradient scale to total freedom.
That’s the answer no nation or person can stand up to-if we keep saying it long and loud.
SCIENTOLOGY IS THE
ROAD TO TOTAL FREEDOM.
Used in argument one can invent reasons to baffle the attacking agency or person-but all these reasons should add up to everyone has rights to total freedom.
I think this alone can move mountains.
**************************************
It is notable that just 15 days after this policy letter was issued, on March 1, 1966, LRH established the Guardian’s Office.
Well I’ll give a more detailed response to this “policy”. First note that this is PR – ” the most successful response to meeting any and all attacks on Scientology,”
LRH lectured that “total freedom” was BS back in the 50’s. You’ve provided another example of Hubbard speaking with forked tongue.
I suggest your read Dennis Stephen’s essay in his book TROM on “Freedom Factories” available for download at tromhelp.com.
Hubbard certainly didn’t believe this. If he did he wouldn’t have thrown 5 year olds in chain lockers. Where was that kid’s right to total freedom?
Total freedom is a “No game condition”.
OT III sure didn’t handle the insanity of quite a few people that did that level.
Hubbard wasn’t keyed out clear when he wrote Dianetics. Probably had more to do with the drugs he was doing…
you are doing lots of assumptions!!!
Black PR… ungly stuff… pure undiluted bank…that is not the best way to get ones daily doze of dopamine….
Yep. I read the trom materials. I put this policy letter up because Geir referred to the promise of total freedom in his OP and this was LRHs explanation for this approach. I personally find it a baffling approach to attacks on Scientology. It seems to me that it opened Scientology up to more attacks! Even weirder, 15 days later he issues policies for the Guardian`s Office that ignore this HCO PL and give them instructions on how to do investigations and so on. This appears very contradictory to me.
And since absolutes are unobtainable, advocating TOTAL FREEDOM seems even more baffling. It’s yet another complete violation of the basics of Scientology.
Such a TOTALIST approach doesn’t seem to make any sense.
But only if you use Scientology to try to figure it out.
No, for this one, you have to go outside of Scientology to figure it out….
Alanzo
Al ……….Yes, one has to go much further than ”scientology” to become free since being in scientology is just that..Scientology in it self is a trap..
Ps did you figured out why the dadelions like to grow plant them self on your beautiful grass?
Dont hit me now, but I cant resist this, my smart is bursting out: so they can stand out, ….ego thing with them.. Ask any of them they will honestly admit their flower side.. [human side is body, having one]
You see I know all these since I talk flower and Weed to, in fact calling a dandelion weed is like calling a Chinese a chink or others a Wog.. insult. they believe that their existence is important as any other plants growing on this Planet. 🙂
Eliz: Yes, one has to go much further than ”scientology” to become free since being in scientology is just that..Scientology in it self is a trap..
You see I know all these since I talk flower and Weed to, in fact calling a dandelion weed is like calling a Chinese a chink or others a Wog.. insult.
I want to be included in that garden lunch or tea with you and Alanzo. We can admire the weeds and they can entertain us.
LRH = Con Man. All religions have ’em. Nuff said…
Simplistic generalities are simplistic. And general in nature.
one do not have to be religon to know one, since the jails are packed.. and the larger % is running free..
I posted this in response to the prior OP and didn’t realize it was not the the most recent OP, and had been as a practical matter somewhat superseded by the current OP. I’m going to try to repost this only because it really is a matter of great and timely importance, and I want it to get the attention it deserves.
Forgive me, off-topic but of great importance.
Kate Bornstein has lung cancer and needs our help.
From Tory Ortega:
http://tonyortega.org/2013/03/20/scientology-ordered-to-turn-over-confidential-files-in-forced-abortion-lawsuit/
“KATE BORNSTEIN IS KICKING CANCER’S ASS, BUT COULD USE A HAND
Last year, we were very pleased to write a Voice cover story about Kate Bornstein, one of New York’s most original performance artists, a well-known gender activist, and a former first mate for L. Ron Hubbard on the yacht Apollo (back when Kate was Al Bornstein).
What pleases us less is the fight that Kate has been engaged in against lung cancer. She was diagnosed in August, and after a successful surgery, the disease rallied and is giving her more trouble. The good news, however, is that her doctors tell her that it’s curable, and she’s fighting hard with a regimen of chemotherapy and diet.
In the meantime, she could use a little help. So today, she’s starting a GoFundMe site where we can all donate a little to help her out. As soon as we have the URL on that site, we’ll post it here. And please, if you haven’t yet read Kate’s amazing memoir, A Queer and Pleasant Danger, do yourself a big favor and buy a copy now.
And here’s the link to her fundraising site. Please go there!”
Kate’s Go Fund Me Page – Help Kate Bornstein Stay Alive
http://www.gofundme.com/2cxb6w
Amazon link to A Queer and Pleasant Danger (Amazon):
http://www.amazon.com/Queer-Pleasant-Danger-Memoir/dp/0807001651/
Barnes and Noble link to A Queer and Pleasant Danger (Barnes and Noble):
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/a-queer-and-pleasant-danger-kate-bornstein/1110784336
.
Here`s another perspective that I suddenly realized may be a core phenomenon:
The problem as I see it is that LRH undoubtedly used the cognitions of people getting auditing in fashioning his approach and materials. They may or may not be his own cognitions, and they may or may be HIS discoveries — for example, when he was working on track maps, they were the track maps of individuals like you and I. I think that happened a lot. Then he copyrighted everything and claimed ownership and source.
So now I come along, read some of the materials and bing bing bing! I say wow, that is amazing, I see that! Cognition! Of course, what has happened is that I have been reminded of what I forgot, just as the individuals who were working on that track map were reminded or recalled. LRH never owned that, he simply reported on it and incorporated it into the works of Scientology and then said he was source of it.
Now someone else comes along and invalidates that particular cognition. Now its really dicey because it really doesn`t belong to LRH, but he treats it as if it does. But it is really the cognition of an individual(s) somewhere along the line, and yours too — he was not the source of the original material or the source of your cognition. It upsets you to have it invalidated because the source of the cognition is you and therefore you see it as true and feel invalidated.
Or vice versa, I have a cognition, and I tell everyone about it very excitedly. In this instance I had the cognition without benefit of reading anything LRH wrote about that cognition. Maybe I was meditating when I had the cognition or reading Korzybski, doesn`t matter. Someone else says that`s exactly what LRH said, and now I feel invalidated because he is being assigned source for my cognition. It gets really weird.
Or another scenario – I have a series of cognitions about how some piece of tech LRH wrote up works. It is my own series now, it was once someone else`s series but not any more. I assume that others see the cognitions the way I do. But it turns out they don`t and they are baffled and upset when I insist that they have MUs or they don`t understand. But the truth is that they are not speaking from what LRH said, they are speaking from what they see as truth regardless of how LRH reported it.
At the bottom of all of this is that LRH and the people he worked with extracted information from real, live beings. I think there were times when the like attracts like principle was in play and he had a particular group of beings to work with. They then made a hasty generalization about what that particular group found. I run into this with Elizabeth all the time – she sees from a particular universe, if you will, and I from another. It is a real delight to discuss things with her because we get to see from each others universes, especially if neither of us resists the other or invalidates the other.
The mistake is LRH`s for assigning himself as source and OWNER of these materials. In my opinion, this was a real disservice to everyone, himself included.
Good one Maria.. Very good. I can see that…and it makes lots of sense.
Yep. Like the scenario of who had the cognition first and who made the postulate first — which one of us caused this??!!! I did. No I did. No you didn`t — I did. LOL! No no no no. I DID!!! LOL!
hehehe if you did where was I? and doing what? i have figured it out who’s was first , let you find that out for your-self. i bet you will like the answer…
Okay. I will bite. And the answer is….? drumroll, spotlights, lights, camera, action!!!
Maria, only on the phone…. or you have to find the answer for you self.. I do not want to cause reality brake, there is to many all ready about the spiritual universe and this is my reality.. but fact…. hehehe.
No problem Elizabeth!
I agree. Funny, you posted this. I was just thinking about this very subject today. Yes, he was quite the salesman! Not that I didn’t have wins but all the bs that came with it and the lies and deep betrayals were pretty shocking when I left a few years ago. Obviously LRH is nowhere around these days so that speaks for itself.
Wonderful thread! 🙂
I must agree with the write-up, although not very enthusiastically. The thing is that Hubbard has been long gone and that it should be now up to people dealing with the subject what they make out of it.
That’s the reason I’m not really angry with Hubbard, but those who defend the obvious problems with him can easily drive me mad.
The writings are so insidious though that if anyone wants make the subject different, then it woundn’t be standard scientology any more as per the writings, even if the changes would improve the subject considerably.
I can see many good effort in the freezone/independent community in that direction, but the problem is, they still call it scientology and say they act standardly, i.e. in accordance with the writings. It IMO takes a certain amount of doublethink and I don’t think that an actual way to freedom is possible with doublethink.
Something I’ve come to realize about The Bridge…
The results from auditing are completely and totally subjective.
However, when one reads the stated EPs on the Grade Chart they appear to be objective.
For example: Grade 0 – the ability to communicate to anyone on any subject. This sounds like something one could objectively verify. But, in practical terms, it would almost be impossible to do. So, instead, you have technical indicators (such as needle phenonema or the amount of TA) AND you consult the PC. Does the PC feel they’ve attained that ability?
Objective results in Scn have been nothing but trouble, so much so that the church should just drop the EPs from the Grade Chart and openly admit that anything they experience on the grade is entirely subjective and cannot be objectively verified. At least it would be honest. Additionally it would remove ammunition from its critics who seek to “prove” Scn doesn’t work. Just honestly admit that “some people experience…”, “often times PCs receive these benefits…” – actual results may vary.
The church (and LRH) makes the subjective objective, claiming it is an exact science, and standard tech gets 100% results, on and on. To this degree they set themselves up to criticism. It is their arogance AND their inability to deliver what is promised that gets them into trouble.
Training, however, is a different story. Training results MUST be objective. Can the auditor properly assess a list? Can they read a meter? Produce instant reads? etc. These types of things must be demonstrable.
Scientology is THE ultimate trap! Spiritual rape – the worst kind imaginable. I have never been in so much pain.
I know I am not alone. People who are or have been into Scientology. I know the screaming voices of pain in their minds. Thinking you are the only one being screwed over and over, again and again.
Fear. No one to talk to. Just put on a happy face pretending all is fine. Trying to shut off the silent screams.
You just have to live with that pain in silence as you are not allowed to look elsewhere for solutions. If you do, you lose everything – your job, family and friends. So you stay thinking it will get better. But it only gets worse!
What you don’t know, is that you have already lost everything. You have lost yourself. These folks are not your true friends anyway. NEVER BEFRIEND A SCIENTOLOGIST! Because, if you change your mind, they wouldn’t touch you with a ten foot pole.
I know exactly what you are saying, Anette.
I’ve been there, too.
Alanzo
Alanzo a question for you… if somebody is writing about something aren’t they still in it?
Anette
You say I “have never been” ….to me because of the use of the “have been” it means that you are still in that condition. Is that the case? Or you meant I “was”?
Both. It’s an ongoing recovery process.
“It’s an ongoing recovery process”. I understand what you say. Why not go to the ROOT of the “illness” right now? And get off it.
Try telling a terminally ill cancer patient that and see what happens?
And try telling the parents whose daughter was brutally raped and killed – to get off it?
Would love to see some success stories. Please provide.
Anette
In the above post you don’t speak about physical pain. At least as I understood it. In case of
mental-emotional pain one can get off it. Gradually or instantly. Find e.g. Byron Katie on the Net. There are a lot of other examples.
What you write, a terminally ill cancer patient is an extreme example of mental-physical. However, there is also a get off solution for that. May be hard to believe. Seems you like facts. Me too. I personally know an “enlightened” being who has “cured” hundreds. Tough cases too. One of my friends, who completely rejected anything which was not traditional medication, went to see this being in the last minute before a liver transplantation. After the meeting she said she would never want to meet him again. Her mind couldn’t make sense of anything of it. However, something shifted. She decided to meet a natural therapist the next week. She was doing that for a while…kind of miraculous recovery started. To cut it short, there was no need for the transplantation. That happened about 5 years ago. She is almost perfectly OK.
I could write about it in detail, that much I see from it. Her viewpoint, out of which she was creating the illness, shifted. Got literally moved. Also, this enlightened being has a tremendous pure energy in his space. One, who resonates at a higher level of consciousness, can literally, physically feel it. When he is here in the city, I feel it. You may say it’s a fairy tale. But it’s not.
This is just one success, as you asked for proof. You may say that when the body is already in a bad shape, no cure is possible. I don’t know, as I have rarely dealt with this question and its technical parts. I may though,,,,
That pure energy, which we have already talked about here is a fact. It is coming and a shift
is happening. Pure beings like him have it. Also, can help. So, what do you say to this?
Anette
Going back to what you asked. Yes, a simple “get off it” would possibly not be enough in those examples you mention.
Someone, who was brought up, lived and got the toughest possible training in Tibet and is a lama, is a different case. Some can literally bring to life the dead. This is true. Go on the Net. Read about Tibet and lamas.
The body and the mind are parts of this energy universe. There are abilities which are not mental. Those who have them can heal. Not against the person’s will because what I know about it, personal will is involved in karma. The person before birth knows his/her goals. Chooses a kind of mission, post in the broad picture called life. E.g. when one has an accident, it helps a lot of others to learn their lessons….its complexity is difficult to see without a training like the above. I don’t see it, most possibly you don’t either. It is possible
to take up another’s karma too. But it is a very high ability. Also, what we call personal will is part of the will of Life. Can be mixed with the ego at a subtle level. What I use,the word Flow,
is LIfe’s will. To cut it short, there are many-many who can get off it with a little help. The Mind is not everything. The Here and Now is accessible. Abilities are results of training and knowledge and there are those who are trained and know. I didn’t write now a success story. These words are background to those who had and can confirm its truth with their experiences, at least in what we call this here and now physical life. There is compassion by
those who know.
Thanks, M. I’m gonna watch it.
(It’s kinda ironic; 3 minute cure vs. 14 minute video.)
I’ll write more on this topic of healing mental and spiritual wounds in a future blog post.
http://www.newmedicine.ca/interview.php
Anette
With pleasure! You have asked for success stories (proofs). As I said, I had seen a few. There are lots of on the Net. Facts.My part in this question is finished here. Looking forward to your future blog post, how you see this.
Anette
‘It’s kinda ironic, 3 minutes cure vs. 14 minutes video’.
As you know, there is no such thing as ‘time’. However, ‘ironic’ is a good word here as per the 4th definition of the word ‘irony’
irony def.4: an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.
Someone, watching this video having a ‘fixed belief’ or a ‘fixed idea’ is likely to watch it through that…kind of from a position of ‘ I know it better’. Next time, the same person can get into a similar situation (illness)…and may die. Out of the above ignorance, out of the ‘veils’.
It is also ‘ironic’ that there are some people who, knowing about the existence of veils, nevertheless present true info….one reason for that is that in ‘compassion’, the person is perceiving directly….can ‘feel’…and any ‘loss’ is the person’s loss too. ‘Physically, mentally and emotionally’. There is more to it, but I am not going into it deeper now.
Did you watch the vids? When are you going to write a post about ‘healing mental and emotional wounds’?
I enjoyed the videos. I believe in the possibility that spontaneous healings can occur.
I will in a couple of months put up a personal blog on post-trauma relief titled Not all wounds are visible.
Anette: Not all wounds are visible.
Looking forword to it!
Anette
Thank you for your answer. It may very well be the case that all ‘healing’ in the ‘source’ is spontaneous…what one can ‘do’ is give up one’s illusionary personal ‘control’ and observe that spontaneity and just float with it.
‘Not all wounds are visible’ – it sounds an interesting title! As I see it, more and more people are interested in finding answers….we must ‘speed up’….skyfall, you know.
Anette,
Something I notice almost daily is that the most tolerant, understanding and decent people I get to meet is the average man on the street. People that don’t especially stand out in any major way, just your average guy. And most people out in the day to day world are pretty OK. There’s exceptions of course but on the whole, rather nice people.
In contrast, I found the exact opposite inside the church. Intolerance, unwillingness to consider other points of view, very little ability to grant beingness – these things were all rampant on the 3rd dynamic.
Sadly, most people I got to know inside the church were also quite decent at heart when you get them alone. As soon as the group think entered the picture, that decency fell away and the “3rd dynamic drug case” (my words) came into play instead.
And each one of those folks still have to walk the walk you already walked. They still have to confront the same stuff, it’s just that this is still in their future.
Alan
I couldn’t agree more, Alan. Thanks for your input.
Anette: “I couldn’t agree more, Alan. Thanks for your input.”
Me: I’ll give two examples of decent people. It’s not meant to mean anything specific, but it’s a public holiday here and for no special reason I want to tell the story 🙂
I work in an IT company (we’re an ISP) and in my building we are 300 people in one large open-plan floor. We drink a LOT of coffee, so there’s a lady who’s job it is to wash the cups. 6 times a day she pushes her trolley between all the desks colelcting cups and then washes them. She always takes care to find my personal cup and bring it to me – she knows I don’t like other people using it. And she does it for everyone else too. She’s met my kids in the office and never fails to ask after them. And she does it with everyone else too who is a parent. I don’t know why she does this, I only know that she cares and genuinely wants to make a small difference, even if it’s just about coffee cups and asking after people’s kids.
The other guy is the CEO. Every Friday he mails the entire crew about his week. Much of it is motivational speak about new products in the industry and so on, but he doesn’t shy away from problems either. He often says (in some detail) that he spoke to customer X and there is a problem, we didn’t deliver what we promise. None of it is make-wrong or blame, just a simple assessment that the system got in the way of delivering the goods, and we should try a little harder next time. No prizes for guessing what the crew do! – they do try a little harder and do it with pride. The point is, he openly acknowledges problems and doesn’t try hide them, he doesn’t need to. We already know that customer X has a complex setup and it isn’t perfect, it’s just nice to know the CEO notices and does what he can from his post to help out and make things better.
Now I realize why I wanted to tell these stories. These two people, one at the the top and one at the bottom of the org board, perfectly illustrate what I thought Scientology was going to deliver.
Alan.
Beautiful! It never stops to amaze me the kindness of “ordinary” people.
Alan: Now I realize why I wanted to tell these stories.
Chris: Those are excellent examples.
Anette
I don’t mean to be personal, yet it will be. Why is the ÖT22 there after your name?
I’m a past life OT22 completion, teleportation practitioner, exterior with full perception, apparently stuck in the incident since I can’t get the label off my name. LOL
All right…my first thought was ….go to Hell with it….as what you are writing about is sure Hell to be “stuck in” without the abilities now….also, well, I am not saying what else…you know better than I do! Yet, it’s a simple action – delete the OT22. LOL
Anette
You helped me catch myself at a hidden belief. Thanks. As you didn’t say you didn’t have those abilities now. If you don’t, however, you are in the best hands, Geir. You can simply sit down and do OTTR0….you may get unstuck in this way. May. Or ask Geir for a process. As Ron said scientology could solve the problems of scientology itself. This includes confronting the subject. Also, as you know, whatever you resist will stay with you. You may be stuck in that incident because you either resist it, or indulge (find pleasure) in it. If you succeed, you may regain the abilities back. In that case, you may succeed in teaching Geir how to be exterior with full perception, as this is one thing he would like to be able to do. LOL.
Marianne, I think Anette was kidding when she answered about a past life. LRH mentioned somewhere about there being levels up to OT 22 and I would guess that Anette was making a joke to start with when she started using OT 22 in posting comments.
You wrote, “As Ron said scientology could solve the problems of scientology itself. This includes confronting the subject. Also, as you know, whatever you resist will stay with you. You may be stuck in that incident because you either resist it, or indulge (find pleasure) in it.”
IMHO, every sentence in the above is a pearl of wisdom for anyone who is still suffering from Scientology, including the last sentence about being “stuck in that incident” if the incident is Scientology.
Marildi
“Anett was kidding”….yes, I got a flow like that too. I didn’t want any ARCx, however. As the mind can come up with any type of illusion.And what the truth is, I have no idea. She has. Thanks for the info about OT22 origin.
Correct, Marildi, I was just being ironic. 🙂
LRH did mentioned somewhere about there being levels up to OT22.
Yes, ironic and amusingly funny, I have to admit. 😀
Past-life OT22 is plausible through Ron’s Org Network, depending on your this lifetime age….
Valkov: ” . . . depending on your this lifetime age….”
Chris: Good to have you back Valkov! I’m confused about this comment. Maybe you are and maybe you aren’t in the COHA group that thinks considerations are senior to MEST. My question is why would Anette’s age be the keystone empirical factor determining whether a story about past life OT22 is believable? I mean, I get it, wanting to do the arithmetic and all. But that’s aquiescence to MEST, isn’t it?
Because the R.O.N.s were not established until the 1980s. Thus to be a past-life Ron’s Org OT22 one would need to have died after the Ron’s Orgs were operating and producing the CBR OT levels.
Unless you think there are ways of slipping around in various time streams. Perhaps you are an OT from the future?
Val: Perhaps you are an OT from the future?
Chris: You guessed!
So you can see how that OT’s who are cause over matter, energy, space and time would be cause over space and time, right? Ron said you might come out of session one day and walk down to the beach and see Conquistadors rowing ashore from 500 years ago. So I don’t think I misunderstood his intention regarding “cause over.” He meant that you can do these things in the objective sense.
PS: I’m not really a time traveller. (wink)
I do not think Valkov has ever claimed to be anything other than a MEST being.
OT22 was my old nick here.
Now that my full name is out I still keep the OT22 nick so it’s more convenient for OSA (Office of Special Affairs, the Intelligence Agency of the Church of Scientology) to keep track. Hi OSA! 🙂
Are they actually intelligent? Or that title for that group ’ intelligent’ is some kind of façade make believe? They using it in order to hide what? Hehehe
Eliz: Are they actually intelligent? Or that title for that group ’ intelligent’ is some kind of façade make believe? They using it in order to hide what? Hehehe
Dee: Good questions. I don’t think they are intelligent at all. It doesn’t take intelligence to hound, persecute, tell lies and spy on people covertly or overtly. Ironically they even make their own enemies to play this game with. Not very high on the scale is it or is it?
They are hiding their own crimes and do it well, plus paying all the attorney’s with the money the members pay. That’s my dime!
“That’s my dime!”
Chris: Ah! Up from a nickel? haha
Chris: Ah! Up from a nickel? haha
How about that? hehe
Anette: it’s more convenient for OSA (Office of Special Affairs, the Intelligence Agency of the Church of Scientology) to keep track. Hi OSA! 🙂
Yes, we must help them a bit since they are overburdened right now having 5 more fraud law suits thrown at them in Oklahoma involving Narconon, just read on the Underground Bunker. Plus a judge ordered them to give up the sect check files in another case.
Sorry, may have been off subject.
Plus a judge ordered them to give up the sect check files in another case: OUCH!
So much for the sanctity of confessional – or are these Narconon confessionals?
Maria: Plus a judge ordered them to give up the sect check files in another case:
This is the Laura DeCrescenzo forced-abortion lawsuit (CofS) and she gave permission, to like over a hundred “I’m not auditing you” files.
Maria: “Plus a judge ordered them to give up the sect check files in another case: OUCH!
So much for the sanctity of confessional – or are these Narconon confessionals?”
The Pc waived her right to privacy to use them as a proof of the brainwashing.!!!
Who would have guessed that?
Courage.
This is a furthermore – to my last post.
All this war with OSA and enemies (currently most ex scios now) is insane because they have the supposed tech to handle all the ARCx that are the basic cause. To much tech conflict from Ron, is my opinion plus a demented current leader.
yup! Good post.
Splog: “I found the exact opposite inside the church. Intolerance, unwillingness to consider other points of view, very little ability to grant beingness”
They are certain they posses the truth and therefore, the rest of the people are wrong. All the answers are fixed now (inside their minds). They do not have to think no more, they do not have to look no more.
Such state of absolute certainty is the ultimate trap all in itself.
It is an hypnotic state, turns the person into a robot, the spirit is trapped in a mechanic box of logic which seems to have all the answers.
Real freedom is the exact opposite: No fixed answers.
Rafael: “Real freedom is the exact opposite: No fixed answers.”
What a wonderful answer. Thank you very much for saying that.
Thank you and Iren, it was inspired by your comments 🙂
Rafael
“…..state of certainty….” Yes! Certain of WHAT? That automatically brings about duality. Dichotomy. So, conflict.
“No fixed answers”. Yes….there are instant responses in the NOW.
Do you do any “method” whatever ? I don’t mean to be personal….
Hi M 🙂
Mainly meditation, my favourites Vinnies KHTK Mindfulness, TROM (The games manual from Dennis Stephens) etc., etc (Whatever I can lay my hands on and try)
Rafael
Thanks!!! I love reading what you write! I didn’t try mindfulness, only read it on Vinnie’s blog.
You didn’t ask and it’s not an advice. I did True Meditation by Adyashanti. It is called “true” because it is not a technique. You can find it on the Internet. All others I have seen are methods. I am not against methods, as anybody any time can “wake up”, “get enlightened”, whatever. And also, whatever one chooses is in accordance with one’s resonance. I also like but just read others. Very interesting to see e.g. how and why Byron Katie’s Work works.
Also, I love watching how and why people “change” when they are with a person like Byron Katie, or Gangaji.
Rafael: Real freedom is the exact opposite: No fixed answers.
I agree with you and have seen that myself.
🙂
Splog: “In contrast, I found the exact opposite inside the church. Intolerance, unwillingness to consider other points of view, very little ability to grant beingness – these things were all rampant on the 3rd dynamic.”
Exactly, and all of your post was well said.
Anette: “. . . Because, if you change your mind, they wouldn’t touch you with a ten foot pole.”
Chris: It’s worse than that. Even when accused of frying any other fish, your Scientology friends will turn their backs. They don’t want even a whiff of uncleanliness in their space lest they be accused as well. My most bitter memory is that of my friends instantly turning their backs when I was comm eved. My best friend was the Qual Sec in my org and even he had no kind word or encouragement and this was before being found “guilty” of anything at all. Like in communist China, when accused, things will go easier on you if you confess.
So many interlocking iterations with that reality are ripped out that a person can be left feeling quite ruined. My best word of encouragement to you is to strive to embrace and to understand every nuance of that experience so that you may heal (and we do) and become wiser and not bitter. You are with one of the best guys I know to help encourage you through that process.
+1
Scientology: The ultimate crap.
I´m not bitter, well….maybe just a little 🙂
Rafael: “I´m not bitter, well….maybe just a little :-)”
Chris: I know you are joking, but I just want to say that I don’t think we need to sugar coat a bitter memory. We were there, now we’re here. Like you would say being in control of our emotions – we can be positive about ourselves, the future, even while referring to bitter memories — no big deal, it’s ok to do that. The iterations continue and those in the past quickly fade further into the past.
Well said Chris 🙂
I agree, Chris.
Thanks Alanzo. You should agree as a lot of that is mind that you’ve helped me see! LOL.
Don’t ever claim to have been helped by Alanzo.
Unless you wish to wear a hump on your back, walk with a limp, and be re-named “Igor”.
That bad?
Worse, actually. I decided not to mention the soiling of one’s self that comes about from “the curse”.
Anette: I know I am not alone. People who are or have been into Scientology. I know the screaming voices of pain in their minds. Thinking you are the only one being screwed over and over, again and again.
Fear. No one to talk to. Just put on a happy face pretending all is fine. Trying to shut off the silent screams.
You just have to live with that pain in silence as you are not allowed to look elsewhere for solutions. If you do, you lose everything – your job, family and friends. So you stay thinking it will get better. But it only gets worse!
Dee: Right, you are not alone. In reading your post I thought of what a person becomes, is or was – a slave!
The freeing of those bonds take time and communication with others who understand. 🙂
Let the sky fall
When it crumbles
We will stand tall
Face it all together
At skyfall
Love that! ❤
Aloneness is not loneliness. It is willingness to create, face and experience anything.
MT “” Aloneness is not loneliness. It is willingness to create, face and experience anything.””
Aloneness is not loneliness that is true, but what that statement has to do with: creating and experiencing?
We create-experience continually regardless we are alone or sitting in the Yankee Stadium. That is what we do… even in a crowd you still sitting alone and you still creating your own reality.. you make love but you still creating-experiencing your very own universe… Bodies can have closeness, be side by side.. that is solidity for the eyes to see, perceive.. but Marianne no spiritual entity is alone, or with somebody else: humans do that, because they believe in solidity
Elizabeth
Right, I used a wrong word….instead of aloneness I should have used “autonomy”, meaning that e.g. in the “middle of a conflict” I can see “peace” and create that….in other words when I experience an argument, I “confront” it and by this I am “creating” “peace”.
alone -ness is a condition a belief that no one is there and there are manny who when not seeing a body with their eyes beside their own they than believe that they are now alone… so that belief exist only because the eyes tricked the person into that belief and that is than a Assumption, a lie,
question: after creating ”peace” what has happened to that conflict which was there earlier?
Life simply goes on.
yes and no…. i have asked a question and again you have ignored it… You said you know everything what ever happens and you see into others universe too. well, prove that.. you say you know… well what happens to the earlier thingy.. mass-energy=item-thought, experience?
Elizabeth
I did not see your answer earlier, so I am answering it now.
E : “you said you know everything”
M : please refer me to the comment where I said that because I never did so…also I rarely
use the word KNOW, more often EXPERIENCE.
E: “you see into others universe too”
M: please refer me to where I said that….I can sense energy, just like anybody else, different forms, also tone and blow it, that’s all.
E: “what happens to the earlier thingy…mass-energy=item-thought, experience?
M: it evaporates, gone – that’s why I said life goes on.
Elizabeth, you are making statements like the above “you said you know everything”. May I ask you to always quote what I say word by word as you usually do, if you read any of my comments. Because what you are doing is a kind of making an opinion-conclusion and also looks like a kind of teaching method. I understand that you are doing that to help me look at an item deeper…that’s fine but please don’t make false statements as I am going to ignore them in the future. I never did that with anybody here, didn’t do it with you either.
Questions help, thanks for them. Also, when you write about your knowledge. Love both of them, when you do that. And thanks for the personal coms sometimes.!
At the (100% 🙂 ) risk of repeating myself, it is lazy thinking to accept, reject, defend or attack “Scientology” as a whole. There are multitudes of techniques and principles, individually of varying usefulness, and even then, not the same for each of us, and each can only be judged individually. As to the organization, which seeks to bring about complete acceptance of, and submission to, the whole package as they present it, that is another matter.
Dexter I am with your reality 100% +1 I hope you are well, doing well? Elizabeth
Amen.
“He then wrote “a person does not blow due Overts or Witholds. He blows only due to ARC BKs”.
“However, If any of this information ever became public,I would lose all control of the orgs and eventually Scientology as a whole”.signed “LRH”
Can someone tell me what the first sentence means in plain English? I am not concerned as much with the veracity of the statement or whether it was actually made, I just want to know what it means. I realize it might take a bit of explication, but could someone please indulge me? Thanks in advance.
People can be made to believe that they are entirely responsible for their overts and withholds. It is much more difficult to make them believe that they are entirely responsible for their upset.
One controls others by making them entirely responsible.
.
Except that doesn’t answer his question at all. Would someone care to actually answer his question and translate the above scientologeese to plain English? I am squeezed for time the next few days…
Jerome, I think there was a word left out – the word “to”. It should say “A person does not blow due TO overts or withholds. He blows only due to ARC breaks.”
Or is there some other word or words you don’t understand?
I guess he needs a full translation. Overt, withhold, ARC, ARC-BREAK. The works. It’s all gibberish to a non-scientologist.
Could be, Geir. But I don’t think he would even ask the question if it was completely incomprehensible to him. My guess is there’s some significance to it he doesn’t get – a skipped gradient of understanding. So I thought before I would go into a long explanation, I should first get a better idea of what his question is exactly.
He asked for a full explanation. So please go ahead.
Okay. I’ll just wait a bit, though.
In plain English, an “overt” is a harmful act and the overt becomes a “withhold” if it is hasn’t been disclosed. An ARC BK (break) is an upset. A blow is “an unauthorized departure” – i.e. leaving without first going through formal procedures as described in policy.
There was a Policy Letter (PL) titled “Blow-offs” where LRH (Hubbard) included as part of the idea of a blow that it was “sudden and relatively unexplained”. Added to that was the statement that “certainly one can treat people so badly that they have no choice but to leave.” However, the church basically ignores that last statement and treats everyone who leaves as having committed overts.
On top of it, there are other LRH references that say there are reasons for blows besides overts (and being treated badly) – including ARC breaks. Thus, the Bill Franks statement you quoted doesn’t really make sense.
Coincidentally, there was a whole discussion just recently about that quote, and it was pretty well debunked for a number of reasons. You can find that discussion here: https://backincomm.wordpress.com/2015/03/23/the-real-reason-people-leave-scientology/
Yes, Geir is exactly right. I was hoping for an explanation as to what this “revelation” implied. I read Dianetics in my teens in the late 80s. I thought it was pretty cool stuff and even tried to audit my mother who was a willing participant. I was lucky perhaps that I was in rural Iowa and there was no Internet so my interest never went beyond that. I, however, always found the story of Scientology intriguing and have read up about it a lot over the years (the organization etc. not a deep reading into its cosmology or too deeply into its method), but certainly nowhere near to the point of being an insider who knows – as Geir so eloquently put it – scientoligese.
It is indeed gibberish to me, and even your well meant attempts at explaining it left me confused. These terms come up when describing auditing sessions? Or a person’s behavior in general or what?
One example: “An ARC BK (break) is an upset”, okay, so what is an upset? I have never encountered the word upset as a noun outside of sports.
Really, I was hoping for a more general summation of what this supposed bombshell (debunked or or otherwise) implied.
So, the claimed LRH is saying that people make an unauthorized departure (which means leaving Scientology completely I assume?) because of ……. not because of …….. ??
It may be somewhat amusing to see that the only “explanations” you got was from two people trying instead to sell you something else – one an entirely different ideology and another a debunking 😊
Well now he has three, the last from an ex turned anti 🙂
I’ll try (this is going to be dull 🙂 ):
“He then wrote “a person does not blow due Overts or Witholds. He blows only due to ARC BKs”.
An “overt” is when you break or cross your own moral code; in Christian terms, it’s a sin. The full Scientology definition is rather more complex, but that will do fine for now. Overts are probably called that because like the regular English word, they are visible, or to some degree they are deliberately done
A “withhold” is the action of hiding the fact that you committed an overt.
Example: A kid steal a cookie from the jar. He is old enough to knew Mom said not to do it, and to know he did wrong. This is an overt. The kid thinks he ought to tell his Mom he took a cookie, but doesn’t for whatever reason. Now he has a withhold. (Keep in mind that Hubbard loved to make up English language rules as he went along – both of these words are used as nouns and verbs!)
ARC is an abbreviation for Affinity, Reality and Communication. According to Hubbard, these three things work together and reinforce each other. As an example, you talk to your freind (communication) about something you both like (reality). Your Affinity for each other increases, you both now like the other more.
An ARC Break (written ARC BK in the quote) is the reverse, when one or two or three of those components is lowered. This upsets people and they “have an “upset”. (Another example of Hubbard basterdizing the same word into more than one part of speech).
A “blow” is an “unauthorized departure from an area”, when a person breaks an agreement and just leaves. It can range from walking out on a spouse to leaving a job without resigning and lots of things in between, including leaving a session in the middle or leaving Scientology altogether.
It’s a major principle of Scientology (and entirely unproven) that a person will “blow” because of his own overts and withholds, because people are at heart basically good. As an example, the bookeeper is skimming cash off the top (an overt) and has to keep it secret (a withhold). On day her conscience will get the better of her (because she is basically good) and she will suddenly leave (blow) to protect the organization from her misdeeds.
So, all this looks great in theory (and does work to same degree in real life). Until you understand exactly what Hubbard was really doing with it. The overt is not actually something the person does to cross his own moral code, it’s something he did to transgree the *church’s or Hubbard’s moral code*. A blow is only unauthorized when Hubbard or the church didn’t let it happen, the person’s own feeling on the matter do not matter. It’s all a system of control, to keep people where Hubbard or the church wants them by making them guilty of something, and it’s never the church’s fault where the church did something to the person that upset them to the point they couldn’t take it and leave. If this seems to you like how sociopaths or narcissists act, then you are exactly right.
The quote is something Hubbard reputedly wrote to two of his lieutenants, and it’s a big deal to Scientologists. They have been trained to believe what Hubbard said about overts and withholds causing blows, and yet here he is saying that it isn’t true, and it really is upsets that make people blow (i.e. it’s not the person’s fault, it is the church’s fault)
Like I said, to most Scientologists this is a big deal, almost on the order of a Muslim religious leader saying it’s actually OK to draw a picture of the Prophet, or a Christian minister saying that Easter is just an illustration and you don’t have to believe in the Resurrection.
Make sense?
My second comment was posted after splog’s explication, which I hadn’t see yet. Splog’s explication was pretty good. Thanks for that.
Yes, splog managed to answer your question. Nice.
Thanks Jerome.
I see I had a typo, the second paragraph where I quote what Hubbard supposedly write should nto be there. I copy-pasted it when typing to have a handy reference of the sentence itself and forgot to delete it before submitting 🙂
I thought I’d be able to describe the whole thing easily in a paragraph or two. Hah! No chance – almost a full page. This scientology stuff is full of crazy where nothing is as it seems and the true meaning is different to what you think.
Really, that last paragraph of mine makes it seem that a statement that a layman could digest the import of what this (supposed) revelation meant to a Scientologist) could be summed up in a sentence, which I doubt is true. If it’s not too much trouble, I was hoping for a little more explication. If it is too much trouble, time consuming, exasperating or whatever, no worries. I am happy to see I got the response I did so far.
This is a complete transgression but it reminds me of spending time with my sumo fan friends. I live in Japan and am a big sumo wrestling follower. I have a friend who loves to bring new people to see sumo, but she can’t divorce herself from the terminology in her explanations. She’ll rattle on: “Yesterday, so and so got a kinboshi.” “What’s a kinboshi?” “Well, kinboshi means gold star, but it’s when a maegashira beats a yokozuna, some people think it can be someone in san’yaku, but no it has to be a maegashira” I will look at her confused friend and do my best. “A yokozuna is a sumo grand champion, and he is so good that he rarely loses a wrestling bout, and even when he does it is usually to someone ranked just below him (in the san’yaku ranks) and only rarely to an untitled wrestler. So when an untitled wrestler (or maegashira) does commit such an “upset” (ha, that word came up) it is a big deal, and is called a kinboshi/gold star.
Of course, as Scientology has an entire cosmology with it’s own lifestyle and terminology, it is levels above this example, but it still made me think of it.
A relevant analogy 😄
I just realized I use the word transgression about when I meant digression.The above exchanged got me confused. Now even usual terminology is mucking me up. 🙂