Fair Game & forced Disconnection. So what?

The Church of Scientology is infamous for their Fair Game practice and their forced disconnection.


But so what? What’s the big deal?

I mean, this is nothing more than the daily routine in the US and most other countries in the world. With the immigration laws of countries like UK, Norway and the US, families are regularly torn apart. And citizens in scores of countries are fair gamed and worse for speaking their mind. And people go into fits about the Church of Scientology doing this on a much smaller scale and being much nicer about it. US is regularly going apeshit to “protect their rights” or freedom. Scientology is doing the same on a comparably microscopic scale. Put into this proportion, I can’t help wonder what all the fuss is about.

225 thoughts on “Fair Game & forced Disconnection. So what?

  1. Now, that is a good question. Maybe a deep question. What’s your answer, Geir?

    1. But the amount and strength of the outcry against the church seems so out of proportion compared to the outcry against the far more prevalent and horrible practices of most nations. When people talk about Scientology in the media – fair game and disconnection is very often mentioned – or it is the main theme. The media coverage of such gross human rights violations in the US constitutes a microscopic portion of the media coverage of the US.

      1. Scale matters. Things on a smaller scale can be tackled better. When the scale is too large the situation tends to get ignored. That is how I see it.

        Sent from my iPad


        1. It is also the fact that when a country so over-zealously defends it’s rights, it is often accepted and thought of as appropriate, or even good. But when the CoS does the same, then it’s all bad, Bad, BAD!

          1. Maybe not now, I’m not sure, but there was a time when you yourself were quite vocal about the CoS being bad, bad bad – out of proportion to much worse things going on in the world. So what was your own reason?

            1. I have to a much greater degree adopted the Fuck It attitude and through this post and others would like to inspire others in the same direction.

            2. Okay, got it, Geir. And do you feel the same way now about LRH? I’m sure you’ve also noticed how utterly obsessed some people are about his discreditable deeds, as if he had been a HItler or the like.

              Some even insist there wasn’t EVER anything good in Scientology, that it produces nothing but bad – and that LRH’s intentions from the start were never for the good of anybody but himself.

              Others will reluctantly admit some minor good, but even then they minimize it as much as possible by putting it in categories like “he stole that from someone else anyway,” or “that benefit can be attained elsewhere,” etc.

              And of course they claim that they’re putting all their time and energy into this crusade because they want to protect others – in spite of the fact there are much worse things to protect people from than a dead man and an already quite marginalized and dying organization.

              So, my question is – not just with the CoS but also LRH and the tech of Scientology, don’t you think these people “doth protest too much”?

            3. Great. For me, it’s even worse than boring – it’s a real detriment to continue an outpouring of negativity that has been stated more than enough times to serve any valid purpose. At this point, it does nothing more than add to the hatred in the universe, if you know what I mean.

            4. This is the type of red herring that sounds pretty but which masks something ugly. It’s hard to confront evil Marildi, even LRH found it hard to do. Noticing something wrong and calling bullshit on it does not “add hatred to the world.” And for as long as people with your penchant for shameless promotion of everything LRH continue to do so, and when it’s done within earshot of me, I guess I will call bullshit on it. This next month will be 22 years since my oldest daughter’s mother decided that her family was evil and called bullshit on us at the behest of her Sea Org handlers. Maybe when she finally calls bullshit on LRH or maybe when she is dead, or maybe when I’m dead, I’ll let it go. Until then, those lies about the virtues of LRH and Scientology and really about how a for-profit organization founded by a for-profit and a deadbeat dad and lying-escapist-bigamist like LRH should enjoy special religious freedom to mind-fuck anything or anyone within earshot are not really welcome in my own space. Don’t hate me for speaking up. Last time I checked, this was a natural right that I am choosing to enjoy. You would want me to have that right, wouldn’t you Marildi?

            5. It is knowledge that matters and not the man. 

              Marildi, you are obsessed about the man. Sorry for this evaluation.


            6. Not at all, Vin. My attention isn’t on the man. It’s the knowledge that matters most to me, by far. But some people ceaselessly try to discredit the knowledge by discrediting the man, and they no doubt have an effect on some people by doing so – which is unfortunate because knowledge should stand on its own merits.

              My view of LRH is that for whatever reason, he went into an about-face at some point in time – but it’s his original insights and methodologies that I give great credit to.

      2. Things with the attributed value of “good” should be under much more scrutiny than things with the attributed value “bad”. Especially when basically good people are associated with the “good” thing. It’s the betrayal factor. We expect “bad” to betray us and literally do not react to betrayals by “bad”. Betrayal by “(purported) good” is offensive to our basic natures.

        Scientology, DM style, has now descended into the value of “bad”, so it is hardly alarming – to us, the ex’es – to hear of new issues of betrayal, even though it is still disgusting. To the rest of the world it purports to be good. Even if many of the people and ideals are good, actions such as disconnection are so repugnant that they strike deep into the mind of reviled things. Disconnection cannot be condoned regardless of comparative value to other atrocities.

        Yes, Alanzo, all current betrayals may be traced back to attitudes and orders of Ron, but there is a world of difference in overall character between Ron and DM. DM does not have the general progress of humankind in mind. Ron did.

          1. “The bigger the ARC, the bigger the ARC break.”

            True enough! Just wait until you have your own! It is quite a rip in one’s universe. But then the thunderstorm passes and the Sun comes out again.

          2. I love these cliches used by Marildi.

            Here is a question:

            Theta is Static, yet it is made up of affinity, reality and communication that vary over a wide scale. How can a static be made up of components that vary?


            1. Vin, have you ever noticed that their is no feud like that between brothers?

            2. I am very close to my brothet. There is no feud between us. I have also observed mild disagreements between other brothers that get sorted out. There have been long and deep feuds between brothers too. So, it is all over the spectrum.

            3. The point is that when brothers DO have a feud, the feelings are comparatively far more intense.

            4. We’ve already had that discussion, Vinnie. I’ll sum it up with this quote:

              “Thetan (spirit) is described in Scn as having no mass, no wave-length, no energy and no time or location in space EXCEPT by consideration or postulate.” (FOT – my emphasis in caps)

            5. The question I would have for you is whether your views are strictly based on the scriptures of Hinduism – which would be fine but would be religious beliefs rather than personal knowingness.

              My view is based on personal experience, a direct perception that there does exist “awareness” apart from anything one may be aware OF along with it since there can be awareness in and of itself.

              Just because a person has not experienced something doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Can you see that? Or do you feel that if you yourself haven’t experienced something, it can’t possibly exist?

            6. My views are based on all that I am. I look at consistency in what I come across, and meditate on inconsistencies that bother me. It doesn’t really matter where the knowledge comes from. I aim for the resolution of inconsistencies.

              What I write is my present state of understanding. There can be a still better understanding.


        1. “DM does not have the general progress of humankind in mind. Ron did.”

          Yes, this is the clarion call of the “Independent Scientologist.” I do not think this is true. Others will think what they want.

  2. I agree with you, Geir.

    My own country (the US), is immensely more suppressive to the civil rights of MANY more people than the Church of Scientology can ever presently suppress right now.

    So which should we spend our energies on?

    The ones we can effectively expose right now because of our experience, or the one which has IMMENSELY more critics in positions of the press and actual power who can argue for the rights of the people that the US suppresses?

    I have been presented with this problem before.

    So I started up another blog to address the onslaught against the civil rights by my own country against the rights of people all over the world.

    I gave it a name that it could be recognized by:



  3. The communication here and exScio groups is based on scientology so naturally scientology is what is talked about.
    Disconnection no matter where it is nit a good workable way to handle anything. As scio advertises with communication can handle all problems. Disconnectionseems out of place.
    Your thinking direction seems to be that because it us bad elswhere whats the big deal. As if elsewhere us the guide line for all decisions.
    Go back to scientology and help clear the planet. Whats the big deal. There are fucked up group’s and organisation’s all over the world. Why leave? What’s the big deal? Stay take the shit? Dont fight back?
    The true love of something is what determines the size if the fight you see.
    IMHO 🙂

    1. See my comment to Vin regarding the disproportionate outcry related to media stories. Your post is otherwise a Straw Man 😉

      1. I am from Turkey – don’t know what is meant by straw man 🙂 .

        “When a country so over-zealously defends it’s rights, it is often accepted and thought of as appropriate, or even good”

        It is the same in the CO$. Some accept it and some don’t. If communication can solve all problems (as sold by the co$) then disconnection is an admition to the failure of their said technology .


        1. Yes Scientology is a subject full of such contradictions because of their absolutist statements.


  4. COS seems to be created in the image of America. It is an American phenomenon. It has spread throughout the world as other things American.

    COS is tolerated most in America, and not so much in Europe, and very little in Asia.

    There is much in common between COS and America.

  5. How about this (though simplified):
    Source – Spirit – Flow – Thought – Soul ( the spirit in a human) – Body
    How about a dispersal of Thought (as originally one)?
    To connect or disconnect one needs to ‘i ‘dentify oneself as something, which can be a ‘thought’ ( ‘me’ as a separate entity)
    or a body.
    Seeing the ‘same’ ONE ‘spirit’ in another, only the activities
    are different…

  6. Norway unfriendly with immigrants? It depends where they are from. At least, I was treated fair. About US Government and Scientology Church, what about taxes? A reason government close its eyes on Sci abuses can be some taxes or oficial bribering, who knows…

  7. Indeed, why single out the CoS for these practices? I sometimes think that those ex-scientologists who love to target their former group are blind to the similar cruelties that can occur in most communities. Everywhere, people seem to need enemies real or imaginary if they are to bond into groups. The ethologist Konrad Lorenz wrote about this in his book On Aggression [Das Sogenannte Böse] – his chapter on rat packs, which will attack any rat that lacks the familiar group smell, is eerily reminiscent of the dynamics of some human groups.

    The real ugliness of the CoS is not that is eccentrically different to other corporations, churches, gangs and nations. But rather that it is drearily similar to them. Disappointing, when it once promised to be a new start for humankind.

    1. Well, thinking of the Church of Scientology as a ‘gang’… that’s a new one!


    2. “But rather that it is drearily similar to them. Disappointing, when it once promised to be a new start for humankind.”

      So right David. By its own definition of WOG, Scientology is not even trying anymore, if indeed it ever was more than a shell of PR encasing a putrid avaricious center.

  8. We all confront those things which we think we can handle. But we also create our problems so we can have something to handle. My problems or our problems are not every body else’s problems either. Believe it or not there are people on this planet who have never experienced the problem of disconnection or physical abuse. I do believe that what we put or attention on and decide to educate ourselves with creates our experience.

    Change can only happen from within, and if there is no peace of mind we will always have wars, abuse, disconnection, abuse, fair game, etc.

    This game of being human on a tiny planet out on the edge of a galaxy is so petty. If the Earth fell into the Sun it would be like dropping a grain of sand into a bucket of water. And who would miss us? Would the Universe shake? Nope!

  9. Yes. Most -if not all- hostile stuff done in COSes have been done by countries and other groups. I quietly laugh some times when a person supports another hostile group while he bashes at the COS. The COS didn’t learn it’s controlling techniques now, by SCN. Those are old.

    The difference with most such groups and SCN is that it can reach deep inside a person. It can be more efficient in doing that.

      1. 🙂 Yes. Many can be the systems wherein you are not allowed to talk. But to not be allowed to even THINK (for example, think the group is wrong in one way or another) so that it wont read on a meter…You can be put in a position wherein you modify your own thoughts, to fit in the group’s allowed thoughts.

        I wonder how many members of the COS, don’t keep their intergrity out of their own will or so that it wont read on a sec check.

      2. Maybe I should had swapped ‘SCN’ with ‘Most present religions’. You know about that guy called ‘God’. He is everywhere and he knows everything. He can know all your thoughts and deeds. And if you don’t live your life according to his rules, eternal suffering awaits. So, the result can be similar as with SCN –thought modification, action modification etc.

        I’m not saying that, while bashing all religions and religions branches everywhere and every time. I think deep down you make what you want out of anything –including SCN. But I think you are familiar with that viewpoint in christianity: ‘God the punisher’. I kind of think of a ‘God’ too, but I think he is not a he (nor a she). And generally has nothing to do with human attitude like an appetite for revenge. And it’s rather a field of exploration for me, than a reason to suffer or make others suffer.

        Finally, the only thing that differentiates that kind of COS from that kind of christianity is the e-meter –the more scientific approach. They’re just copy cats.

        And about sec checks: It’s vastly different to use it to spot an actual dishonest intention to harm, while you are honest and don’t intend to harm, and to use it to have somebody passively agree with what you want.

    1. * I laugh at the contradiction, not that disconnection etc are funny.

      And there have been more harsh systems than that of the COS. How about getting beaten, humiliated and imprisoned or killed for not totally covering your body in black, or daring to say something against the state? In the final analysis, one has a choice to join and stay inside that COS or not. I’m implying there are cases where that choice is forbidden.

      1. That can be a case. ‘Independent’ can be just a label. You can go on doing what you did in the COS because ‘all that’s wrong with the COS is DM’.

        Still you have a choice how to go about it. I haven’t met that many independent groups to have a good view.

  10. Your OP is appreciated for it’s salient truth, Geir. Though for me, just one thing really juts out loud and clear about this comparison:

    Fair enough, we are comparing govt.and state, ‘treatment’ alongside that of the CO$, and your view of -‘what’s the big deal?’ — therefore makes sense!

    However, I believe the special attention of the media, stems from the fact that we see the cruel betrayal and dehumanised treatment of tens of thousands of worshipers/ believers of a CHURCH, by a PSYCHOPATHIC MEGALOMANIAC ( who leads it), sets it apart quite ‘dramatically’, purely on the basis of the behavior EXPECTED from each institution. Do you see this gross ‘out-point’?

      1. Point well taken spyros! They (the media, and CO$) of course, don’t give a rat’s ass about ANY good being done, except towards their rating$ and/or profits. Bottom lines, that’s all!

        1. Yes. I suppose the media play their role in the game. Despite their own intentions (some trees), the intention of some good or bad Scientologists (some more tress), there is also a more general picture (the forest). I think that SCN as generality got bashed so as to protect people from experiencing the black side. It’s even in KSW 1 that this would happen.

          Although I have, I don’t see any reason to argue with anyone anymore. I can state my opinions and experiences and talk about the potential –some good and some bad. But if one experiences only good, or only bad, or bad with ‘good’ coating, my opinions wouldn’t matter. It seems that the last ones that will leave the COS will be the serial abusers. It’s their hard luck.

  11. Comparatively, it is a tempest in a teapot. But is our tempest and our teapot so it means more to those who were inside at one time.
    A far bigger and nastier tsunami of evil is the banking industry, to name just one.

    1. Very true. After helping Miscavige by buying services from the CoS after his takeover, I share some responsibility for ending the mess.

  12. Let me elaborate on the OP:

    John: “OMG!! There are pickpockets in this city!!”

    Peter: “Yeah, I know…”

    John: “But that’s HORRIBLE!!!

    Peter: “Yeah…”

    John: “But aren’t you OUTRAGED??”

    Peter: “Not really.”

    John: “What?? Why NOT??? And you know what – the police isn’t even serious about doing something about it!! OMG!!””

    Peter: “Well, there are crimes going on that is far worse and more important for the police to tackle.”

    John: “Sure, there are worse crimes! But you cannot seriously be saying that since there are worse, crimes – that pickpocketing isn’t something that we should take seriously! I mean, people are loosing their valuables. Precious jewellery is stolen! There are even reports of kids having been robbed of their teddy bears for Christ’s sake!! You can’t seriously not be serious about these horrible, horrible crimes! Gosh man! This is bad, Bad , BAD!”

    Peter: “Man, I think it’s a tad disrespectful of you to unravel so thoroughly about this when other people are suffering from crimes that are far, far worse. It’s great if you want to do something about the pickpocketing, but please stop over-reacting like this.”


      1. Most cogent line: “It’s great if you want to do something about the pickpocketing, but please stop over-reacting like this.”

    1. Maybe each one tries to repair his own stuff. Just maybe. If I was some violent woman-abuser in past life, I might become a passionate feminist in next lifetime. Or at least I’ve read something of that sort.

      1. I didn’t mean ‘passionate’ sexually. But rather kinda hostile towards men.

          1. Yes. Either way, war-ing cannot be good. It’s only better -temporarily- than to sit and get beaten, the way I see it. But why stick with it forever…

          2. To more clearly echo your OP reflections perhaps, than I did earlier: “WTF is wrong with these people?” 🙂

      2. “Maybe each one tries to repair his own stuff.”

        Good point, Spyros. But after a while, you’d think they would have a cognition and realize the charge isn’t dissipating and that they are fixated.

        1. Only if you know you are creating it willingly. If you have ‘reasons for’, you don’t assume responsibility. The ‘reasons’ make you do it. You make the reasons make you do it.

        2. And it depends what each person does to repair, if he tries to repair. If I mugged you (no, I wont 😛 ) and then cut my hand off and called it bad, I don’t think it would make anything better. If I warned you about other muggers it would be closer –to protecting you. But there is a catch. You experience your own creations. Why need protection, if there is no danger? We should make some…

          1. Don’t be in a hurry. I said it from the same viewpoint that I’d say ‘Why need auditing, if no case? We should make some’ 😛 So it works both ways. From a pan… point of view you put the opposite vector there.

          2. Spyros: “You experience your own creations.”

            That is a truth that would make sense to someone of a fairly high level of responsibility, which I am sure you know. 😛

            A basic piece of tech that probably applies to a lot of people is based on the phenomenon known as ““FALSE DATA PRONE”:

            “Some people are prone to accepting false data.This stems from overts committed prior to the false data being accepted. The false data then acts as a justifier for the overt.

            “An example of this would be a student studying past Mis-Us on a subject, cheating in the exam and eventually dropping the subject entirely. Then someone comes along and tells him that the subject is useless and destructive. Well, he will immediately grab hold of this datum and believe it, as he needs something to justify his earlier overts.

            “This actually gets into service facsimiles as the person will use the false data to make the subject or other people wrong. So if you see someone who is very prone to accepting false data on a particular subject or in general, the answer is to get the prior overts pulled. Then the person will not need to justify his overts by accepting any false data that comes his way.”

            1. “Some people are prone to accepting false data.This stems from overts committed prior to the false data being accepted. The false data then acts as a justifier for the overt.”

              This is nonsense.

            2. LRH: “An example of this would be a student studying past Mis-Us on a subject, cheating in the exam and eventually dropping the subject entirely. Then someone comes along and tells him that the subject is useless and destructive. Well, he will immediately grab hold of this datum and believe it, as he needs something to justify his earlier overts.”

              Except if you are LRH. When LRH failed his college courses and dropped out after his freshman year, that was because the college didn’t understand study or how to teach subjects which weren’t worth learning. Later when his math doesn’t add up, it is because he “. . . has risen above the bank. . . ” and what is true for him is true. LRH was expert at describing his own psychosis and then ascribing it to others. Once you get this, LRH’s claptrapnever looks the same as it did when we took his words on faith.

            3. This is what I mean, the following quote from LRH describes him personally all the way.:

              “This actually gets into service facsimiles as the person will use the false data to make the subject or other people wrong. So if you see someone who is very prone to accepting false data on a particular subject or in general, the answer is to get the prior overts pulled. Then the person will not need to justify his overts by accepting any false data that comes his way.”

            4. Marildi: “Spyros: ‘You experience your own creations.’ That is a truth that would make sense to someone of a fairly high level of responsibility, which I am sure you know. 😛

              Chris: There’s nothing wrong with this statement by Spyros. A “high level of responsibility” is not required to understand what he wrote. I don’t understand why you are chiding him but the passive aggression is clear to me. This latest outpouring of quotes from your guru is interesting to me. What occurred with you while you were gone?

            5. Yes. In the presence of ser facs, overts, motivator hunger and generally irresponsibility anything can be used to shift responsibility.

              In talking about SCN, there can be cases of blame, protection and even help or mere communication.

              The datum that one talks ‘against’ (expresses disagreement) SCN only because of overts, was based on own overts, on behalf of the COS. It was an effort to conceal overts (aka witholds).

              We should differentiate between analysis for the purpose of improvement, and attack for the purpose to destroy. After all, if you inhibit the first, you can get the second –failed help…then overts.

              I’d leave punishers of all kinds and factions ‘alone’, as ‘a punisher punishes himself’.

            6. “I’d leave punishers of all kinds and factions ‘alone’, as ‘a punisher punishes himself’.”

              So true, Spyros. I think that’s the essence of what is being said in this 3-1/2 minute video:

            7. I kind of avoid getting into discussion about who has the overts, as it can become something like “You make overts, thus I’m the effect of them”. Which is silly, as if you are OK with your own stuff, the overts of others can’t reach you. To be the effect of the overts of others indicates own out-ethics, I think, as it means that you pull in motivators. In an unethical situation, you pull in motivators to stop yourself.

              O/W as well as any case shouldn’t be used to point out case in anybody. After all you don’t point out any truth. Case is the lies one creates. That’s what I think LRH found most wrong about psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis as evaluation of case, is the auditor’s code in reverse.

            8. Spyros: “…if you are OK with your own stuff, the overts of others can’t reach you. To be the effect of the overts of others indicates own out-ethics.”

              To quote Valkov: “Scientology is what you make it. Look in the mirror.”

            9. M, as much as I’d like to agree, I don’t mean it the same way V does. For me cause and effect doesn’t only occur in one’s own ‘world of thoughts’. And a motivator could be an engram as well as a rock that’s falling onto one’s head. So then ‘SCN is what you make it’ sounds ok, but then that’s true for everything else. There’s just no ‘good reason’ to put opponents there. Responsibility could be assumed for SCN as well as anti-SCN stuff, and everything else. The notion that SCN tech is about improving 1D, can be a game condition by itself. It can be used antagonistically against other Ds.

            10. Spyros, I couldn’t agree more with what you wrote above. What Valkov said in a recent comment was just an example that came to mind. However, I don’t at all have the idea the Scn tech is just about improving the 1D, even though some people have tried to interpret it that way.

              I happen to believe that each person’s thoughts and feelings affect not just themselves but other people and the world in general. We’re all connected – like the entangled particles in quantum physics (maybe exactly that way). And a negative or positive outflow or frame of mind contributes accordingly to the overall level of well-being – or lack of it.

              This can be seen up close in a small group quite commonly. Someone who is very negative will bring the group down and make them less effective. Whereas,a more cheerful person brings up everyone’s ability to think and act more positively – and come up with positive solutions..

              I would even go so far as to say that what each and every person “puts out” literally contributes to Reality as it evolves. In fact, our feelings and intentions are what create the universe we share. Radical, huh? 😛

            11. Yes, you’re quite crazy to think that you can have an impact onto the world, instead of trying to adapt.

              You said “I don’t at all have the idea the Scn tech is just about improving the 1D”. I didn’t phrase what I wanted to say correctly, before. I meant auditing in specific, not the whole SCN. Of course, the SCN orgs as a whole, were supposed to impact the world.

              Let me give you an example of what I think. Let’s say in 2d: Romeo and Julie fight. Romeo sees in Julie that she is critical, pissed off and generally pretty ‘negative’. He thinks that it’s because of her O/Ws or other types of case.

              If Romeo’s case was in perfect shape, would he experience that by Julie? And by that I mean would Julie fight him?

              Even if Romeo keeps his TRs etc perfectly, isn’t the fact that Julie fights him, and he is the effect of it (his 2d is not doing well) his own case?

              My idea of ‘own case’ is different than the strictly 1D case, as I think you can experience it in all Dynamics. Another example of that would be a PTS. He violates his intergrity and his self determinism –does things he doesn’t want to do (overts), and doesn’t communicate (at least not the truth) about it. So he is PTS. So then he has a continuous ‘out ethics’ and so then he tries to stop himself. Let’s say he is accident-prone. If a car hits his car or something, it wont be necessarily because his drives his car uncarefully. It’s his intention to stop himself that makes that happen. It makes the whole scenery happen.

              Same with SCN. People see DM and other ‘external’ counter intentions and fight back. But I think here is a lesson to be learned (something to be as-ised) that hasn’t been learned. SCN seems to be pulling in motivators, to me. It takes self criticism to resolve, and better, direct perception. That’s what LRH meant that if we do our jobs well we don’t get attacks by the press, the police etc. If we don’t invite motivators, they don’t occur. That’s 3d responsibility. It’s not fundraising to spend money on trials and fight others like psychiatrists. Fighting means irresponsibility by -at least- 50% as per LRH. You take responsibility for self, but not for the other.Well that implies you can take responsibility for the other too! And that means no fighting. During those IAS events where they raise funds, somebody should ask “What do we do wrong?” instead of “How can we thoroughly not-is the SPs that we invite to his us?” A nice reference about that is a process in the Ability Congress. That process is about handling trouble with ‘other’ terminals, such as a wife, or anybody else, one would consider ‘another’.

            12. Spyros, I take it that the first line of your post is sarcasm. 😛

              You wrote: “Even if Romeo keeps his TRs etc perfectly, isn’t the fact that Julie fights him, and he is the effect of it (his 2d is not doing well) his own case? My idea of ‘own case’ is different than the strictly 1D case, as I think you can experience it in all Dynamics.”

              Yes, absolutely. This comes under the category of pan-determinism – taking the viewpoints of others as one’s own – which is a high state of case. That’s not just your idea but LRH’s too. 😉

              You also wrote: “Another example…If a car hits his car or something, it won’t be necessarily because his drives his car uncarefully. It’s his intention to stop himself that makes that happen. It makes the whole scenery happen.”

              That’s what I’m talking about too when I say our thoughts and intentions go out into the universe and create the reality that comes about.

              Now, as for the last part of your post – that’s the CoS you’re talking about. A whole different kettle of fish. 😛

              (Btw, I’ll be joining in on some Mothers’ Day activities soon so I may not be able to reply again until later.)

            13. Yes, I meant that as per psychology, the normal thing is to adopt. And hey don’t be over-imaginative. 😛

              You said: “Yes, absolutely. This comes under the category of pan-determinism”
              Yes, I think Pan…is always present, unless it isn’t. I mean Pan- is the truth, the Other- is additive. In the beginning of an activity with others, things are usually alright, unless there are dishonest intentions from the beginning. Even you may not be aware of being fully at cause, there is no Other-Determinism involved, to say the least. Then with this and that the dwindling spiral can occur…I’m saying this to take out that idea I used to carry that ‘I need to go OT 43534 to be myself’. No. 😛

              Enjoy mother’s day 🙂

            14. To quote Chris, “Malarkey, that style of introvertive comment has no holds nor effect on me anymore. Don’t bother about my mirror. Look in your own.”

            15. Marildi wrote:

              But after a while, you’d think they would have a cognition and realize the charge isn’t dissipating and that they are fixated.

              This has nothing to do with “dissipating charge” on one’s own “case”.

              That is a selfish, irresponsible and delusory quest that LRH got you going on, and you obviously are still stuck in it.

              This has to do with a Founder who created a toxic spiritual deception right out here in the objective world which tells people objectively false lies in order to take everything of monetary value from them that they have, and then to enslave them for the rest of their lives under a billion year indentured servitude “Sea Org contract”. And that’s just the top level. There are many other levels of deceit and real harm beneath that one.

              That is no match for a Nazi BlitzKreig, or the wholesale destruction of private property on the Internet, or an American Shock and Awe campaign, or the destruction of civil rights in the West.

              But it does exist here in the real world – and not in anybody’s “case”.

              There is a group which lies to people in order to “help” them, and those lies can be exposed using the Internet to warn the public so that they won’t be harmed by the toxic spiritual deception that is Scientology.

              It can and is being exposed without catastrophizing.


              And fewer and fewer people are being harmed by them.

              No more.

              No less.


            16. Al, I had in mind those people who are genuinely blowing off steam – not you. For you it isn’t about that.

              This “war” you’re fighting is never going to be over for you as long as there are people who are impressed with the high-sounding but specious rhetoric you write, as well as people who like to jump on the bandwagon.

              No, I’m afraid there’s too much “glory” in it for you to have a cognition about your true interest, I’m afraid.

              Oh, and that blog post you put up as a CYA front is laughable. The half dozen or so very short, glib blog posts you posted over the last several months are less in content than you do in a single day in the various blogs you post on. In fact, some of your single posts are even longer than that whole blog of yours.

              I think you should get a new game, Al.

            17. Alonzo has the least specious arguments toward cults of any that I read. It is a red herring argument to turn around the high sounding and fallacious rhetoric of Hubbard as though there is a problem with Alonzo’s argument. Alonzo doesn’t misrepresent scientology, Hubbard does. This is an example of the difference between a belief and a fact.

            18. Yeah Al, this lady’s pretty much called your bluff here, hey? Then again, it’s plain enough (for us to see) that you have a definite agenda, on this or any other blog. History? I have a pretty good memory, and see that in spite of all your dalliances with various ism’s and ologies, none seems to have shaken out the broken gears/valve-springs, bent con-rods, burned clutch plates, and brake linings, sheared off drive shafts, that somehow ‘propel’ you.
              ……Nope, I’m afraid you may need a thorough overhaul, man!
              If not, instead of just crashing into other ‘people’, you’ll wind up going over the cliff, all ‘alanzo’ instead!!

            19. Marildi wrote:

              Oh, and that blog post you put up as a CYA front is laughable.

              What blog post was that?

              Are you admitting to the world right here ion Geir’s blog that you are a secret admirer of Alanzo’s Blog?


        1. I’m totally fascinated, yet again Geir, by what happens, each time you throw a bone into the frey! …. Woof, woof.yap,yap, sniff,sniff.yap,yap, sniff,sniff,sniff,sniff, (dig,dig,dig) sniff,sniff,) yap,yap sniff,sniff, (diggity-dig, diggity-dig) howl, howwwllllll, arrrroooooo’ arrooo, sniffff, sniff, woof,yap, etc, etc

          Translation: “There must be something significant to this all? I just gotta find it! Now where did it go? What was it again?? No that’s not it! Hey, Fido — quit digging in my space!… I got there first!! Now fuck off, before I bite you on the ass!! ….. 🙂

          1. hi ray !

            inspired by your comment (still having it in my space this morning)
            i asked my students about their favourites of this week. This is what they came up with in a row:

            i keep asking them each week what they have been listening to
            and they always come up with something new besides their old
            favourites…it’s a joy to learn from them and see how they are
            still in tune with the fireworks of life…living and enjoying it!

            1. Hello my Sister! That’s what I love hearing, touching, feeling! Speaking of which– here’s something to really ‘rattle’ the senses! — tell me what you think — Alizee Laisla Bonita – You Tube
              L, Ray 🙂

            2. Great hey? here’s something calculated to get the male juices flowing ‘harder’, if you get the drift. Alizee -Moi lolita -Live (HQ)
              ….and something more creative : Eurythmics – There must be an Angel – (Live 1987)

            3. yeeah, two great songs, i did not know them…i decided not to
              put them here as i’d rather let the boys search for them on the
              Net and/or in Life…as the Net is a ‘via’, perhaps Life is a better
              option as it is of ‘all possibilities, if you see what i mean…

            4. Of course, sweetheart! It’s just when one climbs aboard that incredible wave length of aesthetic beauty, one is brought ‘fully’ alive in ALL of the senses of enjoyment possible! (55 of them!)

    2. John here is unable to evaluate the importance of various crimes – stupidity has been defined as a monotone evaluation of importance. Peter has enough intelligence to see that stealing teddy bears is less important than murder.

      I’ve seen the same thing in taking surveys: “Which of these five problems has the highest priority in your region?” “They’re all top priority”.

    1. Ever talking the talk Vinay! So tell me then, when is the last time YOU REALLY helped someone, with real apathy, loss, fear, anger, or stuck in a hostile outlook, or saddled with inability, of one kind or another ? The Question, in case you are intending to dodge, dismiss, or damn it, (as in an overt/covert attack), –stands!!

      –When is the last time YOU REALLY helped someone with…?

      1. Ray wrote:

        Ever talking the talk Vinay! So tell me then, when is the last time YOU REALLY helped someone, with real apathy, loss, fear, anger, or stuck in a hostile outlook, or saddled with inability, of one kind or another ? The Question, in case you are intending to dodge, dismiss, or damn it, (as in an overt/covert attack), –stands!!

        When was the last time you did?

        Are you saying that you helped them with Scientology?

        Why do you think that getting a person stuck in an imaginary “case”, as implanted in you by L Ron Hubbard, was helping them?


        1. ‘Vengeance’, the scar tissue remaining after some ‘mind-fuck’ self flagellation you been addicted to for years, Al? Is that all you can offer?? What about a suicide-bomb?? Or, a 110 story drop off Empire State Blg.?? How about a lethal dose of formaldehyde ingestion??? At least that way, in a sense, you could get a form of ‘pissistence’, to your ‘mission’ (perpetuation of your forte -pissing people off!).Now THAT, should interest you, no ?– Oh Al, btw, the legacy wouldn’t be complete– without a fitting epitaph, would it??

          “I have foisted upon an ungrateful world, the ultimate weapon, the coup de graz, to end all counter arguments, that fail utterly, to put a stop to my insistence upon railing against ANYTHING that even so much as DARES to challenge my right to have the final words.That is to say:..”I will mind-fuck you into ‘sanity’, asshole.”

          Your buddy, ( who built your padded cell, btw,)( I care, you see?)
          Ray. 🙂

          1. Why do you think that getting a person stuck in an imaginary “case”, as implanted in you by L Ron Hubbard, was helping them?

            1. Can you give us some of the specifics of the ‘imaginary case’ that LRH implanted in YOU in particular? This is something that might help others avoid that fate, or escape the implant.

              Don’t skimp on the time place form and event of how and when he did this to you, please!

    2. Scientology may become useful if “Black Magic” elements are taken out of it.

      Some of the “Black Magic” elements seem to be:
      (a) Using the via of e-meter, which is not seen by the preclear.
      (b) Mechanically repeating the auditing command
      (c) Forcing an answer evne when there is none
      (d) Collection of intimate personal details
      (e) Making a showy and eleborate business out of auditing
      (f) Falsely exaggerating the cost of auditing to make it seem valuable.

      I am sure there are many more.


        1. I think cleanup of Scientology has already begun. It will happen faster if people engage in egoless discussions as laid out in discussion policy.

          1. Vinay. I will remind you of that little glitch, that keeps things ‘pissinsting’—( the comm l-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-g )

            ……..To repeat the question, WHEN???

            1. Vinay, Not buying it! Please just supply a simple answer, as requested.That just finishes THAT item, neatly. Then OUR attention is freed to move on. No mess, fuss, or Q&A.necessary

              So WHEN last,….Vinay?

            2. If you want to criticize Vinay, you will need a different angle. Vinay daily helps others with free math tutoring. This is one thing I know of and there are others.

            3. Well, Chris, I seldom see YOU ‘dodging’, so put that one in the bank bro’ 🙂

            4. 🙂 Thank you Calvin. I am seriously trying to follow your posts but failing. I like the energy I can see you put into it but I think I need to see you face to face to understand better the tongue-in-cheek, etc.

            5. Well then Chris….let me help you out a bit here. The first thing to get straight, is — I’m hardly EVER ‘serious’. Hope that helps? 🙂

  13. How many of your friends and acquaintances have had their lives ruined by the CoS? How many people do you know that would give anything and everything just to have disconnected family back in their lives? There must be people you care about that are still struggling to put the pieces of their lives back together…

    Will you be able to look these people in the eye while you explain to them your new “fuck it” attitude?

    1. I know plenty. I also know people who have had their family members killed by various reasons not related to the CoS at all. The Cos is insignificant, marginal and a very minor nuisance. The outrage is way out of proportion. I easily feel sympathy on a personal level for anyone struggling with anything. But the amount of outrage for the minor shit that the CoS does shows a certain disrespect for the more serious stuff in society. Some level-headedness should apply, don’t you think? If someone goes apposite because OSA slit their tires or killed their car, then how should they react if their sister got raped?

      As for telling them about the fuckit attitude… Yup, I would look them in the eye and tell them. Because I trust they would understand the concept unlike yourself.

      1. Yeah, Geir. Your point IS well taken and appropriate here. Perhaps the real issue in the present time ‘agitation’ on the blog, is simply …the missing handling of ‘originations’ (TR-4)??
        When (they’re) noticed, and given the effective ‘ack’ , it’s done!
        …..THAT ‘pissistence’, — need no longer ‘pissist! 🙂

        1. Ray wrote:

          “Perhaps the real issue in the present time ‘agitation’ on the blog, is simply …the missing handling of ‘originations’ (TR-4)??
          When (they’re) noticed, and given the effective ‘ack’ , it’s done!
          …..THAT ‘pissistence’, — need no longer ‘pissist!”

          The proper “ack” for Scientology is through law enforcement and other governmental action. It is a 3rd and 4rth dynamic “ack”, and yes, it has gone “unacked” for far too long.

          So if any part of your Scientological viewpoint is functional at all in this situation, it is probably along those lines.

          Sorry for being so “direct”. I’ve just learned that for people who constantly and unknowingly dramatize Scientology thinking over and over without ever realizing it, no matter what other information is available to them, that you have to be “direct”.

          With some people it doesn’t do any good.

          But neither does anything else.


          1. Alan, my good man, thanks. Let’s ask YOU the following, then, after first giving a little ‘hypothetical’ background.

            At one time, YOU had studied ‘bone throwing’. By going on to practice it, for a number of years, you then felt you had gotten quite proficient at it. So much so, that you managed to get quite a following for yourself.The strangest thing about all this effort on your part, (to ‘others’), is that your results, were becoming quite uniformly consistent!

            So much so. that YOU felt there must be some underlying ‘natural laws’, responsible for this. Now, to cut a long story short, you worked out a whole bunch of theorems, mathematical or ‘law of average’ wise, that delivered those results, as ‘predicted’.

            So then, making a living, as you used to do previously, was ditched, in favor of the new activity. Needless to say, your ‘following’, suddenly grew, to a point where you were no longer able to handle the number of ‘clients’ showing up at your door.

            You decided, in light of the pressure to deliver, that you had better get in some staff, pronto, otherwise, you would be swamped into exhaustion!

            That decision, to hire staff, included having to train THEM, up to a level of proficiency, and effectiveness, that satisfied the standard required of a really ‘HOT’ bone thrower!! (like YOU, for instance! )(I mean, WTF? –Seriously??– who ELSE???) 🙂

            So, okay then, we’ll just cut to the chase now, and assume you had gone on to ‘unprecedented’ success, with your venture,– writing books, training manuals, study methods, administration, etc.etc, but I’m sure you got the drift.

            By now, though, unfortunately for you (YOU!), being the ‘brash’ ?type that you were, had managed to rub up a whole bunch of
            people the wrong way, by ‘muscling in’ on ‘their business’. To say they DIDN’T ‘like’ you, would be a vast understatement!

            Overnight, you were branded a CULT, hounded, and followed, and found yourself at the wrong end of a state inquisition, even having to go into hiding, to avert the attentions of the paparazzi, ever camping outside your doorway. (Ho-hum.. so what’s new??)

            Alan, what I’m suggesting to you, with all this, is, do you think it any less of a ‘dramatization’, on YOUR part (LOL) to go on a massive campaign to abolish the use of (item/s), when clearly, in YOUR case, ‘bones’, had a definite ‘role’ to play, in the ‘natural’ order and SUPPORT of things- Indeed might it not satisfy you, to know that you had a whole sector of people who, AGREED with you, that we would all just turn to sloppy jellyfish, were it not for the ‘stability’ & direction achieved, with the freely ‘permitted’ use of the above mentioned ‘BONES’ ??

            In light of all this, do you then have the ‘right’, Alan, to dictate to me, (or any other) what ‘tools’, you deem acceptable?? Isn’t this just blatant bigotry, on your part?? Mind-fuck perpetuation, at best??

            Get over it, bro.! 🙂


            1. Calvin –

              What if that whole story that you just told me was bullshit?

              What if it did not happen that way at all, but that was just what you were told, and that is what you have continued to tell yourself ever since someone else told you this story – despite all the evidence around you that the story was false?

              Because IS ALL AROUND YOU that this story is false and that it did not happen the way you just said it did.

              So what if it was false?

              (Which it is)


            2. The question, Al, was about the ‘right to use TOOLS’, Al.

              I repeat: TOOLS, Al. Not about the ‘right to use BIGOTRY’, Al.

              Get over it, bro.! 🙂

  14. Geir, Disconnection as a Scientology issue does not work well for the sort of inductive logic you used in your OP. I challenge you to evaluate this further using a different, more appropriate method of logic, because the logic of your OP is faulty.

    The corollary of your OP is that disconnection in Scn is not so wrong after all because it goes on all the time on a bigger scale.
    This is a false corollary. Disconnecting families or friends that love each other through physical, emotional, financial or other intimidation is wrong, period.

    1) Begin with the fact that you used disconnection as a broad term, without differentiating degrees of disconnection. The more extreme cases have caused untold misery and even lives. Karen de la Carriere and her son, and Serge Obolensky are two horrific examples of extremely abusive disconnection just off the top of my head. There are many, many others.

    2) When you compare Scn disconnection with the disconnection of immigrants, for example, the comparison is far too general and de-personalised to make a valid comparison. An illegal immigrant willingly leaves his/her country knowing there is a possibility the person may not see his/her loved ones again, but there is also a possibility of a better life for the entire family. The person (normally) takes this risk knowingly and willingly. In COS, disconnection comes about much later, after a great deal of subtle re-education of the individuals and they are told their lives will improve and not informed about the losses and risks. This is a con, a bait-and-switch, a scam. Perhaps some illegal immigrants are also scammed with reassurances and lies about everything working out. In those cases, the comparison might be more realistic, but you have not provided any examples where these sorts of disconnection include barring the person from their loved one’s funeral, refusals to allow a parent to financially and otherwise assist a family member in need until he suicides, or any such example. So I don’t know from your statement that such horrors exist within the USA or other first world country’s immigration department, but I do know they exist within Scn. The only fair comparison is a case-by-case comparison.

    3) Scn disconnection is not “just like” other church disconnections, though some cultic versions of even mainstream religions have similarities. The broad Catholic Church does not enforce disconnection, but I am sure there are some cultic Christian groups that do. The disregard for following a country’s laws in order to enforce disconnection is peculiar to Scn, however, and the rabid vengeful tactics taken upon its members to enforce this, as well as mental manipulation, are almost beyond comparison within 1st world countries.

    In short, Geir, many families would rather be poor or homeless than be disconnected. They consider their loved ones more important than anything else. To them, it is a very big deal – the biggest. The only way we, as exCOS members or exscns can get this across is by making known each individual example. Those who live in free countries should never be subjected to this. I know more about Scn’s examples because I am an ex-member. Most activist groups have a core of people who were, personally, victims. So this is my battle. It may or may not be yours, but it is certainly a big deal – and raising awareness of the horrors of disconnection will only improve society’s standards – whether it comes from exScn activists or anyone else.

    1. Oh the outrage!

      My answer can be boiled down to: If a person’s outrage toward fair gaming and disconnection of the CoS reaches an 8, 9 or 10 on a scale 1-10, then there is no outrage left for rape, murder, terror and other mayhem. And it actually shows disrespect for those other horribilities of the world.

      1. Gotcha Geir!…. Really!… Hey man, have you seen what happens when 2 terminals ORIGINATE to ( /at?) each other simultaneously! caustic, to say the least. 🙂

      2. Well the outrage expressed against Scientology is actually very small when looked upon the world scale.

        The scales are getting mixed up in Geir’s OP.

      3. Geir wrote:

        Oh the outrage!

        Cheap shot, Geir.

        AuusieShiela’s response to your Op was extremely well written, well-reasoned, and well-argued.

        Her “outrage” was non-existent.

        Her logic was superior to yours.

        Point 1 to AussieShiela


        1. Not saying she is outraged. But defending and pushing shit that ought to stay at three on the outrage scale (1-10) to an artificial 9 doesn’t leave much room for more serious shit.

      4. Again, your thinking is flawed, Geir. There isn’t some set amount of compassion available and equal to each and every human. Where in the world did you get the idea that compassion gets “used up”, so that if one is compassionate on one subject the person is incompassionate on another? There is no substance or objective evidence to support that fallacy. Do you really believe that exscns ONLY focus on Scn? Do you not read the many other political and other discussions on that forum? Please have a look at Inductive Reasoning on the Wiki so you can see the flaws in your arguments. These are assertions based purely on personal, biased opinions which are not supported by objective facts. Compassionate people show and exhibit compassion in many areas of their lives and see every individual as important. Your opinion only exhibits your personal prejudices – and it’s not a good look.

      5. Maybe a program can be written to determine just how much criminals can get away with given the set of circumstances surrounding the crime, which allows them to keep under the arbitrary threshold of public outrage. It would be a very valuable tool for criminal organizations like Scientology, if life actually worked in a simplistically definable cookie cutter fashion like Hubbard tried to con people into believing.

        I’m curious do you all limit the amount of love you can give a person or happiness you can allow yourself to have about an event based on an arbitrary scale of importance you place on that person or event?

    2. “Geir, Disconnection as a Scientology issue does not work well for the sort of inductive logic you used in your OP. I challenge you to evaluate this further using a different, more appropriate method of logic, because the logic of your OP is faulty…”

      Very well said.

  15. It may be truth that life doesn’t matter on the grand scale of things as nobody is around to care when the sun is heat dead some billion years in the future! so why do you care about meaningless things like happiness, or sufferings? The point is my life has meaning to me even if it is pointless from a bigger point of view!
    Hare Krishna and other sects have not done anything to me so I don’t bother about them, but Scientology has done something to me so it is personal, and what they have done is fraud!

  16. Extreme focus on overts and witholds is part of “Black Magic” technique. It is assuming that the person is basically evil and the auditor mistrusting him or her. This kind of mistrust is built into Scientology. This is highly evaluative.

    If a person wants to get better he would be happy to give up his overts and withholds. That happens regu;arly in Christian confessions.

    A person would be unable to give up his O/Ws only when they are not visible to him because there are other things on his mental stack that needs to be unloaded first. This ia taken care of easily with mindfulness approach.

  17. The idea of hounding others about responsibility is also part of Blacl magic technique. One does not take a look at their own responsibility. Look at the amount of blame that poured out of Hubbard about education, mental health, the society, etc. He didn’t put any dent in improving any of that. He was the source of all his reality. Where was his responsibility? He simply targeted others for his own lack.

    I am getting annoyed at words like overts, withholds, responsinbility, etc., as their prime function in Scientoilogy seems to be to make others wrong, to introvert them, so that you can control them.

      1. Vin, you’ve just broken your own discussion Rule #2:

        “2. Focusing on participants instead of tackling the data being presented in a discussion.

        “…any focus on participants rather than on the subject of discussion causes much distraction. Such an action may involve commenting on the perceived behavior and characteristics of another participant; and/or becoming accusative, emotional and combative.”

        1. I would say that Marildi just totally busted Vinaire on this one.

          But then I look at Marildi’s Avatar here on Geir’s blog and have to ignore her answer because it is just too screeching and emotional.


          1. My opinion on such policy is that I would rather not enforce any strict rules or policies and instead keep the blog on a loose leash.

            1. Well, Geir like to apply logic when he wants to. He is loose about logic. He doen’nt want to apply any strict rules about logic.

            2. Here is another violatrion of Discussion Policy on Gier’s Blog by me:

              Geir is not free from Scientology yet. 🙂

            3. It’s interesting to watch as you start getting touchy – you start off slowly, and then you increase your pushing back. And after a few exchanges, you start desperately trying to push the other’s button so as to make that person react and make the other person look wrong. This has happened half a dozen times on my blog. It makes you look desperate and stupid and is the very reason why I have blocked you twice before. You get into a position where you become so adamant in proving yourself right that any backing down will seem like you are loosing face. If you so desperately want to get blocked, you could just ask you know.

            4. The inconsistency on Gier’s blog is that Ad Homs are disapproved by Geir, yet used by Geir.

              Mindfulness is missing.

            5. Vin, I suggest you chill on this one.

              This is my blog. I make the rules. You deal with it or leave. Simple.

              Continued sulking will not get you anywhere here. I have no time for you desperately trying to show off. Leave it or leave.

            6. Proper discussions may only be conducted by preventing alter-is-ness and not-is-ness. This Discussion Policy takes care of the Not-is-ness part. Discussion themselves take care of the alter-is-ness part by exposing inconsistencies.

  18. I had this realization on Hubbard twisting the concept of AFFINITY.

    From L. Kin

    Hubbard defines affinity in terms of reaching. One reaches for something in order to have it close to one. Lack of affinity would be expressed in a withdraw. “Affinity is a phenomenon of space in that it expresses the willingness to occupy the same place as the thing which is loved or liked. The reverse of it would be antipathy (. . .) which would be the unwillingness to occupy the same space as or the unwillingness to approach something or someone”.

    But true affinity would be the degree of comfort within oneself as one perceives. And this makes one be inclusive of others and their viewpoints.

    Affinity is just there, it is not created or enforced on oneself. One is already being, it has nothing to do with whether one can assume the beingness of another or not. The latter would require the ability to be a good actor. Just because an actor can pretend high affinity, it does not necessarily mean that he has high affinity.

    Affinity is the degree to which one is comfortable within oneself and willing to look around.

    The point is that affinity cannot be forced on oneself. It just is, and it comes from being free of inconsistencies in one’s viewpoint.

    1. Vin: “Affinity is the degree to which one is comfortable within oneself and willing to look around.”

      Isn’t this just flow 0 ? Stating it that way implies the existence of a compound being that can relate within or to itself. If one can be comfortable within oneself, one could hypothetically also be uncomfortable within oneself and there is a split going on…..

      I’m just trying to think with your post, it’s not a ‘criticism’.

      1. The flows are relative to the entity or dynamic. They are not absolute.

        For example, What is flow zero for the individual may not be flow zero for the cells that compose the individual. What is flow zero for a group may not be flow zero for the members of that group.

        To me a thetan is composed of mental and physical forces and energies. It is a represenatation just like “center of mass” is a representation of an object.

  19. Geir, me bro,….I have to ask again: WTF is wrong with these people? I see more sanity in a mental institution, man 🙂

    1. The anti-Scio’s seem more intolerant than anyone and I think thats what being anti does to you, anti-war, anti-GOP, anti-pych – better to be pro peace, pro Democrat (if thats your thang) and pro tech (if thats your thing). Constantly banging on about Hubbard and his ‘masterplan’ makes johnny a little nutty

          1. …living ‘out of’ this source and seeing that ‘another’ is also doing
            that whether aware of this source or not, one sees ONE SOURCE…one then is aware of agreements, identifications,
            this and that….and is aware, is acting in the instant and feels
            a flow of pure energy and love…
            …using your words: this is where i am at…

  20. Maybe I’m missing something here, but my government does not make it illegal for me to visit relatives I have in other countries , even the ones who do not agree with my government’s foreign policies. If you want to compare Scientology to way a government operates try taking a look at North Korea.

    1. Marildi, do you have something to forgive or something to be forgiven? (Scientology or Sea Org related experience. A simple and genuine question, not snide, and not digging for more than this.)

      1. Yes, Chris – some of each. And I’ve written comments before about some of my experiences to illustrate some point or another, but I have no interest in getting into further discussions about them. They’re water under the Bridge.

        1. I’ll say a bit more. One experience was as a public, where I wasted about $50,000 because of out-tech. I didn’t know it was out-tech at the time, but I made the mistake of putting my faith entirely in others – that was a valuable lesson to learn.

          As an SO member, I lost my health due to sleep deprivation, for one thing. But even then, I still didn’t decide to leave until I finally recognized that “Scientology” had utterly changed and that there was no joy in my life. Another great lesson in disguise.

  21. Geir, I fell that you are overreacting in terms of crimes committed by the US and other western states.
    True, people are suffering – but this is peanuts compared to what is going on in North Korea.
    So leave all exploitation, suppression and cheating alone in the Western world and rather put your focus on North Korea.

    Correction: Let us not waste our time focussing on the horrible violations of Human Rights in North Korea. Let us rather focus on what mankind is doing with our planet. This will result in making it impossible for our grandchildren to live a peaceful life.
    So we are talking about Billions of people, not to speak about other creatures and our poor planet itself.

    Focus on the REAL ESSENTIAL problems and ignore if your neighbor is killed by a burglar.
    And of course keep going on to give a fuck about what the CoS is doing. It is all wasted time!
    Let DM play his games with people who are so stupid not to realize that they are stepping into a trap.
    Let them. It is their business, not yours!

    Geir – I am truly disappointed about your new attitude. I can understand that you are disappointed that you could not cause a real effect on the CoS. But you should not discourage others.

    Or did DM maybe buy you in the end?


    1. It’s starting to startle me how totally worked up people get about the Church of Scientology. Like it was important or something. The amount of emotions and indignation that some manage to muster in themselves about this is worthy of some serious scientific research.

    2. “Geir – I am truly disappointed about your new attitude. I can understand that you are disappointed that you could not cause a real effect on the CoS. But you should not discourage others.Or did DM maybe buy you in the end?”

      When tertiary syphilis bacteria reactivates in the brain causing dementia, tremors, loss of muscle coordination, paralysis, and blindness; damage is irreversible. These symptoms are similar to those who profess true belief in Scientology and in tertiary Scientology withdrawal, this damage may be irreversible as well.

  22. So for you it makes more sense to invest time into a serious research why people get so upset about the crimes of the CoS than to focus on these crimes. Hard to believe while being aware of the fact that you do know best of all how much Anette has suffered and probably still suffers from this organization’s behavior.

  23. Geir, I see your point and I agree with most of it. Big bad Leviathan has done fairgaming, family disconnecting and lots of other atrocities in a scale that makes Scientology look like child’s play. Maybe the difference is that Scientology’s actions have affected most of us directly and intensely, while governments’ may have not (or at least we don’t speak about it in this specific blog). Scientology’s policies and procedures have harmed us to some degree and I think we’re entitled to our outrage (even though it may be peanuts compared to what many migrants and families have suffered because of some countries’ laws). But I understand why you see all this grudge against Scientology pointless, since I have also felt the need to get over it and move on. After all, there are things more important than Scientology and ourselves out there.

      1. Hypertexta,

        The government is not currently running an ongoing overtly suppressive campaign against the civil rights of my personal family in just the way that Scientology is. For twenty+ years, Scientology has split my family and is currently physically stopping my oldest daughter from being in any type of communication with her mother. Do you have children or parents Hypertexta? Have you ever had the pleasure of feeling the overstimulated anxiety of separation, even temporarily, due to divorce, being in a bad relationship, or even losing them in a department store for 5 minutes? Multiply this by orders of magnitude and you can get a sense of mine and my daughter’s and her mother’s ongoing loss.

        Neither my daughter nor her mother knows what became of the other. Neither knows if the other is alive. My daughter has not had a word of news about her mother since 1992. My daughter’s mother does not know that she grew up, that she kissed a boy, finished high school, served her country in the Navy, married a good guy that didn’t work out, married another good guy that did work out, had two kids, and became a medical doctor.

        It would definitely take a Sea Org hardened and OSA loving heart not to get what the brouhaha is about. You are not one of those are you Hypertexta? You can understand my dilemma, right?

        I understand Geirs post as well and don’t expect people who made the choices I’ve made to suddenly get my back on this. It’s not a national problem. But for those of us who live this, it is important.

        1. Chris, I understand your dilemma, and it is important to me and many others. That’s why we stick with it, for truth, justice and just plain love of our family and fellow man. Let alone our responsubility.

          1. Thanks deE! 🙂

            Well the point of the OP is well taken. If my family were not pivoting on this problem, I would not be very interested in the hooligans of one little cult.

            On the other hand, on a different dynamic, those responsible for the preservation and spread of this irresponsible and destructive religion enjoy any respite from the light being shined on the nature of there activities. I don’t think it’s a good idea for those of us who were involved to let that go so that it can continue to perpetrate its crimes.

        2. Chris, I’m shocked to hear (or read) about all your troubles with your family and Scientology. It’s simply outrageous. I’ve read about cases like yours on the net, but you’re the first real person I directly speak about it with. On the other hand, I believe I understand your suffering very well because I also had my family torn apart, although not by Scientology, but by Guatemalan Civil War, back in the 1980’s. Maybe someday we’ll talk about this, but right now we’re talking about Scientology, right?

          My personal troubles with Scientology are much, much lesser than what my family suffered back in the 80’s (and certainly much, much lesser than yours). While I was in Scientology, I never became a staff member or anything like it. I was just a student who took several courses during an estimated period of three years. About your question if I’m a hardened Sea Org member, hell no! I’m not. As a matter of fact, I left Scientology the day they virtually forced me to sign their stupid billion-year contract and I refused to do it. They kept me in a closed room for about an hour trying to break me into signing that piece of shit (sorry, I mean piece of sheet). Finally I promised I’d sign the next day, lied about some urgent business I had to take care of and left for good. Never went back, but that single hour of my life (which I think can be considered psychological torture) haunted me for years.

          Anyway, sorry if my reply gives the impression that I don’t care. No, as I say there, we’re entitled to our outrage, no matter how big or little our dilemmas are. I think we all damn well earned it.

          By the way, I’m the father of a 6-year old boy and I’ve already enjoyed that “overestimulated anxiety”, as you put it, of losing sight of him for a few seconds in a mall, on the street, etc.

          By the way again, congratulations, grandpa!

          1. Hi Hypertexta, You didn’t do or write anything insensitive, no worries. I don’t mean to whine nor put this difficulty on a par with the kinds of political troubles, etc., which exist in abundance around the world. And it’s not like we don’t move on, we do. The unusual twist to Scientology problems of forced disconnection is like seeing one’s child’s photo on the milk jug and knowing approximately where they are and having one’s hands tied to advocate for them. So we do move on but unlike a death in the family, or even a divorce, we yet maintain a tether to the past and wait, I do wait for that final resolution, that final chance to “make up the damage” which I’ve done by involving my family so deeply and I sense there may still be something I can do about it – yet this dynamic exists in a kind of a limbo or purgatory. Though it is not so harsh as the great social upheavals which continue to occur, for me it is my personal battle for my daughter who was left without a mother as surely as if she were dead and cruelly just out of reach. Sometimes people do not get that this is important to me and so I mention it as I have here and will continue to do so until it resolves by reunion or death. ~Chris Thompson

    1. “But I understand why you see all this grudge against Scientology pointless, since I have also felt the need to get over it and move on.”

      Hypertexta, I’ve been perplexed for a long time as regards the “grudge against Scientology,” and have tried to figure out the reason for it. Just as Geir has come to believe, I’ve seen it as out-of-proportion and wondered why people were hanging on to it so tightly and for so long. Well, I recently came across a possible explanation.

      I’ve been watching a lot of video talks by Tom Campbell, the physicist and consciousness (theta) researcher. I’m impressed with him because he bases his theories on his and others’ actual experiences rather than mere intellectual ponderings.

      Like many of the great sages in history, Campbell considers that we are all “netted,” in terms of a spiritual connection with one another – similar to the entanglement of particles that quantum physicists have discovered. I guess this would be like the old saying, “As above, so below.”

      In the last couple minutes of this vid, Campbell talks about “collective consciousness” and says that it’s similar to Jung’s archetypes, and he explains what happens when a group of people become involved in something together.

      The example he gives – lo and behold – is of people involved together in spiritual growth. He says that in working tightly together with a lot of camaraderie and helping each other, they share a lot, know each other’s feelings, and meld together in a sort of unit consciousness.

      LRH talked about this phenomenon too and said that a group develops a beingness in itself. I now believe that was not just a figure of speech.

      In the vid, Campbell states that each individual learns to know “what the other is doing and thinking,” and that was LRH’s exact wording too as part of the definition of “team.” Campbell also points out that it can work the same way for a team – or for a military unit or even a mob – or whole nations.

      Anyway, this may be the answer to why we all still have the urge to congregate together, whether to praise or condemn Scientology – we are still tied together as a group. In the past, I’ve even compared us to being like relatives, family members. That was my feeling, and my intuitive sense of it may have been right! Watch the last couple minutes, from about 7:50:

      1. It’s interesting what Campbell says about groups of people gathering towards a goal and forming what can be considered a single organism. Yes, it’s a way of explaining why some people congregate to praise or condemn Scientology, although I think the reasons behind it may be numerous and complex (and not always easy to elucidate). By the way. It’s nice to talk to you again, Marildi.

        1. What a sweet thing to say, Hypertexta. It’s nice to talk to you again too! It’s not every man who can so easily communicate ARC. 🙂

          Well, you are right – I’m sure there isn’t one simple explanation. But I do think part of it is that the “group” feeling is still somewhat in place – for better or worse. (Ha ha – sounds like marriage. ;))

          Hey, I hope you have time to post more often. 🙂

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