This is where I am at

…or even letting go without any forgiveness at all.

685 thoughts on “This is where I am at

    1. From the last thread I already got that somewhere along the line you became “free of Scientology.” That’s huge, IMO. And I think that is what it’s going to take with all of us former Scientologists if we are ever going to have worthwhile discussions on the subject.

      Not that we would need to be in agreement with each other on the various aspects of Scientology – not at all – just that we would be free enough FROM it to have the capacity to have a true discussion. And with those who have been badly hurt, that kind of freedom might also take forgiveness, ironically.

  1. Geir and everybody, what do you think of this basis of discussion:

    “There are two intellectually-honest debate tactics:

    “1. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts

    “2. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic

    http://www.johntreed.com/debate.html

    1. In other words, discussion should be a matter of FACTS and LOGIC, and pointing out errors or omissions in either.

        1. That’s right Valkov and so we need to be clear whether we are discussion or debating. For me, mixing these has the unhappy results that we sometimes see on the blogs.

      1. For me, a discussion should be a matter of interested discourse between us with the sense of sharing our opinions and the hope of learning. Facts and logic seem relative and conditioned to me. They seem relevant and consistent within certain frameworks and constructs only. Outside these frameworks of ideology, facts and logic lose their relevance and with that goes consistency.

    2. Marildi, and everyone: For me, the difference between discussing and debating is that in debate, there is an opinion to harden and something to win and in a discussion there is the sense and hope that there is something to learn without the ego of winning being on the line. Possibly this difference creates the most friction between us as we write back and forth.

      1. Yes, there is that meaning and connotation of the word “debate” but the basic definition is simply this:

        “a discussion between people in which they express different opinions about something”

        The above is what I was referring to.

            1. Let’s do. 😉

              And it might take some doing! But it should be fun even working out how to actually go about it.

          1. Looking back from 2014-05-22, Chris, I reckon you banged the nail on the head! (mebbe not hard enough though, to actually go INNN! ) 🙂

            1. Yup. I have more to offer than arguing with Marildi about religion. My being here and communicating upsets Marildi who wants me to stop criticizing Scientology. The trouble with letting slip a positive comment about Scientology is that she then catalogs such and never lets one forget. For instance, in Geir’s case, she will go back years at a time if needed to find a laudable comment about his processing and then try to rub his nose in it to prove he is currently deluded. You used to think so you therefore now think the same. If she ever has more than cut and paste quote of authorities to share, I will dial it back. Actually, I already do. Anytime she drops the OSA valence and mountains of dead agenting material I do dial it back. As far as tit for tat, she seems to want a free rein without granting one and gets angry when challenged. Same with my friend Elizabeth. If I could have my way and our arguments could evolve into conversations, we could have any opinions, galaxies of them and I would be fine with that if we could keep straight what is a belief and what is a fact. Then proselytizing turns into conversing. That would be a good place to be.

            2. Got it Chris. Here’s what may amaze you though, as much as it does me. Though I didn’t go through the wringer at all, when compared to much of what you have, I STILL can have that label of being a scn! However, that is based on the fact that I still see the ‘tools’ of scn, as both useful and helpful. BUT, the amazing thing is, that today, I really and genuinely can have your present attitude toward the subject and it’s founder, as well! It really is TOTALLY fine with me, to see ‘it’ the way you do. Somehow, I also get the feeling that you grant me the same freedom to choose.

              I think where a lot of the angst comes in, is well covered in your post above. Nice job there, Chris. 🙂

    3. Straight forward answers, Marildi?–it sucks!

      Why? — ’cause it ISN”T a basis of ‘discussion’, at all.

      Why? — ’cause it perpetuates a timeless ‘aberration’ of man, since time immemorial.

      How? — focuses on the sole ‘purpose’ ( which consequently translates to tit for tat, LOL), of just making your ‘opponent’ (your words!) –WRONG!

      Working motto.” I’m free to make you wrong! As long as you don’t gang up on ME!!! ” LOL.

      64 wasted years, for you too, Marildi.??? 🙂

  2. Great OP Geir! Sure to attract a ton of the usual back ‘n forth.
    I get an enormous simplicity from it.

    Letting go.– Open the cage.– Set the bird free.– No regrets.:)

  3. Okay, I agree. But we can ask for the basis of whatever is presented as a “fact,” and then it becomes clear that it is simply opinion – which is fine, but should be labelled as such.

  4. Geir
    “Letting go without forgiveness”

    Somehow this does not flow correctly within me. It seems to me in order to let go you need to forgive/take responsibility first.
    Without forgiveness there is no letting go.
    I might need to meditate on this for awhile but I cannot see letting go without forgiveness. There will always be something hanging on even if it’s really small…..
    :-/

    1. I’m currently working on a project which involves forgiveness and it works both ways, I think. I can forgive what I can, like steps on a path as the bricks keep appearing.

      Should I need forgiveness and not receive it, I hope to be able to let that go too, so as not to be hung up in it. I can allow another not to forgive me as i can only control my own forgiveness.

      I really liked this video and messages and will review as needed.
      Thank you Geir, as always, you come through with some good ‘stuff’.
      Missed being on the net during the very busy event.

      Loved being with you and Anette and hearing your talk in Florida. 🙂 ❤

        1. Sure. It also includes any theory I have, any opinion and everything else. Simply letting go is rather fantastic. Even letting go of the need to letting go.

          1. I guess I am not there yet. Interesting. There are areas where it is easy to let go but some (family, friends & loved ones) its not that simple.
            I need to work on it more I guess.

            You bring up interesting subjects to talk and think about.

            Me like 🙂

          2. Of course you’re on a pretty well traveled path, with this stuff, Geir. John lennon;- “Let It Be” .. Adyashanti -“Give it up, throw it into the fire”.. Jesus:-“Turn the other cheek” Alfred E. Newman:
            “Wot, me worry?” 🙂

            1. Yes Val..and the best thing about it? It’s contagious! 🙂

          3. Geir: “Sure. It also includes any theory I have, any opinion and everything else.”

            I’m curious about something. You recently made a trip all the way to Florida to speak out against the CoS at the Flag Down protest. How does going to that much effort reconcile with what you said in your previous blog post where you asked: “What’s all the fuss about?” Or did that event itself have an effect on your point of view?

            1. I’m going to chirp in here, Marildi. I’m guessing this much; It likely didn’t come anywhere close to meeting with some of the expectations, he MAY have had.(I don’t blame him, either!)

            2. Okay, but that still doesn’t fully connect the dots. Let’s see what Geir has to say.

            3. I was asked several months ago to speak at the conference. In the meantime I have been letting go. I love speaking live to audiences on any topic, though. And Florida this time of the year is nice 🙂

            4. Okay, thanks. I totally get that. But then would you be candid enough to say what you would specifically credit as initiating your change of heart/mind? And if it was a combination of things, what was the key turning point?

            5. By “stuff” do you mean any negativity, or what? Too vague. I think that’s why people may be confused by what it is you’re trying to communicate. Unless you just like to be enigmatic. 😉

            6. Point is – I am practicing letting anything go, starting with negative emotions, but not confined to negative stuff. I practice letting opinions go, backlog, feelings of having to do stuff, etc.

            7. Okay, I think I get the idea. Sounds like you’re practicing being truly self-determined, being your own orientation point, or simply being your own man – just a few of the ways it could be expressed.

            8. It is more in the direction of being UNdetermined. Just letting go. It’s very hard to explain that concept within the confines of the Scientology vocabulary and mindset. “Letting go” and “fuck it” works much better than trying to translate or map it to Hubbard’s models.

            9. “‘Letting go’ and ‘fuck it’ works much better than trying to translate or map it to Hubbard’s models.”

              Well, it might not translate to Hubbard’s models but, truthfully, I have found very little that can’t be. And besides, “self-determined” and “being your own man” aren’t just Hubbard’s concepts or even only his wording – they’re used universally. But if you have a ridge on anything that smacks of Hubbard’s models or wording, I think you should just say “fuck it” and “let go.” 🙂

              All razzing aside, you must be operating on some principle that you use to determine what to let go of, because I doubt you’re going to let go of anything and everything arbitrarily or on mere whim. You wouldn’t, for example, just willy-nilly let go of your feelings for your children.

              So unless you’re merely trying to be mysterious or a rebel, or rile people up or whatever, I think you should include in your worldview the underlying principle you use – just “letting go” and “fuck it” aren’t quite doing it for some of us, as revolutionary as those words may seem to be. (Of course, those who relate to you as their guru will probably now scream bloody murder. 😀 )

            10. Firstly, I simply can’t seed any principle beyond what I have described above. Secondly, translation is a via, it adds a filter, and concepts gets twisted or even lost – exactly like in your attempt above to translate “letting go” into Scientologeeze. When you view a concept via a model, something will be distorted even though you may not seed that. No Ridge here. Just trying to convey my answer to your question without making it translateable to what Jesus or Mohammed said or the world view of Vinaire or Hubbard.

            11. “…your attempt above to translate ‘letting go’ into Scientologeeze.”

              I guess you missed the point that my attempt was simply to express the understanding I was getting, and ask if that was correct – and that it wasn’t necessarily even Scientologeeze that I was using to express it. Nor did I have any particular “model” in mind – unless you consider all concepts to be models and all words to be distortions of actuality – which there is truth to. But why bother to communicate this concept of “letting go” at all unless you are attempting with words to get across an idea. It makes no sense to now start saying that words will never get it across.

            12. This I can’t buy at all. Almost everything we do, every move we make, is based on evaluation. One can’t survive well or even remain alive in the physical universe without evaluation.

            13. You once said that if something was understood well enough, it could even be explained to a child.

            14. Are you going to make that assumption before you even attempt to make yourself understood, and then from there determine whether there is an openness or not? If so, I don’t think you are sincerely open to discussion yourself.

            15. I am letting this go. Before it goes into the tiring discussion where I desperately try to get you to understand what I am saying, like several times before . Others understood my point. Reread my answers. See if you can get it.

              There. Gone.

            16. First you said your idea can’t possible be expressed – and when I challenged that, you didn’t speak directly to the specific challenge but put up a Straw Man in the form of what you claim happened in the past.

              Too bad you can’t let go of the past [ahem].

              I was hoping we could actually have an intellectually honest discussion, because I assumed you were interested in more than just having people say how much they agree with whatever you say. Maybe I was wrong.

              Other than that, I’ll let the exchange speak for itself.

            17. marildi
              ‘one can’t survive well or even remain alive in the physical universe without evaluation’.

              Is it true?
              Can you look at its opposite, how it can be true?

            18. “Can you look at its opposite, how it can be true?”

              Yes, I can, Marianne. But I was talking about such everyday things as deciding when it was safe to start walking across a busy street.

              However, now I see that Geir was coming from a different frame of reference. After our exchange, he wrote this reply to Elizabeth: “What I am exploring currently is life’s dichotomy between the serene and adventures.”

              Here’s a great video that I think gives a pretty good answer to the dichotomies and to the beliefs we hold – in other words, when to hold ‘em and when to fold’em. 🙂

            19. Marildi what is the difference between serene and adventure? Both are considerations and that happens when one is judging.. IN OTHER WORDS the PERSONS JUSGES THE INCOMING DATA OR EXPERIENCE AND ARRIVES TO THAT JUDGEMENT SIMPLY BY HOW WAS RESTIMULATED BY THAT EXPERIENCE!. Bad or good! … after all experience is just on experience as any other experience till it is decided what kind was it.

            20. E., I do not believe that everything 100% depends on restimulation. It may be a very large part of it, true, but the being can still make choices at times about how s/he wishes to live – based on their personal decisions of what is right and not just what was taught to them by the physical universe. You yourself made some life-changing choices that I don’t think were just restim.

              Maybe that video can explain it better than I can. Did you watch it?

            21. Marildi. the ”belief” thing…? sure.. do keep it in mind that MY BELIEFS WERE CHANGED_CHANGING WITH EVERY SESSION I HAVE HAD…I am not stock with one beliefs.. I went into sessions because I wanted different viewpoints.. so how you see me being stuck?

            22. E., I wasn’t saying anything about you being stuck. I was just disagreeing with the idea that all our evaluations or judgments are totally based on “restimulation.” Education and conditioning (or “restimulation” in a loose sense) does play a huge role in our decisions, evaluations and judgments – but it isn’t always the only factor. People can and do rise above those things sometimes and make self-determined decisions and evaluations.

              Btw, when you used the word “restimulation” I get now that you meant it in the sense of “conditioning.” But it doesn’t exactly have that meaning. It only means “reactivation of the reactive mind” – which does not include all education and indoctrination of beliefs – that would be “conditioning.” So when you are including education and indoctrination together with restimulation, I think it would be better to use the word “conditioning” so it doesn’t get confusing. JFYI (Just For Your Info 🙂 )

            23. I would say that we make all kind of decisions every day that is not due to conditioning or “restimulations”. People do have a sizeable amount of free will. I see this all the time in my coaching; patterns are broken, tendencies are overcome.

            24. end by now I am not going to disagreement on any ones beliefs since I believe that what others believe in is true for them.. so hell with serenity!

            25. I like the idea that there is a sizable amount of free will. But I would say that to a great extent it operates within the boundaries of cultural and other beliefs. The fact that you are able to help people break patterns and tendencies only shows that these boundaries can be broken through, not that they don’t exist.

              You said in your other comment that you don’t believe in the reactive mind. Yet it is a common thing to observe a person simply reacting to a certain stimulus – time and again. Do you have another construct or way of explaining this?

            26. I didn’t say boundaries doesn’t exist.

              I don’t believe in a Reactive Mind. I believe there is a very gradient of less conscious behavior patterns. Some are fully conscious, others less so and some are buried deep. Hubbard’s arbitrary division of the mind seems arbitrary to me.

            27. I’m getting the idea that, for you, Geir – the less organization, the better – in all aspects of life. Am I right? I like that idea but as Einstein said (loosely paraphrased) we should keep things as simple as possible – but no simpler.

              Your idea about gradients of consciousness in relation to behavior patterns makes sense, but I believe there is more that could be said about the organization of the mind than just that. One thing is that there are connections and associations among past experiences that are similar to one another – which is what makes them “group together,” in essence. And this is why going back to earlier-similar incidents is often needed to actually release a person from a particular behavior pattern. I think you would agree with this, wouldn’t you?

            28. I agree there is a tendency for certain experiences to affect a person in the present. But, I do not agree there is a need to go earlier-similar to alleviate their effect on the person.

            29. What I wrote went beyond the fact that certain experiences affect a person in the present – it had to do with the ramifications of SIMILAR experiences. However, I can go along with your idea that it may not be necessary to go earlier-similar because that is just one workable method of handling unwanted effects of the mind.

              The main thing I wanted to say is that the mind has an organization to it that is more than just varying degrees of consciousness, or the fact that past experiences affect a person in the present – there’s also the principle of associations and connections. I would have to think about it more to see if apart from that there is any other organizational principle to the mind that I know of. Maybe that’s the simplicity of it. Hmmm…

            30. Actually, the above is only about the mechanics of the mind and there is more to it than that – there is also the postulates, the decisions the person makes during those past experiences. This, I don’t think any successful method can avoid addressing one way or another.

            31. What are those methods? And do they address existing postulates, one way or another?

            32. Geir: Separate blog post.

              Marildi: That should be interesting. Go for it.

              Chris: Glove has been thrown down. No breather from this. The tenacity is admirable even if horrific in its single-minded pigheadedness.

            33. Geir: There are at least three other successful methods that I know of that doesn’t go into any complexities.

              Marildi: What are those methods? And do they address existing postulates, one way or another?

              Chris: This is not a sincere inquiry of curiosity. This is the Scientology method taught to challenge anything and everything that one knows and to show just how it is either: 1. Wrong, because is “psych” oriented, or 2. If similar to a datum in Scientology, show how that datum was invented by Hubbard, even if the datum is older than Hubbard.

            34. As for the Einstein quote, in my experience, the real enemy in getting shit done is complexity. Most people (every person I have met) have a really, really long way to go in order to reach “as simply as possible”.

            35. What do you think about the datum that the degree of complexity on any subject is directly related to the inability to confront?

            36. I agree. And that does day a lot about Scientology, and Hubbard. Interesting – haven’t seen that subject in that light before.

            37. Hubbard once said something very much like that Alan Watts video you posted one time – that people require and demand complexity, so if you want to get through to them, you have to make it complex.

              It may be that Scientology only seems complex to those who don’t understand its basic simplicities.

            38. “It may be that Scientology only seems complex to those who don’t understand its basic simplicities.”
              Because an ideology contains a well worn and useful datum doesn’t follow that the ideology is therefore simple. For example, studying auditing and doing auditing is complex enough to put you off from doing it even though you are a seasoned and well trained veteran and true believer in Scientology technology. When one does learn and apply scientology auditing, and when they demonstrate how it works to themselves and for themselves, they very soon get “WTF?” thoughts and begin to analyze its root mechanics further. This has more to do with the failure of Scientology ideology than than it has to do the antics of the Church executives.

            39. “For example, studying auditing and doing auditing is complex enough to put YOU off from doing…”

              The above is a knowing and deliberate lie. And the rest of his comments are the usual, continuous attempts at psychic vampirism. This is a pitiful and pitiable condition but should not be allowed to affect those who are unsuspecting of its true nature, described here:

            40. That’s an example of what I mean about not understanding the basic simplicities of Scientology. Chris has already admitted that he can’t even differentiate between Scientology and the Church.

              Here’s another basic simplicity of Scientology:

              “Probably at this minute you could think of some examples of good people and bad people. You know those who rave and gnaw the rug at the very thought of Scientology helping anyone, so therefore there must be people of evil intention toward their fellows.

              “And there are.

              “The research results you would be interested in show clearly that there are two types of behavior—that calculated to be constructive and that calculated to be disastrous.

              “These are the two dominant behavior patterns. There are people then who are trying to build things up and others who are trying to tear things down.

              “And there are no other types. Actually there aren’t even shades of grey. The disaster type can be repressed into inactivity (and illness) and the constructive type can also be repressed (and made ill). Thus there are two basic actions, each with many other subsidiary actions.

              “There is also a cyclic or combined type who is alternately constructive and disastrous.

              “So there are cowboys in white hats and cowboys in black hats. And the cowboys in the grey hats are too sick to be in the game.”

              (HCOB 2 Apr 64 “Two Types of People”)

            41. m… RIGHT YOU ARE. I see it so clearly… by these black hatted cowboys which are the product of the BLACK TIDE.. the robots. they are the same PERSONS WHO MADE THE TECH AND LRH LOOK BAD, USLESS, CRAZY.NOT WORKING. these are the robots who twist everything into negative.. and present this as facts!. Look at Vinaire, his duty is to pull in people demolish their beliefs by pointing out how wrong they are than when they are invalidated just about to oblivion than he moves in and offers his believes as facts. He implants with that he wins back to the dark side. Why do you think he persisted with me now for 3 years wanting to wear me down? I represent something which he recognises unconsciously and he must destroy the source.. 🙂 This game is not just a game but a major battle. But words, what is said don’t make much difference any more. the power is not with the words, the power can not be demolished by something so irreverent.

            42. Marildi I did not realised that your apartment is under surveillance monitored by Chris.. and that is the reason he know you are not having auditing.. if that is not the case.. how could he say you are not getting auditing? 🙂 do have all the wires checked by experts.. Look for bugs and for large rat..

            43. E., not only does he claim to know what I do but WHY I do it. These are the kinds of remarks that give away the fact that he’s just trying to stir up sh*t. I ignore him 95% of the time because his fabrications and continuous long-winded blather just show how utterly obsessed he is. On the subject of Scientology, he is one of the least free people around. However, once in a while the little cur dog nipping at your feet deserves a good kick in the butt. But I don’t consider it worth the time to spend much effort in his direction.

            44. “E., not only does he claim to know what I do but WHY I do it.”

              I do not claim to know why you do not process yourself on the Bridge to Total Freedom. I am only asking, “Why?”

            45. M… Scientology Chris do not understand at all if he would than he would not make those statements. yes he is badly retimulated by your presence! you really did not mean that about dog kicking did you?

            46. here is on fact when comes to Marildi your persistent pestering her makes you a total idiot and the same goes for me toward V.. for pulling his leg.. I wonder if that leg is made of wood ?

            47. Now Chris if you would have read all my posts than you would know that ”idiot” is a compliment. And blogging is more than just fun… much much more.
              Fun: that is one reality..only one.. Can you name 10? I could name more than ten reasons why people blog.

            48. Yes. “Idiot” denotes a person who is fully able to live in her/his own universe. By this definition, Chris, Geir, marildi, and Elizabeth(both of them), are all “idiots”.

              Etymology
              From Middle English, from Old French idiote (later idiot), from Latin idiota, from Ancient Greek ἰδιώτης (idiōtēs, “a private citizen, one who has no professional knowledge, layman”), from ἴδιος (idios, “one’s own, pertaining to oneself, private”); ἰδιώτης (idiōtēs) was used derisively in ancient Athens to refer to one who declined to take part in public life.

              See also “Idiosyncratic”.

              id·i·o·syn·crat·ic [id-ee-oh-sin-krat-ik, -sing-] Show IPA
              adjective
              pertaining to the nature of idiosyncrasy, or something peculiar to an individual: “The best minds are idiosyncratic and unpredictable as they follow the course of scientific discovery.”

              Yes, let’s not forget Vinaire…..

              Thus you can see that Scientology exactly produces the result of making individuals more and more “idiotic”, ie more and more “themselves” as they approach Clear…..

            49. Valkov. that was very interesting.. you left your-self out… I wonder why! iused to call self often on idiot so I decided to look why I did that so I taken that concept into session : the recall was I played on idiot as the jester in court and in fact I was the one who was running the country… Idiot being one was a valance… I don’t believe there is such person who is on idiot.. or stupid, ignorant., PS interesting that you noticed the two elizabeths.. hehehe. not really two but perhaps some other time I will revel why that seem so.. 🙂 for some that is very confusing and of course one is a valance I use the other is me.

            50. Humble my foot, I never buy that one..you know your worth.. I buy lovable.. your energy level when I experience it reading your posts not bas at all. 🙂 you still need to answer my question.

            51. Sorry, I got you confused with that Toth woman Marianne because you are both Huns and I am secretly an Idiot. Don’t tell anyone!

            52. compliment get you nowhere! I don’t give out titles that easily ! As being a woman.. well forget that one. This body will be 75 in November and since my last divorce in 96 I have not dated, been out with differently designed bodies.. and no intention to do so in future. cobwebs all over the place…

            53. “These are the two dominant behavior patterns. There are people then who are trying to build things up and others who are trying to tear things down.”

              And so when the Scientologist is argued down, cornered and their argument crippled beyond repair, retreat to the ad hominem. Your argument has become diluted and useless and so like a good Scientologist simply attack the person with whom you can no longer argue. How much do you wish that I would shut up about Scientology? I respond to your posts because you are our resident expert on Scientology and the final “true believer” even if squirrel. In the final analysis, you are the best of what Scientology has to offer and for that I am grateful for your participation on this blog. From where I am at, I still feel like posting up a counterpoint so that people stumbling across your rants promoting the universal applicability of Scientology can have another opinion to compare.

            54. you are kidding your self about scientology and that Marildi is the last believer. Last week 4 Italians went OT one went clear and one is starting OT 8.. and there are others who are on different levels of auditing.
              The new center in grand Forks have waiting PS to be audited! and those who write to me and tell me that they too solo audit… well … little you know!
              People like you who determined to destroy the Tech and the belief of many don’t have enough power to do so.

            55. (HCOB 2 Apr 64 “Two Types of People”) For those wanting to peer into the mind of Hubbard, this is the way to do it, review his own technical bulletins. They are very enlightening as to the way he saw the world.

            56. “There is also a cyclic or combined type who is alternately constructive and disastrous.” Was Hubbard alternately constructive and distrastrous?

            57. Hubbard stated that if one wasn’t with Scientology, then they were an anti-social personality, quoting, “Probably at this minute you could think of some examples of good people and bad people. You know those who rave and gnaw the rug at the very thought of Scientology helping anyone, so therefore there must be people of evil intention toward their fellows.”

              I am raving a bit but not quite yet gnawing at the rug. My anti-social personality tells me that if I do not suppress Scientology then I will be endangered by it finding out my evil intentions toward my fellows. Either way, I believe that my suppressive person declare should stand, don’t you? Can you begin to see how mad Hubbard had gone by 1964? This was 2 years before his hallucination of OTIII.

            58. That is your reality that he hallucinated.. listen ..you have well described your personality and you have collective agreement on that by those who stand up and rave about the workability of the tech, I recommend that you go and post your raving in that Italian blog where geirs protection will not be the umbrella over your head and see how the Italians will respond to your negative comments!

            59. I was declared and that was taken back by church.. so the supress word was nulled. That simply means I was not declared . now if this info help you rest better at night I am delighted.
              You know nothing outside of what I post and what you know is hallucinations of you mind.

            60. Geir’s protection? That’s rich. Elisabeth – consider yourself protected for me letting you rant on my blog for years.

            61. Geir, what I think Elizabeth means is that you never have any objection to Chris’ continuous rants or tell him to chill like, for example, you did recently with her and Vinaire. Chris is as incessant in preaching his beliefs as Vinaire is, and yet you never note anything about that although you have often come down on Vinaire for it.

              Right now Vinaire is doing his preaching over at Marty’s and mostly getting his butt kicked, not by Marty but by other posters. Chris only makes a meek and mild comment over there once in a while, probably because he knows others will spot him as being as much a zealous “true DISbeliever” as any “true believer.” You seem to turn a blind eye to that. At least that’s the apparency.

            62. This is what I mean. You seem to be unable to see the difference. Chris will comment rabidly on every post I write and often every paragraph, and even every sentence at times. Yesterday he wrote several comments on one sentence alone.

              And you yourself will often counter my statements but never counter Chris’. This alone is telling.

            63. LOL…LOL LOL… now you got it.. our own personalities no matter what that is expressed in our writing.. you have opened up this blog to write how you think.. and invited comments. from those you have learned a great deal. Every post reading those is on experience into different realities.. now that is wonderful having-ness.. so we enjoy what we create.. without us your blog would be a quiet place… mine example is written in the format of self discovery a dairy and there are those who read there seldom leave comments but I know they are there from every country where scientologist live. No comments yet we share the universe we use different level of communication..
              You might think I am a raving lunatic and that to is fine but you must see some value because so far you have only erased on comment in 3 years! we are not doing each other favors.. we, every one of us we serve and from that we gain..

            64. Yes, very true. I cherish the participation of all the commenters. I love the feed communication, and only very seldom does anyone overstep my somewhat invisible and moving line. Yup – lovin’ it.

            65. there are so many reason people posts, by now I have plowed through dozens of them my self and as my beliefs have changed that allowed me to see the very reasons others post.. I no longer post to show off, to impress, to lead or to show the way those concepts were flitting moments which evaporated when those reasons were confronted.
              mostly I am posting for passing time and in hope that I find different view which I have not heard before and I can examine that precious thought and by examining that I might find something valuable.
              I have no illusion what I say has importance or value since I will never know what important-valuable means for others.
              I cant lead the way simply because I have no idea what is the way, the Path for others.. what directions it lead and no one knows that path but self; and if somebody believes they are lost well bloody hell, they have to find the crumbs which they left behind and fallow that bit.
              Leaders are totally into selfs importance because they believe that they know!! and that is on assumption.
              I don’t even know where I am heading I have no idea where I will end up if I continue on the same path I am walking on now.. so how could I show the way for others?
              I read very interesting comment by Marty on the other day: I am bending backward to show the way..
              LRH too made the mistake by believing that his way his realities were the only existing what ever they were and we all had the same therefore we were all in the same box.. hehehe we are in the same box but it is a huge box not just a shoe box.
              But politics is not in my box…
              By the way don’t ask for me to give up on V…. no can do… that old goat has supplied lots of pleasure moments…and I love him for that..now if this gives him a big head he will be very very sorry!
              It is him, he is the reason I have lost all my teeth, I bit into him so often and so hard that they have broken out! I should send him the bill for new teeth!

            66. I actually think of you, Chris, as ‘that quiet guy who is usually spare with his words’. I think it may be good you have started to putting up rants every once in a while….

            67. LOL! Alright then Valkov. Marildi is intrigued by how intrigued I am with her and I understand that. That robotic droning about LRH says this and LRH says that and LRH invented the internet (joke), I think goddam! that’s pigheaded! So I just write to her since as I’ve said, she’s probably our best expert on Scientology and certainly the most vociferous one! If you count up each of our blog posts here, we are not equal in number but almost, mostly the same order of magnitude. I hate the reasonable way that Scientology can be promoted and it irks me to see that be published without a counterpoint for people to compare, so I write. That’s just where I am at this month. GOODNIGHT! hahaha

            68. I was always aware of that but spice I have added.
              But my rating was no better or worst than other bloggers just different!
              We all have given our best and worst including you.. That is blogging and I like to add I have learned a lot and thank you for the space you have allowed for open communication.

            69. Geir I have grown up with Victorian mannerism behavior was the must. OHHH very proper, very acceptable. very fitting into other proper groups. and I lived with that and slowly that lovely valance melted away and it was replaced with the flowery interpretation of the langue I leaned as a child and slang American-Canadian-Hungarian mixed in a big pot and flows like hot lava and I like it and those who really know me love it .

            70. “The above is a knowing and deliberate lie.”

              Deliberate statement, yes. Why a lie? You do not practice what you preach, do you? If the processes of Scientology are as pertinent and powerful as you proselytize, why would you refuse to participate in the sacrament? You do refuse, don’t you?

              My intention is to speak my mind with regard to the ideology of Scientology and then for ideologies in general. When you blog your opinions on a public forum, you invite others to speak or utter upon them, don’t you? You wouldn’t want to censor my speaking my mind, would you? Do you appreciate that my opinion on Scientology is validly my own opinion and that I should have the right and responsibility to say it, or would you and others be better off if I would keep quiet? Would it be better if I were censored Marildi? Would that benefit Scientology?

            71. “It may be that Scientology only seems complex to those who don’t understand its basic simplicities.”

              Ideologies could be described as a type of mental virus. Once implanted, they take root and grow. When they fail to perform as promised, the person subscribing to those ideologies challenge first every ancillary facet of the ideology such as the people and policies surrounding the subject first. When one is a true believer and when one subscribes fully to an ideology, such as Scientology, the framework of that ideology takes root within one’s mind and grows. It is joins with the life support functions of the person so that it becomes painful and feels dangerous to remove the ideology. For a metaphor, one can look at how the xenomorph in the movie “Aliens” takes root and grows.

            72. “It may be that Scientology only seems complex to those who don’t understand its basic simplicities.”

              When a person mentally commits everything that they have and everything that they are to an ideology, like methamphetamine psychosis, it is very complex and difficult to extract oneself and return to a mental state similar to the one left behind before the infection. Like methamphetamine addiction, Hubbard demands and takes everything from a person.

            73. Your link “methamphetamine psychosis” leads to a definition of “infection”. Is that what you intended? It seems non-seq.

            74. “. . . leads to a definition of “infection”. Is that what you intended?”

              Yes, viral infection. Computer infection. Mental infection. Ideologies infect without an alert anti-viral mental system in place.

            75. i·de·ol·o·gy [ahy-dee-ol-uh-jee, id-ee-] Show IPA
              noun, plural i·de·ol·o·gies.
              1.
              the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group.
              2.
              such a body of doctrine, myth, etc., with reference to some political and social plan, as that of fascism, along with the devices for putting it into operation.
              3.
              Philosophy .
              a.
              the study of the nature and origin of ideas.
              b.
              a system that derives ideas exclusively from sensation.
              4.
              theorizing of a visionary or impractical nature.

              An interesting precursor to today’s ex-scientologists is a book published in 1949 titled “The God That Failed” which is a collection of 6 autobiographical essays by well-known authors who had converted to Communism, then later became anti-Communists. Their experiences seem very parallel to those of the ‘exes’.

            76. “Their experiences seem very parallel to those of the ‘exes’.”

              Thank you for that Valkov. Experiences of people extracting themselves from too deep of commitments to ideologies, I suspect are similar to one another. Possibly modern PTSD is related though I am surmising. It doesn’t seem that hard times create these mental disorders but betrayal by one’s ideologies may.

            77. Thank you Valkov. This seems pertinent to me as I can see myself and my experiences in this work. I find myself seeking to understand my own predisposition, my susceptibility to ideologies. Possibly we all have a particular predilection for a certain slant on ideologies. My own magnetism was toward The Factors of Scientology and the promise to unlock these by the processes of Scientology. Others had their own slant of susceptibility. Ultimately, one runs out of “Bridge” and if they are honest with themselves ask, “WTF?” I wanted to be a God and failed in this. Then the incoming justifications that “I’ve improved the game of life,” or “My sacroiliac has improved.” or “There is finally a chicken in every pot!” And then in the darkness we lie on our bunks and try to remember that we were to become Gods and need to admit that did not happen. If we are lucky, we reevaluate that earliest goal for Scientology and see what could apply today, possibly with more reality and move on. Fortunately for me, I feel whole again. I sleep well, I work well, I enjoy well. I have some small-and-growing-smaller unfinished business with the Church thugs and I am able to remember and to finish that bit of business, even at some future point but that does not hinder nor rob me of my more present time and satisfaction with current living. Most give the Frenchman’s wave to their experiences in Scientology and a very few are at war with Scientology. I feel lucky to think of Scientology only with reference to my experiences and how that has improved my awareness to avoid ideologies and cults. The rub is that I have to see them or see them coming and I hope I do.

            78. “It may be that Scientology only seems complex to those who don’t understand its basic simplicities.”

              How many simplicities make up a complexity? This statement bleeds of the red herring of the simplicity of Scientology. Never believe it. Scientology promises to un-condition the mind. This is one of the preliminary lies told by Hubbard. The only unconditioning of the mind that occurs is to make you understand that everything you’ve previously been taught is wrong. Scientology is one enormous treatment program containing millions of words engineered to condition one’s mind further, so that it can be gathered into the hive.

            79. So there is a reactive mind but you only believe that sometimes it is there other times no….not in affect.. now I wonder how one can decide when it is in affect or not?

            80. Knowingness. 😉

              But I bet that here again your definition is much broader than the way “reactive mind” is actually defined. To you, it includes the whole mind – in its entirety! 🙂 Which I would say is totally correct for a person who would like to exit this universe. 🙂

            81. 🙂 yes I look at the beliefs as a whole differently.. it seems every concept is a lock a invisible lock..if we believe in this concept we are locked into it. Till that lock is in place that concept belief will not allow any to see any other concepts.
              Interesting thing is that one can have concept in very similar content in place let say one has ten Apple: beautiful, sour, pink green, sweet, crunchy, juicy, tart, fragrant, green, etc.. and we have choices now how to label that apple..
              Every choice one makes and it seems we have many has the origin which was experienced some other place some other time..
              Please my dear I am not running down any ones belief not even V’s. why should I? what would be the point? what would be the gain?
              No gain in disagreements.. hehehe but one can have fun doing that as I am targeting V… but of course people belief they have that lock in place if the beliefs of others are demolished as in debate they are winning, they are smarter, better than the other person and that gives them a solid stand…above the others this gives the smug feeling…superior… nose up in the air..: see the choices even here? they are just different locks the person gotten locked into by ”winning”! By winning that debate the person has moved from one beliefs into other one… which by belief is a better place to be in..woooooff!
              No , I don’t have those view points as locks any longer… because I truly believe that I am not in better position than any one even after 100000 hours of what ever.. NO I AM NOT Better just have different views how I see other realities.. Never ever better.. . better is a lock.. a choice from other locks… which in place would not allow me to continue viewing exploring demolishing other solid locks.. 🙂

            82. E., words express concepts or thoughts, and in conversation they usually do just as you are saying and only give a person the idea of some object, or some earlier concept. And yes, words and concepts are dual in nature – good/bad, smart/stupid, out/in, etc.

              But in this video, the guy does a great job of describing why it is that sometimes words can be like art. Art uses the senses or perception (sound for music, sight for paintings, etc.) in order to take a person on a spiritual journey back to pure AWARENESS – in other words, back to the actual SOURCE of perception of the work of art.

              Similar to art, words and thoughts can take us to the experience of UNDERSTANDING or TRUTH – which again is simply taking us back to awareness, the SOURCE of understanding.

              Watch at least the first half (first 7 minutes or so) of this video to get the idea. But you might want to watch to the end where he also explains how NATURE can do this for us too – how it can dissolve perception into its true SOURCE. On this point, I’m sure you know precisely what he means since you do this all the time with the experience of your garden.

            83. Geir …”I don’t believe there is a reactive mind. “” than you explain how you see the same things as what LRH called the reactive mind..I admit sounds much better, but in my view.. one can dress up something put it in a nice package but still is what is..
              one can call.. feces feces delicately or simply in the vulgar way..shit… it is the same and we recognise the smell no matter what name tag is put on it.
              In Hungarian we even had a nice nick name coined kaka.. but it was still the same.:manure.

            84. Marildi just think what serenity means, a person has on idea of on action and that person puts a label on that..
              Serenity is intangible.. same as love… one has to put significances beside it to be comprehendible.

            85. Geir it would be really bad if every body would agree with everybody.. I think that state could be called than state of serenity. No change.. even flow.. nothing moving. no desire to do anything just sitting like a lump on the log… 🙂 that I would not like but if we would fall into that shit we could not clime out of it because when nothing moving how could we change into different valance?

            86. Marildi;—” Just for your information.” reply to E.

              Hey Marrrrilday! A little off topic here, but would you kindly enlighten me as to what you do for a living ? (minus any Q & A, if you would do that for me?) 🙂

            87. I’m a copy editor. 😉

              (But why was it necessary to include the crack about “minus any Q&A”? 😛 )

  5. Agree with no forgiveness at all. I have certain incomplete actions with regard to my family, disconnection, etc., but all my attention that is still attached to these things is simply there as something left to handle. I do not need an apology from the Church, etc., I need the Church to do a right thing and that is all. When these ongoing abuses of my family are handled, that will be it for me. Nothing to forgive. I am already done with Scientology as a subject.

      1. …and here is this, its 6th, final chapter. So one can then ask:
        what’s next? As you say Geir, ‘ i ‘ am a work in progress..also ‘who’
        knows…also ‘placebo'(=as you please). As it looks to me this Who-Source is pleasing itself in infinite ways and forms to experience the joy of creating or just staying at rest. And it
        ‘WILL’ do so, freely. For me this is the meaning of FREE WILL.
        So: what next? Anything being created out of the FREE WILL
        FLOW of LIFE SOURCE. So, what’s next? Does any of you know
        it for sure? Can one live in/as uncertainty? Yes…when this uncertainty starts, one gets a taste of its joy…and this joy is getting stonger and stronger…some say it’s all a Cosmic Joke.
        Is it?

        https://isene.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/onwill.pdf

  6. I could not agree more with the above YouTube. In fact these are my words.

    But there is still the question of timing. When exactly should you forgive?
    You cannot forgive someone who has not taken responsibility. Don’t forgive the bank robber at the time he is running away with the money. You should forgive him, when he understood what he has done, when he is bringing back the money and when he is taking responsibility for what he has caused. This includes reparation.

    I am struggling with this since months. Can I forgive my wife? Yes, I can … but it remains a timing issue. This question is not easy. Feelings constantly tell you to take revenge. And the more pain you had the less willing to forgive you are.

    Sometimes forgiveness is seen as weakness. The evil person will use it against you to launch another strike.

    Tough, is anybody having a solution? What can you do when someone else has not taken responsibility yet?

    There are several post entries on my blog. When searching for “we must forgive” you get for instance:
    http://barefacedmessiah.wordpress.com/2013/12/31/scientology-2014-when-to-forgive/

    1. barefacedmessiah: “When exactly should you forgive?
      You cannot forgive someone who has not taken responsibility.”

      I’d say the time to forgive is minimally when you recognize that the only effect of holding on to those negative emotions is that it’s affecting your own well being – and nothing and nobody else.

      This doesn’t mean you can’t continue taking responsibility for whatever you feel you should. But leaving it up to someone else to take responsibility is putting that person in charge of your own well being – and you may be waiting for a very long time. Btw, I get that you already pretty much know all this. 🙂

      Here’s a great little video that gives some everyday examples.

      1. Here’s a moving followup to the above, which I think illustrates how communication might fit in:

        1. I just loved that, Marildi. Great heart to heart. Even though there was a noticeable comm lag, the content reached her (eventually). …..sniff. 🙂

            1. Sob!..sniff…yeaah. Och.. th’ poorre wee li’l th’ng…sniff..(blow! blow!) (wipe.)

            2. I wasn’t sniffing because he was a “poorre wee li’l th’ng.” That would utterly belittle was actually a demonstration of depth and maturity and ability to communicate deep feelings – and to have the courage to carry on in spite of the welling up of emotion. That young “kid” is a MAN in my book

            3. Oops – left out on word. Should say: “…belittle WHAT was actually…”

            4. Whittt? Aye we’rr referrrr’n t’ the wee LASSIE, ay’ll hav’ ye noooo…. Marrrrrrilday! 🙂

            5. That would be just as patronizing. My tears were of joy.

              But I know you MEAN well. (How’s that for patronizing? 😀 )

        1. I could agree with that – both states would mean a high ability to be at cause. It might be easier for a Clear to forgive, i.e. to make that decision or postulate and follow through with it, since a Clear has become more self-determined. But anybody can have moments or periods of being able to respond like a Clear (per *Science of Survival*, for one reference).

  7. Geir –

    I have to say that I totally get your blog post and understand completely what your position is.

    I think it is productive and constructive, as so much of what you write and try to communicate is, and I support you fully in whatever you want to do.

    Leaving Scientology behind and moving on down the road is a good thing for anyone.

    You have been extremely helpful, and open and honest in your growth from Scientologist out into citizen of the wider world, and you have helped many people along the way.

    Whatever you want to do man, I am behind you.

    Thank you for all that you have done and for all the help that you have given to people who have been affected, or could be affected by Scientology.

    (You really need to publish “1984” in English)

    I am looking forward to your next steps, and intend to fuck with you just as I always have fucked with you, no matter what you decide to do.

    Alanzo

          1. just because having so incredibly different views that do not mean fight.. you might not believe it but I am very found of v… and I love dee. disagreement do not mean fight.. I wonder why it is so difficult to understand that different view do not mean hate dislike any other bad feelings. I only see experiences.. and I do experience everybody’s post as I write but as Marildi said it earlier we evaluate continually when we communicate.. even when we agree first we have to evaluate than we agree. So Gear.. here we are. evaluation is always present in communication… but the problem is we only want agreements and that cannot be. I am sorry that V believes I hate him.. far from that.. I really would love to meet him in person. that would be a lovely experience.

            1. Vinaire do believes that I look through hate filters.. I was talking of him.. I had a fight in Marties blog yes. that was a fight.. When attacked for using the Tech which has worked for me and I know forks for many others I strike back,.[4 OT attestation in Italy last few days alone!] V… who hardly had any auditing don’t believe in it therefore runs it down and many others do the same.. They wanted instant miracles to happen when went into the church and after few hundred or few thousands of hours in session. that has not happened to them it meant the Tech did not work!! It do not work that way… We been in this universe a very long time and we have accumulated immense amount of different believes and those are the filters still in existence and they all act now very one of them as stops. No one has audited much as I have and I am still finding masses of energies which is in perfect working order!
              There are few who fight back as I do.. but I believe when one is put down for their beliefs that first attack is the opening that the hunting season is open. And I move into position with what ammunition I have available for me. and I fight not by their rules but by my own and I don’t have any! hehehe Fear has been erased [I have none ] 15-16 years back.. because no fear my attitude has changed incredibly. I no longer see through that heavy occluding filter and my world don’t fall apart if I am attacked.. very interesting how fear controls.. and by not controlled by that alone places me outside the group. I believe in the auditing Tech.. that it works but must be used and to attain those realities man do have but do not know how to attain them can be head by eraser -confrontation of those existing masses which blocks realities of different dimensions.

  8. Coincidently – as life is – a friend of mine had problems last night and texted about her ex: “I can forgive the past, but not the future.”
    This summarises it very well.

  9. I was meditating on forgiveness and letting go after reading Geirs replies.
    A few minutes into my meditation a thought popped in my head.
    “Fuk it”
    So I smiled, go up, made a coffee and sat with the family.
    🙂

    1. Boy, nuttin’ works better than ‘just DOING it’!! (especially when you REALLY fuck it!) 🙂

  10. Geir…”Geir. “This is where I am at” ” The world without war insanity and crime…no thanks.”
    Two very different concept you have presented one after the other and they contradict big time .DR Jekyll ..Mr H….
    Yes I can by that that you are capable one day totting a hand gun playing cops and robbers for a bit of adrenal flow and the fallowing day sniffing at daisies and letting it all go.. meanwhile you can do big arising speeches and do a bit of demonstration for show!
    Yes.. we all can be very different.. But I believe you throw in ideas [ bones] and see what happens who will bite… this is not real.. not even fun…

    1. I write what’s on my heart, that’s all.

      What I am exploring currently is life’s dichotomy between the serene and adventures. We seem to want adventures, but we long for serenity. But serenity is not good except for breathers between adventures. And so both are needed. But complete, no-adventure world serenity? Nope. That would be unlivable.

      1. I can see and understand your view… but there is more to life than what is around here… much more.. I don’t believe in serenity as a state.. to me that is unreal but I am looking at happiness as a creative life-force. I believe I have found the key to creativity..

        1. ‘ i am looking at happiness as a creative life-force’…yes, me too
          ‘what i am exploring currently is life’s dichotomy between the serene
          and the adventures’ …to me it communicates just the above…

          1. Serene.. to me something wishy-washy, what is in fact serenity means? no opinion no reality on anything.. totally unbiased…It is not a state which one wish to attain and I don’t believe something can exist in this Universe… But happiness the highest form of existence can be attained and that level only contains pure form of life-force which looks like crushed diamond dust.. This light sparkling ENERGY IS when used is the ””postulating” MEST into existence. This is the MAGIC DUST which makes thing happen and was used by the powerful Wizards of the past to create and that creation could be seen-observed by others…Happiness the level or state is on untouchable state and this state when other enter into connect into changes their life.. The power of Happiness over rides all other reality.. darkness, negativity those dark energy masses cant survive in such a state =energy field. Love is a poor substitute, love is not a creative energy field since it only exist when in connection to energy masses.

            1. Yes, eliz…’this light sparkling ENERGY IS when used is the “postulating” MEST into existence’. This is…which makes
              things happen’. In my reality, it is this ‘energy’ which is underlying
              communication and when it is let ‘flow’ free, that is there is not
              even any intention in it what may or should ‘happen’, it changes
              the ‘reality’ of another person including postulates, beliefs.That is,
              as only it has the power to ‘create’, it also has the power of
              ‘uncreate’. And it is ‘impersonal’. When the illusion of the ‘me
              doing it’ is there, we get the ‘games’ with winnings, losses, fights etc. I do not see any problem with that when it is conscious.
              Yes…that free energy field is changing whatever enters it…
              i don’t see love as a ‘poor substitute’…actually the way i see it,
              when the ‘sparkling energy’ is there and one also loves the
              ‘energy masses’ only then can we get the true, irreversible and
              complete Change…
              an example for that could be that when there is that sparkling
              energy and one can completely love being human, one can now
              consciously play ‘being’ ‘human’…enter or not enter games and
              let others play theirs (this btw. is a peaceful, serene state of mind
              in which there is the ability of observing games without the need
              to interfere…interestingly it may also has the effect on the game
              being played and it changes, it is the power of presence, of observation which is ‘unbiased’…so, one then can enjoy the
              surprise of the change in the game)….this is the experience here

          2. Vinaire do believes that I look through hate filters.. I was talking of him.. I had a fight in Marties blog yes. that was a fight.. When attacked for using the Tech which has worked for me and I know forks for many others I strike back,.[4 OT attestation in Italy last few days alone!] V… who hardly had any auditing don’t believe in it therefore runs it down and many others do the same.. They wanted instant miracles to happen when went into the church and after few hundred or few thousands of hours in session. that has not happened to them it meant the Tech did not work!! It do not work that way… We been in this universe a very long time and we have accumulated immense amount of different believes and those are the filters still in existence and they all act now very one of them as stops. No one has audited much as I have and I am still finding masses of energies which is in perfect working order!
            There are few who fight back as I do.. but I believe when one is put down for their beliefs that first attack is the opening that the hunting season is open. And I move into position with what ammunition I have available for me. and I fight not by their rules but by my own and I don’t have any! hehehe Fear has been erased [I have none ] 15-16 years back.. because no fear my attitude has changed incredibly. I no longer see through that heavy occluding filter and my world don’t fall apart if I am attacked.. very interesting how fear controls.. and by not controlled by that alone places me outside the group. I believe in the auditing Tech.. that it works but must be used and to attain those realities man do have but do not know how to attain them can be head by eraser -confrontation of those existing masses which blocks realities of different dimensions.

            1. if you enjoy ‘fighting’, do it…i believe that the final understanding of the ‘tech’ is when one is AWARE of another’s AWARENESS and
              does not want to change his/her reality in any way as one then knows that this awareness is which is ‘doing’ that….
              does not want !! to change what is there…that is there is no
              intention in it…much like in auditing or in true meditation….

            2. Marianne.. fight is not a fight to me as it used to be.. now I wont back off when attacked .. there are ex scientologist.. well trained and had auditing when in the church they were doing their best to demolish alter the tech from with in.. and now these same people are doing the same. I wont back off when attacked by one of these suppressive persons. Hard to recognise these beings because they “”TALK” spirituality and they are very very smart and smooth..

            3. Racing was kidding, right ray? Haha, please explain ! Haha…me
              was writing it down but deleted it….or you get the joke without
              explanation, Elizabeth? Quite ‘ cosmic ‘…

            4. No M… I did not get it at all…I am on the slow side sometimes when it comes to jokes and how would I know what is on his “‘mind””?

    1. Ah Marianne, there is nothing to add. Adya has said all that needs to be said. One just needs to view this vid, and duplicate!
      …..that’s ALL. (BTW, it WAS an ack, joke, and kiss on the cheek, (smack!), all rolled into one!! 🙂

    2. Marianne, what I find most interesting,yet not surprising (given the yapping and woofing that takes place whenever Geir throws a meaty bone, into the frey), …is the limp response given to Geir’s latest OP, (Look Up).. What do YOU interpret that to mean?

      1. ‘What do YOU interpret that to mean? i don’t know ray what happens ‘whenever Geir throws a meaty bone into the frey’ but
        let me give you two recent examples for what happens when
        one or several persons make a decision and a bit of a doingness
        follows it.
        Geir posted the ‘This is where i am at’ and in it marildi two vids on
        the ‘science of happiness’…after that Geir posted the ‘Look up’.
        This morning a student told me the following: yesterday my brother asked me to go with him to the city in the evening. They
        met the bother’s friends as well. She said her brother had never
        done this before and this time she could get as close to him as never before, they talked all night and the friends were also amazing. Another student told me that he put an end to his on
        and off relationship with his girlfriend in a calm and relaxed way
        and got into com with a girl with whom he is on the same wavelenght and also with a boy who is going to help him with
        his professional knowledge in the area of marketing.
        There are several other examples around me.
        The way i see it: when a ‘one’ is changing, the ‘ONE’ (the whole)
        is changing based on the lines we are connected by. One decision
        is producing far-reaching waves, moving particles on their way….
        Your view of it, ray?

  11. ray

    …here is my ‘interpretation: eliz writes about the ‘magic dust’, the
    ‘sparkling energy’…i believe it’s time to wake up to the ‘fact’ that
    each ‘one’ of us is a manifestation of that…some emotions like
    anger, hostility, fear can hide this fact…but as it is in this song,
    they will soon go…i don’t know what will happen to those who
    are still stuck in them, what i see is that this sparkling energy
    is bringing about change at a faster and faster speed and to
    be in harmony with it alone results in a happier and happier
    state…

    …one great ‘exercise’ is what Geir posted, ‘Look up’ and get
    in com….the ‘sparkling energy’ thus can reveal itself…..

    1. Yes indeedy, my lovely. ‘Harmony’, is simply a wonderful place to hang out! ‘Connectedness’, ‘same wave-length’,’same page’, ARC, are just a couple of synonyms that also correlate the meaning. So much more, can be accomplished in a harmonious relationship. And that explains the purpose of ‘symbiosis’: Getting things done!.. or accomplished,.. with the minimum of opposition, and maximum co-operation. In fact, this really also describes ‘understanding’; — a mutually acceptable BE-ingness, co-operating in DO-ingness, in the direction of HAVE-ingness.(or accomplishment). Indeed, this is a principle, (harmony) which could just as well be used to define ‘peace’.though more broadly, defined as ‘alignment’. Hey, Sunshine, have you noticed though, that even the most vociferous antagonists, (sane one’s, that is!), when having gotten back enough of their ‘own medicine’, finally tire and opt for ‘peace’, or ‘harmony’ ??

      If you think about it, an orchestral conductor, as much as a team coach, or any precision based activity, depend utterly on real
      harmonious interaction, to produce the desired results.

      Naturally, none of this is able to include any certifiable ‘nut-jobs’, that cross our paths, all too frequently, hey? LOL 🙂

      –Ray

  12. Haha..if one gets the wavelenght of your post, no chance of not
    ‘waking up’ instantly..i had to wait to the end of laughing. Not to mention its content! I do not think one can say more about it after
    understanding what you write.
    Yes, i noticed that! Haha…in some cases one ‘punch’ as medicine is enough.
    One funny example from kung fu. You know, i am a beginner, i
    have been doing it for three months now. It’s a mixed group, beginners with professionals. The last training was hilarious.
    We were practising defense against group attacks. One part of it
    was: two guys grasping my two arms from both sides. As i did not
    remember the exact-precise moves what to do, i stopped and was
    aware of the flowing energy in my body. One of the guys asked
    me why i was not moving and with the utmost care and precision
    showed me the expected movement, softly, without using any
    force. It was in complete harmony with the flow of energy inside
    me. As a result of it, it made a perfect copy of it. The sparkling
    energy and the movement in perfect alignment. Then it just happened: i do not know ‘how’, but i precisely did the movement.
    The outcome was a ‘punch out’. The guy was surprised for an
    instant but then he laughed and said: that’s it!
    To anyone interested, i can say that kung fu is art…its wavelenght
    is the highest wavelenght of the universe…this is my experience
    of it. I am enjoying doing it, besides its lots of teachings, we laugh
    a lot.

    1. Too beautiful! Thanks for the info. I can see you’re ‘getting it all’ Sis’. Enjoy the learning process in the hands of the ‘masters’. They really can pass on so much more, with your conscious willingness to ‘duplicate’ Love it!

      –Ray.

  13. I am not surprised by that.. we have very little in common but again I can be very very wrong and that would not be news, now I have few questions I hope you will give on answer.
    do you believe in the existence of Fairies, Giants, Gnomes, Trolls, Do you believe in magic. have you ever conversed with any of those beings I mentioned? Have you seen them this life?

    1. It would help if we knew who you were addressing, E ?
      On my part, though: Nope…. only seen the physical mock – ups made of them, by others. As for subjective reality? Each of us need to make that determination, for ourselves, IMHO. 🙂

  14. Geir… not believing in something is good as believing has the same value or no value what so ever. I am not here to convince any one to believe in any crap I believe in. I have not seen your answer on my questions, have I missed it?

      1. Geir I was wondering if you believe in the existence. the universe of Fairies..Gnomes, Giants, Goblins and Little People who live in the forest and have they home in old tree trunks. This was the question.

          1. Thank you! that was my understanding.. and that is the reason we do not have reality on each other.. when The universe developed into the form -shape-and having bodies-believes there were 2 major universes and those represent the minuses and plusses. I am from the universe and represent those who believe in magic and those thinks which are not real to you. And on the other hand to me machinery-computers etc are alien things and love I don’t have for them. My sister belongs to the universe which contains no magic, no artistic abilities and we don’t have much liking for each other..She too went up on the Bridge did it all and don’t believe any of that. Two me 2+2 can come out any number and I am fine with the result and to her what I see and believe in is a totally bad. aberrated,thing.. and believes I am really on the bad space.. interesting realities.. totally fascinating. She even believes that I am stupid… hehehe. yet I have IQ so high it can not be measured. Filter wont allow her to see anything what I believe in.. So.. there you are… I am off to dreamland..You have a wonderful day!

  15. Where I am at: I understand Scientologists think that their religion compels them to impose their values on the rest of society, but please stop doing this. I do not agree with you that Scientology is a useful guide for living life. I will not ever agree that it is. This society is not exclusively yours, I live here, too.

    1. Chris, I think you would thoroughly enjoy reading this one of Mike Rinder’s latest posts – it’s all about the documentation of LRH and “R2-45”, fair game, etc from 1968.

          1. Nope, just saying this is very old news. What is odd is how some exces seem to berate any critic of Scientology when such is revealed by them, but go “oooh, wow” when Mike or Marty reveals the same. Odd, don’t you think?

            1. “What is odd is how some exes seem to berate any critic of Scientology when such is revealed by them, but go “oooh, wow” when Mike or Marty reveals the same.”

              That’s not generally the case. It’s the critics who gleefully congratulate them and jump on the band wagon. But there are still many comments like the one Roy Macgregor posted on the thread Valkov posted the link to. Here’s one paragraph of it:

              “LRH was at many times mean minded and vindictive. LRH was at other times kind and forgiving. He told lies about his personal life, but he discovered important truths about the human mind. He was a rocking genius in many of his thoughts and discoveries. Other people say, well if he was a not a perfect human, then his discoveries are bunk. Isaac Newton as a teen threatened to murder his mother and stepfather. Does that mean that apples may not fall? “ http://www.mikerindersblog.org/auditor-mag-2/#comment-48734

            2. I am well aware of the analogy to Newton – as I have used that analogy myself a few times. But it is faulty – because Newton researched physics while Hubbard researched a way to improve sanity. That Hubbard then displays fits of insanity speaks to the efficacy of his works. That Newton was an ass is irrelevant.

            3. The fact that LRH didn’t practice what he preached is also irrelevant.

            4. ”fits of insanity?” those were the unconfronted energy-masses. There are plenty of those showing on every person who have been in scientology or never even smelled that concept.
              Insanity simple means not fitting into the norm.. not acceptable by the so called normal persons simply because cant confront that concept. No such a thing -condition as insanity. But yes.. different what we believe in and what we agree to.

            5. Not so – because Scientology is supposed to motivate people to practice its preachings. There are plenty of drills to that effect. That a health diet guru weighs in at 400 pounds is not irrelevant. His followers may claim it is irrelevant. It still isn’t.

            6. No, he said there is a Bridge but that “you have to WALK on the Bridge!” And also:

              “I cannot promise you that you will make it. I can only provide the knowledge to give you your chance. The rest is up to you.”

            7. Yes, of course there are. But they have to be USED. Even the parts of tech that you yourself would agree work has to be APPLIED.

              What any particular individual gets out of Scientology depends, for one major thing, on the individual himself and his intention. LRH did not have control of the free will of others and never claimed to or assumed he did. He provided a means, and the rest was up to the person – and he knew that.

            8. The problem is that he didn’t even have control of his own free will – and frankly, his free will went south the more he invested his time in Scientology. And that is where the analogy to Newton fails.

            9. But methinks it is a telltale sign that Scientology is fundamentally flawed – just like that diet peddled by the 400 pound guru.

            10. I would say it’s more logical to conclude just the opposite. The fact that LRH’s own violation of basic Scientology principles led to his demise would more likely indicate there was something to them than not.

            11. “I would say it’s more logical to conclude just the opposite. The fact that LRH’s own violation of basic Scientology principles led to his demise would more likely indicate there was something to them than not.”

              Which basic Scientology principles do you say that Hubbard violated? Which were the most pertinent, the more basic?

            12. That the guru is a 400 pound fatty meat ball somewhat validates the diet he is selling…. hmm… yeah, that makes sense.

            13. If others had tremendous success with the fat guy’s methods, and still others were continuing to have great success, it would be “amazing logic” to now conclude that his methods didn’t work. It would be much more logical to assume that other factors could have entered in.

            14. Except if any “evidence” were purely anecdotal and in the form of “oh, this works great”, “I feel soooo keyed-out”, etc and no measurement of weight loss, I would say the logic above is fairly nutty.

            15. The same could be said for almost any spiritual practice. Just because there hasn’t (at least not yet) been much in the way of objective evidence doesn’t mean it’s nutty logic to consider that the anecdotal evidence may have validity – unless one is inclined to only give credence to the objective. THAT’S what I would call nutty. And I think you would too, in truth. but you still get a bit nutty when it comes to Scientology. 😉

            16. When a person reasonably desires to see evidence and interestedly says, “show me,” the theist goes nuts and calls the reasonable person “nutty” — old hat that. With no argument left, this seems to be all you’ve got left.

            17. You’re not tracking. What I am saying is that it is nutty logic to claim that the fact that Hubbard failed his own life and living is somehow supporting the claim that Scientology is effective – given that there is no real evidence of its effectiveness. Just like it is batshit to claim that the diet of the 400 pound porky guru is supported by the fact that he is close to dying from obesity just because some people claim – without any real evidence – that his diet does them wonders.

            18. I didn’t say that Hubbard’s failure supported the effectiveness of Scientology. I only pointed out that if he (or anyone) wasn’t following the principles of Scientology and then fails, it would be more logical to assume the possibility that those principles had validity than that they didn’t – whether or not there was evidence of their validity. Neither viewpoint is actual proof, but mine has more credibility to it than yours based on all the anecdotal evidence – which has to be taken into account in all this reasoning.

              And to carry on the analogy of the fat guy, he could have sustained an undiagnosed failure of the thyroid, for example.

              Btw, why do you yourself claim to have had great wins in Scientology although you don’t have objective proof?

            19. “Btw, why do you yourself claim to have had great wins in Scientology although you don’t have objective proof?”

              This is the rub between atheists and theists. When the atheist asks for objective proof of fantastic claims, the theist first cajoles the theist with glowing anecdotes. When the atheist then says, “That is nice but do you have any evidence?” The theist then begins to complain that the atheist is an unsavory person because they will not accept their anecdotes as evidence. But at the heart of this argument is not the belligerent heart of the atheist but rather the inability of the theist to understand the difference between a belief and a fact. Atheists do not have a problem with beliefs nor with anecdotes, they have a problem with beliefs and anecdotes being presented as facts. This to me seems like a small hurdle to jump for the two sides to get together, but apparently it is not.

            20. You are stuck in the same-old same-old dichotomizing.

              Existential fact vs. empirical fact. It is really completely inappropriate to look for apples on an orange tree, and vice-versa. They are 2 different realms of experience and existence, and it is “nutty” to get them confused. I still recommend Ken Wilbur’s A Brief History of Everything as a relatively short book that could expand
              your horizon on this problem. But you probably don’t see it as a problem, so go ahead and ignore this recommendation…..

            21. That you appeared to be saying one could rightfully ask for ‘objective’ proof’ of ‘subjective’, ‘existential’, experiences. I believe that is a fallacy, if that’s the basis of your thinking. So if that’s the case, I disagree with it. I failed to note which post I was responding to, so I can’t reference it without searching for it. Sorry.

            22. I question that LRH “failed his own life and living”. By your standards perhaps he did. But I have known people who would say the same about you simply because you got a divorce.

              I think LRH had several goals he wanted to accomplish and I think he largely succeeded in accomplishing them. In doing so he created his own death scenario, by seeing his goals and purposes through. I posted a comment about this on Mike’s blog, which got no response. Perhaps I will repost it here.

              A commenter there mentioned the existence of ‘hidden standards’ among people commenting on LRH’s life and work. I think he may have been right.

            23. “But I have known people who would say the same about you simply because you got a divorce.”

              Dude, Geir didn’t proselytize not getting divorced (that I know) and start a “no divorce cult” and take people’s money and swindle them with stories of being married for eternity.

            24. Oh, I don’t know that. Maybe you do. Maybe he “proselytized” it to her when he proposed, or when they took their vows. You know, “to have and to hold….. til death do us part.”
              Those are the standard vows in English, I don’t imagine they are much different in Nawshk, but I don’t know for sure. And I’m not going to ask him about the specifics of it all, that’s his personal business.

              However, the analogy stands. I have known people who would judge him negatively on that basis alone, knowing nothing more about him.

              You are a good friend for jumping in to defend him. Perhaps a bit misguided, but a good friend nonetheless.

            25. “Oh, I don’t know that. Maybe you do. Maybe he “proselytized” it to her when he proposed, or when they took their vows. You know, “to have and to hold….. til death do us part.””

              Maybe. My analogy stands as well as my relationship with Geir is not based on his marital status. You are right that some might judge but on this blog, EVERYTHING gets its share of judgement, hahaha

            26. I have no idea what you are talking about here. It’s not a hidden standard to read Dianetics and expect the promises made there to be fulfilled. None at all.

            27. “I think LRH had several goals he wanted to accomplish and I think he largely succeeded in accomplishing them.”

              You are right Valkov. Two of his goals: 1. LRH wanted to be famous and he was. 2. He wanted money and power and he got it.

            28. Was there a problem with what I wrote? I bow to your expertise in stubbornness. You pretend an imaginary debt to Hubbard, I see it the other way around. Scientology owes me. Without the “me’s” who worked for free, Scientology wouldn’t be anywhere and soon it won’t be.

            29. No problem what you wrote..you are antagonistic… do reread what I said It seems you not only know Marildi inside out but me also… Very interesting.
              If I pretend on imagery debt to Hubbard the same goes for you believing that you are own something. You have agreed to something and you did that work.. now you regret what you have done and you blame! I don’t own nothing to no one and no one owns me nothing I take responsibility for what I believe in and what I do. Now if you want to mention that you were brain washed.. do not go there.. not interested to hear about that kind of total crap. and hypnotism that belief that one was hypnotised don’t work. Those of you who believe you have a free will to do whatever should never mention being implanted by the church either . I am off the grid of discussion the church.

            30. As you say, what you see is in your universe. You mentioned hypnotism, not me. I know Marildi and I know you both by what you say and that is all I know. If you feel this is unfair and want me to know a different thing, then say something different. You can’t be both here and off the grid, you’ll need to pick.

            31. By believing that you know all by reading some post that is truly a mistake.. what you really know is what you have read into what Marildi or I have written, how you have understood what we have written, you know what your filter has allowed you to understand. You only can know from your view points. We don’t have the insight to really see how something meant to the person who has written the post. We only can assume and that is all we have on assumption what is there. I could talk to you till I am blue in the face, put my heart on the platter, beg you to PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING BECAUSE: but still you could not see more than your very own reality how I am. and this goes for me too how I see others. So don’t give me that you KNOW ME and you know Marildi too, no, you assume you know us and that is a very big difference.

            32. “By believing that you know all by reading some post that is truly a mistake.”

              If you reread what I wrote you’ll find your mistake.

            33. “We don’t have the insight to really see how something meant to the person who has written the post.”

              So you write, however, no one blogging here shoots from the hip with judgments flying about what they “know” more than you do. You’ve written mean spirited things to each person querying your nebulous posts about your unequaled knowledge about the Nature of the universe yet turn around and chasten anyone else knowing about things that you think they cannot know. It is an unequal and unfair double-standard that you apply when blogging. You should rethink some of this.

            34. “So don’t give me that you KNOW ME and you know Marildi too, no, you assume you know us and that is a very big difference.”

              I know what you write. If your writing isn’t creating the effects that you want, change your writing, don’t blame the reader.

            35. “You haven’t a clue about what I write.”

              Now you know what I know! Good then we are coming together. But I do read your writing, that’s what I know.

            36. We only have what we believe in. Any experience only means how we seen it. If we want to feel differently about something than it is Us who have to change our out outlook about that experience. I cant say please give me different feelings so I wont have this … You believe you have been sort changed by the church.. that is what you got.. you believe LRH was swindler etc.. that is what you have. You believe auditing tech don’t works, for you it do not work. I believe it works therefor for me it have.. you cant change my mind about what I believe and I have no desire to influence yours in any way.. You are happy and contented with you belief and that is the reason you do not wish to change anything.. that IS OK BY ME.

            37. Well, Marildi has clearly admitted she does not do any auditing or any courses. And that is what Chris finds hypocritical – that if the technology is as good as she claims, then why does she not do it?

            38. I do have on answer for why Marildi is not taking auditing at the moment but you guys are infidels so you would not believe that answer.. what Chris’s believes are about Marildi is totally irrelevant. What she post those quotations have value for some of the readers… But what Chris posts about Marildi what value that has? He simply want to destroy Marildies credibility and with that what she posts. Even the blind can see what he is doing.. Black PR… hehehehehe..

            39. I do not understand your objection to the opinions that I write. I am doing what you do. Is there something wrong with that? I see Marildi as that officer who sends their troops up out of protection to charge enemy fire but who then stay behind in safety ready to send more people out to do what she will not do. Why? I don’t know why. Maybe to see what will happen and then ask them about it. For me, if I believed in “psychic vampirism,” this would describe it.

            40. Geir there are two camps.. the believers and the infidels. We the believers could never ever make on infidel believe your beliefs will not allow to see differently. You folks want solid rock hard evidence.. yet you believe in love! and that is not rock hard and not solid, and it is a illusion same as any other belief we have.. even solidity is on illusion.

            41. Interesting straw man argument – and unnecessarily polarizing at that. As you may have noticed, my views have changed profoundly since I started blogging – and it will continue to change as I discover new information, new opinions, viewpoints and fact. I hope you will change, too. As for Marildi, I have pretty much given up any chance that she will change her viewpoints on much at all.

            42. And I have pretty much given up the idea that anything will change your fixed opinion about me – or even about Scientology. Sorry but you are not quite as free a thinker as you like to believe.

            43. Again, you’re not tracking. This whole discussion is precisely what I meant when we talked about the same old, same old back channel. You end up in these exchanges pretty much every time. There must be Some change that you can facilitate in yourself in order to not end up there again.

            44. OMG – that’s exactly what I thought about YOU when you spit out the same-old same-old – Marildi hasn’t changed and there is little chance she ever will. That was completely unnecessary inval and a pure throwback to an old line of discussion – and inval.

            45. “That was completely unnecessary inval and a pure throwback to an old line of discussion – and inval.”
              I see it as karma or justice. do unto others, does come back. You seem to be the inval, eval queen. Hey, that’s a compliment. You do remain constant and credit due Marildi.

            46. And why is it that you don’t see Chris as carrying on with the same-old same-old? I suggest it is because of your biases and not your “free thinking.”

            47. Frankly, I have seen Chris change a hell of a lot more than you. Although I certainly don’t agree with his world view, he moves in Some direction at least.

            48. Oh, I see – as long as a person moves “a hell of a lot” in SOME direction, no matter how off base, it’s better than making little or no change. That’s pretty irrational, IMHO.

              And you are still missing the point that it is Chris who keeps up the ceaseless same-old same-old with very little excuse. Even when I try to talk about something else he puts it into the framework of Scientology and turns it into a discussion about that. The man is utterly obsessed.

            49. It seems that to you it’s perfectly fine for Chris to be able to go on and on in the same old vein – but as soon as I have had enough and start to protest it, you jump in and accuse ME of continuing the same-old same-old. Not fair, Geir. And I do believe that this is the kind of discord that Chris intends.

            50. Or maybe you object to the fact that I even bring up Scientology at all and thus give Chris a “reason” to post about 20 to 1 the volume of comments in a frenzied attempt to counter mine. It sort of looks like that’s the case, Geir, based on the way things have transpired. You pointed out “same old same old” about me even though I was specifically responding to Chris’ incessant blather on the same old theme – while at the same time, you never said a word to him. You apparently can’t see how much he is actually the one who instigates and keeps the discussion at that level.

            51. What I see is that this place was nice and constructive when you had a leave of absence. You come back and it’s the same-old-same-old. Simple as that.
              “But-but-but HE STARTED IT!!!”
              Yeah right. Get off it. Move along. At least move. Somewhere. Life is motion. Stuckness solidifies into pigheadedness and then some. A rock tumbles into the rut and stays there. Free will moves, explores, makes mistakes, admits it, learn from it and moves along some more. Chris’ world view is further from mine than your’s is. But he is moving and exploring and thus not same-old’ing as much.

            52. Whenever I looked in on this place it was almost entirely inane and boring comments – and very inactive. The only time it gets active is when the subject of Scientology comes up. But you don’t allow that or any other subject to turn into a constructive discussion because of your personal biases and unwillingness to see that he DID start it and step in when you SHOULD.

            53. “Yeah right. Get off it. Move along. At least move. Somewhere. Life is motion. Stuckness solidifies into pigheadedness and then some. A rock tumbles into the rut and stays there. Free will moves, explores, makes mistakes, admits it, learn from it and moves along some more.”

              LIKE!

            54. “Chris’ incessant blather on the same old theme – while at the same time, you never said a word to him. You apparently can’t see how much he is actually the one who instigates and keeps the discussion at that level.”
              Call the kettle black, omg. Points on that one!

            55. Dee, you left out the first part of that quote:

              “You pointed out ‘same old same old’ about me even though I was specifically responding to Chris’ incessant blather…”

              Maybe you need me to draw you a picture. Chris went on and on about it and Geir had nothing to say – until I finally got tired of it and responded back. THEN he suddenly noticed the same-old-same-old. Get it?

            56. “Get it?”
              Yes, I get you and ‘it’ my dear. I will not go back over whole post to explain myself. Kettle stands.

            57. The implied question was, are you fair-minded enough to say the “pot” stands too?

            58. “The implied question was, are you fair-minded enough to say the “pot” stands too?”

              Yes! As far as I’m concerned I see you doing same thing you claim he’s doing. I won’t go further. Let it go…. 🙂

            59. Well, that’s easy for you to say. But as for me, I will go further because there was a big difference – which was that he badgered and needled for quite a while before I finally called him on it.

              Now do as you said, Dee, and let it go. 🙂

            60. One other thing. You wrote above: “There must be Some change that you can facilitate in yourself in order to not end up there again.”

              The only change you apparently would allow is that I either don’t say anything positive about Scientology or just put up with the constant needling that Chris is free to do.

            61. I never gotten the meaning of straw man… sorry.. If there is a free will than one needs to accept that what ever she doing is out of free will and she has her reasons same as we have our own for doing what we are experiencing.. what would we benefit if she would change something about her self? Is it important, would we gain something, or we just have the need to change others? would we like her more for it, would she be more valuable, worthy persons? Or because she or I wont tell her reason. that makes her not OK. stubborn,..Geir do you hang out all your laundry on the line.. or there are some stuff you don’t want to talk about? Look in my direction. I have disclosed everything about me.. and hehehe.. some believes because I am open written about my experiences I am off my rocker..human nature is to evaluate. Chris is riding a dead nag and still beating that unmoving body . Not his business why she wont have auditing at this moment and that do not make her wrong in any ways. Chris is challenging her and wants that secret in his possession so he could destroy that too. Chris takes joy in destruction.

            62. Geir…if you want to give up on somebody and before you do that than take a closer look at every one of us who comment in your blog.. Start with Alanzo Dio… Vinnie… Chris.. Elizabeth. Valkov.. Marianne.. Racer! Do some analytical evaluation who has changed or not but first what change is in your reality. what one can do to make you belief one had changes in ones views?

            63. If you are that than why not accept that we are too. By the way you said you hope I too will change too. HEHEHE no chance on that from where you stand because you do not believe in auditing..therefore the work I have done for 41 years solo auditing and the changes I have gained from that work in your ”eyes” do not exist.. therefore there is no chance of me changing in the future, since I am doing the same old , same old.. confronting the not understood ! 🙂 How do you like that pistol! 🙂

            64. Yes. Geir Isene I am writing to you..and have written that because you give that impression out…I never ever read in your blog that you have written promoted auditing. Not once! But I recall after you met Karen you said you will be getting more auditing. If you have has some since than you kept it under your hat.

            65. Right about the amnesia. I stand corrected and I am off into my corner! I am glad I have questioned your belief, this way you have pointed toward what I have forgotten and even my comments there! Well, I never have claimed perfection and rightly so, I cant. The only explanation I have that I don’t have memory..hehehe.. you try that one my friend and see how life can be lived witout. 🙂 So please accept my apology.

            66. 🙂 I knew that and by now you also know I don’t mind being wrong in fact I welcome that but it has to be true when my nose is pointed toward that fact.. Crap what Chris is shouting is not what I take as truth.

            67. “Crap what Chris is shouting is not what I take as truth.”

              Ah, so now your crap is smelling a little better than my crap? Glad you think so!

            68. I would like to make a correction I never read that you have promoted auditing but I have not read everything in your blog so I can be wrong.

            69. OK… I be fair what label I hang on you and that is my reality how I see you.OH HH I am not to keen analysing. since that is assumption..I think this over…who wants to step into a cow flap of ones own making? 🙂

            70. “Geir there are two camps”

              E, actually there are many camps. As many camps as people. That’s how many personal realities there are.

            71. “Without the “me’s” who worked for free, Scientology wouldn’t be anywhere and soon it won’t be.”

              Hear, hear! Out exchange!

            72. Or as Nikolai Berdyaev wrote in 1946, (Ken Wilbur was not even born then),
              “Spirit and Reality (1946)[edit]

              Spirit is never an object; nor a spiritual reality an objective one.
              Spirit is never an object; nor a spiritual reality an objective one. In the so-called objective world there’s no such nature, thing, or objective reality as spirit. Hence it is easy to deny the reality of spirit. God is spirit because he is not object, because he is subject.
              p. 10
              Spirit, like flame, like freedom, like creativeness, is opposed to any social stagnation or any lifeless tradition. In terms of Kantian philosophy — terms which I consider erroneous and confusing — spirit appears as a thing in itself and objectification as a phenomenon. Another and truer definition would be, spirit is freedom and objectification is nature (not in the romantic sense). Objectification has two aspects: on the one hand it denotes the fallen, divided and servile world, in which the existential subjects, the personalities, are materialized. On the other it comprehends the agency of the personal subject, of spirit tending to reinforce ties and communications in this fallen world. Hence objectification is related to the problem of culture, and in this consists the whole complexity of the problem.
              In objectification there are no primal realities, but only symbols. The objective spirit is merely a symbolism of spirit. Spirit is realistic while cultural and social life are symbolical. In the object there is never any reality, but only the symbol of reality. The subject alone always has reality. Therefore in objectification and in its product, the objective spirit, there can be no sacred reality, but only its symbolism. In the objective history of the world nothing transpires but a conventional symbolism; the idea of sacredness is peculiar to the existential world, to existential subjects. The real depths of spirit are apprehensible only existentially in the personal experience of destiny, in its suffering, nostalgia, love, creation, freedom and death.”

            73. “It would be much more logical to assume that other factors could have entered in.”

              In your example, the other people lost weight using the fat man’s methods. Therefore the weight loss methods should be seriously considered. However, in the real-life example of Scientology, Hubbard died running from the Law and bereft of family and friends and in the same way for which he maligned Simon Boliver. There are no Clears and no OT’s. Your analogy fails.

            74. Frankly Chris, you are Clear as I understand the term. You can say all you want, but it is unlikely I will change my mind.

            75. I did achieve a particular mental state working toward Clear which I have not lost, which feeling/em> I can resurrect at will. The thing with me and the way I see this ideology is as a well defined mental construct, a theater, a game. Advanced levels and states of being in Scientology are slippery at best. Hubbard defines them, the game, and when that definition is falsified, Hubbard or other Scientologists in discussion simply move the goalposts. I know I that I write unkindly about Scientology technology because taken as a whole, it is not authentic. I do not scrap every single datum of Scientology individually, I scrap Scientology as a whole. As a religion it fails to deliver what it promises and per its own definitions of itself, may not be critically scrutinized, revised or improved. In or out of Scientology, I am the same changing and morphing person I ever was. I am more near the back door of this existence than the middle of it as I know it. Thankfully, I have shed religion in time to level out any anxieties which may have been implanted by the several religions with which I’ve been aquainted. Today was a good day, one daughter graduated 8th grade with an A average, is industrious, intelligent and strong. I do live life happily and approach death joyfully. When the last days come, I do not expect to require the Vistarilthat Hubbard needed to face the sharp and jagged edges of his last moments.

            76. “Frankly Chris, you are Clear as I understand the term. You can say all you want, but it is unlikely I will change my mind.”

              Am I Clear? I would say that I have “risen above the bank” that Hubbard created.

            77. OK Chris, whatever! However what I posted is based on my perception that you have also “risen above” much of the “bank” that you had created before you went into Scientology. After all, what had made you so susceptible to Scientology? It was not Hubbard who created that.

            78. “After all, what had made you so susceptible to Scientology? It was not Hubbard who created that.”

              You are right about that. I have been noticing throughout my recovery that I am receptive to ideologies. Why? Is something I am still working on (not very hard) but I will take it up more later as I am quite aware of it.

            79. Well, isn’t ‘ideology’ basically the study and use of ideas? Like anything else people do, is there really any point to overthinking it? Being aware of one’s ideological positions is healthy, and it is an increase of awareness of awareness, over not being aware of that kind of thing.

              This of course assumes that such increase of awareness is a good thing, which is itself an ideological statement.

              Any evaluation you make of anything at all is fundamentally the result of some kind of ‘ideological’ basis, isn’t it?

              Isn’t that the time-honored choice, to be more aware or just remain a sleepwalker? Isn’t that what it’s all about, for some people? And not for others, at any given time?

            80. yes, you are right there are a few ways to use the word ideology. when I use it with a negative connotation, I am referring to the ideologies that approach cult think, not just the world of ideas.

            81. “Am I Clear? I would say that I have “risen above the bank” that Hubbard created.”

              What I mean by that is that the mental construct of Scientology was truly invented by Hubbard. He did bring the entire thing together and it was there in place ready for me to learn it. I had to learn to have a reactive mind to then apply the processes to rid myself of it, to discover I had no reactive mind except the one I was creating. A bit circular. Exercising my mind in such a way was very good practice, I just didn’t know why at the time. In retrospect, having to bring as many frames of reference as I can to bear on the arguing that we do here was better practice and the gains that I wanted to achieve in Scientology, I did on my own and through blogging here AFTER breaking the brainwashing of Scientology with the solo auditing of Scientology. Quite the run-on sentence and mouthful but that is how I see it from where I am at now.

            82. “Yes, of course there are. But they have to be USED. Even the parts of tech that you yourself would agree work has to be APPLIED.”

              You’ve misjudged me and done me an injustice when you said I couldn’t tell the difference between Scientology and the Church of Scientology. As I’ve discussed and argued with you about Scientology, it’s become more real to me that you really do belong in the Church and I cannot imagine why that you are not. Your preaching of “do as I say and not as I do” is perfect Hubbardian Scientology, the type the Church of Scientology practices. IAS, OSA, and RTC should all be competing for your attention. I am curious if you’ve given your blogging a statistic and VFP. Have you?

            83. “I am curious if you’ve given your blogging a statistic and VFP. Have you?”
              Har, har! Geir is a prime target, so it’s reasonable to think that.

            84. “What any particular individual gets out of Scientology depends, for one major thing, on the individual himself and his intention. LRH did not have control of the free will of others and never claimed to or assumed he did. He provided a means, and the rest was up to the person – and he knew that.”

              This is true of everyone, substitute “life” for Scientology and you have your “everyone knows.” Hubbard didn’t have control of others only to the degree that they refused him for he asked for unconditional control of his staff to a degree only dreamed of fondly by our Armed Forces. “He provided a means, and the rest was up to the person . . . ” is precisely the Hubbardian claptrap that fills the books and HCOBs. This type of verbiage demonstrates a level of conditioning, mind control, and brainwashing that is the true aim of Scientology and hoped for by ideologies everywhere.

            85. Yet there are first hand accounts on ESMB which falsify your thesis, of the people closest to LRH who filtered his outbursts and did not, would not, pass along some of his mean and impulsively spoken orders. Read the Apollo thread.

              However, those who went in with a tendency to be servile, or looking to surrender themselves, were not necessarily refused.

            86. “However, those who went in with a tendency to be servile, or looking to surrender themselves, were not necessarily refused.”

              Dude, those people are long ago dead or gone from Scientology. You are probably personally aware of all who remain and how many can that be? Yeah, I am a very servile guy! I’m showing this to my wife then she will know for sure how submissive I am! I did not join the Sea Org looking to surrender but to fight alongside Ron to save all mankind and the planet. If you mock this I shall actually lose my respect for you as we tried hard and gave all, some their lives complete. You defend the Tech today wistfully as something which shouldn’t be lost. But I’ve gone the distance and worked my way all the way through it and out the other side and my own testimony and anecdotal evidence is that is a good thing to have finished. I like you Valkov and you’ve got good ideas and cajones but imagine in your thinking when you were most interested in Scientology and I believe you’ve been to Flag, of packing up your family, dumping your MEST and going off to war with LRH. Take the viewpoint that back when you turned down the opportunity to do that instead you had gone ahead and said, “Honey, pack a duffel, we’re going to help LRH clear the planet.” It was scary and we were courageous. The Bible quotes Jesus as telling his would-be disciples, “If any man would follow me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Well, we did that brother. We did that.

            87. Chris, I knew when I posted that word, that it was likely a BIG button. Service is not a bad word. i did not serve, for whatever reason. When I visited Flag, it was already sinking like the Titanic – it was around when Lisa died I believe. The fear, desperation, and even hopelessness were very palpable. I think the only ones hanging on to some hope were the auditors. There was no way I could have gotten on board with what I perceived, without even
              knowing what or why.

              In fact, I could not have gotten on board even 5 years earlier at my local org. It had become too “churchy”. If my wife had been into it possibly it could have been something we did together, but she wasn’t. I guess that was my ‘karma’. Was that good or bad karma? You tell me and we’ll both know. In the meantime you went Clear and I did not. I envy you that. But I do not envy you the rest of it. But I cringe at the number of well-meaning, guileless people like you and Al who were roped in and used. That was exactly why LRH had to die the way he did, by his own Code of Honor, he was his own executioner. He knew he deserved nothing better, in terms of that individual lifetime. I think I’ll copy/post my rant about that from MIke’s blog.

            88. Sensitive and vulnerable post Val. Thank you. Did you do the right thing? Out here in the world, to me and anyone else it’s all good. For you? That’s just up to you whether you didn’t put a foot on a path you wanted to walk, only you know. Yet, you’ve demonstrated to me on this blog that you are knowledgeable about people and the mind regardless of Scientology. For me, I would hate to think you had a regret such as you missed something you could only have gotten in Scientology because my opinion is that was not necessary. Your intuition there at Flag was probably very good and you may have saved your family and health by stepping down instead of up. No prejudice here from me about that. None.

            89. “Honey, pack a duffel, we’re going to help LRH clear the planet.” It was scary and we were courageous. The Bible quotes Jesus as telling his would-be disciples, “If any man would follow me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Well, we did that brother. We did that.”

              Right. Some see the errors of their ways and others don’t wake-up, while they live in a bubble world, just to make themselves right! What happened to pan-determinism? Off the top of hat, think it fits, if not, fagetaboutit!

            90. “And there is no writings, drills or other tools in Scientology to motivate a person to ‘walk that bridge’?”

              There are threats and threatening. That should be enough. Oh wait, you mean, “You could be like this Clear, free from disease and with perfect memory!” That kind of motivation?

            91. No, he said there is a Bridge but that “you have to WALK on the Bridge!” And also: “I cannot promise you that you will make it. I can only provide the knowledge to give you your chance. The rest is up to you.”

              Seriously, what is your intention about going OT? Don’t you want to know who you are when you die? What will happen if you die without Hubbard? That little clinker you call a soul will not have a chance without completing the Bridge this life. I’m paraphrasing correctly aren’t I?

            92. “The fact that LRH didn’t practice what he preached is also irrelevant.”

              It becomes relevant when investigating why Scientology doesn’t deliver what it promises while defrauding its congregations of billions of dollars. Hubbard became rich doing this. Other charlatans have been prosecuted for less.

            93. “Hubbard researched a way to improve sanity”? Really? I never thought of it quite that way, although he did have quite a lot to say about it.

              It would be a good separate OP! There is much to discuss/debate along those lines. A good start might be for everyone to read a book such as “Why Can’t We Be Good?” by Jacon Needleman:

              http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/books/books.php?id=16625

              http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/111327.Why_Can_t_We_Be_Good_

              This is the fundamental problem relating to Ethics. is it true that to be Sane is to be Ethical? Does increasing the Sanity of a person somehow totally eliminate his destructive behavior? How does this relate to truisms like “Politics is the art of the possible”?

              I think these blogs and discussion groups are in a rut, stuck on whether and how much was LRH “crazy”, or was he “just a venal greedy con man”, etc.

              Nobody is thinking much out of the box. There are really ‘hidden standards’ floating around. It’s not too surprising, since this issue has never been successfully resolved by humans even since Plato’s time; actually before, as it is the central focus of works like the Baghavad Gita which was coming out of a long tradition of philosophy in India.

            94. Valkov

              ”I think these blogs and discussion groups are in a rut, stuck on whether and how much was LRH “crazy”, or was he “just a venal greedy con man”, etc.”
              My take on those labels that to some commenter who use those expression, that sounds important. valuable and expresses that they really know who LRH was when somebody started and used that scientology is Hypnotic etc.. well that word cut on and become very fashionable to use. Those who use that word don’t have clue what that means. but sounds smart.. knowing.. with-it.

            95. “It’s not too surprising, since this issue has never been successfully resolved by humans even since Plato’s time; actually before, as it is the central focus of works like the Baghavad Gita which was coming out of a long tradition of philosophy in India.”

              Say more about why you believe this has never been successfully resolved and please be clear about “it.”

              When I read that I see an underlying assumption that “it” is something everyone agrees is “it.” Also that everyone wants to solve. Also the assumption that if everyone has not successfully resolved “it” then resolving “it” has failed.

            96. The ‘it’ is the question “Why can’t we be good?” It is th equestion(s) of ethics and morality, the questions of what is good and what is not, and whether or not there is innate knowledge of this kind of thing in human beings. “It” is what you are always talking about here, with regards to LRH – your judgements and evaluations of him. Where do those come from? What is their basis? Do you have a built-in “organic sense” of these things, that once awakened goes to work adding that dimesnion to your being?

              Or is it true what the Ancient Hawaiians used to say, “One man’s meat is another man’s poi, son.” ?

            97. “…the questions of what is good and what is not, and whether or not there is innate knowledge of this kind of thing in human beings.”

              Val, I think Tom Campbell has answered those questions quite well – and quite simply. He’s the physicist who became a consciousness researcher and spent 3 decades plus experimenting with out-of-body experiences. Several years ago wrote his now well-known book *My Big TOE* (TOE = Theory of Everything) – which he calls a B-I-G TOE because it incorporates not just physics and objective reality but metaphysics and everything “paranormal” .

              His basis for ethics begins with the only true fundamental, which is “consciousness” and the purpose of consciousness – which is to evolve to higher states. In this video he says how that could be done and it has everything to do with ethics. If you’re interested, watch even the first 10 minutes to get the idea.

            98. Marildi, I think you just like ideologies. Frameworks to help reinforce your idea that there is a precisely real world waiting to be harnessed by the right ideology. You just seem hooked by Tom Campbell says this and adyashanti says that and LRH says this and that. I don’t see it that way. It hurts to give up ideologies when they are providing mental comfort but to get our feet up under ourselves and our center of gravity between them we have to. Otherwise we leave ourselves gullible and open to cult think and destructive ideologies.

            99. And you have just expressed YOUR ideology based on your own beliefs and assumptions – although you probably can’t see that. I happen to think that people can learn from others and that knowledge can be built on in that way – by then making it our own as well as by adding to it from our own insights. But your particular belief system is one that I would never quote because I don’t share that worldview with you in any way. Have your exchanges with someone else, Chris, I’m not interested. Sorry, but I’ve learned that we are in parallel universes.

            100. Funny that you’ve squirrelled Scientology away from anything recognizable all the while quoting it perfectly. Like Hubbard, the tech applies to others, not you.

            101. Marildi, Do you know what a Judas goat is? It’s not my ideology we’re arguing. It’s your Scientology that you preach but won’t do. It is hyprocritical to push people toward conditioning and brainwashing while refusing to sip from the same cup. When you see that, it will be an uncomfortable moment.

            102. “Have your exchanges with someone else, Chris, I’m not interested. Sorry, but I’ve learned that we are in parallel universes.”
              I see no problem communicating from parallel universes since we can learn much more.

            103. Dee, you may not have enough auditor training to know that it’s not a light matter to give a person a wrong indication – in fact, there’s nothing worse one can do with a “communication.” Chris, on the other hand, knows very well what he’s doing, in spite of the continuous facade he tries to put in place. I’ve come to see that, and will no longer give him any benefit of the doubt. When there is no trust whatsoever in a comm line, it’s best to cut it.

            104. “Dee, you may not have enough auditor training to know that it’s not a light matter to give a person a wrong indication – in fact, there’s nothing worse one can do with a “communication.”

              Marildi, Do you know how trained I was? However, I do recognize negative, assuming statements. How trained were you in auditing? Does it really matter to have medals? My certs were cancelled as a Special Person. I know one sure thing, it’s better to communicate than not!

              Thanks for speaking to me 🙂

            105. On the other hand, when marildi gets done with what she’s doing, she may have a REALLY BIG COGNITION!

              I recall the story of a guy back in the 1980 who was on Expanded Dianetics auditing as a pc for what seemed like FOREVER to his auditor, but when he cognited it was a huge one. I believe he was walking on air for th erest of his life, or some years, anyway. Today’s CoS would never let him get away with that!

            106. I figured that, Val. My sister is really into Ken Wilbur and also likes Tom Campbell a lot. I keep meaning to read that book of Wilbur’s you recommended. So many things on my reading list!

            107. Wilbur is not an exciting lively read, but he has done some good thinking, integrating Eastern and Western psychologies. But if you can plow through him a little bit at a time, I think it’s worth it. His writing is…. dense? That’s how he keeps it concise. Does that make any sense? I haven’t even finished the book myself!

            108. Doesn’t Wilbur have a website too – with various charts and things that sum up his ideas?

              That’s funny how you describe his writing. I found Tom Cambell’s book to be absolutely tedious reading! But I love his youtube interviews and seminars – his lovely beingness speaks well for him.

            109. Btw, Val, I find it really interesting how many of the various “thinkers” come up with essentially the same viewpoints even though they express them differently. And so many of their ideas also align with LRH’s.

              Another thing I have been amazed at is how many people believe in conspiracy theories, including the ones about inter-dimensional beings who are operating to control and enslave humans – here again, like what LRH talked about in the controversial OT VIII bulletin. I mean, people are saying just the kinds of things he wrote about in that issue. David icke, Cameron Day, and others whose names I can’t think of offhand.

            110. The ‘witchunt’ thing started long before. Weren’t they doing that stuff during the Inquisition? And before that it was “heretics”, trying to wipe out the gnostic sects.

              And don’t forget the arguably biggest one – the Jews?

              So who promoted that, and the witch hunts? Perhaps some people really are evil and destructive? Who promotes those kind of “conspiracy theories”?

              I don’t suppose you think the rich 1% are getting richer by accident, do you?

              I believe that “all wars are banker’s wars”. Just follow the money.

            111. Fair enough. But I’m sure we could also think of examples of things that were considered mere “conspiracy theories” which turned out to be true.

              But I’m actually more interested in the first point I made – about the fact that so many thinkers of both the past and present have come up with the same ideas about reality and existence. Especially when it’s not a matter of intellectual theorizing but experiential realities that line up.

            112. Such experimental realities are questionable when it relies merely on the claim that they are real or experimental. There have been similar “experimental realities” in history that correlate. The pandemoneums of various mythologies correlate amazingly well across the world in ancient times. Most cultures had a Sun God, a God of the weathers, the crops, the underworld, etc. The point I am making is that correlating world views does not indicate truth. Evidence does.

            113. The word I used wasn’t experimental – it was experiential. And by that I mean direct, personal experience.

            114. “And by that I mean direct, personal experience.”

              You can argue to allow beliefs to become facts but no, it’s not going to happen. This is a dead end. Like the value of pi, you are arguing that you can get to the end of this calculation when there’s nothing to get to the end of. That is why it is called irrational. At a point one has to put on the brakes, take a look at it and say, “fuckit, that’s close enough.”

            115. As I said again yesterday, I have no interest in “arguing” with you or even communicating with you. And it’s not just because of your materialistic and cynical views, which I consider as doing nothing but lowering the spirits of others when you spout them – the main reason is that you are a FAKE.

              You put up the pretense of having to invalidate everything I say in order to “protect” people from Scientology, but your recent posts show clearly that you don’t limit it to that at all. It doesn’t matter what I say – on any subject – you will invalidate it, as with the comment above, because that’s the game you’re into.

              In another post you wrote, “Funny that you’ve squirrelled Scientology away from anything recognizable all the while quoting it perfectly.”

              First you mock it up that I’m a “true believer” and then with that Straw Man in place you have an excuse to criticize anything else I say that ISN’T being a true believer and call it “squirrel” and “hypocritical.” .

              I’m actually more free with regard to Scientology than you are by far. YOU are still a prisoner on the subject, albeit in the reverse. Specious and insidious rhetoric based on an agenda is all you got.

              I am free enough with it that I can use it or use improvements on it – something I have stated numerous times yet you have the gall to pretend you don’t know so you can carry on with your Straw Man. In recent months I have had both standard LRH auditing as well as some NOTs type auditing from David St. Lawrence, who bases what he does on LRH tech but goes beyond it – while granting full credit to the tech for giving all of us an unparalleled basis to continue forward with.

              I see you as a little piece of shit – no real power of your own but you do stink up the place and make it unpleasant to be here.

            116. “I see you as a little piece of shit – no real power of your own but you do stink up the place and make it unpleasant to be here.”

              And you do not audit, so what was your point?

            117. E. he says this like this on purpose, knowing he’s lying. It has happened several times on this thread alone. That’s the way he tries to keep the shit stirred up.

            118. M… I know, and when I asked him why he lies openly about me he said ” haven’t you got over it yet?” What one can say to some one who do not understand the meaning of what is ”lie”. how lies destroys confidence and trust not the persons he is wanting to blacken, destroy by undermining their good name their reputation but his own.

            119. Yes, I remember one time he knowingly twisted what you said about Buddha, and when I called him on it he got all mealy-mouthed and managed to slither out of it like a snake or a weasel.

            120. “Yes, I remember one time he knowingly twisted what you said about Buddha, and when I called him on it he got all mealy-mouthed and managed to slither out of it like a snake or a weasel.”

              You mean when I said Elizabeth told me how LRH lied when he said he was Buddha and she knew that because she was really Buddha? You mean that time? And the time when I wrote that Elizabeth said LRH was a master thief on the whole track and stole the materials having to do with how to do implants? That time? Which time that I lied and then slithered away are you talking about?

            121. No, it was the exchange below. My caps show how you slyly altered your original statement:

              ——————————

              Chris: ““Yes she does, and she also says that Ron was the greatest whole track implanter of them all and NOT THE INVENTOR OF THIS TECHNOLOGY but the burglar of it from herself — the only one ever to confront and as-is the entire whole track.”

              Just to set the record straight, Elizabeth did NOT say LRH was the burglar of this technology. In fact, she has given him credit for the tech over and over, dozens of times. And she did NOT say he was the burglar of it from “herself” – she specifically stated numerous times as well, that the Buddha had only lead people astray.

              posted 2013-10-21 at 20:23 by marildi in reply to Chris Thompson
              ——————————

              Chris: “Discuss it with her. She will tell you. Ron was A THIEF WHO STOLE THE TECH OF IMPLANTING and was a brilliant implanter. Also, she was Siddhartha Gautama – the Buddha….”

              You just completely changed what you had said – which you knew wasn’t true.

              posted 2013-10-22 at 04:48 by marildi in reply to Chris Thompson
              ——————————-

            122. Elizabeth has told me many things. That she was the Buddha, Atilla the Hun, that LRH stole the advanced course materials, implant materials, but that was because he was a master implanter on the whole track and he brought this stolen knowledge to earth. LRH is not the inventer of this material as it was in widespread use in the old days but he was a master implanter and that is the reason that he was able to know about and unravel implants here on earth where he does not use it to help people but in the reverse way to implant people while telling us he is helping he is really enslaving. Elizabeth routinely gets mad at me and then cools off, this is why I’m careful what I write to her as I don’t want to get her over-restimulated. I suppose this little paragraph puts me in trouble again but with Marildi and Elizabeth name calling me a liar and filthy names and all I suppose I am being baited to put aside my better discretion and just let it all hang out. I know I rant a bit about my poor experience on staff what with my family being ripped apart, apparently for no good reason. As this continues for real into present time, I’d think you can give me a pass on that one. As to the workability of the tech of Scientology, I think it conditions a person toward good soldiering, always defending even when there is nothing to be gained and then attacking and taking issue with every nitpicking comment anyone makes. Maybe a person needs to immerse themself in cult-think to get a very good reality on it. I did and I feel that I do. Reading my posts here on Isene.me could give one the idea that this is on my mind all the time but I assure you it is not. Right now I am blogging about my experiences. When I get up and go away from blogging I do other things like work, fixing up my house and family activities and when I’m doing that, I am sure not doing this. Maybe those here reading my comments can affirm, “oh yeah, that Chris is sure a big exaggerator and a liar.” If that’s the way it comes across I guess I’ll apologize and live with it. Regardless, I’ve enjoyed blogging with my friends and foes on Geir’s and being allowed to have a place to write and discuss has been of major importance to me personally. Being able to get things out of my head and write them and look at them has been therapeutic for me. Thank you all!

            123. “Being able to get things out of my head and write them and look at them has been therapeutic for me.”

              Oh Chris, I was just starting to tear reading so many negative comments and then you writing this brought them to my eyes.
              I haven’t been commenting here for awhile but do read most at some point. Today, this thread shows some shame and proof that the tech does not work over-all.
              I believe kindness, courtesy, understanding, allowing, a sense of humor are in-born or family, country environ and how we were educated, before Scientology. Scientology certainly has changed many people, those who improved could have done it with other modalities too, imo.

              When some people get so stuck, defend, attack, it is sad, really. They just prove the powers of communication, love and understanding, ability to discus, create, joke, and have fun are not available to them no matter how audited. Even those in the cherch cannot do it honestly with outsiders. Those that have freed themselves from the suppressive and egoist think are, at least on the true way to happiness in life.

              Chris, I love your telling of experiences and your wit, also your ability to counter attacks. You are very bright man! Elizabeth when she is creative, spiritual and witty. The seriousness and nasties seem to get way out of line. Racingingtheblood is spot on in an earlier post and I applaud him. Geirs pretty good too and keeps it simple, heh!

              So I will continue on reading the notifications, but just felt I had to say something since I’ve been reading now for hours and became sad with the accumulation of such negativity.

              Writing is therapeutic for me too. I’ve been gradually losing the fear of speaking up and out. Life is just too darn short.

              This is where I am at, now! Who knows the morrow? 🙂

              Respect and love for each of you. Who said life was easy, eh?

            124. Dee. I will not defend my self since that what Chris wants. I never seen so much twisted what ever he writes, those were born out of his very sick twisted beliefs. He is simply getting back at me because he was post to come and visit and I have dropped that idea without explanation and I have withdrawn my friendship also without explanation. His ego is having a temper tantrum.. 🙂 sooo he is out to destroy…

            125. His ego is having a temper tantrum.. 🙂 sooo he is out to destroy… My secret is revealed. You have nailed me using Scientology. I’m must give up or face annihilation!

            126. Writing is therapeutic for me too. I’ve been gradually losing the fear of speaking up and out. Life is just too darn short. Any fear lost is twice the courage gained. I applaud your efforts and enjoy reading your posts. I’m happy for you and your recent wins. I love Geir Isene and his blog and the opportunities for growth it provides me, and free! That is a very good price! 🙂

            127. “Life is just too darn short.”

              Must say Chris I sure got a lotta laughs from reading today from you.
              Gier;s blog to me has been very, very helpful too.
              To me on this Op imo, he is at a level of a excellent teacher, one who allows others to improve or hang themselves. (Gosh where did that come form?) Sorry, I must be chanelling, heh! (not really hang of course).

            128. “I believe kindness, courtesy, understanding, allowing, a sense of humor are in-born or family, country environ and how we were educated, before Scientology. Scientology certainly has changed many people, those who improved could have done it with other modalities too, imo.”

              +1

            129. I should include your reply to my last comment above, which is an example of one of the many times you have thrown in an remark about me in an attempt to invalidate, when it didn’t even have anything to do with the topic we were on – just like you continue to do to this day:

              “What is not true? The part where I claim that you are a shameless promoter of the religion of Scientology and of L. Ron Hubbard and do not practice Scientology but only blog about it…”

              posted 2013-10-22 at 16:05 by Chris Thompson in reply to marildi

              https://isene.me/2013/09/01/1984/#comment-46932

            130. Did I invalidate or just attempt to invalidate!?! I don’t really have an issue with your post, I am wondering if you do not see yourself as a shameless promoter of all things LRH and Scientology and I wonder what frightens you away from picking up the cans? If we are to be fair and dredge up the past you should acknowledge that I’ve sincerely encouraged you to walk the path of Scientology because that seems your predilection. My opinion is that is the only way you will be satisfied about grabbing at the golden ring. I’m never snide during these exchanges of encouraging you to do Scientology. It was for me the path to walk and I walked it and I’m satisfied that I completed my Scientology journey. I don’t encourage new people to do Scientology because after much blogging elsewhere, I find plenty of smart people in possession of what I previously considered esoteric knowledge of Scientology. But there are many many smart happy stable people in the world and they didn’t become that through the exercise of Scientology. For me, I’ve become a happy and stable person and family man through the exorcism of my brainwashed Scientology mind. If I mixed a few metaphors there, well again, sorry. As for “slithering,” I don’t think that is an accurate adjective for me at all. I am making a stab at describing where I am at.

            131. “M… I know, and when I asked him why he lies openly about me he said ” haven’t you got over it yet?”

              Pfffft! You still crying about how I challenged your well done auditing hours? Tell the truth now, you cannot have done 100,000 hours of solo auditing, could you? How? Millions of cognitions, incidents, seeing atoms? (Oh, no wait, that was lie, you never said you “see atoms!” . . . glad of that.)

            132. “E. he says this like this on purpose, knowing he’s lying. It has happened several times on this thread alone. That’s the way he tries to keep the shit stirred up.”

              You’re right, I missed that. Which auditing did you receive?

            133. “I meant he says “He says THINGS like this on purpose…”

              Everything I say and write is on purpose. Each time I communicate I am intending to create an effect and hopefully it is somewhere near where I meant it to be. And anyway, it’s good for the comment count. Now which auditing is that you are getting? I hope your rudiments are going in with respect to me – must be. I am feeling better already.

            134. If I wanted to remain in the dirt I would not have audited those 120000 hours one life time spent. Since you do not believe in auditing never had any therefore to you any amount is unreal. So I will not debate with you since that would mean the same:. rolling in dirt. You are the poor product what Vinnie is offering to attain by his method. you are the shadow of his valance. A minion. I will never answer any of your comment regardless what you write. You are a liar.

            135. “Since you do not believe in auditing never had any therefore to you any amount is unreal.”

              E., My comment was not about the effectiveness of auditing, it was directed at you in particular about your claim to have audited, as you write, 120,000 hours from 1976 and lets say to the present which is approximately 13,780 days. This is 8.65 hours per day, 7 days per week, for 38 years. Don’t you think it is unkind of you to call me a liar when you tell this tall of a tale?

              Marildi? You’re turn.

            136. “so what was your point?”

              Looks to me that she is trying to get rid of you, eh?

            137. Looks to me that she is trying to get rid of you, eh? Hehe, maybe! But she and I have a good thing going what with the thread comment count and all, what will she do without me?

            138. ev·i·dence
              ˈevədəns/Submit
              noun
              1.
              the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
              “the study finds little evidence of overt discrimination”
              synonyms: proof, confirmation, verification, substantiation, corroboration, affirmation, attestation More

              When the same story, such as that of a worldwide flood, occurs around the globe in cultures that have no relationship or communication with each other, that is ‘evidence’ that something happened and is worth investigating.
              What your personal threshold for ‘convincing evidence’ is, is another matter. That’s why academics are always arguing, as are juries in courts sometimes arguing. Neither one comes in the end to any kind of ‘truth’, except by agreement

            139. Yes. One or more Sun Gods. There is also a preponderance of evidence for past activity of powerful beings of various kinds on this planet, or there is a preponderance of evidence that humans are in some way ‘wired’, possibly ‘hard-wired’ to invent similar stories or myths about the past and the origins of things.

              However there is no ‘hard evidence’ of this; indeed, is ‘hard evidence ‘ of this ‘hard-wiring’ even conceivable or obtainable? There is no ‘proof'(evidence) of this at all; there is at least some inferential proof of the Bible and other old ‘mythic’ records containing some actual historical data.

              As for ‘Sun gods’, who knows who or what they might have actually been. Some speculate they were astronauts from elsewhere, some that they were actual ‘gods’ or spiritual beings with powers; some, that they were members of a technologically advanced earlier civilization.

              No one really knows. All we can do is gather ‘evidence’ and create theories. In other words, speculate.

            140. “No one really knows. All we can do is gather ‘evidence’ and create theories. In other words, speculate.”

              With respect, gathering evidence of things that really are is the practice which has moved man out of the stone age. It is the exercises of science, beyond speculation, which have allowed man to effectively understand what little he knows. Religion does not contribute to this motion and theism has hindered man from its inception.

            141. Oh boy, here we go again. This is straw man, Chris! Who the Hell said anything about ‘religion’? Geir and I use the word ‘evidence’ and you’re off on a rant about ‘religion’! Gimme a break.

              “With respect, gathering evidence of things that really are is the practice which has moved man out of the stone age. It is the exercises of science, beyond speculation, which have allowed man to effectively understand what little he knows. ”

              We are talking about “myths”. Myths ‘really are’ but WHAT are they? That’s what I’m discussing. AR they totally made up fantasies? Are they partly or wholly actually historical accounts, perhaps seen through a glass darkly? Are they literally true, or a mixture of fact and fancy?

              With all due respect, we are not attempting to gather evidence for things that really ARE, we are gathering evidence about things that WERE, or even ‘might have been’. That too is part of, or can be approached, ‘scientifically’.
              It’s what those kooky paleontologists, archeologists, geologists, even biologists and students of evolution do.

              They find traces and make up fantastic stories about dinosaurs and such! It’s virtually 100% ‘speculation ‘ on their part. Someone finds a piece of rock that looks like it may have been half a jawbone 1,000,000 years ago, and they build a whole story including the creature’s lifestyle and mating habits from that piece of ‘evidence’!
              Talk about ‘speculation’ on slim evidence!

              But that is how ‘science’ progresses – by ‘speculating'(making up theories) about whatever evidence is in evidence. As more evidence comes in, the theories(speculations) usually get revised to accommodate the new evidence with the old.

              Anyway I agree with you about ‘practical science’, how things work and all that. Mostly that’s “technology”. One
              does not need to ‘know about’ bosons to wire a house and install backup generators or cook food, etc.

              I did not bring religion into this, nor did Geir, nor did Graham Hancock for that matter. His book, title notwithstanding, has absolutely no discussion of religion nor religious ideas at all. It is a collection of ‘evidence’ which he theorizes as pointing to certain events in the past.

            142. Is this the ‘conspiracy theory’ subthread? For some reason I am having trouble locating the correct places for answering specific posts….
              Anyway, this is in response to Geir’s apparent reply to my post ending with “when Industry and Government meet behind closed doors, that’s a ‘conspiracy’ in my book.”

              Whereupon Geir apparently equated the word ‘conspiracy’ with the iconic term ‘conspiracy theory’, and posted a 100% straw man response to my post.

              I have noticed this kind of thing before, on this blog and in other conversations – say the word ‘conspiracy’, and it immediately gets equated with ‘conspiracy theory’. Many people totally freak at the word and rush to dismiss someone using it as a nut job.
              However.
              Maybe I am old-fashioned, but I use the word in its very basic dictionary sense, and when I refer to a ‘conspiracy’ I am referring to entirely observable things, involving activities behind closed doors that others are not privy to. Essentially, activities that are usually purposed to give some an advantage over others. Why this should immediately key-in ‘conspiracy theory’ in the minds of some, I don’t know and don’t care.

              Anyone who observes American and European politics
              has to be aware of the abundance of this kind of activity, which leads to the growth of banking, industrial cartels and their corruption of governments.

              There is no issue of “someone is in control” vs. “no-one is in control”, which is the generalization Geir jumped to in his reply. Those are straw men based on a misperception of my use of the word.

              Here is some Wikipedia text on this word:

              1. Conspiracy (civil), an agreement between persons to deceive, mislead, or defraud others of their legal rights, or to gain an unfair advantage
              2. Conspiracy (crime), an agreement between persons to break the law in the future, in some cases having committed an act to further that agreement
              3. Conspiracy (political), the overthrow of a government

              Here is Wikipedia’s basic definition of Conspiracy Theory:

              A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation.

              It really isn’t so different, is it? And governments, together with business and industry, are rife with this kind of activity.

              Yet I find “conspiracy theory” is often used as a dismissive derogatory term. That is how it is often used in popular usage.

              So, what’s everybody afraid of?

              As for “someone vs. no-one” in charge, that’s a straw man and a red herring as far as what I posted.

              On a planet of 7,000,000,000 it seems to me to be foolish to even think in those terms. Assuming social realities are co-created, that’s a lot of co-creation going on, and to expect anyone to be “in charge” of all that is , well, ridiculous.

              But that does not mean that no-one seeks to organize things towards their own interest as much as possible. That’s why there are lobbyists to government. That’s why folks say, “Money talks”. And it talks behind closed doors. Maybe not in Norway, but certainly in the United States, England, and the major capitals of Europe. And in most of the rest of the world, from what I hear and read.

              To attempt to divert my point away from this, seems unworthy of intelligent people.

            143. “Maybe I am old-fashioned, but I use the word in its very basic dictionary sense, and when I refer to a ‘conspiracy’ I am referring to entirely observable things, involving activities behind closed doors that others are not privy to.”

              Val, I don’t think the various powers that be are necessarily “observable” because besides the cabals in government, business and industry, there is also the media – which determines what information is given to the public.

              The reason I sometimes use the term “conspiracy theories” instead of just “conspiracies” is because many people consider that the conspiracies that are written and spoken about by the “fringe minority” are just “theories.”

            144. Anyway I’m going to stop using the word and use synonyms instead although the word describes perfectly what’s been going on in American politics.

            145. Probably a good idea – the negative connotations are definitely there.

              But you are right that “conspiracy” is the correct word – so you could also handle the situation just as you did, by giving the definition right at the get-go – or maybe even by modifying “conspiracy” with “actual” or “real” or something.

            146. On the other side of this, is that there are NO contemporary or recent sightings of a “sun god” anywhere on earth. This argues that he/they no longer exist, have gone away or ? maybe never existed?

              However, we are speaking here of whether “myths” contain any record of actual PAST events, or are they wholly made-up fantasies with no historical truth to them?

              I feel anyone reading or posting here ought to see the difference. Am I overestimating people?

            147. “I feel anyone reading or posting here ought to see the difference. Am I overestimating people?”

              Maybe! It seems that one man’s myth is another man’s fact. The difference is between a belief and a fact. That is the fulcrum – the difference between a belief and a fact. When a person zeros in on this, then the rub becomes the quality of information.

            148. NoArgumentHere.(NAH). You have stated it succinctly.

              “One man’s meat is another man’s poi, son.” (Can you tell I’m fond of that Feghoot?”)

              (A “Feghoot” is a type of joke involving a kind of pun.)
              Definition:
              An anecdote or short story that concludes with an elaborate pun.

            149. So to compare today’s “koolaide drinkers” with yesterday’s, what percentage of any population actually believes that stuff.? I think they are just passive. History has taught them to be passive.

              In the USA, only 12% to 15% turn out to vote in elections. Why do you suppose? I think it is apathy. And I think this apathy suits the people in industry and government just fine, and they encourage it through the media.

              This is not a new problem. Mark Twain is reported to have once said, “If our votes mattered, they wouldn’t let us vote.” Cynical? Or realistic?

              In my book, when Industry and Government meet behind closed doors, that’s “conspiracy”.

            150. You may think that “someone” is in control of world affairs. I think it’s far worse – I think that No One is in control.

            151. +1. The world is too enormous for anyone to truly hold the reins. And our world is barely a dust mote within our own solar system not to mention the galaxy. We love our illusions of control.

            152. “You may think that “someone” is in control of world affairs. I think it’s far worse – I think that No One is in control.

              Hahahahaha! 🙂

            153. Read what I wrote. If “humans” do not agree on it, or disagree about “it”, then “it” has indeed never been resolved by “humans”. That is the simplest of logics. Is it my fault you read what I write but don’t get it? 🙂

            154. “If “humans” do not agree on it, or disagree about “it”, then “it” has indeed never been resolved by “humans”. That is the simplest of logics.”

              If a “problem” won’t resolve then we need a new angle. Personally, I do not find myself trying to be good. I just don’t worry about it, not since dumping religion. Yes after that I got into another religion, Scientology and that crammed being good down my throat but since resolving Scientology that is no longer an issue again. I’m thinking that trying to be good is a false or possibly misstated problem. I don’t see you as a guy who tries to be good but are you? and if so, how so?

            155. Yes, a new angle. I haven’t seen one in awhile, so I’m working on coming up with my own as far as the substance and meaning of LRH’s life. I can understand how you might think he was the ultimate evil dickhead but I think he fits quite well into the human milieu. In a funny kind of way, it’s as though you were made for each other. I’m glad you woke up from that aspect of it all.

            156. As Yoda once said, “Be or don’t Be. There is no Try.”

              There is nothing wrong with you. But Needleman does present some angles I didn’t think of. Why do we have to ‘try’? Why can’t we just be ‘good’? And he does reveal scenarios which could be problematic for anyone, even for Solomon.

            157. “Why do we have to ‘try’? Why can’t we just be ‘good’?”

              The reason I don’t worry about this is that every mo-fo who tried to make me be good wanted me under control for not a good reason. Growing up with lots of control at school and at home is just practice for the way, the methods and pressure and ideologies which are pushed at us by those who want us under control. I don’t have to resist impulses to destroy or harm such as robbery, burglary or murder at all. For me maybe this is only my own predilection and then maybe for others their predilection is to harm and destroy, then in between there must be a mix. My cat on the other hand is a very bad cat. She can’t help it, she was born that way. I’m just theetie weetie for my cat.

            158. I don’t disagree. It’s a major control mechanism used in countless ways in our societies. Convince someone he needs some kind of ‘treatment’ then charge him for it somehow. Ken Wilbur also mentions this, how societies generally try to stick a person at a certain level of development and stop him from evolving up into the transpersonal levels. It has to do with those who have an interest in maintaining a status quo. “They” don’t want you to be ‘too bright’, but they don’t want you to be so stupid you are unable to pay your taxes.

              It’s all about engineering just the right amount of invalidation, and controlling even those on whom the “educational and behavior modification system” doesn’t work.

            159. I am wrestling with this with my kids in school. Get them to conform enough to get acceptably through their “education” without becoming conditioned robots. An uncomfortable balancing act.

            160. “Other people say, well if he was a not a perfect human, then his discoveries are bunk. Isaac Newton as a teen threatened to murder his mother and stepfather. Does that mean that apples may not fall?”

              No one is saying that about LRH. What newly minted Scientology atheists are saying is that ” . . .if Hubbard’s ‘discoveries’ are bunk and he still charged for them, he must be a discreditable human.”

            161. “Other people say, well if he was a not a perfect human, then his discoveries are bunk. Isaac Newton as a teen threatened to murder his mother and stepfather. Does that mean that apples may not fall?”

              The red herring of your Newton reference is that Newton is not known for research and success with “good manners.” Plus his work on gravity is open to falsification. Hubbard’s work on the human mind within the relevance of Scientology is not open to any scrutiny at all.

            162. Let’s look at the reality of Isaac Newton. From a biography site:
              “”When he was 3 years old, his mother, Hannah Ayscough Newton, remarried a well-to-do minister, Barnabas Smith, and went to live with him, leaving young Newton with his maternal grandmother. The experience left an indelible imprint on Newton, later manifesting itself as an acute sense of insecurity. He anxiously obsessed over his published work, defending its merits with irrational behavior.”

              “But because of Hooke’s association with the Royal Society and his own work in optics, his criticism stung Newton the worst. Unable to handle the critique, he went into a rage—a reaction to criticism that was to continue throughout his life.”

              http://www.biography.com/people/isaac-newton-9422656#professional-life&awesm=~oERpghRGS9cjx0

              Maybe LRH was Newton in an earlier life?

            163. hehe, well good post – I’m not a student of the man Newton but was only commenting on Marildi’s rationale about Newton and gravity. I am not critical of LRH for being a dick, I am critical of his insubstantial character which is going to be the cause of any good Scientology concepts to be discarded from association with him. If he wanted to improve man, there were many good ways to go about that. His ego and desire for money and power overwhelmed any good intention if indeed there was one.

            164. “Maybe LRH was Newton in an earlier life?”

              hehe you are reaching! I don’t believe this. The father of Calculus able to remember back to universes ago but unable to do math? uh, no. lol.

            165. Do you expect a person to remember every detail? This is real, she is not the only person like this:

              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-564948/The-woman-forget-ANYTHING-Widow-ability–curse–perfectly-remember-single-day-life.html

              LRH never claimed that he could remember EVERYTHING. He did postulate it as a goal of Dianetic processing; and even then, he did not claim one would recall every moment of his past, but that he would have the restored ability to remember things, an ‘eidetic memory’. It is possible some people achieved this, as it appears to be a natural ability or potential of a human being. There are lots of training systems etc for developing this, online.
              There are a lot of straw men thrown around, when it
              comes to what LRH ‘promised’ and what he did not.

            166. “There are a lot of straw men thrown around, when it comes to what LRH ‘promised’ and what he did not.”

              Well then let’s not talk about the straw men and focus on his promises as he wrote them. There are enough without making any up.

            167. Well, I agree, but when marildi posts LRH references, she gets criticized by some here for doing so……

              This seems like a Catch 22. Personally, I feel that if you claim LRH promised something, you need to post references, not rely on things you picked up from being in the “scientology culture”. Those kind of things are at best “verbal tech”, at worst someone’s purely “idiosyncratic” interpretation. Even Geir has pointed out that no matter what you cherry pick out of LRH’s words, someone will find another quote that contradicts the one you found….

              I have a personal solution, but it’s too time consuming for most people to indulge in. Including me!

            168. Valkov …personally I love what Marildi is doing. she is very very good at that..pulling up references. I do admire her ability simply because I too would love to be able to do that kind of work. She has what I am missing..

            169. Thanks, Eliz. And you certainly have a lot of abilities that I don’t! Makes for good teammates. 🙂

            170. “I do admire her ability simply because I too would love to be able to do that kind of work. She has what I am missing..”

              Sitting in a Qual library?

            171. Since you never had auditing: absolutely nothing on any level therefore you have no understanding what is auditing about, that make it beyond your comprehension-understanding different realities. Stay with your abilities which you do so well. make up lies about those who made a mistake and trusted you.

            172. Dee, I know Marildi for a very long time and please believe me she capable to do more than that.. But I seldom see any one doing what she do. She is fair, seldom negative and she only is when pushed hard. . She has immense knowledge which is not apparent here while she is posting. that kind of knowledge is not required here to be put on the platter.

            173. “Dee, I know Marildi for a very long time and please believe me she capable to do more than that..”
              That’s well that you know her, as different from her portrayal on this blog to those that don’t know her personally. Fair and Seldom negative only when pushed hard? BS, She comes across as most argumentative and badgering here, as opposed to other blogs, since I’ve been here. I only know her by the attitude and words displayed. Nothing personal, as she may be a lovely lady in private, who loves the stimulation and creating effects. She does knows proper words, etc, like no other. More like enjoying, seriously, to bull-bait, eh? Wonder if the founder ever intended it to be used on blogs?

            174. Dee.. that is your reality.. and I wont even attempt to change that since yours could not change mine about her. So we allow beigness. or not?

            175. “So we allow beigness. or not?”

              Absolutely, allow beingness! And I can let that go… also your comment about Chris in previous comment to me. Isn’t this easy?

            176. :)… very nice! that is the reason I will not defend my self against those lies Chris puts out.. I am allowing him his lies, his upset for me dropping him. I did that because I have found out that he was telling tall tales behind my back, in order to look important by having inside information from the person who was solo auditing.
              Tall tales, telling them they do backfire every time.. Tall tales, only make one look important till it is found out that were lies.. after that downhill all the way for that person..Have fun my dear!. Must be late there!

            177. Dee: “Fair and Seldom negative only when pushed hard? BS, She comes across as most argumentative and badgering here, as opposed to other blogs, since I’ve been here.”

              Have you ever seen anyone on ANY other blog STALKED the way Chris stalks me? I’ve never seen anything even close to it. Why do you suppose he doesn’t do the same thing to me on Marty’s blog, if his true purpose is as he says – to save people from Scientology? He knows I post there with my usual pro LRH and pro-Scn comments, yet he doesn’t speak up even though he does post there sometimes. Strange, don’t you think?

              I’d say it’s because he knows that people would notice the outpoint pretty quickly and call him on it, But here, he can get away with it. There’s a little riddle for you.

              Thanks for reminding me of this one additional aspect of the situation and giving me the opportunity to shine some light on it. Appreciated. 😀

            178. I don’t like blogging at Marty’s because my SP`ishness is too noticeable. Plus Marty’s recovery from scientology is lagging about a year behind my own and the progress we’ve made over here, so no need. Anyway, as you say, those Scientologists would be too quick to put me in my place and that scares me.

            179. Wonder if the founder ever intended it to be used on blogs? Are you kidding deE? LRH Invented blogs. I’m surprised you do not know that! You may not have enough auditor training! 🙂

            180. “Well, I agree, but when marildi posts LRH references, she gets criticized by some here for doing so……”

              1. Because she preaches Scientology for others but not for herself. 2. She avoids being the effect of the comm cycles that she has here with the few exceptions of those which confirm her bias.

            181. Chris.. Marildi would not post those quotations from the LRH if she would not believe in them. If she would not believe in them than she would post hate notes, negative shit about scientology as others and as you do.. We all post what we believe but some people do post lies. made up crap too.. with that they add weight to their own importance..

            182. I think it is not “old news” when there are still many out there who have not heard/seen it.
              More basically, I think reality is agreement, and as LRH said, “times over the material is what creates certainty”.

              It can’t hurt for Chris to experience some additional validation, don’t you think?

              I also think it is noteworthy in itself that someone like Mike makes a post like that on such a blog.

              Add to that, each time that data is posted, new comments and reflections are developed.

              You, on the other hand, were already being billed as the
              “rebel OT VIII” when you published some of that. Now that there are so many other “rebels” I guess you are feeling neglected?

            183. I don’t think it’s odd at all, when it concerns folks who were as invested in orthodox scientology as much as Marty and Mike were. I think it is noteworthy so I noted it. It also seemed germane to the thread and Chris’ posts on it, as well as some of the replies.

        1. Frankly, it still sounds like a “one-upmanship” comment slighting those who are “johnny-come lately” to the not-so-flattering data about LRH.

          Kinda like the old guard who want the new immigrants to know their place.

          But that probably is wildly imaginative on my part. that’s the thing about posting on the Internetz – it’s like a Rorschach test.

          But have it your way. Hail Geir, who was a trailblazer ahead of the curve. After all, you really were one of the first to go public in a big way, and gave a forum to many others whose voices may have otherwise been lost, including mine. I was just surprised you apparently felt the need to remind others of it. I guess you are human after all! 🙂

            1. G: “I think it’s odd that people evaluate data like this depending on who the messenger is.”

              Gee, I guess there really such a thing for some people, as “opinion leaders”, eh? Surprise surprise.

              Perhaps some day the North Koreans will wake up en masse?

              But really, sarcasm aside, there are no “done deals” in life. You might be tired or ‘overrun’ on the subject, but that doesn’t mean everyone else is. It’s an evolving scene. You can’t step into the same river twice. It is always changing. I get bored of it at times, then I get interested in it again, partly because it is always changing. Sheherezade describes life. “Time states the untruth of consecutive considerations.” If nothing ever changed, THAT would be real boredom or worse.

            2. I agree, Val. I would say that the subject of Scientology remains of interest because it involves universal questions and principles. It could be useful simply as a basis of discussion because of the fact that we former Scn’ists are familiar with the “language”. Instead of talking about all the ills of the subject and of LRH, which has become so boring and isn’t even relevant, we should stick to the basic principles as a jump-off point of discussion, and maybe get somewhere.

            3. Or start Asking some fundamental questions and disregard whether Scientology ought to answer them and defend the possibility that it does. Just be openly curious about existence without the use of Scientology in the slightest as a filter. Now That would be progress. Methinks.

            4. Likewise, why not be open to the idea that Scientology does answer questions and not be set on refuting the possibility. It works both ways.

              As I say, it’s simply a common language.

            5. “Likewise, why not be open to the idea that Scientology does answer questions and not be set on refuting the possibility. It works both ways. As I say, it’s simply a common language.”

              Scientology poses a world view, its very own. Then Scientology answers questions posed by itself within its own world view. It doesn’t work outside its own purview, it doesn’t work both ways. It defines its own esoteric language for use within its own world view and snickers at the WOGs outside its own parameters. It is not a common language outside its own metes and bounds. The most basic goal of Scientology is not to improve the game of life but rather to eliminate that larger world which exists outside its own boundaries. I do not think this is a good idea and would not want this to happen.

            6. “Instead of talking about all the ills of the subject and of LRH, which has become so boring and isn’t even relevant, we should stick to the basic principles as a jump-off point of discussion, and maybe get somewhere.”

              Like where do suppose the discussion will lead? Is there something untouched on the subject of Scientology? Something we have not thoroughly ground to quanta?

            7. “I would say that the subject of Scientology remains of interest because it involves universal questions and principles.”

              I think Scientology remains of interest to those of us who invested everything we had and everything we were into trust with Scientology. Aside from those of us who did this, I don’t think Scientology is talked about much at all and rightly so.

  16. Geir. Here’s where I’m at. “Incredulous”. Watching the whole mechanism of interest vs. disinterest aka. “reach vs. withdraw. and what does happen, when another becomes just soooooo
    consumed with their own viewpoint, and/or self-importance, that they shut down on conscious ‘awareness’ of the other. So, for the sake of a label…may we call this “blogcommaberration” ?

    Watching this apparently (unconsciously) obsessive/compulsive just ‘have to’ have the ‘last word’ / be right / prove, or assert the other wrong…..It has absolutely no connection with simple, conscious two-way communication, between ‘sane’ beings, each fully aware that they are in the presence of another being, equally deserving to be heard ( hopefully understood too) and properly ACKNOWLEDGED, for that comm delivery.

    …… this is ‘nut-house’ jabberwocky, man!! Incessant, back n’ forth, between two or more participants, ostensibly unaware that they are actually ‘out of present time’, and barely aware how far they stray from their starting point.(It has been called ‘aberration’ for good reason.) Spewing a jumble of emotionally loaded fixations at one another….. like a collection of battery powered pre-programmed toy cars let loose on the floor of a toy store!

    The fascinating point to all this, is hardly anyone ever seems to arrive anyplace intended? Does going round and round in circles
    mean anything, or have any real objective?

    Or is this just about yap, yap, woof, woof, aroooo., bark, bark, dig, dig sniff sniff , over some bone that you threw into the frey, some time in the past? And that mebbe triggers a memory of a still EARLIER bone, still (unconsciously) being hunted down?

    Does this only happen when you throw a bunch of Anti-Scns in with a group of Scns. (of varying adherence) ??

    WTF happened to the UNDERSTANDING of the simplicity of proper 2-way communication, between two supposedly ‘able’, ‘aware’, and ‘self-controlled beings’, each fully aware that ‘other’ , is deserving of ‘attention’ and opportunity to be ‘duplicated’ as well. Can this just be referenced as ‘vital’ know how, for ‘sanity’s sake?? (God forbid I credit this to scientology!!)

    The Ol’ man’s Dianetics ’55 covers the mechanics of the above, in great detail, while Mark Shreffler has made extensive use of all the key aspects, in his hilarious lectures.

    Man, none of us is perfect, for sure, but it’s pretty certain we could all do with regular brushing up on our awareness of salient communication skills. ….

    (all for the cause of a hefty and overdue rant, so my apologies)

    Any comments on ‘blogcommaberration’, Geir?

    –Calvin … (genuine, original “Comm Course” graduate ‘ 72) 🙂

    1. Calvin, I think for many people these days, Blogs and Facebook are almost all of the “social life” they have. These are their main “3rd dynamic”. Or as LRH may have said, “a world out of comm”.

      1. Sober summary, Val. Such a pity to lose such a life changing skill, to the expedience of soul destroying expedience!
        —-No wonder Geir seems so wistful to ‘let go’ (overload?!!!)
        Taking a break/time out, always a healthy idea though.

      2. Val, one element that can seriously ‘nag’ us on the inside, is when it dawns on us that we no longer have a ‘purpose’ – ie that much vaunted ‘retirement’, that often ends up as some degree of withdrawal — and with it, the ‘motion’ required by ‘survival’ diminishes too! That brutal truth can hit one in a flash realization.– “I just can’t get around and do stuff, like I used to!” (the USE it or LOSE it syndrome)

        The only realistic solution remains what it always has been.
        Rekindle some basic/favorite PURPOSE, or establish a new one.
        (over and above the expedient cyber life addiction/s- These are really just cerebral experience, at best, and do very little for physical health/fitness and active longevity.)

        Seeking to maintain balance in our physical, emotional, and spiritual existence remains key to a fulfilling life, after all. 🙂

        1. WOW Racer. you have just advised the most intelligent-smartest most balanced person around here! Oh I know he lives in Michigan but that do not count since Geirs body is in Norway mine in Canada.

          1. Whoopsy! E sitting behind her laser sights again!

            Ready,aim…..fire! There, gotcha you schwein!!

            1. Racer.. don’t blame me for getting shut in the arse.. you have asked for it and it is your ”Laser sight” judging what it has shown you, you have concluded that Valkov is just about ready for taking up knitting and do a bit of square dancing at the senior center but of course only if his arthritis is not acting up. there are different kind of boredoms.. one of them is when one has studied every kind of beliefs, dogmas, what ever and running out of what to look at next,”” but of course you will never run into that kind of boredom so you don’t have to worry””. Now that was ”gotcha you diszno!”

            2. Racy, you are right on! I gotta get a life! But I’m not ready to drop this one quite yet. So I get stuck here with these people….. “Blessed are They who go around in Big Circles, for they shall be known as Big Wheels!” Or legends in their own minds. 🙂

            3. Valkov that is toooooo funny! LOL… but being a legend that wont do for me, not even for self… noooo thank you..Being or becoming legend carries a great burden. SOLID to the core..crap.

            4. Being an idiot is better when you have your own village to be an idiot in. The others might treat you as a Big Wheel there anyway.
              What the Hell am I trying to say….?

            5. Val? Nah, this baby ISN’T rolling over anytime soon! E neither!
              Far too much nutritional stuff still pumping away thru’ the plumbing. Can’t keep a well greased, propped up wheel from turning. All it takes is the slightest breeze, and there you gooooo! So, round and round in circles, is good, especially when you hadn’t planned on really going anywheres, I suppose?

              Btw, thank god for good ol’ basic technology– “rocking chairs”?
              What motion possible without ’em, eh? 🙂

            6. Racer.. here is angel speaking, a nut who just fallen off the tree and landed top of her head! [Hungarian expression indicating that the person is not quiet there… wherever the ”there” should be by normal people.]
              The words you use that swap spat. or spit? those words are just exchanged what you have used before when you were communicating the so called”’ normal way”’ but these words which now you express where you are at and in it [ valance of a 5- 6 year old] still have meanings and they come through loud and clear. You still put down, you still evaluate but those seemingly innocent word carry the ”punch” of your evaluation.. putting down labeling.. … that is Ok by me… what ever rings your bell, ring away…
              If this is what you have gained to do in 64 years..and call this fun.. new game.. with it…above all and I picked that up too with my laser sharp insight that you believe you have reached enlightenment and to you enlightenment means: better and superior: above low lifes like me and Marildi who not worth much outside of being targets to your spat spit. whoopsy’s by the way spat has 2 more meaning..
              have fun… but leave me out of it..

    2. Just to interrupt my reading of this thread and… ‘Applause’
      to Racingtheblood39

        1. “(Bows to Dee…) Plaudits are due to YOU, :)”

          I bow back /\/\ Racer, and to all who can freely communicate. 🙂

  17. Geir, your OP video; ‘Forgiveness and the Freedom of Letting go’
    gotten 360 replies on the T/A! (till this point)… And still gettn’ movement! …. Compared to the rest, I guess it ain’t flat yet?
    (wonder how many even remember the OP?) 🙂

      1. Yep Geir, there should be LOTS to smile about. It almost certainly occurs when people can actually ‘let go’.

        Conversely, I see a fair number of people here, who cant!

        It took me all of 64 YEARS to realize that! Hell of a long time in anybody’s book eh? The button that keeps it that way (my profound epiphany, btw,) is simply ‘taking things,(ANY things), TOO seriously’. Call it a ‘mind-block’, blind-spot’, ‘engram’, ‘held-down-seven’, or anything you like, but ‘it’ behaves in a way that seems to prevent a person from realizing, (or being quite unconscious of) their behavior, though ‘it’ is perfectly obvious to others.

        The magic solution to this, is idiotically simple!!!! — DECIDE, to ‘just LET ‘IT’ GO’!! (Not TRY!) Just — let ‘it’ go…. and yes, by all means “Fuck ‘it”, if that helps. Or take a deep breath, let it out s-l-o-w-l-y, while consciously saying to oneself: “let it go”….. and naturally, regular practice, turns this into a habit.

        Believe me, Geir, after wasting 64 fucking years, of my own life, in ignorance of this basic truth, I won’t allow ANYONE, to rob me of the chance to enjoy and laugh at life till it’s end.

        Laughter is still the BEST medicine, (Marildi), but it takes AS LONG AS IT TAKES…(64years?)… to finally sink in! 🙂

        1. Well, Mr. Holier than Thou, there is a time and a place for everything. I’m sure you aren’t saying “fuck it” to those guys in your neighborhood you talked about having to defend yourself against.

          1. Uh-oh,…. this IS going to take as long as it takes, M 🙂

            And you’re probably right! I certainly have taken a few more’holes’
            (bullets) than are good for the health. I was talking earlier about life and death situations on the street! Is that really comparable to ‘life’ on this blog? In fairness, I do get that it must sometimes seem that way to you. You may be surprised to learn, that having a good sense of ready humor, is one’s first defence, against the threat of criminal aggression. Counter violence, is only necessary as a last resort.

            Thanks for letting me share this anyway.

            Good luck with your own approaches/solutions, ‘M’adam. 🙂

            1. My, my, condescending much?

              I have a sense of humor WHEN there is humor.

              And it doesn’t take a life-and-death situation to speak up and say “No” to someone who doesn’t relent in his attempts to make things unpleasant for others.

              Get some perspective – it’s not the black and white, simplistic moralizing that you would make it into so as to be superior.

            2. Tone 2.0 Marildi ? Antagonistic tennis anyone? Chris?
              swat! …blat!…swat!…blat!… swat! ….(yawn, time to take a nap now. nighty-night all…..z-z-z-z……)

            3. 2.0 is sometimes quite appropriate. Feigned nonchalance at 1.1 rarely is.

            4. “2.0 is sometimes quite appropriate. Feigned nonchalance at 1.1 rarely is.”

              I feel the same way toward insincere flattery, polishing apples, cajoling others to confirm one’s bias.

            5. Swat! …..(crickets) …swat?…??..swat????

              LOL Enjoy the solo stuff, angel… oops! ..condescending me (again)!! I really am turning in now! thanks for the jibes 🙂

              Btw, just a little advice from Dr. Phil, for what its worth:

              “We actually teach people how to treat us.– We really do!”

            6. (secret snickering and rubbing together of palms! . . . now I’ve instigated Racer and Marildi fighting, I am one evil prick! hahaha)

            7. “now I’ve instigated Racer and Marildi fighting, I am one evil prick! hahaha)”

              Yes, and I came to watch and howl too! Such fun eh?

            8. Chris; (Secret snickering and…)

              Calvin: Yep, THE DMon meets his MATCH!! 😦

        2. “Yep Geir, there should be LOTS to smile about. It almost certainly occurs when people can actually ‘let go’.”

          Yes, F**k it! certainly helps. Like someone said ” don’t worry about the small stuff, because it’s all small stuff” 🙂

        1. If you ever decide to have a real conversation and not just be silly, flippant or patronizing, let me know.

          1. TR-3 Marildi…….LET……IT…….GO. (unfortunately, you GRRR, just GRRRRR… won’t GRRRRR-RR… allow THAT, GRR-RR..
            GRRRRRR…to..SNAPP!. .happen..SNARRRL…now will you ?)

            There. I’m really done (bushed)..’night XXX 🙂

            1. Hey, you’re the one who’s preaching that – why aren’t you practicing what you preach?

            2. “There. I’m really done (bushed)..’night XXX 🙂

              Hey Marildi, you can start on me now. Attack away, you do it so well! 🙂

            3. This may come as a surprise to you Dee, but I was responding to YOUR attacks. But don’t worry, the group think will keep others from noticing that.

            4. “Dee, but I was responding to YOUR attacks”

              Miraldi, thank you. 🙂

            5. This may come as a surprise to you Dee, but I was responding to YOUR attacks. Give up! Our group’s R6 is too mighty for your free theta!

          2. A ‘real conversation’, M? By that you mean:… swat!… blat!… swat!… blat!…. swat! … blat… swat … blat! etc, etc ??

            ….. Pardon me? ‘Conversation?’… Now THAT’S being silly, silly!
            What you imply is a ‘real conversation’, in fact turns out to be no less than a bona fide “game”, no? Check out the mechanisms, you embrace, with your ‘conversations’;(interminable) arguments, invalidations, evaluations, taunts (provocations).

            In which case, you have (unwittingly?) chosen a fitting opponent, (Chris) very willing to engage your ‘real conversation/s’ (game/s) accordingly. Aha! but alas! Here’s the kicker: A ‘game’, as you already know, has the purpose of DEFEATING, one’s opponent, keerect? It seems to ‘patonizing’ me, that one should be prepared to BE defeated, (lose) just as much as, to ‘win’??

            Look that over, will you, Marildi? The dots DO connect!

            Another element, to games, is that they CAN, be FUN! Indeed, are thoroughly enjoyable, when engaged with (knowingly), in a real ‘spirit of play’, aka ‘good sportsmanship’. The trouble is, these positives, are instantly ‘forgotten’, with some, the moment they ‘lose’..

            The SANE response, (in spite of the provocation). suggested repeatedly, to you, by Geir, myself, and a few others, is to embrace; ‘letting it go’, in order to’ move on’,

            Apparently, there’s more to these ‘real conversations’, than meets with your approval , Marildi?

            What would I know, though, other than to stay in ‘present time’?

            🙂

            1. Btw, to align with KSW, that’s TR-O. perfect for even those most provocative GRRR-RR.-R-R-EAT occasions, on this here blog, M, where you are hereby called upon, (make that SUMMONSED ok)
              to undergo a lifetime of unrelenting ‘bull-baiting’, by the ever watchful ‘spirit’ of LRH, just to ensure you don’t attempt to squeak though a ‘pass’, but rather sail through standard and uncompromising ‘tough’ drilling! . After all, only ‘tigers’ survive in ‘this jungle’, and even they have a hard time — (remember, M ?)

              Your equally ever watchful ‘shadow’, ( LOL 🙂
              –C.

            2. And Maridi, what is the whole point to these postings and jibes I’ve attempted to tease & rattle you with here? To ultimately prove to you, that you can ‘take it ‘– without ‘taking offense’.

              Hopefully, you are thus able to ‘let go’ of what may have seemed to you like being ‘picked on’. and feeling your beautiful ‘feathers’ all ruffled. and put out of place?

              You really are as tough as they come, you know? Take it from one who learned a hard lesson!… Life really tests us. Pass the
              the test with flying colors, by learning not to take yourself, others, and life too seriously !!!! Laughter still the very BEST daily medicine -( for living your life to the full! ) 🙂

            3. C… standing by for the beliefs we have do not mean ”tuff’ simply means we do believe that is true for us..and we are not willing to compromise just because some one do not like us for our believes. To me in fact say a lot.. bending with a wind and kissing up to.. changing sides in order to look good, smart, being in the inner circle… those concepts should be flushed or ”fuck it” and let go.. Lay off Marildi, when you have walked in her shoes, really know her than,maybe than you can do evaluation.
              By the way she do not need protection from me.. that is condescending of me.. yes. that is true, condescending means that other are less, weaker than us, we are better, more powerful..and full of shit…:)

        2. “LOL. you ever tried boxing M?…You’d luv it!! 🙂

          From my view reading the comments, the boxing, verbally is constant and she’s lovin’ it. Possibly some exchange is in it.

          1. Dee, aren’t you capable of making an original comment of your own – one that isn’t just going into agreement with the “in” group and politically correct?

            1. Sigh …. have you ever watched a dog chasing it’s tail, M?
              ….. I know it looks batty, since it probably is! …the thing is, undoubtedly, it IS playing “a game”, because it believes it has a chance of catching it, so persists, round and round and round, until it gets dizzy, and finally collapses exhausted. Or just quits, until the next of an unending series of ‘attempts’.

              The irony in this, of course, is that if it simply relaxed in a lying position, reached around to it’s (non- ‘escaping’) tail, it would be quite capable of securing the former ‘escapee’. in it’s jaws! Of course, we both know that’s just a ‘held-down-seven’, right, Miraldi?

              The same ‘solution’ , can apply in the case of one who never seems to ‘grasp’, the ever escaping ‘realization’. 🙂 If they could just ‘let go’, of the ‘game’ they were playing, .. (relax for a minute) then the ‘realization’ (cognition) would readily be within their grasp.( we hope.)

              But have fun, I say, if chasing one’s tail is what it takes to get one’s ‘rocks’ off, hey 🙂

            2. “Dee, aren’t you capable of making an original comment of your own – one that isn’t just going into agreement with the “in” group and politically correct?”

              Sure Marildi, just stay tuned, love!

            1. “Dee isn’t super-glued into chronic tone 2.0 ;)”

              🙂 I am at wherever I need or want to be.

            2. You get it all, with ease, Dee! After all, I get that you have paid for your passage with an ENORMOUS quantity of genuine ‘soul searching’. to have freed you up ‘this much’. Put succinctly ? I read that you are well along the road of ‘letting it go’. 🙂

            3. So true Chris!… I mean, check out that smile, man 🙂 This lady has nothing to hide (including her face). It’s so much easier to ‘speak’ to someone who is open, and unafraid to voice their inner doubts and personal battles, while allowing their ‘strength’ and compassion to shine through. Dee, we’re proud of you, ma’am!
              🙂

      1. “Freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose…”

        Freedom does seem to have to hurt, peeling off the scab stings. That’s just how it is.

  18. Those who care to read some of the Basic-Basic Cognitions I have had confronting the track please go to my blog and judge-evaluate for your self but only after reading all the 220 major cognitions I have posted in the last 3 years which are only the fraction of the realizations I have had in that 3 years.
    Black PR.. is just what is: used for destroying reputation and take away credibility and they are made up lies.

    Elizabeth Hamre’s Blog

    elizabethhamre.wordpress.com

    1. Boasting is just what it is: Inflating one’s ego in order to feel better about oneself. This is another product of Scientology which we don’t discuss as much, inflated ego.

    2. E, to me, you appear as a unique individual, with a most unusual, eclectic approach and view of life. Rich in tales, rich in imagination, and certainly rich in free style,.all your own. I have come to recognize, and appreciate you for your honesty, more than anything else!

      And I believe there’s no need to change a thing about yourself, ever. Keep growing, shining your kaleidoscope of experiences, they just simply speak to us of who you are. 🙂

      –C.

      1. C.. thank you and thank you for leaving out the splat stuff.. Interestingly you have contradicted yourself when evaluated… now that is funny. Change: I do daily.. and the free style is the product of elimination of barriers
        Honesty I don do by design.. I have no idea what that truly means because communicate from what I read into things. I do not say others are what I say they are to those who have put that energy -communication out, no, I only say what I pick up while reading-experiencing their energy flows-pictures and that is what I see, experience have reality on. Valances are used for many-many things.. in some we are stuck in we do not even know that we are in it, some others used to hide behind, not to be noticed, and others valance used because they mean we are doing well, shows that we are winning. of taking things lightly indication of fun.. don’t care attitude. There is one lady auditor who has past my age in body yet she put fort a 4 year old little girl appearance. Valances represent where the being is stuck in.. One can easily recognise those. Uniforms of every kind, dress mode say it all. use of make up The rumpled look of a professor : tweed, leather paths on the elbows of his jacket… Look at the girls who advertise selling their bodies and stand on corners. look at tugs, rap dancers, etc.. the list can be a mile long. Before I got into scientology I wanted to belong, I wanted to be accepted, I wanted to be part of the group. More auditing I had with that less I belonged and I realised why I do not belong, why I am different and always will be “outside” the group.
        C… keep it in mind there are no coincidents in this universe. There are order of things aligned for reasons, but the reasons are the barriers which need to be removed before one can step out and be free of the MEST. Best..
        I promised my self that I will not belong into any class any group because they all have barriers.

        1. Well, more from the lady, flows. Bear in mind, if you will, that first and foremost, I was born as an artist. That is to say, for me, it’s all about creating effects 🙂 Sometimes good, sometimes bad, but it’s all about passion, for life, and an intense interest in people. Nature, is my biggest inspiration.E, and I find the best way to appreciate it ( I’ll say it again )… is to be “fully in PT”
          ……There is a whole universe, in fact, in any small, modest garden. — that most people are so oblivious of, simply because they just AREN”T BEING THERE & perceiving!!

          Since my ‘Eureka’ epiphany moment, 2 years back, I feel like a life log ‘blind man’ suddenly having had his sight restored.

          You pegged me correctly, E, I am like a child (again), filled with wonder, as I look across the plethora of fascinating goings on within the games abounding all around us.

          And pray tell me E, how else may we come to appreciate all the beauty life gives in abundance, if we refuse to shake off the veils of seriousness, resentment, and low toned existence.

          ANYTHING that helps a being ‘lighten up’, whether by way of jesting, or ‘testing’, may not be a bad thing after all, hey? 🙂

          1. Now.. I do understand your universe better.. as one gardener to the another.. please take a look at one of my garden in the face book.. those pictures were taken before my divorce and me moving back here to the country which was good enough to adopt us Hungarian refugees. Now I share a large garden with my sister and her husband.. it is truly beautiful.
            I understand the creative fiery nature of those who share natures and its energies: being one with. C..”And pray tell me E, how else may we come to appreciate all the beauty life gives in abundance, if we refuse to shake off the veils of seriousness, resentment, and low toned existence.”” C… we do not know what low tone for us in fact represent something else for that person.. Could be, more likely that low tone activity is their greatest joy what can be experienced by them. Till one walks the Parth which gives total understanding.. till than the best we can do is accept that reality.. OH I don’t say we should lay down and roll over… because in some cases I wont do it… but other time no matter how I am hit I wont say a word…You see, no matter what I would say.. would not reach that person.. By the way the first time I was called childish act like a child, which was meant as on insult I have taken it as a great compliment.. that same person who said that 30 years back still looks down at me and regards me as a simpleton, on idiot, not quiet made it, who has lost it all, hehehe and I let her… she need to be superior, better than I, smarter, My IQ can not be measured it is so out on the top.. 🙂 Did you look up the word Spat? good one! By the way at the present time the tall bearded irises are in bloom. I have collected on assortment of award winners.. they are breathtakingly beautiful !! By the way ”doll” bit made the hair stand up on my back and I have not been in a dog or a cat valance for a long time!. Woff!

            1. “By the way ”doll” bit made the hair stand up on my back and I have not been in a dog or a cat valance for a long time!. Woff!”

              Hi Eliz, that’s the one I know and love! Nice post. 🙂

          2. HUMOR what is.. from my blog… the way I see it, my reality. I know LRH has talked about it since I have a vogue recall reading that.

            Plus we all know laughter in session is on indicator of energy release. Good stuff.

            Over the past two years I have had sessions on the subjects since I have
            noticed, some people have more others less and some people none at all. I know somebody who have a very good one but after a while listening to it and to other considerations she have, just did not add up, the senses of humor and the rest of her considerations. They clashed. For nothing better to do i have had a session on HUMOR.
            [Not only on one word but regular way of doing things. Do you have on
            ARC B-K? Naturally! If i don’t understand something, have no reality
            than I do have one or more!!! ARC B-K that is! ]

            I have found a beautiful long band like the Milky Way, way out in the Universe.

            That band of energy I loved instantly. It was mocked up from substances like ground diamonds all flashing reflecting each other in myriad of color. And they not flowed but swirled and bubbled like the bubbles in champagne, effervescence!!!

            HUMOR, What a delightful Mock Up!! I loved it. I could see that beings have personality based on such beautiful muck up. That was the end of that session.
            But what happens over the eons to such a beings?

            Well, same as any other beings. Gets a past, in the form of collected stuff which he holds very valuable the so-called havingness, track filled with incredible amount of agreed upon considerations, huge amount of false data, like: life and death, living, learning, love, hate, solidity on all levels, [very valuable shit] lots of loss, since on loss we really can agree that we are small, helpless and lonely, all the consideration, those thoughts are a wonderful commodity which all beings hold so dear to heart etc….etc. so over the eons the lies piles up high= we must make solidity. Magic need to be out lawed.

            So I had another solo session on “Humor’. Well in this one new reality come to light in form of cog.

            Being who use the mock up “being very funny” they do it in order to push away, repel, divert, deflect, drive away, resists, reject the incoming energy flows.””” If I make fun of something which comes into my space than I change that something into lesser in weight in seriousness and that way it won’t hurt me, if I change it than I am in control”””” So, let’s make fun of it, that way wont bite!!

            In other words the beings confront is so low [lower than the frog’s bottom] and have to change everything, no matter what comes in. [ of course we too, who listen to the change being made to that concept we laugh too, since we too can see the difference of the two flows and the comedians representation is definitely much
            better much lighter in weight of the communication and we definitely feel better having that thought, that changed, altered, concept in our space. Wonderful.

            That being, the comedian, the person with great sense of humor have so much fear the only way can handle the so called “living”, in the MEST universe by constantly make “fun” out of everything and everybody. So there are many comedian out there and the comedy, the level of they produce to entertain is depends on the level of tone scale they are at. According to that level they pull in the listeners who are on the same tone level too.

            Today I had another go on the same subject. HUMOR. But I also put in the withhold button. Who would ever thing there is a “withhold” on such a matter as humor? But there was one, so was the instant cognition.

            Humans and other members of the Universe for the ones who have great need of solidity do not or cannot have a sense of humor, because in that band ” HUMOR” nothing can stay solid. Effervescence in the form of bubbling brilliant light where nothing will gel! Look out we can’t have humor, life need to be taken very seriously, so, the beings who have great fear, to lose, things will disappeared on them or even self in some way, don’t have or can’t have a sense of humor. Just can’t. BECAUSE_ Humor melts away ones worries, ones problems, when one have humor: one thinks positive.

            To a serious person who is overwhelmed by fear, Humor is a very dangerous commodity, only the frivolous can be like that who don’t have a care in the world! Good God we must be very correct, serious, keep to the agreed rules, we must keep things as they are, tradition, formality, strong principles, keep things under control at all times, never change, we can’t let our hair down. We need to be solid citizens, or MEST universe will fall apart… Heavens forbid!

            An apple a day, well OK, but The best remedy still remains the same Have a good belly laugh! That will loosen up the solidity of the MEST.!!!

            And what happens when solidity is gone, good heavens we cant let that happen because again there will be magic in the Universe!

            1. Dear DEE the only time one should get into nasty when one can see the humorous side of nasty.. I believe you will understand what I mean by this..
              When one truly understand humor what kind of energy it contains than that person sees through phony stuff which is only a cover up for evil- nasty energy flows..
              Love you back and take care, I miss your emails!

          3. Racer.. question.. what make you believe that you are looking at, or being in all time in Full PT? look out man, that question is a trap. worst than quick sand, or the Black Hole in space!.

          4. Racer… PS: I forgotten to mention my EGO… example: it is so big when I am talking about how high is MY IQ the EGO is doing cartwheels! But what the hell, if you got it flaunt it! 🙂

        1. Well well. Thank you E. You have just given me a fascinating tour through your ‘shoeniverse’. Loved it. THAT”S why I do, what I do. Get it? (Doll?) 🙂

          1. Racer.. after reading your last comment I have decided I will truly enjoy NOT To COMMUNICATING WITH YOU BECAUSE exchanging words with you is pointless, we are not gaining anything useful. Thank you.

            1. E, Round and round – flows, ridges, dispersals. Like ’em, love ’em, leave ’em, hate ’em, (repeat). As you have named me a rat, I will enjoy sharing this song named “Round & Round” by the group named Ratt – lyrics included. Click the link, I hope you like it.

          2. E, we need to work on THAT button,….you know, ‘tha’t one?
            the one that flips you 180 degrees ? For fuck’s sake, “DOLL”
            doll–doll-doll-doll-doll-doll-doll-doll-doll-doll-doll-doll-doll-doll-do
            !!!!!!. Flat yet? …….?? Doll?…. ?

            1. C – YOU need to work on YOURSELF. This self-appointed “life coach” you imagine yourself to be is annoying at best. You use Scientology terms for what you’re doing – when what you’re doing is actually just a mockery of it. All your little unsolicited pointers on ARC are especially cringe-worthy because you haven’t established the ARC to do it! And worse than that – it’s done with such an air of superiority that it couldn’t be more OUT ARC. Better do some retreads, starting with TR 0 (which you are so fond of preaching about). Confront your own comm cycle first. You don’t have the altitude to play guru quite yet..

            2. Flunk for Q&A. I’ll say it again – attend to your own TRs before you start advising others.

            3. E, I’ve said what I thought needed to be said. But I’m sure he’ll continue to not practice what he preaches – like “letting go” He can’t do it himself.

            4. Racer.. you really present your self as a worthless something not worth communicating with. you just proved it again that it is true! If that is intelligent how you communicate and behave and you represent enlightenment..-light heated-ness.. fun.
              I think I stay in the lower level of being a low life.

            5. M&M, don’t DARE stop…please…I’m just loving this. Oh the sheer ecstasy of your joint wrath!…. YES! (punching the air) 🙂

        2. And E, ‘being in present time’. ?? Very easy to discover, btw.
          The simple formula, is right there, in plain view, for anyone (in PT) to duplicate, and emulate. ….. Back to your wonderful garden, we go now, to see what I’m so frigg’n ‘certain’ about, (as usual!)
          …certainty = clarity of observation, yeah? 🙂

          Couple of indigenous birds, doing their thing there. observe ’em.
          They’re..alert (mostly), on at least TWO fronts. 1) predator, and 2) prey! How do they stay alert? (in PT), Simple actually!!!

          …The Ol’ Man, once describing primitive existence, put it this way: …. ” All it took, was THREE narrow escapes from death per day, to keep someone alert and in present time!”

          Pretty useful advice too, don’t you think, E? Of course, it helps no end if you are a natural ‘adrenalin junkie’, like me! 🙂

          For the more fearful, introspective types, (MOST people) the drill TR-O, is the perfect answer….. and brings one up to being interested and in PT! 🙂

          1. “…certainty = clarity of observation, yeah? :)”

            That’s fine, plus take a look at “certainty=clarity=consistency within a certain frame of reference” and see why I would say one can be certain and doing fine for a moment, then move over one centimeter or one second of time and though still certain begin being factually wrong. In a roiling, boiling, seething and swirling universe, truth is true within a carefully defined construct. This is most especially true in the mental band of the universe. This is why a “theory of everything” is such a holy grail and so elusive. It is why a Calculus invented by Newton is so very genius and valuable. It is why a carefully and rigidly defined model of the mind without flexibility, room for review, and correction has problems. Our minds work by one snapshot at a time. Fixating on any one frame, or written another way, expecting any part of our lives to hold still sets us up for problems. Something I love about our minds and the minds of it seems all creatures (maybe plants too) is that they already were mathematical enough to perform this calculus before it was (I say) discovered and published by Newton. Why I say “calculus” is that is the mathematics of predicting the locations of objects in motion. Ours and all living creatures seem to be naturally able to do this. And I say to myself, “What a Wonderful World.”

            1. Well phew!… that’s a relief. Kurt Godel supports it. 🙂

              I see the sun ‘rises & sets’ each day, consistently. See the tides come in and recede, the seasons roll in, fade, and make way for the next. Cycles, circadian rhythms, brain waves, wave-lengths, innate awareness, the most (seemingly) complex symbiotic or anti-pathetic activity across the entire universe of diversified life form, energy and matter. on the one hand, and on the other, mathematical and scientific reckonings, from the most obvious, to the most complex, understood and manipulated for the goals of increased mastery over the erstwhile ‘natural world’.

              The irony of this ‘mastery’, now in the hands of those, shall we say, not quite in sync. with the idea of ‘balance’ (take your pick!) of actual symbiosis with life on this planetary environment of ‘OURS’. — actually don’t give a hoot!!!

              The ONLY balance(s), that mean anything to these untouchables
              are a balance of POWER, in their favor, and of course the hefty (counter) balance of ownership of that age old yellow stuff that ‘backs’ your U.$. greenbacks, to dictate the degree of slavery that is/will be imposed.

              Luckily, I’m too limited ‘intellectually’, to ever get befuddled by this deliberate ‘complexity’. I’m quite content to shoot the gaps, left by those who are immersed in said ‘complexities’.

              Jeez, at least I get to sleep at night, without a shit load of toxic thoughts and nightmares of murderous intent to foist onto my fellow ‘earthlings’.

              Guess that by handing over responsibility to our new ‘masters’, we’ve fucked up the playing field for a lot more than just ourselves, hey?

              What do you say.??

  19. Hey Geir! Don’t you think it incredible?? I mean we’re almost up to 500 ‘responses’ to your innocuous OP “This Is where I’m at” plus the video titled: “Forgiveness and the Freedom of Letting go”

    …and some STILL haven’t got that message… Unbelievable! 🙂

    I really get your sentiments behind the whole “fuck it!” attitude these days…. some things were just never meant to be, eh?
    🙂

      1. I didn’t think we were being any more serious than the boys. Maybe not as self-righteous and pompous as a couple of them, though. 😉

        1. Methinks it will be a tee wee harder to back-paddle down from that shit creek, my dear. A “just kidding”-thingie won’t really cut it for anyone reading this thread. The contrast between the OP and your’s and Elisabeth H’s sentiments is striking and revealing. Thanks for the display, though 😉

          1. Kidding? I was’t kidding at all. Strange misdup on your part.

            And do you really not notice the contrast that others display? Seriously? Wow.

            It’s an uneven playing field here on your blog, Geir.

            1. Oh, I see. When it comes to others, it isn’t a matter of not letting go – they’re just pulling my leg. Yeah, right.

    1. Silly question E! Gurus (boy ones) already have the answers. They just look on knowingly, and smile 😉

  20. BTW, E, you do a shit-load more galactic travel than most of us put together, tell me that the whole thing about “Women are from Venus”, and “Men are from Mars”, is just a fable? 🙂

    (he awaits with bated breath and horrendous anticipation ……)

  21. Geir don’t panic reading the nastiest, the 1.1, the hate filled posts.. Now you can see what was in reality under those smart, polite, full of knowing, philosophical brilliant posts.
    This is a lesson too, seeing what… ‘smart’- polite- good manners’ can cover up.
    You always seen me as rough outspoken whatever was your understanding and I have not changed a bit.. I was not covering up anything with ”good gentle manners. UGH!!
    When some one is like that act that butter would not melt in their mouth : that is the time the alerting bell should sound.. because there is a load of shit is hidden under those lovely kind, adoring words which are full of acknowledgement.. how great-smart-you are!. So have fun.. and see for your self who is where, where the restimulations are.. This is very good lessons to learn from.

    1. Gee thanks for all that E. Now, is it okay with you to answer my question (above) about Venus and Mars ? Just that I was hoping you could / would, without frightening me too much.( Maridi sez I got lousy TR-0… she would know, hey? ) 😉

  22. Hi Geir,

    Say, to the degree that I’ve muddied up your blog and especially this last OP on letting go and made it uncomfortable, I apologize. When I get in the chase, I have trouble letting go, but a word from you would dial me right back if you feel I’ve been too over the top with my comments. The hard line I’ve drawn with Marildi describes viewpoints which in fact I am not as hard core elsewhere than conversing with her. My button is the ongoing disconnection between my oldest daughter in Houston, and her mother who still lives at Hemet, California. Aside from that unfinished business which is my fault for getting my family into, I do not particularly think about Scientology.

    Two days ago, I gave myself a session experimenting with 3 commands of John McMaster’s PTS handling which gave a perfectly good result, kind of a mechanical way of looking at what would be apparent to me anyway. Daily sessions for me seem to inflate my ego and fixate my attention on myself, others might not react this way. With you or others, the curious, I can have a perfectly calm discussion of the merits of Scientology. Marildi on the other hand is representing what I particularly do not like about Scientology and so I react to that with something like, “Oh hell no!” “Letting go for me” needs to be eyes open and scanning my environment for ideological dangers. As you can understand from my writing, Allen Stanfield has had an important influence on me and I feel affectionate toward him for that. I seem to understand and try to be mindful of that I am prone to cult-think. Something there for me to beware of like an alcoholic who must not drink alcohol. That’s just where I am with regard to cult-think and ideologies.

    However, I do not need to be so adamant or snotty and I woke up this morning thinking about you. Thanks for the opportunity to participate in your blog.

    Your friend,
    Chris

      1. Geir, Good morning to you, wherever you may be, this Sunday, 25 May2014. 07.00 S.Africa time. Just been catching up on your blog, and reflecting on some of the content. It is what it is… Some are clearly able to ‘let go’, while others hold on as tightly as ever (resist), or so it ‘seems’?

        The big joke of course, being on ourselves, when we fail to heed the simple message in your OP. ? (Letting goooooooo…)

        To me, after you had proceeded to ‘unlock a prison gate’,
        you were simply extending a totally transparent, open, impartial invitation, to EVERYONE. to join you, in a celebration of marching OUT of the ‘mind-fuck’ prison cell, we have created & ‘sentenced’ ourselves to ( as punishment ) for taking the little things, FAR too seriously. 🙂

        And the strangest thing about this? ‘We’ see ‘some’, kick the host of the ‘freedom club’,( Geir Isene’s Blog – Explorer of Free Will ) –in the teeth! (Btw, of course, your ‘freedom club’, is located directly OPPOSITE the cell gate, unsurprisingly!)

        But the biggest joke of all? When you hand over the symbolic ‘Key’ (Letting Go)..you hear the ‘prison’ gate slam shut! (CLANG) . the key turned noisily in the lock!.(KA-LUNK! ).. And you then see a ‘pissister’, march over to the ‘bar-less’ , open window, hurl the key AWAY,(as far as possible), and then sit, facing the corner, intent on just being a ‘pissister’!!

        And all THIS?. just to ‘service’, a SERVICE FAC?? 🙂

        ONLY happens here on Teegeeack, Mac! 🙂

        (The REAL joke here, is intended just for ‘Pissisters’, LOL. ) 🙂

          1. Thanks Marianne! (missed your bubbly presence btw!) 🙂

            Well now THAT was interesting then! Of course it’s just as interesting today, as in ‘riveting, too! Goes to show, that ‘constant’ change, involves what we might term ‘immutable laws’ which are primary in the producing of those ‘changes’.

            So Geir’s “hunch”, to being close to finding that ‘key’, mentioned then, as being close at hand, just ‘may’ be contained in that little box, that both you and I Marianne, have had the privilege to lift the lid of .

            Sis’, would you do the honors, ‘Adya’s gift of wanting’? or any of the other (lid off) clips, to show “the key” ?

            Tks, L, Ray. 🙂

            1. yes, ray

              first, i feel i understand why Geir said ‘without any forgiveness at
              all’…he expressed it in many ways. Am i right, Geir?

              in this vid’s first 2 minutes Teal speaks about what she means
              by true ‘forgiveness’….the whole vid is interesting (e.g. coming
              up the emotional-vibration scale, how ‘others’ try to stop it…..lots
              of, lots of examples…when one listens to it carefully, stopping
              at times and finding examples from his/her life, it can ‘light up’and
              ‘lighten up’ one in those topics.

            2. Thank you Sis’. Aside from the short transmission breaks, in Teal’s recorded comm, I found it unnecessary to review the tracking. I simply ‘duplicated’ her with total ease and willingness.

              I can appreciate, the enormous amount of ‘looking’, she has put in, to get to the level of freedom she currently enjoys, operates, and discourses from.

              I love her honesty, her total lack of fear, and own ability to just instantly ‘duplicate’ (or be in one’ness, with ) the ‘other’.

              I also got her willingness to ‘just grant total beingness’, as being key to her newly recovered ‘power’, even managing to do so, regarding her former abuser, without needing to ‘forgive’, tn order to take control of her life.

              Wonderful presentation of just how far, ‘we’ have progressed in search of understanding our potential to unlimited being, whatever, however, we wish to be. Teal also showed how ready, (prepared) and eager, the youth are, in making use of modern comm technology (You Tube, Facebook, etc.) to ‘trash’ the old ‘stuck’ mind sets, that refuse to move forward! Loved that too 🙂

              I’ll save the last bit, here to remind our readers/viewers, of the relative absence of any ‘seriousness’ hostility, negative or painful emotion evident, (though it was discussed at length) whereas the amount of laughter / good vibration / connectedness (oneness) present, took one for a high toned ‘spin’ through the entire journey. Wonderful to experience this ‘trip’. Would thoroughly recommend it to anybody. 🙂

              L, Ray. 🙂

            3. …a bit of what happens when one understands the reason (=service) why another comes to one’s life…i guess by true
              understanding we cannot even speak of ‘letting go’ as the underlying truth of our being stays…

            4. Ray
              Thanks for watching it, i see it just exactly the way you put it into
              your com. As for the rest i have put here kind of spontaneously as
              usual, the Adya vid may be interesting for those who may have
              got stuck in a state for this or that reason where they feel that
              inspiration can come only from an ‘external’ source…as in fact
              the ‘external-internal’ and the ‘objective-subjective’ are only
              mind-construct-dualities. In the last vid i put here, which you have
              asked me to do, it is explained by the example of the ‘gift of wanting’. Its summary is at 1.32:06, those who would like to
              see an example of how one can get out of ‘intellectual’, watch it at
              1.26.32.

      2. It is your living room and by your invitation that I blog here. Stirring up a bunch of dust and fire-fighting here is bad manners, I can do that on another channel if I want to. Thanks for being forgiving about it.

        1. Then why do you continue to stir it up every single time, until I get tired of it try to get you to shut up – and then you play the poor victim?

          1. ” . . . and then you play the poor victim?”

            I am not complaining about your blogging nor trying to get you to be quiet. You have a right to your opinion. You have not been censored here to my knowledge.

          2. Marildaaaaay, Ayyye ooonly w’sh at werrrre possabllle, ta fayyynd, a’ w’thynn the’ depths a’ yerrr wooond’d bee’ngg ta s’mppllly ferrgavvve al’ thoooose whoooo ha’ve tres’passs’d agin’ yoooo ?

            Shoooorrrlah, y’ve manag’d ta looook pas’t th’ weeknesss’s af
            oth’rrrrs an’ yerrr passst beforrre??

            Whittt’s sooooo spec’llll a’boooot thas’ rooond af’ ‘funnn ‘n gemme’s he’rrre, tha’ yooo feeeel yerr excloood’d fr’m the funnn
            pa’rrrt ?

            Therrrr’e a’ seea’t wi’ yerrr neeeem on at’ . At’s weeeet’n f’rrr yooo
            whan’ yooo arrrr’e rad’y ta j’st simplayy ‘le’ goooo’ af ‘ a’lll th’ hurrrt, y’vvve bin hoooold’n onnnnn ta’ soooo t’aytllly.

            I knoooo y’ddd l’aykkk ta’ f’ay’lll tha’ gen’u’winnne c’mmrrrraderrry aginnn’ tha’ we’rrre one’ce soooo abbbund’ntt innn ya’, rayyyt, lasssie?

            C’monnn thannn … yooo ca’nn dooo at’ ye knoooo?

            Hee’rrrre ….. tayyyyk mayyy hannnd , wi’lll ye’ ???

            Yrrr oooldd ladddd’ie fr’mmm acrossss th’ glennnnn,

            Raycnnn’..

          3. Errrr, lassssie, g’d mornnnn’n ta’ yoooo! j’st b’foooorrrr yoooo dooo anythnnn’ e’lse whitttt a’boooot’ taykkkk’n a goooood looook a’ th’ furrrrrs’t 3 poooost’s an’ th OP?? Gooood healll’nn stufff.

            Yrrr laddddie 🙂

    1. Thanks for the revelations and the honesty, Chris. Great to get that load off the chest, too. Progress, my good man, every time we can just let more stuff go. The ‘lighter’ the better, hey?

      BTW, Chris, ‘that’, last cog there, will probably resonate further, if you just articulate it to any of those who may be ‘hurting’, a tad or too, here and there? I know yo get my drift, bro”…

      –Cal 😉

    2. hi Chris

      ‘Daily sessions for me seem to inflate my ego and fixate on myself’

      hey! look at this ‘seem to’ !! ‘inflate’ ‘ego’, ‘fixate’ and ‘my’self !

      ‘seem to’ is not the truth….so: what exactly is the truth, how do

      you FEEL after a session? WHAT is that which ‘inflates’? Are

      you sure that what you call ‘ego’ is not just a bunch of universal

      beliefs? Which do not ALLOW you to ‘fixate’ (=enjoy) YOURself?

      (i enjoyed your com thoroughly….for me this is true com…and

      i love true coms)

      1. “how do you FEEL after a session? “Thanks Marianne. I feel reminded that my experience of the world is my own. Daily sessions on the other hand, have the additional effect of introverting and fixating my attention on myself in an unbalanced way. Possibly this is intentional. Regardless, for me this is unnecessary at best. Maybe I just got the idea quickly, IDK. My opinion is that when a person picks up the cans, runs a process, sees the meter react and why, they should arrive at an understanding of what is going on quickly. Solo auditing for me was the grand breakthrough that I had been looking for in Scientology and gave me the understanding of what is going on, the mechanics. In Hubbard’s HCOB, “The Magic of Communication,” he tells half, leaving out the first part where the PC puts the case there before as-ising the case that he puts there. Like playing video games, solo auditing is very interesting.

        1. If you are aware of the flow (life-force) more and more which is
          putting there the ‘case’, that life-force alone is bringing about a
          ‘knowingness’ of Life without any need to understand the mechanics. The ‘why’, the understanding of the mechanics
          can be a separate, a by-product of the ‘process’ when one is
          interested in it. My experience is that the real-deal is the more
          and more alive Life-force.
          If i get it well, you enjoyed solo auditing. If this is so, why not
          pick up the cans again?

          1. “If i get it well, you enjoyed solo auditing. If this is so, why not pick up the cans again?”

            Sorry, I didn’t explain myself very well. I am getting a whole auditing result from solo-auditing. When an auditor sits across from me in control of the constructed situation, I as the PC can only see 1/2 of what is going and am auditing 1/2 blind. I am believing in, trusting and following the auditor’s instructions. But when solo auditing, I can see and experience every part of the session with no more man behind the curtain. In my opinion, this experience should be revealing. As I wrote, I find solo auditing to be very interesting and I also find it to be very circular, introverting, and once one knows the shell game, unnecessary. What I like about solo-auditing is the mental exercise of alternately mocking up and then dissolving concepts. This blew important considerations that underpinned any ideas of myself as a victim or the sad effect of my own mind, and also any considerations that I have to have auditing or the Scientology Bridge to be free. I can solo audit or not, I have nothing on needing to or needing to not. I would pick up the cans again when something like John McMaster’s PTS questions pique my interest.

          2. “If you are aware of the flow (life-force) more and more which is putting there the ‘case’, that life-force alone is bringing about a ‘knowingness’ of Life without any need to understand the mechanics.

            Thank you Marianne. For me, “knowingness” is a tricky concept which opens the door to trickery. I have nothing on those who practice a faith based life. I have and want to be allowed to have beliefs, too. However, I live and work in a world where empiricism serves me better, gets me better results. Certainty is not equivalent to truth. When someone pushes me to accept beliefs as facts, I go on my guard. For its effect to stick, the illusion of control relies on certainty.

            1. ‘knowingness’ has nothing to do with faith and certainty…it is based on perceiving and acting-doing in harmony in life as Life…
              without the intervention and interpretation of thought…
              the illusion of control relies on the concept of a separate ‘ i ‘…even
              when it is seen as having no existence, there can be ‘beliefs’ as
              such…they are then seen as such by life-force iself…

          3. “My experience is that the real-deal is the more and more alive Life-force.”

            You come across as a happy and upbeat person. The metaphors for your life that contribute to that seems fine by me.

            1. thanks Chris, i am…and you come across in your com to Geir as
              one who speaks from the truth of your being, that is from your
              heart with clarity of mind….that is why i responded to that…because it may be time to continue that if you feel like so too..

        2. Chris, ‘putting the case there’ is an interesting issues to me. I see 2 possibilities- 1. putting case there that you actually have, and 2. putting case there that you do not actually have (anymore, or perhaps never had).

          I’ve got the impression either is possible but they are 2 different situations and result in different phenomena?

          1. “I’ve got the impression either is possible but they are 2 different situations and result in different phenomena?”

            I think this is an important question as it strikes at the heart of “what is real?” I didn’t write back right away because I wanted to consider your question. My opinion is that regardless of the use of any empiricism, the two run the same in session, or in the laboratory using EEG. At the heart of one’s experience of existence, there seems to be no clear cut way for me to identify what is truly real. Oh, I separate reality from fantasy to be sure, but at the smallest and most technical level, I don’t know the answer to that. Maybe the answer lies outside the set of what I am and therefore remains unavailable to me?

            1. Chris, several things occur to me on this topic. It seems to me I just recently read a post somewhere about it, and it seems relevant to the whole concept of ‘overruns’, running engrams on a Clear, ‘cleaning a clean’, etc. I suppose I need to ask a trained AND experienced CS to get an ‘authoritative’ (knowledgable) answer.

              But whatever I’ve read/heard til now indicates there is a difference. That may depend on case state and awareness level.

              Oh, and this might factor into the widely varying responses to the OTIII materials. Maybe not everyone did experience this incident as written. It has been suggested that there are many similar incidents on the track, not just one. It is also possible there are people who never experienced any of it. We are talking about ‘existential’ things here. The ‘existential’ is just as ‘real’ as the empirical. Some consider it more so. However they are 2 different realms of experience when viewed from the perspective of reason and logic.

              I will assume my hypothesis is correct based on OPE (other people’s experience), your post notwithstanding. Perhaps LRH’s differentiation between ‘real’ and ‘actual’ is a valid working distinction.

              “Reality’ being what is agreed upon, ‘actuality’ being what a particular person’s experience actually is.

              We may live in the “land of the free and the home of the brave”, but on average the police kill about 600 people a year, at last some of them apparently quite capriciously and unjustly. Such a person’s ‘actuality’ would not agree with the consensus ‘reality’ characterization of the society, methinks.

              That may be an irrelevant example…..

            2. “Reality’ being what is agreed upon, ‘actuality’ being what a particular person’s experience actually is.”

              In my view there really are things going on regardless of my opinion of it. How I mentally abstract what is going on around me is my reality. How you do this is yours. Objective processing helps root one in the objective reality of our dimension of existence. Subjective processing helps one resolve inconsistencies in their abstractions of the world. Some Scientology processing condition one to use force to get their way and to enforce the illusion of control (Tone 40 ashtray). Some processes such as 8C drill one on applying control ot another to get their way with not too little and not too much force. It is a mixed bag of tools. One’s personal reality seems to respond to processing and their neurons fire in the same way whether real or imagined. This is a short remark about a large subject.

            3. I’m not sure we are talking bout the same things here. If I am shot by a cop for no good reason at all, I don’t see that as “How I mentally abstract” the experience. It IS what actually happens and it is what I experience. There is a difference between my actual experience and my mental abstract of it, if you see what I mean. My actual experience is not an ‘abstract’ of anything. It is actually being there.

        3. SESSIONS AT ALL TIMES EXTROVERT THE PERSON PUT THE ATTANTION ON THE UNIVERSE AROUND SELF.. IT IS TRUE MISSUNDERSTANDING BY THOSE WHO NEVER HAD AUDITING THAT SESSIONS=CONFRONTATIONS INTROVERST the ONE WHO HAS THEM.
          THAT IS TOTALLY A WRONG BELIEFE! fabricated by those who ASSUME THEY KNOW! Assumptions are just that: assumptions not founded on the fact of experience.

        4. CHRIS T… I HAVE FINALLY REALISED WHY YOU ARE SO DESPARATE TO DESTROY MY REPUTATION: not because I have rejected your friendship.. but the real reason is that in confidence you have told me your DARCEST UGLIEST SECRETS and over the time in sly slowly you have undermined [ you think you have] beliefs that I speak the truth so if I would tell relay that stuff about you what you have whispered into my ears in private in unburden your soul no one will believe it because you already proved that Elizabeth is a liar, can not be trusted. she makes up things! Well, you are not safe yet! what I got to loose you louse!

            1. apologise, admit that you have made up those lies to discredit me. I have lots of readers and you have no clue who these people are I can write and publish your secrets. Than we have finished closed this once and for all.
              I had enough of you. And there will be no next time between you and I, I no longer walk in hell. So drop the treats. I have no fear of you, You have forgotten something I remained your friend even I have know your secrets.. To me they were no big things because I knew my own overts. this was not OK. what you been doing. retract your lies!

            2. Come on Elizabeth, can I not get you to calm down and relax? Nobody cares how you view yourself, your past, who you say you were, none of it. It is really not important who you say you were in a past life. We’re just blogging here. You can’t take blogging too seriously. The rest of it? Your accomplishments by solo-auditing, etc.,? Nobody is caring what I think about that. Your creative appeal is intact. Let it go.

            3. I will let it go you are so right.. it will be in my post.. all your dirty secrets… I let it flow after all who cares we are jut blogging right?

            4. Suppose They Give a War and No-one Comes?

              ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
              War is a Bore. Wake me when it’s over.

            5. “War is a Bore. Wake me when it’s over.”

              Val, why didn’t you speak up and say that a good while back when Chris was into his usual frothing at the mouth in a continuous stream of goading, and badgering directed at me? And when I finally call him on it his justification is that it is MUST BE DONE in order to stop “cult think”. Yet he feels no need to stop my “cult think” on other blogs.

              And at some point mid the “war”, as you put it, he has the audacity to say “We’re just blogging here.” OMG, which tone level comes up with a line like “I was just kidding”?

              And the war always starts coming to an end when he’s gotten most everyone to feel sorry for him as the poor, noble victim. Then he changes his tune – for the moment. LIke he’s doing now. But he’s cried wolf too many times and some of us are on to him. The pattern hasn’t changed a bit for at least 2 years.

            6. Valkov and why did you ask me if those lies were real or not? Also you could have questioned him too but you did not.. so that is the good indicator that you believe everything you read. crap.. lots of it. So it is not OK to defend self’s reputation, to stand up to liars..because when one do.. again that person is put down by those who rather listen to low tone lies than finding out the facts.. and I thought you were able sort out the facts. I was mistaken. You really think I am that stupid to accuse somebody for lying when they have not don’t it? It seems you do.. that is your problem and not mine.

            7. Guess what.. you have pissed me off, you really have.. that stupid liar never have because he do not worth much as a fart, I never seen anything valuable in him so he did not bother me no matter what he said. But you I have admired.. now your neck hangs on tread and don’t for get it! You see, he don’t have reality on anything on what I post.. so no wonder he twists, interpret everything god only knows what way, so his understanding about auditing and the tech is nil and I am very aware of that.. so they have no weight. But you on the other hand… well I wonder what excuse you have.

            8. I don’t have an excuse and I don’t need one. All actions are basically unmotivated as far as I’m concerned.

            9. Right, you don’t need one 🙂 but if I purr can I have one? I have sent you email in the facebook. I have asked you a question I would love on answer.
              By the way I talk cat lately..My companion is on adorable critter who is great teacher so I am practising cat talk. 🙂

            10. Yah.. I should send her a sympathy card! when reading it the tears of joy would flow out of her eyes and she would sigh” Finally somebody understands me! ” I got you, you no good lake monster. 🙂

            11. Personally I think there are folks here who do not differentiate between comments and originations, but this is not a courseroom and I am not a course soup. What people choose to respond to and how they respond is their own business.

              I have navigated ‘interacting’ with Al all these years without complaining. I think both of us learned something about ‘reach and withdraw’. I don’t see the need to ”rescue” anyone here, that has been around for awhile. Are you hip to the Drama Triangle? It can be fun too, since we are blogging and the knives are not ‘real’. But I’m currently not into knives or chopping people’s heads off repeatedly etc.

              What’s your sign, maybe we could talk about that?

              Chris is a Capricorn. Maybe your planets are in collision?

            12. Actually, Valkov, I’m sure it wouldn’t have done any good even if you had spoken up, so I don’t blame you. Here’s an example of what happened in the same “war” with Chris that occurred almost a year ago, when someone did speak up, starting here: https://isene.me/2013/07/10/scientology-church-of-scientology/#comment-43805

              And it ends with Geir sweeping it under the rug with this:
              “I think you are reading too much into this. Let the overreaction rest. And let’s move on. Ok?”

              Didn’t you recently post this quote: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmond Burke

              The above may be an exaggeration of the situation, but the principle applies. That’s why I’m not quite ready to let Chris get by with playing the noble victim and thinking he has gotten away with it once again.

              “You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.” – Abraham Lincoln

        1. thanks…maybe we have a different understanding of the word ‘inflate’ for me, as an image, a ‘baloon’ comes to mind wherein it is the ‘air’ which ‘inflates’ the baloon and the ‘surface’ of the baloon is the seemingly solid particles which are held together and
          known as matter….once you get aware of you as blowing air
          into the baloon and blow it and blow it until it ‘explodes’, what
          will remain? btw., there is a technique of a very intense ‘breathing’
          whose outcome is a temporary ‘blow-out’ of the mind…it is an
          Osho chakra breathing technique where some see the formless
          Universe as an outcome…

    3. GEIR POINTED OUT IN HIS WRITE UP ABOUT HIS WINS.. THAT HE BECOME EXTROVERTED… after having auditing..
      I wonder where did you get the IDEA -assumption that auditing having audited is Introverting since you never received any auditing so that assumption again is a fabrication.
      Those who write up their cognitions every those posts say differently: how they become aware !!!! of what is out there!

      1. Well, I can see both sides in this. Auditing as a routine can, by its very form, be introverting. That one can also have epiphanies that are extroverting is good.

        1. OK.. Confronting what IS? Looking at something which was ignored till than because it was not comfortable to do so. Looking what ever that maybe belongs to the person who is looking: what is inside the cup or outside of that cup. Introversion is not wanting to look into a direction which makes the person comfortable for that reason he has blocked off that zone because that zone is outside his ability to confront. Yes… confronting for some persons is impossible… no can do.. therefor they find every excuse ever written as on explanation why they cant do. Even go far as wanting to destroy the reputation of something like the auditing Tech. because they know instinctively that it works.. if they can achieve that than I t proves their point that it is not good and feel save, well justified why they are not getting auditing.

            1. what do you call what his been doing when telling lies about me.? Is that not manipulating the readers?
              By the way, for your information I only done the basic courses and the material studied by me when needed while doing the OT levels.
              I defend my self here and since it is here he has posted fabrication. You seem you have taken side and that is obvious.

            2. “I defend my self here and since it is here he has posted fabrication. You seem you have taken side and that is obvious.”

              Geir didn’t take sides and you aren’t defending yourself. You are just complaining that you don’t like what I wrote. Seriously, the characters you named do not stretch the imagination more than the rest of your stories, and that is your charm. You are blowing this out of proportion and worrying about something no one cares about.

            3. I have no idea what Hubbard has to do with the whole thing.. care to explain that bit?
              OK lets look at this in new light….If he can post lies and those lies are labeled by you ”simply as comment from a critic than I can do the same… I too will be just a critic. That will be fair don’t you think so?

            4. Well Geir.. you have shown where you are at.. So long. but I will write up his Overts in my blog. and there he do not have your protection. you have no say.

            5. Geir this is from your blog.

              2x: “The rule I live by is “If you want to dish it out, you’d better be able to take it.”

              So if you and Chris think it is OK to dish out continued innuendo about dreamed-up affiliations in order to denigrate others whose comments you don’t like, then you have opened the door to having your own invectives, innuendo and general persons harshly criticized. Anything less would show hypocrisy.”

            6. Post another comment, if you want, and tell him that it was a post from last year when Chris and him were hinting that I (marildi) was from OSA, and add that the only answer he could come up with was this:

              ·         “I think you are reading too much into this. Let the overreaction rest. And let’s move on. Ok?” posted 2013-07-19 at 20:59 by isene in reply to 2ndxmr  

              >________________________________ > From: Geir Isene – Helping people outperform themselves >Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:45 PM >Subject: [New comment] This is where I am at > > > >WordPress.com >Elizabeth Hamre commented: “Geir this is from your blog. ” 2x: “The rule I live by is “If you want to dish it out, you’d better be able to take it.” So if you and Chris think it is OK to dish out continued innuendo about dreamed-up affiliations in order to denigrate oth” >

            7. Yes, Geir. But sometimes that is an excuse to not change a pattern than isn’t okay. And you have expressed that you do like change.

            8. But it isn’t an absolute. And there is always discretion needed in the world of living with others. Your blog is a very unfriendly place at times, which is a shame because it has some unique plus points to it.

            9. It is a constant practice in anti-fragility and the ensuing practice and pattern of letting go. One may learn that or learn something else entirely. The choice is each and everyone’s.

            10. If I were fragile, Geir, I would have dropped out of this thread way up near the beginning of it when the unpleasant atmosphere started. And many threads before too.

              I don’t agree that a person needs to endure unpleasantness as a test of how fragile they are, or of how able they are to let go.

              My approach is to try to do something about the unpleasantness – and I did try both “letting go” and then confronting it head on (as I’ve done numerous times in the past). If nothing changes after giving it my best attempt, I guess I’ll go somewhere else where I’m actually appreciated and not hassled continuously. Because even the plus points here don’t make up for the degree of unnecessary unpleasantness that is allowed to go on.

            11. It’s not a test. It’s practice.

              When I go to the dentist, I cherish the moment as I practice learning to like pain and the unpleasentness of negative emotions. It’s great practice. And I need to keep practicing – both because I will perhaps never reach perfection, but more importantly – because if I don’t practice, my skills will deteriorate. So, I say “bring it on”. It enhances my anti-fragility. It helps me practice letting go.

            12. Okay, I get that. Personally, I think it’s a matter of which skills one wishes to work on, and for me “letting go” isn’t the highest priority or the only principle that has value. In some situations it is the lesser in importance, so it’s up to each of us to decide what response we think is applicable and when. JMO.

            13. “If I were fragile, Geir, I would have dropped out of this thread way up near the beginning of it when the unpleasant atmosphere started. And many threads before too.”

              In my opinion, this an incorrect idea of being antifragile. Antifragile is allowing ourselves to feel the fragility and go with it anyway. Like the feeling one struggles with when one loses a loved one. Fighting back the tears as I did many times since big boys don’t cry is not antifragile training. Crying and feeling and rubbing one’s eyes and putting one foot in front of the other anyways, while my eyes sting with tears is being antifragile.