exchange
Noun:
- An act of giving one thing and receiving another (esp. of the same type or value) in return.
transcend
Verb:
- Be or go beyond the range or limits of (something abstract, typically a conceptual field or division).
- Surpass (a person or an achievement).
L. Ron Hubbard stresses the concept of exchange in many of his policy letters. In the policy letter from 1982 titled, “Exchange, Org Income and Staff Pay”, he delineates cllearly his take on four levels of exchange:
First consider a group which takes in money but does not deliver anything in exchange. This is called rip-off. It is the “exchange” condition of robbers, tax men, governments and other criminal elements.
Second is the condition of partial exchange. The group takes in orders or money for goods and then delivers part of it or a corrupted version of what was ordered. This is called short-changing or “running into debt” in that more and more is owed, in service or goods, by the group.
The third condition is the exchange known, legally and in business practice, as “fair exchange.” One takes in orders and money and delivers exactly what has been ordered. Most successful businesses and activities work on the basis of “fair exchange.”
The fourth condition of exchange is not common but could be called exchange in abundance. Here one does not give two for one or free service but gives something more valuable than money was received for. Example: The group has diamonds for sale; an average diamond is ordered; the group delivers a blue-white diamond above average. Also it delivers it promptly and with courtesy.
While this sounds well and good, it has dawned on me lately that there is something missing. Perhaps the most important level is missing – a level dear to my heart. I would see it as a level above all these four:
The transcending of exchange. It’s the level of not caring about echange, of “giving without thought of reward”, of “practical karma theory”, of give-give-give. This flies in the face of standard operating Scientology where you are taught “to get your exchange in” and to ensure “others get their exchange in”, where flows need to be balanced, where one only gives with thought of, or even demand for, reward.
Fuck that. Just give. I belive that is the core of life.
Geir Isene - uncut 
In Arizona and wherever hospitality is valued, this is what is known as “country-ways.”
Thanks, now you can understand Why i keep writting yet I seldome get acknowledged which includes you too in that catagory. How fun…
I don’t get your point. Would you like to explain?
very simple explanation. whe I have addressed you, you totaly ignored my communication and in one year since I that was more than a dozen occasion.
I respond where I can see value in responding, that’s all.
Thank that is a good one that was the answer i new you will be giving…
Of course. The other answer could have been that I respond also where I see no value in responding 😉
i did not get your last comment…
i understand one can only respond if there is reality of some kind existing on that subject, it seems you and i dont have reality on each other, really dont have reality on each otheres universes. i can have that very easily.. thank you.
GEIR: Total invalidation-evaluation by you was that any of my communication which were addressed to you were ignored since you decided my comm. had no value; it was not even worth your time to acknowledge…. Or You don’t acknowledge because you don’t believing in common courtesy???, which has rules: acknowledge if somebody talks to you..””” if someone speaks to you if they believe that you are valuable enough to talk to”””…regardless what is value you can take out of that communication… [ teaching communication cycles I really don’t care to do.].
But I believe the value is where another person believes that I am valuable enough and accept me including me in their space in their universe. There is my values: their reorganization that I am..
Why do you choose to be upset over this?
I simply stated that I respond where I see value in me responding.
Geir- You write a post “fuck that, just give”
and then you say, “I only respond where I see value responding”
I know what you mean, … kind of, but I can see Elizabeth’s upset. It does come across kind of rude, especially since it contradicts the message of your post
This is a good observation of an inconsistency. 🙂
.
But as you can see from my comment, it was really not.
Geir, I understood what you meant when you said “value in responding” – simply that you comment when you feel you have something to say that is of value. But I think Elizabeth’s actual point was that giving an acknowledement to her comments (and others’) when they are directed at you DOES have value. Nevertheless, knowing you by now from your many posts, I am 100% sure that you did not in any way intend your reply to her to mean that the value to her (of an ack) was of no value to you.
My guess would be that the reason you don’t always acknowledge people’s comments (not just Elizabeth’s) is simply that there are so many directed at you that it could get to be an unreasonable demand on your time and attention. There may even be a Code of Honor point involved, the one about not communicating unless you yourself desire it. So there would be two truths in this situation – the truth in the Code of Honor and the truth about the value of an ack. Considering that, along with the practical considerations. I can see how it could be a conundrum for blog owners at times, and anyone else in similar circumstances.
You are right.
😉
I find my posts being singled out for moderation and they are kept in the moderation queue for days on end. The message I get is my posts are without value and not worth Geir’s attention.
I don’t care much about Geir’s evaluation. I simply want to point out an inconsistency in terms of a lack of courtesy from a person who insists on others being courteous on his blog.
I am sure this criticism won’t be appreciated.
.
For some reason I have let your post get through here – even after I told you I would not – until you promise to be courteous on this forum. You have made no such promise but continue to complain instead. So, here you go; Your posts will not get through moderation from now on until you send me a promise that you will be courteous on this forum.
And for the casual reader; This is not about Vinaire’s posts on this thread – but rather on past threads where he has been give numerous warnings for being rude and severely lacking of courtesy.
Vinaire, I would like to say that you have censored my posts where Geir has not censored my posts. You feeling singled out is inconsistent, inaccurate, and a reverse-ad hom as many have been warned here to display a modicum of manners. After all, this is a social blog. I follow the implicate rules on your blog and as I learn them keep returning and follow them. We should do that here as well.
Agreed. Several have written Elizabeth off as too eccentric and uneducated. Then dismiss her with the “Frenchman’s wave.” I don’t because she has a unique and for me valid insight into experience which cannot be accomplished by formal education alone. Elizabeth also is fiery with a short fuse but like ether, burns out quick. Her earthy look at life is for me refreshing and enlightening. There is an accuracy in her observations that I believe a seeker of truth should not ignore. If I compared her to the character “don Juan Matus” of Carlos Castaneda’s books, those of you familiar with the reference might get what I mean.
It really doesn’t contradict it. I give and give and give – where I see the value of giving (not for me, but for the other person and for other people in general).
As a comment to Chris, Erzsebet and the others :
Chris says :
Agreed. Several have written Elizabeth off as too eccentric and uneducated. Then dismiss her with the “Frenchman’s wave.”
I don’t because she has a unique and for me valid insight into experience which cannot be accomplished by formal education alone.
Tor Ivar says :
To those who dismiss E for her eccentricity or lack of education, I say : Go live the life she’s had to ! Then we can talk.
Guys, I’ve read thorugh most of the posts of Elizabeth in this thread. I think Geir is quite courteous letting her to post here.
He is also quite courteous about letting you post here.
+1 . . . damn Marildi! You are on fire today.
I have been watching this thread devolve like “Lord of the Flies” and am shaking my head. What started out to be some commentary and discussion of transcendent exchange has turned into exchange of insults and the mud is flying. We are very enlightened, aren’t we? hahaha
Well said! +1 back atcha. 😉
🙂 good one Chris + 1 from me… Thanks for the email too.
Oh, the abundance, giving and recieving is there, the MEST is nothing but abundance… has everything, supplies the game… one can take either side plus be the spectator too at the same time…
When talking about this universe, abundance is the operative word. It is the first word that comes to mind when I think about this universe — Amazing abundance!
Sure, Marildi. He is indeed quite courteous.
gODd, my comment to you posted just now ended up in the wrong place. I wanted to say thank you for the nice reply to me. 🙂
marildi, you are welcome:)
Geir, I totally agree with what you say and sometimes I give with no desire or need for a return exchange. However, at times it becomes a problem when the other person has a bad reaction to it – i.e. that person (due to his own considerations) feels bad about being “out exchange”.
Also, how does this viewpoint fit with having to make a living, for example?
I believe life turns out good when one focuses on giving.
Thanks, that clears it up. I get that you aren’t saying there is necessarily anything wrong with exchange but even where there is one, the focus is on giving. Love it!
The other viewpoint is solely mechanistic, material, non-spiritual – basically the same heartless attitude that Lisa Marie describes in her new song, “So long”. That attitude reminds me of something I have expressed about phone calls from staff, for example – there is only a single-minded intention, basically a intended “exchange” – with no “heart’ there at all and I don’t feel I’m even talking to a person. It used to give me such a forlorn feeling but now I see it for what it is – they’ve been made into a kind of machine. Your addition to the scale humanizes it. Like! 🙂
Harmony 🙂
DO READ THIS ALL OF YOU: I ASK RESPECTFULLY! I AM FULL OF IT!!!! BLOODY HELL LETS IT FLY!!!
Folks since acknowledgement and communication is on the plate so is ERSONALITY: behavior and your believes how a OT should be behave…
I have few question for you all, don’t need to answer unless you wish: What do you think happens to a spiritual being when all the social niceties, the venire the valences are as-ised they no longer in use?
What do you think what happens when the must be this or must be that, behave accordance to the set rules are erased?
Be nice be good, or you no longer belonging here?
What happens when one becomes free of the thousands of different rules and agreements?
What happens to the being when there is no fear, no fear of death or life, no fear of any kind? [You can’t imagine that because yours is still in existence].
But here is few more questions aimed at you all.
What happens when there is no human track left has been erased?
What happens when one no longer have time, years space, thoughts?
What happens when all the rules are gone?
You all went into the Church of Scientology because the energy flow pulled you in. There was a reason for that, big one…
So what happens when all the evil intentions and all other intentions are erased?
Who created the universe? beings like us, we all have, what you all think who has created all… bloody hell, look around you, look at all the things you see, look into the telescope at night, use your imagination , look back at you past sessions look at your recalls. What were they?
What is around you have created it all. It is your power, it is your havingness made all that to be, willed it into existence and that holds it there in solidity.
So what kind of person becomes when all the considerations are as –ised?
You think there is a meek little being, a white haired old lady, who knits and seeps tea and say yes, no dear thank you dear! No…. NO NO.. NO!!!! Thousand time NO!
You all went into scientology to become different, to attain your dreams, but bloody hell, are you really there have you really achieved it?
You have settled for blame and being a victim: since your dream was not big enough your will did not hold that dream in place. Work you were not willing to do, which is the tens of thousands of hours or soloing, but you all wanted results. Well magic Wand will not do it and should not because KEY out will not give you the education-the knowledge the” WHY’S “ you have gotten where you are at.
But confrontation-in session will give you that education in the form of cognitions.
I have, I live my wildest dream more than I could ever imagined, each day is a trill, each action is new creation, no yesterday existing and there is no tomorrow.
A spiritual being is immensely powerful, it is not a person, it is not a being but the creator of all things…
So many of you cry scientology do not delivered, bloody hell it is you who have not delivered. Let’s give up blame, give up the victim bit.. take responsibility for the state you have created and truly believe you are in, since no one can cause you anything.
Behavior folks, humans have that they are in little boxes, and the walls are: the must do….must be…. must have…
Spiritual behavior well there is no such a thing….. I find it interesting, you all were looking for the different, you all wanted to be different, you all wanted to walk among the stars yet you don’t recognize a star walker…..
I am that and solo auditing made that possible. And don’t ever tell me that is impassible to achieve.
Your own “IMPASSIBLE” keep you in the confinement of your own believes.. In my universe there is no impassible existing because impossible is only a consideration a wall, a chain which holds you in yourself created prison.
Marildi and I we talk on the phone often,,, we talk and we say would it be better if we all could talk openly in the blog how we really feel, and not hiding behind social niceties…. Sort of letting our hair down, show our inner self the true theta, that powerful being who is the lurker….
Oh would that be a hoot!!!
And don’t tell me I am banky, upset, unreasonable, you people judge from your own reality.. and that is a very narrow space… .
. OT behavior? What is? You only could be and understand when the false assumption what is as-ised as in session.
I have been this missed, my cognition has been dismissed, yet in their content, written up all there which you all wanted and was the reason you all have entered into the church of scientology…
Have you ever thought what would be your universe without fear, death, or considerations of any kind?
I have that universe and I would love to share my finding with you all.. But first… you need to believe that there is more existing than your own reality.. all is passible and only you limit yourself have that narrow human thinking which is not really you which is the lie hold you there….. And bloody hell I know you all…. I am asking you to come out and play the game you yearn to play..
And if you don’t like what you read here well.. that too is OK by me…
I don’t really know how to respond well to this, except to say that words are clumsy and I cannot find words to say what I want to say so instead I will smile worlds and laugh oceans. My friend, I am glad you speak and it is okay with me if the words fail.
and i laugh with you….
Maria I just received this email from denmark, it is from a solo auditor who has the guts to confront his own case and he is not clear but class4.and he is winning His compliment humbled me…. Because I could give him guidence it was all worth it.
“Elizabeth
you are kind of the father that I always have tried to be for my kids,
and the mother for me that I never (before now) had !”
And laughter of the stars echo across the universe… all is well in paradise…
ml
I’m OK with that:) You are speaking as a Scientologist. So, go and get your service at the Church:) And I am smiling on Scientology as well with all of it’s false data:)
Elizabeth, I had the same reaction to your post as Maria – you made me laugh! The nerve, the brass, the cheek, the guts you have to speak your mind so freely. I could FEEL your freedom. What a hoot is right!
That said, I have to speak my own mind a bit ;). You and I have debated this point about rules before and I still say they have their place and value. Just for you, I reviewed the HCO PL “Manners”, where LRH says that manners and politeness were developed “to oil the machinery of human relationships”. And not just because “LRH says so” but here’s another quote from the issue that summarizes it:
“Good manners sum up to (a) granting importance to the other person and (b) using the two-way communication cycle”.
Even a simple ack (as you yourself have pointed out) can make all the difference. As for the point about granting importance, LRH contrasts that with “arrogance and holding others in contempt”. We’ve seen right in this thread the effect that creates – not smooth-running machinery.
But I do know what you are saying about all of this being considerations and obviously you are right! And when I meet you outside the MEST universe one day, I’m sure it will truly be a hoot. 🙂
Thank You 🙂
Thank you for the nice reply. 🙂
p.s. I forgot something else I wanted to say. Right or wrong are secondary in your comment above and it wouldn’t even matter if nothing you said had made any sense – there would still be that wonderful freedom to it. But in fact you said so much that made sense. You said things that great philosophers have said (which you may or may not know) and I find that to be very interesting indeed. Like saying that we ourselves have created it all and have “willed it into existence” with our power. Nice!
you alway say the right thing no matter what.. if i would not know you long as i do, i would be wondering where did you get that incradible sense of know-how to asses.. you have my admiration.
since i just get off the phone talking with you.. and here i am reading your communication. thank you again..
Just last night, I was discussing with a friend the relative virtues of anonymous giving vs. ‘status’ giving. I seemed to recall reading somewhere that much of current ‘charitable’ giving would vanish were it not for the bragging rights it affords.
But, somewhat earlier, I had also discussed with that same friend the unfortunate prevalence of ‘wasted help.’ ‘Help’ can be wasted for many reasons, some perfectly good I’m sure. Some of those reasons for wasting, spurious or not, will be unknown to potential helpers.
Backing up a little, I jumped from ‘giving’ to ‘help.’ It seemed natural as the only reasons for giving I can see are: 1. to divest oneself of the need to ‘manage’ one’s resources, 2. to place an obligation on another, or 3. to help.
If the reason for giving is ‘to help,’ it seems that the giving done should be ‘responsible’ or ‘intelligent’ giving. A little ‘due diligence’ seems in order — if only to minimize wasted resources.
Personally, when I set out to help someone, whether I’m offering my time and effort directly or providing resources that I controlled, it’s rewarding to see someone’s life actually improved.
Be nice if that actually happened more often.
G.
Gary says : “Personally, when I set out to help someone, whether I’m offering my time and effort directly or providing resources that I controlled, it’s rewarding to see someone’s life actually improved. ”
Amen to that, Gary !
Much charitable giving is driven by the tax deductions it provides. Companies and corporations have accountants who keep track of their earnings and by applying the relevant tax codes to those earnings, they then report to ownership how much money must be given away before the end of the fiscal year, in order to maximize the company’s profit.
Getting a tax cut on what you give does not mean that you earn on giving away. You only loose less (at least that is how it is in the country that gives the most charity per capita in the world)
Same in U.S. Geir.
You’ve reduced charitable corporate giving to the absurd and you are not correct. This kind of negative take on any kind of giving doesn’t come from a generous place, does it?
You may be right on this, Valkov, however it’s not always like that.
However I think that people in general and / or any “universal” authorities like karma or what one calls it, see through this and act accordingly … … and this is not ironically or sarcastically …
I tutor math free when a person cannot afford. I gave hundreds of hours in Idenics sessions free. Now I give KHTK help freely.
Anyone want a session on Skype? 🙂
.
.
This is how humanity should live. As a family.
The funny thing about Transcendent Exchange is that all kinds of good stuff comes back to you, even if you didn’t even care about it.
Yup.
Exactly. Simple Truth. And Hubbard’s complexity around the issue blocks people from seeing and experiencing this simple truth. In South Africa, we call it “Ubuntu”.
Not HUBBARDS complexity block “SEEING” But your own reality… dont blame the guy. he has given more than you have.. Here is what Erzsebet said: ” what you “SEE” is what it hold you blind in that ‘BLIND” state”. think about it…
Interesting way of putting it. I agree.
Chris, about education… being educated… having data from somebody else….
Have Socrates’ Plato’ or any other Philosophers line of thinking and those who have followed their teaching their line of thoughts have those persons attained freedom from MEST?
Have they AS-ised any of the MEST considerations… agreements ? NO, those who study and fallow those teaching any teaching-dogma they just change considerations Key out of one kind and move in: key in-stuck in the different thought pattern
But not one Philosopher has reached the Enlightenment by as-ising the MEST.
Only one “lousy being” has left that legacy behind which can take one out of the MEST and that is the TECH. and it works… I believe the good out ways the bad… therefore he has my eternal affinity..
educated… no thank you, I been there, it did not work… dead end it was…
having fun? i am 🙂
Here is one for you Kim, LRH said in more than one bulletin.. Marildi could you pull out from someplace that Quote? While reading the material take out what is real for you, what you can use and discard the rest. Is it LRH’s fault that you cant do that? Geir had a wonderful post about thinking for self… Shifting through data, It was great write up, I even put it into my blog those to read who do not visit here…
Now, I begun to think about this point some year ago. You see, in Scientology you are thought that what is not written is not true, so after some time you begin to stop thinking:) That’s what Ron teaches to you. “Look guys, there is one reality, and that is the reality of your master, Ron. And it costs some bucks.”:D
But exchange can’t work like LRH defined. An exchange of this kind (LRH definition) is nothing more than a capitalist kind of exchange. And we all know where we can get with that. To slavery.
This is a big over generalization, gODd, maybe even a reversal of it’s meaning in some ways. “If it isn’t written it isn’t true” specifically applies to the data of scientology technology, policy and orders, not to anything else. It is merely a caution to beware of “verbal data”, rumors, and gossip, not a caution against thinking for ones own self.
In fact, it is the ignorance of this simple principle is what let David Miscavige take over the CoS. People just took his word for it that he was in charge, although there was nothing written from Hubbard to back up DM’s verbal contention that he was now the big kahuna, “COB”. DM himself said he thought power was simply if people listened to him.
If Scientologists had simply insisted “Where is it written, that you are now in charge?”, the history of the CoS could have been very different.
Good point,but I don’t think a single scientologist would have been able to ask that question. In the days just following the departure of LRH , most scientologists were craving somebody to step up and keep things going. LRH had established in the minds of scientologists the idea of a central authority figure, namely himself, and in the eyes of most, this figure was infallible. When LRH was suddenly gone, the pattern he had established was set for another such person to assume.
“same as it ever was”
” … and if your days go fine … ” 🙂
🙂 .
You are quick!
Well of course they could have and some did, and they were disappeared by the regime in training. They should have said NO and they should have put their foot down, thousands should have, but we trusted each other and we just assumed that everybody could see the emperors clothes and doubted ourselves. We could have and should have but we didn’t and maybe that was the predilection for Scientology from the beginning. Probably no one was more surprised at its moderate success than LRH.
DM was raised in a broken and utterly dysfunctional way. Like a street urchin fighting for morsels, he learned the school of hard knocks as a young boy, and since he surely didn’t attend or benefit from any type of formal education. I knew a DM years ago and I can tell you with certainty that DM didn’t start out to wreck Scientology. Scientology wrecked him by systematically infusing him with weird and wrong notions of managing others in and environment of ” ‘might’ making immediately ‘right’,” and by flowing him too much power that he was too young and too ill equipped to handle. Sitting at the knee of LRH, he was witness to a completely wrong example of how to make people better. He watched carefully how LRH did not practice what he preached and this is the reason that he hasn’t been in session for decades. Now through ignorance of any better system and left to fall back to his own devices, you can see what type of “Lord of the Flies” organization that he has built. At this point in time, it appears to me that he has been operating strictly on “motivators” for a couple decades, getting worse, and with very little free Theta left. He is utterly a broken person flailing about and punishing in every direction. His demise is certain, but it was the Sea Org, and public Scientologists and Scientology who failed HIM as well as the Church and, well, maybe that was the predilection for Scientology from the start. The writing was on the wall while Hubbard still held the reins. DM is HIS product. Scientology will fade from a little fringe group at its height to an even wispier little fringe group in the future years. Will it disappear utterly? I don’t know but it so totally could. A “true” Scientologist behaves like a degraded being who thinks they are being a superior being. It is upside down and reversed. They are just taught to cling to that “self” of a superior being on a superior track to a superior goal and PUSH! AND IT DOESN’T WORK; IT HASN’T WORKED; and IT’S NOT GOING TO WORK IN THE FUTURE. The “selves” participating in and calling themselves Scientologists are not getting better, they are getting more solid.
Anyway, I am not shooting at you Valkov, I guess I am just shooting off . . . I so totally duplicate your viewpoint and it is one reason I have so much affinity for you is that my own thinking processes and stable data are similiar to yours and in the past they were exactly like what you write about Scientology — I could have been writing the words that you write in support of Scientology . . . Always explaining that people are mis-using Scientology and this is the reason for its problems. The confusing part is that Scientology is not bereft of good ideas, so it is easy to get caught up in the “baby and bathwater” argument. The overriding and dooming quality of Scientology is that it is a totalitarian group. It is not the “True Group” that LRH wrote about. It’s never going to be that kind of a group because it is a totalitarian group. It overridingly IS a totalitarian group. That is not going to get fixed up.
Chris, Ii did not write “in support of scientology”. I wrote about how I understand and have always understood the particular sentence gODd wrote about, If it isn’t written it isn’t true”. To me that is and always has been an exhortation to NOT uncritically accept and believe every bit of hearsay, gossip, rumor, and opinion and innuendo anyone put out to me. Really it ought to be applied broadly in life.
It is an exhortation to actually look at the evidence and then think for yourself. LRH wrote it about scientology and the scientology materials specifically, but actually it is a good rule to follow anywhere, anytime. In this age of mass media it is of course not true that if something is written and published, it is true. “Issue authority”, credibility, and other factors enter in too.
The point I was trying to make is that that, or any sentence in any language, needs to be understood at a conceptual level, not literally, but it’s basic meaning needs to be encompassed and made one’s own, or one misses the mark more often than not. It has nothing to do with “writing in support of scientology”.
My understanding of “scientology” is my own. To the extent I have any understanding of it at all, of course. To the extent anyone has a need to “evaluate” my understanding of that or anything else, well, that is their own creation and comes from their own need to have it be like that and doesn’t not necessarily reflect any objective reality of the situation.
LRH’s intentions were his own, and today a lot of people are writing novels based on their own conception of what his intentions might have been, what his actions might have been, what effect he might have had on any others, etc etc.
You’ve got the start of such a novel going right there in your post above. it is all a fiction you have created. None of it is actual time, place, form and event, as far as I can see. It seems like conjecture and speculation as far as I can see. I could use the same set of facts and observations you base your novel on, and write a completely different novel, painting a completely different picture of LRh, his relationship and with and effect on DM etc. But I don’t bother,because I can tellthe difference between what I know and what I don’t know.
There is a pretty well-known Japanese movie about this kind of thing, called “Rashomon”. It is based on a written story titled “In the Grove”. It is about a rape and a murder. Five witnesses including the murdered man’s spirit tell what happened. Each one tells a different story.
The difference is, I personally believe that communication, actually, duplication, is possible. Duplication of conceptual understanding is possible. And duplication of time, place, form, and event is possible.
Thus, following the principle I have been expounding upon, I do not accept any of it except as something you made up. It is “not written” to me, and thus it is not true. I doubt that it’s even “true for you” because as you say yourself, you are “just shooting off”.
So what are you shooting off? You know, LRH talks about how a person can go from being very convinced that “scientology works” to being very convinced that “scientology doesn’t work”, and how to process people who are swinging by that dichotomy.
So, one good shoot-off deserves another, so here you are.
I do recognize that you are my friend and I thank you for it!
May all my friends be well and happy!
Thank you Valkov. Wellness and happiness be on you as well!
Excellent post, Valkov. I don’t know how you do it to hit every aspect like you so often do and with obvious intelligence. All I need to say “Yeah – what Valkov said”. 😀 +1 on every point you made.
On one thing – you said that “LRH talks about how a person can go from being very convinced that ‘scientology works’ to being very convinced that ‘scientology doesn’t work’, and how to process people who are swinging by that dichotomy.” I would like to know the reference, if you can remember. It always seems like the converts to or from any given belief system or philosophy are the ones most ultra adamant about it.
Thanks Marildi!
Sorry, I will try to find that reference. I believe I read it in one of possibly 3 LRH books, maybe COHA, maybe another one.
I think you are correct on Miscavage.
I’ve just found this piece from LRH:
“Now, the guy in off the street, he isn’t hard to audit at all. He’s so damn stupid that he lets the auditor do anything.” Wow!!!
Can hear it on video here at the beginning: http://truelronhubbard.wordpress.com/wtf/
That is the view of this “humanitarian” man on people.
And you can find plenty of other quotes where he advocates violence.
LRH and my own father were the same age. They were old school. By this I mean that the “greatest generation” had a hard edge to them. I hear it in LRH’s voice when he talks – sounds in timbre, accent (Western USA), modulation, cliches, and attitude; like my father and his four brothers. These men lived rigorous lives which demanded much and forgave very little. They fought a couple wars, the cold war, saw the automobile replace farm animals as transportation, saw man walk on the moon and Madison Avenue set the tone and become the backbone of our culture.
Today we cultivate softer gentler personalities and can be shocked by 40 to 60 year old news reels. This is how I view LRH’s “hard side” when I listen to it. It is not particularly an aspect of his personality which drives me crazy. Or said another way, the “violence” that he advocated was as much bravado or even tongue-in-cheek as it was serious. Nevertheless, I feel that he sowed the seeds which grew into the insane acting “Lord of the Flies” organization which we see today. You see, the difference is that I am older and use judgement when listening to him say, “See her? The one with the pink legs sticking out? She didn’t like me,” (paraphrased from Power) DM grew up on this stuff sitting at the knee of the old man when he WAS an old man. Thus I feel it had a different and more literal effect on him than it would have on me.
Valkov in some way you are correct. It is indeed a bit overgeneralization. But when did you came out of ethics with an agreement on what You think or believe in a certain situation is correct? My observation is that the system is build up on the PR speech of what you observe is true for you, but “here you are in our system and what is true for us (LRH) must be true for you otherwise die (KSW). KSW is not just admin, it is the tech as well and not just auditing tech. I would apply KSW and any sane people would apply it this way:
It is said “And if anything I tell you, or have ever told you, is discovered to differ from the individual observation (be it a good observation), then it isn’t true! It doesn’t matter whether I said it was true or not. Do you understand? (– from Scientology and Effective Knowledge, a lecture given on 15 July 1957) So, “if they’re aboard, they’re here on the same terms as the rest of us—win or die in the attempt. Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists.” (– KSW1) And please, apply the second quote in connection of the first quote.
But did you ever, ever observed KSW applied to those datum which are about your observations? I’ve never, ever experienced that. So that is why my overgeneralization, if we can call this overgeneralization in this case:)
That’s a good point or a good way of putting it goDd. Scientology for me is a jumble of brilliance and megalomania. So while I still use it, I do not trust it. Thus I use it with mindfulness that it contains potentially useful tools. But any thought of it as a “complete work” which is “true” has long since flown away.
Hi guys, it seems I can’ comment anymore here and on Marty’s site:)
Is it censorship or technical problem?
Your comments are heard load and clear here at least.
I see you.
Anyone heard about the guy (somewhere in some Asian country, like S Korea or the Philippines) who has restaurant where all meals are free?
There is video on youtube, (which I could not find by a brief search), that went around the net a couple of yrs ago.
I think he even has a couple of such restaurants.
Dio
Re: acking comm
What I notice about comm is that with some people the theta of the comm ascends higher and higher where I get a high from the comm.
Others stay more or less on the normal level.
But some comm quickly descends in to mind numbing stupidity, hair pulling, screaming madness, entheta, downward spiral.
That is especially where I decide that it is better not to respond, to not get contaminated.
Dio
DIO “That is especially where I decide that it is better not to respond, to not get contaminated.”
You are on this planet and you believe you arte not contaminate????? I am glad you believe in you own jokes… goooooood one.
” Just give. I believe that is the core of life ” . To me it looks like a breakage of the mechanical and recursive aspect of life, a kind of injecting life into matter. Interesting concept to probe.
Indeed 🙂
Ah Geir, a man after my own heart!
As well, there is an inevitable evaluation of what is valuable when attempting to balance all supposedly reciprocal acts. All too often it leads to a very arrogant state of being i.e. I am “so much better than you are” when in reality there are acts that cannot be measured yet have tremendous value. Sometimes the very act of being a recipient is the exact “exchange” that is beneficial and vice versa. Life isn’t at all a series of “balanced” exchanges when the only element being examined is material.
And I have often pondered the reality that all giving is giving to all. Am I not a part of all that is? And as a citizen of an entire universe, am I not creating/giving as well to that which I call myself?
Nice reply 🙂
Maria says :
“And I have often pondered the reality that all giving is giving to all. Am I not a part of all that is? And as a citizen of an entire universe, am I not creating/giving as well to that which I call myself?”
I’ve read this a few times and all I can say it that it’s beautiful ! 🙂
“Hell hath no fury like a giver scorned.”
Geire’s origination brings forward a mass of thought. And little time to express or read other opinions and comments. I have long been suspicious of the exchange idea. Tend to audit “for free” and let people contribute as they see best (for example painting the flat – something I hate). And tend to give But I do not favour parasites, either in humanity or in nature. Tend to favour common sense, applied to the specific situation, rather than a rigid rule. Living off any sort of pension could be considered out exchange – and in fact the principle behind insurance are “out exchange” (and you see people trying to get back from the insurance company what they put in!)
You have also what you might call the negative side, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. He hit me so I hit him equally hard! Revenge seems to me based on some aberated considerations about exchange. Wars tend to start that way.
All best wishes, Ant Phillips
If one focuses on giving and love it and at the same time associate with others of like focus, then life is truly great.
Upset, me? where did you get that silly assumption? I just don’t care to have my toes to be stepped on tooooo many times.
But thank you for whatever, since I am such a gentle person so forgiving so easy going [ I lie here] you are understood and forgiven but next time I take your heart out and roast it over the hot pit..
Here is the link to the video on you tube, Valkov has sent this to me last year he said this is how he sees me. I happen to agree with, this music is part of me , my universe has similar energy flows. The title is Hun warriors. PLEASE LISTEN TO IT, might just get some reality on Erzsebet .
Elizabeth, all Hungarians are crazy or just some of them?;)
You knowledge is simply chilling… Please read this tread about my people..
Hungarian history
http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/history.html – Cached
Hungarian coronation jewels Important dates of Hungarian history. 5th century: The Hungarian tribes left the area of the Urals. They passed along the Volga and …
Elizabeth, I have the impression – looking at your blog – that you communicate a bit like being possessed (e.g. with Scientology). I do not want to be rude, I just want to give you some hint and help. Like, here is your post from your blog: “Jesus, on OT to have a headache? She can’t be on OT than!!!” (Jesus was a man I guess so not a she, but moreover) you should have some knowledge of Christ besides the bullshits what Hubbard told to you about him.
Nationwise, what use to identify yourself with a third dynamic like a nation? I do not think an OT (if there is a honest meaning of this word) would do that. Besides I do not give a coin for being an OT:) It’s far enough for me to know the secrets of the Universe and leave it behind;) OT is a state of the Ego.
Now, back to your history, it’s full of suppression since the year 1000: “converted to Christianity”, “The Mongolian Tatars devastated the country.”, “Turkish occupation”, “Habsburgs”, “The Trianon Treaty reduced Hungary’s area by two thirds and the population by one third.”, “The Nazis occupied Hungary”, “Communist control”. And now, Scientology:)
It just fascinates me more and more how much false data and strange ideas one can receive and conceive just from some simple acts, involving Scientology.
I really appreciate people like Geir who even profited and Lisa who broke the spell.
I will not debate your reality, so why mine is so rudely put down by you?
Just because you have no reality on my universe That do not make me erroneous, inaccurate mistaken, bad corrupt, immoral or crazy… foolish or irrational..… in any ways.. You mentioned a word CRAZY in connection with me and my people… NOT OK. Remarks like that from you only reflects on your own reality, not mine…how you see the world around you…
Being in any way Different –dissimilar- contradictory opposing to your reality is not bad, even if you don’t have reality on it, that not make it bad- evil wicked depraved and degenerated in any way: it means just Simply different… is that so difficult to comprehend?
It is good to get to know the workings of other universes… have on insight to any ones inner universe that private place is in fact a privilege,[ Geir’s Blog or Silvia Kusadas blog is their universes, so is my blog too..] these involvements expands develops enlarges one’s own reality and makes one wealthier in experience… please tread lightly….
Elizabeth, when you say “tread lightly” please, do not forget that your religion calls for the merciless extermination (rather covertly) of all those who are below 2.0 on the tone scale. No physical test (as LRH demands from psychiatrists), only a judgement. So what universe it is? Who made similar moves? The fascists, the communists and similar totalitarian regimes. This is not treading lightly.
You can’t ask for what you do not present yourself.
you have mistaken me with somebody else… i really dont know you and you do not have any reality on me, just one item here I dont have a religion i dont belong to any group of that kind.. so you assume
Listen… if you hate scientology and anything and anybody in connection to it than why are you in this blog commenting? We all HAVE been in scientology we are not hiding that and we all have very good reality on was good or bad for us..
I can’t speak for all of us and I wont.. But no matter what we have been before our life was changed by the information the church has offered because we have studied that dogma philosophy that can’t be in any other ways… that just happens…
Information pours into our universes continually, in form of news, any communication and anything the EYES pick up what You sense: you experience… all yours to do whatever you wish to do with..
So don’t blame others for your decision how you have or have not used the information which the church of scientology has offered. And most of all don’t throw stones at us because we made a good use of what we have learned…
The information we gained is ours, We paid for [same as the daily bread we eat] it, is therefore ours to use any way we wanted to…
Just a gentle reminder: it was up to us our decision and yours too alone…. No one held a gun at your head or at ours and made us walk through those doors, and it was our own determinism we acted upon when to leave, walk out finally through the same doors once and for all.
If you here to makes us wrong for that… who you are kidding?
Don’t forget, Erzsebet, that crazy is a honorific on this blog ! 🙂
Tor, just for you my dear::: hehehe..” infidel” is a none believer which I dont believe you are..
🙂 i agree to that… but i truly prefer ”idiot” so thundering idiot sounds just right to me.. 🙂 i love thunders.. darker the better… i been auditing clouds of late..Tor you would not believe or you will belive , if you read those books of course you belive what is in those clouds above, beside water of course..
I have seen a ceremony in session when the Shaman-spiritualist figure who dealt with the spiritual matters of the tribe, in the ceremony where all members of the tribe were present First the body was buried in the earth naked, without any ornaments. In order to become what the body was : dust to dust once more.
Than all the warriors put their spears stocked them into the ground around the buried body in circle the spear were pointed toward the sky, while the tribe people lay on the ground face in the dust with eyes closed in the distance.
They had to be in the distance in order not to be effected by the Shamans song and their spirit too be transported out of the body before their time has come….. Just outside the circle of the upward pointing spears the Shaman sang his song, open arms and his eyes closed.
The open arms had the significance: indicating to the spirit to open up and let go of the body… the Shamans closed eyes indicated that spiritual transformation was private matter and no other persons should have the power of influencing such transferral … the spear enclosure was there for the spirit to fallow the upward energy flow
By the end of the song there was a little puff of a cloud above in the center and from all around other little white puffs joined the new comer.
The whole tribe joined now in a new song, chanted in celebration, the song was about asking the spirits to keep their power with the tribe and to continue their support and not to withdraw completely into the spiritual universe because they were loved deeply here by those who have stayed behind who were trapped immobile in the body and because of such entrapment they needed the help of those who were free and love is the everlasting connection which can’t be destroyed by passing of the time…. and that remains the connecting power…
Tor, i been thinking about the word it self ”crazy”’ [ i have audited great amount what is crazy and have reality on it] but the word crazy do not have personality, since souds awokes underlying energy on which the word is put on… Words carry the enrgy or better explenation: the energy which flows like a river and imagine the words are little boats floating carried by the currents…. soooooo, crazy dont have personality.. but thundering idiot sounds wonderful powerfull.. That thundering idiot Attilla rides again!! now that has power, it is a statment…. crazy is a dis- missing gesture…
In regards to the subject of different realities……..
There is an axiom on this planet, or this universe that is not realized or understood, or very poorly at best.
Hubbard wrote the first part of Dianetics on it, in a way of clarification that no one ever did before.
That is the reality of agreement.
If two people look at a subject, (a reality) and they each see something different, then at least one of them has impaired judgement.
That is also well described and explained in the Science of Survival and the Chart of Human Evaluation.
A person who is below around 2.5 or so, is not able to see and understand what he is looking at and is not able to or can not be depended on to make an accurate report of the subject. He cannot be a reliable witness in court.
In extreme cases society has agreed that these kinds of people cannot be allowed to be at large. They must be instituitionalized. That is the purpose of justice, or at least part of it.
Society has agreed that there is a common reality amongst sane people.
Sane means to be able to know the difference between right and wrong. The ability of discernment. Good judgement. Good reasoning powers. Accurate observation, evaluation, processing of information of events and reporting of those events.
There must be law and order in society. There must be common standards. There must be system, order and control, to protect public safety.
Last week a senior scientologist reported on another list, that he was teaching a course and taught that if four people, each standing on a different corner of an intersection, and watched an accident happen, they would each give a different version of events. And that would be normal or OK.
I contended that if that was the case, then at least three of them had impaired judgement.
I claimed that the teacher was teaching aberration.
Their stories or reports may be differently worded and be from four different viewpoints, but if they were all sane, the stories would fit together well, with no conflicting data.
It is only in cases of people being below 2.5 or so that they would not all see the same thing or version of events.
The definition of truth for this matter is the exact description of time, place and description of events.
So if each of the four people were above 2.5, which means relatively sane, then they should all see the same events.
They would see the true version of events, or they would all see the truth of the matter, or the subject.
That means that they have good judgement.
If they do not all see the same thing, the same scene, and describe four different events, then at least three have impaired judgement. Or in other words at least three are insane. At least three are below 2.5.
Evidently the sr scn has flunked scn big time and has been a fraud all these yrs. He is still below 2.5.
Why? Because he still evidently does not understand insanity and still has impaired judgement and poor reasoning powers.
I also said that the authorities should lock the teacher up for teaching aberration or insanity.
Teaching insanity is one of the worst crimes, because he is appearing as a trusted authority and implanting aberrated operating data into students, of the worst kind.
He is impairing the fundamental judgement of students.
He is making more of the type of people, as the guy who went on a shooting spree last year in Norway.
One of the commandments is: Thou shall not bear false witness. Which means thou shall not see wrongly and make false reports.
The result was that he and several reactive minds on the list reacted and boiled over and in essence, screamed blasphemy and off with his head, and I was blocked from further posting on the list by being put on moderate.
Every word I said, was in accordance with Dianetics and scientolog, and everything else that is true and good.
It is evidently just as dangerous to speak the truth today as it was Jesus in his time.
Dio
Dio,
There is such a thing as black and white thinking, which may seem like truth because of its appealing simplicity. But it is actually what’s called two-value logic and life just doesn’t happen to work that way. Truth doesn’t work that way. If you insist upon that kind of thinking, for the sake of clarifying (supposedly) all the complexities, I believe it will let you down.
Sincerely, marildi
Hmm, what to say, no I am not an infidel I think, more of someone who realizes he doesn’t know …
Listen mate, it is very easy to be a criticizer… when you post your cognitions[ which you never will] same as I do than we can be on the same reality level… don’t knock what you don’t understand…so buzz off, I did not ask you to read my posting.. it seems the only reason you go into blogs is to put down no matter what you read… as I said before if you don’t like the blog, than why bother to read ? Your comments are the reflection of your universe, negative mass, it is a nice windy day, go and fly kite. Fresh air will do you good..
Elizabeth,
Critics are your best teachers.
Calm seas do not a good sailor make.
Always invite, at least constructive criticism.
Ever go to a seminar where at the end of the seminar the presenter handed out forms for criticism?
Ever go to a restaurant and see a form on the table asking the guest to make comments on the meal and the service?
That is one way the universe processes us.
Criticism is a form of processing.
It challenges you to evaluate and reason your perceptions based on someone else’s viewpoints to help you get into alignment with the truth of this universe.
Definitely not all criticism is valid.
It is up to you to evaluate it for it’s accuracy.
And do not evaluate according to your standards, your beliefs, your opinions, but to the truth.
Does believing make something true?
Dio
🙂 hehehe 🙂 sunday sermon hehehe 🙂 love the sermons, i hope now that is out you feel much lighter better… long as you having fun Dio…:) long as you having fun go for it 🙂
Dio, you posted “If two people look at a subject, (a reality) and they each see something different, then at least one of them has impaired judgement.”
Give me a break!
This is not necessarily true at all. Your conclusion is more likely false, than true.
If I am standing on one side of a house, and you are standing on the other, opposite side of a house, we are not seeing the same things, although we are in a sense looking at the same “object”, (the house).
We are seeing different things, but it is pure BS to conclude that one of us has impaired judgement.
I don’t come to read this blog so as to have to sort through intentionally posted falsehoods! Thus I often skip your posts.
Thank You Valkov… I love you even more… which is not passible of course, but sounds good… now if you were here I would offer you to have tour in garden . my best to you as ….
Valkov,
Just because you disagree, does not mean that you are right and I am wrong.
At the same time, you misunderstood what I said.
I am glad that you often skip my posts, because I don’t want to throw pearls in front of swine.
I do not want to disturb or rattle your bank.
Dio
Valkov,
Second post script.
It is good to know that you are below 2.5, that way no one can expect much from you.
I hope there are some competent auditors on this list that are willing to help you with therapy.
Dio
dio… go and look into the mirror i am sure you can see how ugly you are… inside and outside…
Elizabeth,
In accordance with your request:
I just looked in the mirror to make sure.
I report that the following description of what I saw in the mirror, is an exact description of what was there.
I am so gorgeous, I can hardly stand it.
I cannot go out for a walk in my town in the day time. The women loose all control.
But I am aware that beauty is vanity and short lived, and a trap,
and such women are a poison to a good man’s soul.
The bible says, that they will cause a man’s bones to rot.
That is called bone cancer.
In accordance with what Hubbard said in Hand book for preclears, if you want (seek) to be effect of admiration, that is, use your beauty to attract (also called vanity), you open the door to unpleasant effect.
(That, by the way, is the primary reason for all the breast cancer today. )
Your cold problem can only be in accordance with the laws of cause and effect .
The problem is that you are creating case, by your attitude and operating data, much faster than you have been able to audit it out.
Dio
lets cut the chase, with you i do not wish communicate.. ever…. is that clear? can you duplicate this much?
Yes, Elizabeth,
I can duplicate that.
I fully understand.
The truth makes a lot of people boil over.
Some people thrive better, are happier and more content operating on lies and false and limiting data.
Go to you tube, and search for the video, Plato’s cave.
There are many.
Most are done poorly, but there are a couple of good ones.
Watch at least ten and you should be able to come across a good one.
Dio
He’s just goofing on us Elizabeth, Marildi, Valkov . . . no one would pontificate like that and be serious.
Valkov,
Post script…
You also just placed yourself on the tone scale below 2.5, if you think two people can look at the same thing, and see something different.
Note, if you read my post carefully, you will read that I said, that if four people see an accident from four different corners, they could see it from four different points of view. It does not mean they are seeing something different.
It means that they just see from different points. Their data will not conflict. Their data will fit together without conflict. Like pieces of puzzle.
That is very different than your criticism.
Your criticism comes from an aberrated viewpoint.
A shallow and narrow mind, with quite limited perception and reasoning powers.
Dio
You know, Dio, before you started posting these kinds of comments there had never been so much ruthless name-calling on this blog – in fact, I don’t remember any actual name calling as such, at all. This is the height of being impolite and it truly perplexes me as to why Geir even allows it when he has come down hard on much less. I wonder if he reads your comments.
You can see what the name calling leads to – just more name calling in return, on the part of others. You talk about tone level but you don’t seem to see how you are lowering it on individuals and in general on this thread. What tone level do you think it is to bellittle other people?
Miraldi,
I see that you also have a huge MU.
Where did I call anyone names?
Where did I not have any manners?
Where did I say anything that was not true?
Please quote and explain in full detail.
Thanks,
Dio
Miraldi,
Post script: You sound like the little petulant child, who does not know what else to do or say….who gets defeated in the game, and goes home to mama and says ,, baaa, baaaa, baaaa,, he’s calling me names, baaaa. baaaa. baaaa.
It is time to grow up.
Dio
To Miraldi, Chris, Tor, Valkov, Elizabeth, and all my other beloved critics,
I sincerely thank you for your criticism and comments….
I am reminded of
and I say to you these words by Shakespeare:
But man, proud man,
Dressed in a little brief authority,
Most assured of what he is least aware,
His glassy essence, like an angry ape
Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven
As makes the angels weep.
Dio
@DIO : Dio says : “Valkov, Just because you disagree, does not mean that you are right and I am wrong. At the same time, you misunderstood what I said. I am glad that you often skip my posts,
because I don’t want to throw pearls in front of swine.
Tor Ivar : This actually more than implies that you consider Valkov to be a swine, and that is a very bad AdHom.
I think you apologize !
Tor,
You also have a huge MU.
I did commit any ad hom.
I did not call anyone names.
I just called a spade a spade, or in other words, I just said the truth.
Just because your mind short circuited on your MUs, does not mean I am wrong, or said anything that was not true.
or, just because you disagree with what I said, or and did not see honestly, but saw through your bank, does not mean that you are right and I am wrong.
Calm seas do not a good sailor make. So get your sail boat out on the stormy sea and learn to be a good sailor.
Going home crying to mama will not make you a big strong boy, with a healthy, strong and sharp mind.
Dio.
In the spirit of “How to Study a Science” of which the message is that understanding is only acquired by studying and evaluating all other datums of comparable magnitude in the known universe, and in an attempt to dispel some entheta and limited thinking, I present the following thoughts to ponder:
Quotes from the Urantia book
Please read carefully, these gems of wisdom:
“New religious insights arise out of conflicts which initiate the choosing of new and better reaction habits in the place of older and inferior reaction patterns.”
“You should never forget that intolerance is the mask covering up the entertainment of secret doubts as to the trueness of one’s belief.”
“Sincere men are unafraid of the critical examination of their true convictions and noble ideals.”
“…it requires courage to invade new levels of experience and to attempt the exploration of unknown realms of intellectual living.”
” ‘Coming up through great tribulation’ serves to make glorified mortals very kind and understanding, very sympathetic and tolerant.”
No living creature becomes strong without agitation.
Have a great day,
ARC
Dio
I am the Poseidon on this blog. I own these oceans, and you sail here because I allow you to. I can also be your Nemesis as many sailors well know.
The God of the Seas appreciate common courtesy among sailors, and since you have been a bit of a Bad Boy lately, I gently breeze your boat over to that island and strand you for the next 48 hours, at which time you will reconsider making unnecessary waves for the other sailors.
Oh, wait. Someone else just did that. A sailor named Chris whipped up some sailor-to-sailor intra-discipline. Of which I could be offended as he encroaches upon the responsibilities of The Ocean God. But as Poseidon is in a rather cheery mood, he decides to applaud the initiative.
🙂
gODd – I need to warn you that good manners between bloggers are required on isene.wordpress.com. You’ve been having a little tiff with Elizabeth which has gotten out of hand and I need to mention that ad hom remarks are frowned upon here. We have a certain propriety and you are expected to conform, not your opinions, but your behavior when writing here.
Elizabeth, that was was great music and most interesting times. Thanks for the link.
Quote of the century: “Fuck that. Just give. I believe that is the core of life.” Geir Isene, 2012
I can only add: Geir, I believe you understand the purpose of life: ♥ ♥ ♥
Kim
(Personally, I have recently, and finally, after extensive review and observing its affects on many people over several years, thrown out Scientology out lock, stock and barrel, as utterly worthless. Fuck Scientology. It is a left-hand path. I prefer the simple way of Loving, and Giving.)
Kim: you have last your dream and you blame others for that, where is blame on the tone scale? You wanted the magic wand, you got it but you have to learn how to use that darn thing.. By taking responsibility of your universe, your very own creation… what you have is what you create it cant be any other ways… impassible…
Elizabeth, forget the Tone Scale. That is part of the implant named “Scientology”:)
only scientology is a implanted item on this planet? i only ask this one question and i will not debate scientology on any level… so yes or no will do. thank you.
Elizabeth, this question implies there are implants.:) Step out of the nine points…
the question was; do you believe that scientology is the only implanted thing here? yes or no… what is your reality on that? i have no clue what is ‘nine point’ try to remember I am a very uneducated person who is a bit crasy … hehehe.. i live this universe!!!!
Elizabeth, that’s a similar question like “do you still beat your wife”? It implies something which may be not there at all.
you are not answering… yes or no… it is your statement that scientology is a implant.. if you know that… than you know what other implants are in place, if there is any out there: are there any or no. are there any other implants beside sientology? and what is 9 steps please? I am asking the same questions over and over. you refuse to answer… yes or no…
And please, live me alone with this stupid no Q&A type of stuff. I know, it goes well in Scientology but otherwise ridiculous and robotic.
gODd, did you just try to implant a “forgetter” into Elizabeth?
Valkov old pussy cat, I have been thinking about you wondering how you were and there you are… I must have picked up your communication.
Valkov, not only that, I am implanted by god, but being told to do “book one auditing”, get education, plus, my sanity has been questioned… and everything else in connection about me.. Let me tell you I am having fun.. good to see you smiling face 🙂
hehe
Thanks for writing this Geir.
CHRIS, thank for the vote of confidence, but let you in a little secret…Your confidence in me is the refaction of your own… HEHE baby. keep on trucking…
This is the first of 6 parts video “Help and Admiration Are The Keys” by Phil Spickler. The rest of the videos can be found on Phil’s website, where you could comment them. All comments, by the way, are forwarded to Phil’s e-mail and by his words “really warmed his hart”. So those who enjoy watching them – please, comment. It may also motivate Phil to make more videos, sharing his memories with us, which are truly a treasure.
(I post it here as I feel it matches the subject of exchanging in few aspects).
If you find my comment inappropriate, please, delete.
Very good point.
I highly recommend ‘The Gift’ by Lewis Hyde. It changed my views on giving and ownership.
bren
http://www.amazon.com/The-Gift-Creativity-Artist-Vintage/dp/0307279502
My first thought on this was “Hey, now we’re talking …”, partly because I’ve never been comfy about mixing business with religion …
I’ve always been more in favour of the words of our poet Øverland who in the 30s wrote a poem where he states : “… thou shalt not sell truth, it’s not yours” …
But I get of something else as well, that Hubbard might be implying that what he himself was giving was of 4th condition. I don’t know, and I might be wrong as I only read the words. Please correct me if I am wrong.
But get a feeling of something else in Geir’s wording, of disappointment, of frustration, maybe even anger, and it kind of gives me a sad feeeling … But again I may be wrong …
There is beautiful movie called “Pay it forwards” that outlines Geir’s idea very well. OK, it is something of a teardistiller (hope the term is right, Google said it was …), and it does NOT have a happy ending, but the general idea comes very well thru’ …
“Teardistiller?” hahaha! I never heard that word, but its meaning comes through clearly! You are so right — that is a beautiful movie. Not a happy ending? Well, as a human animal I have a built-in genetic paradigm that I sum up as “eat and be eaten.” This is what I see around me in the physical universe, not in a good or bad way but just as THE way of this universe. Your movie touches on this and touches on the anguish we choose based on this old paradigm. When I seek a more enlightened, more exterior way of thinking, my paradigm changes. Your movie was beautiful for its ability to show me another more enlightened paradigm — One with character and integrity. It shows a person with a paradigm, a belief in a higher path that was unshaken by the harsh world. It was not a happy in the sense of giddy, but I think we both agree it was happy ending because of the lesson taught and the hope in the possibility of a world with less anguish and more decency.
Hah, I knew I couldn’t trust Google. I tried to translate that Frenchman’s wave as well and the answer was, well really off, waaaaay off … 🙂
No the movie doesn’t have have a happy ending in the trad meaning as most people will choose to see a killing and dying of a young boy as something sad … … but I guess we’ll all learn somewhere along the line whether it really is or not …
Yeah, that was a pretty extreme way of making the point, but real. I wanted the young boy’s point to win hearts and minds — immediately. He did change hearts and minds, maybe even his assassin’s — eventually. Maybe the little gangster kid woke up to what occurred and was changed later . . . I hoped.
But Tor, you understood the Frenchman’s wave, right? You’ve seen it over and over… maybe call it something else. It is the dismissal gesture done by turning the face away and flipping the back of the hand horizontally and rotating at the wrist as if to say “go away.” It is a snotty gesture. hahaha!
thanks chris, i never new that… hehehe… i did not realised in fact i have restimulated people that much… do you know what dogs do when they find something?
Ah, thanks Chris, no I didn’t understand and I hate it when I don’t …
But now I know, thanks again. 🙂
@Elizabeth : I’ve actually read your comments every now and then, first mainly because of your name, it seems soooo norwegian, but now I know better.
Unfortunately I do not get much out of them except than realizing your reality is very different from mine, yours is one it seems that I am not ready for and may never be.
However what you describe reminds me of the Dreamers in “The Wheel of Time” by Robert Jordan, and the Dreamwalkers …
Hi, my last name is Norwegian… inherited from my ex-husband… Thank you ever so much for writing, it really make lot of sense that it do not make much sense what you read …and why is that? It really shows just how different each individual universe is.
My journey my PATH is unique… so as is your own real to you…. I truly understand that….. but being different is not bad… nothing wrong with it… just different from other realities… Just think if you would write here your adventures-cognitions from sessions they would be so un-real to all of us but fun would be reading because we could say… aha… he sees this or that and reading your reality would expand our own…
And I admit, to me here being here never have been real and it has been a totally alien, foreign and very distant thing, a bad experience.. To me being here like I was in a bad dream a heavy nightmare and I could not wake up …
.I have written before that I been here on Earth very short period of time… Now people do talk of beings aliens who come from other Planets and get stuck here . I am just one of those beings… simple as that… no mystery.. Yes and my reality is more in the line of the magical kingdoms… fairies… faraway places… flowers of unimaginable beauty. Music I hear which can’t be perceived with ears and I see things which can’t be seen with the eyes….now that explains the theory: existence, presence of universes within universes…..
Thank you again to take time to write… you are a very kind gentle soul…. There is sense of humor, there is music and harmony in your universe….very nice…
Tor Ivar, I put these under your name… I really loved your communication.. expressing, most of the time I dont ring bells…hehehe… love it. Here is a different view point why.. i could write few dozen more but … no reason to do so now… Yet you had reality.. “dreamwalker” I need to read that book. So you had a reality on dreamwalker…. than you have on me too.. you have my best…
This is part of the communication with Marildi, we are friends from way back… it is at her recommendation I have not closed my blog and keeping to her advice I continue posting here and in Silvia’s blog… since I really wanted to stop sometimes back… because of her logical explanation ‘’the why” I continue….
Elizabeth, sorry for answering so late – I have had a lot to do and…
The email you wrote here is exactly the kind of thing that I think you should write, whether on your blog or on Geir’s or wherever. Simply your own insights – and let those who can duplicate do so. Some will, some won’t. Don’t assume that everybody is necessarily so keyed into implants that they can’t perceive truth – it can happen. And it has happened from your posts many times, as you know.
Personally, I’ve learned that if I have too much attention on how my comments will be received it affects how and what I write and in fact those kind of comments are not the ones that interest people. A simple, true comm communicates, is what I have found – and I’m still working on it too. It’s like that Scn saying, “Must have, can’t have”. Ha ha! Foot bullet every time.
Actually, if I were you with your superior ability to find answers in solo’ing, I would take this subject up in session. It seems like you have been wrestling with it for a while, which may mean that there’s something you haven’t spotted that when you do it will guide you. But, I’m sure I don’t need to tell you that..
Fascinating what you wrote about the Crab Nebula, the magical universe and the truth about spirituality – and the new heavy game that came into vogue. Yes, my dear, your emails to me are a good example of just speaking your truth – you may actually have convinced me that the world is round. 🙂 But seriously, I’ve told you before – scientists should take notes from your posts.
Off to bed now. Love, M
Elizabeth; Just had a new thought….. I think it fits in…. my reality is so new…. example from the past here on EARTH : earth flat=everybody new that and believed it… than some poor idiot said the earth is round…[[I wonder why he was not skinned alive right on the spot, or the earth opened up and have swallowed him, the cheek of the man!]] well lots of people had trouble with that….
now the scientist discovered that every item regardless meat body or cow flower etc… is made out of the same material and there is no solidity, that all what being seen Perceived with the eyes is only a illusion…
My reality is aligned with those new finding of the scientists in totality….since that what I too have find in sessions.
Also some of my views-reality are so new and they are expressed for the first time here in mine or Silvia’s and Gear’s blog that people truly think—some of them, that I am off my rocker…. gone nuts, or never been sane… live in the dream world etc… every one of those considerations are right from the perspective of the reader
Some of my reality never ever been expressed here…… talked about or written, now this makes lots of sense to me why is the heavy attack from some and others reading my writing get totally keyed out…. walk on clouds and sing Hosanna… Hallelujah!!!
[By the way I never studied in these life the Philosophers writing..]
No matter what I write is mine….
For other reason this new reality don’t make any sense and recognised because it is not in the implanted material… As you can see I have reached the thinking=knowing level-reality of other universe like what we has in my home base the CRAB NEBULA…. what a win…
Some of those people who become angry-upset about these thoughts are the same who opposed this line of thoughts than in Crab Nebula… you see the part of the collapse of the Nebula Empire was that the Dark forces, aberration moved in….. and overwhelmed the magical universe… the truth about spirituality etc….. because the HEAVY stuff was new to that sectors people wanted it, it was a huge having-ness, the stimulation of the new game taken over… become into vogue.
But after a while that stimulation is unbearable for the spiritual entity… so wants to get out… reaching for spirituality once more… the heavy energy flows went out of vogue…. For many they have lost their meaning…importance.. Because they have realized the MEST is confining..
Thank you so much, both your replies are really kind. However, if you haven’t started on “The Wheel of Time” trhen I should warn you, it’s a 13-novel-series plus a prequel … 😀
I’ve read it, …. maybe 5 times … 😀 But it might be worth it.
Do any of you two (or any other here) know of a mind trick to avoid letting temperatures touch you ? If you read those books you’ll find out why I’m asking … 😀
But, sorry to say, my session-adventures aren’t much, simply because I’ve never had any …
My experiences are though like me having had “flashbacks” (some years old experience flash by in review, seeing the whole stuff from outside) that has made understand things differently …
Also I’ve happened to dream things and then one day find I’m in the middle of that “episode” I was dreaming 6 months or more ago … I guess this is one of the few place where I could write that without getting all those explantaions-of-Deja-Vu from a whole bunch.
And I can see stuff in peoples, only like getting an idea of the persons mental side from the “light”, AND very often when some woman I know is pregnant, I can see it in her eyes …
The last thing I should mention is that you at least one place on your blog refer to it “being easy to be a gipsy” – to see the future. You see my mother always insisted her family had gipsy blood and thus had some “capabilities”. This is of course close to superstition, unless, one might believe that gipsies have there own learnings or “naturals” … Me I don’t know, but it’s an interesting thought …
“Also I’ve happened to dream things and then one day find I’m in the middle of that “episode” I was dreaming 6 months or more ago”
Tor, I’ve also had this occurring all of my life. It is kind of reverse of deja vu – I call it pre-cognition. For me, if you break up daily life like a movie strip, then select one frame of it, this is what I recognize when it occurs. But the way you described it dreaming about it maybe months in advance then catching up to the moment and recognizing it… Perfect. I should say that this has not served me in a useful way except to lend me the sense that time must not be linear from front to back as is usually thought…
Oh, how good of you to say, Chris, I’ve neither found any way to use …
The most weird thing with was realizing it had to be real. Because you dream something, remember the dream for some oddity, whatever, just someone doing something you wouldn’t expect from that person.
Then umpteen months or whatever later, you suddenly sit there and remember that dream you had, because etc…, ’cause now you’re in it and you know what’s gonna happen the next 60-90 seconds or more … 😛
🙂
Tor Ivar, please don’t read between the lines[ at list I hope you won’t.] invitation for communication was not by “female” to snare-capture a pollinator , since I am out of that game has been for long time and No female existing here… those are considerations of certain behaviour, performance routines and projections of pictures…etc…
My man eating day has been over since 95… hehehe… now I am just a gentle, kind, sweet… old thing without any fangs with gray hair who is puttering in her flower garden and knitting sock for the pixies and gnomes… my god I am good! so write!
.
LOL! Yes, you are very harmless!
you old goat, your hide is to tough to eat.. remember i dond have teeth… but plastic whatever.. . is your pool in use by now? it is cold and wet here in the mid 50’s…. about me being harmless.. now dear [old lady talk] i have had more O/W ‘s pulled because that is my very favorite thing to do… has the withold been missed? that question leads one right to the spot in the so called INNER UNIVERSE where all the didden -secrets are put under the heavy locks of ” I dont remember” etc… But in that hidden universe are the real you, ones very sacred self….. now to demolish that monster… most fun. and one really finds out what makes the SELF=ones universr tick…
Pool? Shelley and I worked our fingers to nubs and put ourselves to bed with epoxy fumes last Fri, Sat, and Sunday nights! Don’t say I’m not a fun date! But our concrete swimming pond is ready to put in water tomorrow night… (the paint needed 5 days to cure . . . ) It is right now 110F (>43C) in the shade of my back yard right now… (I said right now twice trying to make it very important). We are in hiding mode like pioneers on a too hot planet trying not to be seared by the star-blast. Global warming? I will just move a kilometer per year north and I’ll be alright for a thousand years. hahaha
110, and here in the 50’s… my poor plants… the flowers just rut off after few day rain… but the garden still beautiful 7 out of 14 variety of cemetis is in bloom…. some of the roses, and irises, pansies, etc… i go seat out there wrapped in blanket…..give me a reality-your on my email…
you are a hot date all right half fried by the heat.. smelly too. yak… she really have to love you….
. . . yup, she loves me a lot! . . . it is not about the money!
Don’t worry, I do not “misinterprete”, AND you do have the first name of my ex ( 😀 ).
… and there is of course some 9 hours and almost 25 years between us … 😀
Tor,
Your point is good.
You should never sell truth.
But you can sell your time.
You can set an example.
You can walk your talk.
You can be a light on to the world.
You can teach. You can preach.
And people will pay for it (your time) , and it should be according to their means.
The only real thing you can sell is your time.
That can be done in different ways:
You can name the price, or you can tell your receiving terminals to decide what it is worth and they can give by donation.
As long as there is a cost to living, a cost to food and housing and cars, taking a trip, a holiday, there usually has to be money and exchange.
It is also true that to whom more is given, more is expected.
It is also true, that as is said in the bible, God sees the poor man’s penny and the rich man’s millions as equal.
When they are each asked to give all, all is equal to all.
In the eyes of the universe, the static, call it what you want, on this subject, all is equal to all.
Similar to the bank seeing everything as A=A=A=A.
So this subject is relative and is often a judgement call with each situation, being best evaluated on it’s own merits.
Dio
Hi Dio
My intention wasn’t really to state that noone should sell truth, more to explain my enthusiasm for Geir’s words.
But as you say, all you really can sell is your time. Trying to live acc to my paradigm, I have sold my time doing labour and then tried to leave it to my spare time to teach (where or if I can).
To walk one’s talk is more of a full-time occupation I guess, but I seriously hope I haven’t been preaching too much …
TOR Ivar. you got me! now dont make me read all 13 novels to find out. I am more than interested much more than you can imagen. ”Do any of you two (or any other here) know of a mind trick to avoid letting temperatures touch you ?”” you can write to me too at endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com please i must KNOW!!! my parts which are clad in unmentionable are frozen permenentally and so far i cant find the reason why.. thyroid cant be the only reason..
Elizabeth:
Regarding your cold temperature problem:
Your intentions or train of thought on this matter is wrong.
First:
Educate your self by reading this website:
http://learninggnm.ca/
Cold body temperature means you have become effect of something in your life.
It could also be a restimulation.
It could be due being effect of conflict.
Could be karmic.
Could be genetic.
Could be any number of things.
The bottom line is you have become very much effect.
It is kind of like a slight degree of paralysis, like emotional paralysis, or some degree of emotional shutdown.
Could be a degree of Endocrine gland paralysis or shut down. Not totally, but likely to some degree.
It will likely be on some level that is not readily detected by your awareness.
It could be well covered by counter efforts, counter emotions, misemotions, and counter thoughts, counter postulates, or something, so that it is not readily visible to you.
It would help to be totally honest and impartial and take an honest look at everything that has happened to you, in the last while.
It would help to take a look, if possible, not from or through your identities, valances, ego, and the likes, but from an exterior, bird on the wire viewpoint at the track for the last while.
But you need a fair bit of theta horsepower to do that.
About as much as solo auditing.
Or doing the “Handbook for Preclears” process.
Plus an education of the data on the website I provided.
Dio
Thanks… WOW… I am in the need to start all over again. and there goes hundred thousands auditing hours one life times work down the drain.. bloody hell
DIO all yor points have been in session in dozen different ways.. Could be a body problem since the body was born mostly dead? cord around the neck buttom first? not enough oxigen in the brain or blood? and no nutrion enough for the growing body to develope normaly? I apricate you reaching out to help, i truly doo..
dio.. horse power.. i love that… hehehe.. have you any idea what will power one has to solo audit to dedicate ones whole life to fallow ones dream? To go through hell and heaven in order to demolish all the obsticles in the way to achieve that dream? one need more than horsepower… much more..
DIO.
“It will likely be on some level that is not readily detected by your awareness.”
you can bet your last loony on this {canadian dollar with a loons pincture] cant be in any other way… and the list you made above is just that differnt awarness levels.
I have not pulled in the right item so i am not aware what causes that cold… but i neve have given up.. and i wont… it will blow same as “fear” has among the many other things…
Ah, but I will disappoint you then, as I do not know the trick myself. It’s mentioned several times in the series so I wanted to know if this is more than fiction. Someone with some tough army training might know maybe …
But I’ll write you about the dreamwalkers … 🙂
No disappointment or anger – merely an ascension to a new level 🙂
Fine, then I was wrong ! 🙂
Tot Ivar… you are a hell of a nice person… not person.. being.. Your energy flows are lovely one can float on them like being in the summer sky high up and traveling with the bit of white fluff and looking down seeing the summer medows bellow…
the only reason the gipsy can read the future… is just understanding the persons energy flows same as you can see if the woman has in new body growing inside her. it is a natural ability to know-read =understand the energy-flows=pictures we all project… or represent in tha momet of creation… you have retained your ability. wonderfull. love it
🙂
It dawned on me just y’day that I really should thank Geir for what he is giving only by running this blog. I believe this is a feeling I share with others, but I would like to do it on my own behalf.
This is really a place where open-mindedness is valued and promoted, and it also does
quite much to de-mystify more “odd” experiences.
… and just to bring up Scn (which by popular opinion in Norway is an “isn’t-that-a-kind-of-dangerous-thing ?), also this is de-mystified to intelligible stuff …
I still have doubts about the CoS and how things are practiced etc., but that’s another story that I’ll elaborate ät a another time maybe …
I admit that I at times have been kind of fishing for Geir’s positive feedback, and I cannot promise that I’ll get rid of that completely, but I am also trying to break it down to the “Do I have something to add to this that might be of value for Geir or the others I know are reading this blog …
So Geir, thank You.
Oh, it is I who should thank you. I regard you and the others who spend time contributing here as my good friends. I am continually inspired by all of you. You enrich my life.
+1
Sir ! Thank You, sir ! 😀
My view on Scn : (Please remember my hands-on-experience is ZERO, nil !!!)
What I have been able to figure out is that part of it is a kind of mental training or therapy if you like, going through previous experiences to emotionally process them and thus understanding them intellectually and so remove their impact on your life in general.
There may be more to it, but of that I know nothing, really NOTHING.
Personally I have experienced myself that an emotion experience can do bad things with one’s psyche and thus your body.
Also I have experienced that remembering (bringing back) such experiences so that you can go thorugh and analyze what is happening, so you understand it intellectually, can remove those things to some extent (from nil to infinite) from your psyche.
I believe that part of this will depend on being able to go through so many times that the emotional part of it becomes ignorable or erased.
I have NOT experienced any change in body from such, but I admit that this doesn’t mean it that can’t happen.
Anyway, dealing with people’s psyche IS a slippery road (if not a ski trip in loose snow in an area where avalanches are know to happen), and I believe it requires an enormous respect and CARE (not the least) for the person one treats. And still I guess there will be cases of misstepping.
So be it, for an adult knowing what this is about and still choosing this freely, it is fair enough. Some people go to “shrinks” and the same stuff might happen there, I’m sure.
Now giving a tool for this to people who you cannot necessarily vouch for (on the care part especially), and in addition is coupling this to these peoples’ self-interest in the sense of earning money on it, then this gets dubious IMHO. I KNOW and HAVE SEEN what people ARE willing to do for money (Please read the uppercases in this text as being in bold text, it is to underline what I mean, not to scream it out)
TBC.
Comm and acking…
Elizabeth,
Your post:
DIO “That is especially where I decide that it is better not to respond, to not get contaminated.”
You are on this planet and you believe you arte not contaminate????? I am glad you believe in you own jokes… goooooood one.
Your reply is pretty aberrated nonsense, not useful for anything.
It is utter nonsense.
[ And I offer a short digression from the main subject of this post and it is:
And I will have you know that I do not believe anything. As I have mentioned before, believing is a function of those still very low on the scale of intellectual and spiritual evolution and do not know how to know.
On the low end believing is nothing more than a confession of ignorance, on the upper end believing is intellectual ineptness and intellectual dishonesty. ]
Back to my main post on comm and acking:
The following can be placed on the scale of human evaluation as in the Science of Survival:
I find that with some people, I comm and the comm gets higher and higher theta.
I get a high, I can feel better or even great for a few days after.
I am better for the experience.
Some comm, the average comm is just normal average comm with no great effect.
Then there is the comm with certain kinds of people, evidently enthetans, where with whom if I get into comm with, I find I get stupid, and go crazy.
The event is so aberating and painful, I want to throw my hat on the ground and stomp on it scream and pull my hair out.
Their insanity, their entheta is so intense, so pervasive, so contagious that it acts like a blanket that is thrown over me or like I get sprayed with a skunk.
It can happen on a one on one encounter or over the phone or over the computer and email and blogs.
These enthetans are so aberrated and ignorant they are only intelligent enough to argue to defend their insanity, their aberrations, their stupidity, their ignorance, their case, their overts, and the like, and their right to be and remain that way, and even impose or and contaminate others. Like a dog has right to pee on everyone’s tires.
They are not intelligent enough, not sane enough, not educated enough, to form a meaningful opinion on anything, nor have a meaningful comm with never mind an argument.
Getting into comm with this class of entities or even getting near their universe is like getting sprayed with a skunk.
It can take several days of hard work to remove this entheta.
Like a dog removing the smell from being sprayed with a skunk.
So yes, I will operate on the data, that I will not receive or give comm unless I judge it worthy of my time and evaluate the risk.
I find your comm that way, and also Vinays, especially so.
I offer no apology, that is just the fact.
When I get into your or Vinay’s sphere of influence, or get on the way of your flows, or line of fire, it takes me several days to recover.
I will do everything within my means not to compromise my integrity or risk my sanity and well being.
So yes, I can be in this world and not be contaminated to a very large degree, and probably even all, as I do more work on my bridge.
This is not an issue of respect or no respect or love or no love.
That is just the way it is.
I can love you and him as long as you and him are over there and I am over here and I, as much as possible, do not let our universes interfere with each other.
Similar to what Hubbard wisely said: some people do best on their own time , space, and volition.
If such people like you and Vinay want my help, and if I am able to do so, I will do everything within my means to do so, but I will also do everything within my means not to become effect. I will only do so if I can remain at cause.
Like has been said before, a healer should never go into a negative environment unless he or she has intention to heal. Otherwise stay out of there.
Dio
Dio, you have made it clear a number of times that you consider yourself superior to “certain kinds of people” who are “aberrated and ignorant” (quoting you) and that you do not wish to contaminate yourself by communicating with them. You do have a right to your opinions about people but that gives you no reason or right to viciously insult them – and to go out of your way to do so.
In a previous post, you made an analogy, something about crossing the street to stay away from people you consider inferior, rather than encounter them. I don’t see you doing that. You seem to be quite willing to encounter them and to communicate – but only for the purpose of making harsh criticism that achieves no good purpose. Such comm is essentially no different from the very thing you are complaining about – it is entheta. And why would your entheta be any less contaminating than anyone else’s?
You are calling others aberrated because of what you judge to be entheta. Turning it around, is it your own aberration that makes you so vulnerable and so easily and badly restimulated? Is it your own “stupidity, ignorance, case or overts”? (Again, these are your words.) It should work both ways – if those judgments apply to others’ entheta (so-called), they should apply to yours too.
Geir has asked for courtesy on his blog and yet you have gone well beyond just being discourteous and into the area of un-called for, unnecessary insults. I like many of your posts and feel you often make a good contribution, but this kind of thing is so not okay.
+1 Marildi… So very well articulated.
dio, you have a huge MU what is OT what is theta… theta do not have “High”‘s or lows if you feel the high you must be taking drugs…. by the way you can only way insult me by ‘LOVING ME, and any help from you would be just that.. on action from your side would be contamination toward any bodies space..
Geir, I am in agreement with you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with just giving with no expectation of getting back. If more people just un-selfishly gave and helped others, we would have a far, far better world and life for all. Actually, most folks get back a great feeling of well-being when they un-selfishly help and give. I do think that LRH was talking more about the other side, that is to say, those who “take take take” and never give back. Increasingly I have found the Church of Scientology doing this, asking for more money, more money and then…. more money without giving back and in many cases actually flowing back NEGATIVE actions, like vicious ethics cycles. Back in the “old days” (the 70s) this wasn’t the case with the public (though staff were certainly still short changed in those days). LRH also does make a valid point I think that you can hurt people by CONTINUING to give, give, give to them and never ask them to contribute as well. We see this with families who are on welfare for a long time or children who are given everything and indulged for years and never asked to make a contribution themselves. I think Ron was to an extent talking about these factors when he was talking about exchange. Though again, pure giving for the joy of giving and helping and delighting other beings is in itself a wonderful activity, agreed.
Joe,
On the subject of giving, there are many levels, for a lack of a better word.
Like there are right ways and wrong ways to do everything and endless degrees inbetween.
Ant, you and others have complained about those who take, take, take, take, and never give back.
That action called freeloading falls under this category too.
The generational welfare thing can also be listed here.
As people who know some about scientology and the bank, you should also know or realize, that there are reasons or causes for this.
On one hand some are just aberrations,
Like someone could be stuck on winning, someone could be stuck on losing and taking.
The competent and properly educated auditor will realize this and be able to correct it and replace it with proper operating data.
In terms of the generational welfare matter, it is due to ignorance, which means a lack of work ethics and lack of marketable skills. A lack of social skills could also be part of the problem.
Proper training will solve these problems.
So when I see a person experienced in scientology complaining about these, I see something wrong.
I see that he does not understand the mind, how it works, how it gets screwed up, how to fix it, and rehabilitate the individual to be more able.
A person is only as good as they have been bred, brought up, and trained.
It is all data, and can be manipulated like data in a computer.
The “wild card” in this equation is the entities own free will.
You can’t help someone who does not want to be helped.
And generally speaking, a competent scientologist knows this and can fix it in those who want to.
If a scientologist does not see this, understand this, then he has flunked and flunked badly.
The worlds richest man Carlos Dios, (I think his name is) ( and who lives in Mexico) said in response to how he sees all the poor people ( a question asked by Larry King on CNN) in his country, … I see them as opportunity.
Another aspect in regards to the people who do not want to be helped.
I doubt if that is an absolute.
It all comes down to ARC and gradient.
If the ARC is high enough and the gradient is low enough or right, anything can be done.
This is where the true Christian ( and likely those of other fundamental religions ) have a better handle of such ARC (for example like mother Theresa) who have enough of the right kind of knowledge, attitude, love and ARC to connect to the those kinds of people and get their ARC then cooperation and respect.
If those kinds of people would do the bridge, then you would have the most ideal and most able healer.
The other aspect of giving as is mentioned is the law of return.
I see this as a part of the law of physics; for every reaction, there is a equal and opposite reaction.
But on the meta physical level it goes much further.
Fundamental religions and others call this thithing and the law of ten fold ( or more) return.
I have met, read about and heard about people who have this system down pat.
As for myself, I am still working on it.
Dio.
The church has the whole concept of exchange inverted at this point. I remember seeing an email from a kool-aider who said something to the effect, “It is vital that we all exchange in abundance with the church.” In other words, deliver more money and contribution to the church on top of the already high high prices. By this understanding, the customer LRH talks about in exchange level 4, the one who orders a regular diamond but gets a higher quality blue diamond, would be paying blue diamond prices for a piece of glass.
Good observation. It’s weird that so many fail to see this.
After some slightly harsh exchanges on this thread, I just wanted to let you in on my most recent project; Getting better at being kind.
You are really cool. 🙂
Since the start of reading this most interesting thread for the first time, is a good time to give my 2 cents worth about the giving or exchange theme, since dinner is waiting.
One can give the Granting of Beingness to another or others with no expected return. Also flowing Affinity or love without exchange. I thank isene for his gracious allowing, not seem on any blogs I know yet. You are more than kind, sir.
Nice to read your post Lizabeth
Hi sweet pea, i am glad you found this post 🙂 not only found it but like it too!!
Thanks!
Elizabeth, I am glad that you suggested it to me and said so many good things about it. Yes really enjoying it, thanks.
lisa
Nice to be here Chris.
. 🙂 .
Geir, You might know Mel’s internets sight by now, once I had the pleasure viewing the deep space in their drive way one summer evening through huge lelescope and the tour was given by him that was when they still lived in Edmonds WA. I still have hanging two of his photos which he has framed and given me as a present. I am sure the telescope for you is a trill to have.
Hyperion Images | Images from Deep Space | Mel Martin
http://www.azdeepskies.com/hyperion_images/ – Cached
This page contains a collection of images taken with the new Hyperion astrograph, a 12.5″ scope designed to produce stunning images of the universe around …
NGC3521 | Images from Deep Space | Mel Martin
http://www.azdeepskies.com/hyperion_images/ngc3521.html – Cached
Spiral galaxy NGC 3521 is a mere 35 million light-years away, toward the constellation Leo. Relatively bright in planet Earth’s sky, NGC 3521 is easily visible in …
Those are excellent images. Some day… perhaps some day I will do images like that.
But first I want to control my new telescope with my HP-41 (mostly because nobody have done that before)
As you know by now i dont know much about machinery.. but that evening was a trilling adventure… And also you know I dont believe in the concept of “Impassible” So I know what you want you will achieve.. thank You Geir.. and the angels are smiling!!! where is my gun, i will shoot those bogger!! {here reading, Rafael will faint!] I wonder if you have any idea just how much i love this adventure…. No words for that to express…
What I find interesting, one concet received sort of opens avenues up many different ones and i can walk into any of those and contenue creating..The sceenery just unfolds…..
Dear Elizabeth, 🙂 , you are capable to shoot flowers only.
Not Ok to finding out my deepest secrets, But Rafael, I can shoot flowers I cant even pick flower off, they are living enteties and the flower is their home their body and the fairies live there too they have a connection. you see the fairy spirit takes the energy flow from the flower and makes-mocks-up body out of it. So that body-mock up only last till there is that flower blooms.. nice, yes? wonderland our Paradise is…
Dear Elizabeth, nice 🙂
Here is something I would like to share with you. Ever since I can remember as a child in the evening as I closed my eyes prior to going into sleep in that private inner universe at that moment I have seen an explosion as it spread across the infinite., I have seen it to the tiniest detail.. and each night I had relieved it, in my privacy . I never known what that explosion was, until I have seen the picture of the Crab Nebula some years back, It was then I realised what I have experienced …. I have sobbed in finding that reality… I knew it than my home has been there…
I know.
…HOW? are you sooping into mine same as i do in yours? really!!!It seems there is no privacy in this universe! I need to build some walls, thinking in the line of Great Wall of China…. Ehh… won’t work… But really how did you see it?
not thinking here, but the coin fell, so you only can know if you have had the same experience.. brother, do we ever live in each others back pocket..
Me too. Though, I never identified the source of that image.
“home sweet home” kid… I be going back there…or I am there, that depands on the view point.
Yes, home is where the heart is, and friendship is a guest. A book, a fire, a handclasp; a place where souls can rest.
“Home, home again, I like to be here when I can.
When I come home cold and tired it’s good to warm more bones beside the fire
Far away across the field tolling on the iron bell,
calls the faithful to their knees to hear the softly spoken magic spell …”
My favourite Pink Floyd piece … 🙂
“Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day.” 🙂
… and it’s ” … my bones ” (blaaah, I those typos) , not ” … more bones … ” 😛
Chris about education,,, thank you … it made me do some “thinking”
I been assessing different viewpoints-reality on education… it is a game condition same as any other. Some of the folks who comment here snubbed me-my comments because I am lacking missing education… Their reality what is education is different from mine….. very different… I am fully aware if one wants something-achieve something needs to have education on that field etc… that is the game- exchange something for something….
But being educated is learned activities… what one have learned-learning has been somebody else’s knowledge, which becomes ones, the learner; the pupils knowledge by agreement…
Here is the thing: learning is a ‘memory activity” here I bringing up my-self as a example.: I can’t learn, I don’t have memory thing which can store the read information.: I am very well read but can retain..
So I can’t quote… feedback, relay the information what I have read learned from other. So it is in sense in comparison to others I am definitely not a educated person… hehehe… but Hell, what I know and relay-communicate, write about is all original -first-hand knowledge based on my cognitions, I have not copied my information-my knowledge from any one…
So being snubbed by those who can beautifully quote others but never had an original thought idea of their own.. Well, that pretentiousness –considerations are pure bank stuff.. and I really don’t feel insulted, not at all.. In fact I am complimented because the group agreement can’t confront different reality, therefore that is a indicator I am on the right track… No longer need that group agreement and still know I do have knowledge regardless…
Once more thank you, I am learning every day… to me that is my reason to be here in this planet….learning from the action-reactions of all the players…. There is no such a thing is bad or losing…. How could…. when I create it all?
Actually, Elizabeth, true learning goes well beyond mere memorization. In a Student Hat lecture the point is made that learning has to go up to the level of Understanding – and that means making it your own, seeing for yourself the reality or the truth of it. Once you have reached that level, you can then move up to the higher level – which is Judgement.
You have kindly complimented me at times on my ability to “assess data”, as you worded it – well, when I can do that I believe it’s because of study (whether from books or from others in life) that leads to understanding and after that comes some ability to assess or to judge. Just wanted to mention this.:)
you right my dear as always, i am learning how to express better what i think in writting.. my writting sometimes its contence is like a swiss cheese, occasion i re-read it later and it sure dont sound like what i wanted to say…
Ha ha! I know what you mean. Sometimes I read my comment – maybe right after I post it – and wish I could rewrite it. We just need to keep it up and with practice it will get better. (But now you know why I write a lot of p.s.’s :))
I knew you understand what i mean.. by the way swiss cheese is not my favorite.. the wholes dont have much taste to them… hehehe.. i hope we have agreement on that?. love the game.. .:) the baby birds-crows came out fort the first time today.. and had their first flight.. wabbly…. one flew into the wire fence and was hanging there for its dear life.. the parents went into panic…. but they are back in their nest safe now.. all is well ….
Understanding through education brings me closer in every respect to a datum. Education is a process of learning. Depending on the quality of the data being learned, a person might be better off or worse off for the effort. This is not a slam at education because education if only the process of learning. Being informally educated myself, I promote education but we need to not give it credit for purposes that it doesn’t innately have such as critical thinking, understanding truth, etc.,.
Tor, the body has the difference… not you and I, for the being years dont count.. there is no such a think as time… there is a consideration and millions of agreements piled up on it that here on EARTH wrinkled aged body is no longer beautiful therefore it belongs 6″ underground..
Only young fresh firm meat is desirable and pleasurable to look at. and handle…Well Hell, those agreements are so solid it is almost written in granite. in my reality the bodies have they use… and mine used only for very limited activities.. . you may call me Erzsebet too. if you like.
Erzsebet is fine, that’s the hungarian version isn’t it ? Is the phrase “Er-” expressed “El-” by the way ? I do believe the “zs” is a soft “s” right, what the german call a “sharp s” 😀 . You see I’m really a lingo-freak so I like to pick up whatever I can … 😀
Hungarians like to role, crunch their words, as in my name, z and s is made into one letter zs and the r.. rolled hard… unless one can hear how it sounds can’t be explained . we also combine n and y =ny ….. l and y= ly…… g and y= gy …..s and z=sz … also the same letters used separately there is over 40 in the alphabet every letter pronounced as we say it so spelling is not a issue.. not in need..
The OP stimulated (restimulated?) an amazingly careening set of comments.
Personally I think the OP is perfectly well in accord with and expresses some ideas similar to LRH’s statement of the true Cycle of Action as being Create-create-create-create, and at some point of your own choosing, Cease creating.
Oh gee, there I go again……
LRH taught that outflow is holier than inflow and that seems right to me. He taught that a being doesn’t need to inflow anything. I don’t know how that became so reversed when it comes to his church. The church seems to think like a black hole with an ever-widening event horizon. Maybe the ruination of LRH’s church could be summed up in its unwillingness to exchange with its environment.
Or simply “th unwillingness and the ensuing inability to Give”
Yes, thinking about that – or was it the inability and ensuing failed purpose unwillingness to give? This routinely occurs with staff.
Chris:
“DM was raised in a broken and utterly dysfunctional way. Like a street urchin fighting for morsels, he learned the school of hard knocks as a young boy, and since he surely didn’t attend or benefit from any type of formal education. I knew a DM years ago and I can tell you with certainty that DM didn’t start out to wreck Scientology. Scientology wrecked him by systematically infusing him with weird and wrong notions of managing others in and environment of ” ‘might’ making immediately ‘right’,” and by flowing him too much power that he was too young and too ill equipped to handle. Sitting at the knee of LRH, he was witness to a completely wrong example of how to make people better. He watched carefully how LRH did not practice what he preached and this is the reason that he hasn’t been in session for decades. Now through ignorance of any better system and left to fall back to his own devices, you can see what type of “Lord of the Flies” organization that he has built. At this point in time, it appears to me that he has been operating strictly on “motivators” for a couple decades, getting worse, and with very little free Theta left. He is utterly a broken person flailing about and punishing in every direction. His demise is certain, but it was the Sea Org, and public Scientologists and Scientology who failed HIM as well as the Church and, well, maybe that was the predilection for Scientology from the start. The writing was on the wall while Hubbard still held the reins. DM is HIS product. Scientology will fade from a little fringe group at its height to an even wispier little fringe group in the future years. Will it disappear utterly? I don’t know but it so totally could. A “true” Scientologist behaves like a degraded being who thinks they are being a superior being. It is upside down and reversed. They are just taught to cling to that “self” of a superior being on a superior track to a superior goal and PUSH! AND IT DOESN’T WORK; IT HASN’T WORKED; and IT’S NOT GOING TO WORK IN THE FUTURE. The “selves” participating in and calling themselves Scientologists are not getting better, they are getting more solid.”
I’d say that is a hard-hitiing post right there. And one I actually agree with.
Thank you Geir. My thoughts dwelt on him this week. The concept of personal responsibility is a pervasive concept and if I allow it to do its work, like a computer program running in the background of my mind, it pervades and “locates” every connecting point of me to everything. At every moment, it is processing and locating; and finding every point of attachment of myself to everything. A friend of mine told me that “when a person feels the urge to defend or attack an area then they lose freedom in that area.” Using that one valuable criteria to “mine” for “items” I continually find mental “gold.” That criteria, like a metal detector, exploits inconsistencies in my “sense of responsibility.” Maybe “transcendent exchange” contains the understanding that I am exchanging with myself ultimately. This theory undercuts and explains the good reason for a “Golden Rule.”
Chris and Geir, I can’t help but wonder why you don’t have the same kind of compassion and sympathy and understanding for LRH and the trials and tribulations he had to endure – that you do for DM. Or maybe the question should be why you don’t acknowledge or even see that he was up against anything.
And there is also the point of responsibility – you hold LRH responsible for what happened with Scientology but with DM, the responsibility somehow goes back onto LRH and so-called “Scientology” – the meaning of which you seem to not want to ever differentiate.
I can’t help but get the idea that you both do indeed have an urge to attack LRH and/or Scn and to bring up the subject or jump on that particular bandwagon at little or no “urging” – from the outside, that is. I guess now it’s your turn to evaluate my viewpoints as nothing but an urge to defend LRH and Scn – and I in turn would evaluate that as simply a reflection of your own fixed viewpoints. Amazing, isn’t it? I’m sure the truth is somewhere in between.
Here’s my very short summary:
LRH is ultimately responsible for the creation of the subject and how the church was formed and run until he died. He was responsible for grooming in DM and for allowing him to usurp the power. He was responsible for ousting David Mayo and for the declaring of many very competent people within his organization. He was responsible for creating the enemies of Scientology or to not handle them correctly.
DM has the responsibility for getting into Scientology, for moving through the ranks as to become one of LRH’s poster boys. He was responsible for hijacking the comm line between LRH and the church in LRH’s later days. He is responsible for grabbing the power and for declaring many very competent people within the organization after he took the power position that LRH had.
While LRH was responsible for setting up a military type hierarchical organization, DM is responsible for utilizing that structure to maximize his own position.
In the 50s and 60s, a new movement could come along and be immensely popular without any scientific proof of workability. That does not jive with the general population anymore as mor and more evidence is demanded for workability – with enhanced marketing laws, medical evidence needed for drugs to be produced, science becoming stricter, etc, etc. Scientology will wither without evidence of workability. I do not think it matters that much that DM took over, as I see it as obvious that Scientology would decline from the late 80s given that they continued the charismatic push without evidence backing workability. I don’t think LRH would go the hard route of proving workability had he continued to live and work until he was 100 years old. That is a pity, because only stats and evidence will ultimately prevail in marketing a product.
Each his own responsibility. But to blame DM only and give LRH a green card because of “all he was up against” is faulty/sad/boring/stupid/silly… couldn’t find the right word for just that.
Geir, if you got that I was giving LRH a green card you missed the whole point I was trying to make. My only reason for mentioning “what LRH was up against” was as a comparison to what you guys were doing with DM – and to point out your one-sidedness as… faulty/sad/boring/stupid/silly… or maybe biased? ;).
I don’t know if I agree about proven workability as the only successfuly route. What about the whole alternative health industry – that is extremely successful due to word of mouth alone. Just like Scientology was and may one day be again, once all the alter-is comes off.
There will never be a “cleared earth” if Scientology is only to attract the “alternative crowd”. Nope. marketing a product without evidence of workability is doomed to fail. And why on earth should Scientology not cough up the proof of its workability?
Apart from that; I wasn’t specifically refering to you giving LRH a green card (light green perhaps) – but there are plenty of people doing just that over at Marty’s for instance. That is only damaging the future of Scientology IMO – because assigning correct ownership is key to future survival.
Geir,
There will never be a “cleared earth” if Scientology is only to attract the “alternative crowd”. Nope. marketing a product without evidence of workability is doomed to fail. And why on earth should Scientology not cough up the proof of its workability?
In a way, you make a good point, to a point, Geir.
But there is no consistent evidence that scn works.
If every scientologist is evaluated by road testing, taking him down enough bad roads and bad weather, he will still be proven to be PTS.
He will prove to be PTS , a source of problems, when the time will be to be part of the solution.
Scn helps, but does not “work”.
For whom scn did appear to work, it was some other data and training from outside scn, that made the difference, not scn by itself.
Dio
There is absolutely no problem showing evidence for improvement in social sciences. It’s done all the time.
“And why on earth should Scientology not cough up the proof of its workability?”
Well, perhaps for the same reason that alternative health practitioners and products shouldn’t cough up (or be caught up in) workability. For one thing, they apparently haven’t needed to. For another, it may be a drain of resources that will yield little result, given the world we live in thus far.
Just consider the subject of psi or paranormal events and the fact that science has not – and so far doesn’t seem to likely to –admit that there has been plenty of evidence of the existence of such things. They are protecting their own position and power.
And that is the very reason that LRH said paid no heed to catering to the status quo – it’s just putting energy into something that represents overwhelming odds against you when you only need to get results and the results will speak for themselves.
It seems to me that what is still somewhat of an alternative field of health is fast-becoming the norm – even doctors are jumping on the bandwagon more and more as that is what people have heard about and want. The word has spread.
Apart from all of that, I can’t argue with you about assigning correct ownership. Truth will always prevail, IMHO, and you spoke truth on that one. Actually, my interest is also in truth and when I see it is being sort of twisted (even with just a light red light :D) I tend to want to speak up. 🙂
p.s. By not getting caught up in “workability” I meant “scientifically PROVING workability”.
“Nope. marketing a product without evidence of workability is doomed to fail.”
Hardy har har har! What planet do you live on? Oh yeah, Norway. Obviously not the good ole US of A, where a sucker is born every minute and you can fool all of the people at least some of the time. Come on over and watch the commercials on good ole American TV sometime! Spinning for workability is an art and science over here. It is an ancientmaximof the sales trade that you “sell the sizzle, not the steak”.
The problem begins with defining “workability”, which as far as I can see is all things to all men.
In my view, you, Geir, are proof of the “workability” of scientology. And you didn’t achieve what you did because someone handed you the “proof of workability of scientology”. If you had been waiting for that, would you have done any of the Bridge at all by now?
Valkov, I liked a comment by Maria a while back where she said that “Scientology doesn’t work, people work.” That sums up the reason for the gains that I’ve enjoyed while using it. Today I am a squirrel but am pleased with the progress that I make. After a 15 year hiatus from Scientology, I’ve made the most auditing gains by far over the past two years than all the previous Scientology. The reason for this is that I work at it and I intend to make progress. Today, I’ve settled into a comfortable routine of auditing the inconsistencies of my life as I see them. It is really workable for me and I think it could be for others as well. Take yourself for instance. Even though you claim to have not done much Scientology, I read in your posts a broad breadth and understanding of the subject of Scientology. I also read in your posts a broad breadth of understanding of other disciplines of the mind and spirit. Someone like you who has studied and thought hard about these matters should just push on ahead that last little frontier to become a practicing solo auditor. I really mean it. I wouldn’t mention it if I didn’t read in your posts both the ability and the curiousity to try it. After all, it’s just your mind! What harm can you do to it now?? haha. (serious post with joke at the end)
Marildi:
“Well, perhaps for the same reason that alternative health practitioners and products shouldn’t cough up (or be caught up in) workability. For one thing, they apparently haven’t needed to. For another, it may be a drain of resources that will yield little result, given the world we live in thus far.”
I beg to differ. The main reason why Scientologyhas fought an uphill battle is precisely because it cannot demonstrate concistent workability. It promises and then hope to deliver.
And I belive the reason why the alternative movement has not bothered to prove it’s promoted results is in part that the resiults are indeed lacking.
Geir, I remember being taught in school that chiropractors were quacks – literally taught that. The fact was that they infringed on the territory of the medical profession, which determined to black PR them for that reason. The chiropractors (who were inspired by confidence in what they were doing and by their intent to actually help people) persevered and the day came when even health insurance companies accepted claims for their treatments. That came about for the simple reason that it paid off to do so as it ended up costing those companies far less because certain patients did much better and got well faster than with medical treatment. This is an example of how people at a grass roots level can determine what actually “succeeds”.
And as for other health practices, I don’t want to get off onto too much of a tangent but I could tell you my own and others’ personal stories of how doctors weren’t even able to give a diagnosis, let alone a handling that was more than just masking the symptoms – and after that some nutritionist or naturopath or the like handled the problem fully.
You say that Scientology “cannot demonstrate consistent workability.” Certainly psychology and medicine, or anything else as far as I know, aren’t 100% consistently workable either – far from it. What would you say is the statistical workability of Scn compared with the workability of anything else in the business of helping others? You seem to be implying that Scn compares poorly.
Chiropractors went mainstream due to proof of workability. Very simple.
Scientology compares poorly only with regards to proven workability. Because it flat out refuses to prove itself properly.
If it ever decides to go the route of science, it would at the same time open itself to the practice of continuous improvement, just like science is reaping the benefits of. But that would imply that Scientology as a subject must be open to change, something KSW #1 bars.
Maybe I don’t know what you mean by the “proof of workability” of Chiropractic – like formal studies being done? And if they have been done on chiropractic, when was that – before or after it had already become popular with people and was growing in use?
But as for Scn, I think once again we are using the word differently. You talk about Scn as though the meaning only pertains to the C of S and grant that organization much more importance than I do. I think of Scn as a practice, one that would particularly include the independent field (which isn’t necessarily bound to KSW #1 at all), and I would include in that concept the fact that the C of S itself is fading fast.
But you are probably right that in this day and age it would not be a mistake for studies to be done as to the effectiveness of Scn and in fact would help it tremendously. My original point was just that it may not be completely necessary if Scn (not the C of S) just went about getting stupendous results and did nothing more than that. I can’t imagine that this kind of thing hasn’t happened before, with other products or services, or that it couldn’t happen again.
Marildi, maybe address this as though you were opening a Scientology office in your home town. What would the promotion look like and what would you be comfortable guaranteeing as a result to possible patrons? Maybe in that answer is a key to answering your question about provable results…
Chris, I would never give a guarantee as that would be silly (at best), and not just for Scientology but anything else in a similar field.
My question about provable results had to do with chiropractic, as I think the studies that have been done took place only after it had already gained popularity through word of mouth, and studies took place for that reason.
So how would you feel comfortable promoting your own Scientology office, knowing that patrons will be looking to you directly for satisfaction? What would you feel comfortable promising? You kind of treat my questions as tricks when they are not and I feel that this is something which bears looking at.
Chris, I’m not meaning to be disrespectful – I was actually trying not to be although I had some disagreement about your question. The subject wasn’t about how to promote Scn (except maybe indirectly) so it seemed to me that you must have been going in that direction for some reason – but I don’t know why you wouldn’t just communicate what you have in mind directly.
Sometimes it seems like you are trying to get a point across to me but the way you do it is by asking me questions and it comes across as patronizing somehow – like I wouldn’t duplicate unless you got me to go through it “step by step” or something like that. I could be off base but I don’t see that you do this with others, so there’s something about it that doesn’t right true. Being honest with you. Hope you will do the same.
Alright I understand. I’ll work on that…
Meanwhile, LRH promoted Dianetics as a panacea all the while winking at the FDA disclaimer labels put on emeters as “the government makes us do this (wink-wink). Dianetics really does treat disease but we aren’t allowed to say it does because of the corrupt government that doesn’t want to lose its commissions from the drug companies who don’t want people to get better. Like you, I still have some agreement with things I learned in Scn but the overriding disagreement that I have with the subject is that it and the group that represents it does not deliver what it promises and has wholly lost contact with any aspect of the integrity that it should.
Because of this, I ask how you would promote Scn and Dn in an ethical way that you feel that you could stand behind. I am not against you on this, I am asking because that is where the subject has to go in the future and it’s people like us who need to ask and answer that question. To shift the discussion away from the workability of Scn onto the comparative workability of other subjects is fallacious.
What would you promise in the name of Dianetics and Scientology and feel good about delivering? Again, not a “gotcha” question, it is a real question with a real answer that should be expressed before we could move forward with this notion of transcendant exchange. Ultimately, we are exchanging with ourselves, so what do we want to be when we grow up?
Nice ack, Chris. I knew I could count on you to be in comm. 🙂
On the point of Scn workability, Geir clarified that he wasn’t talking about the workability of Scn but rather its PROVEN workability, so that subject was completed. As far as my comparing it to other subjects, all I was looking at was the possibility that other subjects have been successful without necessarily having proved their workability scientifically. And if they have done so, it would indicate that it can be done – just as it was done by Scientology in the early years.
Also, you wrote, “…the overriding disagreement that I have with the subject is that it and the group that represents it does not deliver what it promises and has wholly lost contact with any aspect of the integrity that it should”.
“The subject” you refer to in the above context is not the subject of Scientology – it’s the subject of the C of S. I can see why you would be down on Scn if you are still largely equating the two and think of the Church as being Scn – which you really seem to be doing, if I may say so. But anyway, all that has been hashed and re-hashed – I think we should just move on.
I see from your last comment to do with the idea of promising “excellent service and results” that we would be in agreement as regards promotion. I would say that type of thing would be perfect, and added to that should be a description of what CAN be achieved (i.e. the stated EPs), and possibly adding that it USUALLY IS achieved – and that would be honest promotion. Probably whatever was done in the early years could be duplicated.
Geir and others have pointed out that people who have had specific things they wanted handled didn’t always get the product, so originated needs and wants should be responded to with something like, “quite possible but we cannot guarantee specific results.”
Fair enough we don’t need to rehash old positions. But you cherry picked my post. More later gotta run.
Correction: By “right true” I meant “ring true”.
Remember that the Director of Processing was made by policy to guarantee “excellent service and results.” This is a guarantee LRH “wrote.” I always liked that and incorporated into our own written invoices for electrical service work.
I have pondered this: “Chiropractors went mainstream due to proof of workability. Very simple.”
I do not believe this was the case in the United States. Perhaps in Norway or Europe, but not in the United States.
In the USA chiropractic boomed after it was proven in Federal Court that the American Medical Association had engaged in decades of suppression of chiropractors. Chiropractic had survived inspite of medico’s efforts, andin my view,inspite of the fact that it was not really very workable, back then. It was workable only by comparison to medical approaches to the treatment of back problems.
The Judge ruled in 1987 that the AMA had attempted to “eliminate chiropractic”:
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/08/29/us/us-judge-finds-medical-group-conspired-against-chiropractors.html
For a lot of time, place, form and event on this case and the AMA’s history of actively suppressing and trying to wipe out alternative therapies, here’s a good book available for pennies from Amazon. Incidentally, the AMA is probably the major reason why the USA does not have national health insurance. The AMA spent many millions of dollars going back to the 1950s to defeat it.
The book:
The Serpent on the Staff: The Unhealthy Politics of the American Medical Association by Howard Wolinsky and Tom Brune.
The authors were respected Chicago Sun-Times journalists.
From Library Journal
Chicago Sun Times reporters Wolinsky and Brune argue that what is good for the American Medical Association
(AMA) is not necessarily good for the public or its health. Since the AMA is a doctors’ organization, few
readers will be surprised by the authors’ revelations of conflicts of professional vs. public interests.
The authors provide an overview of the AMA, discussing its organization and membership and how it works;
its political “wheeling and dealing”; and some of its less altruistic actions regarding alternative (i.e.,
nonallopathic) medicines, Medicare, and the tobacco and drug industries and its ethical waverings on health
issues such as abortion and AIDS. They write that “the AMA is a cheerleader for just enough reform to avoid
a major overhaul” of the U.S. healthcare system. Recommended for healthcare and public policy collections.
James Swanton, Albert Einstein Coll. of Medicine, New York
Copyright 1994 Reed Business Information, Inc.
Today many insurance companies cover some chiropractic care, with a co-pay by the patient.
Chiropractic has also improved a lot in the past 20-30 years; it is little known that at one time, chiropractic manipulations of the cervical spine was judged to have been responsible for some deaths, by injuring arteries in the neck.
Since then chiropractic has developed what they call “low-force” techniques of spinal manipulation which obviate this danger.
Chiropractic theory still hypes chiro treatment beyond what seems to me to be reasonable or proven. There are other forms of bodywork that are more effective, and more cost-effective, too. But today’s chiropractic practices are decent and many people swear by them.
The main problem with the “workability” of chiropractic is they are going about spinal alignment backwards. The spine gets misaligned then chiros try to force it back into correct alignment – but at this point – it is usually the muscles and ligaments that are holding the bones of the spine out of alignment! More than once a chiropractor has told me he was unable to make the adjustment because the muscles around the area in question were in spasm, as a form of “natural splint”. Some chiros in the USA now work with massage therapists, which facilitates the spinal adjustment being done by loosening the muscles first. Others now use mechanical massagers for the same purpose.
But all that aside, the main issue I see here, is what is “workability” and how much workability is enough workabilty? For example, ECT evidently has enough “workability” for insurance companies to pay for it, or for regulatory agencies to allow it, in spite of the volumes of evidence that ECT is not very effective, causes permanent memory loss and other cognitive deficits in many cases, and causes organic brain damage.
Given those kind of standards of “workabilty”, who cares? Perhaps some of these “standards of workability” are really a matter of politics.
Valkov, thanks for the very informative post. Good overview of chiropractic in particular. I remember the older, really forceful, “back-cracking” technique, which I think still exists (except for those heavy neck manipulations) but for quite a few years much more gentle methods have predominated, from what I have gathered. Actually, there seems to be quite a variety of chiropractic techniques now, and many of them differ so much from each other they don’t even look like they belong to the same profession.
Anyway, I agree with you that there are even more effective forms of body work – and I would add that besides body work, there are other non-allopathic types of health practices that are often more effective than medicine. Lots of literature on this subject too. I brought up chiropractic as an example because it is more widely known about, has been around for decades, and its history shows hard evidence (like that famous court case you cited) of the real-world dynamics involved in even continuing to practice, let alone be successful and prove workability.
Your example of ECT as a “proven” technique is great because, as a reverse example, it blatantly shows how much the ugly truth of politics is involved. And this is why I wonder if a lot of time, money and effort to prove workability, vs, just producing results, is necessarily the way to go. I don’t think Scientology should be resistant to anyone’s attempts to invest the time and money to prove workability – not at all – but probably all the eggs shouldn’t be put in that basket.
The other thing is, in addition to my personal experience on different flows, I don’t believe there could be as much reach for the alternative health field if factually there wasn’t anything to it and results weren’t happening. I’m sure there are examples in history of movements that started at the fringes of society and by word of mouth alone moved to the center. But I haven’t been able to bring to mind any example besides that of the health field. Maybe you or someone else can.
Actually, in the USA, the same people who go to medical doctors also use alternative treatments. I do that myself. Call us “discriminating consumers” The medical establishment takes in billions of dollars every year – but “alternative treatments” and the supplement industry actually take in even more. If medical care wasn’t covered by insurance companies, people would go for “alternative methods” 100:1. Since the advent of the Internet this is a done deal. A person can go online and research any treatment option and make his/her own decision.
Spot on. I have many times chosen to pay out of my own pocket for supplements or alternative treatments, rather than get free medication or free doctor visits. And that is largely because I’ve researched the general subject area, even before the internet. But I’m sure you are right that it’s the internet and all the information available on it that is increasing the momentum and the “alternative” will probably be the standard in the relatively near future. That’s when some of us will rarely see a doctor.
http://www.drday.com/
Shelley’s mom passed away 10 years ago afflicted with cancer. As I was uninformed and ignorant of cancer treatments, I did some research and found Dr. Day who as an MD refused destructive treatments for her own cancer. Alas, Shelley’s mom was a true believer in mainstream medicine (not to mention Catholicism) and would not veer from her course. However, I have been drinking Dr. Day’s carrot juice recipe ever since. — Another of Shelley’s gifts to me, weekly grinding up carrots and flavoring up that earthy mixture with strawberries, apples, and oranges to make the drink more palatable. I am 59 years old and can honestly say that I don’t look a day over 65!
Marildi,
I guess to summarize my view, it is that in the USA at least, calling the allopathic doctors and their Medical Association and their pharmaceutical companies “mainstream” is actually a kind of spin, intended to marginalize all other approaches to health as somehow being “fringe”.
In fact, by the dollar amounts willingly spent every year by the American public, the various alternatives combined are the “mainstream” and the medicos are the pretenders. People know better than to put all their eggs in one basket by going 100% with the medicos. Many people are aware of the destructive nature of many of the medications and treatments medicos use, and there is an increasing interest in what some call “holistic medicine”, Ayurveda, traditional Chinese medicine, yoga etc.
American medicine is “mainstream” in the same way that shamanism might be called mainstream in Mongolia.
That is not to say that American allopathic medicine has not developed some worthwhile techniques, but in my experience a person always gets “the poison with the gift”. They can save your life, but ruin it’s quality to such an extent it is hardly then worth living.
I know there are different and in some cases better approaches to treatments in Europe, but there are also drawbacks, such as the medicos there have managed to insert themselves into the regulation of supplements to the extent that one needs to get a prescription to buy many nutritional supplements and vitamins that are freely available OTC in the USA. I don’t see that as the optimum situation, either.
Right, V – I basically mean holistic methods when I say alternative. And I agree that it would be unfortunate if supplements needed to be prescribed – that would put the control in the hands of doctors who would still have their vested interests and who are still aligned with the drug companies. Anyway, there are proactive groups who are fighting this, as I’m sure you know.
But yes, doctors have their value – extremely so at times. Right now I have a friend who was in an accident and just found out she has a problem with lack of synovial fluid in one hip joint, and I am thinking this is just the kind of thing that doctors probably have the best tech for. But we’re going to research it. Hey, let me know if you happen to have data in this area, as you seem to be in the know about so many things! (I still say you are the most prolific information/knowledge scout we’ve ever had. :))
Wow, a lot of great responses posted! Chris, thanks for the carrot juice recipe. I think in Europe, some dietary things like that are routinely included in some cancer treatment, as well as heat treatments. I believe that in the USA medical doctors are actually constrained bylaw and regulation from using/recommending any treatments except those they are using. My wife is a “true believer” in “mainstream medicine” and hopefully she will never need to turn to them for any major action.
And Marildi, thanks for some confirmation of my thinking on these subjects. Some people feel I am off in left field about it all, but my experience and reading tell me it is not so..
Going back to the Wolinsky/Brune book about the AMA, I feel it is important to note that the 1950s were the heyday of the AMA, and that association spent over $4,000,000 back then, advertising against and lobbying against the passage of any version of a national universal healthcare plan. That was a lot of money back then, adjusted for inflation.
And things the AMA were doing to suppress chiropractic and other healthcare alternatives, they were certainly doing also to Hubbard and Dianetics. I think it is important to note that not all of LRH’s “enemies” were self-created. He did deride the medicos at times, but even if he hadn’t, Dianetics was “in for it” from the AMA regardless, and Hubbard was in for it for releasing Dianetics in the first place. He and the subject were going to be attacked no matter how he acted.
The Wolinsky/Brune book cites chapter and verse about the AMA’s tactics and strategies towards anything and anyone the medicos saw as potential competition, ithroughout the 20th century. It was basically a strategy of pre-emptive strikes against other subjects and treatment modalities, to invalidate them as thoroughly as possible. The AMA fought the implementation of Medicare tooth and nail because they feared it would limit the incomes of Doctors! LRH pegged them just right as “a trade organization”.
This is all well-documented in the book.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0874777542/sr=1-1/qid=1339017435/ref=olp_pg_used?ie=UTF8&colid=&coliid=&condition=used&me=&qid=1339017435&seller=&sr=1-1&startIndex=0
You obviously don’t live in California – we’re all off in left field here. Ha ha! Not really, but you know California – wild but often at the forefront of societal change with all the liberals and free thinkers with their higher than average awareness. Like us! 😉 But really, there are many people who think like we do about health questions. Actually, Elizabeth up there in wild and wooly British Columbia thinks like we do on the subject too. 🙂
Yes, I even had the mercury fillings removed 25 years back… only alternative, natural stuff for me. In fact I love acupunture. had it many many times. .
Absolutely, right on, correct imo. There are many adjectives could describe, but you’re words made the point perfectly!
Thank you isene for saying what is seldom said or recognized.
Marildi, I used to live in California. It is one of the few States where traditional Chinese/Asian doctors are allowed to practice without American MD supervision. When my mother moved here to Michigan, I was driving her to Windsor Canada occassionally to visit a traditional Chinese herbalist because they were not allowed to freely practice here in Michigan. And of course once MDs are involved, the cost of clinic visits skyrockets.
Interestingly, the more mainstream medicos there are around here where Iive, and in a a University town with a medical school there are always a lot, the more alternative practitioners there are, too.
PS your friend may need a hip replacement. If so shop around for good word of mouth and recommendations for where and by whom to have it done. Most people I have met with hip replacements are very happy with them, but the rehab after the surgery can be lengthy and somewhat painful for some people.
Marildi, I feel that I should remember your Scientology story but I can’t. You were working as word clearer at Flag LB? But were you raising your son in the SO? I would be honored if you would tell your own Scientology experience leading up to discovering Scientology and how you joined, tours of duty, etc.,. What were you doing and why did you find Scientology interesting? You are one of the great ones who exchanged in abundance. That would fit nicely on this thread.
Chris i am borken hearted thay you dont ask me such a question… In dust, nulled… my life never be the same… I am deeply insulted by this ignoring, unwanted and unloved.. just a lonely old thing alone… ugh…. such a burden not having friends..
haha — Yes, You are a poor girl! My heart is bleeding . . .
Your story won’t fit on any blog! I would very much love to hear more details about your experiences in Hungary and your growing up and coming to the New World. Then more chapters on your escapades!
Wow, Chris, that’s kind of a long story, but here’s a short version: personality test in the mail from the local mission, took comm course which at the time included buying DMSMH, stayed up all night reading it – and never looked back.
Okay, a bit more. Did courses at the mission, academy training at the local Org, went on org staff, and then got recruited into the SO – not with my sons (who were pretty well grown by then, but of course I was mislead about how often I would be able to see them…)
I had HCO posts, an exec post, and briefly a couple others, but the word clearer post was my favorite – by then I was disillusioned with so much but, unlike the other posts, as a word clearer I could really see I was doing something for somebody. It’s basically auditing – whether held down 7 or held down 5, it frees the being.
Gradually over the years I saw more and more that it was no longer Scientology that was being practiced. In fact, in my mind DM was a total dictator (the exact word I had for him – kept to myself, of course) and not a benevolent dictator, either – the hostile tone level was obvious. So after a few years of being in Doubt and always getting “handled” I finally was able to extricate myself. Pretty typical story, but thanks much for your interest. 🙂
Thanks for filling in a bit. You’ve got a rich story you could develop from that. I loved word clearing for the reasons you’ve stated. My single best memory of completing an action was Method 1 word clearing, and going Clear. My favorite activity on course was word clearing especially Method 9 which was like playing a board game except with real world effects.
Marildi “Pretty typical story,…”
Chris: I feel that you are selling your story short here… There are similarities in all our stories, yes, but they are definitely not typical! There is nothing typical about a person feeling there is something more that they should be doing about their life and then doing it! For you to have uprooted everything that you knew about and to go off onto the adventure of joining the Sea Organization is brave, courageous and bold. You must have had many interesting experiences, many interesting conversations, anecdotes, etc.,. Please tell more time place form and event, etc.,. when you feel like it.
side note: I just finished filling my pool with water tonight, servicing the pump, filter, light bulb, chemicals, and cleaning the flowers from the surface of the water that fall from outside my fence off a beautifully blooming tree…
Diogenese, You’ve been posting on Geir’s blog for some time now so you should have a feel for the posters and posting here. So I need to give you a warning, if you enjoy posting here and if you want to continue, then you must curtail the ad hom attacks on the other posters period. This is a self moderated blog and your ability to post unencumbered by moderation is a privilege and not an entitlement. This is the only uncensored blog of its type that I know and I want to keep it that way. I hope I have been clear.
Everyone else, lets review our tone and consider taking the pointy-prickly points from our commentary and get back into the fun-band of enjoying a free, high-brow, and spirited blog.
Chris,
I am surprised that you wrote such nonsense in response to my postings.
I often agree with your posts, especially your evaluation of DM, recently.
I just don’t have enough time to ack or reply to everyone and same with other’s posts.
At the same time, there are many others that agree with you, about my postings, but a whole bunch of wrongs do not make a right.
The truth is the truth.
The truth is not determined by majority.
In fact the majority is usually wrong.
In fact most people do not have a clue what truth is.
They would not recognize it if they fell into a lagoon of it.
I do not make ad hom attacks, etc.
You see and understand wrong.
I only speak the truth.
If there is anything I said that is not true, please point it out.
In fact your response to me is closer to ad hom atack, because you do understand what I said, so you just up and call it ad hom.
If you understood what truth was, you would not disagree with me.
Your problem is MUs.
The truth is that truth is sort of opposite to what you said.
If some one has the right to post something that is wrong, I certainly have the right to inject more truth, not?
Or if someone criticizes me, for saying the truth, I have the right to speak the truth and defend the truth. Not?
So what you see as ad hom, is not ad hom.
You have a MU on ad hom, as with most people.
Ad hom has become a popular method of attacking the truth.
The following website comes close to the explaining problem, but not entirely:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html
So go back to my posts, and point out anything that I said that was not true.
And explain why.
If you can prove that I was wrong on any point, I will accept it.
I am only after the truth. I only speak truth.
Only the truth will set us free. Only the truth will solve any problem.
Lies, and false and liming data, beliefs and opinions will continue to spin the world into further darkness and destruction.
The truth will bring sanity and enlightenment to this planet.
Dio
Maybe Diogenese could introduce him/herself and tell a little about his path to find this blog, interests, etc.,.
Chris,
I remember when I first posted here, and you said: Hey …..
(to someone, who I do not remember the name, it could of been Valkov or maybe someone else),
…….Fresh meat.
And you said something else, maybe it was welcome, or some thing like that.
I failed to respond, and ack, because I was extremely busy.
In fact, I think I remember partially writing a reply, but for some reason, I did not finish it or failed to send it.
But it looks like you do not like the taste of my meat.
Yes, I know it is strong, tough meat, too strong and too tough for most people’s weak stomachs to digest.
The truth makes most people boil over.
The truth is not determined by majority vote, or opinion polls,
nor is the truth out to win popularity contests, and neither am I.
Like I told Elizabeth, most people are more content and fare better if they are told lies, false and limiting data, and speak lies and false and limiting data.
To you and those whose stomach is too weak to digest my strong and tough meat, I suggest eating more vegetables and probiotics and get more fresh air.
ARC….
Dio
PS.
Oh, one other thing:
The truth on this planet, is not given to anyone on a silver platter or on buffets or found in the market place.
The truth in this universe is hidden and protected by many layers of lies and deceptions, to protect it from fools, prostitutes and swine.
For to give truth to such kinds, is like throwing pearls in front of swine, they only trample it into their manure with their feet, then lay on it.
The universe does not do that.
In order to know and understand what truth is, and find the truth, or learn the truth you have to ask the empty space in front of you, the Static, the Nothing in front of you and inside of you to teach you the truth in all things.
Ask it to give you wisdom,knowledge and understanding.
That empty space is alive and well. It is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
Ask non ceasingly.
When you are ready your teacher will appear, and not until then.
If you have not done that, the truth has alluded you and gave you lies instead, which you thought was truth. But you have been deceived.
Because , remember that for everything genuine, there is a perfect counterfeit.
The Word Clearer strikes again. Don’t mess with the Word Clearer!
troll 1 (trl)
v. trolled, troll·ing, trolls
v.tr.
1.
a. To fish for by trailing a baited line from behind a slowly moving boat.
b. To fish in by trailing a baited line: troll the lake for bass.
c. To trail (a baited line) in fishing.
2. Slang To patrol (an area) in search for someone or something: “[Criminals] troll bus stations for young runaways” (Pete Axthelm).
Alright then Diogenese, continue on this path and you will need to blog elsewhere. For now, here is your “Yellow Card.” This is barring you from posting here for 48 hours. I hope you will reconsider your behavior toward the other posters here. You are not receiving the Yellow Card for the vapid content of your posts but for the ad hom attacks and negative attitude. We welcome your opinions when they are presented respectfully, but we are under no pressure to endure your nasty commentary and this Yellow Card is our recourse.
Chris, the comments have been so outrageous that I started thinking we may have a troll amongst us. From the Urban Dictionary, here is the definition of trolling:
“The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet using dialogue… The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, NO MATTER HOW OUTRAGEOUS [my caps], or b) give your victim malicious instructions, under the guise of help.”
.
Then I got curious about the psychology of a troll and found this:
“All trolls are basically the same – they love to insult people, create conflict, and generate anger and anxiety as a way to feel powerful. Internally, they are often insecure, angry, vulnerable people.”
http://www.networksofdoom.com/tag/psychology-of-online-communities/
.
.
Ah, was that necessary ? 😦
Well, Tor Ivar, I thought it was. If he’s a troll, intentionally annoying and/or upsetting people, that effect would no longer be possible if people were aware of that intention. If he’s not a troll, I’m sure that he can make that clear – this is a very easy group to deal with. But if he is a troll, we probably won’t hear from him again as he will know his trick won’t work any more.
I guess I kind of misread the “troll”-term. In Scandinavia calling someone a “troll” can be somewhat offensive …
… but then it’s “troll” in the trad meaning, not the internet-meaning … ‘f’U’C ?
In English there are actually two completely different words (called homonyms, as you probably know, since you are a lingo enthusiast ;)) with two different etymologies. We use the same word that originated in Scandinavia folklore, meaning those supernatural beings hostile to humans. But the other word spelled the same has to do with fishing by trailing a line behind a slow moving boat. The internet word seems to be a combination of the two concepts – I read about the derivation in this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
Marildi,
I used to think of those as homonyms, but I don’t anymore, because although they sound alike they are not actually spelled the same:
1trawl verb \ˈtrȯl\
Definition of TRAWL
intransitive verb
1
a : to fish with a trawl
b : to make a search as if by trawling
2
: troll 2a
transitive verb
: to catch (fish) with a trawl
See trawl defined for English-language learners »
See trawl defined for kids »
Examples of TRAWL
The boat trawled far out at sea.
a fishing boat trawling the ocean floor
He trawled the Internet looking for Web sites on growing grapes.
She was trawling through old letters for information about her family.
Origin of TRAWL
probably from obsolete Dutch tragelen
First Known Use: 1561
Thus an Internet troll is out trawling for people’s buttons.
Beg to differ with you my fellow word lover ;). Both words exist, very close in meaning, but “trawl” has to do with fishing with a net while “troll” is with a hook and line. Same pronunciation – but different etymologies! Funny, huh?
This comment was misplaced so I am reposting it here where it should appear:
The Word Clearer strikes again. Don’t mess with the Word Clearer!
troll 1 (trl)
v. trolled, troll·ing, trolls
v.tr.
1.
a. To fish for by trailing a baited line from behind a slowly moving boat.
b. To fish in by trailing a baited line: troll the lake for bass.
c. To trail (a baited line) in fishing.
2. Slang To patrol (an area) in search for someone or something: “[Criminals] troll bus stations for young runaways” (Pete Axthelm).
Ha ha! Thank you, thank you. 😀
Anyway, maybe the most interesting thing is that when you shed som sunlight on a troll (eg. exposing it), then it wlll either break (explode) or turn stone … (depends on which myth you look to … ) .
So Marildi, by exposing this guy (if he’s troll), we’ve got rid of him as you correctly assumed … 😀
Ah, the wisdom in those old myths.
Well, we shall see. I really hope he isn’t a troll and does come back. And follows the blog rules, of course. Then we’ll have his unique viewpoint – the positive, likable side that was there too – to add to this motley crew. 😉
Probably not
See my answer elsewhere.
Chris, do you mean like a yellow card in ball games, like soccer? Are you an official referee here? I’m just a bit confused here.
Profant, You are right to ask because your question is pertinent to the OP. No, I am not a referee in an official capacity. I am a member of this loosely formed blog group in the same capacity as you. No more and more importantly — no less. As a kid, playing unregulated sports, everyone calls their own fouls when they happen and everyone respects that. Done with sportsmanship and a love for the game it works. That is all that happened here. How far outward into the game of life could we expand this? At all? . . . or a lot? Does transcendent exchange imply being pan-determined?
Thank you for your explanation of the way you meant your yellow card. I like that.
Thank you, Geir, for formulating this. The same thing was dormant in the less active part of my mind and I’ve been aware of it for many years, but it just never occurred to me that it would resonate with others so much.
Geir, the comment number has passed 20 thousand. Does this represent the total number of comments on the blog? If so, congratulations to you on creating a transcendent blog.
Yes – you guys have been busy 🙂
Yes, congratulations, Geir and everybody! 🙂
Geir, I was going to say that you can celebrate by watching Venus transit across the sun today but I guess that will occur when it’s dark there in Norway – bummer! Well, maybe you can travel a little further north to where it’s daylight all day. You probably would if you could – and take your telescope with you too! 😉
I will be up early tomorrow morning 🙂
Oh, so you will be able to see it there! Super! I guess you can use some filters and take photos – and post them. 😉
I think Katrina can give him the “honey-do” list Marildi! hahaha 😉
Ha ha! I know, but we can always drop a hint. And Geir is often a honey at picking up on them up. 😛
Oh man, there are now longer days in Norway than in most places on Earth 😀
Now that you mention it, I guess the long days should have been obvious because of how close you are to the Arctic circle. I figured there might be a couple hours of daylight when the Venus transit could be viewed but not during the whole time – unless the midnight sun would work just fine too?
So when does the sun rise and set there in Norway at this time of year?
Right now the sun is “down” like between 0:30 AM and 1:30 AM, if that long … 🙂
O-M-G! You must have a high incidence of insomnia there in Norway. 😉
Not really, we’re used to it, and in the northernmost areas they use blinds on the windows.
GEIR:
there are videos on you tube what children can do. I thought you might be interested
There is a PS: on the end here what I am doing about it. but to long to write
Midbrain activation is a phenomenal discovery in the education of children. Actual use of the midbrain theory has been applied in many Asian countries especially Japan. Japan has long been engaged in practice midbrain activation in children. A child who has been activated the midbrain will have more ability than children who the midbrain have not activated.
Activities with eyes closed is a most significant activity can be seen. A child who the midbrain has been activated (Mid Brain Activated) can have extraordinary abilities. This ability is even exhibited remarkably often in magic entertainment programs. After seeing the ability of children who have been activated, most magic game show at The Master’s become less attractive. Because this can be done by their own innocent children who only received training midbrain activation during the two days. Basic skills that can be done is to ‘see’ the card with the eyes closed (blind fold). Christofle (9 yrs), for example, after following the midbrain activation training, can sort all cards according to numbers, colors and shapes the picture cards with their eyes closed. He could use the felt senses to see the patterns and colors complete with figures just by eyesight skin (Skin Vision).
Another capability that can be done by these children is to walk with eyes closed, without crashing. Conducted experiments on a boy who walked with his eyes covered with cloth. Someone deliberately blocking the road in front. He was immediately able to avoid obstacles without touching it. A child can even recognize his father among the crowd of other parents, without touching and hearing his voice.
At more advanced levels a child is expected to
‘See’ objects behind walls or inside the box. He can even count the money contained in the
someone in front of her wallet without the person issuing wallet. If a child is diligent train brain functions and even the middle he can expect to read documents located in a position closed.
Predictive ability (to predict what will happen some time later) is a higher capacity that can be owned by a child. A child who has been the center of the brain activation can ‘guess’ what the card will appear at the time the person is still shuffle the cards. Once finished mixing, and choose a card, that person took a card that turned out exactly as ‘suspected’ of the child.
Midbrain activation is not something magical or supernatural smells. Midbrain activation was done by scientifically. Midbrain activation was much use Alpha brain waves. Alpha brainwaves are the scientifically proven brain waves that appear dominant as we in a state of relaxed and most creative. These brain waves are usually dominant at the time we wake up, or in a state of relax on the toilet, or even having a bath of hot water in the bathtub. No wonder why Archimedes discovered the law Achimedes when he took a shower.
Midbrain of the activated brain waves that radiate like a radar. This makes the owner able to see objects in a state of eyes closed. Basically, the wave is located below the nose. Only able to detect objects located slightly below the nose.
Regular exercise can make the children become stronger and able to see objects located higher. There are even some kids who can medeteksi to 360 degrees. That means they can detect objects located in the rear, top and all directions.
Brain activation training center has been installed in Indonesia. Today not many people know of the existence of this training program. Training is usually conducted over two days. At that time, also usually carried out training for the parents. Like other areas of expertise, parents can play a major role to help children develop their potential midbrain. A child with a strong mid-brain, expected to develop the left brain and right brain to be maximal so that they can enter the category of genius. Not only in the left brain (IQ, intellectual), or right brain (emotional, EQ) but also in ‘Loving Intelligence’. They are individuals of a balanced and loving others as the creator loves him. Unfortunately this midbrain activation training can only be done for children aged 5-15 years.
PS: You might know about this all-ready. I had session on the topic and I am started to do what i can to open the mid brain. In session I have find out why only works for children what is in fact the middle brain is…. in fact it has nothing to with the brain.
i like working with reality not understood and this is one of them… wonderful stuff
Thanks for this, Elizabeth! I got especially interested that you have already found that it really doesn’t have to do with the brain, or is not based in the brain. I am interested to hear, as you go along, your thoughts about this “mid-brain activation training”.
Ack; I was about to say what Valkov just said.
There is always a hubbub about what is true and what is not. My wife, Shelley, just reminded me to say, “Tell them that sometimes kindness is wiser than truth.” (How’d I get so lucky?)
Awesome quote
Your wife is very wise. Kindness is always senior to truth I think. At any rate, truth without kindness can be nothing more than cruelty in disguise.
Valkov: “”truth without kindness can be nothing more than cruelty in disguise””” care to explained that to me, how truth without kindness can be cruelty in disguise? first tell me what you think is truth than in separated explanation tell me, what is kindness…. PLEASE????
“
Ah, Erzsebet my dear, truth is nature (or nature is by def truth), and nature is cruel, nature is dog eat dog and fox eat rabbit, and war and freezing winters and scolding sun … The electric chair is still a part of the truth if I’m not wrong …
Kindness is more like one our sayings, ” … to excute mercy as justice …” It’s a human perspective above and beyond the plain facts …
Tor Ivar, what a lovely post. Nice! You are a poet. 🙂
(Deeeeeep, humble bow) Thank you ma’am !!! 🙂
Tor ivar talking about crule…. i just got back from my hunting expedition…. Attila rides again.. hunting season.. the slugs are munching in my garden.. Yes I get your point..too… bigger gets the smaller.. I know what is kindness… I really do.. i have on older sister,, who i help out…. I just forgotten to be kind to my self in my relantless hunt….. . I have ordered the books… thanks again..
I’ll give a quick example. Some child is not as handsome as another, or even most others. Perhaps this child could even be considered “ugly” by many people. Would you tell this child that he/she is “ugly”? It is “the truth”.
I would not.
Whoa, you guys are on a roll.
Elizabeth, Valkov just put a whole chapter into a nutshell for you. 🙂
marildi where is that chapter? I am a bit wabbly tonight I have eaten hazel nuts and i forgotten that my body cant handle it… what a reaction!!!
Oh, I just meant that he could have written a lot, like as long as a chapter, but instead he summed his idea up in a few words with one simple example that made his point.
i got that.. thanks..
… or your wife has bought a new dress that … 😀
Valkov, i got your point any one who only looks the outside layer could see not see the real being…. but beauty is there no matter what , again there is a agreement on this planet what is beautiful and what is ugly…. to bad for those who belong to that group..
Valkov since phone is not to expansive you could call, What I have found with midd brain thing is most interesting but would take me so much writing… You can call or use skype to… I have found something which I had no reality on before I have known of existance but not the reason for it.. what I have found over the years that sessions bring undertanding.. sessions do educate one….this midd brain what is just simply incradible… 1 604 467 5238 any one can call me …. or email for skype connection. endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com
Elizabeth, May I join in? We are on a tangent of “discussing kindness” and not of “dissolving the universe.” Good manners are an art form which are inexpensive and beneficial. Valkov is not referring to the Truth of searching for what we mechanically are under many layers of thought. My take is that Valkov is referring to the agitated mental state of people who dispense low toned and hateful speech in the guise of truth. This is the cruelty that he is referring to and not to “pretend kindness” while sticking the knife in someone’s ribs. He does not mean to pretend kindness in preference to being genuine. There is true kindness after all — the kind of kindness where I am mindful of the hard battles that we all fight and I remember this as I deal with people that I meet and live with.
Chris today i am not in the mood for lessons….simple question was asked and I was waiting for his reality and not yours, i dont mind you giving your reality what is kindness, Would be happy to hear it. but “desolving the universe “bit you should left off!!!
I didn’t mean to teach. Meant to clarify the subject of Valkov’s post. Just a discussion.
Valkov, I looked up these words, in the dict.
Kind = caring…sympathetic … concerned …thoughtful …compassionate.. considerate … understanding …. empathetic …
Truth= fact.. Reality … actuality…. Veracity …accuracy…. Correctness …precision …
Right!
Thank you Valkov. Shelley might be the kindest person I ever met, definitely is when considered over a duration of years rather than only a moment. She is the working example of “outflow greater than inflow.” I am a little bit used to this at home and am spoiled. Sometimes, when I look around me and see what passes for acceptable exchange in the world at large, I am humbled by what I get to experience at home.
“Sometimes kindness is wiser than truth”
Shelley’s words are inspiring paraphrases. Valkov’s were: “Kindness is always senior to Truth” and “Truth without Kindness can be nothing more than cruelty in disguise.” And mine was: “Kindness is the new Truth”
Good slogans for just the right company, organization, campaign, project – or song lyric (country? ballad?). Mine is even short enough for a bumper sticker. 🙂
Bumper sticker? hahaha Yes. This philosophy has been around for a while, hasn’t it? I dug around a little bit and found some extended discussions of this theme. One quote, “Be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle,” is routinely attributed on the internet to Plato, but not so.
“Ian MacLaren,” is the nom de plume of John Watson. Along with other celebrities, he was asked, in 1897, to send a Christmas message to an influential religious weekly in England. He responded by sending the short but striking sentence: “Be pitiful, for every man is fighting a hard battle.” No message is more needed in our days of stress and storm, of selfish striving and merciless competition.
(Oxford English Dictionary: pitiful, A. adj. 1. Full of or characterized by pity; compassionate, merciful, tender. Now rare.)
Thumbs up ! 🙂
And similarly, there is this:
“…a truly great person loves his fellows because he understands them. After all, they are all in the same trap…They act the way they do because they are all subject to the same cruel pressures of this universe.” (from the article “What is Greatness”, LRH)
That is Scientology before it started going off the rails. And who did it or why it happened isn’t all that significant to the subject itself, IMO – whether it was LRH through gross errors and/or bad intentions, or others who were guilty of either or both of those.
Hey, I just thought of something funny. I don’t know whether to call myself an Orthodox Scientologist or a member of the Scientology Reformation. 😀
Waht about and Orthodox Reformist ? 😀
I kinda like it… 🙂
Repeat your acts of blasphemy over and over and one sunny day you may join us – ex-scientologists 😉
Never! Repent, you sinner! 😀
“This man beside us also has a hard fight with an unfavouring world, with strong temptations, with doubts and fears, with wounds of the past which have skinned over, but which smart when they are touched. It is a fact, however surprising. And when this occurs to us we are moved to deal kindly with him, to bid him be of good cheer, to let him understand that we are also fighting a battle; we are bound not to irritate him, nor press hardly upon him nor help his lower self.” — from COURTESY by Ian MacLaren, 1903
IN LIGHT OF A DISCUSSION ON TRANSCENDENT EXCHANGE: A WORD ABOUT THE PRICE OF HEALTHCARE
There have been made some comments about universal healthcare. I take it that people desire this. These people who desire this must have a good confidence that the government being involved in administrating a marketplace is a good idea. I do not have this confidence.
Not including the government’s involvement, the high cost of health care has to do with irresponsible personal behavior, health insurance, and unscrupulous legal practices. Without this unholy trinity, healthcare would exist in a freer market. Medical doctors would not only not charge so much; but they would be unable to charge so much because the marketplace would not bear it.
Doctors, to become doctors, exchange in abundance. They do not owe their help. And yet, to learn a new 50,000 word vocabulary and it’s application, students of medicine run themselves ragged in the pursuit of becoming medical doctors. They work more than 80 hours per week for many years in the pursuit of the goal of becoming licensed practicing physicians. That many continue to do pro bono work after they become medical doctors is to their credit and not because they are criticized into it.
Insurance companies are composed of middle men who add overhead costs to health care and in my opinion, little else. They are re-sellers of health care. They resell health care to the consumer on the one end. Then on the other end, together with the big stick provided by unscrupulous and opportunistic lawyers, they manufacture both the need for malpractice insurance and the malpractice insurance that a practicing physician daren’t practice without. Depending on the specialty, it is common for a doctor to pay $10,000 per month for malpractice insurance. This is about $60 per hour out of their 40 hour work week.
In the United States, roughly half of tax filers pay any income tax. In my opinion, this is not a fair exchange. But then it is also my opinion that healthcare furnished by others is not an inalienable personal right. My opinion on this is routinely viewed as callous, unenlightened, and unkind; but is it truly? Healthcare in the United States currently is priced at 6 times retail in the current market. By 6 times retail, I mean that a $ .15 cent aspirin from the pharmacy costs $ .90 by the time it is marked up through the extant healthcare system. After the government becomes the curator of healthcare, I believe that price will increase. It seems wrong and out of exchange for healthcare to cost too much because of a “criminal exchange.” If healthcare prices were allowed to float freely on an open market, it is my belief that they would quickly become affordable for a working class person to pay for out of their own pocket. Arguments for universal (code for government sponsored) healthcare seem to be driven by overwhelmingly high prices. Arguments for “others” paying for this overpriced healthcare seem to be driven the politics of an irresponsible ” ‘THEY’ ought to do something about it.”
For those feeling critical of my opinions on this I would ask how have you exchanged with healthcare? Have you contributed to or taken from? — Not rhetorical questions to win an argument. Questions that must be addressed as problems to be solved. There could be many kinds of answers to this. Me? I have spent from my life savings to help my oldest daughter attend medical school rather than pay off the mortgage on my home. For me, this was a lot of money and is money that won’t be coming back to me. I think that is one type of exchange in abundance. Toward my daughter, this was transcendent exchange. Toward the rest of you reading this? Not so much.
Good thoughtful post Chris.
The problem with realities is that they are so darned COMPLEX! It is not “cost” alone that is the issue here, and what actually drives costs up. I think there are several factors, but chiefly they are profit motive and a lack of integrity.
I really haven’t done any comparative study of different healthcare administration systems, but I am aware they exist. I think without doing a head-to-head comparison of the actual costs of healthcare as delivered by some of the European “universal” systems with our American system, it’s hard to say what is best.
What I am acutely aware of, is the potentials for abuse in a “for-profit” healthcare system such as we have in the USA. The possibility of profit increases the possibility of corruption, as practiced by the AMA in the 20th century. In other countries where Doctors are on salary, some of these kinds of temptations simply don’t exist.
Doctors should earn a good living wage, but they should not be able to aggrandize themselves by performing unnecessary procedures or having vested interests in medical equipment manufacturing or laboratories. Nor should costs become inflated by having a bloated bureaucracy doing the administration, but I think an argument can be made that having a centralized agency running things could reduce the costs involved.
Part of the problem in the USA is the enormous cost of getting a medical education, in time and dollars. I suspect that the education is flawed and selects for people who are actually in the end not “good doctors” in that pre-med stresses the sciences at the expense of the humanities and successful students tend to be geeky nerdy “engineering” types who may be decent people. I think the ascendance of “nurse practitioners” is evidence of this. Nurse practitioners are taking over much of the work Doctors used to do, and doing it better.
Well, as I said, the problem is it is so COMPLEX. But I do think eliminating the profit motive is key to controlling medical costs.
And by “Universal healthcare” I do not mean a system in which the wino living on the streets is able to get bypass surgery or stents and all the follow-up care and medications those require. I’m talking about basic care like immunizations and treatments for children and their mothers and various kinds of routine care for anyone, antibiotic prescriptions when necessary, and various kinds of diagnosis etc. The basic healthcare system would be along the lines of a system of family physicians, not a network necessarily, of expensive specialists. There is no reason why such a system couldn’t co-exist alongside free market elements for those Doctors who are more ambitious, and people who wanted more coverage could buy their own additional insurance.
It’s not an “either/or” situation; in fact Medicare exists alongside our for-profit system. And I do not have the impression that Medicare is poorly administered or expensive or wasteful. In fact, I have heard the opposite, that it is cost-effective and well-run.
All in all, the “healthcare” situation is a big elephant to walk around and inspect, and I don’t know what the optimum solution for the USA is, but I do know of various isolated outpoints, like that the AMA fought tooth-and-nail to prevent Medicare from happening, and I do know that various of the European countries and Canada have some kind of “universal” national systems which seem to guarantee at least a basic standard of care the USA does not provide it’s own citizens, although it is arguably the “richest” country in the world.
The Preamble to the Constitution of the US says this:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America…….
…..”promote the general Welfare” I think allows for the government to organize and run a basic health care system should the people wish it to do so. If the Gov’mint is going to collect taxes, I would vote for it to use more of the money for healthcare and less of the money for weapons of mass destruction. On the United Way model, why not have the ability to designate where at least some of my enforced “contribution” will be spent – or what I don’t want it spent on. Having some power of choice would be a plus, and make the taxation more “voluntary”.
Well that’s it in 25 words or less.
An incomplete thought posted above, about medical education: “…. successful students tend to be geeky nerdy “engineering” types who may be decent people.” Should read: “……who may be decent people but often lack “people skills” and empathy, and also tend to get lost in the minutae of blood test results etc and lack basic observation and confronting skills I feel are important to “good doctoring”.
Could I ask if this has been your personal experience with doctors? And if so, what were you asking from them that you found them unable or unwilling to furnish? (like maybe in example form)
Wow Valkov. Where to begin? You’ve made so many extrapolations rooted in seed data that is different from my own that it is hard for me to form a cogent comment. Regardless of what types of people become doctors or how badly they are trained, I want to point out that your comment that, “The possibility of profit increases the possibility of corruption,…” is rooted in a false major premise. This may be where we diverge altogether on this topic. I think there is an equal argument to be made that “The IMPOSSIBILITY of profit increases the possibility of corruption.” Look at any black market anywhere and look to the root cause of its starting and I think you can see what I mean. Maybe both these statements are false and the reality is rooted in some other personal and internal integrity issue having to do with covetousness. Regardless, as you say, “realities are complex,” but I don’t think that the seed iterations of these realities are complex at all.
Yes, both these statements are only partially right, and to that degree they are partially wrong or incomplete. You mention “black markets”. Well, the USA had it’s Prohibition Era. What happened there?
Or currently, why are alcohol and pharma are allowed, while other “chemicals” that cannot be patented, like marijuana, are criminalized?
My point is, if you want to know why things are the way they are, “Follow the money”. Outlawing things is a way of making them scarce, thus you can charge more for them on a black market, or in a blind pig. Another way is to create and enforce a monopoly, instead of “open sourcing” things. If you have a monopoly, you can charge more.
Why did you have to choose between paying off your mortgage, and sending your daughter through medical school?
It’s not a question of “having a game or not having a game”. It is questions about the nature of the game, about having a level playing field, about special interests being exempt from following the same rules most of us are supposed to follow, it’s about all that namby-pamby theetie-wheetie bleeding heart liberal stuff about honesty and ethics and fairness, all that silly stuff about equal opportunity, fair living wages etc.
Try this: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-20110216
Then, get a copy of The Serpent on the Staff and read that. You will then have some of the same “seed data” I have. In fact, eventually many American Doctors themselves ended up revolting against the AMA and breaking away from it, which forced some changes. But the AMA still exists, and it still is a doctor’s trade organization, no there for the “public benefit”.
It’s not about “well, it’s a game so I don’;t wan to hear any no sour grapes if you don’t play it well and get beat at it”. NO.
That’s an unquestioning apathetic and at best unsympathetic “suck it up soldier” attitude I reject.
My game is to observe and spot the outpoints I see in the way the game is set up and played in the first place, and it’s obvious to me there is a lot of corruption happenin’.
I get what you mean by “seed data” but really I think it is “stable data” that are causing the problem here, to whatever extent there is a “problem”. Stable data tend to be arbitraries. A stable datum need not be true in order to be stabilizing a confusion.
What has to be kept in mind is that we are walking around the same elephant, which is the game of existence and which has more heads and legs and tails than any real elephant and thus it is too easy to jump to conclusions and accept faulty stable data as the Republicans and Democrats do. It is better to assume each side is referring to actual seed data.
OK, you want personal experiences? I nearly died when I was little more than 4 years old because a half-drunk Army surgeon was somehow called upon to do a tonsillectomy on me in the middle of the night. He nicked an artery or vein in my throat and I lost a lot of blood. Since I am O-negative I was lucky my grandmother was there and was willing to provide some compatible blood for a transfusion, or I might have bled out. I was under ether I believe it was, and flying frantically around the OR because I thought I was going to lose the body.
Some experiences are on other flows, what I observed about medical treatments given my mother, my grandmother, my grandfather, and others, as well as their own reports and viewpoints about what happened to them. I have personal stories that are less dramatic.
Your daughter is very brave to go into medicine, whether she knows it or not. I’m sure she will be a very good Dr. I think she will also have some eye-opening experiences. You will hear about them no doubt as she runs up against outpoints, deviations from her medical ideal scene.
That is really what I am talking about, outpoints and ideal scenes, not adjusting to the existing game(s).
Your remark about apathy reminded me of a story about when I was in the Sea Organization. I had a disagreement with the filthy and stinking childcare facility, my daughter’s sexual abuse at the hands of a young teenage boy, the amount of “family time” that we were allowed, and her inability to read or write at 8 years of age, I was challenged with “what are YOU doing about it?” During my many ethics interviews regarding my desire to leave the Sea Org, I was challenged to “fix it” and told that my “inability” to fix it was a cleverly disguised “unwillingness” to fix it. As a solution, I was invited to participate in the Rehabilitation Project Force. I declined, left the SO, and went off in another direction by teaching my daughter to read and write over the top of coaching her through the third grade in “horrible” public school and so on and so forth. At 18 years of age, she wanted to join the Navy and so came to me for help to negotiate her contract. Later, when she wanted to buy a home, I helped her with the down payment. Yet later, when she finished her 4-1/2 years of honorable service, she wanted to go to university but the commute was a bit long so I replaced her clunker with a newer auto. And still yet later, when she graduated with honors from the University of Texas and wanted to attend medical school, I pitched in on that.
So your remark about apathy got me to thinking and I realized that apathy would be the feeling that I can’t do something about things, but I never do feel that way. Don’t you think that a person selects their own problems to have?
On the subject of “profit,” I’d like to declare that profit is a game only. If it is a game that anyone doesn’t like or agree with it seems to me that there a number of options for them dropping out of that game and getting out of that loop. I have accomplished this to a degree in my life. I live on what I would call the fringe of commerce. Whether you look at my abdication of my position in routine middle class society to join the Sea Org, or you look at my self-employment in the years previous to that or since, you can see a person who with certain disagreements with conventional employment simply did not play that game.
If a person’s complaint is simply that they don’t enjoy a “game of profit,” then I believe that there are options.
If a person’s complaint is that they don’t like “those guys over there getting profit” or “I am not getting my share of profit,” then I believe that is an covetous internal conflict and a misunderstanding of the game. This type of problem cannot be helped by “giving the person a fish,” but only by “teaching the person to fish.” But until that time, I do not feel that it is fair for anyone to try to suppress another’s “game of making profit” just because the person suppressing is not winning in the game.
Chris,
So I guess it’s OK for David Miscavige to “make a profit” however he can, and if I fail to match his weekly take it is just sour grapes for me to support exposing him as a conniving fraud thus “suppressing his game of making profit”?
Hey Chris! I just heard about this great new MLM with a matchless product that will make you healthy wealthy and wise as your wife if you take it every day and recruit others to buy in also. Get back to me I’ll send you the sign-up forms!
If you want to play, play. If you don’t then don’t. That’s my point.
If you don’t like Miscavige’s game, don’t play. If you want to play cops and robbers, then go arrest him… My point is that this should be up to you what you play.
And if you find yourself in a concentration camp with Viktor Frankl, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl , then what? I’m not trying to get you to agree to play a game you don’t want to nor to get you to stop playing a game that you do want to play. I’m trying to make the point that following your own path regardless of circumstances is the height of freedom and that is something that we can shoot for.
The conversation about healthcare is a subtopic of the topic of freedom. If I want to get very embroiled and stirred up by what medical care should be doing for me, then it seems that I am giving away my personal power. For me, lots of things like that aren’t worth losing the personal freedom that I’ve scrapped for. And maybe that was just my game, setting my own hours, making my time my own, being able to say “no” sometimes when I didn’t agree with what someone was asking me to do. I don’t have all this nailed down, but really for the most part, I spend my time on things that I am mindful of wanting to do.
Man, you really do live out in the desert where nobody bothers you much. Lucky guy! That’s why America is such a great country – there’s enough space for a person to get away from it all, or most of it.
Young Japanese business folk come over here on “tours of duty”,usually 2 or 3 years. They often don’t want to go back, they feel claustrophobic about being back in Japan where a person can,in a pinch, “rent-a-coffin” to sleep in overnight at the bus station. These are units stacked to save space.
Anyway, Japanese concluding a tour of duty in Michigan have wistfully told me, “I don’t want to go back. There is so much SPACE here!” They are sad to leave.
“If you want to play, play. If you don’t then don’t.” (And if you lose, tough shit, Devil take the hindmost, you might add.) That’s so Darwinian, so dog eat dog. It does make for good drama, Hollywood uses it a lot. But even in the desert, the game can catch up with you, as when you have to choose between the mortgage and a child’s education.
The USA spends about 43% of the entire WORLD’S outlay on weapons(defense). Here’s a pie chart:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/u-s-military-spending-v-the-rest-of-the-world/
Why accept “the game” as it is? Why not tweak it so some of that “defense spending” goes to paying for the medical education of people like your daughter?
Other countries can do it, why not the USA? Where’s the kindness?
You don’t have to convince me as I have been writing this to you. My seed data came from my daughter’s relay of her experiences in medical school, which you have written about with authority. Follow your own path and be at peace with that. If your predilection is to cross another’s and you find yourself in a conflict, then enjoy. I think I missed what you say you’ve been actively doing to tweak the proportion of defense spending vs education spending?
Thanks for clarifying what you meant by “seed data”. I though you meant something completely other, as I could not see how you could base the wide-ranging opinions about profit, games, state of the world etc on feedback from your daughter on her medschool experience.
You have obviously done a tremendous amount of “doing something about it”, with your daughter and your family and your own life. Sounds like, far more than I have been able to do with mine.
It is awesome that you have been able to help your daughter rise from neglected and abused SO child, to MD!
But however little I have been able to do about things I have been faced with, it has not taken away my ability to observe and think about what I see.
And this is not to say I think you have lost those abilities, either. Far from it. If I have given you that impression, I am sorry.
I am not wholly responsible for the world’s condition, and neither are you. I am responsible only for my own responses to it, as are you responsible for your own responses to it. Beyond that there are effects you might help bring about through your ARC with others, which can bring about agreements, and agreements build realities.
But it begins with awareness. A person isn’t going to respond to things he is not aware of. That is the point of some, maybe much, of my posting – it is to add to the data pool, based on things I have seen, heard, or experienced. It is not personal.
Fundamentally, without awareness, no tweaking of anything will ever take place. So I post about situations and outpoints I think I am aware of, that I think have some validity to them, ie I think are somewhat real.
That’s all, really. If some of my statements have been offensive to you, I apologize. I tend to be blunt about stating my opinions.
You have a fine wit and a keen insight and can never be correctly faulted for saying what is on your mind. I have much respect for you Valkov.
“We start, then, with nothing, pure zero. But this is not the nothing of negation. For not means other than, and other is merely a synonym of the ordinal numeral second. As such it implies a first; while the present pure zero is prior to every first. The nothing of negation is the nothing of death, which comes second to, or after, everything. But this pure zero is the nothing of not having been born. There is no individual thing, no compulsion, outward nor inward, no law. It is the germinal nothing, in which the whole universe is involved or foreshadowed. As such, it is absolutely undefined and unlimited possibility — boundless possibility. There is no compulsion and no law. It is boundless freedom.”
Charles S. Peirce, “Logic of Events” (1898)
Woops. Wrong thread!
Actually Maria, we needed a quick plunge in the pure waters of Native State to clear our heads. At least I did.
Valkov: “Why did you have to choose between paying off your mortgage, and sending your daughter through medical school?”
Chris: I mis-wrote. I did both, it’s just that the mortgage is taking longer and wasn’t as important to me at the time as her school.
For games to be games they must contain the possibility of loss. The gods first took mortal forms in order to have this possibility of loss so the fables tell. So I think it is a mistake to desire an end to any possibility of suffering. Isn’t our “negative view” of problems, the problem?
I didn’t finish that thought. I wanted to communicate that when I create without thought of exchange, then I begin to participate in “transcendent exchange” which is the type of exchange that I truly need: nothing at all except the joy of creating. When the creation of my lives is set firmly in my minds as being owned by myself, then I feel that I have begun living rightly.
Do I think all problems are “asked for” problems? NO. Only perhaps to the extent that a person “asks for” something that he is not aware of asking for. However, who among us except for (supposedly) Buddha, is “omniscient”? Which I take to mean 100% aware of his own actions, intentions, and the consequences thereof, 100% of the time. I certainly am not. It is clear to me there are things going on below my usual level of awareness, that I see only “through a glass, darkly”.
All is games. That’s not the issue. The issue to me is cheating. Another issue is rigged games, in which the ostensible rules are not the rules the “in crowd” has to follow. That kind of thing. Smoke and mirrors kind of stuff.
Well I’m working tonight and Saturday night so won’t likely be heard from much for a couple of days.
Work hard, then rest easy. We’ll be here when you get back.
Chris,
Well having erupted and disgorged all those chunks of worldview, I find I have nothing to add. There are probably the seeds of at least two full-length books condensed in what you and I posted recently.
hehe, yeah. The world is full of books and people pontificating on what we discussed without much agreement in the end. The enormity of that lack of agreement gives me pause. Because of the widespread disagreement, it makes me wonder whether the drama might be desired?
I don’t see how you could possibly disagree with anything I posted!
Yes, you might joke get the idea that I meant what you wrote, but my point was mankind in general desires drama. 🙂 Has an insatiable appetite for drama.
🙂
Elizabeth, this is an answer for some earlier question of yours but the engine does not put it in the right place so I put it here. You say and ask the same question again after I indicated in a kind manner that the question is wrong.
Now I say it directly: You ask a wrong question and expect me to answer to that question with all your auditing skills:)
This demonstrates 3 things.
1.) You just go ahead with your “auditing question” although there are indications that the question is improper. That is unreasonable.
2.) The method is also a good example of how Scientology operates and trains it’s people: no Q&A. The above demonstrates this one is a wrong practice.
3.) This demonstrates that you are indeed a Scientologist despite saying: “I dont have a religion i dont belong to any group of that kind..” And the statement about people below 2.0 on the tone scale is similarly totalitarian and improper in itself as the practice of no Q & A / TR3 from the part of Scientology.
When I’ve said implant I did not mean a Space Opera definition as in Scientology becasuse I do not beleive in a Space Opera thing as it is told by LRH and implants are really unimportant and unexciting for me. I used the word with an intent to point out that Scientology (as a whole) is a crazy stuff. I used the word “implant” allegorically.
So the question: “only scientology is a implanted item on this planet?” is simply not adequate.
Instead of using Q&A, use logic and try to find out if there can be other cause the person not answering because if there is than either you violate the other either you will be the subject of laugh.
The 9 points, is a riddle. You have 9 points in 3 rows and you should draw a line that passes the 9 points and refracts only 3 times.
Here (at the middle of the page) you can find the 9 points and at the bottom there is the solution. http://www.psy2.org/index.php?n=Psy2.ProblemSolving
Once again, regarding implants, as I told before: Scientology is a model and you will get what the model implies. You can have other models than you will get the results of that model if the model is a bit clever.
But on the road out implants are not relevant unless mentioned in the Vedas;) and this is again only an allegory.
Hi gODd. I think Elizabeth is still having computer problems, so I will reply to your post in the meantime.
1) I’m sure you are right that repeating the “auditing question” (TR 3) wasn’t the reasonable TR in this instance – otherwise, you would not have responded as you did. It probably should have been TR 4, which would have been successful only if you felt satisfied that your origination was handled (otherwise, it really wouldn’t be TR 4).
2) As you can see from the above, TR 3 is not always “how Scientology operates and trains its people”. It’s just one TR and TRs are only one part of Scientology. And the fact that a particular TR may be used incorrectly doesn’t demonstrate it is a wrong practice – this is a mistaken idea on your part. In fact, the reason I wanted to take up your origination (your post) is that I have found most of the time that criticisms of Scn are based on an incomplete or wrong understanding of its various principles. So I thought I would try my best to set things straight.
3) There are quite a few people besides Elizabeth who no longer have Scn as their religion or group even though many of them still find that the principles and tech are valid and valuable.
As for the statement about people below 2.0 on the scale, I’ve noticed that quite a few critics repeat each others’ interpretations on this point and you may have read those. But if you read for yourself the relevant passage in Science of Survival, you will see specifically what LRH said. He was making the point that aberration is contagious and causes a lot of grief to society, and that it would be a workable solution if those below 2.0 were quarantined (2.0 is the dividing line for those who are destructively aberrated). The quarantine would only be done during the time those people were getting auditing to bring them up the tone scale. (Typically, critics leave out parts of this whole idea.)
On the question of whether or not Scientology is the only implanted item, your answer could have been (and still could be) based on your own definition of “implant” since Elizabeth actually uses it in the very broad sense too. In fact, I am pretty sure that she includes more beliefs and considerations than you or I do under the heading of “implants”.
On your point about logic, maybe someone else (Chris, you there?) would be better able to take that up with you. What I wrote above is about all I have to say for now, but I hope it helps.
Btw, I really enjoyed your last sentence: “But on the road out implants are not relevant unless mentioned in the Vedas;) and this is again only an allegory.” 🙂
hehe yup, I’m here Marildi. You really covered that well and with much more energy and enthusiasm than I was willing to invest. I just barely followed their pot-shots. goDd started the fray when he asserted the implant of Scientology which Elizabeth took up the glove and now they ended up with the macabre misunderstanding which you so diligently untangled.
Thanks, Chris! I was hoping you would be the one with the energy and enthusiasm to take a look at the link gODd posted about Problem Solving – and then you could brief me on it ;). But seriously, it seemed interesting.
Anyway, always good to know you’re there. 🙂
the computer would like to let you know that she is in fine order..
LOL
Hi marildi:) Thank you for your response.
One reason I am talking to Elisabeth like this comes from one of her post, which bears the title: “Jesus, on OT to have a headache? She can’t be on OT than!!!” Typical Scientology thinking.
With three exclamation marks:) And we know that Hubbard had two (contradictory) statements on Jesus: One that Jesus was a pedophile and two that he did not exist. There are the audio materials on YouTube.
Now, I am not a Christian, but you know…
In this post Elisabeth also addresses her audience: “Hey bodies.”:D So…
Below 2.0.
LRH speaks very clear on that. He makes an example with a Venezuelan dictator and lepracy. He tells that he collected all the people with lepracy and killed them. Do you duplicate this?:) Any hidden 1.1 message which you can recognize here?:)
The problem is not just that he calls for mess extermination of people, genocide, the other problem is that who will determine which people are below 2.0 on the Tone scale? Do you understand? Who will tell to carantene whom? There are the early days of RPF. Shame on LRH. Maybe is it real for you now, that he not just calls for a carantene, but hypnotizes extermination into his audience. And exactly this is why people staff and SO people (put into their “ivory towers” by policy) begin to dramatize suppression. Actually all Scientologists were put into “ivory towers” as LRH mentioned in a lecture this “ivory tower” stuff…
Now, I ask, how could it be possible, that we have a sect like this in the 21st century and people do not recognize this?
Please, read this as well: http://truelronhubbard.wordpress.com/r2-45/
The whole site is very good indeed. It’s not a vaste of time to study a bit.
And please, how is it possible, that there is a cult based on the teachings of an impostor who almost literally calls for the extermination of his fellow man and yet, there are people who defend and that the cult can legally exist?
And yes, there are good stuff there, we do not know what is LRH out of that and what is not LRH. A scientific examination with goodwill would be necessary on the materials of auditing.
And where I mentioned the Vedas, we already have masters of realization and we already have even whole track knowledge of the very nature of this universe which can be recognized by existing methods and guidance. If auditing makes the way a bit easier than it is welcome. If auditing serve for deification or for the purposes of a totalitarian organization than it is much safe to waste it “without sorrow”.
Hey stupid… harping about my blog won’t do you any good… and it say in the blog, used as a header top of many posts. ””””” my reality, and nobody else’s”””” can’t you duplicate that? Did anyone asked you to believe anything there? Is there any statement in that blog which say This is a gospel truth?
There is a very Scientific explanation in Hungarian about the condition you have and the reason your thinking is what is.
“””Your mother dropped you on your head while you were a baby when your brain was still soft..””” Simple translation= your thinking is mashed as your brain is.. go fly a kite… have a temper tantrum… do whatever pleases you… go for it..
PS; I just thought of another explanation. also a hungarian expression and also indicator of the minds-thinking condition the person is in: HERE IT IS: YOU WERE HIT BY A PUMPKING: translocation same as the above… Now this is a OT talk… really high tone… very theta.. etc…in total reality with the gods….
Elizabeth, please take the edge off the reparte’ as it is unproductive and not allowed on this blog.
Elizabeth, you are sounding like Diogenes at his worst….. Wadda ya need? Some flowers? A smack on the head?? What???
gODd,
I would like to comment on Science of Survival and your take that LRH called “for the extermination” of various classes of people, because I feel you are only considering a small part of the overall picture of what LRH said and proposed. You are focusing only on what he wrote in1951. Many later developments in Scientology put the 1951 writings in perspective.
First off, all human societies already quarantine their own citizens and have done so throughout history.
“Quarantine” is not “extermination”. In fact, “quarantine” of “undesirables” is practiced by most societies on Earth today – do you know of any society that does not imprison people? The USA for example, has one of the largest per capita prison populations in the world, with virtually NO effective rehabilitation available for the imprisoned people. Not to mention countries that run “GULAGs”, like China, North Korea etc etc. Today we do not kill lepers; although throughout history lepers have been “quarantined”. But every society tends to imprison those it considers “criminal” or dangerously “insane”.
It’s a “done deal” that this already happens; LRH was not introducing any new or radical idea here. What is new and radical is that he developed counselling methods that could go a long way towards emptying prisons and “mental hospitals” and “insane asylums”, which methods made it unnecessary to even consider keeping most people imprisoned, much less “exterminating” anyone.
LRH was at worst, trying to put imprisonment on a more rational basis, trying to identify those who would truly be a danger to society. AND, he wrote that book in 1951 – long before Scientology had developed to the point where there was effective rehabilitation tech for any case no matter how difficult. By1970, it was no longer necessary to consider any drastic measures towards chronically low-toned people because they could all be helped come up the tone scale.
If you do not consider the development of Scientology over the next 10-15 years after 1951, yes, you can panic yourself and others by focusing on a limited and outdated view of what LRH said and what he advocated. Science of Survival was still Dianetics, after all.
But why would you do this? Why would you ignore other evidence that contradicts your thesis?
Maybe, like the little chick in the Chicken Little cartoon story, you like to scare yourself and others? Just for the drama?
hehehe…good one Valkov.. your explanation is 100% better than I can do… you educate, I entertain…and I just go for the low tone below the belt thing…
god … put that one in your pipe and smoke it… by now you should be in the state ” fit to be tied”. do Take a aspirin.. or you can lay down have a cold compress on the soft part of the head… also there is a wonderful homeopathic remedy very good for relaxation of the general agitation. “RESCUE REMEDI”
Thank you Dr. Hamre! 🙂 I see you are in a prescribing mode lately.
Yes I am in grumbling mood…nothing aggravates me any more….but when something happens to the garden…. well…… that puts me into thundering mood…
I know what your garden means to you! You have my sympathy ;(
I would like to add that “extermination” is also not that uncommon and has been practiced by supposedly civilized societies quite recently. Even mass extermination, which we now call genocide.
Really, I get the feeling you know very little of the Scientology philosophy and counselling itself and have not read much of LRH or listened to his lectures, because it is obvious from those that he was trying to improve things for people, not make them worse.
It’s a waste of time “cherry-picking” one quote out of a very early work and then making it look like that is the whole story, when he wrote millions of words after that,which paint a different picture. There is no good basis for any realistic discussion here, based on what you have posted. I would suggest you get a copy of Self Analysis and try doing the exercises in it for a few weeks, to get an idea of what Scientoloogy counselling is all about. Maybe get a friend who is also interested in the subject and do the exercises with each other.
valkov, that is a geat advise and you have summoned it up so well… by the way i did the Self Analysis at the begining in the mission and after when i have come back from ST Hill as a full OT7…. I loved it had huge wins at the first time and the second time around had totally different reality of course which blown me out… great fun..
PS: those of you who thinks it did not work on me… well you do it yourself first than re-do it agan… after the OT levels than be the critic..until than zip it….
Valkov, thanks for the above two well-written, informative posts (as usual :)).
One of your all-time best comments was this one:
“It’s a waste of time ‘cherry-picking’ one quote out of a very early work and then making it look like that is the whole story, when he wrote millions of words after that,which paint a different picture.”
Valkov, you are right, I apologise to all of you…. including god….
Accepted! Love you. 🙂
Check out how RPF was run even during Hubbard, maybe you get a broader picture. I guess you won’t do that, would you?
iamvalkov, “why would you ignore other evidence that contradicts your thesis?”
Well, I read the comments on Marty’s blog, and some posters who were there in the RPF when Hubbard was still alive have said it was different back then, than it is now. In any case, we are talking about the Sea Org, and that was intended to have a military-style discipline. There was no RPF for public, Mission staff, or even Org staff back then, especially before 1980. Even today, it is Sea Org staff who are subject to it, not others.
You are not looking at how societies treat their own citizens, like in prisons or in military services. Treatment of people in those situations can be just as harsh as any RPF was. David Miscavige does abuse the RPF and has made it much worse than it ever was under Hubbard. It no longer has anything to do with “rehabilitation”, which was the original intent.
I still have a feeling I have looked at more “evidence” than you have, gODd. I think you have an interest in focusing on the bad and ignoring the good. If you want to evaluate Scientology honestly and fairly, you need to look at both.
To add to your post, on that same thread a poster with the moniker of “Chiun” commented from his long experience in the Sea Org. Here’s an excerpt:
“…The original Sea Org was comprised of Clears and OTs who were AUDiTORS…the top guys who were there to assist Ron….And also, Scientology – when applied at a tone level between 1.1 and 2.0 – will be directed towards succumb, not survive… At least when LRH was here, there was always the hope that ARC and correct evaluation would triumph over misapplication. When DM took over…that was the end of that hope from my point of view. Only it took a while for all the high-toned SO guys to become either enturbulated or surrounded by so much entheta that they got dwarfed by it…or who objected to the misapplications and were gotten rid of.”
Hi iamvalkov, thank you for your response. I’ve really looked at both the good and the bad. Throughout this blog I was always stressing that there are workable parts of Scientology. I find auditing workable, especially before the OT levels, but not everything of it. And the question with the OT levels are the bogus theory.
Over the years of my looking at the facts I found that there are more things against Scientology than on it’s side.
Over the years I was in Scientology I also found many contradictions.
Here is a quote from Hubbard: “Now, one of the biggest control factors there is, is mystery. Mystery is a tremendous control factor. The presentation of a mystery can operate to enslave.”
–Component Parts of Beingnessingness, 4 June 1955, from the lecture series Anatomy of the Spirit of Man Congress
He said derogatory things of “mystery” schools which keep inner teachings secret. Than he came out with the OT levels:)
And when he goes into mysticism it is interesting to look at his problem with the third eye:
“LRH: Don’t get a visio? You supposed to have a third eye
in the middle of your forehead?” (Introduction to the E-meter – tape)
or:
“After I ran it for a while, experimented with it a bit
more, located it in other people, and ran into something I
had known of in mysticism – the third eye. This eye of the
soul, the jewel eye, so forth, lot of complimentary things
about this. And then suddenly located circuits. The second
I located this, I located circuits.” (Discovery of Facsimile One)
he speaks about the third eye here again:
“Sometimes in an excess of enthusiasm the thetan runs into this center point of view of the body, which is in the middle of the forehead, and which has been called, since time immemorial, the “Third eye”. It is the viewpoint of dimension of the GE and the body. It has not very much to do with the thetan. And that’s right here, at.. in the front of the forehead, here. It’s uh.. marked with “0”.” (The Doctorate Series Course for OTs)
The point is this: the “third eye” is a symbol. It is not a physical thing. The third eye is a symbol for knowledge and knowing independent of the physical body. Third eye would be “seeing in the fullest sense of the word”:) and has nothing to do with the GE or the body as LRH states. There is nothing mysterious about it and it is Hubbard who gives (again) a wrong definition of something. Maybe he has the definition from Crowley. But nevertheless he demonstrates that he is not authentic in the subject and he does not know the source.
If third eye (which is a symbol for let’s say this way “total knowledge”) is an implant, than what is Total Freedom?:)
If you would be a bit more familiar with core Indian and Tibetan spirituality and would have some real understanding of it you would also question Hubbard. And you would also question Hubbard on such basic things which otherwise seems extremely real, like engrams.
But instead of getting first hand knowledge we say: “Oh, Hubbard was a genius, he was ahead of India which had no technology at all. He was also ahead of Buddha, who although knew how to exteriorize people, but had no technology and could not reach a stable state.” Sorry, but all these statements are nonsense.
And if you want to evaluate Scientology honestly and fairly, you too need to look at both, iamvalkov. Or put it under scientific testing.
Now, regarding the RPF, you should check some first hand experiences of those who observed how LRH put people onto the RPF and his conduct during that time. You should also check out Burroughs’ writing on the subject, how he was handled for his criticism of the Church that time when LRH was close.
gODd, we could go round and round about those quotes you posted. I interpret them differently, apparently. You do not give your interpretation of them, but they seem to have some significance to you, that they do not have for me.
I believe the “third eye” LRH refers to is the pineal gland, which is not the fully functioning organ it once was. This is I believe according to some particular Tibetan or Nepali teachings. As such,it is a part of the body and has a literal physical meaning, as well as a more subtle meaning.
AsI said,I have read some accounts of the early RPF under LRH and it seems to be very different from what it is now under Miscavige. However I cannot read the accounts you are referring to, because you have not posted any links to them or indicated where they can be found.
You make statements about my lack of knowledge of this and that, but you don’t know what I know or what I understand.Just because it appears so far, that I disagree with some of your conclusions/evaluations, does not mean I know less than you, on the subjects you mention.
What is your first language, if I may ask?
Hi again gODd 🙂
Believe me, I have heard and read about each of these things you bring up. And I’ve learned that the different viewpoints depend quite a bit on whose “data” and on which website you look. You may not be familiar with http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/index_scientology.html but at least on that site he backs up his data with documents – which he has gone to the trouble of proving their authenticity. It’s a huge site and you can search it for just about any point about Scientology that you’re interested in.
I do understand what you’re saying about LRH’s statements in SOS but I hope you also consider the whole picture – what Valkov wrote up in his comments to you. One thing I have to say is that when you make a comment like “LRH hypnotizes extermination into his audience”, it doesn’t serve you well in terms of how rational you come across. In other words, I don’t think that something written in a book can be twisted and interpreted as hypnotizing – unless someone wants to exaggerate and make their criticism even worse. Did you come to that conclusion yourself, or did you get it from someone else? Anyway, you should avoid this type of radical extreme so that I and others are more willing to seriously consider your viewpoints 😉
And btw, the only thing I’ve ever read or heard about “ivory towers” is that C/S’es are supposed to be in one (figuratively speaking) so that they don’t get influenced by auditors or pc’s or execs or whomever, instead of only applying standard tech to their C/S’ing.
On the other side of the coin, something you said that was very rational and I really agree with was this: “A scientific examination with goodwill would be necessary on the materials of auditing”. The “with goodwill” part was especially well said on your part. That reminds me of one of the most important things I’ve learned in all these blog discussions, which is that when Scn is applied with good intention, it works out well – and when it isn’t, it doesn’t.
This is why I like to differentiate when using the word “Scientology” – if you are talking about its practice in the C of S after the early decades, I’m a critic just like you. But when someone starts referring generally to “Scientology” as a cult, etc. etc. – then the differentiation isn’t being made.
Btw, you quoted Elizabeth as saying “Jesus, on OT to have a headache? She can’t be on OT than!!!”. I remember that blog post of hers and what you didn’t duplicate is that she was talking about what someone else said, who was accusing her of not being an OT because she had said something about having a headache. You also have to remember that English is not Elizabeth’s first language and sometimes you have to read through the spelling, grammar or vocabulary errors. Plus, she likes to say extreme, uninhibited things sometimes, but doesn’t much mean them and will back right off if you just get in comm with her.
Hey, once again, I really liked the way you ended your post:
“If auditing makes the way a bit easier than it is welcome. If auditing serve for deification or for the purposes of a totalitarian organization than it is much safe to waste it “without sorrow”.
In that, we are basically in full agreement, you and I 🙂 It is fair and rational comments like that one which make me want to communicate with a person even though our viewpoints differ on various things. Plus, in your case, I’ve seen you have a cute sense of humor from time to time on your comments. Like when you said, “not relevant unless mentioned in the Vedas” and then you added a wink. 🙂
Hi marildi:)
I’ve just tried to check out one item from wiseoldgoat: FairGAme. I must admit, I could not reach the end of the page:) My English is not perfect to say the least and it is really complicated for me to go through all he wrote.
But here is a much shorter page:
http://truelronhubbard.wordpress.com/r2-45/
and I tend to believe that who writes such things: “They are declared enemies of mankind” or “run on reverse processes” can’t be a sane person.
And you must know my viewpoint on upper level materials from my earlier comments.
Anyway I’ve just read an interesting part from Science of Survival and at the beginning of the book Ron speaks about realities. For me it is quite real that Ron wanted to distribute and establish his own reality on OT incidents (and on everything else) whatever the actual truth is. By the way, in the Vedas there are not much emphasis on aliens:) but yogis (as well condemned by LRH) despite the fact that does not deal much with aliens reached realization time to time and yoga despite what is said by LRH does not trap the thetan into the body. I think he just wanted to close out the “competition” with unsportsmanlike false and critical statements. This is my viewpoint. Prove it to be false and I am willing to change it. Love.
Same to you, gODd – thank you so much for all your replies! It’s obvious to me that you (and some other critics too) are basically doing the same thing that I and others of the opposite viewpoint to yours are doing – we’re all trying to help each other not be misinformed, misguided, misled… Interesting, huh? 😉
As for the wiseoldgoat site, I know what you mean about it not being so easy to read sometimes. It was for that reason that I posted, on a previous thread on this blog, some selected excerpts from his writeup on Fair Game. Here’s the link to the first of the excerpts I postedDDDD: https://isene.wordpress.com/2011/12/26/thought-experiment-series-evaluation-of-scientology/
Altogether you’ll see 4 different posts of mine with excerpts, and comments from posters in between. I think it would be great if wanted to check out the 4 excerpts and get a lot of little-known data on the subject of Fair Game that wiseoldgoat diligently researched – his write-up is based on a chronological sequence of events and LRH issues and their revisions and clarifications, etc. It’s a great example of how things get twisted out of shape by critics who have missing data.
Now mind you, it’s not that I think you haven’t got some very interesting points that you make, and in the past I probably would have been interested in checking out those sites you name and getting into all those things. But now, for me it’s come down to the quote from Marty’s book that I posted, to the effect that it doesn’t really matter what LRH did or didn’t do, or what Scn is or isn’t as an organization – rather, it’s like you said too: What proves to workable is by far the thing that counts at this point.
One thing I haven’t been able to see yet is that you are differentiating Scn from altered Scn by the C of S – or even by LRH himself in the later years (though that is the lesser factor, IMHO). As an example of why I think its important, if you noticed in one commment of yours you were talking about Scientologists being in an Ivory Tower and Maria replied with a disagreement about that – and it seemed to me that you were talking about Scn’ists in the C of S and she was referring to those like you and me, who have left. I still say that if we differentiate between the two meanings, and especially differentiate what we mean by “Scientology”, there won’t be so much waste of effort in the discussions.
As a matter of fact, though,I found your comments about Buddhism and other things to be very interesting, and this is the direction Geir and others want to go in – not so much the pros and cons of Scientology. It’s gotten overrun, don’t you think?
Thanks for all your ARC, interspersed here and there. Love back. 🙂
p.s. Backing up what wiseoldgoat found is Marty’s latest blog post, based on his inside knowledge and experience. He sums up the overwhelming opposition LRH was up against back in the years of Fair Game, and how he came to fight fire with fire – and thus succeeded in saving the practice of Scientology. To Marty’s credit, he also points out where LRH eventually got carried away in his own personal reactions and condemnation of “psychs”.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/scientology-inc-versus-the-psychs/#comments
I meant “hypnotizing” as “telling over and over again while the audience believes it to be the way it is said”.
“ivory towers”
Scientologists are in ivory towers. They can’t have data from the internet on Scientology, they can’t listen to critics of Scientology. Staff and SO are even more in ivory towers. When I was in the SO I did not even know what BIG political changes were on the planet by that time.
That is ivory tower.
Regarding Elizabeth:
“Plus, she likes to say extreme, uninhibited things sometimes, but doesn’t much mean them and will back right off if you just get in comm with her.”
That is exactly why I said things like that to her. Tried to shake her up. I’ve failed and was regulated:) But at least I was communicating to her. She did not appreciated although she was begging for communication earlier:)
I know Hungary. I’ve had Hungarian girlfriend. I tell you, that is different reality in every aspect. Elisabeth is proud for being Hungarian and linked a short history of Hungary above.
Let’s see the roots:
I know that Hungarians are proud both of settling in Hungary and becoming Christians although it was Christianity which suppressed the original faith of Hungary. It was Christianity which suppressed the faith of those who settled and in the name of Christianity those who wanted to keep their faith were brutally massacred.
There is a famous square in Hungary the Heroes Square
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hősök_tere
It was built for celebrating the settlement but with statues of Saint Stephen and statues of kings of the Christian times.
Hungarians just does not recognize the conflict. Weird.
Otherwise, it is almost the same story we have in Scientology;)
Thank you for your replies and have a nice day, marildi:)
goDd:
You commented that Scientologists are in “ivory towers” amongst other comments.
The ivory tower rule has little to do with what you are suggesting. There is an excellent description of it on the Clearbird site at this URL: http://www.sgmt.at/ClearbirdE2010/Clearbird2004/sub2/class5_cs/02getdata.htm
Here is a quote from it that is a good definition for it:
“The Grade Chart is the basic program you want the pc to do. It is laid out in a fashion to make a natural succession of steps to go through for almost all pc’s. The C/S still needs to know if the pc is ready for the next Grade or has some special situation or problem that needs to be looked at first. The Grades aren’t “one size fits all”. But they do cover the basic skills and abilities any thetan needs to improve on and master in order to improve his state of beingness. It’s much like “Reading, Writing and Arithmetic” are for school children you could say.
A skilled C/S knows that he has to maintain two-way communication with the pc’s case. He does that through the auditor and folder. He can order special interviews, etc. BUT WOULD NEVER DISCUSS THE PC’S CASE WITH THE PC NOR DO INTERVIEWS OF THE PC PERSONALLY. THAT’S IVORY TOWER RULE. But he still has to be sensitive and responsive to the pc, much as the auditor has to be sensitive to his individual pc’s special problems and unique situation. A pc who feels his special situation and needs are duplicated and understood feels safe and in good hands. He feels the maxim of Auditors Trust has been expanded. Now it is Auditor plus Pc plus C/S is greater than the Pc’s Bank. There is a strategist behind the scenes that makes the pc’s Bank look the size of a pea.”
As regards the Scientologists, I don’t think that they are applying the “ivory tower” at all. They discuss and evaluate each others cases and the cases of the world around them just as much as any other person does, and perhaps even more! Having found ideas not to their liking, they choose to disconnect, ignoring contrary or antipathetic ideas and people. This is disconnection, not ivory tower. Of course, what I am saying here is so general as to be ridiculous — so I will carry this one step further. This is what people in general do – having found ideas not to their liking, they choose to disconnect, ignoring contrary or antipathetic ideas and people. Same old, same old.
As regards LRH’s contempt for gurus and elitist intellectuals who live in “ivory towers,” I think you will enjoy this wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_Tower
gODd, here’s an excerpt from Marty’s upcoming book titled – What Is Wrong With Scientology?: Healing Through Understanding. I think it hits the mark as the thing to remember about LRH and Scientology.
“He [LRH] noted in one of his final journals to Scientologists that his legacy would be the technology he would leave behind – not his personality, not his biography, not his recognitions and awards, not any God-like abilities that others must continue to create in their minds and rely upon, and not his frailties and shortcomings… True, the church of Scientology is dead, for all intents and purposes. But that is an organization, a corporate conglomerate. Scientology itself is a religious philosophy, and that has not died. A philosophy cannot be killed, any more than an idea can be extinguished.”
Regarding the technology, this word is too synthetic for me. It has no spiritual meaning, no life, no higher consciousness involved but pure mechanics. And this point is really very key. Life can’t be 100% mechanical as the source of life is theta which is not mechanical and Life is theta. But nevertheless, call it technology, I’ve found technology many time unworkable when applied on me. Now you can say the jolly joker:) it was not applied 100%:) What is 100% if absolutes are unobtainable? Besides, maybe it just does not work in every situation or for everyone. It is a serious outpoint that this option is ruled out. And it is a serious outpoint if not observed. What if technology is just 50, 30 or less percent workable…? I rather think this later is the case.
Technology applied 100% to individuals cannot possibly produce 100% result all the time. See http://isene.com/process.pdf
Individuals represent unknown input, and it is illogical to promote 100% results upon application of a methodology, system or technology.
gODd, you said: “I’ve found technology many times unworkable when applied on me. Now you can say the jolly joker:) it was not applied 100%.”
LOL on that one! (“the jolly joker: it was not applied 100%” :D)
After reading many comments like yours, disagreeing with the 100% claim, I have come to see that you are probably right about it not being true. But I think the percentage is more than 30 and even more than 50%. That has been my experience on different flows.
I know what you mean about terms like “technology” not being spiritual sounding. I think that’s the scientific aspect of Scn. But the tech is not actually mechanical. A well-trained auditor knows that “100% standard application” does not mean a fixed and rote thing at all. An important part of that standard tech is being flexible and auditing the pc in front of you. Did you know LRH said that auditing is both a science and an art? Think about that…
Have a really nice day yourself! 🙂
Isene, this is truly the longest thread I’ve ever seen. wow.
Just wanted to add that your last line in the article was Spot On… LOL!
Oh, there are much longer threads on this blog…
PK, how do I search this blog for specific posts? Is this possible? I have recently ( past 2-3 months,maybe) made a couple of posts about ECT, with links. Now I can’t locate the post(s).
Is it possible to search for posts with specific content?
Hi Val. I asked Geir the same question not long ago. In the Google search line, type “isene.wordpress.com” (without the quotes) and then ECT, or whatever you’re looking for.
p.s. I just tried “ECT” – no go. But “Electroconvulsive” brought up the thread “A Talk on Scientology”.
Valkov — you have to type:
site:isene.wordpress.com
No spaces. Then you can type the word(s) you want to search for after that, like this:
site:isene.wordpress.com ECT
Thanks folks. I was doing that! Being the lazy person I am, I was hoping Google could pull up the exact post(s) that had the search term in them, but apparently the best the Big G can do is pull up the threads?
Google might give you each and every comment IF you searched for the word or phrase that you had used in every one of those posts – if you did uniformly use a particular word or phrase.
But just go to “A Talk on Scientology”, click on “Edit” at the top of the page and then, on the bar “Find on this page”, type in “electroconvulsive”, and I think you’ll find at least one or two of those posts of yours – or type any other word you recall using. Or you can type in “Valkov” and check out all your posts, where your name will then be highlighted. Capiche?