All right, looks like I can write anything about Scientology on this thread.
Well, here is a post that I wrote on Marty’s blog, which, for some reason, has not gotten out of moderation queue for some time. It was written in response to Grasshopper’s criticism of Marty.
This is a good rebuttal. You shine in this post. Nobody can decide for another at what point one has graduated from Scientology. As I indicated elsewhere, Scientology is just the tip of an iceberg. There is massive social, cultural, and moral conditiong too. Read Nietsche.
Nobody can cure another, but the person himself. All you can do is to provide simple instructions from the sincerity of your heart. Such instructions must be offered freely without expectations and with no strings attached. It is like throwing seeds into the wind. Some seeds may germinate now. Others may germinate centuries later. That is what Buddha did.
The goal should not be to simply graduate from Scientology. The goal should be to resolve inconsistencies and make one’s way toward complete absence of conditioning. Buddha called this state Nirvana.
The argument should not just revolve around Hubbard or Scientology. The argument is much bigger. It revolves aound social, cultural and moral contexts. You should also keep that in mind.
Scientology is not all wrong because it contains knowledge from sources other than Hubbard. Hubbard is not all wrong because in his sane moments, he did contribute positively to the subject of knowledge. I am very aware of that.
By simply focusing on Hubbard and Scientology, we may completely miss some bigger sources of conditioning and also those of enlightenment.
The aberration that I see here is fixed attention on Hubbard and Scientology. See Inconsistency in KHTK
We need to widen the context here.
Sincerely,
Vinaire
” complete absence of conditioning. Buddha called this state Nirvana. ” . Vinay, your definition of this nirvana state is very interesting. I hope one day you will elaborate on it: how much it lasts, how long takes to achieve it, how much it lasts, it is needed to be a scientist to feel such state, etc.
Rafael, To me mindfulness is all about deconditioning oneself. It was the centerpiece of Buddha’s “technology”. A mindfulness exercise that focuses on inconsistencies is “Mindfulness 11: Contemplate thoughtfully” on my blog.
NOTE: This is not meant to be a promotion of my blog. My blog is doing fine on its own.
vinaire | September 15, 2014 at 7:31 am | Reply
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Marty: “My turn of focus is beyond emotion or intuition. It is practical, almost even simply mathematical. I have so much time – and even that is no longer my own. Given the effort vs demand/reward it is impractical to work with damaged people who consider themselves not just undamaged, but in many ways superior to most.”
Yes, that is true. But, pray, tell me who is not damaged in this world?
We are all damaged and crippled to one degree or another; and yet we are trying to become whole by helping each other. That is the attitude, which must be supported.
Vinnie… Marty is talking about those that continue to support LRH while he has taken the time to deconstruct Scientology.
Some do appear to be Superior and unyielding to hear one thing unfavorable to LRH/ Scientology.
They attack and defend at all costs. They have also Bullbaited Marty and others.
He has taken his blog to another level. He has made that quite clear. He has explained ad nauseam what he is attempting to do.
Yes, we are all damaged I agree, but he is attempting to reach those who have been damaged and crippled by Scientology.
For example, If you went to a blog that discussed the seriousness of dog bites and you responded, ” Well, sure dog bites are serious what about Lion bites? Your response on that blog wouldn’t be posted either.
BB, you are right, of course. However, Marty took a long time before he moderated this and the other post to Grasshopper above. I wondered why he took so long. He approved one and rejected the other. Anyway, my considerations are simply as follows.
(1) People who consider themselves “not just undamaged, but in many ways superior to most”, are in fact damaged also (Marty knows that).
(2) Such people are in many ways confused too, They have simply plugged in Scientogy beliefs to restrain those confusions. Marildi and Valkov fall in this category.
(3) Marty seemed to be mercilessly pounding on them, even when they were trying to look at some of the irrationality of Hubbard. It seemed to me that they were not opposing Marty, but struggling against their own conditioning.
(4) I felt that Marty should have been going a bit easier with them, and recognizing their struggle.
(5) Marty himself has used Scientology to the benefit of others, so we cannot just slam Scientology complety. He needs to be a bit more clear about correct and incorrect use of Scientology.
(6) My post was about the attitude one should take toward “damaged people.” Some are tough to handle, and it can be very frustrating for a person like Marty who is trying to handle them.
(7) Personally, I would go easy on them and let them work through their confusions. My personal approach is documented in APPLICATION OF MINDFUL DISCUSSION on my blog. (NOTE: this is not intended as a promotion of my blog).
Vin:”…They have simply plugged in Scientogy beliefs to restrain those confusions. Marildi and Valkov fall in this category.”
BB:”… If you went to a blog that discussed the seriousness of dog bites…”
The biggest problem that people like Marildi, Valkov, myself and a few others run into on the blogs is that we weren’t bitten by THE DOG. In fact, we saw a number of dogs, some very helpful like a Saint Bernie rescuing a lost wanderer from the snow. However, if you talk about a Saint Bernie, or that there wasn’t just THE DOG but a bunch of dogs, then you tend to run into another pack of snarlers led by a new old-handler convinced that anyone who wasn’t bitten by THE DOG is delusional or under the hypnotic influence of THE DOG.
I am not wholly disputing that a hypnotic influence cannot occur in the “education” of some, but just as suredly I’d say that what is passing for “re-education” or de-cultification can have an equal hypnotic effect. To put that line in perspective, just think back to stories of vigilante justice in the old “wild west” days where a guy is standing on the wagon getting everyone stirred up to march on the jail.( At least Americans should understand that reference.) The thing is, it is very easy to stir up already struggling people and get them out with their pitchforks looking for witches or other scoundrel. The lawman in the white hat asking for rational conduct has a much tougher time getting the group settled down than it took the witch hunter to get them roused for blood.
I am not saying that ex and damaged Scns are now like that witch hunter pack, but what I am saying is that the charge we all carry from former betrayals on help is the basis for the same hypnotic effect to take place as is the cultish education that says “This is true because it was written. Nothing else is true.” So in the cultish education, George never gets permitted to make his synthesis, and yet in this blogspace of re-education no new synthesis is permitted to go unattacked either. Little to no allowance is permitted for separation of valuable data from valueless/harmful data.
Vinnie touched on this with “(5) Marty himself has used Scientology to the benefit of others, so we cannot just slam Scientology complety. He needs to be a bit more clear about correct and incorrect use of Scientology.”
Talking about the correct and incorrect use of Scn is the sort of balanced viewpoint that I would like to see and even participate in significantly. Over the years I have evolved my own George-ian synthesis of data and that synthesis has been enormously helpful in my own spiritual advance. In the time since we have gotten to the point of sharing or discussing our cases I have often been surprised at how many of my realizations have been corroborated by the independent observations of others. That alone indicates to me that there is truth and possibility on the spiritual path.
It is that path that I will pursue with vigor but it does pain me to see those once on a similar path now in denial that such a path exists or that it can be traveled with safety. I feel comfortable in saying that it can be traveled and it doesn’t take anything like a cult to travel it. But one does have to be more than a spectator: there are certain understandings of the nature of the being that have to be achieved either by gaining knowledge or by unlocking the doors that keep that knowledge, alone, from effecting a spiritual advance.
“But one does have to be more than a spectator: there are certain understandings of the nature of the being that have to be achieved either by gaining knowledge or by unlocking the doors that keep that knowledge, alone, from effecting a spiritual advance.”
Vinnie.. As a counselor I recognize that Marty has been working for a very long time holding hands, patiently guiding them through the haze of the Mind control known as Scientology.
Marty stated on his blog Aug 8th 2014 .. Back to the Middle.
” If you want positive reinforcement for your faith, you will not find it here; but for possibly in the comments section where scientologists are free to provide their views with everyone else. There is an evolution afoot that perhaps ought be shared with readers here.”
He has been leading up to this for at least a year. He is stating he is not a Scientologist. He is not an Indie.
He has been writing his blog for 6 years. He has crawled out of the mire and into the sunshine.
He has responded to posters nicely with ” It is not necessary to word clear” or ” Please don’t quote LRH” Now we are talking years…
And people still do. He says one thing and others will fight with him. Good God he is NOT a Saint. He is attempting to bring others to a higher level away from Scientology. Where they can have critical thinking skills and not be under the Mind F*ck.
You can not deny that this hasn’t happened. He has gone extremely easy on ” them.” It is up to them to process information as he gives it.
As we all know for others to decompress there is NO time table…
Weeks, Months , Years or sadly Never.
I have seen him tediously explain something to someone and that person comes back fighting.. ” You are stupid, that’s NOT what LRH said ..
What POLICY is that?” Over and Over and Over and over…and over. DOX!
I am a big supporter of Marty’s. I have observed him coming out of the fog to the mountain top.
I have changed. I used to scream at the highest mountain top that the Tech doesn’t work. Well, if someone says the tech works/ worked for them..
I at least recognize that it was probably something Hubbard stole.
I personally think that Marty has displayed the patience of a Saint.
He has helped so many. He is evolving. Thank God.
I have also seen others on his site, Geir’s blog and Milestone2 who change their responses depending on the blog.
‘…fall in this category’ (whatever category, btw)
It reminds me of a process when i was asked to go out into
the street and answer to ‘ are you willing to not know something
about that person?’ (of persons one by one who were walking by)
Well, the outcome was hilarious! E. Tolle says similar….
Vin, what category do you put me into? Please, name it.
‘As YOU like it’…YOU make ‘me’. If you prefer your question
‘hanging’ in the timeless space, it’s fine with me. Or answer it
mindfully.
Fundamentally, I believe, that we are a large lake of awareness. Whirlpools form in this lake and lead to individual selves. The following is my model, which is too big to put on this post in toto.
We have Self at one end of the spectrum and no-self at the other end. In between lie the gradients that make up the mind. The mind gets more dense as one moves toward self. Self is the most dense part of the mind.
Nirvana lies at the no-self end of the spectrum. That is ground state.
________________________________
And if George is open about being a scientologist, he’s a laughing stock too, I bet.
How on earth can he ever ‘let go’, enough to begin to actually ‘look’ at what he’s stuck to, if he doesn’t recognize he’s effectively been put under a hypnotic spell?
Not impossible to undo this, fortunately 🙂
>>”George, On the count of three, you WILL wake up, feeling refreshed, and have regained your ability let things go, whenever YOU choose. One, two, three….wake UP George!”
>>”How are you doing, George?”………..
( Just another effective way to unstick “stuckness”.) 🙂
I just posted the following on Marty’s blog. Hope he approves it.
“I think that it is very important that people follow Buddha’s Kalama Sutta with respect to Marty’s Blog as much as with respect to Scientology and Hubbard.”
I have just posted the following for Pete the anti-Scientologist on Marty’s blog. It is under moderation.
When a person is moving through his life as if hypnotized, the entrance point to resolving his case is attention. Maybe his attention was free when he was a child, but now he adheres to irrational beliefs and strange rituals to get by in life. This is because he has a lot of unresolved inconsistencies stacked on top of each other.
He does not recognize the inconsistency that is so obvious to you because he has probably explained it to himself as “life”. Such earlier inconsistencies are somehow taken for granted by him because his attention is now on inconsistencies stacked on top of them.
The inconsistency available to be resolved in any case is the one where the person’s attention now rests.
.
An inconsistency becomes obvious to you only after you have resolved it for yourself. There may be other inconsistencies in you that you are not yet aware of. As you see in others those inconsistencies that you have resolved for yourself, you want others to resolve them too. But you do not know how inconsistencies are stacked up in the other person. He may need to resolve some other inconsistency first.
But if you feel compelled that the other person should be resolving some inconsistency that is so very obvious to you, then there is something wrong with your effort. You are trying to bypass the order in which inconsistencies are stacked up in his case. This compulsion points to some inconsistency in you that you are not aware of.
Compulsion to “help” another get rid of some aberration, is an inconsistency within oneself that one is usually not aware.
.
Geir Isene - uncut 
All right, looks like I can write anything about Scientology on this thread.
Well, here is a post that I wrote on Marty’s blog, which, for some reason, has not gotten out of moderation queue for some time. It was written in response to Grasshopper’s criticism of Marty.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2014/09/13/deconstructing-scientology-2/#comment-318158
Mark (Grasshopper),
This is a good rebuttal. You shine in this post. Nobody can decide for another at what point one has graduated from Scientology. As I indicated elsewhere, Scientology is just the tip of an iceberg. There is massive social, cultural, and moral conditiong too. Read Nietsche.
Nobody can cure another, but the person himself. All you can do is to provide simple instructions from the sincerity of your heart. Such instructions must be offered freely without expectations and with no strings attached. It is like throwing seeds into the wind. Some seeds may germinate now. Others may germinate centuries later. That is what Buddha did.
The goal should not be to simply graduate from Scientology. The goal should be to resolve inconsistencies and make one’s way toward complete absence of conditioning. Buddha called this state Nirvana.
The argument should not just revolve around Hubbard or Scientology. The argument is much bigger. It revolves aound social, cultural and moral contexts. You should also keep that in mind.
Scientology is not all wrong because it contains knowledge from sources other than Hubbard. Hubbard is not all wrong because in his sane moments, he did contribute positively to the subject of knowledge. I am very aware of that.
By simply focusing on Hubbard and Scientology, we may completely miss some bigger sources of conditioning and also those of enlightenment.
The aberration that I see here is fixed attention on Hubbard and Scientology. See Inconsistency in KHTK
We need to widen the context here.
Sincerely,
Vinaire
Well, it just got approved. Good!
” complete absence of conditioning. Buddha called this state Nirvana. ” . Vinay, your definition of this nirvana state is very interesting. I hope one day you will elaborate on it: how much it lasts, how long takes to achieve it, how much it lasts, it is needed to be a scientist to feel such state, etc.
Rafael, To me mindfulness is all about deconditioning oneself. It was the centerpiece of Buddha’s “technology”. A mindfulness exercise that focuses on inconsistencies is “Mindfulness 11: Contemplate thoughtfully” on my blog.
NOTE: This is not meant to be a promotion of my blog. My blog is doing fine on its own.
Thanks Vinay, I will read it.
Well the following post to Marty got shitcanned. It is no longer there. It was in response to Marty.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2014/09/13/deconstructing-scientology-2/#comment-318179
vinaire | September 15, 2014 at 7:31 am | Reply
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Marty: “My turn of focus is beyond emotion or intuition. It is practical, almost even simply mathematical. I have so much time – and even that is no longer my own. Given the effort vs demand/reward it is impractical to work with damaged people who consider themselves not just undamaged, but in many ways superior to most.”
Yes, that is true. But, pray, tell me who is not damaged in this world?
We are all damaged and crippled to one degree or another; and yet we are trying to become whole by helping each other. That is the attitude, which must be supported.
Vinnie… Marty is talking about those that continue to support LRH while he has taken the time to deconstruct Scientology.
Some do appear to be Superior and unyielding to hear one thing unfavorable to LRH/ Scientology.
They attack and defend at all costs. They have also Bullbaited Marty and others.
He has taken his blog to another level. He has made that quite clear. He has explained ad nauseam what he is attempting to do.
Yes, we are all damaged I agree, but he is attempting to reach those who have been damaged and crippled by Scientology.
For example, If you went to a blog that discussed the seriousness of dog bites and you responded, ” Well, sure dog bites are serious what about Lion bites? Your response on that blog wouldn’t be posted either.
BB, you are right, of course. However, Marty took a long time before he moderated this and the other post to Grasshopper above. I wondered why he took so long. He approved one and rejected the other. Anyway, my considerations are simply as follows.
(1) People who consider themselves “not just undamaged, but in many ways superior to most”, are in fact damaged also (Marty knows that).
(2) Such people are in many ways confused too, They have simply plugged in Scientogy beliefs to restrain those confusions. Marildi and Valkov fall in this category.
(3) Marty seemed to be mercilessly pounding on them, even when they were trying to look at some of the irrationality of Hubbard. It seemed to me that they were not opposing Marty, but struggling against their own conditioning.
(4) I felt that Marty should have been going a bit easier with them, and recognizing their struggle.
(5) Marty himself has used Scientology to the benefit of others, so we cannot just slam Scientology complety. He needs to be a bit more clear about correct and incorrect use of Scientology.
(6) My post was about the attitude one should take toward “damaged people.” Some are tough to handle, and it can be very frustrating for a person like Marty who is trying to handle them.
(7) Personally, I would go easy on them and let them work through their confusions. My personal approach is documented in APPLICATION OF MINDFUL DISCUSSION on my blog. (NOTE: this is not intended as a promotion of my blog).
(8) Hopefully you can see where I am coming from.
.
Very good comment, Vin
Vin:”…They have simply plugged in Scientogy beliefs to restrain those confusions. Marildi and Valkov fall in this category.”
BB:”… If you went to a blog that discussed the seriousness of dog bites…”
The biggest problem that people like Marildi, Valkov, myself and a few others run into on the blogs is that we weren’t bitten by THE DOG. In fact, we saw a number of dogs, some very helpful like a Saint Bernie rescuing a lost wanderer from the snow. However, if you talk about a Saint Bernie, or that there wasn’t just THE DOG but a bunch of dogs, then you tend to run into another pack of snarlers led by a new old-handler convinced that anyone who wasn’t bitten by THE DOG is delusional or under the hypnotic influence of THE DOG.
I am not wholly disputing that a hypnotic influence cannot occur in the “education” of some, but just as suredly I’d say that what is passing for “re-education” or de-cultification can have an equal hypnotic effect. To put that line in perspective, just think back to stories of vigilante justice in the old “wild west” days where a guy is standing on the wagon getting everyone stirred up to march on the jail.( At least Americans should understand that reference.) The thing is, it is very easy to stir up already struggling people and get them out with their pitchforks looking for witches or other scoundrel. The lawman in the white hat asking for rational conduct has a much tougher time getting the group settled down than it took the witch hunter to get them roused for blood.
I am not saying that ex and damaged Scns are now like that witch hunter pack, but what I am saying is that the charge we all carry from former betrayals on help is the basis for the same hypnotic effect to take place as is the cultish education that says “This is true because it was written. Nothing else is true.” So in the cultish education, George never gets permitted to make his synthesis, and yet in this blogspace of re-education no new synthesis is permitted to go unattacked either. Little to no allowance is permitted for separation of valuable data from valueless/harmful data.
Vinnie touched on this with “(5) Marty himself has used Scientology to the benefit of others, so we cannot just slam Scientology complety. He needs to be a bit more clear about correct and incorrect use of Scientology.”
Talking about the correct and incorrect use of Scn is the sort of balanced viewpoint that I would like to see and even participate in significantly. Over the years I have evolved my own George-ian synthesis of data and that synthesis has been enormously helpful in my own spiritual advance. In the time since we have gotten to the point of sharing or discussing our cases I have often been surprised at how many of my realizations have been corroborated by the independent observations of others. That alone indicates to me that there is truth and possibility on the spiritual path.
It is that path that I will pursue with vigor but it does pain me to see those once on a similar path now in denial that such a path exists or that it can be traveled with safety. I feel comfortable in saying that it can be traveled and it doesn’t take anything like a cult to travel it. But one does have to be more than a spectator: there are certain understandings of the nature of the being that have to be achieved either by gaining knowledge or by unlocking the doors that keep that knowledge, alone, from effecting a spiritual advance.
I am finding that much can be resolved with mindful discussions, and it is actually a lot of fun.
>
“But one does have to be more than a spectator: there are certain understandings of the nature of the being that have to be achieved either by gaining knowledge or by unlocking the doors that keep that knowledge, alone, from effecting a spiritual advance.”
I absolutely agree with you 2nd… Absolutely..
…in my view this is a vid which is worth listening to
Vinnie.. As a counselor I recognize that Marty has been working for a very long time holding hands, patiently guiding them through the haze of the Mind control known as Scientology.
Marty stated on his blog Aug 8th 2014 .. Back to the Middle.
” If you want positive reinforcement for your faith, you will not find it here; but for possibly in the comments section where scientologists are free to provide their views with everyone else. There is an evolution afoot that perhaps ought be shared with readers here.”
He has been leading up to this for at least a year. He is stating he is not a Scientologist. He is not an Indie.
He has been writing his blog for 6 years. He has crawled out of the mire and into the sunshine.
He has responded to posters nicely with ” It is not necessary to word clear” or ” Please don’t quote LRH” Now we are talking years…
And people still do. He says one thing and others will fight with him. Good God he is NOT a Saint. He is attempting to bring others to a higher level away from Scientology. Where they can have critical thinking skills and not be under the Mind F*ck.
You can not deny that this hasn’t happened. He has gone extremely easy on ” them.” It is up to them to process information as he gives it.
As we all know for others to decompress there is NO time table…
Weeks, Months , Years or sadly Never.
I have seen him tediously explain something to someone and that person comes back fighting.. ” You are stupid, that’s NOT what LRH said ..
What POLICY is that?” Over and Over and Over and over…and over. DOX!
I am a big supporter of Marty’s. I have observed him coming out of the fog to the mountain top.
I have changed. I used to scream at the highest mountain top that the Tech doesn’t work. Well, if someone says the tech works/ worked for them..
I at least recognize that it was probably something Hubbard stole.
I personally think that Marty has displayed the patience of a Saint.
He has helped so many. He is evolving. Thank God.
I have also seen others on his site, Geir’s blog and Milestone2 who change their responses depending on the blog.
Sure!
________________________________
‘…fall in this category’ (whatever category, btw)
It reminds me of a process when i was asked to go out into
the street and answer to ‘ are you willing to not know something
about that person?’ (of persons one by one who were walking by)
Well, the outcome was hilarious! E. Tolle says similar….
Vin, what category do you put me into? Please, name it.
Human?
‘As YOU like it’…YOU make ‘me’. If you prefer your question
‘hanging’ in the timeless space, it’s fine with me. Or answer it
mindfully.
Fundamentally, I believe, that we are a large lake of awareness. Whirlpools form in this lake and lead to individual selves. The following is my model, which is too big to put on this post in toto.
A Model of the Mind
.
‘The ultimate foundation of the mind is self’. (Vinaire)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_marks_of_existence
We have Self at one end of the spectrum and no-self at the other end. In between lie the gradients that make up the mind. The mind gets more dense as one moves toward self. Self is the most dense part of the mind.
Nirvana lies at the no-self end of the spectrum. That is ground state.
________________________________
And if George is open about being a scientologist, he’s a laughing stock too, I bet.
LOL!!!
Alanzo
“George is changing Scientology from the inside.”
1. Double entendre, nice.
2. Me too.
Good luck George!
He will need it
Poor George! Feel for him.
How on earth can he ever ‘let go’, enough to begin to actually ‘look’ at what he’s stuck to, if he doesn’t recognize he’s effectively been put under a hypnotic spell?
Not impossible to undo this, fortunately 🙂
>>”George, On the count of three, you WILL wake up, feeling refreshed, and have regained your ability let things go, whenever YOU choose. One, two, three….wake UP George!”
>>”How are you doing, George?”………..
( Just another effective way to unstick “stuckness”.) 🙂
“George, George, George of the Theta, strong has he can be. George, George George of the Theta watch out for that ….
“. . . me!”
For those that don’t know this American Pop Culture Reference.
Gee thanks KG. I didn’t know! 😀
I just posted the following on Marty’s blog. Hope he approves it.
“I think that it is very important that people follow Buddha’s Kalama Sutta with respect to Marty’s Blog as much as with respect to Scientology and Hubbard.”
Kalama Sutta
.
I have just posted the following for Pete the anti-Scientologist on Marty’s blog. It is under moderation.
When a person is moving through his life as if hypnotized, the entrance point to resolving his case is attention. Maybe his attention was free when he was a child, but now he adheres to irrational beliefs and strange rituals to get by in life. This is because he has a lot of unresolved inconsistencies stacked on top of each other.
He does not recognize the inconsistency that is so obvious to you because he has probably explained it to himself as “life”. Such earlier inconsistencies are somehow taken for granted by him because his attention is now on inconsistencies stacked on top of them.
The inconsistency available to be resolved in any case is the one where the person’s attention now rests.
.
An inconsistency becomes obvious to you only after you have resolved it for yourself. There may be other inconsistencies in you that you are not yet aware of. As you see in others those inconsistencies that you have resolved for yourself, you want others to resolve them too. But you do not know how inconsistencies are stacked up in the other person. He may need to resolve some other inconsistency first.
But if you feel compelled that the other person should be resolving some inconsistency that is so very obvious to you, then there is something wrong with your effort. You are trying to bypass the order in which inconsistencies are stacked up in his case. This compulsion points to some inconsistency in you that you are not aware of.
Compulsion to “help” another get rid of some aberration, is an inconsistency within oneself that one is usually not aware.
.
This is why Mindfulness Discussion approach is unique.
We are looking at the Guru Complex here.