A definition, perhaps fundamental, of Free Will could be “cause without prior cause” – or the equivalent, “cause without reason”.
A definition, perhaps fundamental, of Free Will could be “cause without prior cause” – or the equivalent, “cause without reason”.
499 thoughts on “A note on Free Will”
“A definition, perhaps fundamental, of Free Will could be “cause without prior cause” – or the equivalent, “cause without reason”. ”
Your article on “Free Will” is an EXCELLENT piece , dear Geir ; and your follow up on it , is even better. You definitively have “Free Will” on Science, and an excellent grasp of the subject.
Now, “Cause w/out prior Cause” ; interesting. But if “Free Will” does, indeed, exist ,it would mean that most choices are based on prior choices, which would make that definition non applicable unless we are talking of the FIRST decision ever made , if we define “Cause” as “any impulse that makes something happen”.
“Cause w/out reason” , doesn’t exist as the concept of “Free Will” denote CHOICES , and if there are choices , then there is always a “Reason” for things.
I would define “Free Will” as “the power to choose”.
My ¢2 cents . :-)))
Or “The power to make a self-determined decision”.
A choice could well be based on prior experience or thoughts or emotions. A choice could also obviously be enforced or limited in a multitude of ways. But below all this – for free will to be a possibility, it must be potentially FREE – free of past, present and future factors, thus it must have the power of being “cause without prior cause”. And this would equate to “cause without reason”. Which in turn defies logic and transcends logic. It goes beyond sanity.
“It goes beyond sanity” Or is this the very essence of sanity. A conscious decision of our own – for whatever reason – is an expression of our very “self” which would in my opinion be an expression of personal sanity. Any other expression; as in influenced by other ideas and therefore not personal (or not “native” if that makes the correct significance to you, the reader), is not always personal sanity. Many times I thinks this comes across as personal tolerance, personal acquiescence or more simply a personal compromise, to a “others” (as in a group agreement) agreement.
Cause without reason requires no external, or other, agreement. It is a cause based upon the “I” or me, or my essence (or whatever you want to call my personal awareness that is unique from your awareness). Expressing “me” is FREE WILL. Right, wrong, or otherwise is not part of this equation. Free will is ME doing my own expression that you may perceive as wtf, sane, irrational or beautiful. I don’t care your emotion. I only care that I expressed my emotion, feeling or thought.
My right, ability or willingness to just be as I am thinking is free will as I see it. Anything else is other determined, or influenced by the viewpoint other than “self” and this is not good or bad.
I am not stating this to create agreement, disagreement, or other than what I stated. Free is, and will always be, my opinion and my action upon my option. Just my two cents on this. 🙂
Still Awakening: “A conscious decision of our own – for whatever reason – is an expression of our very “self” which would in my opinion be an expression of personal sanity.”
The above inspired a thought: Perhaps a conscious decision – any decision – is not only an expression of self and of sanity, but may also be an expression of free will.
The fact that an individual is capable of making a decision/choice – even if the choice is entirely pre-determined – means there is such a thing as will. And if will exists and can be exerted, then in a very real sense it is free – free will.
In other words, free will would be the freedom and ability to exert one’s will, even if there is only one pre-determined choice.
To paraphrase Descartes – I choose, therefore I have free will. 🙂
marildi – I would say ignore Descartes (or Hubbard or any other named reference.) If you are aware of making a conscious decision then you have a personal experience of free will. Otherwise you would have an experience of viewing or observing a decision. “Conscious decision” and the awareness of would only be available to free will. Just my opinion. Choose or not, the personal experience is a personal “proof” of the exercise and ability of free will. But then you have the free will to ignore your personal “proof” or “personal experience” and just think it is from mere agreement to another’s thought or will. That is the simplicity of free will – your choice to agree to the experience or not and think it was due to some other causation. Just another cog in the wheel is simply another of your “free choice” agreements or decisions.
Yes! I believe you’ve said exactly what I was trying to say. Just the fact making a decision and being aware of doing so, indicates the existence of free will. You added to that the idea that one can even believe his choice was not free – and it would still be free only because he made that choice/decision. Are we in sinc?
Oh, and paraphrasing Descartes was just for fun. 🙂
“You added to that the idea that one can even believe his choice was not free – and it would still be free only because he made that choice/decision. Are we in sinc?
No, I never implied any agreement to a choice not free. I merely commented agreeing to another’s opinion is your choice. No enforcement of agreement, or non freedeom of this choice was implied. If you believe your choice was not free then it is not free – period.
You may actively or passively agree. But being passive in “disagreement” is not freedom of choice or free will. I would say passive in “disagreement” or “non agreement” would be covered by the definition of stupidity or ignorance. Free will – in my opinion – is only available for application by those who are willing to apply it. Otherwise this “free will” would be more agreement to be passive agreement. This is the realm of a non causative position and merely an acceptance of full, or partial, effect or control by some other entity/person (an individual, sovereign, government, corporation, etc – but always an “other” and never self determined.)
Normal term for this is a wimp or sheeple and not a free thinking individual. I prefer individuals, even if we disagree, to “sheeple’s” that merely agree without any thought involved. That is the road to subversion, submission and enforced ignorance.
Simply – free will is directly and only involved with free choice and ability to view what is there, to look at, and not what one merely thinks is there based on fixed idea or pre-determined concept.
Present time conscious is only truly available to free will and free choice in addition to personal abiltiy to confront what is there. We only live and enjoy life in the present. The past – merely a memory/thought and the future is merely a dream/postulate. The present is where we demonstrate and excercise free will as an extension of freedom of thought and choice.
“I’m not crazy about reality, but it’s still the only place to get a decent meal.”
Me: “You added to that the idea that one can even believe his choice was not free – and it would still be free only because he made that choice/decision. Are we in sinc?
You: “No, I never implied any agreement to a choice not free”.
In that quote above, I was talking about a person THINKING the choice/decision he made wasn’t free. In your previous post, you wrote;
“But then you have the free will to ignore your personal ‘proof’ or ‘personal experience’ and just THINK [my caps for emphasis] it is from mere agreement to another’s thought or will. THAT IS THE SIMPLICITY OF FREE WILL – YOUR CHOICE TO AGREE TO THE EXPERIENCE OR NOT AND THINK IT WAS DUE TO SOME OTHER CAUSATION.”
The above was what I meant when I said that it wouldn’t matter if the person’s decision was “entirely pre-determined,” i.e. entirely influenced by other sources. But if I still haven’t duplicated, I’d better go get a good night’s sleep!
Cute Groucho Marx quote. He was probably a philosopher in his own right. Most comedians are.
marildi – you basically got it correct. I just didn’t mean to imply if you thought it was free that it was free will. I mean you could agree and that was your free will. I never mentioned pre-determined at all. In my view there is free will, agreement of this free will and then just plain ignoring the obvious. I do not really consider that I am playing another’s game and thus a pre-determined outcome. If I felt that then I would know it was game over – or, NO game. Being a pawn for some “pre-determined” outcome is not an option for me.
I think you will agree to the following quote I borrowed: “The avalanche has already started; it is too late for the pebbles to vote.” That to me is the essence of pre-determined and I see NO option of free will or free choice if that were true. I decide on the free will option/outcome and will play from that viewpoint. I do agree, however, probably it is time for some of us to sleep. Tis cold upon the great land mass and time for warm sleep.
Still Awakening: “I think you will agree to the following quote I borrowed: ‘The avalanche has already started; it is too late for the pebbles to vote.’ That to me is the essence of pre-determined and I see NO option of free will or free choice if that were true.”
That’s a great quote. It really paints the picture – in far less than a thousand words. 🙂
The idea that occurred to me, in relation to pre-determinism or determinism, was inspired by your original premise, which you summarized here:
“If you are aware of making a conscious decision then you have a personal experience of free will… ‘Conscious decision,’ and the awareness of, would only be available to free will…Choose or not, the personal experience is a personal ‘proof’ of the exercise and ability of free will.”
The above idea is what started me thinking that even IF any and every decision we make has already been determined by prior events, the fact that we consciously and knowingly (that is, with awareness) make the decision would mean we have free will – simply because the act of truly choosing is intentional, knowing, and conscious – and thus is an exercise of will. This intentional aspect infers that will itself is free – “free will” may be redundant.
On the other hand, where a choice is made unWILLingly – that is, without intention and conscious awareness of making a choice – then it would not be an exercise of will. It would be the type of “decision” a computer makes – unknowing and without intention, i.e. without the component of will.
In a nutshell, what I’m saying is that the ability and action of making a decision, a true decision, infers the existence of will – and the very concept of will infers being free to exert it.
Thus, even if the extent of FREE will is entirely limited by deterministic factors, and even if our decisions are always based on (determined by) “what came before,” having even this much free will means that we are responsible for gaining the knowledge to make the best choices – since further knowledge then becomes a part of our decision base.
Whew – more long-winded than I intended. 😀
Thanks for all your other philosophical thoughts too!
“To paraphrase Descartes – I choose, therefore I have free will. :)”
He he, yeah. That is how we learned to bend the definitions of words to our “free will” from Hubbard.
Now…. question: what make you to be so sure that those ”opinions” you have is really yours? Just because thoughts are spinning inside the head? My 2 cent.
Geir : “A choice could well be based on prior experience or thoughts or emotions.”
Peter : Most of the time, it is that way.
Geir : “A choice could also obviously be enforced or limited in a multitude of ways.”
Peter : True as well ; and also influenced by others.
Geir : “But below all this – for free will to be a possibility, it must be potentially FREE – free of past, present and future factors, thus it must have the power of being “cause without prior cause”. ”
Peter : I think you are missing the point , dear Geir ; Free Will have nothing do do with “good” or “bad” , or with “happy” or “unhappy”, or with “No other factors involved”. Free Will only implies that you can choose ; that you can make a self-determined decision about anything. There isn’t such a thing as a “uninfluenced decision” (the “Free” factor you mentioned) if that is what you are referring to, which seems you are. Once you decided “To Be” after becoming aware of being aware , you interacted with other life units (as opposed to the “Pool of Life” ) , created a time track of experiences which would thereafter influence your choices in one way or another. A being is his own accumulation of experiences ; that’s why we are unique as individuals.
If a person has the power of choice over anything (which to me is what Free Will really is) , his choices would determine his state of beingness and future. Those choices will always be influenced by some past experience or factor, or by the decisions (one’s considerations and postulates about things) already arrived at as the result of those experiences. But even when one is influenced by past experiences, and decide based on them – either by fear of consequences , based on our conclusions about such experiences, or based on a personal code of conduct – one is doing it by choice, by one’s OWN agreement. Any suggestion is always an autosuggestion at the end because it is always us that agreed to it. And thus, we can change anything at will about us and our beliefs and considerations. And thus psychotherapy can occur. And thus there can be recovery of self and a happy existence.
Geir : “And this would equate to “cause without reason”. Which in turn defies logic and transcends logic. It goes beyond sanity.”
Peter : Don’t buy into the insanity of the Quantum interpretations of life, dear Geir. I’ve been there. Don’t fall into their non-deterministic view of things. Quantum Mechanics destroyed what good remained of physics .
“Quantum Mechanics destroyed what good remained of physics .”
That is an irresponsible statement about the most successful human pattern touched upon to date. It seems more accurate to say that hippies pretending to understand what is outside the human frame of reference and promoting their New Age theism do attempt to ruin extant physics. Fortunately for us all, there are still real scientists who have the discipline to, “Shut up and calculate.”
“That is an irresponsible statement about the most successful human pattern touched upon to date.”
Peter : “Most successful” ? Many respected scientists, and I mean many (I didn’t say “most” ) would totally disagree with that. I’ll post the links later on so that you can see it for yourself before making emotional assumptions about me, dear Chris.
“It seems more accurate to say that hippies pretending to understand what is outside the human frame of reference and promoting their New Age theism do attempt to ruin extant physics.”
Peter : Spoken like like a “truly” free willed scientist, ah Chris ? And I was told a while ago by a findamentalist scientist , that cultism doesn’t exist in the field of science. How wrong was
Look how you reacted , like typical “scientists” do when challenged in their bubble world. They can’t stand any criticism of their theories, just as LRH could’t stand it as well. I am free of ALL CULTS, dear Chris, including VERY much the cult of science “authorities”. I am a REAL science student.
“Fortunately for us all, the re are still real scientists who have the discipline to, “Shut up and calculate.”
Peter : Yeah, keep repeating the cultism that the Solvay Conferences (the 1927 one, specially) imposed on the world of physics, and their idolatry of “authorities” all you want. I know how to calcula just fine. I just do it with REAL variables and not any mumbo-jumpo abstract “wave equations” with no actual physical representation .
I’ll post some more links later on for you to check them out, dear Chris. These people are not “New Age Theists” ; they are REAL scientists.
LOL Peter. You are being funny, pulling my leg, right? 🙂
I have now gone through that site. Here are my conclusions: The CSS site seems to be motivated by an objection to the apparent Quantum Randomness. They object to a lack of deterministic Cause & Effect and have erected a theory to satisfy their objection. They claim the theory explains reality with fewer assumptions than QM/Einstein. But, they fail to point to any predictions outside of what is already known. The success of a theory is not merely how well it explains what we already see, but rather to make predictions into the unknown that can later be discovered. This is where a scientist becomes courageous – to propose a theory that is falsifiable. Failing to predict, and thus make a theory falsifiable, a theory is merely an after-construction or explanation. The success of QM and related theories is not just how well it explains what we see, but how remarkably well it has predicted new, unchartered territories.
In addition, the CSS approach seems rooted in the Judeo-Christian religions and appeals to people of these beliefs on several occasions throughout their site.
All in all, I say the CSS site reeks of bad science. And throwing in a Nobel Prize Laureate or two doesn’t really help.
Geir : “I have now gone through that site. Here are my conclusions: The CSS site seems to be motivated by an objection to the apparent Quantum Randomness. They object to a lack of deterministic Cause & Effect and have erected a theory to satisfy their objection. They claim the theory explains reality with fewer assumptions than QM/Einstein. But, they fail to point to any predictions outside of what is already known.”
Peter : Yes , your assertions are correct on that, and I wasn’t necessarily supporting their theory when I posted the link , but merely pointing out to the many inconsistencies and contradictions of QM , and the fact that quite a few physics share my viewpoint as regards to that. And it is not just the randomness and non-determinism of it all, Geir, but QM is full of mathematical abstractions manipulated to “fit” the “observations”. See “The Farce of Physics” for details of lots of faulty “experiments” in psysics, and how many “scientists” sought to adapt mathematical nonsense to explain their “theories”.
Geir : “The success of a theory is not merely how well it explains what we already see, but rather to make predictions into the unknown that can later be discovered.”
Peter : No disagreements on that ; those two are my guidelines as well , but anybody can come up with a “theory” to explain observable phenomena and fit the “mathematics” to it, instead of using (as it created to do) the mathematics to explain experimental data , to find patterns in the phenomena. That is mathematics are really for ; to find the patterns in the experimental data so that the equations themselves serve not only to explain ( and summarize ; put into a pattern) what is being observed, but also to predict further manifestations and phenomena. With QM we REVERSED that , and created mathematical abstractions that doesn’t really symbolize actual objects or physical phenomena but only PROBABILITIES of something occurring.
The so called “Wave Equation” of QM doesn’t describe any physical feature itself (frequency, work, energy, etc) , but only probabilities of something happening . You see ? The math no longer represents the observable psysical phenomena as it was created for in the first place. The concept of the “Collapsing Wave” as a function of measurement and observation couldn’t get any crazier.
Geir : “This is where a scientist becomes courageous – to propose a theory that is falsifiable. Failing to predict, and thus make a teory falsifiable, a theory is merely an after-construction or explanation. ”
Peter : No disagreements on that neither. As I said before, I wasn’t necessarily supporting CSS , but using the data on the website to show the inconsistencies of QM.
Geir : The success of QM and relted theories is not just how well it explains what we see, but how well it has predicted new, unchartered teretories.
Peter : Now, dear Geir, any theory can be “fitted” to “explain” observable phenomena. We have had plenty of those in the history of science. The key to this is the predictability of it all , and how can that theory with is mathematical representations be used to DO things in te real world. Would you care to illustrate me how QM has predicted anything , or have been used for anything ? The many books on QM and websites keep repeating that , but fail to give ANY example.
With this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics#Applications
Topped with e.g. this: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Quantum+Mechanics+prediction+success
Thanks for the links, Geir ; I will unbiasedly study them during the day, and will get back to you when I am done with it.
Here are the links I promise that justify my “irresponsible statement”. The first link requires advance math (Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, and some Probability theory) , but is an excellent paper. The other links are more easily understood w/out too much math. They are only intended for others to check them out , and arrive at their own conclusions about QD.
I do no wish to engage in any debates unless the specific math and alleged experiments that “proved” QD are known by the debaters and are discussed. Otherwise it is a waste of time. But my primary intention is to show that my comment about QD didn’t just come out of nowhere. Many scientists (well known PhDs) share in my viewpoints of QD. But this isn’t a science blog. So, the links are there for anyone interested if to find out.
Okay, I underestimated your ideas. You’re not pulling my leg. I will get with the utility company tomorrow to let them know Einstein’s photoelectric effect was wrong. There will be some upset, but when I show these links it should sort out nicely.
” Okay, I underestimated your ideas. You’re not pulling my leg. I will get with the utility company tomorrow to let them know Einstein’s photoelectric effect was wrong. There will be some ups et, but when I show these links it should sort out nicely.”
Now Chris, what on hell does the photoelectric effect has to do with electricity distribution ? NOTHING at all. Now it is YOU who are pulling my leg, right ? :-)))
In fact, it was Einstein’s faulty interpretation of such phenomena that lead to the photon theory of light, which lead to the faulty interpretation of the Doubble Slit exp, which lead to the “Collapsing Wave” mumbo-jumbo , which lead to the non-deterministic view of QM , which lead to String Theory and all kind of mombo-jumbos which has no real world applications but only serve as entertaining abstractions.
But, judging by your lack of interest to even examine those links, one of which is even from a Nobel Price winner, I won’t even bother to explain my views which many well known PhDs share.
There is no much of a difference really between the cult of religion and the cult of science “authorities”. People follow them blindly w/out never even looking at the actual experiments and how the equations came about. Thus they miss the inconsistencies and contradictions. A very sad state of affairs that slowed down or totally obstructed many great theories that threatened the status quo and the deifying of science idols. Ever read “The Farce of Physics” , dear Chris ? Take a look at it , and open your eyes. There is more that meet the eyes as regards to the development of 20th century physics.
Keep following your idols ; I’ll follow my power of choice over evaluated data. Take care. Nice exchanging with you. I am going to sleep now.
“Now Chris, what on hell does the photoelectric effect has to do with electricity distribution ? NOTHING at all. Now it is YOU who are pulling my leg, right ? :-)))”
Yes, but your jumping from one assumption to another about me is interesting. Why do you think I wasn’t interested in your response nor looked at the links? I did before replying to you last night. Worrying about spooky effects is not in itself the body of QM, rather the frontier. The maths that are used are successful resulting in wonderful technology that we all enjoy even as we write back and forth to one another on the internet. I’m finding your posts slippery with you seemingly putting me on one side of the discussion and then reversing me to the other side. Maybe where you are the sun doesn’t shine (joke) and photovoltaic panels do not exist (joke), but here in Arizona, PV panels are an integral part of electrical distribution — That is what the photoelectric effect has to do with electrical distribution. My problem with hippie New Agers is only to the degree that their fantastic hypotheses may be unwieldy to apply. I’m no fan of the double slit experiment but I thought you were but then it seems you aren’t. I’m no believer in paradox but simply think paradox points to flaws in understanding models, which is overall helpful.
Picking on Einstein is fine, but rather than posting more links, just write why you think Einstein is wrong. Just post which theory or part with which you disagree and put your red pen to it. Simple. Don’t worry about the maths, just do them. I will try to keep up. 🙂
Chris : “Yes, but your jumping from one assumption to another about me is interesting. Why do you think I wasn’t interested in your response nor looked at the links? I did before replying to you last night.”
Peter : My apologies for that then ; a bad habit I must learn to let go of.
Chris : “Worrying about spooky effects is not in itself the body of QM, rather the frontier. The maths that are used are successful resulting in wonderful technology that we all enjoy even as we write back and forth to one a nother on the internet.”
Peter : If you care to illustrate me , as Geir did, with SPECIFIC examples of how QM has predicted phenomena that had not been observed yet , and how exactly it is being used , and was used , to bring “wonderful” technologies ; we can them discuss this to a more professional level , and will be playing with the same rules of the game. So please, either write those examples for me to analyze, or post the applicable links to academic papers, books, websites, etc ; I promise to study them in detail, and then get back to you on that. Fair enough ?
Chris : ” I’m finding your posts slippery with you seemingly putting me on one side of the discussion and then reversing me to the other side.”
Peter : I hadn’t noticed that. :-)))
Chris : “Maybe where you are the sun doesn’t shine (joke) and photovoltaic panels do not exist (jo ke), but here in Arizona, PV panels are an integral part of electrical distribution —That is what the photoelectric effect has to do with electrical distribution.”
Peter : Thanks for the clarification ; the photoelectric effect surely has to do with CREATING electricity by conversion (not distributing it as such) , but that in no way can’t be necessarily interpreted that a photon instead of a wave is the one hitting that photovoltaic material , knocking off the “electrons” from it. The Photoelectric Effect per se doesn’t necessarily leads to QM unless the photon theory , instead of a wave one is the one chosen as the foundation. I theorize that Einstein was wrong in his analysis of the Photoelectric Effect. But on that, I’ll prepare a very detailed post later on during the week.
Chris : “My problem with hippie New Agers is only to the degree that their fantastic hypotheses may be unwieldy to apply.”
Peter : Yeah, I know what you mean , and even agree with it ; but not all proponents of new models are “hippie New Agers”.
Gier : ” I’m no fan of the double slit experiment but I thought you were but then it seems you aren’t.”
Peter : No, I love the experiment just fine ; I just doesn’t agree with the QM’s interpretation of it, that’s all.
Chris : “I’m no believer in paradox but simply think paradox points to flaws in understanding models, which is overall helpful.”
Peter : Or they can point out to inconsistencies and contradictions that should prompt REVIEWING the model itself for correctness , instead of attempting to justify it all by creating more mathematical abstractions such as the “Collapsing Wave” as a function of measurement , and representing probabilities instead of actual physical variables.
Chris : “Picking on Einstein is fine, but rather than posting more links, just write why you think Einstein is wrong. Just post which theory or part with which you disagree and put your red pen to it. Simple. Don’t worry about the maths, just do them. I will t ry to keep up. 🙂 ”
Peter : Fair enough ; I’ll do just that during the following days. Just don’t forget sending me the links on how exactly is QM being used to create new tech, and on how exactly it has predicted not yet observed phenomena .
Geir….”must be potentially FREE – free of past, present and future factors””
Since you have asked this question, you are the one who knows that is impassible.
I haven’t found one item, one incident in 42 years in sessions which did not originate some place on the track.
Example; Last year I found the reason why I have chosen my e-mail address…. it was a emotional incident way back in China. Free Will?
I am afraid I am losing you, dear Elizaberh ; what’s your point ?
Hi and take care. :-)))
Peter… that happens all the time…. must be my English, no worry.
Or the reason you have lost me BECAUSE YOU HAVENT GOTTEN ME IN THE FIRST PLACE, because we cant duplicate other persons reality? This is not on insult, not for one second!. 🙂
“Peter… that happens all the time…. must be my English, no worry.”
Peter : That’s quite all right ; mine is a nightmare indeed!!!
“Or the reason you have lost me BECAUSE YOU HAVENT GOTTE N ME IN THE FIRST PLACE, because we cant duplicate other persons reality? This is not on insult, not for one second!. 🙂 ”
Peter : No offense taken at all ; I knew your main line of reasoning. My comment was intended fot you to elaborate on it with clear assertions of your views instead of examples so that the point could be properly discussed. I got it the first time , but no direct assertions were made. But you STILL hasn’t made clear assertions , discussion apart. :-)))
Peter lets start over…. please ask a question… that would help me greatly.
Good! , that’s better.
1. Do you think Free Will exist , and why it does or doesn’t ?
2. What would be your definition of “Free Will” ?
Not in my reality and to have that reality I have arrived through experience.
I been solo auditing since 76 and not one day have gone by without out sessions. This I write to let you know, to give a bit a reality of the vast experience I have in recalling past track incidents.
Peter, I haven’t found one item-subject-consideration-agreement-belief which I have taken into session that item would have its origin here. Than means =NO FREE WILL!
I have written posts , 4-5 of them they are in my blog and every one of these post written concerning ”free will”: that I wanted to achieve made to come through something and no matter how much stuff -intentions-counter intentions I have confronted -as-ised in sessions I still could not make it happen what I wanted. I had over 500 hours in sessions to eliminate all the obstacles=beliefs and had immense amount of cognition and each of these cogs made me realise ‘separately” that by having those beliefs [which I had the sessions on ] could not possibly make my ”wish” become reality.
Earlier track experiences: activities which were made for or against what we wanted to achieve, were much more stronger: had holding power and now what we here on this planet thinking-believing-wanting will not change-alter the original which holds the whole chain in place and intact.
My definition of ”free will”? I will know that when I will as-is all my beliefs-considerations-agreements what I have about the universe I created for self… but I am guessing by than I wont have the need to know.
Thank you , Elizabeth ; I understood all your points. Thanks for sharing your views.
🙂 hehehe Peter what you have understood is what you have read into my answer and that is your reality alone. I will never know that and you will never duplicate my meaning. This is the Black Cat thing…. I dont know how you see that can and the same goes for you. This is the fun …. we assume we understand. Geir had a post on ASSUMPTION few years back too. We had great time than too sorting out our own beliefs because that is what we do when blogging. 🙂 My nickel on the subject : hehehe…. we have that!
Got it , Elizabeth ; thanks!
One cannot through experience disprove anything. The reference is “black swan’.
I dont know the meaning of what ” Black Swan ” Is.. Explain please?
thank you. I read it.. but do give on example so I can understand how what I post is that.
Your experiences cannot disprove free will. No mate how much non-“free will” you experience or see, you can never prove that free will is not possible.
Right on that 100%, stand corrected.
I guess I need to do some re-consideration .. I will re-read your definition on ”free will”.
I have,. and from where I stand ”free will” dont exist. I cant see it because what I have learned about the universe so far.
But I like your definition.. that definition is the right one what ”free will” could be if existed.
No, I cant prove it but neither you can that it exist.
I never claimed I did.
hehehe there you go!… I cant either.. and I would not even attempt to try it.
I am looking at the idea you have thrown my way… To prove the existence of any belief… I love my cat… yes, I do.. but by having that body is not the prof of love, nor the prof because I feed it..,look after it etc.. That is not prof of love.. but that is a consideration by collected agreement that would be love. My feeling could not be proved. Just thinking aloud here.
Truth what is, is on individual belief.
right you are.. but human reasoning can not be said ”sane” so Free Will cant be described =explained by terms known by humans.
thetaclear..your 2 cent is not good here, Canadian government taken the ”cent” out of circulation 🙂
Now… how the person really would know if there is no prior cause.. ??
Lets not look at things like having a choice between tea of coffee –bath or shower, even than the choice would be ”what feels better” which means: which of the two would provide more pleasurable stimulation and the same goes for choosing between the two different brew.
I’ll play devil’s advocate. How about this idea:
Life is like a card game. You make choices based on the cards you’re dealt and the cards played by other players, as well as by the makeup of your own mind – which, in turn, is determined by all past experience and inheritance.
This would be determinism – with no free will. But it would fit in with the philosophy that we are all One, a single Being – or simply Consciousness – and this Being, or Consciousness, is not directing but merely experiencing life in an infinitude of ways as life unfolds. The unfolding was either set in motion at the beginning of the universe by a Creator – or else both the universe and Consciousness have always existed.
This scenario would make existence a matter of just enjoying the ride. And maybe that wouldn’t be too bad. 🙂
Hi Marildi. Interesting contributions to Geir’s OP, don’cha think? 🙂
In just two lines, he set in motion, quite a number of “effects”. hey?
You might say Axiom 28 applied! 😀
Then again, that’s what our liddle ol’ emanation (cause, source, consciousness) point — SIMPLY DOES! (consciously OR unconsciously) ie. knowingly or UNknowingly, pulls the trigger, that fires the gun’s bullet (communication) that delivers the message (effect). The effect/s may/may not be willed (intended), but the outcome is the same!
I think your view in your above reply is spot on.
Perhaps though, “free will” is actually analogous to the decisive action of making a “postulate.” Among the three primary capabilities of a being (thetan), of considerations, POSTULATES and opinions, “postulate” being the most POTENT, in that it has the the inherent power to create, conserve, alter or destroy states in the mental and/or physical universe of self/others, limited only by the laws of the ARC (GOD,spiritual, theta) universe and those of the physical universe (MEST)
As a closing, I would ask — beyond merely BEING, is experience even possible, without the occurrence of communication (Axiom 28) ??
— Your “viewpoint” interchange amongst dimension points and thus other viewpoints — making up the game/s in any given universe/s.
So yep, “enjoying the ride”, sounds like a pretty sane, worthwhile purpose to me,
(Oh yeah and you get (to use) a ration of free will, along the way, too! :3 )
Thanks, Cal. I’m glad you liked my little ditty. 🙂 Looking at it now, instead of saying existence is “a ride,” I should have said it’s “a roller-coaster ride”!
Seriously, that would be in line with the views of many great sages, including the Buddha’s idea of karma. And then there’s “What goes up must come down” – classical physics. 😀
You wrote: “..beyond merely BEING, is experience even possible without the occurrence of communication (Axiom 28)??”
That’s an interesting question. I’ve actually thought about it in relation to what I wrote above regarding “the philosophy that we are all One, a single Being – or simply Consciousness – and this Being, or Consciousness, is not directing but merely experiencing life in an infinitude of ways as life unfolds.”
In brief, the answer to your question might be that without communication Consciousness, or any Single Being or Beingness, is simply a potential. And it seems to me that communication involves a physical universe, even one of far less density than ours. What do you think?
Again, me ❤ , the fact of an interchange of ideas and/or particles across space, is a universal phenomenon. Whether as fundamental as a nucleic transference of particles, with the intent of replication, to the sensory stimuli being picked up by two whales, half an ocean apart. Or even the validated receipt of actual telepathy between beings occurring across the planet. This fact, all on it's own, defies the naysayer scientists, who apparently cannot begin to explain such phenomena, even with multifaceted logic.
The Ol' man's forays into this realm, are legion, as we know. But others have cataloged their own experiences quite convincingly too.
The oft used colloquialism of "picking up things," is seldom appreciated for the truth it conveys, but what a surprise to learn that most animals source their 'messages' in no other way!! 😀
Yes, me <3, I did a little posting further down the page, centering around an appeal for the plight of our fellow Earthlings. Unsurprisingly, not a SINGLE reply
came of it.
No wonder we are "pulling it all in", as far as the health of planetary habitat is concerned. Now for your turn. 🙂 — What do YOU think?
Excellent post, Cal. ❤
I'm not sure you were here yet and remember when Elizabeth Hamre was posting comments, but her current blog post speaks to both points of yours about communication and animals.
As for communication, in the excerpt below, she mentions "missing the ability to communicate – and that means missing life itself." She also relays some valuable data about her past lives as animals. Basically, her blog post supports – from personal recall – your comments on both of these subjects. On top of it, her solo auditing cognitions support your man Adnashanti and other non-duality teachers with regard to thoughts and thinking.
Below is the blog post excerpt (note – I've done some very light editing of typos, spelling and a bit of punctuation as I am used to Elizabeth's writing and her "English as a second language"; note too that she uses the word "Entity" to refer to all spiritual beings):
"By now I don’t have continual flowing thought. They were slowly eliminated over the years and now when I have a thought, a consideration, an idea, these I take into sessions because I know from experience that they are leftover material from the bank: therefore worthless.
"Now, this morning I was looking for 'thoughts' – to have thoughts. I don’t want them but the idea that I miss them is an ITEM because missing something – not having something – is part of the implanted beliefs.
"Then I had this idea to look for 'missing thoughts – not having thought' in other-than-human form…hehehe.. Instantly I was inside a gorilla’s form and experiencing this valence. I knew, sensed that I missed something but I did not know what because I as a gorilla did not have thought. I as an Entity had enough awareness even inside this valence that I knew something was not there, but not aware enough to know what it was. (In my reality on the Tone Scale the animal kingdom is much higher, in fact is above the Tone Scale.)
"Then I went earlier-similar and found self – became ‘'aware’' of being a chimpanzee, then a big snake, and a very large bird, huge body and wingspan; and in each incident I was aware of missing something but just had that nagging sensation and nothing more.
"Being jammed 'inside' these bodies I did not have thought so now I know that: birds, mammals, animals don’t 'think'.
"Then a realization hit me: while being in a human form the most valuable…most precious item we have is what we know, our education – the more learned-educated-intellectual-scholarly one becomes, [the more] he/she is deemed-judged-referred/talked about as above others, admired, looked up to as exemplary – a model to be followed. Evaluation by considerations [of] what is good or bad.
"Education is used as a tool, an instrument to influence-impact-sway – to affect others – and that could mean POWER—big time!
"Just think-recall any great orator in our history: whatever they were saying was recorded, remembered: Power of the words—power in the words.
"MY POINT HERE IS: when an ENTITY dropping the body – gets separated from the body – at that moment all the realities–beliefs do expire-vanish for that Entity; that assumed valence no longer exists – gone, vanished – and the Entity returns to the original state: becomes true-self again – INFINITE.
"But what now is missing for this Entity is the power… missing the ability to communicate and that means missing life itself. THAT REALITY WAS SO STRONGLY – HEAVILY – IMPRESSED THAT THE ENTITY BELIEVED IT WAS REAL!
"What I accomplish with sessions: I rehabilitate my abilities as an Entity – not in the body state – in order to have a life when not in the body, and that means not being controlled-affected.
"So far I have done very well since I have as-ised all considerations which contain the realities of human valance and I have regained abilities to which I was not aware of having, and gained insight to what life is like when not experiencing the body plus what comes with it: a set of already established considerations."
Thank you for travelin’ into Elizabeth’s Shoeniverse, me ❤ 🙂
So now I get what you think! 😀 Also what Elizabeth does too!
Currently, I'm taking the view of Adya, as the one which strips away all the baggage which we have deemed we cannot do without. Which returns one to the Oneness, you mention often. No EGO to cling to. Just nothing. Just pure awareness. Devoid of needing experience.(traps? — maybe!?)
In the 'game', (of life) of course, we may seek to be constantly in communication/s with others, and go ahead and and "reach" and have fun.:D enjoying the experience, OR mebbe get heavily clobbered, 😦 and decide to "withdraw", to lick our wounds and mebbe do a little review on WOT happened??? 😀
— So then we get to learn the folly of our questionable actions/choices, to 'reach' another day! 😀
However one may be inclined to view the experience of 'incarnation', there appears to be little doubt that this involves exercise in 'reach & withdraw', ( confirming the Ol' man's observation of "the actions of a thetan." )
For me personally, Marildi,. the attainment of "pure awareness" via sessions of TR-O, gave me the 'release handle' I was searching for, to jettison all the considerations (traps and beliefs) around existence.
Adya articulated this beautifully and simply, by stating; — "There is some thing more primary, behind the 'ego', the 'wanter'. This is the "pure awareness." "Everything else, is added on."
Yep, me ❤ Looks like the games began, a looooong time ago. And we're STILL playin' em, hey? LOL! 😀
Good one…. now about the ”pure awareness”’ . Awareness can only be if the person knows that something can be ”aware ”of.
By becoming aware, having awareness at that moment there is on added element. Pure what?
PS. “So now I get what you think! 😀 Also what Elizabeth does too!”” NO.. you do not know what Marildi think or I think… you only know what you read how you understood what you read and that is your reality but you never will know what I have written what that meant to me. and that is a fact.
Example: we can share on apple but we only can taste that apple for self . Same goes when reading-or communicating vocally.
Elizabeth, thank you for your responses. 🙂
It is fun to pretend that I have freewill. I do it everyday.
Yet imagining an “uncaused cause” (brilliantly concise and precise btw, love it) is as difficult to imagine as “undisturbed space.” There’s no example in our known world to compare it to. The very word “cause” is fraught with assumptions of originality, for which again we have no known example except in the abstract. Any examples of cause will be found to be quite relative, conditioned, and impermanent.
Up there with freewill ranks “real time,” and “present time.” Great abstractions and part of the human experience (the abstractions, not the things themselves!) 🙂
“Rebel without a cause” 🙂
Now that’s a cool comment 🙂
And meaningful too. Dragos wins the prize for wit. 🙂
Geir, am I allowed to comment here? Free Will- these concept is interesting.
Sure. Go ahead.
thanks much… role your sleeves up… and take a relaxing cup of strong coffee: bit of contradiction right there.
I start from the top. 🙂
“Rebel without a cause” 🙂
Perfect Dragos! LOL
How arrogant we have become, in our assumption of “knowing”
How humbled we would be, were we to accept and embrace the simplicity of truly just “BE-ing”, is sufficient unto itself.
The world, as we formerly “knew” it, would return to it’s former “natural” order.
Would that leave “us” any worse off? There are a vast number of Earthlings who would challenge our “knowing”, if only they had the capacity to speak to us, directly. Sadly, only their rapidly decreasing habitats (and thus numbers) do the only speaking for them.
Broadly speaking, “Survival”, ironically, is under it’s greatest threat since the advent of the “explosion of knowledge”
Imho, only a person devoid of humility, would not be able to see that.
Paradoxically, this much vaunted topic of FREE will could be labelled a curse, to those under threat of extinction.
Could the goldfish leaping from the bowl, (in the OP graphic) have actually been fleeing the toxic water, which we “knew” to be “safe?”
Just another punt for our fellow EARTHLINGS, sadly, MORE in tune with Nature, than even our best efforts to be. … Sigh… 🙂
How IS one cause without prior cause?
Well, here is how I do it. I run memory palaces. And I create different universes in my imagination to house my memory palaces. In each one is a different version of me and a place where each one meditates.
Weird? You have no idea …
You will never see this in any religion except my own personal weird-ass batshit. You are free to prove me wrong with a reference to someone else who does this as an actual spiritual practice other than my crazy ass.
I’m sure it’s not original.
Step 1. ACCEPT that your experience in this world has NO free will on it’s own. It’s the “dropping of ego” thing and we all fucking hate it for the most part. You WANT IT, but you aint GOT it. It requires something OUTSIDE this universe to happen. So …
Step 2. Realize that in a multiverse, there are other versions of you. One of them is IMAGINING your exact life in a meditation as a practice. This version of you sees your life AS YOU LIVE IT.
Step 3. Even though, your life MAY or MAY NOT dependent upon your twins imagination, you both can connect across the various universes because you both DECIDED TO.
EXAMPLE: You imagine Albert Einstein on the commode and for some crazy reason in 1910 Albert Einstein imagined you sitting on a rock thinking about him. Even though you are two different people, did a CONNECTION actually take place because of the fact that time is an illusion?
Step 4. Imagine another version of you different than the one imagining you. That version of you is imagining the you that is imagining you. Now you have a trinity.
A imagines B. B imagines C and C imagines A. Next go for 5. Then ten. Then blow it up.
Step 5. It’s time for the step of faith. 1. Realize you don’t exist NATURALLY as a free will being in one universe. For free will to exist it must be a DECISION outside this universe. So … decide to exist in spite of the entirety of existence and science fighting to PREVENT that very thing. Find the static that connects the three (and other) versions of you and realize that ALL versions of you are connected BY that decision and that decision is what makes the static possible.
Step 6. In this mythology, as one universe of you dies, the others remember and recreate you by virtue of the static they created mutually within another one.
Step 7. Your actions in one universe are in this mythology the free will choices you make here. The choices you make in another universe are the manifested choices HERE. And the static version of you accelerates this process.
PROOF? Nope. Ain’t got shit. This here, my friends is what I call madness. But it’s a madness I enjoy and IMHO the best shot at finding a real free will.
Most likely, it will bust. But if not, I had a GREAT ride in my own head.
And if free will exists, it is certainly mad IMHO.
KG, That is at least equally as valid as any theism.
Yeah, and THAT’S the bad news right? 🙂
Hahaha, no. Not bad.
Kat, that’s not mad at all. Fits in well with the concept of “higher self”.
I call it madness because I think the higher self is ACTUALLY mad.
It exists AND it doesn’t exist. That is insanity by definition IMHO.
Doesn’t mean it can’t be transcendent though.
There is a term in buddhism called “Crazy Wisdom.” Maybe this is it.
Regardless IMHO, free will IF it exists is not natural. It doesn’t “self emerge” it would have to DECIDE first to exist and then and only then could it occur.
But … because of the paradoxical nature of it, there will NEVER be proof. In every universe, the experiments would ALWAYS point to it being a fabrication.
Meaning that certainty is never going to exist based on evidence. Certainty is an EXPERIENCE that can be created without any data at all.
Just be. Certain. No attachments FOR the certainty to hang upon.
Boundless and detached certainty.
The Bible says the “Word made flesh.” I say, “The Batshit made self.”
Most people think the soul in it’s base state is “pure and wise and transcendent.”
Me thinks it’s a couple of espresso shots short of a latte.
Look what happens to so many people who ascend religious systems only to become the weirdest people you have ever met?
Yup. Closer to their base souls all right. THAT’S what it looks like.
Columbia gets it in the Rocky Horror Picture Show. In the song “Eddie’s Teddy” she begs Eddie to “stay sane inside insanity.”
But Eddie couldn’t BALANCE the crazy and the rational.
And THAT points to the “false dichotomy”.
COLUMBIA sees sanity/insanity as parts of the same system of being.
People SEPARATE the two and the two are in fact – the same. Sanity is the subset of batshit and balancing the subset with the master set is … LIFE.
IMHO until one is safe with one’s true spiritual batshit nature one isn’t safe at all.
And in my experience as a human being, I have YET to meet a rational one of us!
“And in my experience as a human being, I have YET to meet a rational one of us!”
Agreed. Irrationality (as in without ratio) is for me the natural or native state of the Universe. At least around here where I live.
“Meaning that certainty is never going to exist based on evidence. Certainty is an EXPERIENCE that can be created without any data at all.”
Yup, this is well written KG. Methinks the yearning for certainty is the crazy maker. Identifying what one does not know, holding that delicately as though something fragile, and wheedling down the fractal margin of that uncertainty in a way that makes living more accurate and efficient is intelligent, – not being certain. Every asshole with an opinion is certain, nothing neat about that. In line with your posts, certainty is the even ratio, and as I’ve written, that is neither natural nor sane. So much for “knowingness.”
Or was that every “opinion with an asshole?” Fuck, I give up.
If it can be transcended then there is an even higher self (or something that could be nothing, well language just isn’t suitable to describe such things). LOL but defintely not insane although one could drive oneself mad holding an is and isn’t at the same time for as you correctly stated: insanity is holding a belief and it’s opposite at the same time.
Just read Geir’s paper. I’m of the mind that consciousness is senior to the physical universe. I don’t subscribe to the Objective Theory.
“There is a term in buddhism called “Crazy Wisdom.” Maybe this is it.”
Yes, maybe. Rather than resisting what we don’t know, it is freeing and less crazy making to identify what we don’t know or can’t understand and learn to live with it. My education seemed a psychotic paper chase to erase all the dark areas of understanding with light even when that light didn’t improve living, thus my rejection of religion wholesale. What I’ve found is that the discomforts of not knowing dissipate once I reconditioned myself to live with it. It’s not that bad. Certainty – bleh. Madison Avenue crap.
Good grounded living and thinking Chris. You are way more practical and grounded than I am.
I keep coming back to the zen story:
TEACHER: “What is the Buddha dharma?”
STUDENT: “No gaining. No knowing.”
TEACHER: “Anything else?”
STUDENT: “The mountain doesn’t care about the passing clouds.”
If I took a stone off a mountain is IT the mountain? No. It’s a stone.
If I cut a mountain up into granite blocks are the BLOCKS the mountain?
So the mountain comes and goes as the earth evolves and the sun eventually goes “BOOM” …
The mountain is then asteroids and dust.
BUT what ELSE can the mountain be a metaphor for?
Some say it is a buddha metaphor. Others say the monk. Others say the disciplined practitioner in zazen.
I WANT TO BELIEVE that the “Mountain” could be the trans-universal decision of an EMERGENT self to choose to exist as a POSTULATED self.
And boy am I biased there. I want that to be possible.
Soto Zen has a notion one uses when practicing Zazen. They call it …
“The Will to the Truth”.
Could the “will to the truth” actually be a decision of an emergent self to exist in spite of the universe it emerged within?
And my batshit mythology (batshit being both a judgement AND a defining element of it’s tenets) is the closest thing I can find to creating a die I can actually roll in defiance to the forced dissolution of my emerged “false self.”
What if the mountain exists in several places in different universes with different space/time continuums? If each perceives the other, does the IDEA of a mountain spring into being outside of the universes they exist in by virtue of their decision?
Since, the mountains are in different space/time universes, “before and after” are NOT part of their relation. Such a decision to exist would be outside time or “forever.”
Bottom line? I will dream up pretty much ANY shit to find ANY chance for my free will soul to exist. Because even a lottery’s chance would make it worth rolling dice for bazillions of lifetimes. We don’t know if a chance for it exists, but we can decide to act like there is one.
So for me, I think I’ll use this metaphor as a practice, but I’ll never believe in it. Why? Because we cannot KNOW. The monks were fucking right:
There is no fucking gaining. There is no fucking knowing.
But we can decide to have … a will to the truth: a mountain that cares not about the passing clouds because it has transcended them.
IMHO the truth is a lie. And not just a lie:
The “Truth” is batshit.
Thanks. You might enjoy this:
Chinese proverb – “There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same”
“Bottom line? I will dream up pretty much ANY shit to find ANY chance for my free will soul to exist.”
And nothing at all wrong with that when we know that we are doing it. There is peace in knowing ourselves not as a kernel of ultimate truth, but rather as a friendly familiarity. And that’s a good thing and how I see you Kat. You are undeservedly hard on yourself. I think you’re brilliant. Love you.
“There is no fucking gaining. There is no fucking knowing.”
Not in an absolute sense, no. But in a truthful sense, yes. There is relative, conditioned, and impermanent, both knowing and gaining. This is the heart and soul of science.
“I keep coming back to the zen story:”
And I keep coming back to Korzibskey, ” . . . you see a disk where there is no disk. Some call this an illusion. It is not an illusion, it is an abstraction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-7zYBKgzfs
William ”’Bottom line? I will dream up pretty much ANY shit to find ANY chance for my free will soul to exist. Because even a lottery’s chance would make it worth rolling dice for bazillions of lifetimes. We don’t know if a chance for it exists, but we can decide to act like there is one.””
This concept is interesting BUT the dreamed up shit is still just that, dreamed up shit but by WHO?
Reasons do not make the being…. the soul to exist… the soul exists without having or needing reasons.
William “What if the mountain exists in several places in different universes with different space/time continuums? If each perceives the other, does the IDEA of a mountain spring into being outside of the universes they exist in by virtue of their decision? “”
Since it is you who question, than it is you who know the answer.
What real to you is real to you, and that reality is not bad or good, or mad… but simply real.
Katageek …..”The “Truth” is batshit.””
it seem for you that is the truth and that belief will remain till you find a different answer.
So, aren’t you saying that you went from the certainty that you could not live with not knowing, to the certainty that you could live with not knowing? Isn’t your certainty the constant? Only your considerations about what you were certain of changed? Your feeling of certainty itself did not change?
For some unknown reason, I was not able to post my comment as “valkov” and tried logging in with my Facebook account, then it posted….?
I have no idea why.
Valkov, Maybe in a circular world?
“Only your considerations about what you were certain of changed? Your feeling of certainty itself did not change?”
Hey Elliot, I finally got to a sit down computer so I could write, typing on my phone is a bitch. I like that you brought this up and it makes for a neat argument. I can see how you would ask that. I think that if we redefine certainty so there is no such thing as uncertainty then yes. But I don’t want to give the idea that I don’t understand your question which I do. Fits neatly into my Tautological Universe. LOL!
katageek madness is a term and nothing more. But madness is described by humans that who is mad, that person is not in harmony… not in agreement with the group therefore that person is labeled as bad-mad etc..
But in fact that person only have different reality on the same subject.
Higher- self? in my reality just enjoying different reality. 🙂
Elizabeth, have you ever met someone who could reason completely well and yet was totally bonkers?
That is the base self. Batshit that can reason. Free Will is then the progression AWAY from that base self, not a return to it.
A movement toward the subset of reason so that realities can be consistent even if at the very core notion that …
The universes actually ARE bonkers.
A movement toward the subset of reason so that realities and universes can be consistent even if they’re core creating elements are …
No William I dont have reality on that… I only know-understand that every subject has as many sides- reality as those persons who know that subject.
just because I have 50 different ways to look at and describe the same ”apple” that do not mean I believe that any of the description is madness. Simply means: I know that subject well.
PS: I dont believe that there is ”free will” what Geir describes in the existence for any person long as they are attached to the body, even in ”ghostly” state no one is truly free because their life experiences do effects souls.
I certainly grant beingness to your viewpoints on that , but isn’t that a rather pessimist outlook about life and existence , dear Elizabeth ?
You know , attempting to recover Self by going down the track can become a severely introverting endeavor indeed. Look what happened to “The Pilot” and to CBR. Look what happened to LRH himself. Just be careful , dear ; I assure that all answers you might be looking for are within yourself right in PT. Just a thought , dear Elizabeth.
Peter… You dont know me well enough to understand what outlook I have on life or being human robot.
I will allow your beingness what you believe in which is born out not having enough experience on the matter of what sessions and cognitions are and what cognitions do. Me being a Dear hehehe you think because the body here is 76 year old you are talking to on ”old lady”, I got news for you but better not write that news here… I dont want to shock you further into that solid PT you are in. But thank you for your kind concern. your words-consideration is the reminder what I have as-ised.
Dear me… MY MOUTH IS IN MY FOOT AGAIN! 🙂 LOL.
Got it , Elizabeth ; thanks.
no hard feelings.. blogging is about learning, and to have fun. 🙂
PS:::: PETER…..THERE IS NO SUCH A THING AS “”SELF”” THEREFORE IT CANT BE RECOVERED WHAT NEVER EXISTED!
THETACLEAR: “You know , attempting to recover Self by going down the track can become a severely introverting endeavor indeed. Look what happened to “The Pilot” and to CBR. Look what happened to LRH himself.”
And look at Chögyam Trungpa who was a drunk, womanizer and smoker.
What if .. what IF … the scary thing isn’t that they FAILED, but that they ACTUALLY succeeded in getting closer to their personal version of “source”? And since batshit is ENDLESS, are there are an infinite number of ways to be your own batshit?
What if it’s not ABOUT returning?
What if it’s about LEAVING IT BEHIND? And that THAT is .. could be the root of a free will choice? And the free will choice is not in the WHAT but the HOW?
William well said.. very well in did…yes to some that grand old sensation called Fear is truly the glue which holds them back in petrified position. Those who fear never know the joy facing the unknown, and they never find out that unknown is only un-known because they consider that is. 🙂 and fear is just on consideration.
What you say about the Free Will, I have looked at that possibility some years back, but I have found the tread which is ”searching” for the way out… therefor there is on earlier thing and I cant call what I am doing is out of Free Will …by the definition what Geir written.
You said ”’And the free will choice is not in the WHAT but the HOW?””
I am mauling this… I have dedicated my whole life to do what I do now that is out of sheer will but not free will because if I know what I want to be out of, so there connection and the what the tool I use, the HOW and the decision that it works I have arrived to that because comparison to other means and failures. Again no free will exist by Geirs definition.
Batshit reasoning I think I call that bank! That crap sounds so good while the person is in agreement with those beliefs ”” poor captain bill”’ but soon the agreements are dissolved well, than it is just batshit.
“And look at Chögyam Trungpa who was a drunk, womanizer and smoker.”
Peter : Uhm , I don’t know about him ; too many controversies surrounding his life .
“What if .. what IF … the scary thing isn’t that they FAILED, but that they ACTUALLY succeeded in getting closer to their personal version of “source”? And since batshit i s ENDLESS, are there are an infinite number of ways to be your own batshit?”
Peter : I don’t know about that ; “Own personal version of ‘Source’ ” ? Too metaphysical for me ; I am afraid that life is just TOO simple for me. I don’t care about the person past. Our past is our life lessons that built our character. I was referring to the state of case of those I mentioned in my reply to Elizabeth ; a state of severe fears, introversion , and delusions. Whatever “Source” they “found” , was the core of case itself.
“What if it’s not ABOUT returning?”
“What if it’s about LEAVING IT BEHIND? And that THAT is .. could be the root of a free will choice? And the free will choice is not in the WHAT but the HOW?”
Peter : No offense , but my thought patterns are quite simple , and doesn’t need metaphysical complications. Believe me , I know how booby-trapped that route is ; been there , done that.
Religion/philosophy went from very simple endeavor to a morass of complicated confusions and arbitraries. I am afraid that life is just TOO simple for others to confront : One has a BASIC PURPOSE ; one follows it ; and one then experiences the Joy of Creating and the Spirit of Play in a totally extroverted state of mind , and no “Where do we come from ?” , “Who really am I ?” , or “Where are we going ?” really matter ,but only the playing of the game itself. THAT’S the simplicity of life to me. I am WAY pass “Total Freedom” ; not interested.
No offense taken Peter.
No religion offered either.
Even if you wanted Total Freedom. I don’t have it.
ZEN PHRASE: “There are no Zen teachers.”
TRANSLATION: Nobody can teach you enlightenment. If it a reality, one must find it oneself.
And if one says one has it, one is most likely batshit.
Peter, here is my net net.
1. Enlightenment if it exists at all is batshit. And it is AT LEAST bullshit.
2. If one gets it, one will BE batshit, and one will ESPOUSE bullshit.
3. Freedom is at least being honest you are bullshitting others. Integrity is being honest you are bullshitting yourself.
Sadly, I have a propensity for batshit and bullshit.
My apologies. Really.
Peter, I need a re-do on a post. Here it is:
1. Free-will-self-determined living if it exists at all – is batshit. And it is AT LEAST bullshit in our universe.
2. If one gets it, one will BE batshit, and one will ESPOUSE bullshit.
3. Integrity is at least being honest you are bullshitting others. Freedom is being honest you are actually batshit and are bullshitting yourself.
I have reread what you have written, I would never to take away your reality, you would miss the odor.
I’ve read your stuff too sweetie.
And you are very close to the base self just like LRH. In fact, I think you are greater than he is.
You are more OT than Captain Bill and the Pilot.
You. Are. Enlightened.
Enlightened ??? I dont have reality on that outside that concept which used to separate self and put self to higher level, on indicator than I am better than others are because I know the right way and I know what is is important and you —you low life haven’t the clue what it is like to be up here where the air is thin! LOL the concept ”enlightened” equals =ego.
If you Are trying to insult me… hehehe… you have to get up earlier to do that..
I never met either man therefore I will not compare realities because that too is impossible to achieve.
I left the church in 82… and I mean I left it.: it policies-rules-regulations etc… I use words what I have learned because William I not only suffered brain damage but were born with 2 kind of dyslexia [ no amount od sessions could correct that…but I have found the reason–the cause of dyslexia.] so to me to switch to learn new words how to express what I am doing- well forget that crap.
William, what I do is same as any other person do… ”my own thing” and that is totally Unique to me but the same goes for others.
What I believe in is only true to me and these beliefs dont make me better, above any other believes or more or less important… in fact that concept is not in the picture.. I am just different.. and there is no more.
PS: I never seen LRH to be close to the base. BASE DO NOT HOLD-contain
FEAR.. And what base could meant to you to that I haven’t the clue. OT????? I haven’t the clue what that means either because I have as-ised those concepts decades back. By now I have realised IF I CAN AS_IS ON CONVCEPT THAN IT WAS ON ALTERED REALITY. OT? This Universe dont have on OT, which in my consideration would be on OT.
Your Evaluation William is yours alone and if you meant it as on insult.. well I said You need to get up earlier and dig up really fresh ideas and if you meant your evaluation as on compliment… LOL… now LOL … I think I will use my very favorite word on you :IDIOT. 🙂 you like 🙂 ?????
PS: maybe some day I will tell you what that word means to me., but first have to give up wearing dippers.
Now William that is on insult! But I love you any way! 🙂
William… BASE to reach to attain that level means LIMITED TO THAT EXTANT.. any one who believes that there is a base, have reached whatever … in that moment that soul has locked himself into permanent position Example: I am the light! I am Enlightened!
You can have your base but I think I just continue free-floating. LOL . Bloody Hell.. what fun.. what adventure! 🙂
Sail on sister. If we are each our own liberators, then we each have our own paths.
“No Zen Teachers Allowed.”
When one is on a solo adventure, walks a path alone which this person never walked before than that person not likely have a desire to teach or preach.
I haven’t found the way to walk on somebody else’s path yet.. Maybe when I reach the reality of captain bills or LRH’s or when I become on OT I can.
We can’t get the base Elizabeth! There is a conspiracy!
And I don’t want to return to mine (if it exists as this is merely a mythology).
and I never had such a belief -reality or in fact a recall that there is a base.. This to concept to me is new.
I see.. we were talking about 2 different whatever. By the way do read your email.. the private one. 🙂
I got and understood all your replies , Katageek ; thank you.
Elizabeth, this is what I think a soul evolved from “batshit” looks like in pop culture IMBO. (In My Batshit Opinion).
So, please don’t think I’m insulting you. Remember the ten Bodhidharma Precept?
“Self nature is mysteriously profound. In the dharma of oneness not making a distinction between buddhas and sentient beings is called ‘not slandering the three jewels’.”
Let’s say for the sake of discussion she is a result of this “batshit” mythology of the soul and that she is quite evolved, but not by erasure of trauma but by ACQUISITION OF ABILITY AND COURAGE. This video isn’t her base self. But her cray-cray is STILL easily apparent. The crazy … has grown.
Hopefully, NONE of us are ever sane. For that is the day we truly die!
reality on any subject is many faceted and each when viewed in that moment is on experience and real and true.
Brian… care to explain who or what is ”higher self”?
KG I love your multiverses bullshit. You bastard. You fucking amazingly crazy bastard.
In our fucking minds we create our selves and that is cause without prior cause and cause without reason. And that is all that we are and all that we will ever be. I just decided that is the only certainty I will be certain of. I like that certainty. I can have a life to my satisfaction with it.
Also, if that were not true I will never know, so why bother? That would really, truly, be a stupid waste of time in my book.
“I can have a life to my satisfaction with it. Also, if that were not true I will never know, so why bother? That would really, truly, be a stupid waste of time in my book.”
I know, me too! The beliefs and opinions that I hold and spout for our discussions are partitioned in a fun way from what I can describe as the “facts” I apply to get through my daily reality. It’s all good, as you say, I’m never going to know the difference anyway.
We see eye to eye brother
That’s why I almost don’t post here, you already covered my views.
This is becoming so boring… From now on
I’ll try to find ways to be in opposition to you (and KG) (and Geir) to at least generate some randomity, otherwise i’ll remain silent
This is my Boy scout’s promise
“I’ll try to find ways to be in opposition to you (and KG) (and Geir) to at least generate some randomity, otherwise i’ll remain silent. This is my Boy scout’s promise…”
LOL! I know, we need it! It’s like you can only mow the grass just so much . . . I laugh at the stuff I’ve written in years past and get embarrassed when I read it….
Exactly! And I think it’s begining to seem as if I were just kissing your asses but I’m not I’m not I swear!!!!
LOL! Well, I have been kissing your ass for a long time! I would have hoped you’d noticed! hahahaha
You are just being very polite with me and I appreciate it my friend
Not so! I love your heart and the hard work you’ve put to put aside ego to become as broadminded as you are. Your writing is second to none! We are going to meet one day and I look forward to that day. Love, Chris
We will meet for sure. I look forward to that day also. We have traveled very similar paths and you have been a superb comrade
Sorry for the delay Rafael. I get stumped by kind words sometimes. So THANK YOU.
You’re welcome brother atolladero
Sorry it ways my cel phone correcting my message in spanish 😁
Still Awakening …. the view from the mountain top is different for each and every one.
“A definition, perhaps fundamental, of Free Will could be ’cause without prior cause’ – or the equivalent, ’cause without reason’.”
I think this is a fine definition of Free Will. One of my first contacts with Geir was in reading his essay “On Free Will” years ago and at that time I thought it was one of the most brilliant pieces I had ever read on the subject.
Years later, I still think it is brilliant. Concise and precise. But I have changed. Back then I yearned for Free Will. Now, having practices with big and small numbers until my brain flexes better with large orders of magnitude, I embrace a vast universe in which there is plenty of room for all my maunderings. Lately when people can read my somewhat deterministic responses to this debate, I want to state that I neither yearn for determinism, nor for free will. But I do yearn to understand things. And I wonder at this debate sometimes — quite a bit.
I’ve come to see the argument for free will as a theistic one. The neverending search for causality seems a theistic one as well. I do not know the answer. Maybe there is a flaw in the premises of this debate.
But I wonder at the complexity of the changes in myself. Why do I change my stable ideas to other stable ideas in the face of evidence?
Geir’s defn of free will is paradoxical and beyond scientific replication.
And I think that is one thing that will never change IF this operating paradox exists.
Since we are most certainly faced with a un-compromizing “unprovability” of free will scientifically, we, who by our natures desire to be free-will beings, are doomed to face disappointment in fulfilling that desire IF we choose to give that desire the power of being “truth”.
Because such a value label is power.
I am of the opinion that IF it exists, it will always be an unprovable existence. I think we can count on the free will being an undemonstrated pipe dream for humans like we can count on the tides.
But for free will to exist as FREE, that is exactly how it would have to be – a violation of reason itself.
Free will IMHO must be batshit.
Read Geir’s definition again. If that isn’t crazy what is?
So, speaking practically, what I think we can best achieve is an EXPERIENCE of free will while leaving it forever unsolved by reason.
I’m convinced that if it exists, one must declare it so against all logic, reason and illogic. A free will soul to be “free” could never be a product of “dependent arising” as the buddhists say, but a completely insane, self-referential, evolving decision that can look at and observe versions of itself “dependently arise.”
Remember Don Quixote.
I think the old time Scieftologist John Rafanello is absolutely crazy. Want proof?
This lecture is fucking batshit. We have the choice to create our OWN insanity anywhere we want?
If so .. be the batshit you want to see in the world. If there is free will, IMHO it is that.
Pat attention at 3:55.
“So, speaking practically, what I think we can best achieve is an EXPERIENCE of free will while leaving it forever unsolved by reason.”
Good post KG. This experience of which you speak is what Korzybski calls abstraction. I like that idea of abstraction as he says rather than “illusion.” It allows for an objective universe while at the same time allowing for a working definition of observation aside from that objectivity. I like that. Calms my nerves! hahaha
“And I think that is one thing that will never change IF this operating paradox exists.”
Paradoxes are for me an indicator of flawed thinking. They seem to falsify both. I love them for that.
“Geir’s defn of free will is paradoxical and beyond scientific replication.”
Yes, and correctly and succinctly stated?
“I think the old time Scieftologist John Rafanello is absolutely crazy.”
And I know that you mean that with the warmest respect. I loved him too. John Rafanello was a wonderful man who would have been that wonderful man on any path he would have walked in life. You are right. John absolutely was the “batshit that he wanted to see in the world,” like we were all supposed to be as Scientologists. Some of us were. I’m still hoping there’s hope for me. Another definition for batshit: “joyful, ego-less love.” — my definition.
I do mean that respectfully. Guy was a freaking rocket scientist and I sense nothing but kindness from him in how he communicates.
Bigger than life, he was. 🙂
“. . . He lays down the melancholy burden of sanity.”
“Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be.”
KG, I am understanding your batshit better and better. ~Chris
I am getting t the point where I am agreeing with Kata… :-O
Language can be hard to bridge, but it’s so much easier when we simply want to understand one another.
Did JR pass away Chris?
He mentions something I never caught about Don Quixote.
JR: “Most people don’t realize he made a CONSCIOUS decision to see it as he wished it to be.”
Steve Job’s reality distortion field didn’t have SHIT on Don Quixote. And THAT is the point.
What could fire and sustain such a stable chosen path of batshit? One standard argument used by religious people is the most common one I can think of.
“Can you absolutely prove it isn’t true?”
No. One cannot prove a negative and that notion is used all the time by true believers.
But few actually use it to believe whatever THEY WANT the universe to be. Sure, you can’t prove Jesus WASN’T the Christ. But on the same token, you can’t prove Elizabeth Hamre isn’t sending her astral body to another universe and creating a multiverse either!
I think Elizabeth creates better batshit as it is HER creation rather than a borrowed creation of another like with Jesus.
So … yeah.
“Religions are for the most part – bat, but religion is not.” – Kurt Godel
Yes, a year ago this month.
Yes, people sometimes think Don Quixote was the effect of his batshit rather than affecting it. But Viktor Frankl disagrees.
“What could fire and sustain such a stable chosen path of batshit?” FAITH brother. Choosing faith for better or worse is batshit.
But the difference is that one can KNOW that one if following batshit. Real faith BELIEVES their batshit is the truth.
They thus believe that their batshit aint guano!
“They thus believe that their batshit aint guano!”
Then maybe we circle back around to purpose. Is deciding one’s own purpose batshit? Was Don Quixote effect or affect, neither or both? It kind of rolls back around to the apathy of “nothing matters.” Everybody has that cog, don’t we? Is purpose batshit? Is life batshit?
Me? I don’t think life is batshit and I don’t think it is not batshit. I’m cultivating that middle ground of trying to know what I know about what I think I know and trying to not know what I couldn’t possibly know. I’m trying to steer clear of faith and yet I do practice it somewhat everyday. I try to remember that my experience of life is internal yet I emanate that attitude and experience outward. Imagination is wondrous. LOL! I twist and frolic for a little while and then I’m gone. My holding to things lightly like a small bird in my hands aware of its fragility keeps me mindful and acutely aware of the fragility of the constructs of life. The enormous orders of magnitude make it seem eternal but it all comes and it goes. But what does that translate to in daily living? Speaking nicely to my wife and kids and being kind to do a favor for a neighbor. Things like that. Plato’s “Be kind for everyone is fighting a hard battle” takes on a holy quality. So then who will ring the chicken’s neck for dinner? I guess I will do that too.
CHRIS: “Me? I don’t think life is batshit and I don’t think it is not batshit. I’m cultivating that middle ground of trying to know what I know about what I think I know and trying to not know what I couldn’t possibly know. I’m trying to steer clear of faith and yet I do practice it somewhat everyday.”
But Chris, you CAN use Batshit to make good things grow! Batshit can help your garden, your houseplants. And if you eat your vegetables grown from Batshit you are stronger!
In my Batshit Philosophy, life isn’t batshit. Free-will living emerges FROM batshit’s mere addition. It in this mythology is a subset of the batshit master set.
But I know you need proof. And I will not fail you there. Hard Science. Hard.
Add this to your tomatoes.
((LOOKS AWAY SMUGLY AND BLISSFULLY))
So, as you can see, I have provided squat for real proof of my position.
I ain’t got batshit on batshit.
Maybe I will eat batshit directly and bypass the senseless slaughtering innocent vegetables. Now that’s batshit.
sweet pot… that is you! 🙂 What I can do how I see the universe around me, I dont write about because no one would believe it and BY now I dont need agreement-acknowledgement from any one to tell me if it is real or not: because I know what I know and what I can do and that is enough from me. I am not in confusion, not for the second.
But William, I also know where I have failed so far that ”failure” simply means I haven’t asked the right questions.
And these failures are the motivators and I will not give in till I find the answers to my questions on any subject or ability I want to gain.
I have to admit I still like to share my ”findings” because it fun to share… and I guess that is the reason my blog has lots of visitors.
I have fascinating discoveries on Power for example… it is mind boggling and Marildi said the scientist should be asking questions from me…. hehehe… now who the hell would believe what I can see and do?
William, I am not doing astral body thing… that idea has its limitation because it contains too much mass-vibration it is a form after all.
But I have a much more affective method to cause and to change the Universe.
batshit? why not! dont make any difference what label is hanged on any vibration… the vibration is not affected. 🙂
Don Quixote … yes.. what ever he belied in was real and true for him.
It was a bad example dear.
But I can’t prove anything you write doesn’t happen.
good one, thanks..no problem, but what is bad example is your reality which is formed by how you see the universe. So evaluation is always present.
How I see the Universe (My Bad Example):
1. There is no absolute knowing.
2. There is no absolute gaining.
3. If a soul exists outside the Universe, it is paradoxical and larger than the logics and physics that run the universe referencing it.
4. Thus the soul, if it can exist upon it’s own declare, cannot be proven in this universe.
5. And one cannot tell if the self-experience in one universe is based on free will OR determinism or a mix as we may be part of a system that cannot exteriorize from itself other than in fantasy.
6. Imagination is our one place where we are all powerful.
7. Many people lay claim to liberation, but none have reliable evidence to prove it.
8. The higher spiritual levels that people tend to reach, the more they typically act batshit. Therefore, I would posit that progressing toward the base self is crazy and sanity is stepping away from that and evolving and creating.
9. I know I happened ONCE. Therefore I am possible. And if the dice keep rolling I will happen again and maybe be able to roll my own dice myself.
10. The best hope for the souls self-referring existence lies in mathematical and geometrical realism. As Godel said, “There are innumerable more a-priori than are currently known” and nothing would be more “a-priory” than a being.
Sorry for the bad example sweetie. I’ll try to get better.
I was fine with your reality, totally OK..
true power is not in any imagined incident.. just because the person say and believe ”I am powerful because etc..” that has nothing to do with universal power.
I am out… be well.
PS: power is not in the doing-ness the act it self. but in the still-ness. The Act only contains power what the consideration is, same goes for the belief what is value, beauty etc.. and as you know if it has been a consideration than it had no value in the first place.
Minden Jot !
Atwhay oesday indenmay otjay eanmay? Ooglegay ayssay othingnay!
=all the best!
Talk about BATSHIT. Here is a guy who claims he met his future self and took a video of him with his future self. Would be interested to see if his face has been checked with a computer to see if it is the same guy.
He reportedly liked his time with his future self.
I think I can take some measurements from the screen and compare them …
If this happened to me, I would be beside myself!
My guess is that they are henna tats and this is a scam.
So fun! I want to try a scam like that! 🙂
But it’s a GREAT scam. Love it.
As written above, I really like your definition of “cause without prior cause,” but I especially like, “cause without reason.” These definitions are clear, concise, and precise. Being on the same page of understanding is important for a discussion.
Geir wrote, “To avoid cognitive dissonance, one would be well advised to act according to one’s beliefs. Thus, if one believe in free will, then one should act accordingly, accepting responsibility for one’s actions. If one does not believe in free will, then there is no responsibility or accountability or purpose in life and one should act accordingly. If one would want to avoid the cognitive dissonance.”
I like to think that I do this. One of my many beliefs is that, “One should not avoid cognitive dissonance but rather use cognitive dissonance as a tool to ferret out inconsistencies in one’s beliefs.” The entire subject of free will maintains a sort of tension in my thoughts because the subject is so very paradoxical thus hard to discuss. Geir has done a service to the discussion of free will by laying out a simple definition so at least there is a clear beginning point. Since our previous exchange above, I’ve done a bit of reading on what others write on the subject, especially with an eye toward any empirical evidence.
Geir, in case you haven’t seen this …
Yes. And Bell’s theorem.
Dear Great and Mighty Freewill Explorer of Norway,
I have a burning problem for you! One you may want to post as a thread.
It’s the Free-Will POWER Problem: How do we increase our free-will SUPER POWER IN THIS LIFE?
L. Ron Hubbard: Claimed to be OT but couldn’t quit smoking and had a history of drug use and womanizing and documented bigamy. Many OT VIII still can’t put the cigs down.
Alistair Crowley: Big time magician whose wife died in a Sanitarium from alcoholic dementia because she couldn’t quit alcohol, and later Crowley died addicted to heroin and cocaine and he couldn’t kick his heroin addiction even though he deeply tried. He was also a syphilitic sex fiend who was aware of his illness and didn’t care enough to reign in his appetite for the sake of others.
Chögyam Trungpa: Was an alcoholic, womanizer and smoker..
Why DID neither of their “techs” make them cause over the cycle of actions regarding their own bodies addictions?
What Tech WILL deliver that basic ability if any?
Fuck lifting the ash tray. How in the fuck do we gain will power over everything from getting up early in the AM to exercise to saying no to bad foods and other areas.
One of my favorite stores was a friend of mine who made a bet he could get hooked on smoking and get off of it. He mocked the will power of friends he had who smoked.
He’s still smoking.
What Tech WILL deliver the ability to make lasting choices in the face of fierce addictions?
Here is the awesome Dan Ariely. But HOW does one merely JUST WILL IT and not fail EVERY TIME?
He seems to rely on tricks and thus is weak and pathetic! A real man would just DO IT. GRRRR! ((THUMP! THUMP! THUMP!))
Bad Ebiditng. Let me redo that question:
“Here is the awesome Dan Ariely. But HOW does one merely JUST WILL IT and NOT ever fail?”
“I have a burning problem for you! One you may want to post as a thread.”
That was Geir’s desire as well. Mine not quite so lofty. I actually had lots of fun auditing and presumed that at my low levels one could not expect (hidden standard) too much (batman, superman). So didn’t. After running these various processes and being the man behind the curtain myself, I got mad in hindsight! hahaha, that was stupid but human.
I’m not talking “Scientology Tech” but ANY tech!
Dan’s video is pretty awesome.
At least you didn’t believe in the Easter Zombie God. I actually believed that story.
Easter zombie? Of course I did.
God, is there hope for ANY of us?
Hope? . . . Nope. Haha
katageek: “What Tech WILL deliver the ability to make lasting choices in the face of fierce addictions?
That would be the tech that frees the person from the mind’s conditioning – also called the ego. Here’s 5 minutes of elaboration on that:
Thank you Marildi. Mooji doesn’t have a real job and as you know I don’t trust spiritual teachers much. I tried to find dirt on Mooji, but sadly, I couldn’t.
So I can’t discredit him for a disgusting life like Alistair Crowley!
… You’re …. GOOD … too … GOOD …
Okay … Marildi …
((A TUMBLE WEED ROLLS BY. WESTERN MUSIC PLAYS))
…. So I’ll go with the advice that your guy whose name sounds like a new chain of Frozen Yogurt Shops and see if I get what you are saying.
So, I connect to the “Real Me” and drop the “Conditioned Me” and then I can go off Dunkin Donuts Coffee and Alistair Crowley, if he knew the same trick, could have dropped Horse (heroin) and Blow (cocaine)?
If that is real why can’t Buddhist Lamas ditch the babes, bourbon and Benson and Hedges?
I’m asking sincerely in my unique, snarky way dearie.
I love your unique, snarky way! And this one was especially good. 😀
But to answer the question, first I’ll say that on the previous video, Mooji says to “use the addiction to find out WHO is addicted” – the idea being that you will learn to differentiate your true self from the ego self, and when you stop identifying with the ego you are no longer the effect of it. On the video below he says this: “Consciousness creates a problem in order to experience transcending the problem.”
The Buddhist Lamas you described obviously do not fit into the meaning of awakened – not yet, anyway. But they most likely have a strong will for liberation – and that is almost certainly why they are creating the problems for themselves.
Put another way, they have a strong will to discover TRUTH – which is basically how Elizabeth expressed it in a comment she just posted. It seems that the reason she created the problem she described was “in order to “transcend it” (as stated in the video below). In fact, if I remember right, she once said that she created the accident itself.
Btw, I hope you noticed that E.’s description of eliminating the stimulus-response mind amounts to the same thing as eliminating the ego. The only difference, IMO, is that the tech of auditing takes a lot longer because it thoroughly addresses the mind – but on the other hand, it is more accurate and, like a laser beam, more certain of cutting out the tumorous mind. 🙂
“Btw, I hope you noticed that E.’s description of eliminating the stimulus-response mind amounts to the same thing as eliminating the ego. The only difference, IMO, is that the tech of auditing takes a lot longer because it thoroughly addresses the mind – but on the other hand, it is more accurate and, like a laser beam, more certain of cutting out the tumorous mind. :)”
Wow. Just wow.
Chris: “Wow. Just wow.”
Okay, let me clarify what I meant. I’ll use the clear-cut example I gave in the recent comment I posted about an experience I had of “falling in love” with my auditor. I was even aware at the time that it was some sort of restimulation, but I was still at unwanted effect in the end.
It was handled in one very short session of about half an hour. That was possible for the simple reason that there is a precise tech for out-rudiments, i.e. ARC breaks, PTP’s and withholds. And if flying ruds doesn’t fully handle a particular restim, the indicated correction lists are then used.
Of course, such things might take longer than half an hour, but I don’t think it’s usually more than a few sessions to handle a recent upset of any kind. Other things may take an intensive or two over a period of couple weeks – such as the kinds of longstanding issues that are handled in Life Repair auditing. Now, what other practice do you know of that is as fast and “laser” precise? Or can even handle such things at all in a consistent way as opposed to hit and miss?
As for the non-dual route, as I understand it so far, there are certain practices that produce a greater and greater awareness of one’s own conditioning (the ego) and the ability to not identify with it. Things aren’t “erased” but when something appears, the person neither pushes it away nor pulls it in (“attaches” to it). At that point, even when things appear in the person’s universe, they have no effect. This isn’t necessarily a fast process (although it apparently can be) but the goal and result is full awakening/enlightenment.
I suppose some people might not agree that auditing is always able to handle specific issues and can do so relatively quickly, but what I observed in my 2 decades of experience in Scientology is that this happens the majority of the time. And I believe auditing could be used to boost non-dual practices by getting the major “attachments” out of the way. Plus, I think the experience of being a pc is a good way to learn quickly how the mind works and to recognize the stimulus-response mechanism.
Marildi : “As for the non-dual route, as I understand it so far, there are certain practices that produce a greater and greater awareness of one’s own conditioning (the ego) and the ability to not identify with it. Things aren’t “erased” but when something appears, the person neither pushes it away nor pulls it in (“attaches” to it). At that point, even when things appear in the person’s universe, they have no effect. This isn’t necessarily a fast process (although it apparently can be) but the goal and result is full awakening/enlightenment. I suppose some people might not agree that auditing is always able to handle specific issues and can do so relatively quickly, but what I observed in my 2 decades of experience in Scientology is that this happens the majority of the time. And I believe auditing could be used to boost non-dual practices by getting the major “attachments” out of the way. Plus, I think the experience of being a pc is a good way to learn quickly how the mind works and to recognize the stimulus-response mechanism.”
You are so smart and incredible balanced at everything , Marildi. I feel that I can love someone like you for the end of time. 🙂 I am sorry ; I feel poetically (may be actually) “drunk” tonight which is for me almost 4am in this endless and timeless bohemian night. So for being that special , I must post you this song . And as the song says, “You Are Not From Here” :
Thank you, Peter! Wonderful video.
Now go to sleep. 😀
Ok, Sweetie, I’ll go to sleep , but not w/out you in my dreams! Good night!
Kata : ” Thank you Marildi. Mooji doesn’t have a real job and as you know…”
I am curious as to how you define what to have a “real job” means , and how what Mooji does is not covered by such definition. Can you elaborate on that , please ? Also elaborate, please , on how was that comment related to the subject matter ? Why is it that an important issue to take into account ? Thanks in advance.
Comedy and snark TC! Too much serious is a serious problem in our world.
“Comedy and snark TC! Too much serious is a serious problem in our world.
Jjjjj . Sorry, I should have picked it up from the beginning coming from such an unserious (a quality I appreciate a lot) guy like you! 🙂
I tend to become just too damn literal with this English language! I even miss most jokes. LOL !
Hi William… I just read your post addressed to Geir… how one could increase the Will…
You read my post on Brain damage… I was on Morphine for 3 1/2 years, daily doze was by the 3rd year daily 270 mg which could kill a horse if taken in one dosage. At the beginning dosage started out 3 -5 times daily 1/2 mg..
I went OFF by my self because I knew it numbed the mind.. dulled my reality and it put me into a dead space. And I realized that if I wont go off I be in this vegetable state rest of my life.
First for a month I started to cut the dosage than one day I stopped it, there was no help from replacement drug, no help from doctors.
I did it alone, in my own apartment.
It was HELL, vomited, had the runs, the head ache was so violent I thought I go out of my mind from pain, the Skin itched -crawled so badly that I wanted to rip my own skin off. there were jerking of the muscles I could not sleep, rest, eat or drink , I walked and moaned and about 4 day in I finally could drink some water.. In one week I lost 12 pound and looked like hell and still felt I was in HELL. About in 10 days I started to feel better less headaches and the nausea was less and I could keep some food down, stayed home alone for 2 weeks before I left my apartment.
After off for 2 months I went back to the doctor but at first he did not believe me.. NOT FOR ONE SECOND that I went off by my self since he never ever heard anything like what I have done.
I felt that it has taken the body 6 months to get free of the effects because about than the strange headaches stopped and I finally felt vibrant alive and could think.
While I was in that DEAD SPACE I had immense amount of sessions on drugs, addiction, symptoms of what I felt also I confronted all the reason I believe I needed that drug or any other.. All the wants and needs- beliefs-considerations and agreement were confronted.
I went off 8years ago and I never craved the stuff, and I don’t take medication of any kind none what so ever, nothing from over the counter either.
Will POWER, what is? I can tell you that…
Best to you .Elizabeth.
The order is out of sequence to your “Yes”> So you did all those sessions yourself right?
Yes… In 76 a finished the OT levels and since than I am solo auditing..I rarely miss a day I have continued after OT7 because I felt-knew that there was much more to be confronted in order to understand self and the Universe.
At the present time I do lot of exploring on Standing waves.
You see William, Any BEING CAN ONLY HAVE JUST SO MUCH PERSONAL BEEF WITH SELF AND THE UNIVERSE… and after that crap is out of the way which were the limitation hindering the awareness comes the fun stuff to explore.. 🙂
Well dearie, I am one huge fan of your will to live. Girl you got GAME and I love that about you.
Coming back from that accident is huge. Believe me when I say I get that!
Will To Live??? You have missed the point dear boy!
It is the desire to know!.. To understand.!
To live?? what the hell is that?
Hey. I’m just a hick in Texas!
So, how many hours a week did you solo when dropping the pain killers? Was it with a meter or no?
The hours their amount is totally unimportant… takes long as the desired result attained..
Meter or no meter that too is irrelevant
Sessions continue till the change.
Well thank you very much. So, it seems your processing is very results focused.
Tell me if I’m wrong, but it seem like you plow away until you get the result you want. If you don’t get it right away even with a big experience, you keep going.
Are there other times you need big will power and used your solo processing to unleash it?
The technology is powerful tool but yes plowing is needed simply because this Universe and our existence is long as the universe existed therefore our collected experiences were not done overnight, in one life time…
Yes I use the technology on everything I want to know -discover how it works or what I want to attain=ability or to bring about the change I desire to have.
Example: had immense amount of session on communication which include the levels of course verbal, sounds only, than signals, than with pictures-projecting, than with intention-telepathic communication.
Another example: I have been greatly interested in the Doing-ness of Looking-seeing with the instrument called ”eyes” I have eliminated confusion and come to understand how the ”looking” is working and in fact not really..
I have attained the ability to see Holographical..any time on any object..
I also have worked-had immense amount of researched hours-session on the so called” being exterior” being inside or being outside of the body or any item.. Of course I also had to confront what location is for the Entity.. Yes… I got the result what I want… 🙂
Same with the understanding the Standing Waves, how they effect us, how are they used, what effects they have on the planet and in general how they were used in other places.. Yes I plow till I find all the answers I have on the same Item. the Universe has no boundaries, therefore knowledge, to understand that to is open… A question is needed. and bingo! 🙂
Well, thanks Elizabeth. It seems that you used what you got from LRH and at the same time, you fired all your teachers!
I don’t have any use for teachers or gurus.. By the way I only got from LRH and Scientology what I paid for, what I gained by using the tool that is my achievement.
Sorry for causing confusion, to me on Entity is: without the body.
But not a being… because in my reality long as someone is a BEING that means they associate self with matter. To me on Entity is Infinite, and no matter has the shelf life last for infinite.
Thanks Elizabeth. I know that if I could run a movie in my head of the experiences you have had, I would never go see a film again.
🙂 Long movie it would be… and to you it might seem very boring at times… William, I live stay with the body in order to have sessions-realizations. Each day is on adventure and these adventures are no not fantasy… daydreams.. You see even these considerations that they were jus hallucinations had to be confronted in order for me to find out what I was experiencing.
Well, you have inspired me dearie. My mindscape aint got shit on yours.
On average, how many hours a day to you run sessions?
HEHEHEHE … average 8-10.. but time is irrelevant.. I don’t have reality, feeling about it.. time having it is a consideration.. but it don’t exist..it is intangible.
I am truly having fun to me realizations are so incredible because I realizations are totally independent …they are not thoughts…They just there..
I have a friend lives-the body lives in New York and he to is in session every day. We talk on the phone about once a month… and because we both do the same and want to do the same and we have no other desire but to Know understand self…therefore others that is what we do… and want to continue till the body expires.
We have learned from our exchange of communication that our realities are incredible different…yet we both use unaltered technology. We exchange some recalls but we also allow each other to have that reality without the desire need or want to change each others beliefs.
William… what could be more fun than to find out for self how the universe was created… believed to become what is?
All the ancient questions which never gotten answered but become forgotten.. now are the cognitions!
If I could share my realities with others that would be a joyous occasion but I know that will never happen… I am not here to teach. Hehehe I cant tell others which way to go when my self walk blindly.. 🙂
By the way William, I haven’t used e-meter for many years.. Since we are in the Universe which is nothing more than simple energy… after many session one sure can feel, recognize energy mass when experiencing their vibrations.
The considerations are sitting on these masses of energy… we have labeled these masses..we have given them names: This is love… hehehe this is hate, this is sweet and this is bullshit! 🙂
By now I have become on expert recognizing these masses, what is their shape, color, how dense it is.. etc..
Eliz: “I live stay with the body in order to have sessions-realizations.”
That’s probably why people pick up another body if they did not go free in the one they had. I know that at least some sages say the body has the purpose of giving the true self the opportunity to see its own “face.”
Marildi… One can go free in one lifetime…but what freedom means to one is not likely the same for the other person.
When after many realizations one can ”see-perceive ” the body which was believed it existed for self, that it is in reality nothing more than a puff of hot moist air in the freezer well than for that Entity=me was freedom attained? achieved? freedom too is a consideration, same as a solution…soon as we have a solution for a problem we just gained a new problem.. Well.. freedom what is, is the same.
Eliz, the definition of freedom that I resonate with is this one: No longer identifies with the conditioned mind (the ego), which includes not only all the attitudes, emotions, sensations, and pains (the AESP of Dianetics), but also any and all considerations (beliefs) accumulated over the whole time track. I know that you have personally come to realize the significance of “mere” considerations on your own. I have only learned it from you and others, but when I look at it, I see that it’s true.
Right you are… freedom is stepping of all that shit the content of the Mind.. hehehe but that is only the freedom from one clump of reality. hehehe.. when that is done well I have found self sitting in a different dump.
Interesting! But doesn’t that “different dump” also contain one’s own considerations? Otherwise, I don’t see how it would affect the person.
here I am just a babe in arms… The reality is so different… and I believe I interpret their intention and therefore I get a understanding. which is in the language I know.
These communication cycles last only on instant.. there is no time span.
Oh, wow. Got it. Then, the word “considerations” doesn’t quite say it, because it doesn’t necessarily communicate intentions/goals/postulates. I think this is what implant GPMs and actual GPMs are all about.
This is also the reason that write-up I told you about was so intriguing to me – the one written by a former Scientologist who continued research on the tech and wrote under the name “Ouran.” I’ll post the link here too in case anyone is interested.
Ouran listed out what he found to be the basic considerations and goals of all beings, starting back at the beginning of the universe. Near the bottom of the article is a list numbered 1 to 10 of pairs of dualities and goals that are being dramatized by individuals, including spiritual leaders. Ouran also gives some processes to audit them. http://www.censorthis.com/ouran/PGprocesses.html
Marildi.. intentions/goals/ postulates are just simple considerations. and TRUE Intention is not what one would be saying ”I intend to etc…” True intention are not made up from thoughts. don’t have concepts and their vibration is so light and for this reason telepathic communication is ignored. not understood-comprehended because the intention don’t have location and the receiver don’t realize that their though-belief was received through intention. intention is a very tricky subject on which I AM TAKING ”LESSONS” AT THE MOMENT! 🙂
To assume that one person can find the realities of all other beings is beyond me. That takes huge EGO… to assume such.
E., I believe the word “concept” is generally used to describe what is being communicated in telepathy. You are right that a concept isn’t words, such as “I intend to…” Rather, it is defined by LRH as “a high wave thought, above perception or reason or single incidents.” In Upper Indoc TRs 6-9, students drill placing an intention in an object and then a person (the coach), with words at first and then without words.
“To assume that one person can find the realities of all other beings is beyond me. That takes huge EGO… to assume such.”
I don’t know about that because Ouran said he found some of the very same dichotomies that are on OT II, which LRH had discovered in his own research. And OT II is a level I’ve never heard or read any complaints about – only huge wins. There probably are considerations that are basic to everybody who has taken part in this universe.
OK… they are the basics to humans. I buy that.. But that cluster only exist on planet earth. And what are human beliefs in the first place? I all ready expressed my views on that in my email to you.
Yes, I loved how you described humans as one big cluster. 😀
And you gave me a reality on the fact that there exist different beings in this universe – some who are much higher on the tone scale.
M….on concept “Rather, it is defined by LRH as “a high wave thought, above perception or reason or single incidents.”
Now that is above my head… truly, how would I know what LRH said about what is concept means? I just go for the dictionary stuff.
Here is where the dog is buried… that means there is a ”smell” about his statement: If some one would perceive that that high wave than that IT COULD NOT BE ABOVE PERCEPTION! Than it would not be…period, sorry that statement is just not comprehendible for me.
if you care to point out what I missed well. please do so.:)
Okay. I think it means that the vibrations of concepts are smaller (higher) than the vibrations of perceptions or of reasoning/logic or of incidents (which are complete memory pictures in the mind). Regular English dictionaries basically define it as an idea, and an idea is basically defined as a thought; they don’t say what the “substance” of either of these is – as they don’t know. LRH does – that’s why I quoted his definition.
“If some one would perceive that that high wave than that IT COULD NOT BE ABOVE PERCEPTION!”
I think in this context, the word “perception” refers to the recordings of such things as sights and sounds in an incident. These are body perceptions, whereas the perception of a thought is done by the being – as in telepathy.
Marildi… the body-the brain produces constant vibration and these vibrations are in need to have sessions-stimulations. This I have difficulty to explain and I wont try.
But this vibrations we cant take with us because when the body stops working the vibration too stops.
Marildi… the body-the brain produces constant vibration and these vibrations are in need to have sessions-stimulations. This I have difficulty to explain and I wont try.
But this vibrations we cant take with us because when the body stops working the vibration too stops.
I think that’s a great explanation!
No… not even the half of it. you see we need that vibration for holding what we learned that life.. this includes the tech.. when the vibrations stops the tech=example, languages, what ever we practiced vanish with that too. Please read my last article on the Veil of death= Standing Wave.. and that post will give a bit more reality why we cant take it with us.
I read your post on the Veil of Death – fantastic! But I wasn’t talking about all considerations and thoughts – only the ones that we have identified with, made part of our identity. That would be the ones we either resisted or clung to, as those are the ones with charge.
I got that… please what is the question?
I was referring to what you said about not taking what we learned with us. My idea is that we identify with some things, and those are the things that we do take with us because they “stick” to us and are part of us.
OH.. yes… the Infinite will keep every experience but to recall any of these incidents after being jammed into a new body well.. not easy.. and even if it is remembered seldom ack-ad . more likely dismissed as some illusion, fancy of the mind daydream etc. Just look around you, even those who know and practiced the auditing Tech… just how many doing what I am… I am not talking about on intensive here and there.
And when the infinite don’t have the connection to the body than that Infinite don’t need that learned stuff.
Marildi here is the reason I don’t look at tapes-videos from Gurus: Because reading others realities has nothing to do with discovering what self knows.
The path to understand self is not written by others.
I fully agree that “reading others’ realities has nothing to do with discovering what self knows.” Knowledge can only be a “finger pointing to the moon” – it requires looking for oneself to actually see the moon. One either sees the moon or finds out that the direction being pointed to was not valid. I believe knowledge can sometimes point in the right direction – otherwise, no one would learn anything from any body. And you and I and others would not be communicating to others whatever knowledge we have.
amen to that.
Elizabeth: “Of course I also had to confront what location is for the Entity.”
E., in the context of Scientology, the word “entity” usually refers to body entities, or body thetans. You use it to mean a spiritual being with or without a body. I think this is what is confusing katageek.
Thanks Marildi, To me on Entity is the Soul, spirit, OT, Life-force, ghostly what-ever… AWARNESS… By now I have read different definitions so by now I haven’t the clue which definition people go by.
YEs… to me the Entity is without the body. The infinite.
yourself You don’t believe that you are a hick … cover up- yes ..but I can see through that.
By the way why asking about the emeter? what that has to do with Will?
I’m just asking if you used it in dealing with the drug shit. I would like to know what techniques you used. What does a typical session look like?
I haven’t altered LRH’s Auditing Technology since to me it works on any level, on any problem on any reality-belief system… The sessions were run accordingly and they still do.
But what all these has to do with Will Power?
Because you said you quit opiate pain killers with nothing but guts and auditing. So I presumed the auditing helped you get the will power to kick them.
The elimination of negative.. which was believing that I needed that kind of help and the beliefs and believes-considerations were as-ised in sessions and by as-ising those solid believes I have freed will power… William Our own beliefs are our own barriers…we cant see, we cant become aware if what holds us is not removed.
Thanks Elizabeth. Glass WAY WAY up Sweetie. You are at cause of hand to mouth! And that is a big deal.
LRH didn’t even have that!
Hip Hip Hooray to YOU Elizabeth!
“Hip Hip Hooray!”
Thank you my dear… LRH haven’t spent his life in session as I have… I have done it by choice because the first time in session I went into past life and had cognition than I realized I have found what I been looking for and from that moment on nothing mattered- life as I known it till than was put on the back burner.
Even now that flame which was ignited by the first realization that I am not a body but on Infinite that flame still burning hehehe just much much much bigger.
Hunger for knowledge cannot be satisfied.
Thank you for your acknowledgements.
So were all those sessions solo?
after all have Will and I know how I have gained it back, and what it takes to gain it back. But I had to know first I haven’t had it. Or lost it..I had to discover what made to be on effect.
So … when you gave up the pills did you do it only on Solo Auditing?
YEs…I have eliminated in sessions all the reasons I believed I needed that drug… Why I believed it helped, What was good about it, how it helped, what would happen if not be taken ETC… Hundreds of different beliefs INDIVIDUALY were confronted in sessions.
Not Only mine what I believed but I also eliminated the agreements which I knew others made on the same subject..Because if I new of these agreements therefore they were mine to.
The subject of Drugs is a huge, mind boggling.
Thank you! Interesting. So it sounds like it was mostly entity work for you, but not the standard blowing off of BTs. It that right?
Kata; regarding what tech can improve Will. In a week or so, we will release the next OnePageBook called “Mental training – The core”. Wait for it 😉
And after that I plan to release another, “Free Will”.
Our water heater blew today. So I got to cancel my marketing client and sit at home all day. . .
So … yeah.
Guess I’ll wait. TODAY anyway!
Ok, my ambitions for the OnePageBook on Free Will is now raised – so you will have to wait weeks for the book to be released. FYI.
Here is My One Post Book!
Step 1: List the abilities where your body’s actions align with your will.
Step 2: List the abilities where your body’s actions sometimes align with your will.
Step 3: List the abilities where your body’s actions do not align with your will.
Step 4: Create a morality based on the abilities you CAN do with compensation strategies and Ulysses contracts for those abilities where you cannot so your morality circle is complete and honest.
Step 5: Pick ONE ability you want to raise from 3 to 1. Research success stories, read “The Power of Habit” set up Ulysses contracts, and record your successes and failures in a data stream.
Step 6: Once you have that ability managed, pick another.
Step 7: Continue until at cause of will over body in line with the laws of the Universe.
REGARDING WILL POWER DEPLETION:
Will power against desires is a limited resource. Tests have shown that resisting temptation on one area weakens one’s ability to resist temptation in another. EXAMPLE: If you are dealing with a jerk and are doing everything to keep from going off on him, and THEN face cake, your will power against the cake is weakened.
COMPENSATION STRATEGY: Be aware of your will depletion events in life and build social and environmental support around them. When a perfect storm hits, be compassionate to yourself and reboot your morality and support system.
BT’s how they come into the picture? please what ”Entity work” means to you explain since I haven’t the clue what is that could mean.
Okay. Entity work means:
1. Auditing BTs and Clusters per LRH.
2. Making Spiritual Buddies via Spiritual Rescue Technology http://www.spiritualrescuetechnology.com
3. Making Spiritual Team Mates as in Knowledgism.
4. Talking to Ghosts as in the Avatar Tech
5. Talking to Ghosts as in a Seance.
6. Talking to Spirits one may feel in a room.
7. Catching Ghosts like in Ghost Busters, but skillfully, no streams getting crossed!
8. Exorcising demons in the name of JESUS!
9. Praying to the Gods like the Greeks.
10. Summoning a Muse.
Right, modern day exorcism 😉
Yeah, that or …
11. Casting a spirit into a mud gollum.
12. Telepathically communicating with a person’s spirit, bypassing their reactive mind.
13. Sending a message to a ghost in the past or future.
14. BEING a ghost by virtue of leaving your body and going somewhere else.
and FINALLY …
15. Kicking all the angels on the head of a pin AND THEN DANCING LIKE A BOSS!
And LASTLY …
16. Using a magic 8 Ball while praying to a being.
17. Using a Ouija Board.
18. Giving a Quarter to a Sexy Stuffed Gypsy Dummy in a Fortune Telling Arcade Booth.
19. Reading Fortune Cookies after a prayer to a being to help you find the right one.
20. An old lady talking to a dead husband like he is still alive.
Okay. That’s it.
And then, and Only then… *drumroll* finally put down the cigs!
Or, in my case, fast food, Dunkin Donut’s Coffee and Chocolate Cadbury Mini Eggs!
Lucky for me, I never started the stuff that could really mess my life up!
Your consciousness figures that would be enough of a challenge for you. 😀
So you are saying my consciousness is calling me a SISSY? All I can handle is coffee, fast food and Cadbury Mini Eggs?
I’m not in the big leagues? I’m a minor league addict? A two-bit player?
I’m better than that consciousness! I can be a gambler! I can be a womanizer! I can snort coke! Have a little faith in me consciousness!
So was John McMaster’s (from all counts a very kind man) given too big a challenge from his consciousness? He died of cirrhosis of the liver. Captain Bill Robertson died from throat cancer from smoking.
Why would these greatly advanced Scientologist’s consciousness be so hard on them and give them challenges they couldn’t face?
Consciousness works in mysterious ways…
I appreciate the spirit of his message, but practically, I don’t think it will turn me instantly around.
HERE IS MY TAKE:
1. If you want a stronger will, hang around people with stronger wills.
2. Find activities that build the will you need for the things that require that will.
3. Realize will power is a limited resource in your brain and build compensation strategies accordingly.
4. Clarify your outputs so that you know how to keep the will you have focused on the things you want.
Right now. At this moment. I’m drinking Dunkin Donuts Coffee.
And I love it. It loves me.
It … NEEDS me …
My sweet, sweet precious!
Goodnights we say!
HEHEHE.. I use LRH’s auditing tech when I audit others. But Their presence don’t have much to do with my sessions.
Well, I can’t wait until Geir’s Free Will book. But I think Bob Newhart has a video already.
Bob Demonstrates the free will I want. But he seems to wash his hands a LOT in his life. Just call it a hunch.
I’ve shown this here before, but it is SO brilliant I watch it every three months or so or show it to somebody. I want to “Stop it” for any negative tendency or preference. Also I want to join “Create it!” and “fulfill it!” to “Stop It” do what LRH, Capt. Bill, John McMaster, and Quentin Hubbard COULDN’T DO!
Hense we get an act of will which consists of three phases: “Create It!” and then “Fulfill it!” and then “Stop it!”
The Good Doctor shows the last phase and the debugging program to the last phase.
Hopefully, after Geir’s book, I will be able to do the following with just my own body. I’m not interested in others reactions, just my own free will regarding my own body in real time:
1. Quit coffee and fast food for good by just “STOPPING IT!”
2. Change any preference I don’t want to any preference I do want. This will be great. I can choose to like foods I typically don’t just because I can change my preferences at will.
EXAMPLE: “Wait, all you have is COORS BEER? That’s SWILL compared to Guinness! Oh … wait a sec … I … I NOW … CHOOSE … TO LIKE COORS BETTER! I CRAVE IT MORE THAN I EVER CRAVED GUINNESS AND I REALLY DO!”
3. I will be able to control my emotions outside the influences of others. I can face a torturer and say, “You can’t break me” and be unbreakable emotionally. In fact, I’ll be the motivational speaker to other inmates about how they too can love torture in the moments of torture itself! I will use my free will powers for good!
4. I will be able to say, “I will get up at 4:00 every morning and do two hours of physical and mental exercises before my day begins” and do it perfectly even if I’m tired.
5. Whatever I say I am going to do with my body I do exactly THAT!
EXAMPLE: I could choose to get addicted to pain killers, put them down and never use them again just to piss off the rehab industry!
REAL FREE WILL IS AWESOME!
But in all seriousness, I’m deeply inspired by stories like that of Shackleton in Antartica and Captain Bly and his crew sailing back to England in a tiny boat.
And sadly, I aint no Shackleton. But …
“THUS DO I WILL IT! … THUS SHALL I WILL IT!” – Zarathustra
Marildi…. thanks for your take… but again I got stuck on ”Body perception.” now yes that is the reality when the INFINITE believes-identifies that he is MATTER he is a BODY as LRH believed he was otherwise if he would not be than he would not said that.
after one steps out of that belief to that Infinite the body is no more than a sack of unwanted potato.. Bodies feel nothing.. know nothin,. just ticking away as on old alarm clock on the end table until its set time runs out.
The Infinite places the sensations etc.. on the body and say: the body have this and that, well that is how I know it.
So I can say … “I will become an addict of pain killers and then set them down forever? ”
CREATE IT! PHASE: I get a whole bunch of pain killers and take them.
FULFILL IT! PHASE: I become addicted to pain killers.
STOP IT! PHASE: I put the pills down and never use them again. I accept my bodies reactions and desires and just say, “Don’t be a little bitch body, I’M THE THETAN HERE!”
And then I never take any more and can mock those who are addicts as “little bitches.”
THAT is what a spirit driving a body FUCKING LOOKS LIKE.
So why couldn’t LRH stop smoking and you could stop opiates Elizabeth?
Why are YOU better than LRH?
Cuz from my point of view, you are kicking not only LRH’s ass, but also the asses of many a puffing and/or drinking scieftologist: Capt. Bill, Marty Rathbun, Jim Logan, John McMasters, Ralph Hilton and plenty of other Scientologists that can’t seem to stop smoking.
What is your secret? YOU FUCKING STOPPED OPIATES!
What Scientologists have stopped smoking? Well, since I put a premium on a higher being FIRST BEING AT CAUSE OF HAND TO MOUTH, I have noticed it and remembered. …
Maria kicked the smoking habit. She used a book to do it.
The smoking hot and brilliant Anette quit!
So, what do these people have in common that these other slackers don’t?
Why can the others like you can “STOP” an addictive substance way more difficult than smoking, when the others cannot?
Sheesh, I went to COLLEGE? Let me rephrase that awfully worded question:
“Why can you, Maria and Anette “STOP” an addictive substance and the others cannot”
William….The whole thing is so simple… by simply eliminating the reasons I believed worked and I needed it for support.
Kicking ass now that is funny since I haven’t compared ”self” with any one and I just know I am not better or worst but different. We all are different from person to person.
But I like you to see a bit more. Bill Gates IQ is 145, mine was done at the same University In Seattle the result was: cant be measured it is that high.
Now, the result of that 8 hour test shows-proves I am different therefore I ”see” the Universe differently as others do and I have different abilities too.
Elimination of reasons work… I know LRH made immense amount mistakes but the Tech works and the unwanted believes can be as-ised, eliminated.
I don’t have a secret.. But the knowledge I have, and how I see -observe this Universe…well, dear William… I don’t talk about it.
William the above persons could have stopped their addictions if they too would have understood that the tech works but the digging-shoveling shit -elimination of the negative beliefs that takes time, dedication but most of all the desire to change!
BUT the above people are the top of the Scientology game. THEY are supposed to be the product they are selling. And the FIRST skill of a being being “at cause” is the ability to complete a cycle of action. So … sorry. No excuse.
Knowledgism was an attempt to rework the mistakes you mentioned above, but if you look at Alan Walter on YouTube, you will see a very morbidly obese human.
Not at cause of hand to mouth!
Regardless of “any” tech, if it’s leaders cannot manage their own bodies, habits and desires it fails, regardless of the big wins or cognitions one may have.
William…””” Regardless of “any” tech, if it’s leaders cannot manage their own bodies, habits and desires it fails, regardless of the big wins or cognitions one may have.””
Just because a car salesman is selling a car that do not mean he is a good driver!
In my belief just because some people gained knowledge how to be or to do something and that ability put them in position that do not means they are LEADERS..
Leadership has nothing to do with doing some activity and gotten to be known to others because they are doing that whatever.
Just because a person talks power, expresses big idea which sound so smart…well…words -concepts any one can learn and than stand up on that orange box ….but power is not in the words:True power is invisible-infinite and it is not in connection to activity.
please take a look of accomplishments and not what positions are gained by taking courses and talk is cheap. You can see that for your self… those persons they talk the talk but not walking the same path… So their words are just hot wind out of empty space and has the same value.
William don’t judge the Tech because you cant, you haven’t used it therefore you don’t know if it works or not.
One can of course judge if something works without having tried it oneself. One can for instance determine if fusion power works without having tried it oneself. One can judge if a certain method for quitting smoking works by pre statistics without oneself being a smoker. And one can judge the workability of the American poilitical system even without ever having visited the US. Etc.
Geir… as usual I speak for self and I know on the same subject there are many realities as readers.
My knowledge of the human activities which are outside of my space is limited.. I don’t read papers, have TV, or radio or sound system…. not even a calculator, or cell-phone. but this computer.
As you can see I do lead a very quiet life.
William… I am not scientologist, I don’t know those people, I never been on staff, and I don’t do politics.
I could not care less as I do… because I don’t care at all what those people do. the most connection I had to ex’s is in this blog… and the Italian.
I don’t need to preach or teach, show off what I have learned, and tell the world how it is!
I know where I am at and that is enough.
You stated last week that you use LRH’s tech only and solo audit around 10 hours a day.
And you do not consider yourself a Scieftologist.
And you don’t know the biggest names in Scientology’s history.
Steven Page (former lead singer for the Barenaked Ladies) just released an album which is really is a depiction of his fight with bipolar disorder.
Like any great artist, like Van Gogh, they turn their pain into healing for others.
My wife loves this artist, and while she played this album, I was deeply touched by this song. Not at first.
It took a few times and then I saw the layering of ideas AND the song together. The song works on several levels.
1. An artist trying to bring forth a song he can hear but not manifest.
2. A person trying to release their better self.
3. The human race trying to find it’s shared melody to sing to the Universe.
And he does it all with … just. one. note.
And Steven Page is not at cause of hand to mouth either. He is overweight and takes addictive substances.
Just like LRH.
And they both use the madness of the artist’s magic to point to that batshit we want to make into beauty.
“There’s a melody somewhere inside of me. I can hear it but can’t get it out of me. In my head it is soaring but when it comes out it is all the same … note.”
Thanks for singing Elizabeth!
You are a gentleman , Kata! 🙂
And a poet. ❤
Yes , a poet indeed! 🙂
William….. Your understanding-realization brought flood of tears.
Love is infinite… you always had mine and always will.
How am I ever going to get over my addiction to conversations? 😀
… 🙂 That I will tell you in private… 🙂
But you are one of my co-dependents along with the other regulars here. 😛 🙂
Marildi.. now I truly don’t get this ”co–dependents” I know the word but explain, how?
It was just a joke. As you know, a co-dependent is someone who “enables” a person’s addiction to something. So the point was that you (and others here) enable me with mine by taking part in conversations with me. Just kidding around with ya. 😉
Close your eyes and listen… Oblivion… it me you hear.
“Wow.” So cool, I can even say it upside down.
Or inside out
“owW”. Or lastly dumbfounded … “Mmo” …
Thank you all for you kind comments.
And … I drank coffee this morning.
LOL… you draaaaank coffeeeeeeee this morrrrrning… You Have? Wow! so have I… 🙂
Lavazza Italian product. Coffee Arabica.. I buy their gold packaged coffee.. pour boiling water over it.. and presto …it is not instant but ground.. heavenly aroma… I like it strong..
that heavenly music was inspired by my presence, please no miss understanding here, all I say it was inspired by my presence… how he have perceived me as on Infinite.
The coffee reference was to my love of Dunkin’ Donut’s coffee of which I am addicted! I have quit coffee several times and continue to return.
The point of me talking about my coffee is to let you know that I am not fully at cause of hand to mouth!
So, DON’T trust my teachings or cognitions.
Like so many others, I am currently lacking a basic self control regarding addictive substances, hence, I’m as “un-special” as all the people I have listed above. !
Hence I do not have a free will as powerful as Chuck Norris’ beard!
“Oblivion” requires a sexy Argentine tango.
yes… it has become that a music to dance- tango and the above is poor interpretation what a tango should be.
I know, 😀 But I thought it was a very entertaining interpretation. I couldn’t find a “serious” Argentine tango on youtube where the dancers actually showed much of a romantic connection! Except for these street dancers:
Marildi : “I know, But I thought it was a very entertaining interpretation . I couldn’t find a “serious” Argentine tango on youtube where the dancers actually showed much of a romantic connection! Except for these street dancers.”
Well, perhaps you needed this video, sweet romantic angel!
“Dreams the rich man of riches and fears, The fears that his riches breed; The poor man dreams of his need, And all his sorrows and tears; Dreams he that prospers with years, Dreams he that feigns and foregoes, Dreams he that rails on his foes; And in all the world, I see, Man dreams whatever he be, And his own dream no man knows.”
“What is life? a tale that is told; What is life? a frenzy extreme, A shadow of things that seem; And the greatest good is but small, That all life is a dream to all, And that dreams themselves are a dream.” [ From “La Vida es un Sueño” (“Life is a Dream”) play, Calderón De La Barca, closing of Act II, “Segismundo’s reflections” ]
Dream, Santiago, dream! All that life is, is a dream, and reality is but an hilarious and insidious illusion. Do not wake up, Santiago; stay asleep, sshhhh, stay asleep…….
Btw, that play is all about Free Will :
Nice one, Peter. Beautiful dancing – real pros. ❤
How interesting that this was from a play on the theme of "life is a dream" and also about free will – the two major topics on this thread.
My current thought about free will is this: When will is free, it is the will of Spirit. Otherwise, it's all just mechanics, pre-determined.
Now I'm off to dreamland. The dream within the dream. 🙂
Marildi : “Nice one, Peter. Beautiful dancing – real pros.❤ ”
Thanks! I am glad you liked it! ❤
Marildi : "How interesting that this was from a play on the theme of "life is a dream" and also about free will – the two major topics on this thread."
Yes, indeed! How suitable.
Marildi : "My current thought about free will is this: When will is free, it is the will of Spirit. Otherwise, it's all just mechanics, pre-deter mined."
Yes, indeed! The saving grace is, though, that the Spirit manifest itself even at the lowest level of awareness and thus, Free Will is always present – to varying degrees – in all stages of existence. Life correct itself. 😉
Marildi : "Now I'm off to dreamland. The dream within the dream.
Jjjjj, that was a good one, "The dream within the dream". 🙂 Sleep well, Shinning angel, and dream of a perfect Tango. 😉
Here is another one for you, Marildi :
And this next piece is the most beautiful Tango of all times; Carlos Gardel”s “Por Una Cabeza” (“For a Head”). This is only the musical piece as I couldn’t find any of its dance performance worth posting. Sorry, I am just too “snob” when it comes to dance performances. 🙂 But we can imagine and dance it in the “dream world”, can’t we? 😉
Nice! Twice! 🙂
This isn’t too bad – for actors:
Thanks, and actually no; they are not bad at all! Thanks for posting it. 🙂
Better? Let say I am very different…Very different, that is all. He was nod bad or not good… but just different from any other person. Judgment -evaluation of other Infinites doigness is purely personal and very human thing to do. Personally I believed in the Tech and if he would truly believed in the product what he was selling he would have done the same as I. But again, he might not see that smoking or taking drugs was wrong, or he should do something about it. Not likely he ever though that he will be judged by so many and so harshly.
I have done much more offensive harmful things on my Track… by knowing them I know I am not in the position to judge others for what they are doing.
But one of my major wins-realization was that considerations-thoughts-believes are equal in value… haven’t any value That the evaluation-judeing is adding the value.
So dear William, why I could stop because I did not believe I needed it or wanted it, or was any use to me.
I did not put the value on that shit that it is stronger than I am. I did not believe that I could not get off it…that though never entered.. Doubt was never there.
here is a little story, I just finished my first course which was Communication Course and I have signed up for HQS course. The reg. asked me when I was going to start and I said maybe Friday.
I was sitting at that time front of her desk.
She said: Please try to stand up… I stood up.
She thanked me, and she said: Try to sit down.. I set down.
She acknowledged than said again: Try to stand up. I did but by than I realized that I was not doing something right.
Than she said slowly: TRY TO SIT DOWN!!! and bingo!
I realized than that trying is not doing… From that they on the words-consideration: try, maybe, perhaps has vanished from my Universe.
I do or I don’t… but maybe?
Elizabeth, you didn’t put kids in chain lockers this lifetime. You. Are. Better.
Thank you dear William… this life I have been very very good LOL.. how about when I had the life of Attila the Hun? This is not on illusion.. mind you the history was written by the losers LOL.. the drama of playing the victim “YOU DID IT TO ME!” was heavy than as now. LOL.. Please feel sympathy because look how I suffered what other have done… WOW… Humans are not innocent. bunch. not for one second…
“I do or I don’t… but maybe?”
That is the baloney of Scientology in only 7 words. It is the most basic make wrong.
Chris quoting Elizabeth: “I do or I don’t… but maybe?”
Chris: “That is the baloney of Scientology in only 7 words. It is the most basic make wrong.”
Me: Where is that in Scientology? It was Yoda who said “Do or do not, there is no try.”
You probably don’t have a problem with it now, right? 😀
I believe those words are in use every day by those who speak English..
But how you understand them is your reality.
Elizabeth: “…but again I got stuck on ‘Body perception.’ now yes that is the reality when the INFINITE believes-identifies that he is MATTER he is a BODY as LRH believed he was otherwise if he would not be than he would not said that.”
Actually, LRH meant body perception the same way you do when you talk about seeing with the body’s eyes as compared to seeing as a spiritual being – the perceptions of each are very different. The perceptions of the eyes (or other sense organs) are heavier vibrations than the high vibrations of thoughts or concepts. That’s why LRH defined a concept as “a high wave thought, ABOVE perception.”
Btw, I like the word you use sometimes for a thetan – an “Infinite.” Nice. 🙂
Marildi… I do know what the body perception means.. I was funning..
Thanks for the ack on Infinite. I like it my self.
Marildi…Yoda said that? 🙂 I will sue him… how dare he have the same belief as me ? 🙂
🙂 Keep your sense of humor… since humor will help you to overcome disappointments. 🙂
Disappointments? I laugh at disappointments!
… wait …
That’s your point. Never mind.
Soon As I have posted that comment to you I knew it was wrong.. I have put negative consideration into your Universe. I do apologies for that. Was NOT OK!
As for disappointments I love them because that is a starting point to go from, to make it happen what I want. 🙂
What? You threw a negative consideration into MY universe? So it was YOU who broke my water heater and lost me two productive days waiting on plumbers and inspectors?
“Why I oughta ….”
Have a great day sweetie. My inspector has left and now I can too.
LOL Blame me ? The water Heater is not a responsible person…it caused the problem.. 🙂 lova ya kid! Be well.
Productive day… loss to is a consideration…Just think my dear.. you were among friends, had grand exchange of ideas.. you felt good.. I too have learned that you are heavily addicted hehehe coffee Coors … and junk food… my… my you have hit the bottom really hard !
Here is some of that “Science stuff” of a guy who has studied behavior change for thirty years.
He calls overcoming RAW WILLPOWER a false notion.
Well, he obviously is a SISSY.
Not a free will I WOULD WANT.
I want Chuck Norris Free Will!
But he has some valid points.
Let’s presume Free Will exists.
Okay? Good. Now, what would SELF-BASED FREE WILL DO?
I think IF it exists then it CHOOSES ACTIONS and MANIFESTS those actions in a dynamic world. In other words it makes a decision for action and/or a criteria for action and manifests those decisions and/or criteria AS CHOSEN.
EXAMPLE: “I choose to walk across the room and let nothing stop me from drinking a fresh brewed cup of Dunkin’ Donuts Coffee (IMPORTANT NOTE: This is NOT that espresso Duncin’ Donut’s CRAP you get in Europe! This is BREWED coffee yo!).
((I SUMMON MY WILL … THE EARTH SHAKES… THUNDER STRIKES … THE WATCH TOWER BELL TOLLS TONE 40!))
I … ARISE … and MANIFEST my choice!
My dog offers a little resistance, but was easily bypassed.
While drinking my coffee, certain of my mastery of my will power FOR MY ACTIONS in this world, I decide to show off and get addicted to Pain Killers, like Elizabeth Hamre once was, and like our Heroine, I will then put them down, suffer the withdrawal LIKE A BOSS and never have another one. And on top of that I will start smoking and put down the cigarettes as well!
((I SUMMON MY WILL … THE EARTH SHAKES… THUNDER STRIKES … THE WATCH TOWER BELL TOLLS TONE 40!… I GET ADDICTED TO HEROIN AND NICOTINE))
Ten Year Later …
I am selling hand jobs for cash for a Heroin fix and have black lungs, a leathery face, hepatitis and weigh 130 pounds begging for cash.
So … why am I such a pansy regarding manifesting my chosen actions?
Free will isn’t about RESULTS of actions, but rather the ACTIONS CHOSEN regardless of results.
Obviously, if Free Will exists, it must involve other circles. To be able to do what I chose in the second example, here is how it would have to go down.
1. I move to a desert Island.
2. I get addicted to Heroin and Nicotine.
3. My loved ones leave me a lifetime supply of Soylent (a complete liquid food) and leave me there with an internet connection so we can Skype and so my wife and I can have Skype sex.
4. I no longer smoke or use heroin for the rest of my life.
…. SO …
Do I really have free will over my actions if I just can’t “Elizabeth Hamre” my newly acquired addictions with my CHOSEN ACTIONS?
WHY do we reverse our CHOSEN ACTIONS with addictions or undue influence?
Is a free will as strong as Chuck Norris’ beard POSSIBLE? And why does no religion give people the self-administered tools to acquire it if it does?
The no-free-will karma of the universe is hilarious!
CLARIFICATION: “Free will isn’t about RESULTS of actions, but rather the ACTIONS CHOSEN regardless of results.”
Actions chosen are free will, not results. If I choose to get a cup of coffee and do all the actions to get it, I manifested free will.
If a lightning bolt knocks out my electricity and my coffee maker is now broken, my free will was not stymied as MY ACTIONS STAYED CONSISTENT even if the outcome didn’t.
I’m confident that our mighty Geir will deliver the “Secrets of Chuck Norris’ Beard!” But if Geir can’t do it, not even Chuck Norris can save our free will!
My guess is that our Mighty Norwegian will go with his “Potential Free Will” model and claim that my ability to get coffee is a “higher potential” free will than my ability to walk away from heroin and nicotine addiction (without being stranded alone on an island).
… BUT …
What we are really claiming here is the notion of a spirit DIRECTING a bodies free will actions!
If a spirit doesn’t directly manage the unflinching choices of one’s OWN HANDS, is a spirit actually in charge? Or is a “external force” or “materialist internal force” directing our hands against our chosen actions?
Why do hands told not to pick up and consume an addictive substance STILL DO SO? Why do they reach for married booty? Why do they throw dice when their owners swore to never gamble again?
Why is being at cause of hand to mouth such a HIGH LEVEL OF FREE WILL POTENTIAL? And since all religions seem to NOT deliver consistently such a high level of free will potential.
Where the FUCK do we get it?
Okay. Done. I now have to go hunt Chuck Norris down with a DollarShave-Club razor and make off with his beard.
I can only CHOOSE to go after Chuck’s beard.
But if he spin kicks me to oblivion (highly likely) then at least my actions reflected my will. . .
… WAIT … He’s HERE! His Chuck Norris powers knew my plans!
((THWAP! ZAP! ZOWIE! ))
Dear Readers of Geir’s Blog, this is Chuck Norris.
Katageek has received a warning kick. If he persists after my beard, he will not survive. Please tell him to grow his own and not be a sissy. – CN
“married booty” LOL!
And the rest! 😀
I had fast food today AGAINST my chosen actions. I also had coffee.
BUT I STILL CHOOSE A VEGAN LIFESTYLE!
As Chuck’s beard as my witness, I will never eat meaty junk food again!
Only ONE beard can beat Chuck’s…
THIS is what free will looks like …
William… LOL…. now that is on OT…. LRH should have seen this video. LOL.
Some I came up with:
They never say “Paper or Plastic” they just give him both.
His tall tales are the height of oompa loompas.
His illegitimate sons in the UK are knighted at birth.
His relationship status is “Singularity.”
Chuck Norris tells jokes about HIM.
When people ask “Ginger or Mary Ann?” he asks “Which time?”
To him “Impossible” is a four letter word. Really.
As he was telling the fishing story of the one that got away, the fish showed up.
When he went vegan, the animals revolved in despair.
Sorry. Typo: When he went vegan, the animals REVOLTED.
His shoe size is an imaginary number.
If his beard ever touches the beard of Chuck Norris’ the universe ends.
Compared to him, Nietzsche’s Superman is the Boy Wonder.
Bodybuilding got his permission to use the title “Mr. Universe.”
The one percent are protesting because he he is the 0.01%
When he does the double slit experiment, photons cheer him by doing “the wave” when he is looking.
When he sneezes people say “Bless Me!”
Stop!! NO MORE 🙂 I am sitting in total loss, since woman haven’t even come into the picture!! Poor Us… we are nothing but dust! I need to increase the solo sessions, or I remain dust! 🙂
She sings so well, sirens go to her to learn how to lure wayward sailers.
During her cycle, butterflies and birds treat her like Cinderella.
Her will is so strong, that free will costs twenty bucks.
When she breathes out CO2, the receiving plants become buddhas.
When she astral projects, she can lift ash trays with her mind.
If you give her lemons, she doesn’t make lemon aide. She hates lemon aide!
When she breaks a mans heart, cardiac surgeons are immediately called.
Her stockings never run. They strut.
Her hair is so stunning, deserts received rain.
Her pheromones have brought back the dead.
Her laugh is so hypnotic, national treaties have been made to keep it off the air.
When she does an angry hair flip, men commit seppuku.
Wikileaks traced down all her emails and deleted them.
Her astrological sign is from another universe.
Her IQ is so high, Marilyn Vos Savant asks HER.
Her face hasn’t launched a thousand ships … TODAY.
The Manhattan Project was named for HER home town.
The wind slows for the days she wears hats.
Her kung fu, is so legendary, it’s a legend.
She is so amazing Zeus is asking for a divorce.
When I say LOL, I mean LAUGH OUT LOUD ! Even some belly laughs!
In the whole series above, there were one or two I didn’t even get – and they still made me laugh! Just by how they “flowed.” Seriously, intellectual comedy is in demand – better write that book. 🙂
But there’s no money!
Books are notoriously an awful way to make a living!
So, I write for fun.
Yeah, I know how it goes with books. They’re almost literally a dime a dozen nowadays. But there are exceptions… 😉
Marildi, I gotta get my free will in gear and get stuff written. Thank you for your encouragement. It means a lot!
“Her editing skills are so legendary, commas pause even when they aren’t being read!”
You’ve heard of a dial-wide floating needle? The above gave me a dial-wide grin. 😀
“When she marks out passive voice, the sun actually shines brighter.”
I only mark out passive voice if it isn’t coming from free will. 😀
“Her deletion marks are so severe dictionaries think that she destroys words!”
“When she makes a paper bleed red, it actually bleeds just in case the red ink runs out and she’s not done.”
“When she turns a verb into a gerund, it needs to wear a dog cone to heal.”
Maybe you should do improv!
about Zeus that is only rumors… not one word is true! He will never leave me he is crazy about my coffee!
Great coffee can make a bad marriage good!
ohhhhh I feel much better now…::) thank you!
“She turns shit INTO shine-ola!”
With you, it would just be a matter of adding a little more shine to your gems.
Example: “Her face hasn’t launched a thousand ships … TODAY.”
Edit: “Her face hasn’t launched a thousand ships today…YET.” 🙂
But anyway, editing is what I’m supposed to be working on right now! I’ll check back later to see if you’ve come up with any more gems.
Oh, these are to show only the free will being in action! I’ve taken enough inches of Geir’s blog today!
My take on the “Ashtray Levitate! – Cigarrettes Stay Down!” problem is as follows:
IF one is born from determinism, their life will unfold with a pre-programmed delusion of free will and nothing will change except as has been determined. So one MAY quit smoking while being unable to pick up the ashtray.
… OR …
IF one is BATSHIT creating this reality, the free will choice is the EXISTING REALITY with the “Ashtray Levitate! – Cigarrettes Stay Down!” double failure ALSO built in BY THE CHOICE OF BATSHIT.
In such a case, the solution is the same but the determinism is CHOSEN as an experience worthy of having like one chooses a movie to watch.
… OR …
If we manifest free will instantly moment by moment, then we can choose to immediately become the Most Interesting Human in the World. So far, that’s not working for me.
I really like the third option, regardless whether it is an unchosen determinism, a chosen determinism or free will manifesting.
I would like to think Geir would have something new and workable on “being at cause of hand to mouth or hand to heroin syringe” but … I’m doubtful.
Would love to be wrong about that.
Here is ANOTHER compilation of the Most Interesting Man in the World. This one has the radio spots! The beginning of the video is missing from the other one and there are other video spots included. Fucking brilliant advertising.
about the levitation of the ashtray…. the answer can be found not by searching for the answer why we cant levitate that ashtray but why the ashtray MUST remain in that solid stable permanent position as it was placed there by the hand-body.
Newton’s answer don’t apply here.
I’m more concerned about the “Cigarettes Down” problem. I think to manifest free will against an addiction or unwanted habit, one must realize that the feeling of Free Will as an individual depends upon other factors.
1. You must set your intention.
2. You must engineer yourself to make it happen.
3. You must engineer your family’s help to make it happen.
4. You must engineer your social connections to help you make it happen.
5. You must engineer your environment to help you make it happen.
6. You must repeat and reinforce reinforcement the intention in these areas to make it happen.
THAT is how one manifests “Cigarettes Down” to the highest degree IMHO.
And sometimes, it STILL fails. Keep engineering.
Nothing to do with the example I have given?
the person will put that cigarette down permanently when will find-descover the answer WHY H/S PICKED IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE.
All those points rules of must rarely work and you know that.
“to manifest Free Will”… every intention has counter intention. as I written before when the person wants something but cant get it, cant have it, will not happen, cant make it go right: the reason for that are the opposite beliefs which were made earlier and most likely have been forgotten.
hehehe. I want to quit smoking! I want to smoke! Smoking is a dirty habit….smoking is relaxing.
cigarettes are expansive….. but so pleasurable! etc..etc..etc.. when the reasons for wanting-desiring-needing is confronted than that person will put that thing down what ever that thing may be.
That’s a “standard tech” answer Elizabeth. How come LRH …. C-O-U-L-D-N-T …. quit after numerous attempts per testimony of his messengers?
Did he not confront WHY he picked them up in the first place? Did he not confront the reasons?
Of COURSE he did.
And he failed.
So, I go with Engineering over Auditing.
You were not in his shoes… so don’t compare, judgment is used especially the negative to make ”the self” feel better, to feel superior. And that is a lousy reason for judgment.
THE FACT IS: WHEN ALL THE COUNTER INTENTIONS ARE CONFRONTED THAN THERE IS NO REASON REMAINING FOR THAT IDEA TO PERSIST.
My answers are not from knowing the STANDARD TECH BUT FROM EXPERIENCE!!. So your assumption is incorrect.
And likewise, it would be folly to dismiss the engineering approach, wouldn’t you think?
I never wanted to convince you of anything… not my intention.. but that seem is your assumption. go with your flow… by all means since you don’t have the choice on that.
You seem to assume he actually W-A-N-T-E-D to quit. Are you sure he did?
All we have are testimonies of some messengers who said he said so. So … no. It’s not a certainty.
Who said he wanted to quit?
Sheesh. I don’t remember the documentary I saw it in. It reported that messengers stated that he told them repeatedly that he tried to quit several times and couldn’t.
So, I have to take the claim back that he wanted to quit until I can source it.
Anyway, I’m looking for a needle in a haystack. And I’m down to the last pound of hay.
Is there ANY reliable religious dharma that give one control over one’s body in the face of unwanted desires?
Based on my “Failed Leaders Gallery” across a wide range of religions, I get a “FUCK NO.”
There is nothing that can give people immutable wills with regard to what their hands put into their bodies.
Occasionally, we get an Elizabeth Hamre who drops opiates in one try, but one success does not a reliable dharma make.
Elizabeth had a rich spiritual practice.
She had no other friends that I know of when had source to the opiate.
She didn’t know of any street dealers that I know of.
She isolated herself during recovery.
So maybe she just had good elements mixed together to pull it off.
Our bodies just don’t often obey our decrees:
Irrational fears STAY irrational even if one decides to not be afraid anymore.
We eat things at events we promise ourselves not to eat.
We don’t get up to exercise when we promise ourselves to.
If free will exists, it’s just a die roll. And some results are beyond our best rolled results.
K….”She had no other friends that I know of when had source to the opiate.””
I havent had friends??? is that on assumption.
The drug was prescribe by a specialist.
K….”So maybe she just had good elements mixed together to pull it off. “”
No.. Elizabeth used LRH’s auditing tech… and with that tool she accomplished what she wanted.
William you havent duplicated.
Kata : “If free will exists, it’s just a die roll. And some results are beyond our best rolled results.”
Then may be, just may be your “Batshit philosophy” is flawed. 🙂 If I were to tell you the story of recovery of my lovely niece, you wouldn’t believe it, dear Kata; few would. It is a story that even the “strongest” ones would cry about. From total hopelessness and failure (and death), to being on “top of the world” living a wonderful life. She is the very personification of Few Will itself. And like her, there are thousands if not millions in this planet alone.
Those stories are there for you – or for anybody else for that matter – to find out if only you apply enough Free Will to discover them, Kata. The choice is yours entirely, and it doesn’t belong to the world of probabilities or “chance” at all; it belongs to the world of P-O-T-E-N-T-I-A-L-S, which is not governed by the laws of chance. It is governed by the laws of self-discipline. It is very easy to hide behind the “incomprehensibility” of it all. That’s easy. The hard part to do is to honestly look at our own reflections, and talk to ourselves and ask ; “Who I really am?” , and “What do I REALLY want?”.
If free will exists, it’s just a die roll. And some results are beyond our best rolled re sults.
Error : In my previous reply/post, I wronly included Kata’s quote at the end of my post. It didn’t belong there.
and from that ”hard fact”’ that ”say so” =pure fiction-gossip … you have come to conclusion that the Tech don’t work. !!!!!!!!!!!!!
and for that reason You have become a Critic…hammering away on LRH.. oh well.. that said it all.
Back to the point you snarky Buddha you,
Free Will as a BASIC ability would be to have control over what one’s body does regarding its hands and mouth and sex organs.
If one cannot control those to their own standard, they don’t have it. And if they are at the top of their Dharma’s path and they STILL don’t have it.
Then that there dharma don’t work.
You are free to prove me wrong with a LRH smoking clinic you can start where you get 300 people to stop smoking with auditing with 100% success.
Sweetie, the orgs would BOOM with such success.
Remember, the tech ALWAYS works when properly applied.
Kata: “Free Will as a BASIC ability would be to have control over what one’s body does regarding its hands and mouth and sex organs. If one cannot control those to their own standard, they don’t have it.”
Me: Wrong. Faulty logic. The fact that a person can jump does not logically equate to him being able to jump 100 meters.
More to the point is the fact that a person can CHOOSE to jump as a self-determination choice.
Kat, looks like you have an MU on the meaning of free will. It has nothing to do with being cause over the physical universe or anything else. It just means that one has the option to choose from the available choices.
“Free Will as a BASIC COMPETENT ability would be to have control over what one’s body does regarding its hands and mouth and sex organs with things physically possible for that body. If one cannot control these things in line with their own moral choices based on that said ability, they don’t have a competent free will.”
Any lesser free will is just sissy stuff.
And sadly, I’m a sissy. For example, I just posted after I said I wouldn’t. I’ll try again to STFU until your book.
I think what you are calling “free will” is actually “will power.”
MARILDI: I think what you are calling “free will” is actually “will power.”
ME: Geir definition of free will choice: “By choice is meant the possibility of will being exercised.”
EXAMPLE 1: You can choose the blue pill or the red pill from Morpheus. You choose one and swallow it. YOU DIDN’T ACTUALLY CHOOSE TILL YOU SWALLOWED THE PILL. And we’ll say you chose successfully and will dance with me in Zion.
EXAMPLE 2: You choose to not eat cake at a party. You go and eat cake anyway. So YOU DID NOT ACTUALLY TRULY CHOOSE. In that case you lost your free will as you lost the ability to MAINTAIN your choice that your body was capable of making because you can handle your hands and mouth.
“Free Will” and “Will Power” are not separate. If one does have the power to maintain a choice, one has lost free will.
Look! I just did it again! I gave up my free will choice to not post anymore! So I didn’t ACTUALLY choose to not post anymore! I have LOST my free will choice.
Get it? I play a fool SOMETIMES for a reason.
And sometimes, I’m just a fool. But occasionally, I’m not stupid. I like those times.
KG: “You choose to not eat cake at a party. You go and eat cake anyway.”
You can’t mix the two. If your choosing to not eat cake was self-determined, then it was a free will choice, and free will exists. The fact that you may not have what it takes to stick to your choice is a whole different thing.
Your own mind is what almost always pushes you to not stick to your decision/choice/postulate. But the mind isn’t you – mind and the being/spirit are two different things.
This has to do with the whole purpose of auditing and such things as becoming free of the ego – because the mechanics of the mind (stimulus-response) is what overwhelms our self-determinism.
MARRIED: “The fact that you may not have what it takes to stick to your choice is a whole different thing.”
NOT IF A SPIRIT DIRECTS A BODY.
If a spirit is in charge. And a spirit decides. And it cannot manifest that intention…
IT DOES NOT HAVE FREE WILL OVER ITS BODY AND HAS NOT ACTUALLY CHOSEN. IT HAS FAILED TO CHOOSE.
MORPHIUS EXAMPLE: Successfully manifested free will.
CAKE EXAMPLE: Self-Failed manifested will, presuming nobody was trying to tempt you with cake with other than its presence at the event.
CAKE FORCED DOWN YOUR THROAT WITH A FEEDING TUBE: Overwhelm. You made the free will choice but another being forced cake down your mouth. You made a free will choice, directed your actions in such a manner and another option was substituted.
And that is exactly why I’m so hard on smoking ex-scientology execs. IF THE THETAN HEALS AND DIRECTS THE BODY, THEN A PERSON WHO IS ADVANCED SPIRITUALLY SHOULD BE IN CHARGE OF THEIR BODY REGARDING CAKE, CIGS AND ANY OTHER SUBSTANCES.
So where are all the self-determined people who live according to their choices?
The spirit healed bodies that have control over what they eat, sleep with, smoke, snort or inject?
If a person cannot control their own bodies choices, they have not learned the skill of free will from potential free will.
KG: “And that is exactly why I’m so hard on smoking ex-scientology execs. IF THE THETAN HEALS AND DIRECTS THE BODY, THEN A PERSON WHO IS ADVANCED SPIRITUALLY SHOULD BE IN CHARGE OF THEIR BODY REGARDING CAKE, CIGS AND ANY OTHER SUBSTANCES.”
That was my point: they may very well make free will choices, but they obviously are not advanced enough spiritually if the mind can still overwhelm their choice.
But you still need to quote the definition of free will that you are using. Tell me that before we continue, because I don’t get that we are talking about the same thing.
Socrates: “Define your terms.”
FREE WILL OF THE BODY: The ability of a spirit to choose an action and control the body’s actions around that choice. The stopping of another of said action against the will of the doer does not negate the choice, as they did not control the willer’s choices made with the body.
SPIRITUAL FREE WILL BODY FAILURE: When a person WILLS something in his/her body’s domain that is a safe and very achievable task, and his/her own desires override the neurology of body movement against that choice, then they don’t have a functional free will that can control crucial actions of their body and should NOT be followed as a spiritual example.
ONCE MORE: IS THERE A SPIRITUAL TECHNOLOGY THAT ACTUALLY DELIVERS FUNCTIONAL FREE WILL OVER A BODY?
One that works like the tech DOESN’T?
If not, materialism wins IMO.
And I don’t really fucking like that.
Does this idea of being cause over habits/addictions just a metaphor, or is it all you really want?
It’s no metaphor. It’s a criteria.
IF A SPIRIT RUNS A BODY WITH FREE WILL, IT SHOULD FUCKING RUN A BODY WITH FREE WILL.
I’m not talking about levitating ash trays. I’m talking about managing hands, mouth and private parts well and ethically.
The rapes of scieftologist girls on the Sea Org is horrifying. The abuse of Catholic Priests is criminal. And the behavior of Zen Masters with their female students is awful.
And if a spirit cannot control a body, then either the spiritual “tech” or mythology didn’t work OR it is all bullshit.
For me? BASIC COMPETENT FREE WILL is the management of one’s body to the values one ascribes to.
So … IF a person could make OVER some percentage of their choices actually manifest (let’s go with 50% for fun) of their choices manifest, then I would say they “have a functioning free will.”
If not, then they don’t. So, in Geir speak, I would say that in this model there is POTENTIAL free will and a FUNCTIONING free will.
Who decides what is functioning free will. Well, someone could CHOOSE THAT …
So a person can decide what % of actually manifested choices denotes “free will” for them of their potential free will manifesting into real choices.
If a person CANNOT MANIFEST IMPORTANT CHOICES, (unlike my joke about posting on this blog) that metric would be weighted differently.
ALCOHOLIC WHO CHOSE WITH GREAT INTENTION TO BE A GOOD FAMILY MAN: “I’m giving up the bottle.”
If he can’t, then he aint got free will in my book.
Free Will is a choice MANIFESTED. If you aint got that, you aint got it.
KG: “Free Will is a choice MANIFESTED.”
I challenge you to find that definition of free will anywhere.
But if you say “Willpower is a choice MANIFESTED,” that would be a good definition of willpower.
IMHO: A choice is no choice UNLESS it is in your power to manifest.
Okay, I see what you mean. Then let’s get busy and handle the barrier of mind – the only actual barrier, short of someone shoving the cake down your throat. 🙂
The mind is not the issue for me Marildi. It’s more of looking at this process across the religion world: “smoking , drinking disciple in – smoking, drinking disciple out”
Bottom Line: “If a free-will building religion is going to work the BASIC free will it should deliver is the ability for a being to choose and manifests what it eats, drinks, mates with, injects, snorts up a nose or inhales.
If it cannot deliver TO THE MASSES the basic ability of self control, it is IMHO …
Now. IF a religion COULD deliver a functioning free will regarding their body. What would it look like?
You said earlier: “If not, materialism wins IMO. And I don’t really fucking like that.”
Ah, but you sound like your interests are purely materialistic – to play a better body game. Right?
No. To have free will over my body and align my actions with my chosen ethics is my choice.
And I’m returning to Philosophy. That’s what it is all about really. A Philosopher’s task is to be the doctor to one’s own soul. Whatever that is … or isn’t.
I do pretty good. I’m loyal to my wife. I don’t steal. I’m a good parent. I do have my issues though with food and caffeine.
I would just like to see a tech or body of practices that actually made the majority of people better in the ways described here.
KG: I would just like to see a tech or body of practices that actually made the majority of people better in the ways described here.”
Okay, that’s fair. But realize that virtually all the traditions agree that what prevents such things as ethical behavior are the “demons” in one’s own mind. And handling these demons has been achieved by many, to one degree or another.
Personally, the state I would like to be in could even be thought of as playing a better game – with a lot of functional free will. It’s described succinctly in this audio, in just 5 minutes:
This next sentence may sound mean, and I’m sorry for that. I’m glad he had an epiphany.
… AND …
It’s an “epiphany talk” from a self-admitted fast eater with a big plate of seconds.
An epiphany is amazing, but I’m concerned about his eating habit. If he can’t stop bolting his food as he describes, I don’t care if he had an epiphany.
The Pythagoreans defined virtue the way I define competent free will. To me, they are the same.
Virtue (Competent Free Will) is composed of three elements:
1. The Actual Power to Do an Action/Choice.
2. The Proper Rational Thought on What Action Should be Done.
3. Doing that Choice With Deliberate Action.
THAT is competent free will to me – manifested.
Now people DO that and fuck up on step 3 on things that are in their physical power.
People blame original sin, engrams, spirits, trauma or whatever and have created a plethora of religions, each with mind-blowing experiences like the guy who rushed back for seconds in the video above.
SO, WHAT SPIRITUAL PRACTICE IS THE MOST LIKELY TO GIVE A SPIRIT A FUNCTIONING “JOY STICK” FOR ITS HUMAN BODY? Because for most, people move the joy stick to the left away from the cake and the body goes right to the cake!
One cannot PROVE a spirit doesn’t run a human body. AND if spirit can be rehabbed, one would expect a rehabbed soul to ACTUALLY RUN A BODY ACCORDING TO ITS CHOICES.
And if that doesn’t happen, such practices are worthless IMHO.
I just enjoyed my coffee addition again this morning! Damn it’s good.
No, I don’t think you’re being mean, but I do think you are looking through your own set of filters. One type of filter is education, and you’ve probably been educated that drinking coffee is bad, for example. But did you know that some studies show that people with blood type A can drink coffee in moderation and that it is actually beneficial for them? And don’t forget, a person who is awakened and liberated from compulsive tendencies would not be obsessive about drinking coffee.
Furthermore, I have no doubt that if Adyashanti discovered that eating fast was giving him a problem, he could and would stop doing so. That’s IF, because here again, bodies are different and can’t be evaluated from our own experience – or our filters.
Besides, I don’t think we can compare what he said about life having become incredibly joyful for him to his not having good eating habits – unless our views are coming from our own conscious or unconscious filters.
In this short video, Adya explains the reason for such things as an eventual mid-life crisis (how old are you, btw? 🙂 ) and why life is not ultimately satisfying, at least not in the end – unless one has awakened from the personal will. Bear in mind that what he means by personal will is the filtered type of will – as opposed to the will of inherent spirit, which operates in all beings who are free from their conditioned mind/ego and NATURALLY includes being ethical. Btw, note that even a spiritual quest can be based on ego values. Also note, that Adya is pretty healthy looking and not overweight, and seems pretty happy too. 😉
What you call a filter, I call criteria.
Criteria for a CLAIM. If a spiritually advanced person’s soul is running a body the body should obey. Pretty simple.
EXAMPLE FROM MY LIFE: “Jesus will change you from the INSIDE out.”
Nope. My friend in college who went psychotic didn’t get changed from the inside out, and he was full in on the “Jesus changing him from the inside out” gig.
Why is it so hard for us (including me) to admit that the spirit running a body fails IF it cannot RUN a body?
THIS IS WHAT IS REALLY SAID BY THE SCIENTOLOGY AND CHRISTIAN CLAIM OF DIVINE SELF CONTROL: “You will be at free will of your spirit over your body until you really want to use this ability, and then when it doesn’t work, it is your fault you scumbag. Here, read this seven volume set and get serious on your commitment to walk the walk …”
I quit. Good night Harry.
Haystack complete and still no needle. I’m sure Geir won’t have anything new in his book on this, and if he does, and it works, the Nobel prize he will earn will make him so famous, he won’t even answer my posts with his terse replies!
There is no dharma that empowers a spirit to run a body to the spirit’s moral standards THAT CAN BE RELIED UPON BY THE MASSES.
Nope. It aint out there yo.
And the only thing that might work that I can see is if a dharma free self wills itself free. What Nishijima calls a “the will to the truth.”
Fire the teachers. Just sit. Align your body to your morality. Enjoy.
“Just sit. Align your body to your morality.”
Great. But more accurately: Just sit. Your body will be aligned to true morality, one that is not preconceived.
How old am I? I’ll quote the most interesting man in the world.
“When he discovered the fountain of youth, he didn’t drink from it … because he wasn’t thirsty.”
Good correction. Add to what I wrote above: And keep your humor.
Sorry. Wrong video. It’s this one:
you need to leave the body out like it is not existing…… since Free Will has nothing to do with the body.
And sometimes what you call free will is actually full OT – cause over matter, energy, space, time and life (life here means theta/spirit in general).
Life is not the Infinite but on experience by the Infinite… and these experiences can be called life.
Yes, but that’s a different definition of life, as defined here:
“the experience of being alive – examples: What do you really want out of life? He believes in living life to the fullest. [=in living a very full and rich life] All this paperwork has made life much more difficult.”
In this context, the way LRH defined “life” was “a static” – which, as you say, is not finite but infinite. Nothing in the MEST universe is static. Only theta is static.
Marildi…. I will nor argue –or debate what LRH had so say about anything. Whatever that was, was his and not mine and I don’t live ..have reality based on his beliefs.
That’s good. But in this case, he was actually saying the same thing as you. Static (theta) is “still.” = no-motion. And nothing of MEST is static – it is in constant motion. MEST is finite; static is infinite.
Static and theta is not a same.
My dear Elizabeth, you need to keep in mind that when someone is quoting LRH, they are using his definitions. And that the only importance in the way a word is defined is that we understand what is being said.
Quote away, by all means… but my universe, what I know is not revolving around what LRH thought-believe in.
and I wonder when you going to realize what ever LRH believed in, the rules and regulations he established as Universal Truth are not necessarily universal but was only his and his group’s belief?
I don’t speak his language of reality why should I have to compare-adjust to the definitions he has established?
Snarky: has to be a slang… I could not find it in the dictionary.
William… I don’t have the desire, the need or want to prove that LRHs tech works..It works for me and I am satisfied.
By now I have learned that only the SELF has the power to change self’s reality-believes, so to convince others is a total waste of ones energy.
I am not on the mission to prove anything to any one.
Hehehe.. I have attained freedom from that reality and it is mighty liberating.
I would like to mention SEX…. I have a friend who I never met, lives in New York. He was heavy into sex, he knew he was addicted,.. he had countless hours of sessions that means thousands of hours and he totally kicked that hobbit. His addiction was big…huge.
I too have kicked that need, long before the body reached the age of 76.
I bet it has taken me 3 thousand hours on that addiction.
guess what, neither of us miss it.. in fact we both feel free.
Okay. Let me see if I can shaft my blog dopamine addiction. I will NOT post until Geir posts his new Free Will book.
I think that Free Will is a P-O-T-E-N-T-I-A-L actuality inherent in the Spirit. There are as many “barriers” for its application as there are beings in this world. O/Ws in the area apparently lacking Free Will (a cousin of “Self-discipline”), a Service Fac (a “Safe Solution”) in the area, false data on the area, M/Us on the area, low self-esteem and self-respect due to areas where one can’t withhold from, Evil Purps in the area, etc, etc, etc.
The odd thing is, though, that no matter what brought us in the end to actually APPLY Free Will to any area in our lives – meditation, auditing, non-dualism resulting in an spiritual awakening, re-engineering our lives, religion, “Having found ‘Jesus Christ’ “, “Having achieved ‘Nirvana’ “, “Batshit”, etc, etc, etc – no matter what, it was US in the end that made those changes happen S-O-L-E-L-Y through the act of D-E-C-I-D-I-N-G and thus, Free Will, by “obvious deduction”, was always P-R-E-S-E-N-T all along even if the APPEARANCES pointed to the contrary. Free Will is similar to electricity in that it frequently exist in POTENTIALS. It may flow, it may not, but it is ALWAYS there. Otherwise, all the beauty of existence; love, art in all its forms, and all those MAGNIFICENT qualities of Life would be hardly seen if ever seen at all.
So if Free Will is a potential is it akin to a RPG die roll?
I’m going to try to quit my addiction to the dopamine created by blog posting with my Amar free will.
My skill level is 5. The DR is 13.
((ROLLS 6 SIDED DIE))
It’s a 6!
It’s a 1.
Theta Clear: “The odd thing is, though, that no matter what brought us in the end to actually APPLY Free Will to any area in our lives…no matter what, it was US in the end that made those changes happen S-O-L-E-L-Y through the act of D-E-C-I-D-I-N-G and thus, Free Will, by ‘obvious deduction’, was always P-R-E-S-E-N-T all along…”…It may flow, it may not, but it is ALWAYS there. Otherwise, all the beauty of existence; love, art in all its forms, and all those MAGNIFICENT qualities of Life would be hardly seen if ever seen at all.”
Good post, Peter. I was going to disagree with what you said about actual application being SOLELY a matter of deciding. I had in mind to point out that a person can make a choice/decision of their own free will, but afterwards may not actually apply it. This is because they still have their own mind preventing its application by directing them to do otherwise.
In other words, as Elizabeth said earlier, they have their own counter-postulates that go into effect. BUT, as a matter of fact, this is STILL their own free will that is being applied by them because the counter-postulates were also made of their own free will. Looking at it from this bigger picture, I am in full agreement with what you wrote. And it’s a pretty interesting thing to contemplate. 🙂
Oohps, I had forgotten to reply to this one, sorry Marildi.
Marildi : “Good post, Peter.”
Thanks dear, most kind.
Marildi : “I was going to disagree with what you said about actual application being SOLELY a matter of deciding. I had in mind to point out that a person can make a choice/decision of their own free will, but afterwards may not actually apply it. This is because they still have their own mind preventing its application by directing them to do otherwise.”
If they made a “choice” but then didn’t apply it, then it follows, my shinning angel, that they actually never made that choice in the first place, as DECISION denote ACTIONS always. In fact, it could be said that they are synonyms as words. If one “decides” anything but then our “Ego(s)” or conditioned mind patterns “obstruct” the application of that “decision”, then it must follows that we “undecided” what we had “decided”., thus, it was also a manifestation of Free Will, which is not the same as “Will Power” as you tried to get Kata to understand. Free Will is still there POTENTIALLY existing always.
The individual felt the counter-efforts from the environment or from his own mind, and DECIDED to change his original decision. It was ALL his own doing, always. Now, some kind of therapy, meditation, education, Confront Drills, Reaching and Withdrawing from the area, 3rd dynamic pressure, awakenings, Ethics handling, etc, etc; makes the individual sufficiently strong to decide and to make his decision stick. But at the end, when all has been said and done – and no matter what helped him during the process of deciding – it was his OWN act of deciding that changed whatever needed to be changed/improved. So it all comes back to Free Will was always there potentially existing outside of time-space frameworks.
Marildi : “In other words, as Elizabeth said earlier, they have their own counter-postulates that go into effect. BUT, as a matter of fact, this is STILL their own free will that is being applied by them because the counter-postulates were also made of their own free will.”
EXACTLY so, Marildi; exactly so!
Marildi : “Looking at it from this bigger picture, I am in full agreement with what you wrote.”
I knew you would! 🙂
Marildi : “And it’s a pretty interesting thing to contemplate. 🙂
It is indeed, isn’t it!!!
Staying on the subject of Free Will, and specially on the topic of “Habits” that Kata was discussing with you, and vehemently so 🙂 ; I found this link today while reading an issue of the Ivy magazine that a great friend sent me today. It is incredible data indeed, that I am immediately putting into practice on a personal level situation. I found it extremely fascinating so I decided to post the link for you and others here to have. Enjoy.
Thanks for the link, Peter. The style of writing in that article is sort of rambling, but the ideas are deep. Isn’t it funny how we keep running into things that seem to negate personal will in favor of Divine Will? That’s the term used in the article and both Mooji and Adyashanti use it too. Sometimes they describe Divine Will as the will of impersonal spirit, as compared to personal will.
In the article, the idea of Free Will seems to apply to Divine Will rather than the personal will of the individual. And Divine Will is predestined – sort of like karma or the Tao. Here’s a quote:
“When harmony and joy accompany the way of evolving, you always do exactly what you should be doing and for no other reason except that it is what you feel like doing, even though everything that happens is what should be happening,
“Free Will allows personal choice to increase the joy, harmony and everything else you like. The alignment of spirit and Will will allow you to understand, how PREDESTINATION AND FREE WILL ARE THE SAME THING [emphasis is mine].
“Will needs to be allowed to evolve and recover for you all of its power to express the full gift of Spiritual presence on Earth.
“In the process of balancing, allow the self to experience whatever is attractive to it.”
Marildi : “Thanks for the link, Peter. The style of writing in that article is sort of rambling, but the ideas are deep.”
You are most welcome, Marildi. And yes, the style is “sort of rambling”. This might be because, first, there are just too many “clarifications” between brackets (which does not come from the author himself), and secondly, those articles are only excerpts from 8 books whose content was allegedly channeled by “God” through its writer, Ceanne Derohan. Of course, I am not necessarily buying this explanation of the “real” source of those books; but it does intrigue me a lot its many deep ideas as you said. One of them being a description of “God” as I had never seen before. In fact, this is a “God” that can really be understood by anyone.
My take on this is that this “God” that Ceanne “communicated” with, is really the “Universal Consciousness” we all are part of. Somehow, she “tapped” into it through resonance. I don’t agree with all she describes in her books, but many ideas are just fascinating and kind of novel.
Marildi : “Isn’t it funny how we keep running into things that seem to negate personal will in favor of Divine Will? That’s the term used in the article and both Mooji and Adyashanti use it too. Sometimes they describe Divine Will as the will of impersonal spirit, as compared to personal will.”
Marildi : “In the article, the idea of Free Will seems to apply to Divine Will rather than the personal will of the individual. And Divine Will is predestined – sort of like karma or the Tao.”
Actually, you might want to take another look at the article (remember, those are excerpts from the 8 books. You can click on others chapters), as I think that what Ceanne is trying to say is actually the opposite : Personal Free Will = Divine Will as well, which is the way I’ve always seen it, as opposed to Adya and Mooji’s views on it. Here are some quotes from the introduction to those books. It is long enough to illustrate the point clearly. I’ve eliminated the comments between brackets which are not from Ceanne. My own comments/clarifications are between brackets . The caps are mine to emphasize :
“The unconditional love of the Spirit for everything that exists has been understood on Earth for quite some time. This, in fact, has been called Divine Love. Now there is a need for another understanding on Earth: that of Divine Will.”
“Most people on Earth have made a separation between the Spirit and the Will. They have their own Will [their personal Will] was not acceptable; that to love the way God loves, they must eliminate their own feelings and opinions [their personal Will as defined by Ceanne] and do what they have imagined is the Will of God. An understanding is needed here: THE WILL OF GOD [Divine Consciousness/Divine Will ] IS NOT IN OPPOSITION TO THE WILL OF THE INDIVIDUAL.”
“Because of the separation that has been made in the consciousness of so many, the Will [personal Will ] has been excluded for a long time from participating in the evolvement of the Spirit. A definite lag exists on Earth between the evolvement of the Spirit and the evolvement of the individual Will. It is now time for each Spirit to recognize, accept and evolve this other part of itself. Each Spirit is part of the Divine Consciousness, AND EACH INDIVIDUAL WILL, IS PART OF THE DIVINE WILL.”
“Each person must take responsibility for his complete being, and not for only a part of it. The Will expresses Itself as feelings, emotions, receptivity, intuition and desire [yes, desires, in opposition to what non-dualism believes]. The Spirit must accept its own Will [personal Will ] and evolve it in a loving way rather than a punitive, non-accepting or unloving one [ self-denial, as I feel non-dualism sometimes falls into] ”
“God [This higher Universal Consciousness] has given each individual part of His Consciousness with which to be aware of himself [of God, of the higher Self], and part of His Will with which to experience himself [meaning that by experiencing Personal Will, one is also experiencing God’s (Divine Consciousness of the Spirit) Divine Will ].”
“Everyone now wishing to remain on Earth must accept the whole being and discontinue the denial of the part of the self that experiences the Earth.”
“Instead of denying your own Will [ personal Will ] in favor of someone else, or in favor of what you imagine the Divine Will to be, it is necessary now to realize that denial of the individual Will has been a misunderstanding which has resulted in a split in the consciousness of individuals on Earth: THE INDIVIDUAL WILL IS NOT SEPARATE FROM THE DIVINE WILL ANY MORE THAN THE INDIVIDUAL SPIRIT IS SEPARATE FROM THE DIVINE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS. You need to realize this thoroughly and profoundly.”
Now, THAT’S my reality in all of this, Marildi; the one that REALLY, REALLY communicates to me intuitively, and which brings me a “persistent F/N” feeling. The “Missing Link” I had been looking for in non-dualism. You see, I can THINK with all of the above. If feels refreshingly real, and resonantly relaxing. 🙂
Btw, what I was referring you to, when I posted my link was this data :
“To begin with, illness can be cleared by learning to listen to what the Body is trying to say to you when you are ill. Understanding this message gives the Body a most needed feeling of acceptance instead of the feeling that it is you against your Body trying to defeat illness as though illness is some kind of sabotage by the Body.”
“With your full consciousness present, you can ask your Body what the message is and receive an answer about how to restore balance. Then do what Body asks and see the results. If complete healing is not reached, ask again and do again what Body asks until healing is reached. This process will evolve your ability to listen to your Body. No person needs to die from illness if Body has another option that is real for it. Body also has its own Free Will to decide if it can heal now or not. If you are seriously trying to align, Body will not die unless its only option for healing is rebirth. Even though some diseases indicate drastic imbalance, the idea of seeing certain diseases as fatal has been accepted by many only because the way of treating them has been to deny the message of the Body.”
“Instead of seeking to restore the balance, healing has attempted to suppress all symptoms. Then Body is incapable of recovering health.”
That what I mostly found very interesting in those excerpts from Ceanne’s books; the way she (actually “God”, according to her) looks at illness. This resonates with LRH’s data on how to become Cause in the first Dynamic, that he describes in the “Route to Infinity” lectures in the tapes “Therapy Section of Technique 80” part 1 and 2, and one that I am using with myself in PT to solve some issues.
Anyway, thanks for the comm, and for the synchronicity you bring to my universe. You are a blessed being indeed! 🙂
Peter, quoting from the article: “THE WILL OF GOD [Divine Consciousness/Divine Will] IS NOT IN OPPOSITION TO THE WILL OF THE INDIVIDUAL.”
I have no disagreement with that and I don’t think the non-dualist teachers do either. My understanding is that the “will of the individual” (using the above wording) does not mean the same thing as Adya’s term “personal will” – which is nothing more than the synthetic beliefs/feelings of conditioned ego.
In non-dualism, the “will of the individual” would be equivalent to Divine Will, according to the description of it in the videos. Reality is a Oneness (that’s what is meant by “non-dual”), and therefore each of us and all of us together ARE the Divine – the single thing that exists
In the article, it was expressed this way: “EACH INDIVIDUAL WILL IS PART OF THE DIVINE WILL.” This is another indication that “INDIVIDUAL will” does not have the same meaning as “personal will” – which is merely a creation of ego and not a truth as with Divine Will.
You also quoted this: “It is now time for each Spirit to recognize, accept and evolve this other part of itself. Each Spirit is part of the Divine Consciousness, AND EACH INDIVIDUAL WILL, IS PART OF THE DIVINE WILL.”
The above would be equivalent to the non-dualist teaching that we must “recognize” that we are “part of Divine Consciousness” and “part of divine will” (using all the same wording as in the above quote). The idea is to recognize that there is a Oneness – which is exactly what awakening/enlightenment means.
So, per my understanding, I think we do have the same reality, and synchronicity. 🙂
“Peter, quoting from the article: “THE WILL OF GOD [Divine Consciousness/Divine Will] IS NOT IN OPPOSITION TO THE WILL OF THE INDIVIDUAL.”
Marildi : “I have no disagreement with that and I don’t think the non-dua list teachers do either. My understanding is that the “will of the individual” (using the above wording) does not mean the same thing as Adya’s term “personal will” – which is nothing more th an the synthetic beliefs/feelings of conditioned ego.”
I watched the video in a new unit of time after your “suggestion” that I might have “M/Us” or “False Data” on the video (oooouch!!! , that hurt, but I love that kind of “pain”, jjjj ) , and realized that the article’s “Will of the Individual” and Adya’s “Personal Will” are in fact, opposite.
Marildi : “In non-dualism, the ‘will of the individual’ would be equivalent to Divine Will, according to the description of it in the videos. Reality is a Oneness (that’s what is meant by ‘non-dual’), and therefore each of us and all of us together ARE the Divine – the single thing that exists.”
You are one intuitive and very smart individual, dear Marildi; I must give you credit for that. You really have a knack for intuitiveness and perception of “differences and similarities”.
“In the article, it was expressed this way: ‘EACH INDIVIDUAL WILL IS PART OF THE DIVINE WILL.’ This is another indication that ‘INDIVIDUAL will’ does not have the same meaning as “personal will” – which is merely a creation of ego and not a truth as with Divine Will.”
Again, you are right about that. I confess that I had watched the videos in a sort of rush/glib way. Additionally, it seems that I was being “pulled down” by some Ego. The one who doesn’t want to let go of the “pleasures” of being human!!! LOL
Marildi : “You also quoted this: ‘It is now time for each Spirit to recognize, accept and evolve this other part of itself. Each Spirit is part of the Divine Consciousness, AND EACH INDIVIDUAL WILL, IS P ART OF THE DIVINE WILL’. ”
Marildi : “The above would be equivalent to the non-dualist teaching that we must “recognize” that we are ‘part of Divine Consciousness’ and ‘part of divine will’ (using all the same wording as in the above quote). The idea is to recognize that there is a Oneness – which is exactly what awakening/enlightenment means.”
You see what I meant by “you have a great knack for the perception of differences and similarities” ?
Marildi : “So, per my understanding, I think we do have the same reality, and synchronicity. 🙂 ”
Yes, we indeed have, my shinning angel!!! 🙂 ❤ I think that this deserves a video just for you, of a song that I just love, from what was one of the greatest romantic groups from the '50s : The Platters. Do you remember this ? :
Peter: “I confess that I had watched the videos in a sort of rush/glib way. Additionally, it seems that I was being ‘pulled down’ by some Ego. The one who doesn’t want to let go of the ‘pleasures’ of being human!!! LOL”
Well, here we go again with synchronicity. 🙂 Just today I was reading a particular chapter in Adyshanti’s book *The End of Your World* and already posted a paragraph from that chapter for katageek. Here’s another another excerpt – specially for you. It’s about truth. 😉
“SINCERITY IS THE KEY
“The most important thing is not that you try to convince anybody of the truth that you see. What is really important is that you are truthful with yourself. If you can be truthful with yourself, then you can be truthful with anybody. There is no real usefulness in becoming overly focused on being truthful with everybody else. Although that´s necessary, the place to start is with yourself: Can you be totally sincere with yourself? Can you go to that place that is beyond blame, beyond judgment, beyond should and shouldn´t? Can you go to that place that is so sincere you won´t shy away from any part of yourself that is still in conflict; you won´t use the perception of truth to hide from something that feels less than liberating?
“It is really a question of sincerity. As I said, this is not a self-improvement program. Once you discover the level of sincerity and honesty I am describing, you find that sincerity and honesty are manifestations of the absolute nature of being. To be this sincere with yourself may not be easy, initially. You may see things about yourself you don´t want to see. You may see the parts of yourself that stand in seemingly stark contrast to everything you have realized. Nonetheless, this is where awakening moves: toward and into that which is not awake. Sincerity is what allows this movement to happen, and it does happen if you are real with yourself.” — The End of Your World (Chapter 5 “Coming Completely out of Hiding”)
And of course I remember the Platters. Here’s one for you:
Peter (from before) : “I confess that I had watched the videos in a sort of rush/glib way. Additionally, it seems that I was being ‘pulled down ’ by some Ego. The one who doesn’t want to let go of the ‘pleasures’ of being human!!! LOL”
Marildi : “Well, here we go again with synchronicity. 🙂 Just today I was reading a particular chapter in Adyshanti’s book *The End of You r World* and already posted a paragraph from that chapter for katageek. Here’s another another excerpt – specially for you. I t’s about truth. 😉
Thanks, my very dear Marildi; that was a very lovely excerpt indeed! I truly felt identified with it; “Sincerity” is beauty and art in itself. 🙂 Btw, I took advantage from the link to that book that you posted for Kata. This time, I was able to open it. So I finally have the book, thank you!!! I’ll definitively be reading a bit of it each day.
Marildi : “And of course I remember the Platters. Here’s one for you: ”
Wow! What an incredible lovely video, thanks! I loved its lyric! Such a beautiful poetry indeed! And thanks for providing the subtitles as well; my ability to listen to English, specially in songs, is not nearly as good as my ability to read it. I appreciate the detail. ❤
That video made me dream a million dreams under 3 mins!
I'll be away for a while as duty calls, but I'll be seeing you in "dreamland" at "Twilight time". 🙂 @}—;—'—♥
Also, I did appreciate the data in the article about how to approach illness and the body, and I agree with that too. In the non-dualist view it would have to be that way, since all of manifested reality is part of the Oneness, and this would include the body, of course, which is a living entity.
What you said about LRH expressing the same idea makes sense too. I think he also saw “will” the same way it is explained in the article and in non-dualism. See what you think – here is an excerpt from 8-80, with my thoughts in brackets. Part of it is a quote intended by LRH just for katageek 🙂 :
“Self-determined thought [in the context, “self” means the thetan/spirit] expresses itself as will and consists of the making of postulates based on evaluations and conclusions. Will does not exist in time when it is at this level. Homo sapiens’ will [personal will of the ego], as Schopenhauer once remarked, is stubbornness [fixed ideas] taking the place of the intellect. Willpower in homo sapiens is most ordinarily demon-circuit power [the energy stored in beliefs and feelings].
“Free from the body and its ridges which themselves contain stimulus-response thought, the thetan can change his postulates by making new evaluations and conclusions, and can express his will [the will of the thetan/spirit] directly. It is very difficult for a thetan inside the head and confronted by the stimulus-response ridges of the body [ego-mind], to do other than obey these stimulus-response flows in agreement with the MEST universe [i.e. in agreement with the conditioning of the ego-mind].
“Ideas are invariably and inevitably senior to force and action – if those ideas stem from self-determined thought [Divine will or the will of Spirit].”
This part is for katageek:
“What is called willpower, then, could have two manifestations: the first would be actual self-determined thought; the second would be a result of an enforced or inhibited thought [ego conditioning]. When homo sapiens attempts to exercise his willpower, he normally brings into flow the ridges around the body [created by conditioning] and is nullified by them and is pressed into aberrated behavior.
The moral of the story is to handle the reactive mind, or call it shadows or the ego – whichever way you want to describe it. 😉
Marildi : “Also, I did appreciate the data in the article about how to approach illness and the body, and I agree with that too.”
That’s great that you do.
Marildi : “In the non-dualist view it would have to be that way, since all of manifested reality is part of the Oneness, and this would include the body, of course, which is a living entity.”
Yeah, that’s what many people forget (SPECIALLY me); that it IS a living entity that NEEDS to be communicated and stay in ARC with!
Marildi : “What you said about LRH expressing the same idea makes sense too. I think he also saw “will” the same way it is explained in the article and in non-dualism. See what you think – here is an excerpt from 8-80, with my thoughts in brackets. Part of it is a quote intended by LRH just for katageek 🙂 :
LRH : “Self-determined thought [in the context, “self” means the thetan/spirit] expresses itself as will and consists of the making of postulates based on evaluations and conclusions. Will does not exist in time when it is at this level. Homo sapiens’ will [personal will of the ego], as Schopenhauer once remarked, is stubbornness [fixed ideas] taking the place of the intellect. Willpower in homo sapiens is most ordinarily demon-circuit power [the energy stored in beliefs and feelings].”
Wow, that quote perfectly aligns with non-dualism’s principles!
LRH : “Free from the body and its ridges which themselves contain stimulus-response thought, the thetan can change his postulates by making new evaluations and conclusions, and can express his will [the will of the thetan/spirit] directly. It is very difficult for a thetan inside the head and confronted by the stimulus-response ridges of the body [ego-mind], to do other than obey these stimulus-response flows in agreement with the MEST universe [i.e. in agreement with the conditioning of the ego-mind].
You know – speaking of synchronicity – I was just thinking in the above data just 1-2 days ago, and had even planned to discuss it with you at some near future. I am referring to the relationship that “Exteriorization” has with regaining Free Will and our spirit-values. It seems to me that achieving a full spiritual awakening is VERY difficult w/out the act of a full experience of exteriorization with full perception, even if it is not a stable one.
In fact, I just cognited that what LRH had been trying to do all along with his many Exteriorization Procedures/routines (The SOPs) from the ’51-’55 period, was to achieve what could be interpreted as a Spiritual Awakening : the Theta Clear. If you read the descriptions of a Theta Clear in the PDC lectures (the only ones who fully describe the potentials/abilities/spirit-values of a Free Being), you will be able to realize that a Theta Clear if a fully awakened being in every sense of the world. Perhaps that’s the reason why the PDC has always been my favorite lectures, and that the concept of the “Theta Clear” always appealed to me so, so, so much.
That’s the “missing link” in non-dualism, and the reason why – from my perspective – there are so FEW really awakened beings in non-dualism. We may have thousands of participants, but most of them just seems confused and lost, or mostly aware of their spiritual nature at best. But guys like Adya or Mooji are very, very scarce indeed. I don’t even know how they got there w/out Exteriorization as Buddha’s awakening was mostly brought about by Exteriorization.
That’s why I have such a Tone-40 intention of being able to FINALLY solve the “Exteriorization Problem”. And I am not talking about those sort of unreal-mystical OBE experiences with this “transdimensional” feel to it. I am talking of an experience where the MEST universe can look as “real” as it look through our MEST’s eyes. Getting students of non-dualism to really get the point of what it is meant by the “Will of the spirit”, the “Spirit-values”, the “Silence and the Stillness”, the “Oneness”, etc; would be so, so, so much easy with just ONE clean exteriorization.
Even though that Adya and Mooji really seems like fully awakened beings, I don’t think that a total abandonment of the Ego(s) is really possible w/out being a fully Exteriorized being with Full perception and mobility. At least, that’s my take on all of this. I can’t explain it, as it is not something “intellectual” as such; it is more like an “intuition”, a “spiritual hunch”, you know.
LRH : “Ideas are invariably and inevitably senior to force and action –if those ideas stem from self-determined thought [Divine will o r the will of Spirit].”
Great quote indeed!
Marildi : “The moral of the story is to handle the reactive mind, or call it shadows or the ego – whichever way you want to describe it. 😉 ”
Which, by the way, has never ever been fully done with Scn and no other system/belief that I know of, even in non-dualism. Perhaps some “very special” cases here and there, sporadically so, but absolutely nothing more. Of course, the “Reactive Mind”, “Case”, the “OT Case”, “The Ego(s)”; are just different names for the SAME EXACT phenomena. And a “Clear”, “OT”, “Awaken Spirit”; are just different names to describe the SAME EXACT thing : a FULLY rehabilitated “I”.
My personal preference, which actually describes what is achieved, is “A Fully Awaken Spirit” (not a human being still inside his body, that’s why I didn’t use the word “individual”, as that word denote the compositive body + spirit).
Peter: “Which [handling the reactive mind, etc.] , by the way, has never ever been fully done with Scn and no other system/belief that I know of, even in non-dualism. Perhaps some ‘very special’ cases here and there, sporadically so, but absolutely nothing more. Of course, the ‘Reactive Mind’, ‘Case’, the ‘OT Case’, ‘The Ego(s)’ are just different names for the SAME EXACT phenomena. And a ‘Clear’, ‘OT, ‘Awakened Spirit’ are just different names to describe the SAME EXACT thing: a FULLY rehabilitated ‘I’.”
I’m reminded of the stories of monks or yogis who have meditated all day for years and have achieved great spiritual awareness and abilities – even the powers of siddhis, which includes “bi-location” or out-of-body (exteriorization). But when, they need to go out in public, to a store for supplies, for example, they lose their cool and blow up when they have to stand in line too long!
The solution, according to both Adya and Mooji, is to master the art of giving no energy to the conditioned thoughts and feelings (i.e. stimulus response ) of the ego. They both say one is never going to fully control the mind – not even the great sages have achieved that. So in that sense you are right. However, when reactive thoughts arise, the liberated ones simply see them as illusory and do not identify with them – and thus they have no effect.
So, rather than trying to be “cause over the mind,” we only need to gain the ability to neither grasp nor reject the conditioned beliefs and feelings that automatically arise. (The same principle is in Scientology, as regards aberration having a balance of forces.) This is what actually achieves a full awakening and freedom – the art of “allow it to be.”
I can’t remember which videos talk about this, but in this one Adja explains the basic principle:
Marildi : “I’m reminded of the stories of monks or yogis who have meditated all day for years and have achieved great spiritual awareness and abilities – even the powers of siddhis, which includes “ bi-location” or out-of-body (exteriorization). But when, they need to go out in public, to a store for supplies, for example, they lose their cool and blow up when they have to stand in line too long!”
Jjjj, they “lose their cool” cause they are alive, Marildi. And because they do not really care about experiencing ANY emotions such as impatience, anger, frustration, failure, etc, etc. It is very easy to confuse those emotions for the “Ego”, you know; too feel that ANY misemotion must, must, must be coming from Ego-values, and this just ISN’T the case at all.
Anyone having a pre-teen or teen daughter is just an ALIEN if he/she can keep his/her “coolness” and temper at all times. That’s what Kata was trying to say when he commented something like, “Let’s see how ‘cool’ these teachers can stay if they have a teenager daughter”. LOL I have a BEAUTIFUL princess going from pre-teens to the teens period, and she can literally DRIVE me crazy sometimes. It is sort of, “I’ve told you a thousand times not to blah, blah, blah; what word haven’t you understood, my princess ?” Or, “No, no, no, no; you DEFINITIVELY can not have a BF now” (11-12 years old!). Or “What the hell happened to the cookies?, you ate them all AGAIN!” Or “I’ve told you a MILLION times to tell me if you are going to move from a house (of a friend) to another place; you are SO grounded now, girl!”.
Because those reactions comes from being ALIVE (and from REALLY caring), even if they are not necessarily “high” emotions. Many manifestations of Life can be so EASILY confused and thought of as just “Ego manifestations”. That’s why I always look with lots of suspicion those manifesting this cool “undisturbed serenity”. And that’s EXACTLY what I perceive in many of the participants of the satsangs; a FALSE serenity; an avoidance of ALL human emotions. They just want to stay in this “undisturbed” state of mind of, “Let’s all hold our hands and be nice and friendly, and speak softly and quietly”. Well, to hell with that attitude! That ain’t for me.
I WANT to be upset when I feel upset; I want to cry when I feel like crying; I want to manifest frustration when I feel defeated by life; I want to dislike someone when he feels unpalatable to me. In short, I want to be ALIVE. Are those my Egos ? Perhaps yes, and perhaps no, but who really cares? There is ABOSOLUTELY nothing to be gained from running from Life AS it is, with all its ups and downs, with the full spectrum of emotions. I want them ALL.
My point is that, even though that Egos is a unavoidable reality and something to be fully understood and handled; not all the manifestations of apparent misemotions are ego-based. Not by a long, long ways, as any being w/out no Case whatsoever, move through the full spectrum of emotions. He is just free to do so, and doesn’t stay at any one fixedly. And that’s what I respected from LRH; he could get incredible upset and scream and curse, but at the same time show compassion and understanding, and being able to quickly return to his cool self. Isn’t that great indeed? Just as it happens to me in relation to my princess. And then she tells me, “I don’t like when you put that face that you put up”. I wonder what “face” is she referring to? LOL.
Marildi : “The solution, according to both Adya and Mooji, is to master the art of giving no energy to the conditioned thoughts and feelings (i.e. stimulus response ) of the ego.”
That sounds very logical and reasonable. In fact, LRH describes just that somewhere, but I just don’t remember where exactly now. Perhaps in 8-80, Tech-80 lectures, or in the PDC.
Marildi : “They both say one is never going to fully control the mind – not even the great sages have achieved that. So in that sense you are right.”
Got it. I guess one control anything by duplication, which happens after an understanding of the mechanics involved is achieved, which happens after we have learned the ability that Adya talks in the video you posted above: the ability to “allow everything to be as it is”.
That having been said, doing those things while still being “inside” our bodies, it is so, so, so much difficult, as how can we be talking (non-dualists) about spirit-values, the Stillness and the Silence, if we have never fully experienced, personally, a True Static ? Of course, we can always feel and contact the essence of what we are even in our present human condition. But form my perspective, the WHOLE idea is to transcend that, and that’s exactly what I am after: to transcend my human condition, and not just to improve it. Cause we are in a VERY unsuspected danger while we remain as humans. This, I feel it in my “spiritual bones”.
Marildi : “However, when reactive thoughts arise, the liberated ones simply see them as illusory and do not identify with them – and thus they have no effect.”
That’s not always the case, by a long, long ways, my dear friend. Just Google search what happened to many of those “liberated ones” after some years or a few decades.
Marildi : “So, rather than trying to be ’cause over the mind,’ we only need to gain the ability to neither grasp nor reject the conditioned beliefs and feelings that automatically arise.”
It basically the concept of “What you resist, persist”. In other words the “willingness to duplicate”. That which one can comfortably duplicate, doesn’t have any adverse effect in ourselves beyond the point of our OWN agreements with it.
Marildi : “(The same principle is in Scientology, as regards aberration having a balance of forces.) This is what actually achieves a full awakening and freedom – the art of “allow it to be.”
Yeah, or the art of “being willing to duplicate anything or anybody”.
Marildi : “I can’t remember which videos talk about this, but in this one Adja explains the basic principle:”
Thanks! I have just watched it again, as I had done so like 3-4 weeks ago. In fact, I now remember how much I loved that video, and how much truth it communicated to me. It even explains all the things I said about all the spectrum of emotions being part of Life, and not necessarily part of the Ego. And about not having our attention fixed on “not being misemotional”.
Thank you for your always wise and insightful posts, my dear angel. I’ll be away for a while, and won’t be able to post as frequent and as much in terms of content as I would like to. Duty calls. But we’ll meet in “dreamland”. 🙂
Peter: “Jjjj, they “lose their cool” cause they are alive, Marildi. And because they do not really care about experiencing ANY emotions such as impatience, anger, frustration, failure, etc, etc. It is very easy to confuse those emotions for the “Ego”, you know; to feel that ANY misemotion must, must, must be coming from Ego-values, and this just ISN’T the case at all.
I didn’t mean to say that “ANY misemotion” was coming from ego values. The point about the monks was that they “blew up” simply because they had to wait in line – which is an overreaction.
Peter: “Because those reactions comes from being ALIVE (and from REALLY caring), even if they are not necessarily “high” emotions. Many manifestations of Life can be so EASILY confused and thought of as just Ego manifestations. That’s why I always look with lots of suspicion on those manifesting this cool ‘undisturbed serenity’. And that’s EXACTLY what I perceive in many of the participants of the satsangs; a FALSE serenity; an avoidance of ALL human emotions.They just want to stay in this ‘undisturbed’ state of mind of, ‘Let’s all hold our hands and be nice and friendly, and speak softly and quietly’. Well, to hell with that attitude! That ain’t for me.”
Honestly, I don’t perceive them that way at all, at least not the majority of them. Perhaps one of us is bringing preconceptions (ego) to those videos when we watch them? Or maybe both of us are! 😉
Peter: “My point is that, even though Ego is an unavoidable reality and something to be fully understood and handled; not all the manifestations of apparent misemotions are ego-based. Not by a long, long ways, as any being w/out any Case whatsoever, move through the full spectrum of emotions. He is just free to do so, and doesn’t stay at any one fixedly.”
No disagreements with you on that – and I don’t think the nondualists do either.
Got it about you not having a lot of extra time right now for blog comments (I’m in pretty much the same boat), so I’ve picked out a very short video for you, just 3 minutes. It’s about both physical and emotional or psychological pain (misemotion). You’ll be happy to know that, according to Mooji, everybody feels pain (even the sage) and expresses it – but if the ego is involved, the pain will be exaggerated and there will be an overreaction. Here you go:
Peter: “Because those reactions comes from being ALIVE (and from REALLY caring), even if they are not necessarily “high” emotions. Many manifestations of Life can be so EASILY confused and thought of as just Ego manifestations. That’s why I always look with lots of suspicion on those manifesting this cool ‘undisturbed serenity’. And that’s EXACTLY what I perceive in many of the participants of the satsangs; a FALSE serenity; an avoidance of ALL human emotions. They just want to stay in this ‘undisturbed’ state of mind of, ‘Let’s all hold our hands and be nice and friendly, and speak softly and quietly’. Well, to hell with that attitude! That ain’t for me.”
Hi Peter…. how dare you be “”suspicious”” of those saintly gurus [ please note: I used small ‘’g’’ and that is not on error.]
After these saintly person speak sooooooo quietly… they mannerism is so gentle – calm- tranquil –composed so angelic and what they say has thrilled millions over the years!
Who are you to believe otherwise? False serenity? OH HOW INSULTING!! You will be going to hell in handbasket for that!
Well, they are trained for that, same as the members of any sport team do, they been practicing for years, please remember how far a pope has to climb to wear those white robes!
These wonderful gurus- business man are just selling a product: the most important part of that product is:
Presentation!! Presentation!! Presentation!!
The Look; how they will be perceived: how they look, what they wear: very important after all that is the wrapping because as we all know in sale the first 5 second counts, that first glimpse decide if the looker will bite or not, that is the wrapping.
Behavior: which is large part of the presentation of the product, that behavior has been practiced for years in fact copied from those who were sussefull selling the same crap and were effective in that mode of sales and these top salesman have written the manual: Be profitable business for self:
5 easy lessons: HOW TO BECOME SUSSEFULL GURU!
So the ‘’behaver’’ has been practiced for years: how to seat, the position of the body, and movements of the hands: body language is vital in the profession of sales!
IMPORTANT: the tone of voice, ohhhhh that is so vital…has to be slow gentle, caressing: the voice alone has to convey the message that the salesman has attained that heavenly level: of pure spirituality…and HE IS IT! another load of crap.
All the above preparation; presentation is for to cause the impression that the person really knows what it talking about.
After all, we do judge-evaluate and hold great importance to ‘’appearances’’.
And when all that is in place and the audience is impressed-totally satisfied by what they see: the next step for that salesman –guru is to bring out the big guns and dazzle: the words, the concepts to explain what it means to be enlightened…
But just think Peter, coca-cola is sold by billions of bottles, so are hamburgers etc..etc… etc.. and people buy because they were made to believe through PR that these product has value and they are good for them… so why not buy into shit what these low-lives sell: enlightenment?
There is a saying in sales: “every second sucker is born” and the gurus seem doing well in sales.
Hehehe… OH.. I totally missed out…I am massed up..I don’t know the right words-concepts therefore I will never reach enlightenment : I will blame that on my education: after all I have learned my first English words from Popeye the sailor man, Bugs bunny, Sylvester the pussy cat, and I am very fond of slang.. oh… to be a total loser… 🙂
Have great day!
Eliz, it’s true what you say about the “spiritual” mock-ups of some teachers – and students. There’s even a term for it – “spiritual EGO.” LOL
Adyashanti talks about this as being a pitfall that many seeking enlightenment fall into – where they use what they’ve learned to create a “better ego,” including such things as wearing “spiritual clothing.” This new-and-improved ego makes them and people who know them think they are superior – which is actually an ordinary ego-value.
Marildi… to me all gurus are sitting under the same hat.. regardless how their name tag is written or pronounced.
Peter: “Because those reactions comes from being ALIVE (and from REALLY caring), even if they are not necessarily “high” emotions. Many manifestations of Life can be so EASILY confused and thought of as just Ego manifestations. That’s why I always look with lots of suspicion on those manifesting this cool ‘undisturbed serenity’. And that’s EXACTLY what I perceive in many of the participants of the satsangs; a FALSE serenity; an avoidance of ALL human emotions. They just want to stay in this ‘undisturbed’ state of mind of, ‘Let’s all hold our hands and be nice and friendly, and speak softly and quietly’. Well, to hell with that attitude! That ain’t for me.”
Elizabeth : “Hi Peter…. how dare you be “”suspicious”” of those saintly gurus [ please note: I used small ‘’g’’ and that is not on error.]”
Hi Elizabeth! Yes, how dare I, ah? 🙂
“After these saintly person speak sooooooo quietly… they mannerism is so gentle – calm- tranquil –composed so angelic and what they say has thrilled millions over the years!”
You made me laugh, thank you! And then they close their eyes so frequently as in trying to contact the “inner self”, LOL! Oh girl, Marildi is going to want to pick up a bone with me after this for “Ego-agreeing” with you, you bad, bad girl! 🙂
Elizabeth : “Who are you to believe otherwise? False serenity? OH HOW INSULTING!! You will be going to hell in handbasket for that! ”
Oh dear, I almost spitted my coffee!
Elizabeth : “Well, they are trained for that, same as the members of any sport team do, they been practicing for years, please remember how far a pope has to climb to wear those white robes! ”
Yeah, and so he can have his feet washed and kissed!!!
Elizabeth : “These wonderful gurus- business man are just selling a product: the most important part of that product is: Presentation!! Presentation!! Presentation!! The Look; how they will be perceived: how they look, what they wear: very important after all that is the wrapping because as we all know in sale the first 5 second counts, that first glimpse decide if the looker will bite or not, that is the wrapping. Behavior: which is large part of the presentation of the product , that behavior has been practiced for years in fact copied from those who were successful selling the same crap and were effective in that mode of sales and these top salesman have written the manual: Be profitable business for self: 5 easy lessons: HOW TO BECOME SUSSEFULL GURU!”
Oh girl, you are going to get me into trouble if I speak. Difficult to resist “Ego-agreeing” with you, though. LOL
Elizabeth : “So the ‘’behaver’’ has been practiced for years: how to seat, the position of the body, and movements of the hands: body language is vital in the profession of sales!”
Yeah, and don’t forget the weird robes!!! And shaving one’s hair (or having long beards). In my case, the latter is easy as I am becoming bold with great speed, damn it!!! I used to have Travolta’s long hair in my 20s.
Elizabeth : “IMPORTANT: the tone of voice, ohhhhh that is so vital…has to be slow gentle, caressing: the voice alone has to convey the message that the salesman has attained that heavenly level: of pure spirituality…and HE IS IT! another load of crap.”
Oh boy, I almost have no coffe left to drink; I’ve spitted it all!!! You are being a bad, bad, bad girl Elizabeth. My ears are already ringing for what’s coming to me. This is a “Chronicle of a Death Foretold”. Dun-Dun-Duuuuun!!!
Elizabeth : “All the above preparation; presentation is for to cause the impression that the person really knows what it talking about. After all, we do judge-evaluate and hold great importance to ‘’appearances’’. And when all that is in place and the audience is impressed-totally satisfied by what they see: the next step for that salesman –guru is to bring out the big guns and dazzle: the words, the concepts to explain what it means to be enlightened… ”
Yeah, I totally got you. One thing that I loved about those ancient oriental teachers, is that they lived very austere lives, and their teachings were really free. No books to sale, no CDs to sell, but just you and him at a monastery right on top of a mountain . Of course, I have nothing against prosperity after having brought the damn concept of “Mendicancy” (as in Mendicant Friars) to this planet in the 13th century (My God, what on hell was I dramatizing! ). In these times of Capitalism, being w/out money is a crime indeed. But so many “teachers” these days with many books at Amazon, pretending to have the “correct” way or path, makes me uneasy sometimes. VERY uneasy!
Elizabeth : “But just think Peter, coca-cola is sold by billions of bottles, so are hamburgers etc..etc… etc.. and people buy because they were made to believe through PR that these product has value and they are good for them… so why not buy into shit what these low-lives sell: enlightenment? There is a saying in sales: “every second sucker is born” and the gurus seem doing well in sales.”
Yes, they sure are!!! And the sad thing is that people SELDOM get it; they just don’t get the teachings as evidenced by how many silly questions they keep asking at those satsangs : “My wife is complaining that I’ve become less passionate, what should I do? Is this normal? ” And they “wise” teacher replies, “That’s COMPLETELY ‘normal’ ; you are just finding your ‘true self’, and that’s hard for the ‘un-enlightened’ ones to understand”. And then I say, “Fuck the ‘inner Self”; just take your wife to bed, and make love to her all day and night, till she can no more”. That’s my solution/advice for complaints about “passionless”. LOL
“Hehehe… OH.. I totally missed out…I am massed up..I don’t know the right words-concepts therefore I will never reach enlightenment : I will blame that on my education: after all I have learned my first English words from Popeye the sailor man, Bugs bunny, Sylvester the pussy cat, and I am very fond of slang.. o h… to be a total loser… Have great day!”
You look enlightened enough to me, dear Elizabeth!!! And Humor – which you possess a lot – is the best part of enlightenment. Thanks for all the great laughs, for making me spit all my coffee, and for “Ego-agreeing” with me. It was worth all the “trouble” that you probably got me into already. :)))
To Peter.. thanks for the video… YESSSSSS that dramatic look… is the must!!!! and thank you again for reminding me of ” contacting the inner self””” my, inner self? what they are contacting too is starting with S… and just about that..
AND IF SOME ONE DONT LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN DIFFERENT, wellllll; that too shows where that person is, what values they go by, what is important to them.
LOL… if I would go by those evaluations, well, I would have to give self up and mold into those persons by agreement that they are better, more valuable than I.
forget that, will never happen!
Elizabeth : “To Peter.. thanks for the video… ”
You are most welcome!
Elizabeth : “YESSSSSS that dramatic look… is the must!!!! and thank you again for reminding me of ” contacting the inner self””” my, inner self? ”
You are welcome. And yes, it is very important to contact “OUR” own inner Self, and not anyone else’s in a misguided, “Let’s all be brothers who think alike” attitude. Fuck that. I just LOVE people, but I just LOVE my individualism as much. The two does not contradict each other AT ALL!
Elizabeth : “what they are contacting too is starting with S… ”
Oh, come on Elizabeth; not another coffee spit! LOL
Elizabeth : “…and just about that.. AND IF SOME ONE DONT LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN DIFFERENT, wellllll; that too shows where that person is, what values they go by, what is important to them. LOL… ”
Yeah, I know what you mean, thanks; but it is still sad, though. 😥
Elizabeth : “if I would go by those evaluations, well, I would have to give self up and mold into those persons by agreement that they are better, more valuable than I. forget that, will never happen!”
Keep up that attitude always, dear Elizabeth; I got to learn to love myself a little more. On that hat, I fail a lot. Thanks for the comm.
Ah, Peter, such beautiful sadness 😦 (razzing you a little 🙂 ) You’ve reminded me of something I meant to quote for you regarding exteriorization, which you were commenting on in a recent post. In the following excerpt from 8-80 regarding being out of the body, LRH coincidentally has something to say about “beautiful sadness” also:
“That most thetans, the moment they find themselves out of the body, desire to have nothing further to do with it, is an aberrated condition, just as it is an aberrated condition for a thetan to be fixed on having nothing to do with anything but bodies.
“One runs each point of the Sub-zero scale as a dichotomy, which is to say, Punishment–No-Punishment, Owning–Not-Owning, Controlling–Not-Controlling, Being–Not-Being. He runs these as concepts. He runs them most opportunely with the thetan outside the body, for the thetan then is not enturbulated by all the facsimiles and ridges which he finds in his vicinity.
“The technique is as follows:
“The preclear is asked to be or not be a short distance behind his head. From this position, he is then asked to feel a very little bit of sympathy for the body. (Feeling too much may make the preclear feel as though his head were being torn off.) The person is then asked to scan out the small action of moving out of the body and into the body, and scan it out while out of the body. The next steps are repetitions of these, but it will be found that the dichotomies and the beautiful sadness of each dichotomy must be run to bring the thetan up into a state of knowingness.” (Scn 8-80)
Best to you! 🙂
Thanks! To you as well, sweetie. 🙂
Peter, I had to look up what you meant by belonging–being the member of that order.
“The mendicant friars were bound by a vow of poverty and dedication to an ascetic way of life, renouncing property and traveling the world to preach. Their survival was dependent upon the good will of their listeners. It was this way of life that gave them their name, “mendicant,” derived from the Latin mendicare, meaning “to beg.”
Peter, more about gurus and I don’t want to point a finger toward the one who set under the tree and who’s name is in the book of ‘’Who is Who” because he was born as a prince.
BUT let’s say this guy was not born into the royal house but was born into the lowest sect and the job was: collecting shit and spreading it over the fields.
Do you believe anyone would have listened to him than and now still quote what he had to say 2600 years back?
His words had ‘’value’’ because after all he was a prince, regardless he was only wearing diaper BUT that ‘’princely thing’’ was the selling ticket.
Peter… it looks to me from the remarks you made in my posting that Marildies friendship to you depends on how you think, what you agree on and if you will not agree, happen to express different views than Marildi will withdraw her friendship.
I would call this A BIT OF BLACKMAIL: CONTROL: MY WAY OR YOU ARE OUT!.
Elizabeth : “Peter… it looks to me from the remarks you made in my posting that Marildies friendship to you depends on how you think, what you agree on and if you will not agree, happen to express different views than Marildi will withdraw her friendship. I would call this A BIT OF BLACKMAIL: CONTROL: MY WAY OR Y OU ARE OUT!.”
Thanks for the comm, dear Elizabeth. That’s the way it seems to be, though, I always prefer to give others the benefit of the doubt. Only the near future will validate or not that for me. Unfortunately, for us naive hearts, bad control often works in subtle and insidious ways. I am beginning to notice that the ones that dramatize their “Ego(s)” the most, are the “non-dualists” themselves.
Besides my OWN O/Ws, of course – which are just TOO many to count – my basic weak blind spot is to just open my heart to the unduly and unworthy. I always seems to see what I WANT to see in others, and not what IS REALLY there to begin with. It is so ironic and contradictory to talk about all that bull shit about the “Oneness” and “letting go of our ‘Ego-attitudes’, to then MISERABLY fail in the MOST basic of the Spirit-values : the ability/willingness to allow others to be, and to hold their own opinions about anything, w/out the undue influence and out-ARCness from others.
About just ANY fucking practice and “philosophy” from this mad house that we call Earth, is but a cultish approach to knowledge and existence. I am just tired of every fucking “teacher” and philosopher-want-to-be. Incredible and oddly enough, my OWN family didn’t even go to school, do not practice neither know about no god-damned stupid and silly philosophy, but are the kindest and more compassionate people that you will ever meet. They give me lessons of humility, philosophy, and “correct living” every time. Lessons much, much better than a 1,000s Adyas. Me, one of the biggest nerds of this country, who have self-taught himself every possible knowledge in existence, am but a spiritual illiterate individual when compared to them. Funny how much we can learn from the ones we least suspect, and how the most basic answers to life are so simple and obvious.
Thanks for the comm, I’ll reply to your other comment on Mendicant Friars tonight probably depending on my Solo-sessions running time. I always reply to all the comms directed to me, even if it takes me a few days to do so. I have two from you pending; I haven’t forgotten about it, ok sweetie ? Take care.
Peter, how you see the world and self have reached me, really has..much love!
“Peter, how you see the world and self have reached me, really has..much love!”
Thanks sweetie; most kind. Much love to you too.
Peter: “…the MOST basic of the Spirit-values: the ability/willingness to allow others to be, and to hold their own opinions about anything,”
Allow others to be? You mean by stating how much you disagree with their opinions?
Here’s how I see it at this point. Our conditioned minds were in ARC as long as they were seen by us to pretty much align with each other. When it was seen that they did not align, both of us (starting with you, btw) voiced disagreements – and the out-ARC began. Then a third conditioned mind joined sides with the conditioned mind which aligned with her own conditioning, and those two minds went into ARC – at least for the time being.
Let me say again, my purpose is to find truth – not to be in ARC with conditioning, whether my own or that of others. And right now I’m exploring nonduality. If you’ve changed your mind about sharing the journey with me, I can sincerely grant (“allow”) you that beingness.
M…..”Here’s how I see it at this point. Our conditioned minds were in ARC as long as they were seen by us to pretty much align with each other. When it was seen that they did not align, both of us (starting with you, btw) voiced disagreements – and the out-ARC began. Then a third conditioned mind joined sides with the conditioned mind which aligned with her own conditioning, and those two minds went into ARC – at least for the time being.””
Long as everything is so clear to you than you will have no problem finding the middle path that none-duality.
As I see it, none -duality never will be achieved long as two Infinite will view, express a viewpoint on any subject, but of course this reality is my understanding on that subject.
Agreements on any subject can not be called none-duality because there are underlying factors from the track and nicely hidden withholds which were not explored, motivators too exist : the reasons why the person agreed to accept that reality in the first place, this I call WH’s.
When one uses the ARC bit -technology to measure how friendship should be, if it’s there or not there than that condition never existed in the first place and the person who goes by that bit of information never really understood what friendship is.
True friendship is UNCONDITIONAL: in which expressing different believes don’t make any difference, because LOVE is the base to that friendship.
Peter (from before) : “…the MOST basic of the Spirit-values: the ability/willingness to allow others to be, and to hold their own opinions about anything,”
Marildi : “Allow others to be? You mean by stating how much you disagree with their opinions?”
Marildi, dear, I was expressing my disagreements with some very specific points from non-dualism; something to which I am very much entitled to, and something that you should not object to as a friend. I have posted several things here at this blog to which you have clearly expressed your disagreement against, and that has been totally okay with me. I can perfectly have your disagreements on just about anything. That’s what makes us unique as beings; our individualism which is not in opposition with Oneness.
Expressing our disagreements on anything, if done courteously and with manners, is not only “not wrong”, it is very healthy indeed. And if at any point I expressed my disagreements in a sort of upset way, it was never directed towards you as such, but to THAT specific teaching. Really, I am totally ok with whatever you choose to believe. That’s the real definition of a “friend”; someone who love us, support us for who we are, not for who they WANT us to be.
I never pretended (nor do now, nor ever will) that you leave what you consider to be your life’s path. How could I ever do that to you ? But I disagree with non-dualism, and it should be ok that I can tell you so, and to share my reasons with you w/out you having to get all buttoned and upset by it.
The same damn thing happened with fundamentalist Scientologists; this weird and misguided idea, that If we were not 100% in agreement with Scn/LRH, that we were then, “WRONG”. You see this every time at different blogs, specially at MS2; I mean, they are FUCKING NUTS!!!, for Christ sakes. I’ve seen you so many times trying to subtlety enforce Scn in others in the past, and now you are doing it with non-dualism in a very subtle way AGAIN! But you don’t see it apparently. Just DO non-dualism if it works for you; I can HAVE that, I do. Just don’t have as a prerequisite for ANY friendship – with me, or with whomever! – that the person agree and follow non-dualism or ANY other philosophy for that matter. Really, what kind of a non-dualist would you be if you do just that ? The fact is that you are NOT teaching by example, sweetie. Not all all, Marildi. You are enforcing ARC on the subject. And that’s wrong, sweetie, that’s wrong.
Marildi : “Here’s how I see it at this point. Our conditioned minds were in ARC as long as they were seen by us to pretty much align with each other. When it was seen that they did not align, both of us (starting with you, btw) voiced disagreements – and the out-ARC began.”
That’s just BULLSHIT, and you KNOW it. Stop insulting my perceptiveness for Chris sakes, and be willing to ACCEPT and confront your mistakes. I voiced my disagreement with the SUBJECT, not towards you practicing it, neither towards you as a person. I can have you as you are, but you can’t have me as I am apparently. I have TOO many situations going on in my life – which you are FULLY aware of – and I can’t just add you or anyone else’s to that list, that all by itself, as it is in PT, is overwhelming enough for me. I just can’t let you become a PTP for me.
And could you please stop evaluating others so much ? You were one of the best Scn Course Sups. You KNOW how vital it is to try to follow the Auditor’s Code, not only at any session, but in life as well. Every time that you analyze anyone behavior by telling what they should think about their reactions/attitudes, etc, and saying so much “this is ego, that is ego”; you are just evaluating for others. Just what right do you feel that you have to be communicating in such terms like, “Our conditioned minds blah, blah, blah…” , or “This and that reaction/attitude is Ego-based”, etc, etc , when DIRECTLY referring to anybody? You have NONE; none at all. You are starting to sound like a damn psychologist, for crying out loud!!! Just STOP doing that, PLEASE!!
Marildi : “Then a third conditioned mind joined sides with the conditioned mind which aligned with her own conditioning, and those two minds went into ARC – at least for the time being .”
Just more and more case evaluation from you, I am afraid. You were not like this back then when I met you at BIC. You would have thought twice before evaluating anyone, back then. Now it is so EASY for you to do, as easy as drinking a codfee. . What changed ? I know that you are NEVER EVER going to admit this, and hardly any woman would, but aren’t you just a bit jealous here ? I had told you that I just LOVE ALL women. That’s one of the reasons that I do not have a 2D with any; I just love them all! Women are the most fascinating creatures of ANY world. And If I were to have ANY, just the thought of admiring another physically/spiritually (finding her attractive) is a mental torment that you have NO idea whatsoever how totally overwhelming is that to me!
I begin to feel “dirty” inside and unfaithful. My solution to that ? Just love them all, admire them ALL, and have no 2D with no one at all. But there is always THAT one that have a special place in your mind and heart. 🙂
Marildi : “Let me say again, my purpose is to find truth – not to be in ARC with conditioning, whether my own or that of others.”
Then, my dear friend, I am afraid that you won’t meet that “Truth” that you are looking for, cause being in ARC with others is the most basic truth of ALL!!! And that origination of yours sounds so, so, so cold and passionless, that just by itself, makes you an opposite pole to who I really am, and what do I seek in life. You just got to confront that you and me are just TOO different on that aspect, which is a VERY vital one for any lasting friendship.
Marildi : “And right now I’m exploring nonduality. ”
That’s TOTALLY ok with me that you are!
Marildi : “If you’ve changed your mind about sharing the journey with me, I can sincerely grant (“allow”) you that beingness.”
Just stop acting that jealous already, would you ? My comm lines has ALWAYS been, and will ALWAYS be open for you. It is your decision whether you use them or not. But I am concerned with our friendship, as whenever you perceive disagreements, you just change so much, and turn into someone that I don’t really know. You pick up the RIGHT buttons to hurt, to introvert with. And I just can’t let you hurt me, sweetie; I just can’t. That ain’t right at all. I don’t deserve it, and you know I don’t. I’ve been treating you as a queen, as a princess. Why you chose to hurt me, escapes my understanding.
As a friend, and just wanting to help you with God as my witness, examinate these 2 items in your life. REALLY meditate on them, and see if you get any answers :
1. The phenomena of being against the concept, “We can always agree to disagree on anything”. Give that some thought. Also with this relationship, “Disagreeing does not necessarily equals NON-ARC and/or conflicts”.
2. The phenomena of having difficulties with saying “I was wrong”, or “I am sorry I did/said that”. What do you feel would happen if you started to say those things with more frequency ? Would that be painful ? Why ?
I promise you for the love of my daughter, that if you DO examine/ meditate a lot on those two points, and come up with sensible answers about it, your life would change in ways you can’t even imagine. And I would be VERY happy that it did.
I really, really, really need to be near my daughter. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing more important to me than that. She is THE most important thing in my life, and my #1 priority right now. So anything, any action, that doesn’t align with that goal, I just can do/have it; I just can’t. My priority now is to heal both physically and spiritually, as I feel almost dead as a being if compared to where I REALLY should be on the general scales. I am being the effect of life, and it just SHOULD NOT be that way at all.
I need to take off from my list, the things/beings that would only become distractions to my main goal : “A physically/spiritually FULLY rehabilitated being who IS near his daughter”. Anything that doesn’t align with that, must be off my list for the time being, until I’ve achieved that goal. To do otherwise can put my daughter in danger, and I can’t have that. I hope you understand.
Peter: “And could you please stop evaluating others so much?”
I was going to reply to your comment by simply saying, “Okay, let’s agree to disagree.” But I decided that it might benefit you for me to say a little more. Apparently, you don’t understand what evaluation is, because your comment was full of eval – of either of me personally or things I’ve said or my ideas and values. And a lot of it wasn’t even based on anything but dub-in on your part. Here are some examples of the eval:
“I’ve seen you so many times trying to subtlety enforce Scn in others in the past, and now you are doing it with non-dualism in a very subtle way AGAIN!”
“The fact is that you are NOT teaching by example.”
“You are enforcing ARC on the subject. And that’s wrong.”
(The next one was in response to the viewpoint I had expressed.) “That’s just BULLSHIT, and you KNOW it…Stop insulting my perceptiveness…”
“…be willing to ACCEPT and confront your mistakes.”
“You are starting to sound like a damn psychologist…”
“I know that you are NEVER EVER going to admit this…but aren’t you just a bit jealous here?” (This one was not only eval but total dub-in.)
“Then, my dear friend, I am afraid that you won’t meet that ‘Truth’ that you are looking for, cause being in ARC with others is the most basic truth of ALL!!!”
On that last one especially, what happened to “…the MOST basic of the Spirit-values: the ability/willingness to allow others to be, and to hold their own opinions about anything.”?
Anyway, I’m going to end off on this topic as it doesn’t belong here. If you have anything more to say, please put it in an email. Otherwise, let’s just agree to disagree. 🙂
Marildi : “Anyway, I’m going to end off on this topic as it doesn’t belong here. If you have any thing more to say, please put it in an email. Otherwise, let’s just agree to disagree.”
If I were to post the evaluations that you directed at me, just because I had voiced my disagreements with aspects of mon-dualism (w/out me having evaluated you in any way in those previous posts, specifically), they would fill the whole thread, including inferring that my gentlemanliness to you (or to others) was an “Ego-identity”. But I am not going to play your game. As to this topic “not belonging here”, you should have thought of that yourself before posting all those evaluations of me, simply because I had disagreed with you. I admit (something that you apparently are totally incapable of) that several evaluations came from me as well, but only after yours, not that I am justified in picking up a motivator to do the same neither. You could have e-mailed me instead of posting it here, because up to that point, I had not made absolutely no personal comment towards you. So if you chose to post it in the blog instead, now do not come complaining of any “privacy”.
So let’s just “agree to disagree” as I don’t really feel like writing to you. Besides, I am having a great bohemian night with my incredible music and a lovely wine; why should I spoil the fun now by “listening” to your justifications ? I don’t think so.
Why are you still in my heart and mind, is a total mistery to me as you are totally unworthy of it. And sorry about my “dub-in”. Silly me, isn’t it ?, thinking that I could be worthy of any jealousy from any woman.
Peter (from before) : “Jjjj, they “lose their cool” cause they are alive, Marildi. A nd because they do not really care about experiencing ANY emotions such as impatience, anger, frustration, failure, etc, etc. I t is very easy to confuse those emotions for the “Ego”, you know; to feel that ANY misemotion must, must, must be coming from Ego-values, and this just ISN’T the case at all.
Marildi : “I didn’t mean to say that “ANY misemotion” was coming from ego values. The point about the monks was that they “blew up” simply because they had to wait in line – which is an overreaction.”
I got it the first time. My point was EXACTLY just that; I don’t think that it is necessarily an “overreaction”. “Blow up” is defined as “To lose one’s temper”, and that is defined in turn as “To become angry at someone or something’ (Only Dictionary by Farlex). See Marildi, I don’t feel that losing one’s temper is necessarily a sign of ego- manifestations. You and me apparently have VERY different views as to what is considered “Ego” or not, and/or about what can be considered an “overreaction” or not.
I just don’t agree with the practice of being constantly “analyzing” one’s reactions to determine what is Ego and what is not. That’s SO, SO exhausting and introverting indeed! It can easily lead to self-listing reactions/manifestations, and just create an introverted/”too careful” being. You see participants of satsangs constantly asking “Is this attitude/emotion right or not ? “Should I do A or B ? And the “Teachers” ANSWERING those questions with the BEST of the intentions, but frequently in ways that make others just TOO dependent on an exterior evaluation. Gee, I can even teach Adya and Mooji one thing or two. Why should they be my “teachers” at all ? They can be my friends, though. And of course that I always learn things from friends. But my “teachers” ? I don’t think so. The more I follow their “teachings”, the more upset I get with some very specific points.
No dear, we are not seeing this from the same perspective, and that’s totally ok. We do not have to agree on everything to be friends. But my opinion on non-dualism is not your opinion on non-dualism. That should be clear enough. Similar ? DEFINITIVELY yes, in most of its principles.
Peter (from before) : “Because those reactions comes from being ALIVE (and from REALLY caring), even if they are not necessarily “high” emotions. Many manifestations of Life can be so EASILY confused and thought of as just Ego manifestations. That’s why I always look with lots of suspicion on those manifesting this cool ‘undisturbed serenity’. And that’s EXACTLY what I perceive in many of the participants of the satsangs; a FALSE serenity; an avoidance of ALL human emotions .They just want to stay in this ‘undisturbed’ state of mind of, ‘Let’s all hold our hands and be nice and friendly, and speak softly and quietly’. Well, to hell with that attitude! That ain’t for me.”
Marildi : “Honestly, I don’t perceive them that way at all, at least not the majority of them. Perhaps one of us is bringing preconceptions (ego) to those videos when we watch them? Or maybe both of us are!
Or may be, just may be I have a way of perceiving things in a theta level that you can’t understand. Would you stop to argue with anyone who tells you that your assertion that a wall is white is not true ? Obviously not, as your thought, “the wall is white”, is a certainty, a knowingness in you. Well Marildi, in that EXACT way I can perceive the emotions/thoughts-patterns of others in about 60-80% of the time. And I never ever assert anything that I do not have a 100% certainty on. Even if I have the slightest of the doubt, I would only say something like, “I think…” or “I feel….”. And my perceptions about the participants of the satsangs are not in the category of “I think…”. You may BELIEVE it is, but that’s just your opinion, and not necessarily an actuality. But that it IS a certainty in me, is more than enough as far as I am concerned. For me, of course, not for you or others.
Peter (from before) : “My point is that, even though Ego is an unavoidable reality and something to be fully understood and handled; not all the manifestations of apparent misemotions are ego-based. N ot by a long, long ways, as any being w/out any Case whatsoever, move through the full spectrum of emotions. He is just free to do so, and doesn’t stay at any one fixedly.”
Marildi : “No disagreements with you on that – and I don’t think the non-dualists do either.”
I am not so sure of that, my friend; not so sure at all. As I had said before, they tend to contradict themselves at different videos, specially Mooji, not so much Adya. I’ve seen so far more than 30-40 videos, and there are several contradictions in them. That does not make them “wrong” or “unwise; they ARE wise and truthful to a very large degree. But not an absolute truth in any way, shape or form. They contain false data as well, even if only in small amounts. But sometimes the false datum is BIG.
Marildi : “Got it about you not having a lot of extra time right now for blog comments (I’m in pretty much the same boat), so I’ve picked out a very short video for you, just 3 minutes. It’s about both physical and emotional or psychological pain (misemotion). You’ll be happy to know that, according to Mooji, everybody feels pain (even the sage) and expresses it – but if the ego is involved, the pain will be exaggerated and there will be an overreaction. Here you go: “
Yeah, I watched the video, thank you. And again found things in it I agree with, and others that I don’t such as this quote that happens at 2:27 in the video :
Mooji : “If I have a desire that something should go this way, and it is likely it will go that way, then there is disappointment and we say, “Life is so hard, why is life so tough?”, because you lived tough. You wanted it to be other than it is, then somehow pain will come, but life is not painful-it just is.”
You see Marildi, that kind of attitude can VERY EASILY lead others to become conformists about existence, taking away the “spirit of fight”, of REALLY striving for what you want, and actually ACTIVELY acting to chance those things that are going in the direction one does not wish it to go. But “frustration” can actually make someone to RAISE his/her necessity level, and say “That’s it, no more; mother fucker existence, you’ll bend to my wishes or else”.
I am sure that you’ll post another video now, where Mooji or Adya support my views above, even though they contradict each other at others videos on the SAME subject. My point is, my friend, that non-dualism, just as Scientology and so many other philosophies are/were, is not consistent within itself. That’s why I look at it – as I do with just about EVERYTHING else in life – with suspicion.
Just TOO much attention is given to analyzing the Ego, Marildi. And that’s misguided and even insidiously introverting, from my perspective. It can take away the spontaneity and naturalness of human interaction. It can become a robotic way of living. You still have not convinced me, and I don’t think you’ll ever will. Not on that one point of disagreement, and a few others here and there. But that’s totally ok. And by all means, post whatever other videos you want as I ALWAYS learn from them, regardless of some points of disagreement here and there. Because also in disagreement, one learns about life. Disagreements are just a natural part of existence, and a very healthy one, I may add!!!
Peter: “You see Marildi, that kind of attitude can VERY EASILY lead others to become conformists about existence, taking away the ‘spirit of fight’, of REALLY striving for what you want, and actually ACTIVELY acting to change those things that are going in the direction one does not wish it to go. But ‘frustration’ can actually make someone to RAISE his/her necessity level, and say ‘That’s it, no more; mother fucker existence, you’ll bend to my wishes or else’.”
Well, my friend, the above, especially the last line – “…mother fucker existence, you’ll bend to my wishes or else” – and pretty much everything else you wrote tells me that you certainly do not have a nondualist point of view. Not even with regard to its most basic principles.
Whether that’s because you don’t really understand the principles; or because your viewpoint is predetermined and compelled by your own pet beliefs, opinions and fond egoic images of yourself; or because your views are in fact wiser, as you apparently assert – obviously, it’s your choice to decide.
In any case, I’ve already said enough about my own understanding of nondualism to know that I’m not going to change how you see it – even two of the top nonduality teachers haven’t been able to do that.
I would agree with you that they don’t all have the same teachings on all points – but I think they do on the most basic ones. Those include the idea that the single absolute reality/truth is spirit and all other “truths” about life are relative to our conditioning – regardless of how real or true they may seem. And btw, I myself haven’t necessarily gone along with everything taught by any one of these teachers, or by all of them – other than the basic principles.
Regardless of anything, you obviously have the right to choose your own path, and I wish you well on whatever it evolves to be. I have confidence that things will turn out for the best – for all of us. It’s just a matter of when. 😉
Peter: (from before) : “You see Marildi, that kind of attitude can VERY EASILY lead others to become conformists about existence, taking away the ‘spirit of fight’, of REALLY striving for what you want, and actually ACTIVELY acting to change those things that are going in the direction one does not wish it to go. But ‘frustration’ can actually make someone to RAISE his/her necessity level, and say ‘That’s it, no more; mother fucker existence, you’ll bend to my wishes or else’.”
Marildi : “Well, my friend, the above, especially the last line – ‘…mother fucker existence, you’ll bend to my wishes or else’ – and pretty much everything else you wrote tells me that you certainly do not have a nondualist point of view. Not even with regard to its most basic principles.”
You know what, Marildi? I think that I’ll take that as a compliment. If having to be careful with all I say and how I say it, is non-dualism, then I rather be a dualist. If having to be CONSTANTLY analyzing my conduct/behavior to determine what is Ego-based and what is Self-based (with its resulting introverting power), is non-dualism, then I rather be a dualist. If I have to speak “softly” and spiritually “serene”, while closing my eyes to lost myself in the “emptiness” and “stillness” of everything, is non-dualism, then I rather be a dualist.
If the diminishing of my passions for ANYTHING in my life, is a sign of “awakening”, then I rather remain “asleep”. If my family and love ones are going to notice a sort of emotional “unattachment” to them, with a kind of “passionless” and less ARC-ish approach to them, is a sign that I am finding myself in the emptiness and stillness of “Self”, then I rather stay “un-enlightened” and into the “Darkness”. If I need to depend on a “teacher” to answer or “guide” me to the answers to my questions, is non-dualism, then I rather be an self-centered Ego-individual.
Btw, I am PRETTY sure that you perfectly understood my use of the term “Mother-fucker existence”, but I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt, though tonight you are not worthy of it in any way. But you know how I am. Here is a quote from Wikipedia. The caps are mine to emphasize how I used the word :
“Motherfucker (sometimes abbreviated as mofo, mf,or mf’er) is an English language vulgarism. While it is usually considered highly offensive, it is rarely used in the literal sense of one who engages in sexual activity with another person’s mother, or his or her own mother. Rather, it refers to a mean, despicable, or vicious person, OR ANY PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT OR FRUSTRATING SITUATION.” End of quote.
So “Mother-fucker existence” in that context means to me, a “difficult and frustrating existence” brought about not only by my own attitudes, but by the way that this game was designed/altered/modified by exterior influences, even though that when all is said and done, it was OURSELVES the ones who precipitated any bad effect on Self by some long forgotten actions in our existence as beings.
So if life is going in a direction that I don’t want it to go, I am not going to develop that silly and apathetic attitude that Mooji described in that video (which he has ALSO done at others as well) of “Let’s just not resist it; let’s go with the flow”. “Let’s rid ourselves of all desires of the ‘Ego’ ; of all ‘attachments’ and ‘false” passions”. “Just be in the “Now’, in the ‘Present’, and feel the ’emptiness’ that is ‘You’ “.
No, no way; I am going MAKE life to go where I want it to go, REGARDLESS of any resistence. And yes, yes, yes; I am going to use the emotion of “disappointment” and “frustration” to RAISE my necessity level to help me to defeat any and all odds. From my perspective, ANY other attitude, is just an apathetic comformity and acceptance of control from the environment . It is being a “serene” coward.
Marildi : “Whether that’s because you don’t really understand the principles; or because your viewpoint is predetermined and compelled by your own pet beliefs, opinions and fond egoic images of yourself; or because your views are in fact wiser, as you apparently assert – obviously, it’s your choice to decide.”
Well, I don’t have to “decide” what I have already decided, do I ? I liked you better as a Scientologist. At least you were more carefully with evaluating others, specially friends. . None of my previous replies to you were directed to you as a person, but towards specific concepts of non-dualism, and specific attitudes of Mooji and Adya. But they are not here to hear me, are they ? I have no clue why does it have to turn into a personal issue. It was (isn’t) never for me unless you make it so. You seems to know so little about me even after dozens (or hundreds) of comm exchanges with me.
Marildi : “In any case, I’ve already said enough about my own understanding of nondualism to know that I’m not going to change how you see it – even two of the top nonduality teachers haven’t been able to do that.”
Perhaps “teachers” to YOU, not to me. So first was “Enforced Scientology” and now it is “Enforced Non-dualism” ? The FACT is, that in numerous videos from Adya and more specifically, from Mooji, they “”handled” the “difficulties/questions” of the questioners/Satsang’s participants, in a much less “all-inclusive” way that I myself would have done it, acting with much higher ARC and KRC towards ALL parties involved, and not just towards the participant himself. That can only mean that I can learn nothing from either of them as regards compassion, kindness and understanding towards my fellow beings. And am I supposed to have as a “teacher” or “spiritual leader”, someone who shows less general ARC and KRC than I am capable of ? That would be sort of silly, indeed.
I am NOT saying that either of them is irresponsible or careless, or unkind; they are definitively Not by a long ways. All I am saying is that I can do it as good as they do, and even better in many, many scenarios. But if you feel that they can be your teachers, be my guess. It is your life, not mine. I can perfectly have you as you are, which apparently you are unable to flow back to me. You just want me as long as I feel/think as you feel/think. But I can even have that as well. How’s that for being “enlightened” ?
Marildi : “I would agree with you that they don’t all have the same teachings on all points – but I think they do on the most basic ones. ”
But of course, Marildi; non-dualism is non-dualism.
Marildi : “Those include the idea that the single absolute reality/truth is spirit and all other “truths” about life are relative to our conditioning – regardless of how real or true they may seem. ”
To which I DO NOT agree to varying degrees, but you apparently attempt to force it on me with all your videos, which I do enjoy, but not 100% of all of them.
Marildi : “And btw, I myself haven’t necessarily gone along with everything taught by any one of these teachers, or by all of them – other than the basic principles.”
Doesn’t seems that way to me, if you want my sincerity which you have always had. I could be wrong, though. But so far, I have not been a witness in this blog as to any specific disagreements you have with any of Mooji’s or Adya’s teachings. Perhaps you will care to fill me in on that.
Marildi : “Regardless of anything, you obviously have the right to choose your own path…”
The way you replied to my post today makes that assertion TOTALLY insincere.
Marildi : “… and I wish you well on whatever it evolves to be. I have confidence that things will turn out for the best – for all of us. It’s just a matter of when.”
Thanks! I wish you well on your path as well. No more Adya or Mooji for me anymore, please. I’ll just take from them on my own whatever works for me, and whatever resonates with me, no enforcements of any kind – not even the subtle ones – allowed. And yes, things will turn out all right as there is a virtue that I possess to a very marked degree, even if it sometimes appear that I don’t. That virtue is a VERY strong FAITH.
“See” you around. 🙂
Peter, sorry but the gentleman’s ego doth protest too much. The majority of what you wrote is sheer dub-in and dramatization. I think you even have an MU on the key word of this discussion – ego. In the context of nondualism, it does not mean “self-centered.” Using the appropriate definition, some egos are self-denying and into self-abasement as part of their conditioned identity.
Anyway, my primary interest isn’t in how ARC-ful I can be – I’m interested in the pursuit of truth. If you want to communicate to me from that standpoint, instead of with HE&R and preconceived ideas, maybe we can be friends. Otherwise, there wouldn’t even be much ARC in it, would there?
Now, Marildi; replying to those comments from you with more than these few sentences, would REALLY make me a “Self-denying” and “Self-abased” Ego, neither of which I am. Really Marildi, Scientology suited you better. You’ve apparently forgotten about the self-discipline of being an auditor with all that it encompasses. As an “Ego gentleman”, as you just called me, I’ll do the proper thing and say no more. I’ll treat you as a lady even if you are unworthy of that treatment today. I’ll spend my time better by replying to Elizabeth, who apparently can respect differences so much better. Perhaps Geir was right all along. Silly me.
p.s. Did you watch the short (10 minutes) Adhashanti video I posted upstream, about personal will? It’s here: https://isene.me/2016/01/24/a-note-on-free-will/#comment-105935
That’s the one where he explains what is meant by personal will rather than universal will or the will of the One (one spirit).
He also explains in that one why so many men experience a mid-life crisis and why the various passions they used to have start to diminish, and they get upset about it. I thought his description might fit some of the male posters on this very blog. 😀
Here’s another one about personal will. It’s short too (8 minutes):
Marildi : “p.s. Did you watch the short (10 minutes) Adhashanti video I posted upstream, about personal will? It’s here: https://isene.me /2016/01/24/a-note-on-free-will/#comment-105935.”
Yes, thanks; I just saw it, and the other one from Adya that you just posted, on the subject of Free Will as well.
Marildi : “That’s the one where he explains what is meant by personal will rather than universal will or the will of the One (one spirit).”
Yeah, I got Adya’s take on what he considers the differences between the two Wills are.
Marildi : “He also explains in that one why so many men experience a mid-life crisis and why the various passions they used to have start to diminish, and they get upset about it. I thought his description might fit some of the male posters on this very blog. 😀 ”
Well, I am certainly old enough to be experiencing the “Mid-life crisis”, but don’t have any accomplishments to amount to anything, if I am to be honest about it. But give me another 3-5 years, and then I might fit in that group. 🙂
I perfectly understand Adya’s take on that; I just don’t agree with him, that’s all. It just feels intuitively wrong, as I had explained to you before. For me “less passion” = SOMETHING VERY WRONG with the alleged “fundamental”. If we, dear angel, would have wanted as beings to stay at “Serenity of Beingness” – which IS, IS what non-dualists (95% of them) are trying to get to, and the Tone Level that fit with the description of the goals/characteristics of non-dualism – we would have never gone down to “Action” and “Games” in the first place. That we DID, MUST mean something.
Most of the participants of non-dualism are using it to AVOID confronting and experiencing Life. It can insidiously become an easy escape from Reality. One thing if to find ourselves as Beings by letting all the “Ego balloons” to fly away leaving only the Self present (to this, I FULLY agree to). But another ENTIRELY different thing is needing to STAY at “Serenity of Beingness” which ALL those videos are trying to get us remain at. It just doesn’t appeal to me, and I bet you that it doesn’t appeal to 90% of the Earth’s population.
Anything, but ANYTHING that diminishes our passions and desires has something insidiously wrong with it, from my perspective. It is actually Self-denial as far as I am concerned, and you know that I have already seen most of Adya’s and Mooji’s videos on this subject. And I am not convinced, Marildi; not even a bit, but just the opposite : I have reaffirmed my own reality on this even more every time I see a new video.
About the only thing that appeals to me from non-dualism – which in fact, is probably more than 50% of it – is the concept of Ego(s) [ LRH’s concept of “Valences” and GPMs Terms-Oppterms] , the difference between Ego-values v/s Spirit-values, and the concept of “Oneness” as opposed to “Separateness” which to me (this “Separateness”) is the SOLE cause of suffering and of the dwindling spiral. But besides those 3 specific things (which is really a LOT, if you come to think of it) , non-dualism is definitively not my Life’s path. And neither is Scientology for that matter. And neither is religion nor science. I am still looking for it, though. And will share it with you once I do find it. In fact, you’ll be the first one to know about it. 🙂
Peter: “Well, I am certainly old enough to be experiencing the “Mid-life crisis”, but don’t have any accomplishments to amount to anything, if I am to be honest about it. But give me another 3-5 years, and then I might fit in that group. 🙂 ”
That’s what I like about you – your honesty. 🙂 Nevertheless, you must have missed the part in the video where Adya adds that even if the guy failed at everything, he would still have a mid-life crisis and be desperately trying one last time to “succeed” – i.e. to succeed in accordance with ego values, not spirit values.
The principle in non-dualism is that no one who is caught up in separateness actually succeeds, and that any happiness attained is always fleeting. (Did you also miss that part? And the part about enlightenment being the only true joy and fulfillment? I recommend word clearing – or better yet, false data stripping. 😀 )
Peter: “For me ‘less passion’ = SOMETHING VERY WRONG with the alleged ‘fundamental’.”
In the video, Adya also stated that the person doesn’t lose interest in all the things he had been passionate about, just some of them – the ones that were ego-driven and only had the purpose of satisfying egoic “needs” and the image of self.
Peter: “One thing is to find ourselves as Beings by letting all the ‘Ego balloons’ to fly away leaving only the Self present (to this, I FULLY agree to). But another ENTIRELY different thing is needing to STAY at ‘Serenity of Beingness’ which ALL those videos are trying to get us remain at.”
I didn’t get it that way, my friend. You are no doubt right that some of the participants in the satsangs are misapplying the teaching – and looking at them as representative of it would give a misunderstanding of what non-dualism really is.
Peter: “About the only thing that appeals to me from non-dualism – which in fact, is probably more than 50% of it – is the concept of Ego(s) [LRH’s concept of ‘Valences’ and GPM Terms-Oppterms], the difference between Ego-values v/s Spirit-values, and the concept of ‘Oneness’ as opposed to ‘Separateness’ which to me (this ‘Separateness’) is the SOLE cause of suffering and of the dwindling spiral.”
At last our minds meet in Oneness. 🙂
Peter: “But besides those 3 specific things (which is really a LOT, if you come to think of it) , non-dualism is definitively not my Life’s path. And neither is Scientology for that matter. And neither is religion nor science. I am still looking for it, though. And will share it with you once I do find it. In fact, you’ll be the first one to know about it. 🙂 ”
Well, you’ve just made up for anything you’ve written that was not correct. I think there is a 4th thing that you will like, as explained in this little video of less than 5 minutes. I predict you’re going to like it:
Peter (before) : “Well, I am certainly old enough to be experiencing the ‘Mid-life crisis’, but don’t have any accomplishments to amount to anything, if I am to be honest about it. But give me another 3-5 years, and then I might fit in that group. 🙂 ”
Marildi : “That’s what I like about you – your honesty. :)”
Well, I feel the exact same way about you, sunshine! 🙂
Marildi : “Nevertheless, you must have missed the part in the video where Adya adds that even if the guy failed at everything, he would still have a mid-life crisis and be desperately trying one last time to “succeed” –i.e. to succeed in accordance with ego values, not spirit values.”
Yeah, it seems that I had missed that part.
Marildi : “The principle in non-dualism is that no one who is caught up in separateness actually succeeds, and that any happiness attained is always fleeting. (Did you also miss that part? And the part about enlightenment being the only true joy and fulfillment? I recommend word clearing – or better yet, false data stripping . 😀 ) ”
Ooooouch!!! , that hurt, sweetie. 🙂 But the “pain” that you bring to my life is sweet and warm, thank you! 🙂 ❤
Peter (from before) : “For me ‘less passion’ = SOMETHING VERY WRONG with t he alleged ‘fundamental’.”
Marildi : "In the video, Adya also stated that the person doesn’t lose interest in all the things he had been passionate about, just some of them – the ones that were ego-driven and only had the purpose of satisfying egoic “needs” and the image of self."
Yes, thank you; I got it in the 2nd time that I watched the video w/out my Ego trying to hold on to old patterns. 🙂 It is not easy to let go, my dear Marildi; my "demons" call on to me. 🙂
Peter (from before) : “One thing is to find ourselves as Beings by letting all the ‘Ego balloons’ to fly away leaving only the Self present (to this, I FULLY agree to). But another ENTIRELY different thing is needing to STAY at ‘Serenity of Beingness’ which ALL those videos are trying to get us remain at.”
Marildi : "I didn’t get it that way, my friend. You are no doubt right that some of the participants in the satsangs are misapplying the teaching"
Not just "some", but almost 90% of the ones I have observed/listened to. Just as it happened with Scn; VERY few really got it.
Marildi : " – and looking at them as representative of it would give a misunderstanding of what non-dualism really is."
That's a very wise comment/viewpoint indeed! It even deserves some poetry for you, but I don't want to push it. 🙂 Perhaps another day.
Peter (from before) : “About the only thing that appeals to me from non-duali sm – which in fact, is probably more than 50% of it – is the concept of Ego(s) [LRH’s concept of ‘Valences’ and GPM Terms-Oppterms], the difference between Ego-values v/s Spirit-values, and the concept of ‘Oneness’ as opposed to ‘Separateness’ which to me (this ‘Separateness’) is the SOLE cause of suffering and of the dwindling spiral.”
Marildi : "At last our minds meet in Oneness. 🙂 "
They had already met since a VERY long time ago. 🙂
Peter (from before) : “But besides those 3 specific things (which is really a LOT, if you come to think of it) , non-dualism is definitively not my Life’s path. And neither is Scientology for that matter. And neither is religion nor science. I am still looking for it, though. And will share it with you once I do find it. In fact, you’ll be the first one to know about it. 🙂 ”
Marildi : "Well, you’ve just made up for anything you’ve written that was not correct. I think there is a 4th thing that you will like, as explained in this little video of less than 5 minutes. I predict you’re going to like it: "
I not only liked it, I loved it; thank you! It perfectly aligns with my own views : the "Right path" has always been US ourselves. It is never "Out there"; it is right where one is.
Okay M. This is yet ANOTHER teacher to add to the list that wants me to give up my ego. Have you noticed that every spiritual teacher suggests this like it is the BEST idea ever? And such a feat is IMPOSSIBLE. If this teacher guy has kids, I assure you his ego is blown sky high every other week if he has a teenage daughter.
Here is a short list of religions that have asked me to lose or submit my ego:
Christianity (God made you not yourself so submit your ego to god.)
Islam (Allah created you so you must submit to his will).
Martial Arts (You must submit your ego to the teacher).
Buddhism (Your ego is a delusion it isn’t real.)
Hinduism (“Look Arjuna, I’m the shit yo, so submit to your boss man Krishna”)
ALISTAIR FUCKING CROWLEY (Said that the denial of ego is the MOST important thing in spiritual advancement)
Neuroscience (the soul is a fiction so why believe in it?)
These all claims in one form or another, that one must surrender the ego or submit to the notion that it was created by another, or that it doesn’t exist at all.
I say “Fuck them all.” I love my ego. I love my pain. I choose to love life even when it commits evil acts I don’t like because THAT is the truth. I love my ego when it is crushed by infinity.
And I want my life the way I WANT it. And if I don’t have it that way, then I STILL want to enjoy my own ego so much that such an inconvenience is nothing in comparison! And I want an open heart to others to let them choose their own way.
Have you ever heard of the phrase, “So good, you can’t shake a stick at it”? The reason it is useful is that one can LITERALLY shake a stick at ANYTHING.
So if something was that good it would be IMPOSSIBLY good.
Zazen, IMHO, is the ultimate shaking stick of the universe.
Genocide? Shake a sit at it.
Ego blown? Shake a sit at it.
Wonder if you have a soul? Shake a sit at it.
Sissy, pansy, cry-baby spiritual teacher telling you to let go of your ego? Shake a sit at it.
Zen teacher telling you that you have no soul? Shake a sit at it.
There is nothing in the world one cannot shake a sit at. So IMHO one might as well have an ego the size of Texas.
Kata : “I say “Fuck them all.” I love my ego. I love my pain. I choose to love life even when it commits evil acts I don’t like because THAT is the truth. I love my ego when it is crushed by infinity.”
“And I want my life the way I WANT it. And if I don’t have it that way, then I STILL w ant to enjoy my own ego so much that such an inconvenience is nothing in comparison! And I want an open heart to others to let them choose their own way.”
That’s THE WHOLE IDEA, Kata. “Ego” is a VERY misunderstood word indeed! It seems to me that what you call “my ego”, is what you really are; the way you see life and existence, which is an UNIQUE view from each of us. If something feels right from within, it usually is.
KG: “Okay M. This is yet ANOTHER teacher to add to the list that wants me to give up my ego…I say ‘Fuck them all.’”
I don’t know if you watched that last Adyashanti video I posted but it was all about saying “Fuck them all” to the various paths. That’s the 5-minute one just a couple posts above, titeled “The Enlightened Shoe.”
It’s pretty interesting how much synchronicity is happening on this thread – first with Peter, and now with you. Today I was reading a chapter in one of Adyashanti’s books, which talks about the indispensable quality of being motivated towards truth. I keep getting the idea that this is your motivation. Here’s a quote:
“…telling the truth is an aspect of awakening. It may not seem like it, because it’s very practical and very human. It’s not transcendent. It’s not about pure consciousness. It’s about how pure consciousness manifests as a human being in an undivided way. We must be able to manifest what we realize, and we must also come to grips with and start to notice the very forces within us that keep us from manifesting truthfulness in every situation.”
That’s from Adyashanti’s book, *The End of Your World* – described as “uncensored straight talk on the nature of enlightenment.” Here’s a link to an online version of it: https://issuu.com/stellarnations/docs/adyashanti_-_the_end_of_your_world
KG: “And I want my life the way I WANT it. And if I don’t have it that way, then I STILL want to enjoy my own ego so much that such an inconvenience is nothing in comparison! And I want an open heart to others to let them choose their own way.
More synchronicity, I would say. Here is another paragraph in that same chapter I was reading today:
“Part of awakening, if it is true and authentic, is the gift of freedom to the whole world. Upon awakening, freedom is given to everybody. True freedom isn’t simply ‘I’m free.’ True freedom is ‘Everything is free.’ This means everybody has the freedom to be who they are – whether they are awake or not awake, deluded or not deluded. Freedom is the realization that everything and everybody gets to be exactly as they are. Unless we’ve come to that point, unless we’ve seen that this is how reality sees things, then we’re actually withholding freedom from the world. We’re seeing it as a possession, and we’re only concerned with ourselves. How good can I feeling? How free can I feel? True freedom is a gift to everything and everybody.” (Chapter 5)
Btw, have you considered that you might have had an awakening, or a partial one? One common sign is synchronicity. 🙂 Google “symptoms of awakening” and check it out.
I really am with Joseph Campbell on this one. The notion of the Individual IS the unique gift we have to give to the world.
CAMPBELL: “We can observe the ‘Perfections of the Buddhas’ from this side of Iran so to say.”
And ALL Buddhas are the same! Because they are PERFECT.
What makes an individual UNIQUE is not perfection but FLAWS.
A flawed being able to face his flaws and love them DEEPLY beats any sissy Buddha IMHO.
Why? Because perfections are uniform, but only flaws can create an individual.
“If you take away the hunch from the hunchback, you take away his spirit, so do the people teach.” – Zarathustra
“A flawed being able to face his flaws and love them DEEPLY beats any sissy Buddha IMHO.”
Now you sound like Mooji. 🙂 Here you go:
Our deeply flawed Krik. After this he got a ray bolt through the chest.
Oh you flawed actor you. I love your melodramatic awkwardness!
Our flaws, in the hands of the wise, are superpowers.
Kata : “So if Free Will is a potential is it akin to a RPG die roll?”
Not at all. “Potential” and “Probability/chance” are not synonyms in any way, shape or form. In probability, an element might be or not present at any giving time according to the the laws of change. But “Potential” is always there present at all time; it has nothing to do with “chance” or “luck”.I mean, “Potential” and “Probability” are not even under the same classification of things. That’s how apart they are from each other. You missed the point.
Milestone Two had an article on “Absolute Clear.”
In the comments was this statement by Scakjabbers:
“Clear is Clear. You can have your doubts, because you still smoke or you get the occasional case of the sniffles or you still see pictures. Those are all cases of not understanding the state.”
Wow. Did I cause that with my never ending “at cause over hand to mouth rants?
Probably not. I doubt many read my tripe over here.
Let’s talk Clear from an outsider looking in.
The point I want to make with this is the following which most of us already agree with: Clear is a FUNCTIONALLY flawed state by Hubbard’s own criteria. It is flawed in that its attainment does not align with the abilities one is promised by Hubbard (perfect memory, no colds etc …).
And, from what I hear, it is AWESOME.
From what I can see from the outside, it is a total mind blow. A sky high reality of experience. It is deeply meaningful. It is something never forgotten for one’s whole life as one faces a mythology of one’s own soul across a seemingly eternal timeline of life spans.
… AND …
It provides no demonstrable ABILITY that separates Clears above wogs.
So, I think Scatjabbers is right, and he can’t SAY this at MS2, but what he is indirectly saying is that Hubbard didn’t understand (or if he did, he didn’t communicate) what Clear was and what the Clear person could REALLY expect.
My guess is that SJ probably won’t agree with that, but SJ’s own post points to a notion that clear exists, but not as it is sold.
Clear is an amazing religious experience, based on testimonies, and probably a mountain top worthy of all the cost to get there (in the 1970s). But … eventually …
One has to climb down.
And then one gets to check if one’s body does what one want it to do in regards to how one wants to live one’s life.
If I was clear, I would spend the rest of my life just polishing TRs. I think TRs actually make some functional improvements in Zazen practice.
And .. if one practices Zazen, one will get to the same place IMHO.
ZEN STUDENT: “My legs hurt. I’m upset my dad made me do this.”
ZEN TEACHER: “It will pass.”
ZEN STUDENT: “WOW! I just had the coolest experience ever!”
ZEN TEACHER: “It will pass.”
ZEN TEACHER: “So you had something like an enlightenment experience?
ZEN STUDENT: “It will pass.”
Marildi…. since you said sincerity is the key… well here is my reality where I stand on enlightenment, this video will explain the level of my sophistication hehehe…
Cute video. And deep too, if you take it the way I do. 🙂 Here’s the first verse:
Now I’m the king of the swingers
Oh, the jungle VIP
I’ve reached the top and had to stop
And that’s what botherin’ me
I wanna be a man, mancub
And stroll right into town
And be just like the other men
I’m tired of monkeyin’ around!
However, it doesn’t sound like you, because it’s actually a nondualist point of view – i.e. it’s the worldview of those who are liberated and yet want to be human “just like the other men.” In other words, they want to be human but not be “monkeyin’ around.”
Marildi.. I will never know what deep means to you…
To me this video is simply fun, great beat.. fantastic characters, yet simple, so simple even 3 year old understands and can enjoy and top of that they don’t have to understand what those words mean.
They don’t mean a thing for me either!
knowing-speaking words don’t mean enlightenment.
Elizabeth: “knowing-speaking words don’t mean enlightenment.”
Of course not, E. But when words are understood, they can give someone a direction to take. Otherwise, I don’t think you yourself would bother using words to tell people your views. As another example, without the words of Scientology, you would never have gone in the direction you did.
Have you noticed that you keep repeating your opinion about words – and then I have to repeat my opinion? 🙂
Anyway, peace and goodnight to everybody.
Marildi…”Of course not, E. But when words are understood, they can give someone a direction to take. Otherwise, I don’t think you yourself would bother using words to tell people your views. As another example, without the words of Scientology, you would never have gone in the direction you did.”
When your great gurus whom you identify with [please note small ‘g’ ] will put out Technology like the Comm. C….. HQS Course, the ASC. Book on SA. And these simple courses to those who have completed them brought changes, incredible changes when your gurus who you so admire will produce something that, than I will change my viewpoint on these useless critters..
I bought 36 hours’ worth of auditing from a Field Auditor and I havent had a clue that it was scientology… But he applied basic assists, than basic simple auditing ‘’Life repair” and that worked: changed my life for the better!
When he used up those 36 hours he sent me to go and take the Comm. Course at Vancouver’s Mission. I still did not know what scientology was!
Marildi, it was the Technology and its use brought me the understanding what is and what is not… therefore I know from my experience that those words used by the gurus IS NOT LEADING TO SPIRITULA FREEDOM!
Sorry folks, I am just going to let my crazy-poet Ego escape for a while tonight, because my heart is complaining a lot about why have I forgotten him today. Silly heart, I’ve been trying to repair him all this time with Assists; just what the hell does he think that I have been doing all this time ? So I asked him, “Hey, you silly, haven’t you been feeling any better, I’ve already spent quite a few hours on you ?”. My heart replies, “Yes, you have indeed, and I did got a lot better; thank you. But tonight I feel strange. It is a pain I can’t describe”.
“Why do you mean you can’t describe it, where is it hurting ?” “I am hurring ‘inside’ “,replies the heart. “Inside what, you confused heart ?” “Well, my very dear Davis, I better show you with a song” :
HEART THAT LIES
Worlds divided by a shadow of betrayal. Paths that are united over rivers of pain. The greed was planting the venom and the ambition. Between doubts and an abyss. Heart that lies to heart.
I wanted to get away, I wanted to forget you, but heaven did not allow it. Our destiny was already written,
between oceans of fire and passion. I am a slave in your body that burns; in a game that I’m winner of. Endless nights of making love to you.
There are sins of the past, that want to trap us; and forgotten promises waiting to wake up. The greed was planting, the venom and the ambition. Between doubts and a abyss, the heart is held.
I wanted to get away, I wanted to forget you, but heaven did not allow it. Our destiny was already written, between oceans of fire and passion. I am a slave in your body that burns, In a game that I’m winner of; endless nights….
It turned into a punishment, trying to pretend that we are enemies, when your skin cries my being.
I wanted to get away, I wanted to forget you, but heaven did not allow it. Our destiny was already written, between oceans of fire and passion. I am a slave in your body that burns, In a game that I’m winner of; Endless nights, of making love to you
“Ok Heart, I listened to the song, but I still doesn’t understand why are you still sad”. “I am sad about so many things, David; today I feel the emptiness of it all, just not the ‘awakening’ one”. “I just don’t understand, dear Heart, isn’t ‘Emptiness’ supposed to be a good thing, a sort of bliss ?” “There is another type, my dear Davis; one that has no bottom and no light in it”. I still don’t get what is wrong with you, my dear Heart; I am afraid that you talk in riddles”. “Well David, you know how the saying goes, ‘A song is worth a thousand words’, so here is this for you” :
Elizabeth, katageek, Chris, and all other cynics of the world unite! Your cynicism about gurus and paths to awakening and enlightenment has been vindicated – maybe even surpassed – by none other than Adyashanti in the short video below. Here’s an excerpt from it:
“…99 percent of what people are doing to wake up is actually reinforcing the dream state. It’s shocking!
“You know that old thing we tell each other to calm ourselves into a totally deluded oblivion – like: ‘All roads lead to God.’ No, they don’t! ‘All paths lead to the top of the mountain.’ No – most paths lead nowhere near the top of the mountain! The good ones, even the half-way decent ones, are only circling the bottom of the mountain. All the rest are usually going in the opposite direction as quickly as possible. Yes, (if) you want to get really fancy, you know, they’ll go all the way around the globe and eventually wind up at the mountain. So if you want to do that kind of silly thing… But it’s not actually true.
“Actually, all paths lead away from the truth. How’s that? All paths. No such thing as a path to the truth. The truth is already here – where are you going?”
Marildi : “Elizabeth, katageek, Chris, and all other cynics of the world unite! Your cynicism ab out gurus and paths to awakening and enlightenment has been vindicated – maybe even surpassed – by none other than Adyashanti in the short video below. Here’s an excerpt from it:.”
Why is it that you feel that others MUST agree with you on anything, specially on your views of life based on non-dualism ? Isn’t it enough that you believe in it, and feel comfortable with it ? If others disagree with your beliefs, and even mock them (including me), just let them be. Isn’t “Allowing things to be as it is” a KEY part of the teachings ? Then apply it to your current situation. Yo need not the approval from others to follow/like your beliefs about anything. Let anybody here, including Peter, to say what they want about it, and just allow things to be as they are. Do not resist the flow, but go with it. Embrace pluralism no matter how much it seems to go against Oneness; it really doesn’t. It is actually a manifestation of the Spirit and of the Will.
You are ok with me, girl, you are. I am sorry if I made you feel excluded. I didn’t really mean those things I said, specially that you were unworthy of my heart and my thoughts, you never were. I am sorry if you had a rough time last night. I DO love you, you know, with all my heart, Just as you are. With your virtues, and with your “flaws”; with your great ability to show kindness, and with your great stubbornness as well. 🙂
Peter: “Let anybody here, including Peter, to say what they want about it, and just allow things to be as they are.”
Then why not “just allow things to be as they are” when I post something, eh? 😉
And please honor my request to send me an email if you have personal things to say. I’ll gladly reply to them on that line. Okay?
Peter: “Let anybody here, including Peter, to say what they want about it, and just allow things to be as they are.”
Marildi : “Then why not ‘just allow things to be as they are’ when I post something, eh?
You are right. Sorry, my comments were a sincere effort to make you feel better. I won’t bother you.
Marildi : “And please honor my request to send me an email if you have personal things to say. I’ll gladly reply to them on that line. Okay?”
Okay Marildi; will do so when the proper time comes, which it seems that it is not today.
sooooo???? this only proves that you believe everything what gurus say.
I personally don’t give a hoot what he has to say and I definitely don’t need acknowledgement on what I know.
But thank you for posting it.. be well.
Pretty cool comment you posted M.
Again, IMHO, it points directly to zazen, or in your tradition TR0.
When I JUST SIT and drop my body and mind, there is no path to the truth, just a will to the truth.
TEACHER: “What is the Buddha dharma?”
STUDENT: “No gaining. No knowing.”
TEACHER: “Anything else?”
STUDENT: “The mountain cares not about the passing clouds.”
I’m getting my Zazen practice back in line and my life more like how I designed it. So, it’s off to zen retreat next week.
I’m sure it will hand me my ass.
Great, kat – I knew you would appreciate that point of view. I assume you know that Adyashanti reached awakening through practicing Zen – or do you?
Funny enough, I just got it that Zen is a non-duality teaching! I had wondered about it, and about Buddhism in general, but had the idea they weren’t – so I never check it out to be sure.
Just now when I googled the phrase you quoted – “No gaining, no knowing” – to see what it meant, I came across a google books link for a book about Zen – where I read in the text something about “our usual dualistic thinking.” So then I googled my question – and found out that Zen is definitely a non-dual teaching, as is Buddhism in general. Duh! 🙄
As for “No gaining, no knowing,” here’s a cool excerpt about it from the same book:
“This is really the key. With no gaining and no knowing, you are just sitting when you sit, only working when you work. This is doing for the thing itself. Nothing else. Then whatever activity you engage in, and wherever you are, you have the same conditions and opportunity to encounter this unconditional experience.
“No matter what age you are, or what sex you are, or how long you’ve been practicing, no gaining and no knowing is the key for you to experience the same universal thing. Thinking of the goal won’t get you there; you have to lose yourself within the activity.
“You are the activity, and the activity itself has no beginning and no end. When you rake the ground, the ground rakes you. The ground tells you where to rake. The ground tells you how to rake. You become the activity, and the activity becomes you. This is just sitting. This is studying the Dharma for the sake of the Dharma. This is true intimacy. Any thought of gain is extra.” (from *No Beginning, No End: The Intimate Heart of Zen* by Jakusho Kwong, Thich Nhat Hanh, Peter Levitt)
Looking forward to hearing about your retreat when you come back. Enjoy. 🙂
p.s. You might like this video too. Adyashanti speaks to the double conundrum of…
…soul and free will. 😉
Thanks M. Great read!
Hey, I’m glad. 😀
A Critique of Non-dualism
I’ve been meaning to give my opinion on non-dualism for the benefit of others here, and specially as it relates to this subject of Free Will from this thread. I’ve been studying/practicing it since a few months ago, by watching lots of videos from Mooji and Adyashanti (the two top non-dualist teachers in the western), by reading a lot about it in different Google-searches, and by reading a few books/booklets on it. I’ve been honest and unbiased in my study of it, as I always am with anything that I research/do.
I originally started with a very high ARC for the subject, but as I immersed myself more and more into it, I began to feel with my space collapsed, more detached from existence, and less courageous (more conformist) towards conquering the barriers to the accomplishing of my life’s goals and purposes. I began to observe manifestations in many of the participants of the satsangs (and in the teachers themselves) that indicated a less passionate and emotional reaction towards life and existence. I’ve always been an excellent objective competent observer, though I sure that there are those who think otherwise, and that would probably think that I am just “dubbing-in”.
Non-dualism is based on a series of principles, some of which I am enumerating here, from Andrew Vernon’s “Beyond Consciousness : The Basic Principles of Non-dualism”. Vernon was a student of Shri Ranjit Maharaj, a well known non-dualism “guru”. Just type his name in YouTube. I picked up these quotes from Vernon, as it basically summarize the principles upon which non-dualism is based, even though there can be slight variations from teacher to teacher. I just picked up the most important points, while leaving the same number as they were listed in the book. Comments between brackets just below each numbered item, are mine.
I hope that Geir is not in disagreement with my posting of this. It does relates to the thread on Free Will, and VERY specially so. Besides, I felt that it was my duty to expose my views on this subject in the best interest towards freedom, self-determinism, and power of choice over data. I just didn’t want it to get lost on some unfrequented space.
Fundamental Principles :
1. The world is the manifestation of the will of the Absolute.
[This means that there actually isn’t an “Individual’s Will”, but only the “Will of the Absolute” manifesting itself through each one of us. Watching/listening to Adyashanti (one of the top non-dualism “gurus” of the western. He doesn’t even wear robes nor have long beard; how “empathetic” and “reality-matching” of him), one can erroneously feel that he only refers to the “Ego’s Will” when he talks about the “Individual’s Will”. But that he believe in the “Spirit-Will”. What is not clearly understood is, though, that by the “Will of the Spirit” (capitalized), Adya isn’t really talking about the Will of EACH one of us as spirits, but about the “Will” of “Absolute Consciousness”; in other words, the “Divine Will” (God’s Will, as referred to by many, many non-dualists), manifesting itself through each one of us. So in essence, there actually isn’t such a thing as “Individual Will” in non-dualism].
2. The world of multiplicity, of separate objects that the mind sees, is an illusion.
[In non-dualism, EVERYTHING except The “Spirit” (as opposed to “a spirit”, not capitalized), is an “illusion”. They DO believe, however, in an “Absolute Reality”, call it “God”, “The Consciousness”, “The Spirit (always capitalized), or whatever. EVERYTHING is just the manifestation of the “One”, or of “Oneness”. EVERYTHING else except “Oneness” (This “Absolute Reality”), is just an illusion created by the “Mind”, according to non-dualism.]
3. The world is fundamentally a positive, joyful place.
[Yeah right!!! “The World” means absolutely nothing at all; any joy comes from the INDIVIDUAL spirit, from the “Self”, from the “I” that non-dualist deny so, so much. In other words, joy is an individual quality.]
5. The experiencer of the world is a temporary appearance only.
[By “experiencer”, of course, they are meaning the “You”, the “Self”, the “I”. And because we are All (and everything else for that matter) really the “One” (according to non-dualism), then, of course, every “Self” is just an “illusion”; an “apparency”.]
6. The world of names and forms is not real. In reality, there is only oneness.
[The same stupidity said differently.]
9. The entire process of evolution of consciousness, through the infinite number of forms, is manifest against the unchanging background of the Absolute Reality.
[“Unchanging background of ‘Absolute’ Reality”?; don’t you love the sound of that ?]
10. The unmanifest is the Absolute Reality.
12. The unmanifest and manifest aspects of reality are not separate, just as the sun and its light are not separate.
[The most EXTREME example that I have ever seen of A=A=A. You= Me = Sara = Geir = Chris = Elizabeth = Kata = a tree = ANY tree = a planet = energy = space = a wall, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah, yawn, yawn, yawn. Gee, why don’t we all get married, and be done with it!!! ]
13. It is the manifest aspect of reality that we call God.
[Hello God, creator of ALL things!]
14. Reality can never be explained or experienced because it cannot be an object.
[So according to non-dualism, no idea or concept can’t ever be understood and/or experienced because they are actually never an object; not even energy. A thought is a true static. ]
15. Because reality is what you are, there is no path to it and no way to find it.
[That’s just a circular silly logic, and a way to say, “I don’t really know what the hell is “Reality” or Life”. In non-dualism, there are no “paths to Truth”. A “path” is a way, a method, a means to get to, to arrive at something; to “Truth” in this case. By just the fact of “meditating”, which is an essential part of non-dualism, one is DOING something; an “action” aimed at DISCOVERING something, to CONTACT it, to FEEL it, to EXPERIENCE it. I am sorry, but that sounds like a PATH to me, for all practical purposes. This nonsense about, “There isn’t really a path to Truth”, is just that; nonsense and mumbo-jumbo silly talk.]
17. Reality is absolutely trustworthy.
[Ask an approaching comet that is coming to Earth.]
18. Consciousness is the divine power, is God, is full of goodness and beauty, and is the object of all worship.
[Yeah ? Why doesn’t “God” worship “ME” for a chance, if after all we all are “ONE” ? Just fundamentalism, I am afraid.]
19. The power of universal pure consciousness is God to the human being.
[Yeah, and whose “Divine Will”, we all need to subject ourselves to, because after all, according to non-dualism, there isn’t such as thing as “Individual Will”, but only “Spirit Will” (capitalized to differentiate it from the will of “Self”, of the “I”). We all are but “pieces” of “God”. What a self-denying”, self-abasing” concept indeed!]
20. Consciousness, in its formless state, does not identify with anything other than its own existence and bliss.
[That’s what I call a “Selfish Consciousness”!!! ]
21. Love is the power that makes the One into the many in order to have the many return to the One.
[So we are doomed then ? We have no choice but to “return to the One”!!! To hell with Individual Will! , ah? ]
22. Consciousness is enjoying itself as bliss in every form.
[Funny; I am not feeling it.]
26. The enjoyment is in the awareness of the non-existence of “I”.
[Wow, now that’s REALLY “profound”, isn’t it ? Let’s repeat it with emphasis this time :
[“THE ENJOYMENT IS IN THE AWARENESS OF THE NON-EXISTENCE OF ‘I’.” LOL How more self-denying and self-abasing can it get ?]
27. It is the enjoyment of existence itself that is real and alive.
[So “suffering” is just an state of mind; an “illusion” ?]
32. The human soul is an expression of consciousness, a vehicle of God’s will, an embodiment of love.
[“A vehicule of God’s will”? Fuck the Individual’s Will then, ah ?]
35. We cannot say what we are, because we are not any thing.
[Ok, so asking “Who/what Am I really am?” is TOTALLY meaningless then ?]
36. The separate “I” sense that appears in the human being is only apparent not real.
[More and more mumbo-jumbo in the direction of becoming more solid.]
37. The sense of “I” or individual consciousness depends on the food consumed by the body for its continued presence.
[So that’s why so many non-dualism’s “gurus” are frequently on a sort of diet then ?]
40. Unhappiness belongs only to the mind. Outside of it, there is no such thing.
[More horseshit, I am afraid. The Mind is a mechanism created to solve problems, and a very handy one, I may add. It is only a storage device, and like any storage device, it’ll give wrong answers, if one input wrong data into it. And putting data into it, and then not remembering that we did – as we silly human do – is the basic problem with the mind, and not the mind in itself. ]
43. Self-realization is the simple revelation of the mystery of infinite consciousness.
[Wait for me, “Infinite Consciousness”; I’ll arrive at your place at, let’s say, a 10¹⁴ trillion years ?]
44. Life is living and living is life. There is no one living a life.
[Let’s repeat that last part, “THERE IS NO ONE LIVING A LIFE”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ” I’ll be damned, how can anyone buy so much horseshit and self-abasement ?]
46. Life is not linear. There is no continuous individuality from moment to moment.
[So now non-dualists became mathematicians as well ?]
47. Life has no center. There is no fixed point in the machinery.
[More nonsense abstractions.]
48. The drama of world events and of each individual life is playing itself out as it must.
[Everything is “written” then ? Would that be the reason why non-dualists are so “slow” and “calmed” in their movement ? Would that be the reason why they actually look so lifeless and little passionate about life ? Would that be the reason why one seldom see “gurus” practicing sports, music, art in general, and other lovely manifestations of the so called “Ego” ? ]
49. There is no mind, apart from its contents.
[ Let me see if I understand that. When we take the water out of a bucket, the bucket never existed in the first place then ? Now I get it; thank you! ]
53. There is only one power, only one manifestation. It is not broken up into separate parts or individual existences.
[That’s the thoughts of coward self-denying, self-abnegating slaves of existence. ]
55. Everything manifests by means of natural processes, governed by natural laws.
[Wait a minute; I thought that EVERYTHING was a DIRECT manifestation of Consciousness, of Absolute Reality ? What do natural laws has anything to do with that ?]
56. There is no ―doer. There is no question of doing. There is just manifestation, one ―everything.
[Now I understand why a VERY frequent (and usually the first one) manifestation from non-dualists is a diminishing desire for activity, and even an ACTUAL diminishing in activity. The passion to create just dwindles. ]
57. Consciousness is living out this life, and all other lives, according to its own laws.
[Which is the same as saying, “There isn’t any Individual Will”, as “Consciousness” dictates all the rules of the game.]
58. Everything happens in the only way it can happen. What is happening now is the result of what has happened in the past.
Conformity, an apathetic and coward way to look at existence, and a sure way to a premature aging and death. I always wondered why these “gurus” aged so fast. I mean, Adya seems to have aged 10-15 years in only 2 years!!! Just watch one of his videos from 2-3 years ago, and then one from PT, and see it by yourselves. I couldn’t care less about old age – I look at the being and not at his body – but I DO care about aging faster, as that is a SURE sign that we are definitively not going towards Freedom, but towards the accumulation of ridges and masses. ]
60. The longing for unity, for reunion with the source is the common thread that runs through all of the diversity of the universe.
[That’s a TOTALLY dead-end road, from my perspective . One that leads towards self-denial, self-abnegation, unhappiness, deterioration, solidity, and eventual entrapment w/out even knowing what the hell happened to ourselves.]
61. Love for God is the first and last duty of the
[FUCK YOU!!! MOTHER-FUCKER GOD ]
62. Free will for human beings is a matter of conscious participation in the divine will.
[Just being happy slaves, I am afraid. ]
63. Consciousness never searches, never strives to find the answer, because for it there is no question.
[Yeah right! ]
65. The quickest and safest way for a spiritual aspirant to become a realized or enlightened being is to give up all desires in complete surrender to God.
[Oh yeah ? Why don’t you get your mother to do that, you silly slave of authoritarian “gurus” ? ]
66. Liberation is understanding that there is nothing to understand.
[WOW, these guys are really something, aren’t they ? These guys just keep getting themselves deeper and deeper into the mud of abstractions and the unreality of it all. ]
67. Ignorance doesn’t exist.
[Tell that to a criminal. In fact tell that to the WHOLE human race!!! In fact, the first IGNORANCE is from YOU, non-dualists! ]
68. Nothing negative exists.
69. Being is being positive.
71. The one who is free enjoys his freedom, without having to do anything.
[The same desire for “inactivity” by non-dualists that I referred to in my comments above. The impulse to “let everything as it is, and experience a slow painless death”. ]
72. Everything is perfect. Everything is as it
[Blindness. Stupidity. Fundamentalism. Cultism.]
And this just is from 2-3 pages of that book. Andrew Vernon was a student of Shri Ranjit Maharaj. We are not talking about just any non-dualist here.
The fact is, from my perspective, that we ALL are individuals, with very unique beingness and concepts of Self. And there lies exactly the beauty of Life; in its pluralism, and individualized manifestation of creation. There can be – and SHOULD BE – the concept of “Brotherhood with the world and with every living being”. But this is a different concept than “Oneness”. VERY different indeed, though it might not look that way at first sight.
Freedom is totally based on the availability of a self-determined Separateness . W/out the possibility of choosing to be separate or not at will from ANYTHING, only deterioration occurs as space and particles just collapse in in ourselves. Art and creation are based on separateness and Brotherhood, and not in “Oneness”. But “Separateness” and “Brotherhood with the world”, can and MUST co-exist. That’s what “Avatar” the movie was all about, and that’s why it became the the blockbuster it became; because it showed how Separateness, Brotherhood with EVERYTHING, and Individualism can ALL live together, and are, EACH ONE, an integral part of Freedom.
“LIVE LONG AND PROSPER, YOU BEAUTIFUL INDIVIDUALISM”.
There you have it folks, non-dualism 101 in so many words. Of course, there will be those that will tell, “Peter is just full of ‘M/Us” and ‘False data’, that’s all; he really doesn’t understand non-dualism, and blah, blah, blah.” Or “He is just ‘dubbing-in’ “. That in spite that I graduated top of my class in high school; was among the top 5 highest scores of the College Board Examination in the whole island in math/science/reasoning; with only 2 years of engineering, was going to be part of a group of nerds to be recruited by NASA back at the end of the ’80s (an opportunity I let go by stupidly); and always was among the top at anything I did (auditing, studying Scn, etc, etc. But when the impulse of “Making Wrong” is the one being dramatized, then of course that I might just look like a theetie weetie self-righteous dilettante for some. Gee, it seems that I did got something out of the Oldman!
Make of what I wrote whatever you want, fellows. It is free advice, and free analysis. The only thing that I am really certain about, is that I don’t know enough about anything. So this post is only my perspective of it, and absolutely nothing more, with all of its cynicism towards the subject. Sorry, I just couldn’t help it. 🙂
This is just more “Horseshit” from the same source, “Beyond Consciousness : Fundamental Principles on Non-duality” by Andrew Vernon. I am just in “Horseshit mode” tonight for having been so foolishly blind to all of this madness that is non-dualism. What on Earth was I thinking ? I thought that I was smarter than this, for Chris sakes!!!
This “System of beliefs” is even more insidiously destructive than Scientology’s cultic aspects, as the traps are so, so subtle, because one feels so “liberated” and “awakened”. Of course, one isn’t really “awakening” from a “dream state”, as non-dualists calls this “Ascention”, but ACTUALLY going into a dream state as a byproduct of this false “enlightenment”. A dream state described by self-negation, self-abnegation, diminishing activity, diminishing courage to meet and handle the barriers to the attainment of our goals and purposes, diminishing passion for life and all its games, diminishing creation, the accumulation of ridges, and the eventual solidification of Self.
No wonder I had been feeling so strange, so “unpreoccupied” and “disconnected” from things about which I should have been VERY concerned (not worry, but as in “caring about them”) about. My space had collapsed, and I was mainly being “sadly and serenely noble”. LOL But read this series of horseshit quotes, and be the judge yourselves. Caps are mine to emphasize :
“The sense of ―I or individual existence that is so important in human society IS AN ILLUSION. ―I AM OR ―I EXIST, IS A CONCEPT THAT ARISES IN THE MIND. THERE IS NO ―YOU. ―YOU DO NOT EXIST. THERE IS NO ―I. ―I DO NOT EXIST. ―YOU AND ―I, ARE ASSUMPTIONS THAT HAVE NO SUBSTANCE BEHIND THEM.”
“Many actions are performed and relationships formed based on these concepts. Almost all human affairs are carried out on this basis. But what meaning and significance can these actions have when their basis is false, unreal, and imaginary? ALL THOSE ACTIONS AND RELATIONSHIPS THAT ARE FOUNDED ON THE CONCEPT OF THE INDICIDUAL ―I, WHICH IS ITSELF BASED ON IGNORANCE, ARE REDUCED TO ZERO.”
“Is There Free Will? ” :
LIFE IS A PLAY THAT IS ALREADY WRITTEN IN ALL ITS ESSENTIAL POINTS, AND WE ARE THE ACTORS IN IT. What makes this play different from a play in a theater is that we, the actors, do not know what is going to happen. It is as though the lines that we are to speak only come into our heads the moment before we are to say them, and the actions that we are to perform only occur to us as we are performing them. Except for some exceptional individuals with extraordinary psychic powers, this is the case for every human being on Earth. The only difference is in how the play of life is understood, because it is understanding that determines how the play is experienced. From this point of view there are three types of individuals: ”
“1. The person without spiritual aspiration who lives a worldly life. Such a person has no understanding of the true situation and assumes that he or she is fully responsible, is doing everything, and has free will. ”
“2. The spiritual aspirant or seeker. The aspirant may know or suspect the true situation and have some level of acceptance of it. This person is in the uncomfortable position of knowing that he or she cannot do anything, while having to act as though fully responsible.”
“3. The realized or enlightened being. THIS INDIVIDUAL HAS FULL UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRUE SITUATION AND HAS SURRENDERED TO IT. He or she acts in life with the understanding that it is a divine play and so does not take it too seriously.”
“FROM THESE CATEGORIES, WE SEE THAT IN NO CASE, IS THERE GENUINE FREE WILL FOR HUMAN BEINGS. Only God the Absolute has free will. However, because consciousness is God and consciousness is our true nature, we are free to the extent that we know ourselves and accept ourselves as that consciousness. In practical terms, this means that we are free when we remember ourselves as pure consciousness. We are free to the extent that we can separate ourselves from the limitations of the mind.”
“THE ORDINARY IDEA THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO DO WHATEVER ONE WANTS IS AN ILLUSION, BASED ON THE FALSE ASSUMPTION OF SEPARATE INDIVIDUALITY. There is nobody there. How can an imaginary entity have anything other than imaginary will? In fact, all actions are happening as a result of previous actions, accord ing to the law of cause and effect. Human beings are so accustomed to believing that they are individuals, and human society is so completely bound up with that false assumption, that it is not possible for them even to think without relating that thought to the imaginary center called ―I.”
“The assumption that there is free will and that ―I am doing, arises out of this false notion of individuality .The difference between the worldly person and the spiritual aspirant is in the conscious knowledge of one’s own limitations. As long as the imaginary entity is there, that is, as long as there is ignorance and as long as we take ourselves to be individuals, the entity that we take ourselves to be does have imaginary free will.”
” It is this imaginary free will that is appealed to by spiritual teachers who encourage spiritual seekers to practice disciplines, abide by moral strictures, study various texts, or adopt other practices to purify the body and the mind in preparation for enlightenment. As long as we consider ourselves to be separate individuals, we must make efforts along these lines. We are attracted to practices and disciplines because we feel that we can gain something from them. It is precisely because we do not yet have the understanding that the realized person has, which is that we are already ourselves and that there is truly nothing to be gained, nothing to be acquired, and nothing to be accomplished, that we must exert ourselves to gain that understanding. And for this understanding, spiritual practice is absolutely necessary.”
Need I say anything more ? I rest my cae, and will go to sleep now, before the “Divine Will” punish me for blasphemy. 🙂