A radical new view of the upper Scientology levels; OK here goes…

With reference to my previous article titled “A radical new view of the upper Scientology levels”, and with the recent “cat-out-of-the-bag” in a comment section of this blog, I have decided to drop the bomb.

I could have made this a short story or included anecdotes and fluff in order to make it all more interesting. Instead I go for the straight-to-the-point-approach for the sake of brevity, letting your comments do the rest.

  • If the theory behind the OT levels as laid out by LRH is true, then we would have a large number of beings turning up for auditing that were ready to run a very different process than the ordinary Bridge (as covered in OT VI material). But we do not see that. Except for some loose rumors, not one single being has been verified as having showed up out of the estimated more than 200 million. This is a discrepancy like no other.
  • I am often very conscious when I dream, and I find myself creating scenery and people in order to create a game when I sleep. I create people that I then let run on their own, and from that point on, they are uncontrollable by me in order to make the game real.
  • The reactive mind is a collection of stuck viewpoints (engrams) that remain outside of a person’s control until inspected thoroughly. What if there were old, forgotten analytical viewpoints similar to the people of my dreams? Viewpoints that I created and that I no longer take responsibility for and when I through auditing do take responsibility for them, I would conclude that the one creating them was “ME”.
  • If the above is the actuality, then one could dispense with all the confidentiality or sci-fi and treat the Bridge as a continuous handling of reactive and analytical viewpoints in order for the person to “collect himself” and “become whole”. The processes would be just the same, but the whole perspective would be dramatically different. It would make the whole Bridge less mystical or intriguing, less controversial or sexy. But it would also make the whole Bridge an exercise in 100% Responsibility.

There are more reasons why I believe this to be a more factual description of what is really going on when doing the Scientology OT levels, but this should suffice to start the discussion.

Note: The readers’ comments contain confidential upper level Scientology material. If you believe that any such material can hurt you (which may be a self-fulfilling prophecy, a sort of reverse placebo), then do not read the comments to this blog post.

1,255 thoughts on “A radical new view of the upper Scientology levels; OK here goes…

      1. Okay, got it. Just one thing, is that figure of 200 million also beyond what would suffice for now, or am I just being dense about what it relates to?

          1. I guess the figure of 200 million refers to the estimate by LRH himself related to a “large number of beings turning up for auditing.” Duh?

            This is an intriguing post, as expected!

          2. Oh, okay. Just thought maybe some “everybody knows” datum might have gone over my head. Thanks.

      2. I liked the way you state this, Geir. I’d like to add that to me it seems that the ‘fixed ideas’ or ‘considerations’ are linked to associated ‘identities’. Essentially I see it as a ‘valence’ which is associated with the manifestation of the idea. Hence the concept of auditing ‘personalities’ associated with ‘fixed ideas’ seems a natural one to me, whether the individual views these ‘personalities’ as ‘reflective fragments’ or ‘separate entities’, or some other projected structure of mind.

  1. I have certificarts for various Scientology things. Particularly those from Clear up, I consider valueless. I do not think I have the states I am certified for, which are absolutes, which I do not understand as relevant to how I experience daily life. “A collection of stuck viewpoints” descibes very well the things holding me back in life (they include things that I think did not form under pain or unconsciousness). Over the last ten or so years I have been slowly sorting them out, with good results, and using very simple Scientology principles.

    I am not on any public bridge, I am on a private path, meant for me and my life.

    I hope you see that I am in agreement with Geir. I’d be happy to see people following their own goals. On a private path.

    Well done, Geir I am contributing to (rather than just applauding) your well written Blog above.

    All best wishess,

    Ant

    1. Thanks Ant. You are the grand old man and I admire you for what you have done and for what you continue to do. The IVY e-mail list is excellent.

  2. I always thought I was a figment of someone’s imagination and I have known people that I thought were mine. 😛

  3. Hat … off.

    How did you develop you ability to direct your lucid dreams? Was this an organic process that grew naturally over time, or one you chose to learn?

  4. Cool! Richard Feinman could do this to some extent.

    Dr. Robert Thurman in a discussion he made regarding his translation of “The Tibetan Book of The Dead” states that being aware in dream states as a vital practice. Tibetan Meditation adepts seem to claim it is an attainable ability.

  5. Good luck! Here is the talk referenced above. It’s on iTunes.

    “Liberation Upon Hearing in the Between – Living with the Tibetan Book of the Dead” by Robert Thurman, Phd.

  6. I’ve thought about this quite a bit, my wife, an OT VII completion has since decided it was all bunk. I myself think there is some truth to the model, please don’t read that by that I mean I think it’s a valid way to OT or even a valid therapy, as laid out in the CofS but I do believe we are surrounded by life and it may be several different classes of life too and not all under LRH’s single designation. I liked the Knowledgism view of them as spiritual team mates rather than an abberative and necessarily counter productive appendage.

    Maybe we did create those viewpoints, or a portion of them. It’s an interesting thought.

  7. I find your explanation much more palatable for the simple reason that it aligns with my own basic postulates and those of early Scientology texts. The “standard” theory is in conflict with these same postulates.

  8. OT VI is NOTs. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that it is basically addressing DUB-IN.

    It is handling the affects of running dub-ins as if they are actual incidents from one’s past. Such dub-ins (lie factory), of course, cannot be run out with normal Dianetic procedure.

    .

  9. NOTs was developed from sessions given to a very sick Hubbard by David Mayo. Seems like Mayo realized that Hubbard, in his own auditing, was dubbing-in heavily. Mayo, then, had to figure out how to handle that situation.

    The above is my supposition from what I have read. It may not be accurate at all.

    .

  10. Geir, I think your observations nicely fits with what Mike Goldstein wrote about that matter in his ‘Life after the CoS’ series, particularly with chapter 18-‘Entities’ , scenario #1.

  11. I agree with you on this, Geir. The Upper Levels are simply a path. They are not THE path. They may be beneficial path for you, or they may not. No need for all the secrecy around it.

    Possibly the cloaking and mystique happened in order to avoid public ridicule, but that horse has long since bolted the stable, so may as well open the doors. Similar material by Aleister Crowley, Alice Bailey, and other occultists is freely available out there for people to explore if they want to.

    Actually, this material is also out there, so in the end, it is all much ado about nothing. (Although I do understand that you are speaking to people who still feel the material should be confidential).

    🙂

    Regards,
    Kim

  12. Re stuck viewpoints:
    The OT levels 9-16 as developped by CBR and as delivered in Ron’s Org take care of exactly those (and some related stuff). So you are not the only one thinking of these “created viewpoints”. BTW, LRH mentioned them here and there, just not as a thing to audit.

    1. And this I know. But the CBR bridge still clouds the OT III case in the same unnecessary mystery whereas I propose to look at it simply and only as one’s own past and forgotten viewpoints. Confidentiality dismissed.

      1. I think there should be an OT1, that gets the person to notice the entity case, then NOTS, then a form of OT8 that fully reveals the role of the person in that entity case, then the old OT levels materials that actually drill “operating”.

        Problem is that there is something to the OT3 materials, there is embedded cultural (in a spiritual sense) material, that needs to be dealt with. There needs to be that realization that something happened to us, some common thing that we are all dramatizing. OT3 give a being a good look at the common dramatization, and helps to move one out of it to the point that NOTS can run. And OT2 sets him up to run 3..

        The mysticism is a useful tool, an acceptable context for understanding FROM THE POINT THE PERSON IS AT THEN. Of course it may seem a bit disingenious in retrospect.

        I dont think to many people are up to being fully responsible, or able to “look at it simply and only as one’s own past and forgotten viewpoints.”

        Perhaps the solution is a more thorough lower bridge? And a requirement that the person do BOTH SIDES!!!

        1. LRH wrote an advice in the 80’s suggesting people go straight from OT II to NOTs.

          Not thinking people are up to taking responsibility is a wild invalidation of anyone. I believe anyone is up to taking responsibility, albeit on a gradient.

          As for the rest: I don’t believe the mythos behind OT III is true or real. I think it all handles old stuck viewpoints, and that’s all there is to it.

          1. I didn’t mean to invalidate all of humanity! 🙂

            Just point out that what seems obvious to us, is out reality to others.

            An “acceptable reality” is workable.

            And I don’t mean to invalidate you either, in your search for a simpler, more direct, more true path.

            I have a tendency to reactively defend scientology.

            But Ron did say that at the end of the bridge, we would have to run out scientology!

          2. Dave Adams,

            Your comments about “acceptable reality” and the need for eventually “running out Scientology” reminded me of a couple other points that would fit in here. (I too tend to want to defend Scientology – at least we’re aware of it.:))

            One point was LRH talking somewhere about how he had to complicate things a good bit for them to be acceptable – that people just won’t “buy” something that’s simple. (Paraphrased as well as I can recall.)

            And the other was something like, if you told someone on Saturn that there existed a planet where you had to SELL people their freedom, they wouldn’t believe that such a planet could exist – but it does, and you’re on it.

          3. Geir, just being devil’s advocate for the time being. Your viewpoint is appealing and I’m still listening…

          4. You’re right, Geir, hardly anyone on that Bridge. But can we be sure this (your OP) is the Why? There are other possibilities, having to do with corruption of tech and with management.

            Don’t get me wrong, I love the notions of simplicity and TRUTH. But what about LRH’s points that acceptable reality and complexity are needed in order to sell freedom – sexy does seem to be what SELLS (everywhere you look, in fact). So, LRH’s approach rings of truth too, workable level of. And, as Dave noted above, there is the eventual remedy of running out Scientology.

            Or do you basically think “the ends don’t justify the means,” as the means have ultimate bad repercussions not easily remedied – and what would those be?

            1. The major rap that Scientology gets in the media and among the general public is the sci-fi of the OT levels.

              And, as I say in my OP, the evidence points against LRH’s description of what is really going on.

              Selling a lie to get people to buy the truth? Seriously.

        2. I know of three people, myself included who happened to not have been anywhere near this planet when the OT III incident took place. I will say that all three of us have very different cases that run very quickly, often too quickly for the usual tech lineup. For instance, one of the three went clear clay-demoing the Axioms of Scn, and the Church was never able to recognize that.

          Personally, I have always been able to as-is quicker than most auditors will recognize.

          All the differences I have seen make me think there is Something to the OT III incident. Just what, I’m not exactly sure…

          1. It could be that something similair to the OT III incident happened at another time and another place, but it has nothing to do with OT-auditing or NOTS. Perhaps Hubbard first discovered the auditing techniques and realized it worked and after that tried to figure out why it worked. Perhaps then he himself or another person in session got up something similair to the OT III incident and Hubbard thought that was the answer. Then he filled in some of the blanks to make it more complete…

            I haven’t done OT-auditing but I sure know it works, having experienced clean OT-space surrounded by some OT VII’s. It doesn’t seem to work for everybody though. Perhaps it requires a thetan with enough awareness, perhaps the auditing isn’t applicable to every case, there could be a number of reasons.

            I often get the feeling Hubbard has major points that he is right about and that works, but that he sometimes “fill in the blanks” with made-up stuff.

          2. It could also be that Hubbard really believed in the OT III incident since he wrote a screenplay about it and wanted it up in the cinemas totally contrary to his belief of confidentiality. I get the feeling he wanted to restimulate some people or make them aware of our history.

            So I have also some vague feeling that the OT III incident could have happened somewhere and sometime in a similair fashion since Hubbard seemed to be so stubborn about it.

          3. As i understand it, incident ll didn’t happened to us (it happened 2 the Entities).Ron talk about (in a lecture “Theta-lines”) that we entered Earth at different times,some very recent..

  13. Yes, but this is not a particularly radical new viewpoint.

    I haven’t done “8” like you but I have always thought that the ep of that would be the realization that much of the entity case was mock ups as vehicles for engrams, valences, or some such.

    Here is a thought, individual “spirit” is simply a bit of the universal pool of “stuff” that has decided to individuate. And this individuated bit has had bits individuate from it. Auditing can de-individuate those bits tied up in engrams and such and return “the stuff” to the higher level/closer to the pool of stuff.

    Am I making any sense?

    In another way of thinking about it is “”God lives within me …..as me”.

    You are made up of stuff from the common pool of “stuff”, but consider yourself to be separate. Axioms and all…

    Buddhist call this kind of ego, attachment to the world of form.

    Its just a thought, a consideration, the game!

    1. Good input.

      Now treating any case as one’s own creations and responsibility would dispense with the mysticism and leave it to the person to take his/her own path in the understanding of all this.

      1. Yes well that is the key “problem” (point/counterpoint, dichotomy). You want to stay in the game, but fix it up a bit.

        The urge to survive, to maintain a considered identity and package of experiences separate from others, yet not get totally lost in it.

        I dont think your ideas in any way invalidate upper levels.

        The upper levels are a way of dealing with it, without completely unmocking it so radically that the game is gone.

        Consider NOTS, one addresses an apparent reality, the “entities” cease to impinge. It works. Do you have to understand how and why for it to work? No. Is it useful to maintain the mockups that form the context in which it works? Yes.

        Scientology is a series of very useful lies. Methods of changing the context, while still operating in that same context. The tech works even though it uses the lies of its bigger context for its structure.

        Question is do you want to unmock the whole game and vanish in a moment of sublime realization?

        Or stay and play!!

        🙂

        1. I want to research what works in the direction of more truth. I find the original explanations by LRH unworkable. I know the processes work, and I now think I know why. As I said, this is far less sexy than space opera and such – but it does explain a few things that the original mythos didn’t and it dispenses with the apparent need/want for confidentiality. At the same time it gives the processes more value methinks.

          1. Truth is over rated. Its the coincidence of consideration. Not something objective, outside the realm of thought.

            Make all the truth you want. Its a fun game!

            But we got trapped in it by believing it.

            🙂

      2. But thats just the point. The “mysticism” is simple contextual aids. Scientology was created to use the context we are in.

        You looking back down at it see it as “less than fully true”. But so what. It works.

        Would you have the man off the street just be R-factored that its all consideration? No. You have to work within the “lie” he is living.

        Whats the first process on the bridge? Objectives. Making someone mock up walls, over theres, books, bottles, space, time. Its not an intellectual exercise, its “tricks” to move a consideration creator out of the creation/context they are in.

        Whats the ep of NOTS? The realization that one can be or is at cause point over a certain phenomenon. Is that the whole truth!? Certainly not. But it is movement in the right direction.

        I seem to be solidly in favor of lies, dont I?

        🙂

        1. “You looking back down at it see it as “less than fully true”. But so what. It works.”

          I don’t buy that. Masking the truth by introducing (unworkable) lies is no way to go about this.

          And the mythos and the mysticism does Not work. Witness the reaction it gets on the Net. It is an indication of unworkability. I would go for Occam’s razor here. Simple is beautiful. No need for the sci-fi. KISS.

    2. Dave,you are making total sense 2 me:)
      I think that the “problem” with NOTS/OT lll is that it is “the body’s case” and every one think it is something they was part of. Then what is such an entity?! I don’t think that matters,it is Theta performing a function and by the way,the whole MEST universe is built that way.(not only those body’s,in my humble opinion).Tr 8 is a hint at this (putting thoughts in to that ashtray;))

    1. Right. This opens the door to explain a wide variety of situations that I couldn’t quite explain before without conjuring all sorts of mystical explanatory vias.

    2. Mike likes to use this as a debunker of dianetics/scientology, but if you read DMSMH is clearly says that the pain can be “spiritual”. There doesnt need to be physical pain for an incident to be engramic.

      I went round and round with him on this..

      Pain is something contra survival. Pleasure is some thing that aids survival.

      Funny how much was in that book in terms of fundamental principles.

      Funny how the simple stuff gets made into rules.

      🙂

      1. I’m not sure if confusion should be classified as spiritual pain. But I wonder how come that that incident wouldn’t be run out through, like, self-analysis or “recall a time” or a similar simple process.

        1. Think of confusion as non survival. A “suppressor” as DMSMH terms it.

          DMSMH defines pain as something non survival. Survival is pleasure.

          The problem with that example is that it is the experience of one person and can not be used to deductively reason to a general rule. Mike tries though.

          Swings and girls can really mess a guy up!

          1. I don’t think so. Pain is a punishment for not surviving, pleasure for surviving. Someone must work very hard to make his living. It’s pro survival, but not a pleasure at all.

            I look at confusion as a cause for possible pain, but not pain itself. Drunk driver can run someone over, however neither him nor his action is pain. But pain will probably be outcome on the part of both the driver and the victim.

            So I think confusion wasn’t really interpreted as pain in old Dianetics.

          2. I would suggest you re read the book. (“OLD” Dianetics ) It does not interpret confusion as pain, I did.

            But it is an idea consistent with DMSMH. Many people seem to forget that emotional pain can be the anchor of an engram rather than physical pain.

            Would not confusion, a negative emotion, be emotionally painful? And embedded with the other elements of an engram, the recording of ALL the perceptions, be a legitimate “hook” to audit?

            And thus the boy (in the idenics example) on the swing set who sees the girl looking at him and feeling confused, has an engram. An engram with out physical pain, but one none the less.

            But then engram, bank, etc are just models to understand concepts. Not the thing the concept describes.

            🙂

  14. I’m not an expert, but I think the new trend is veeeery far from Freud’s old Dianetics…

  15. https://isene.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/a-radical-new-view-of-the-upper-scientology-levels-ok-here-goes/#comment-3939

    KHTK takes a similar view of entities as Idenics does. Entities are part of a created explanation for the phenomenon of what happens when one starts to forage through the mind instead of letting it unstack itself through the process of looking.

    Foraging the mind leads to all kinds of trouble. Overrun is the most obvious outcome, but one can also drive oneself mad too. Looking per KHTK is the safest avenue. Entities simply provide a via to look at one’s own case. Direct looking as in KHTK is much better, and faster in the long run.

    KHTK is free and can be done by oneself without the need for devices, such as, E-meter.

    KHTK 12: Comments on Looking

    .

  16. https://isene.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/a-radical-new-view-of-the-upper-scientology-levels-ok-here-goes/#comment-3965

    “Entity case” is an alter-ised expression of DUB-IN. In my opinion, there is no entity case. there is only dub-in and you cannot run dub-in the normal way. The only way you can get rid of dub-in is by recognizing its exact nature for what it is. In the absence of that recognition, one simply encounters entitites after entities ad infinitum.

    .

      1. What brings progress is simply looking (without speculating) and recognizing exactly whatever is there.

        I cannot look for you, nor can you look for me. Besides I am looking at things that are very different from what you are looking at at the moment.

        So, just ignore what I am saying. I am saying it just for the sake of saying it and nothing more. It may or may not hit any mark.

        .

        1. And I find your speculations on the Unknowable to be a red herring in the progress of philosophy, that’s all.

          More research to be done, I say.

          1. One cannot speculate on unknowable. All speculations are because of unknowable.

            If there is a speculation then there also must be something unknown or just unknowable.

            .

            1. As I said, that is all fine. But where does considering come into play? As considering is different than consideration.

            1. Energy is different from mass in a whole different way than considering is different from consideration.

    1. Looks a bit like a straw man 😉 I wasn’t referring to Dn or Scn. Workable is what evidently gives progress in the eyes of the beholder.

      1. What I said was in response to Dave Adam’s defense of Scientology as “workable.” I wasn’t thinking of the viewpoint you hold.

        .

    1. Not really so, but you seem to refuse to acknowledge that your theory is in need of fixing as it does not predict what is visible to one and all – the CONSIDERING. A theory that does not even predict what is currently obvious is less than valuable.

      1. My basic theory is described in these words: “This unknowable would then be nothing more than a carrot to help uncover the considerations, which may be hidden deep in our consciousness. That is more than wonderful.” and that “All our knowledge is made up of considerations.” Either these two datum are incorrect, or the conclusions derived from them are incorrect. Here is an example of how I used these datum yesterday:

        In NOTs Series #1, the following statement is made:“When you talk about telepathy, there is a proximity factor. When a thetan is pressed straight up against another thetan very tight, total tactile communication, you get this type of mental transmission.” This appeared to me quite mysterious and didn’t make sense to me. I played around with it for a few minutes.

        I looked at the considerations, which underlie the term “thetan.” THETA was initially used by Hubbard as an unknown in the “equation of life.” Well that makes sense. Then what considerations got added to it later? The consideration of individuality was introduced and THETA was changed into thetan. OK. What underlies the consideration of individuality? Well, that would be a specific beingness. What is beingness? It is “existingness” with certain specific characteristics. OK, that seems to sum up as a viewpoint from which those characteristics are viewed and considered specific. Would that mean that beingness and the viewpoint from which that beingness is being viewed are one and the same? It would appear so because there is nothing else there.

        Now we go back to the statement in NOTs Series #1. It appears to be saying that when two viewpoints are very, very close to each other they would know the thoughts of each other. That seems to make more sense compared to the original statement as the mystery is now taken out. In fact, it seems to be quite obvious.

        Here, the consideration of telepathy presented me with a sense of mystery (unknowable). I was curious to look into that mystery, which was presented to me in the form of certain considerations. I broke each of those considerations down into more basic considerations, and recombined them to resolve that mystery by making them consistent with my existing considerations. It was a process of simplification. In that simplification were discoveries for me.

        May be this is what is meant by making the concept your own in Study Tech (my most favorite part of Scientology).

        Anyway, I accepted defeat in not being able to get across how I view unknowable. It is basically a carrot that leads us toward greater simplification of considerations.

        .

    2. Dont you dare! your views are fantastic. One needs to peal lot of the basic before one can see there is a hidden key which can unlock the Universe. And what a Universe that is!.

  17. “I create people that I then let run on their own, and from that point on, they are uncontrollable by me in order to make the game real.”

    I get that what you are saying in the above is that in your dream you are compartmenting off a portion of your own mind (or yourself), which now seems to have – or be – a mind of its own. As it is “running on its own” and is “uncontrollable,” is it possible that it could step out of the dream, just as you do?

    This might be off on too much of a tangent here, but it relates to the discussion on your earlier thread, having to do with viewpoints “begetting” other viewpoints. (Hope it isn’t too audacious!)

      1. Was that just a gracious ack for an off-the-wall question, or should I give you a pass on your no-answer drill? 🙂 If the latter, I’ll go for a pass on my TR 3! I’m curious what you make of my speculations…

        1. Well, to answer the question – I guess I could carry the viewpoint around when I wake up. But it would be eternally attached to me.

          1. Okay, if it’s strictly “attached,” that answers it. Operating as another person separate from you in your dream seemed different, but I guess it’s more like a circuit. Thanks!

  18. On your last point, “…..and treat the Bridge as a continuous handling of reactive and analytical viewpoints in order for the person to “collect himself” and “become whole”;

    oddly enough, since I first started learning of Scientology in the late 1960s-early 1970s, that what I have always thought Scientology is about.

    A continuous work of increasing awareness. Or as Freud put it, a process of “making the unconscious, conscious.”

    “When did it ever become something else?” – I ask naively I guess, never having done much of the Bridge,and therefore not the upper levels at all….

    I guess I have always viewed it and focused on it being a method, rather than – what? A collection of specific incidents to be addressed. I guess that’s what the ‘upper Bridge’ became? One size fits all?

    That’s not to say those specific incidents don’t exist in some or many cases, but it seems ‘listing’ to check whether any particular one ‘reads’ on any particular case at any particular time would be the way to go, utilizing the principle of ‘the mind’s protection’.

    Maybe this isn’t the thread for me to post in, not having done any of those levels…..? But I see a whole lot more in Scientology than HoM.

  19. Great post, Geir!
    Continue your research, you are doing well.

    I have seen some other poeple also hinting at this area (as how we create this game and create valences for others).
    And this is area that needs more research.

    I dislike confidentiality. It is actually confidentiality that harms people, not the OT data.

    LRH descriptions of Incident 1 and Incident 2 are very poor and misleading. I believe that they happened, but we have little amount of data about them.

    And i think that only a small percentage of people here on earth actually went through Incident 2, most of us we came later to this planet.

    I think that handling and grinding entities is unimportant and misleading.

    A better and simpler theories and processes should be developed.

  20. Entities have much history pre scio and post modern scio. We can of course invalidate the *narrative* of entities as explained by LRH in scio and look at it more basically, more philosophically i.e. stuck/forgotten viewpoints.

    I think both the philosophical aspect is true at a certain reality level and so is the narrative aspect of it from a certain reality level as well.

    You could also say that things like NOTs are a creative process, differentiating theta (theta beings) from MEST (body). Or even more basic than this, creating theta beings to then differentiate from MEST body. This also mimics/duplicates the axiom about theta as solver vs theta as problem (MEST).

    This has some more information and wider context for entities as well: http://www.arelena.com/content_influences.html

    I think the main question though is this: is there a difference in a *viewpoint* (as per the factors) and a *thetan*? It’s true that a being takes a physical viewpoint in the MEST universe (perhaps more than one..!), but does that mean it IS that viewpoint, essentially/fundamentally?

    Does the viewpoint exist without the being?

    1. Thank you Infinity!
      The most helpful comment and link I have ever read on this subject!

    2. Re. Infinity’s “main question”: The “point” of the viewpont, the point from which things are viewed, is the being, you.

  21. Fascinating post Geir

    When talking of Identities, it reminded me of Trey Lotz’s ‘About the L’s’ videos he did here (the second of the 3 part series is particularly good):

    This got me looking at my earlier auditing from the beginnings of the bridge and into the OT levels, as did this post.

    If I look at what intrigued me about some path to greater enlightenment, this yearning has always been with me or a part of me. I can’t say that I came up to a ‘need of change’, it just always was with me.

    It appears to me that it is no coincidence that we all ended up looking for a ‘path’, nor is it coincidence that we ended up where we are, or for that matter, in Scientology.

    Going back to identities: If one, as he/she moves thru life/lives, adopts different identities to handle a situation, to be more acceptable, to gain agreement, to be able to be, or as a solution to a problem or confusion; one does this as Cause at that point in time.

    Whether one adopts or creates an identity to adapt to a non-threatening situation, or, as a solution to a threat or problem, he/she is adding characteristics or qualities to oneself or nullifying characteristics that one natively has.

    To me, one can remain in control of some of these identities and dispense with them when they no longer serve the purpose or the game at a later time, or, one goes Effect of his own creation and lives with his ‘new beingness’.

    As time goes on, all manner of identities and altered identities get layered on top of one another. It seems that bits of energy/theta get trapped or assigned to watch situations within these identities similar to an early warning system – a certain type of incident pops up and one or many of these identities go into action to preserve oneself and ‘be a solution’ for the apparent threat.

    It seems that as these identities peel off in auditing, where one realizes what confusion prompted him to create/consider that identity in the first place, why he thought it would work (essentially getting time, place, form & event); one realizes that many of these identities are no longer workable ‘solutions’, and operating under their influence actually hampers one’s ability to see what is in front of him.

    These solution-identities have become so ‘native’ to him over the eons that he does not realize that they are his own creations and that they are still trying to solve a long-gone problem.

    The amount of energy and theta he has imbued into these millions of identities one has spread over the track is tremendous. Just consider the amount of energy expended to keep all these identities ready for action, let alone the ones that are continually created.

    It seems to me that the ‘high’ or expansiveness one feels when as-ising/realizing the considerations and computations connected with these identities is really the regaining of bits of himself trapped within these identities … they do after all have to continue to be created or set up on automatic so they activate in certain circumstances.

    It seems to me that the game we are in is similar to the old King’s Quest computer games of the ’80s.It is a labyrinth. In those games you gathered and used objects in an exact sequence to open a hitherto unseen part of the game. In my case, I am seeking these ‘keys’ to unlock and regain what I once agreed to not-is.

    It is a frustrating game at times, but what an adventure!

    And once we solve it, no doubt we’ll look and say … “Ahh, that was too easy. Now, let’s create something REALLY difficult.” 🙂

      1. … uh-oh …

        Okay Geir, I’ll bite. How does it easily explain schizophrenia and what exactly does that mean?

          1. Are you stating that this major mental illness is a result of a spiritual problem (split off viewpoints)? If so, then the next position from such a claim would be one of the following:

            1. The mental illness can be fixed by repairing the split off viewpoints.
            2. The mental illness cannot be fixed by repairing split off viewpoints and requires other methods for repair.
            3. The mental illness may or may not be repaired by repairing the split off viewpoints.
            4. ((INSERT YOUR OWN ANSWER))

            Are you really saying, that I should feel free to tell this to a dear friend of mine from college who almost shot his mother’s face off with a sawed off shotgun because he believed she was a spy from Opus Dei out to kill his King James Bible loving butt?

            My suggestion? I suggest you spin this as a “spiritual Schitzophrenia” that crosses lifetimes and recommend any real-world Schitzophrenic to hug his medicine bottle to his chest like it is the only chance for him to survive! Here is a suggested mantra for such a one…

            “There’s no love like Science…”
            “There’s no love like Science…”
            “There’s no love like Science…”

            1. I am not advocating a silver bullet for Schitzophrenia, but a proposal on how some cases may be understood. A proposal for research, if you may.

          2. “Split-off viewpoints rather than separate entities.”

            Yes.

            The demons one is possessed by, are ultimately of one’s own creation. Although to the extent ‘implanting’ exists, one has had a LOT of encouragement in creating them.

            It is an alternative look at schizophrenia, demonic possession, multiple personality, all that good stuff.

            The disowned viewpoints, for all practical purposes, might as well be separate entities at times. That is how they seem.

            What I find fascinating is that it is all covered in the very first published book, DMSMH. There they are called ‘circuits’. LRon talks about ‘valence walls’ that keep the different aspects separate.

            And it’s referenced in teachings going back thousands of years, but there hasn’t been a ‘unified(agreed upon) theory’ about them.

            See Gurdjieff/Ouspensky’s material on the fragmentednature of thehuman personality, the existence of ‘false I’s’ and ‘many I’s’ in each person. See Buddhist materials, early psychoanalytic materials, Georg Groddeck, RD Laing, etc etc.

            Not sure your point, Bunkai. You seem to work at masking your meaning, at saying what you’re saying without saying it. Or perhaps you sense a meaning within yourself and struggling to bring it to light?

            Which is it?

            There can be a long road between theory and application.

            There is a reason why a person doesn’t begin their auditing(therapeutic program) with OT7 or OT3 or even the Clearing course.

            One must learn to crawl before walking, and learn to walk before one runs. Each person must start where he can start, and not higher.

            Start by studying the basic concepts of existing teachings, and be mindful. Make some attempt to understand the evolution of theories

            The sky is not falling, hysteria is not yet called for. If you have some ideas about schizophrenia, why not share them?

  22. Geir, I do believe you are onto something. I haven’t done NOTS, but your theory handily explains an anomaly I encountered on OT III. And as you said, it simplifies and aligns the OT levels with the rest of Scientology and Dianetics. Occam’s razor is still the sharpest blade around.

  23. I’ve been putting some attention on lucid dreaming and had a success this morning. I was in my own dream as myself and momentarily aware of this. I added 1 plus 2 and got 3. Really. For me this was startling enough for me to wake and lay in bed thinking about the experience.

    The significance is that my own valence of myself cannot calculate. So for me, I had shown myself that I was awake in my own dream and operating within the dream.

  24. Geir says: “I am often very conscious when I dream, and I find myself creating scenery and people in order to create a game when I sleep. I create people that I then let run on their own, and from that point on, they are uncontrollable by me in order to make the game real.”

    My observation is that this is pretty often stated by novelists about characters in their novels.

    .

    1. Yep Vinnie,I was going to post about this too. I recall reading that some novelists, screenwriters, and maybe playwrights have had the experience of starting to write only to have the characters take off and assume a ‘life of their own’, as well as introducing new characters and the work to some extent ‘writes itself’.

      All I recall Hubbard saying about dreams is that the mind assembles or tries to, unconfronted or ‘unknown’ incidents and tries to bring them to awareness. This makes sense, and it seesmtomethatworking with this content could be a form of ‘creative processing’ that can benefit a person.

      In fact, Carl Jung worked in this direction both for himself and with his psychoanalytic clients.

      He wrote a nice personal little autobiographical book titled “Memories, Dreams, and Reflections” in which he goes into this theme and the processes involved.

      One of Jung’s central theses was the idea of ‘the return of the repressed’, meaning that whatever is repressed or suppressed in a person is always struggling to return to his awareness, to restore balance and integrity to a person’s beingness.

      I think these kind of ideas are good complements to KHTK.

  25. This is a fascinating conversation thread for me. Over the years, I never could “believe” the incident 2 story, yet when I did the process, I found it beneficial. This created a continuous conflict within me. The thing I could do to enable me to continue was to put my “suspended disbelief” off to the side and not think about it.

    Not the way to spiritual freedom!

    I also always thought it quite an omission, that very little has been published/said by LRH on the subject of DREAMS. DREAMING is a fascinating phenomenon experienced by nearly everyone, yet completely ignored as you go up the bridge to Total Freedom.

    Just to clarify: Is it your idea that these stuck viewpoints are mostly created during dreaming or that they are created as needs for various identities arise in waking hours as well?

  26. Hi Isene,

    I enjoy reading your material. I had a few questions of which this is one (or two): How does, the so-called time-track fit into your unfolding model in regard to your statement:

    “stuck viewpoints (engrams) that remain outside of a person’s control until inspected thoroughly. What if there were old, forgotten analytical viewpoints similar to the people of my dreams? Viewpoints that I created and that I no longer take responsibility for and when I through auditing do take responsibility for them, I would conclude that the one creating them was “ME”.”

    If past-lives are taken into account as being valid, and if the mind is ever-capable of either recalling or imagining or mocking-up past engrams, what would prevent one from “auditing” out such previously created engrams, forever & ever & ever and a day?

    I mean, 75 million years is a lot of time and space to create engrams, by any name. Just one a year would be 75 million. Lol.

    I appreciate your thoughts on this if you think the question is worth a reply. It feels valid to me.

    Lamoore

    1. Past lives follows as a logical conclusion in my article On Will. And with that comes an enormous possible abandoned viewpoints. I believe it is possible to rise to the point where one would take responsibility for abandoned viewpoints In General and thereby blow that Case.

      1. Thanks Isene. I read your article ‘On Will’ in its entirety and found it to be quite interesting. I think your approach/take is akin to that of Dr. Amit Goswami with his body of work called Quantum Activism. Revolutionary in my book.

        Back to the question of the possibility of a shockingly vast number of ‘abandoned viewpoints'(perhaps millions, over any time track) being ‘taken responsibility for’, as a practical matter, or as a philosophically logistical matter (lol), how do you, or have you, reconciled this matter?

        I was unable to discern your resolution in the reading of your paper On Will.

        I see three possibilities at first glance.

        #1. Auditing takes forever.

        #2. Viewpoints are limited in essence and are only distinctive in terms of expression. Thus a realization of, or taking responsibility for, any single one, may dissolve the entirety of any multiplicity of the expressions of it.

        #3. I’m an idiot and your answer was clearly stated in your paper ‘On Will’.

        lamoore

        1. It is not #3 🙂

          I see the Being gradually increasing in responsibility and thereby being able to take responsibility for an ever increasing amount of viewpoints. It is accelerating.

          1. Very well. Thank you for your response Isene. Do you imagine it is possible for any one individual to take responsibility for an entire culture or an entire world?

            lamoore

            1. I don’t think you can take responsibility for my creations. That is why you don’t see OT abilities on display much.

          2. computer glitch (or my ignorance, lol).

            You wrote in a later post than this one that I can’t seem to comment on, or respond to:

            “I don’t think you can take responsibility for my creations. That is why you don’t see OT abilities on display much.”

            I would ask: Can I take responsibility for ‘my take’ on your creations?

            And if so, OT abilities on display would be meaningless.

            Save for my own.

            1. You can take responsibility for Your creations only. You can persuade me to take responsibility for mine. And thus you and I can see a cup of coffee disappear. But to make it disappear for any and all, then everybody need to agree.

  27. Wondering among the Stars
    Torch the curtains
    Flung windows open wide.
    And look far, look far beyond
    The darkness of the Earthly Night.
    I am here,
    You have found home
    The shimmering Light
    In the endless star studded Indigo Night.
    Now, in safety you can wonder,
    Wonder among the stars.
    You are here
    You are home.
    This is yours
    The endless space star studded Indigo Night.
    Cog.
    Sleep or not to sleep that is a question. Sleep as a spiritual being who do not have a body, considerations or agreements on that item?
    So sleep, what is?
    Big question.
    These concepts just do not feet into my reality. They, never have, never will and the same goes with the habit of eating.
    Over the years I have soloed on the subject of sleep, and all the related items connected with that concept in many different sessions and peeled off many different considerations with that my reality level have changed and I could dig into even deeper levels
    “Sleep” the subject is on elusive consideration, not only a consideration but on agreement to which every being on planet Earth agrees to therefore it is a collective, a group agreement.
    Sleep, we tend succumb to; we do that action after the dark.
    We dress the body in night dress, or in buff whatever.
    Slide the thing into, under covers, we create very comfortable, safe warm place a nest.
    The body tucked away safely the doors are locked the curtains drawn, the alarm activated on the house the alarm clock [heavy anchor point, it ticks [clock] like the heart and is set at the same rate in proximity with the bodies main organ, great connection, on implant in good working order] is set to call the person back if happen to wonder off in the dark [not many have the OT ability left, to do that] all is surrounded, protected by solid walls etc…
    My next view point, my reality is written as I seen it in recall a cognition about sleep.
    Here, I am home in the spiritual Universe where there are no solid bodies so seeing things, concepts from very different view point is easier.
    The reason the original [my view point only] for the so called “sleeping” where the item was born, originated from is very simple.
    All pictures which exits are and can only be mocked up in light to be existing to be seen, who could see them otherwise? One can mock up pictures in colour which the eyes can see but it has to be in light.
    [ We need little more depth here.]
    Let say my body’s mock up just sort of vogue, not solid mock up, it has all the features, colours it is a body. But comes the darkness which is when the light is covered [do forgive the explanation, we all know what is darkness is in considerations.] from the so called sun or the planets moves out of the path of light whichever.
    When that happens there is no light what happens to the body?
    What happens to that beautiful mock up?
    No longer there, it can’t be seen.
    The mock up is no longer visible.
    The spirits having-ness is gone. Good grief where the hell I have put that bloody thing again, looking around, who has stolen it! Again!
    It was mine!
    Oh Lord, I cry, my sobs echo across the sky’s. where is my body, it is lost!
    Or have I gone blind?
    New day arrives in a form of light the sun, but I don’t see my body, it is gone vanished in the darkness dissolved by the cruel hand of dark since it was not solid.
    And I did not have eyes!
    The light particles which the body was mocked up from dissolved scattered melted away they went back to the original the space where they were gathered from.
    Another fact is I was not really anchored to it, the body was just a mock up and now here I was who knows where[ no location in space so I could be billion light years away from the point where the body was mocked up.]
    And no body to be had.
    Just how many body mock ups I had to do and loose before the tough have come let’s make the thing solid, and let’s put it into a safe place and when the darkness comes it will not steal it away from me again as it has done that so many times before.
    If it is solid than the darkness when takes over floods my universe it won’t be able to destroy my fragile universe,
    My creations will not vanish in the thin space.
    So let’s make a strong box, a vault where no one can touch it.
    And when the light comes it will be there again.
    What a having-ness! The trill of it all!
    Of course I had to put on my identity tag, on the body, register the name, that I am the proper owner too, a name which becomes soli mine to prove that body belongs to me and in the morning “light” no others could claim that thing.
    But there is more.
    The eyes can see the items. In very different way as the free being see, who has no eyes but a perception seeing the muck up from every direction as it would be a holograph.
    In the day light the bodiless being can see in colour since the colours are tiny particles of light, the mock ups are put together from them but in the so called darkness we see only the vogue, misty out lines or a fluff of light, this see through misty things which can be seen are the tiny light particles which were the part of the mock up.
    Only the light particles has remained since in every mock up there is a life-force which is like crushed diamonds they can’t be destroyed they remain as misty form in the dark. The cognation given great amount of information on sleep, why the dreams etc…
    The nightmares were given to each being so they would not be moving away, off from the body and quietly sneak away in the dark un-noticed un-detected.
    But fear was implanted with scary monsters many different varieties, if you will move out into the dark, if you dare to leave your body the incredible monsters will get you. Bogy man!
    There are major reasons one dares not to leave the body at night.
    I welcome you
    To walk by my side
    And explore the wanders the magnificence of the endless space,
    The star studded blue Indigo Night.
    I am here, I am home,
    Here, I will remain forever among the stars.
    Here, I create, from dust of stars
    I weave the darkness into light,
    They are the wonders, the magic in the Indigo Night.

    Elizabeth Hamre. endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com

  28. I think that’s a very interesting viewpoint. Reminds me of why a thetan mocks up and that he never gives up.

    I do have 2 questions:
    You mentioned Ron wrote that one should go onto NOTs after OT II. That’s interesting. Where did he mention that?
    And would you say that one should do it that way?

    And 2. question:
    You said:
    There are more reasons why I believe this to be a more factual description of what is really going on when doing the Scientology OT levels,

    I’m curious. What are the othere reasons? 🙂

    1. #1: Marty told me he had read an LRH advice that contained this.

      #2:

      a) Because it puts the responsibility where it should be; at the being himself.
      b) Because it is then more easily understood how a Pre-OT can blow this case purely by inspection
      c) Because I have seen nowhere else that one could handle old, Not-Is’ed analytical viewpoints
      d) Because it explains better how I came to feel that I became more myself along the way

      1. I see. Thanks for your answer.
        I noticed also that a lot people drop their responsibility fully onto other persons regarding their case and future case program (often because they get a lot invalidated of what there level is or that they did not make it and have to redo it etc.). You said you would leave the processes as they are. Do you think it is also better to just audit oneself the way through after OT II (or basically already after Clear)?

        1. I only know that how I did the Bridge actually worked great for me. I have at this time no recommendations for doing it any other way.

          1. Okay.
            I do have another question. I guess you know the lecture Anatomy of Theta Body where he talks about the Joiner, basically incidents like a crash smashing thetans together or being stuck on the same picture with their attention. How do you see that in regards with your theory of old viewpoints?
            I think that one disattaches oneself from points where attention is still on. Couldn’t it be that one does this with others then, too? Maybe they do have also a body on their own or more than one. In the theta universe it would be all possible as they are all a static.

            1. I guess anything is possible. Except the regime that LRH explains as the background for the OT levels (because we WOULD see returnees… and we don’t).

  29. Thank you Isene.
    Each name when I first say it awakes a sound the original energy from which it was created.
    Your name has the sound of a running brook.
    As the water gently slide over the moss covered rocks.
    One can hear the drops of water falling the bobbling, the silvery brilliance shimmers as the rays of the sun touches the surface here and there.
    Now and then a dragonfly skims above, on wings of dust, sapphire blue
    We live in a beautiful universe where one sound, one word holds so much beauty.
    Thank you for posting my cog. Elizabeth Hamre.

  30. Geir: “Viewpoints that I created and that I no longer take responsibility for and when I through auditing do take responsibility for them, I would conclude that the one creating them was ‘ME’.”

    Chris: As I am as-is’ing various viewpoints and following these fractal branches back toward a tree root of “me.”
    1. Are you suggesting that there are many “trees?” (many-individuals doctrine).
    2. Or, are you suggesting that by the time I work my way back to “me” that “me” is existing as one of many branches of a single “tree?” (one-ness doctrine)
    3. Or, you don’t know? – either, neither, both?

    1. Chris, this kinda continues the discussion from the “Freedom” thread.

      I believe the question you ask, about one or many, is moot. Here’s why:

      Looking at it from the POV of how one experiences it, it is clear that this ‘ultimate’ state of consciousness can be experienced. Personal accounts abound. In India it has been called ‘samadhi’ for countless years.
      ‘God-realized’ individuals who have achieved ‘samadhi’ are walking around in India and elsewhere right now.

      Even Buddha, in his overall reticence about attributing any positive qualities to Nirvana, did say that it is a state of ‘bliss’.

      ‘Bliss Consciousness’ is THE big weenie in Indian systems. Just Google for it. It is the goal of Transcendental Meditation and on back through
      the Indian traditions.

      But one can also sense it in the Christian and Muslim traditions in which the Holy Spirit can descend and permeate and infuse one. In a word, the Gnostic experience. It has been a staple of Sufi ‘poetry’ for hundreds of years, with it’s metaphors of drunkenness, and ‘returning to the root of the root of yourself’.

      Try Googling for ‘Subud’, a modern Indonesian version.

      So why is it moot, to ask if one retains individuality, or merges in some way with a single primordial consciousness?

      Let’s look at Native State, which I believe is a cognate for that Bliss Consciousness.

      At Native State, for as long as one remains in it, there is only the awareness of ‘I AM’, or even just ‘AM’. Possibly just prior to AM, is simply ‘BLISS’.

      As soon as one drops even a hair down from that state, one then is aware that “I AM ________”. In order to be ‘aware of being aware’, one must have points to view – i.e. points to be aware of. This makes it possible to be ‘aware of being aware’.

      So ‘I-ness’ as a limited identity appears and disappears at some threshold up around that level of ‘Samadhi’, ‘Native State’, ‘Bliss Consciousness’ et al.

      That’s the ‘experiential’, existential level of it.

      There is no way to firmly establish whether one has joined some immense single ‘body of theta’, or one has simply risen up once again, shed the limited identity he was assuming by rising above NOT-KNOW and once again become aware of ‘himself’ as Native State.

      Because at that level, one is only aware of a very big ‘AM’.

      So I call the question ‘moot’, because either way, it FEELS the same.

      At that level of ‘pure infinite potential’, the question of ‘one or many’ doesn’t really
      apply.

      So the answer is YES.

      1. Thank you Valkov for taking the time to lay that out so succinctly. I do get what you mean, because my glimpses of, and experience of theta freedom is in excess of my reading about it. I will follow up on your suggested reading.

      1. From a viewpoint based on this universe, the answer of “who” is unknowable to me. Probably it is the wrong qustion to ask.

        .

        1. I will make a blog post that shows why that is not the wrong question. As I say – I see no forward progress in your thinking – I see no real contribution to the resolution of the questions surrounding creation or existence. So far, I have seen no actual results that betters any condition. I see only speculation.

            1. Nothing to be sorry about – you just have to acknowledge that there is a difference between speculating and speculation. Then you get out of the hamster wheel.

          1. sorry vinaire have to disagree. not all knowledge is from speculation (or creation, created knowledge). truth is a static and knowing that is an innate thing! look at the top of the chart of attitudes by lrh.

            the unknowable mystery of life itself is unfortantely formed from considerations of unknowable, it is the one of the ultimate NOT-IS-NESSES. its fine to NOT-KNOW but to believe in the UNKNOWABLE is a foolish avenue to go down. how does one recognize a truth (whether thats time form place event, consideration or a static,) how does one essentially as-is if one does not have the ability to know the truth?

            yes fake “knowledge” exists and is created by some beings for the sake continuing a game. true knowledge, such as the axioms, leads to attaining more truth and as-ising lies to get to more truth ending up at ultimate truth (static).

          2. Infinity, this is a very good post. I believe Vinaire is using the word “unknowable” while actually meaning something like an “unknown” existence which is, as he put it, the basis of consideration. And he is attempting to discover exactly what the nature of that existence is. But this word “unknowable” was just pointed out to him earlier today on another thread and he is still arguing.

            I may or may not have precisely duplicated what he is saying, but the main point is that several other posters have been trying to sort the whole thing out with him for quite some time now and it suddenly struck me that – Vinaire is exhibiting MU phenomena! But as I say, “unknowable” doesn’t seem to be the MU.

            @Vinaire – I trust you will not take this as inval, as you have been been a Word Clearer (me too) and know the score in this area. I could be wrong in my evaluation, of course, but NO inval is intended at all, I just think we should go for applying the tech on this because discussion will get nowhere if there is an MU. I live on the other side of the planet, but maybe there is someone near you who can help out. You may have a false datum or even a crashing MU and are suffering the effects thereof.

            Actually you might even be able to find an MU or false datum, yourself, as you know how to LOOK. 🙂

            ARC, Marildi

          3. “UNKNOWABLE is unknowable because it does not lie in the dimension of knowledge.

            Simple!”

            Unknowable dwells in a place called delusion and lies. Unknowable is a flimsy belief.

            The secret behind the mystery of all mysteries is that there is no mystery. The mystery is simply the suggestion/belief/consideration that there is a mystery! It’s elementary.

            Remember the story LRH tells about the monastary that is prophesied to collapse and that has a chamber guarding the secret of all mysteries? When a visitor goes to the monastary on the day of prophesied collapse, he gains easy access to the chamber within the chamber of mysteries because the monastary guards are so in grief about the pending doom of the collapse. And when he gets to the inner chamber holding the secret to the mystery and pulls the curtain back there is nothing there and the monastary collapses at that moment!

            Unknowable is really just that…all the chambers and the curtains and the myth of it is an elaborate construction! It’s one of those words actually that has so much untruth and NOT-IS implicit within it.

    1. It was not created overnight. It was not created over night. I give you an example.
      That will make the explanation a bit easier.
      Let’s go back where is no time, when there are no considerations yet. The I, the self, have no concept of self. The “ I am “ what I see and experience.
      All is just part of the universe as the cosmos being born. At this moment a comet flying through space I do not consider myself that I am a comet. But I am that comet since I experience that comet.
      Since there is no concept of time or space or any such the comets burn out falls apart, gone, here in space I view only space. Therefore I am space the experience. The evolving space the movement of particles.
      A star is born[ invisible particles collided , imploded and exploded at the same moment.
      Created the different energy which pulled in and changed the content of the surrounding space. Therefore movement was created. I observe=experience that action in that space , i becomes the experience. Of the star being born and as it continual, it’s cycle, still no concept of any time.
      Something happening [because of the created movements] in the cosmos new stronger energy formation I experience that it has pulled my attention away from the lesser energy. These actions continue.
      The cosmos continue evolve I can experience more at the same time. More action happens there is more randomity.
      I perceive more than one creation at the same moment now I have the choice which I want to experience in full. How long it will be till I make the decision which colour shoes I will put on today? Time is not a consideration. Nor is space of self or view. There is nothing more than on experience. A view which one have in the NOW. There is no past or future In other Universe where I write from which is not MEST. There are no viewpoints just experiences. No questions asked since none is needed. [ other universe you ask? Just different experience different view point.]

        1. Valcov, Do forgive of me giving you a wrong name. I am going blind, not me but the eyes developing cataracts. Past life postulate kicked in. I wanted to practise seeing without eyes way back in China I was on the Path that time and the same now, so i have pulled it in. I am havig fun with this seeing thing. But the eyes and what I see could be two different thing. Usualy is. The operation on the eyes will be in november, till than I will confront what ever so far I have not have about looking, eyes etc. By now I have very good ability regained, but looking with eyes is different. In China when had cataract I had totall ability to “see”. About me being here in Isenes Blog, he allows different view point to be aired. I wanted to write comment not only here but my comments were erased. I was told my reality level was way off, one blog owner said I was to enthusiastic. Of corse both are right, As Isene could add , long winded too. Silvia set up a blog for me, but I love to read other’s view points, considerations,which are not political. Thank you for the welcome!!

  31. The upper levels are an unworkable mess. Even the “lower bridge” needs a little reorganization, IMO, though you CAN get good results with it.

    IMO, any auditor worth his salt is not dependent on specific processes to get results. It’s all about the “comm cycle”. Grades processes give an excellent idea of what sorts of processes to run on a given type of charge, but a trained auditor who cannot create the process needed by his client based on his knowledge of theory is an auditor who needs retraining.

  32. A couple of general notes after posting a link to this blog post on ESMB;

    It never stops to amaze me how fanatically anti-OT-levels some people are who have never even done them.

    It seems some critics/Ex’es have invested so much time and effort into criticizing the tech and especially the OT levels that they cannot fathom how there could be anything right with it or how anyone could ever have gotten any gains from doing them. It simply ihave to be All Wrong. All gains have to be delusional. All of them. Or placebo. Or a lie. Every one of the reported wins. And it just cannot matter that anyone comes up with any new explanation for how comes the wins are there while doing away with what they originally criticized. Knee-jerk reaction is that anything that validates what they have spent those endless hours criticizing must be shot down immediately. It hovers between funny and pathetic.

    ESMB has gone so far south that I believe hanging around there will actually lower a persons intelligence and ability to think critically.

    1. I agree 🙂
      There is barely a normal discussion possible. It’s more a fight of being right and making other viewpoints that do not fit in their universe wrong. Reminds me of a lot other people (in and out of the system) – can’t have other viewpoints :))

    2. I also agree.

      The majority of ESMB posting are not worth the read. Like you say, there are many who fervently criticize the OT levels or one’s gains without any knowledge whatsoever.

      There are a couple of good threads there and some great posts, but the vast majority are a waste of time.

  33. I read that thread Geir, and I am thinking Marty’s latest post maybe relevant:

    http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/catching-radical-scientology-spies/

    There are some really good threads on that site, and some really bad ones, and some really good commenters as well as the type you are talking about.

    I predict in time some intelligent and positive comments will appear on your thread. In the meantime, those with heavy-duty ser-fac defenses have quickly gone on “Red Alert!”

    I occassionally visit ESMB myself, but often have to leave to get some fresh air. Lately what’s been refreshing there is that since the banning of a few people and the voluntary departure of Alanzo, pro-tech people post there quite a bit and they just ignore those types you mention, rather than getting into it with them.

    In the meantime I’m going to study that thread of Marty’s and see if I can spot the kind of ‘plants’ referred to in it.

    1. Valkov, would you clarify this part of your post (especially, whose thread): “I predict in time some intelligent and positive comments will appear on your thread. In the meantime, those with heavy-duty ser-fac defenses have quickly gone on “Red Alert!”

    2. It’s nothing short of astounding how several posters over at ESMB still didn’t understand the OP here – even after several explanations. It boggles the mind – at least mine.

  34. Geir, You said:
    “I guess anything is possible. Except the regime that LRH explains as the background for the OT levels (because we WOULD see returnees… and we don’t).”

    I audited PCs on lines and some of them remembered they did a lot on the bridge last life. They could remember details that we found to be true way later on internet with intensive research, details which were during that auditing not available and where the PCs could not have studied them before. They remembered to be a special person …. but on a few PCs it turned out that person was still alive. Of course they got pretty invalidated as being nuts (from those who do not know that datum written in the NOTs materials you are referring to).
    I do think some of them do return.
    I do think your theory is also correct.
    I guess there are just a lot more possibilities (like total dub-in, real connections, old not-ised viewpoints etc.)
    And I think it is VERY interesting to explore 🙂

      1. Yes, me too!
        I talked about this phenomenon with other auditors, too. There were PCs claiming to be a person they had been with all details recalling. But that person was still alive. AND not only one recalled it but a few more.
        There were even little jokes going around about this phenomenon as people did not understand what was going on because they had not studied the NOTs materials.

        1. I have heard rumors – but never a confirmed case. Although LRH talks about dub-ins like that – and one would assume that there would be at least 10 dub-ins for every actual case. And to me that renders the whole scenario less than plausible. To say the least.

          1. Well, yes. That’s what I mean. There are more phenomena to be explored (like dub-in, real own old viewpoints, real connections to other thetans, old commlines etc.).
            And there are also audited-out entities who take over another body and do come back.
            I agree that this is very rare and should be way more as per the NOTs reference. I encountered at least 2 cases where it is very, very certain that it was a) no dub-in – (too many details turned later out to be correct) and b) that person they meant to have been were still alive.

            Of course there were also a lot cases who just had dub-in.

            You remember the reference on OT III where he talks about some just leaving to be a daisy flower or whatever … ? Well, that’s also something I can’t quite think with …

            But one thing is for sure: it’s an interesting subject where more research is necessary.
            Didn’t Ron give some answers to it on 8?

            1. And when I say verified case – I mean verified case, in a scientific sense. It continues to astound me that Scientology escapes scientific scrutiny after so many years and a mountain of claims.

          2. I guess that some things are not that easy to verify. How do you want to verify scientifically that you have lived before and exactly where and who you had been? Somebody can always say it was all imagined or you read about it somewhere or dejavu or or or. One case I meant was so detailed about where he lived and with intensive research many details could be proven because other people wrote about it in the internet – way later – luckily.
            And how do you want to proove scientifically that you got rid of entities or old viewpoints …. I think one can experience some things which are not all scientifically expainable also because science is not up to a lot things yet. It is also still evolving and finds out more and more about the universe and its laws e.g. the big bang theory.

            I do not fight here for one side or the other. I am just interested in exploring phenomena and discuss them and find out more about it. And I think your idea about old viewpoints is very interesting and explains also a lot phenomena. And I am thankfull you wrote about it as it extended my viewpoint. But it does explain not all phenomena.
            Just my experience, not only my opinion. As I observed and experienced also other phenomena like with the PCs I was talking about.

            1. I have written a few times about scientific research standards and Scientology. I believe it would be fairly easy to verify past lives – to the point where Occam’s Razor would take over. And also to statistically prove the efficiency of processes – that’s very easy. As for proving or disproving specific claims – one would have to deal with each one as science does all the time. Like the case with entities. If LRH claims there will be returnees and we calculate the numbers, then at some point Occam’s Razor will do some shaving. Social sciences is often based on statistics and is thus less digital in their conclusions compared to physics or chemistry. But it is stills science, using scientific methods.

          3. Yes, I agree with you. Good point!
            Well, with the PCs I had experience with it is too late …

            So, I just can use my personal experience for right now.
            There are so many phenomena to be explored and explained.
            E.g. – I had a PC once talking in detail about a life (last life) where he was sure it was not his life. Well, anyhow. He went on that time track of this other person and could tell details which we found out in the internet later to be true. Was a politican in America. Had nothing to do with him this life and also last life. Maybe double body?
            Or just perception of somebody elses universe?
            Or an old connection to that thetan?
            It wasn’t dub-in by definition as the details turned out to be true.

            Couldn’t it also be possible that some of these “connections” seem like entities? (Just another theory … That would explain phenomena I encountered which are not explained by the theory of old viewpoints…)
            Sometimes reminds me of Pat Broeker’s speech on the event when announcing Rons death. He was talking about it that Ron left the tech to cut the last lines…

            1. Or another explanation is that the person studied the life of that other person in his last lifetime.

          4. Of course! That’s why! …. lol … 😀
            Now I know …!

            Well, you can make fun of it or not or believe it or not. You’re free to do so – free will 🙂
            I’m just saying what I observed and experienced with the intention to exchange ideas and viewpoints to explain some phenomena for myself and whoever is interested and of course extend my viewpoint and learn more. I thought that was one of your purpose of this post, too – discuss your theory, get more viewpoints about it, does it explain all phenomena? Is your theory the end result of Occam’s Razor applied and no other simplicity or theories possible? etc.

            And btw this person did definitely not study that life of that person….

            1. My viewpoint as laid out in the OP is by no means a complete theory. It’s only a viewpoint on what I have described. And yes, I am very interested in yours and others’ viewpoints. As for you PC, I was simply offering another possible explanation – as there could be many. It does not however seem to fully conform to what LRH describes in NOTs as such a being is very lifeless and has to be woken up.

          5. One factor that occurs to me is that a person with a body always has the facsimiles of at least two time-tracks available for viewing –
            1. his own track as a being which includes picking up bodies from different genetic lines,and
            2. The facsimiles of the the GE of the body he is currently connected to and carrying around.

            Thus he has available ‘his own’ facsimiles of his ‘thetan track’, and the facsimiles of the current GE’s ‘past lives’ as well as potentially, the facsimiles of the other GE lines he has associated himself with.

            So potentially there are lot of ‘memory banks’ he can pull facsimiles from and claim – “I remember this.”

          6. @Isene: Thanks for clarifying.
            You said: “It does not however seem to fully conform to what LRH describes in NOTs as such a being is very lifeless and has to be woken up.” –
            That’s a very interesting point. Good you mentioned it! In the OT 3 materials he talks about it that there are also some big being. So that would explain at least that maybe one or another does come back and is strong enough to take over a body.
            As for the reference on NOTs. That those are so lifeless could explain why there are almost none coming back. But I know also that LRH mentions they do. That’s really conflicting … 😮

            @Valkov: Good point. That would be an explaination. I read about it, too…..

            1. During NOTs they are presumably woken up and gotten into shape, some even Cleared or OT-ified. Hence, we should see some 20 million+ returnees.

          7. Hmmm, just doesn’t add up, right? Either they are too effect and lifeless or they are woken up and ready to take over a body and do it – if only a very, very few take a body, what’s about the rest?
            You’re theory would fit in this gap perfectly. Maybe there are only a very few real beings and the rest are old viewpoints?
            And some are not even old viewpoints but just dub-in?

            1. Perhaps there are beings also floating around in addition to old viewpoints.

              That there are old, forgotten viewpoints is very easily demonstrated on a personal level (engrams or even “Oh, I forgot I ever held that viewpoint).

          8. You remember the lectures about attention in Source of Life Energy? He talks about old communication lines attached to ones body.
            Maybe that’s another theory. That there are a lot communication lines towards a lot beings accumulated over a long, long period of time. After a while one is so intermingled and is not aware of these connections anymore. One could give attention on this line (feels like waking it up) and get aware of how it was establish (what, who). So one disconnects. The other being has maybe a body (or not or whatever) and is not aware of it either and feels suddenly just a bit better….
            This of course doesn’t explain the idea, that some of it can apparently go clear ….
            But it could explain the phenomenon of healing over distance.

            1. I feel that it may go even deeper than that. The fact that we are unisonily (making up a new word here) in sync as we create the same universe all the time may indicate the deepest of connections. No reason then to believe that I cannot know all about another person’s life at any given point in time.

          9. Right. I agree! I feel the same.
            It reminds me sometimes of a big ball of intermingled viewpoints and commlines (old connections)and maybe also a few beings sticking together and old mock ups. And the bridge is there to just sort it out bit by bit so one is at the end fully aware of himself again out of this ball of confusion. Maybe there would have been an easier way to communicate it instead of using this threatening catastrophe being confidential on top of it.
            Well, LRH said it must not be the nicest way or whatever. It just works.

            And I agree with you fully. So far it works.

            1. Right. As for the threatening catastrophe, I believe LRH was in error about Inc 2. There are too many indications that it didn’t happen.

          10. I think so, too. There were many incidents where he corrected it later as being an implant like his trip on the GE line in History of Man or the wild dates of the implants on OT II where he said they can be ignored as they are also implanted. Apparently it seemed necessary to not change it as it was such a strong implant and as it works to audit it out like that…
            But I don’t like it at all to put people into fear about it and threaten them like “boooo, it’s so dangerous. Even thinking about it after Clear means your death! Now you have it! But if you pay a looooooot money and do what WE think (not even what LRH thought or mentioned or whatever) is right we help you – otherwise we exclude you of the holey way to reach the freedom for yourself. You will stay in hell forever.” …. lol

            Always the same drama within groups ….

            1. The Mafia has perfected that art 😉

              I have lost my belief in the need for confidentiality of the OT levels.

          11. That’s a good one, Geir! …. 😀
            Mafia …. they definitely perfected it. Also the Stasi in DDR or Nazi Germany before that.
            Not to forget the catholic church in Middle Age … and so many groups before and after that.
            Seems to be deeply implanted aberrations on this subject of groups and power. Soon as people connect up it really starts to go wild! And that’s a very good method indeed to keep all beings pretty much powerless.
            Divide and conquer – always working to bring a movement or people down.

            I agree with you – no need for confidentiality, especially because LRH did not make it confidential in the beginning. See Lectures in 1952, Anatomy of Theta Body etc.

            It’s all there.
            And since everything is in the internet it is also pretty stupid.

    1. Geir, I have audited NOTS on others since 1983. I have seen returnees and a few (4) who had been being entities. One just has to be alert, keep TRs in and to have audited a large shitpile of hours (last year I passed the 46,000 hours since 1969.) Thanks for your blog

      1. I would be very surprised if during tens of thousands of hours of NOTs auditing that you wouldn’t at least encounter a few scores of false positives… given the amount of Jesuses an Napoleons reported from Dianetics auditing. Just the desire and belief in something is known to produce false reports – and not just because people consciously lie – but because they so intensely want to believe it. So unless you get at least a few percent of the people you audit to confirm the theory behind NOTs, I will stick to Occam’s Razor.

  35. I second that. My wins the write ups, being considered some who read and written to me and expressed they reality that I have a good imagination, I should become a writer with such a good creative ability very few who read “To walk the walk of solo auditor” which summons up some of my wins the achievements, the cognatios and the new reality levels which comes from the tens of thousand of hours which I have soloed since 76 could in fact are the actuality,, the changed view points, given different reality which was attained by as-is ing the earlier the more solid= narrow reality levels. Therfore extanded the other reality- could have many different one an many levels. few can imagine or believe one can solo every day, for 36 years as i have. One can solo on every consideration, an every agreement and take the MEST UNiveres, dissect it into nothing and come to conclusion. I know nothing, it is my first day, on the adventure to descover, to locate the door into the unknown of the moment. and in the unknown in the invisible there is a different reality which was buried way back. I look at it and see it in new light, undertanding. Svientology , the Tech have given me the greatest of adventures any being can have. The discovery of self with that understanding the universe once capibility and power. Not bad. Yes the Tech works. the gradient is right. One one solo with that the universe is open. One can see, undestand and create once more. The magic regained. Thank you Isene, once more. Elizabeth.

    1. You have not failed to get across on what is Unknowable, you are looking for debateon on the subject and not one poerson picked up the ball and run with it. that do not mean there is no ubderstanding of UNKNOWABLE, on the contrary!!!

            1. No, You are assuming there is such a concept as speculating or considering that you yourself indicate is different from speculation or consideration, only you seem to be unable to admit that your whole premise hinges on just that. A consideration cannot create (or to be specific, collapse the wavefunction), but the act of considering can.

          1. It seems to me that the “act of considering” just happens without any antecedent. It is the surface of the ‘sphere of consideration’… it is the interface.

            .

    1. Well, I guess one could spot the moment he considered ‘To Be’ for the 1st time … then what’s left?

      An actuality of no mass, no wave-length, no position in space or relation in time, but with the quality of creating or destroying mass or energy, locating itself or creating space, and of re-relating time?

      I think recognition of ‘ownership of’ or ‘responsibility for’ beingnesses, identities, considerations & facsimilies that one carries with him will go a long way in handling odd behaviors in certain situations, unusual ills happening ‘out of the blue’, or just plain feeling not himself.

      Whether a beingness/identity or consideration is self generated, borrowed, or it jumped on you from behind and stuck, they all go to forming a composite being.

      Of course one can also get into screens set up to keep one from knowing. What’s behind the screens? Who put them there? Implanted? Maybe ‘ME’ right at the beginning of this game to make it a challenge. Whose consideration is it that I can’t simply ‘know’ what’s behind that screen? Is this consideration even mine? Borrowed?

      Is what we are looking at even real? 🙂

      All of a sudden I feel somewhat naked 😛

      1. Just like a molecule is made up of stoms, and an atom is made up of electrons, protons and neutrons, and an atomic particle is made up of more fundamental particles, and a fundamental particle may be a solidification of flowing energy; similarly, I think that a beingness consists of structures within structures within structure. Call a being composite or whatever, in my opinion, a being has a structure, that has not been fully investigated.

        .

        1. “in my opinion, a being has a structure, that has not been fully investigated”. A opinion is not reality, not an experience. Therefore the so called investagation could exists. And it is, and that is not a opinion.

        2. When in session one as-is all the basics, the reality becomes different if there still any structure remains one has not cognited on the basics, one have not reached the state of Intangible the Infinite. Than back to the session one should go and clear up the MU.

        1. “I should have said, “A being IS a structure.””

          To that all I can say, THANK LRH for the TECH, I have soled on “Stracture” I have taken that consideration into parts, dissected and as-is ad every consideration agreements ever connected with that consideration. It is made of energy, therefore belongs to the MEST Universe. THE item Stracture in a consideration which holds great amount of agreements, and the agreements are self created, collective, groupagreements etc.. whatever. Each being universe is differen in reality therefore the ‘Structure” is different according to ones reality but still part of the MEST=implants. Theta Universe HAS no stracture. It exist as a momentarly creation of the creator the same moment of the creation is the experience. Here I am not talking word taken from books but from knowing, experience which have come from soloing as-is ing and the cognitions which gives the knowledge in very different reality as one learns “To know” here in the MEST U.

    2. “I see a being itself as a viewpoint that may be as-ised.”

      ~Vinaire

      Well, I don’t get it.

      “As-is” means at the moment of creation. One can ask “Who or what creates the postulate?”, but you could say it is an assumption that anyone or anything creates it. Perhaps it is merely an assumption that there is such a thing as a postulate.

      Well,your post seems to assume that something called “as-is” exists or there is a valid referent for it. What is “as-is” a placeholder for?

      My main question is, Why do you indulge in this recursive game? You don’t seem to duplicate what others post, and just answer the questions of Geir and others here with another question.

      That’s not good communication. What, you think you are the modern Socrates and your answering a question with a question will enlighten someone?

      It’s just a firefight you have going.

            1. In my experience, pure looking would get me somewhere. This line of speculation is not. Sorry for being blunt, but that is what I see.

              I love your KHTK-approach with the exercises in looking. It is pure genius. The speculation on the Unknowable seem to be a self-fulfilling prophecy that gets nowhere.

            1. You have done a hefty amount of speculating on the unknowable. You brought it up. You continued to speculate.

              And you don’t take input.

        1. The true knowledge which one have gained in sessions-solo as -is ing the MEST the considerations and argeements galore is not up for debate. And it’s debt never be known to any other being. Only book learned knowledge can be debated for simple reason. About the same knowledge many has written therefor there are many different reality levels, they all can seat around the stadium and duke it out whos has the best view point, who’s is the true reality. That has been going on ever since the implants have become into affact. Why do you think there is confusion? The arguments about who’s implant is better more valuble ETC..I ask, will there be any winners?

          1. Elizabeth, I’m enjoying your posts and this one made me laugh, particularly these two parts:

            “they all can seat around the stadium and duke it out whos has the best view point, who’s is the true reality”

            “arguments about who’s implant is better”?

            😀

          2. Regarding “better implants” I once knew a gypsy OT/SP who made a great Implant Parmesan. That one was hard to beat…

      1. Probably I should just keep quiet. I know I am repeating myself and nobody seem to be getting it.

        There is a valid logical structure, which I refer to as a self-contained ball of consideration. I have no quarrel with what you all are saying, because it is all just a part of that ball.

        .

        1. I do believe that you are not getting something here. You seem to be selling a thesis without leaning on the input you get.

        2. The Intangible, The Infinite, do not contain any considerations, any agreements, if they would they would not be Intengible, Infinite But those considerations “SELF-CONTAINED BALL” is a consideration,it is on existing concept which was postulated into the MEST universe therefore has energy, therefore is has a life span,cycle in MEST, 3 stages, the beginning the middle part that is the continium than the end when the postulate desolves into nothingness. So the Intengible the Infinite is, what exactly mean what it means. Also, that meaning is not debatable, Debate on that subject only exits if it is not attained in sessions-solo, only if one comes by the knowledge in learning from otheres, learning the concepts, words which can be tossed about like dice see what comes up. What number.

    3. Vinaire, It can be as-ised if the being consider to be one with any occupations, doing-ness, I am a carpenter or I am singer, whatever.
      But only in the lower aware-ness level, that can be done and is done.
      When the being achieves the state of the so called enlightenment there is 2 different definitions on that, which in my reality, the two different state cannot be compared since that is impossible.
      . 1: since it strictly within the boundaries of the MEST Universe, described by words with words since. Buddha was only keyed out of his BANK while he was looking for the way out of the MEST universe. Therefore he had no true knowledge of the knowingness one can attain by as-ising the MEST.
      Gautama lived in nothingness even after dropping his body which he did not know will be his reward for his hard work pushing away the rotten human considerations he had fallen into. But there was no other ways existing that time. .
      In his attempt to get rid of all the considerations and agreements of that era, Gautama “ NOT, AS -ISED,” BUT GOT KEYED OUT OF the MEST; the so called worldly world.
      The second Enlightenment the true Enlightenment, that is what Gautama was looking for, The Tech which was not existing in that life time. . So he got stock in nowhere.’ In Huge loss, No Bank- MEST Universe, No recall of previous life’s, no memory. Nothing.
      In the State when the Bank-MEST as-ised that is the state when one can differentiate between, playing the game or I am the game the “carpenter” etc..

      1. There is no was is actually reconcilable with Ouspensky’s model of the universe as a ‘solid’ of 6 dimensions, 3 dimensions of space, energy and matter, and 3 dimensions of time, in which the 6th dimension is the ‘realization of all possibilities’.

        The whole contraption would simply exist ‘now’, and could be entered for viewing at any point in it, or could be viewed by creation of remote viewpoints within it.

        It would be, after all, just the realization of all the possibilties of just this one universe.

        All existing in an ‘eternal now’.

        That would be a hell of a thing to poof!, as-is.

        1. Hi Vinnie, yes, there is a structure. 3 dimensions of time because it takes 3 dimensions, one dimension is not enough.

          In his scheme, the 4th dimension is a time LINE.

          The 5th dimension is a timePLANE, created by the endless ‘lateral’ moment-to-moment branching off of the possibilities of each moment.

          The 6th dimension is analogous to the vertical ‘stacking’ of PLANES to create a SOLID figure.

          These 3 dimensions of TIME would comprise the realization of every possiblity.

          But,I have been thinking about your “Unknowable”.

          I am wondering if what you mean by that might be what I mean by the word INCOMPREHENSIBLE ?

          INCOMPREHENSIBLE:

          archaic : having or subject to no limits

          in·com·pre·hen·si·ble (nkm-pr-hns-bl, n-km-)
          adj.
          1.
          a. Difficult or impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible: incomprehensible jargon.
          b. Impossible to know or fathom: incomprehensible mysteries.
          2. Archaic Having no limits; boundless.
          incom·pre·hensi·bili·ty, incom·pre·hensi·ble·ness n.

          incomprehensible [ˌɪnkɒmprɪˈhɛnsəbəl ɪnˌkɒm-]
          adj
          1. incapable of being understood; unintelligible
          2. Archaic limitless; boundless
          incomprehensibility , incomprehensibleness n
          incomprehensibly adv

          COMPREHEND

          : to grasp the nature, significance, or meaning of
          2
          : to contain or hold within a total scope, significance, or amount
          3
          : to include by construction or implication

          The basic meaning of ‘comprehend’ is something like

          “To view from all possible angles”. It has the flavor ‘surrounding’.

          So, here’s something you might be interested in: 4th London ACC. In these lectures Elron talks all about Native State and “NOT-KNOWING”.

          It seems the way he saw it, NOT-KNOWING is essential to existence, and he goes into a lot of detail on it even in the first 3-4 lectures.

          This might be right up your alley! (You didn’t know you had an alley? Well, that’s how alleys come about, it seems….)

          The whole set is almost 4 gigs, but you can download them one by one at this page:

          4th London ACC download links:

          http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/requested-4th-london-acc.64801/

          If that doesn’t work for some reason, I can load them all on a 4-gig flash drive and send them to you.

  36. Geir,

    Question #1: In your view, are we immortal?

    Question #2: In your view, will we ever get out of the cycle of being in bodies?

    Question #3: Do you believe in God or a Supreme Being?

    Question #4: Do you feel there are other, existing, physical universes to play games in?

    Question #5: What, in your view, is the point of us being so aberrated, irresponsible and full of whole track amnesia?

    1. #1: Yes

      #2: If you want

      #3: Yes

      #4: Yes

      #5: To have a game.

      I love it when people ask direct questions. Thank you, Bryan.

          1. Thanks. Interesting that you do have certainty about the existence of God in itself. Can you say why?

          2. Got it. And that aligns better, no seeming paradox now. Direct answers might be even better than direct questions, btw. 🙂

        1. At one time I theorized that the 8th dynamic might be the sum total of all the creativity of all beings.

          The $64 question to me is, Is the Beginning the same as the End?

          This in my mind is related to Hubbard’s statement that in the beginning there is a being who is very powerful but totally ignorant. After sufficient processing, there is once again a very powerful being, but now he has experience and “can fix the kid’s electric train.”

          See also my post about the mootness of whether we are many or one. It’s upstream in this thread.

          https://isene.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/a-radical-new-view-of-the-upper-scientology-levels-ok-here-goes/#comment-4114

          1. Yes, I saw that earlier comment. Got a chuckle out of the answer to the question of are we one or are we many – yes. Ha!

            You might be right that it’s a moot question and that the Beginning may be the same as the End, but somehow I’m interested to know what that Beginning was. Seems like it would make a difference in how we perceive things and others, or whatever.

          2. Geir wrote:

            “One cannot be totally ignorant while creating It All.”

            Good catch Geir. I think the word ‘totally’ was my additive. It’s been a while since I heard the lecture, but I don’t think Hubbard said ‘totally’.

            I just started listening to the 4th London ACC lectures, which I think were previously released on cassette as “The First Postulate” lecture series. They are now available for free download, I’ll check for where they are available.

            These start right out with LRon’s take on Native State and the first and second postulates, and it’s wild stuff.

            Native State is indeed the state of ‘knowing everything’, but not necessarily know any particular thing.

            The first postulate(s) are along the lines of NOT-KNOW (I don’t know), I’m not, I don’t have,etc. They follow the BE-DO-HAVE scale or series).

            So it’s like we have looked at previously, a being creates randomity by selecting out things he doesn’t know, isn’t, and doesn’t have.

            Why?

            So he can then ‘KNOW ABOUT'(by learning how to) BE by learning how to DO whatever he postulated he doesn’t know how to do and therefore HAVE whatever he postulated he does not have!

            So yes, at no time is he ‘totally ignorant’ as he creates all this, but it appears he can go pretty far in that direction as he makes more and more ‘first postulates’ that he ‘is’ ignorant of this, that and the other thing.

            A being postulates his own ignorance, in order to have a game.

  37. Thanks Geir, Great OP.
    A direct and honest look trough the veil of mistery is very much needed, and then, clarification and simplification of it.

    I like very much the simplicity of your model.

    I´m trying to make predictions with it, which could then be corroborated. have you made some?

    As one becomes whole,and responsible, creativity and control of one´s own universe should increase, and also, ability to communicate and experience(lookingness, knowingness), shared reality (not enforced) with other beings, specially those moving in the same direction.

    Increased reality of a state of brotherhood.

    A group of such beings would communicate very easily, even telepathically, and maybe operate as a whole, creating an universe of their own, or maybe creating visible effects on the MEST universe.

    Is there a point of creation of creativity ?(life).

    I believe we are about to reach origin, the creation point of this universe, and maybe, the ability to step above of it.
    If individuality disappears or not cannot be seen from inside this universe.

    What visible results are obtained from the OT levels?
    A good model will produce results, what can be seen with this one?

    1. Nice comment. I could add that people mutually create universes all the time. Some are called companies, other are called families, nations or organizations.

      1. Great point. But those are sub-universes, dependent on MEST.

        Maybe at the point of origin creation of universes not dependent on MEST, or even causative over MEST could occur.

        Also, I do not believe creation of other viewpoints (or other universes), with life of their own, could occur inside the MEST universe; that necessarily would come from outside, or at least from the origin point, of this universe.

        I´m just speculating about the characteristics of sets, sub-sets, and super-sets (universes); and placing creativity (free will, potential) above, or at least, at the origin point, of the MEST universe.

          1. Geir: No engrams? No unexpected thoughts? (No reply button appears on your post)

            Holy smoke !! Good point.
            Back to the drawing board….
            And I´ll have to start from zero, cause this small fact is staring at me now:
            I talk all the time to “myself”……

            1. (I think there is a max number of reply levels on this theme…)

              Talking to oneself to play ball with ideas is A Good Thing methinks. But unwanted thoughts or behaviour is not…

  38. Thanks for the answers, Geir.

    I, too, like brevity.

    If I may ask a few more:

    Question #6: Many comments here are very wise. Yet, they could be summed-up in perhaps 1/20th the word count, thus taking up far less of your time and getting right to the point. This, too allows for faster learning by your readers. Faster particle flow on multiple viewpoints being exchanged. You have hinted at this many times. Is there a solution, or are you okay with it as is?

    Question #7: What, in your view, makes the difference between starving children born in, say, South Africa and beings born into far more pro-survival, affluent conditions?

    Question #8: LRH called Earth a prison planet. This would suggest a no-games condition, as it perhaps suggests that we are being held here against our will. Do you see it this way?

    Question #9: I’ve read about being sucked into implant stations once the body dies. Is this real to you? If so, how do we avoid it once our heart stops beating?

    Question #10: Do you recall a more favorable existence on the past track than the current one, with its wars, greed, poverty, illness, drugs, etc?

    Thanks for your time!

    1. #6: I see no solution. It is fairly Ok as it is. Thanks for reminding the posters here 😉

      #7: The sense of belonging, of familiarity.

      #8: No.

      #9: I am not sure about the idea of implant stations – I think specific phenomena comes into play – be it existing implants or something else…

      #10: Yes. But I like this one too 😉

    2. Regarding implant stations it should be noted that there’s something called (as you surely have heard of) a near-death-experience (NDE) which have happened to about 10-20 % of resuscitated patients. (Perhaps it happened to the other patients as well but they don’t remember it?)

      A classical NDU all contains the same factors:

      1. out-of-body experience
      2. a sense of calmness
      3. seeing a light
      4. travelling through a tunnel
      5. arriving at a calm place
      6. meeting old relatives
      7. having a life review, i.e. lots of pictures from your life flashing by, sometimes accompanied by some kind of mentor who comments on your life.

      All of the above occur independent of ethnicity, nationality and geographical location, with some variations, e.g. the mentor is sometimes “Jesus”, sometimes something else dependent on your religion etc. So it could be that everybody see about the same thing but interpret it differently depending on their culture.

      The above (according to me) indicates some kind of pre-programmed experience and the word implant most easily comes to my mind.

    3. How to avoid being implanted? Do not go into the light after you have died. Go to a hospital and try to take a body, if it works that way. Many report being sucekd down into a body before getting born so it could be that “the implanters” have a special way of getting you into the body.

      I don’t know if you can just take a body as a free-floating thetan.

      Mediums talk about “the other side” which is on the other side of the light. So ghosts who have unfinished business hang around their relatives etc and when the medium are finished with them they try to send them to the “other side”, toward the light. I don’t know if this is the wisest thing to do though. On the other hand, I don’t know what happens if you are not implanted. Perhaps you will more easily remember your past life?

  39. Scientology upper OT Levels – my experience – Perhaps this is the Real EP of NOTs ?

    I did new OT V at AOLA around 1987. I paid close attention to the OT V bulletins that were part of the in session training on the level and in particular, I really “got” where Ron said that the fastest way to blow the NOTs charge is by inspection. He also talked about “massive blows” where huge amounts of that kind of charge would get handled and it would go faster and faster.

    I had early on developed the ability to blow engrams by inspection and it was very natural to do this with the NOTs material as well.

    I have always liked to make my auditing as efficient as possible.

    The auditor I had at the time was very validating and willing for me to use my as-ising abilities.

    So in the beginning we worked with the usual NOTs techniques where one or a few entities would be handled at a time, but I quickly got into blowing by inspection and massive blows where a sort of chain reaction would occur and vast amounts of the NOTs entities would blow, hundreds, sometimes even thousands or more. The as-ing would often go on for several minutes with huge huge relief.

    I quickly progressed from just my body and nearby space to the surrounding area. From reading the ep of OT VII, I would say I got it or very close to it on my original OT V because of the very efficient way I developed of handling that type of charge.

    After the level was done, if anything occurred in my life that caused any NOTs charge to be re-stimulated, I wouldn’t hesitate to take a look at it and cause it to blow. I didn’t do this obsessively or compulsively, just as a tool I would easily use as needed, which wasn’t that often. I found I could “chase down” this type of charge and as-is it and any related bits very easily. Sometimes the as-ness would extend to other “universes” or other “times” and breathtakingly large amounts of blows would take place. Perhaps millions of entities within moments. Then an amazing thing took place: One morning in Northern California I took a look at some NOTS charge and as-ised it and suddenly a big peaceful change and realization took place. I realized that I DIDN’T EVER HAVE TO HANDLE THAT TYPE OF CHARGE EVER AGAIN. It was a major case change, not unlike going Clear and just as significant.

    I also realized – ironically – that I was pretty screwed as far as what future C/Ss would think… :>)

    That case state has remained totally stable all these years – again, similar to the way the state of Clear is stable. Interestingly I can be aware of NOTs stuff around, mostly associated with other people, but it has no real charge or impact for me. It is kind of flimsy and insubstantial.

    It seems to me that I somehow managed to get the true end-point EP for all of NOTs, which I have never heard anyone else speculate about.

    It is an excellent state to achieve, but not any kind of “full OT” state. I still can’t knock of hats at 30 paces or travel to mars without my body or even to the British Museum with full perceptics. I think the next step for me would be more the type of thing that was on the “old” OT levels. Lots of OT exercises, Grand Tour, etc.

    1. Those SIDDHIS (look this word up in Wikipedia) are traps. The goals implanted at OT levels are traps. What works at OT levels is LOOKING as in KHTK.

      You did the right thing by not getting stuck to desiring those SIDDHIS.

      .

      1. So are you saying the desire to have “OT abilities” such as operating without a body, but with OT perceptics, is a trap?

        Of course, in Hindu philosophy I suppose all desires are a trap.

    2. I had that exact “EP” on my OTll,i also realizes I’m “screwed” as to get any agreement from a C/S on this matters.I was actually thrown out from Ron’s Org on it,interestingly i never got any Tr2 on my 10 div blow-down and floating TA (i was treated as an “ethics particle”) Ron says in his filmed interview,”some stays on the bridge longer than others,,this is all taken for granted”..)My idea of any future “bridge” is also in the realm of “drills”:))

    3. JerryH,
      I had a similar experience when I was auditing NOTS, in the independent field. My C/S trained under David Mayo, and I trained on delivering it under Merrill. Most of my later sessions simply consisted of counting and locating very large numbers of ‘them’, and they would all blow. Maybe 5 minutes to FTA. Ran out of anything to audit, and started getting into trying to handle the ‘theta’ (phi and Lambda) that made up the body. Which didn’t work well. The body doesn’t like that.

      I did my L’s after that, and several actions, attested to Clear OT and felt I was doing well.

      Then my wife started on the Excaliber course and I started getting heavily hit both spiritually and physically. And I audited on Excaliber for over a year and half, and I didn’t have short sessions, my head physically shook the entire time of all of my sessions, and most sessions went about 2 1/2 hours , I did handle a lot of stuff, and I did get FTA;’s. Then I did several parts of CBRs bridge, and one day I realized I never even saw the stuff handled on III and NOTS/Excaliber anymore. It’s just not there for me anymore. There are others things I run into , but I’ve pretty well gotten up to blow by inspection stage with all of that stuff.

      I did run out all of my own GPM’s, and I handled other identities and valences (using techniques from the 1st Melbourne ACC), and a ton of machinery. And I ran a level I thought of as orders of magnitude, lots of the ‘same incident’ with lots of pieces, connected with lots’ of others and flattened that.

      Recently I was looking at TROM and found I could easily see everyone elses viewpoint and everything they were creating, including their track, machinery and opinions, and could handle things with that as the session space.

      I recently wrote and ran an OT obnosis booster rundown that ran quite nicely and did actually boost my obnosis about an order of magnitude.

      Currently I’m auditing on a Conditions Rundown for all dynamics that is getting some very good traction.

      My session tend to only go about 15 minutes or less, to cogntion, FTA, and I’m getting major wins.
      It’s moving the TA quite nicely.

      My session space is all of space and time, and creations, and all unique individualities,.

      Most things I handle by handling large groups at the same time, each with their own attention line.
      It’s a skill I developed.

      My general auditing program is to stably put back abilities I had in 1956 where I could literally do anything for about a year, but it wasn’t stable. It tended to key in others failed purposes, and I didn’t have the tools and tech to handle that at the time. I got to that ‘going up the pole’; point by auditing over 3000 hours of Op Pro by Dup, each way. Literally at the end uncreating everything and then putting everything back. But it was not stable.

      I’m going to get there stably now. I’ve been at this since 1946 at Oak Knoll , over 66 years now.
      And it’s just the beginning of all the possible wins ahead.

      1. I got your number you bad person you!! Now I really understand what path you walk on and you must have been reading some of the comments I have made, so you know of my realities. Listen, What i have seen today would blow your socks off, come to think of it that would depands on if you wear any..
        If you care to hear it let me know, i hope you do since i would love to share it.

        1. I’d love to to hear it. Always like to have my socks blown off. I’m not sure completely of your realities – you have posted quite a bit, and although I read fast, I just started reading any of this a couple a days ago. Somehow I saw something Geir posted, and I thought I’d dive in. I’m not at all about proof. If it’s not true for someone else it isn’t and I’m fine with that. But I know what I have perceived and experienced and I never allow anyone else to tell me what my truth is. But I do have differing experiences over time, and some things do change that I was certain of, when looked again later.

          I’m always happy to share anyone else’s truth with them. It’s really fun, and I’m quite curious about it know.

      2. Doc: “My general auditing program is to stably put back abilities I had in 1956 where I could literally do anything for about a year, but it wasn’t stable. It tended to key in others failed purposes, . . . ”

        Chris: Excellent writeup. Very easy to follow… Can I ask you to expound what you mean by “literally do anything for about a year…”? And please, does this “anything in 1956” include successfully violating natural Newtonian law?

        1. Literally anything. I could create, destroy, move, change, alter, any object or particle or space or whatever in or regarding the physical universe. I just created the ‘now’ exactly as I wanted. Direct creation. I wasn’t using any earlier machinery, or patterns or anything else that I had ever created, that was all not being created by me, and it was just direct creation. And done in a way that caused the change to be done in the shared MEST universe. Now as to whether anyone could see that or realize that it had changed, that depended on their awareness, and how much machinery they were viewing things through. But at the most basic level of MEST shared agreed illusion, it was there the way I put it there. Newtons laws are only true in the local time space continuum anyways, and require that there be big thetans around, in the area to be seen and observed. Unless there is a big thetan or thetans with a viewpoint observing the universe is only virtual its not ‘real’. If the tree falls in the forest, and theres no one there, there isn’t any tree or forest to fall in, much less be seen. We have an incredible number of lines of theta we create to view, and see what other viewpoints are up to, and to keep all of this sort of co-ordinated, and most of us usually don’t uncreate them when we are done with that action or cycle. So we tend to trip over them later.

          One of the things I have seen lately, is that the track (our copy of the universe, postulates, and opinions) is only there because we create it, and it’s only viewed as having any chains, because we add the chains, the actual things are all unique, newly in a new unit of time, and have no basic true connection. We are actually always creating everything newly in a new unit of time, and then we overlay that with a bunch of postulates of connection, and significance.

          And similarly, any terminals (in GPMS) or valences all of which are mocked untrue versions of things. The item is what we consider aunt Alice to be, not what she actually was, and only has power because there was actually such a real big thetan as they actually were underneath it. The truth of the big being allows the persistence of the altered lie of the terminal or valence.

          the truth of the unlimited unbounded transfinite sources allows the altered lie of a narrow, bounded, defined, apparent universe of games. And it’s all really theta anyways.

          And you don’t have to shrink, and diminish and become less, you can expand and grow and become more.

          You can create as much admiration as you want. There is no set amount. And thetans love admiration in the shared games they do. Via viewpoints and dimension points.

          The way they initiate games and comm and exchange and such is through an initial comm I call a hook. We put the hook out and ask the other to play, and if they accept the hook via their own hook, then the game or games begin.

          And that would all be fine, if we just put the hooks away when the game was over.

          If a hook is not accepted, the thetan can and does create it forever. Which is not always the brightest thetan thing to do.

          we can create things that allow for fun, and expansion, and increase and connection, or we can create things that cause no fun, contraction, decrease and disconnection.

          Sorting out which is which is part of the fun of the path.

          An excellent book to read, which hits the whole enlightenment thing from several different levels is Roger Zelazny’s “Lord of light”. It’s Science Fiction , but it’s very meta. Hit’s it from several different angles.

          For some interesting Sci Fi meditations on psychic abilities, read any of James Schmitz’s book, like the “Witches of Karres”, or any of his books about the “hub”. He was the president of CADA (California Association of Dianetic Auditors) at one time. Also EE Doc Smiths – “Subspace Explorers” and :”subspace encounters” are recommended. Less read than the LensMan Series probably more useful for the OT. And of course, the great Robert Heinlein’s work “Stranger in a Strange Land” – from where we get the term GROK. Sometime I like to tell people that what I’m doing is learning Martian (read Heinleins book – you’ll get the reference”).

          1. James, great post, 100% my reality outside of course those names you have mentioned for Chris.
            you are comfiming of what i have known about big, giant thetans, interesting, since i have known I am a giant among giants and I am very aware my ability to cause in the spiritual universe.
            The only reality break I have head how can one be such.. I have looked for reasons and what i received was communication from others who are very aware and asked me to accept thought-responsibility since to have a game one has to be a leader in order to have fallowers. and the leader holds that space intact where the game is being played. [ i still feel a bit shy talking about this since I never mentioned this to no-one till now.]
            It was only than I accepted: yes, it is is fine to be on. but i still dont know the reason why the difference outside of awarness one has and the ability of course to create-cause. Bloody hell, I am good!!!
            ‘PS, dont panic i have soloed-confronted every passible concepts of importance,” being” anything so those are just words… hehehe.. i am of to see the dragon and we will share a cup of tea..

            1. Elizabeth,
              It’s the KRC triangle – you know, you can control, and your are responsible – not as a lowed tone thing but as a high toned, exciting artistic thing, demonstration of technical excellence is itself an artistic performance, and it benefits all to see that demonstration.

              You are not alone. It’s fine with me if you want be do and have alone, and you can be do an have that forever, as far as I’m concerned, and that too can be fun and exciting.

              But I find it more fun and exciting to share, as widely and deeply as I can the fun I’m having.

              Around the time of Richard the lionhearted the word liege changed concept from representing the positive duty the warrior had, chosen by those he was protecting, to the duty the protected owed to their conqueror who was protecting them from all those other badies. In other words it went from at cause view to an at effect view.

              But the truth is we are all in this together. We are all friends. Some of my friends aren’t doing as well in their current consideration as they would like, and I’m working intently (and having fun doing it) to fix that. So we can all have fun, knowingly and at will together. It will be the biggest party and dance, and concert and creative art explosion we have ever done together.

              If you have the gifts, please share them.

              Part of leading is to be very curious and intent on those you are leading so you can produce what they need and want, and acceptance of the back flow of admiration and love.

              Just like what it takes to be a good auditor or public speaker.

              Things generally go from a monad (single source) to a dyad (double source) to multiple sources.

              There’s always pioneers, and there is always consolidators.

              The goal of Scientology is to enable another to play a better game in their own estimation.
              (From fundamentals of thought).

              Ethics is reason and contemplation of optimum survival.

              If it’s not fun it’s not Scientology.

              Have some fun.

            2. James I must have written something, not expressing my self clearly and caused a MU.
              I am very aware I am not alone the fact what I believe and have reality on is contrary. I operate in the Universe share that Universe of Free Beings [ have no bodies] I don’t think I will explain my realities since there is not much point in that.. If you desire to know more all you need to do is read some of the hundreds of posting In Geirs blog since many are cognition based and or read my blog which is made out of 175 major cognitions. [all in one year and it is only part of the rest i was too lazy to write about.]
              About fun, I have nothing but fun ever since I have erased FEAR which was about 14-15 years back.. Please do read some of my postings.. and have some fun reading it, others do. thanks.

  40. Geir,

    Dr. Wayne Dyer (self-help guru from the USA), states that one must align themselves with “universal source” or “God” by feeling good and eradicating as many self-invalidative thoughts as possible. Sort of like vibrating at higher wavelengths of the Tone Scale, if you will. If you can do this well, along with seeing things you want to accomplish from the end result (as if they are already accomplished), your life will flow quite successfully, according to him.

    Any reality on these points?

    Any added comments to offer?

    Thanks! Learning a lot here.

    1. There is value to strive for purity in personal integrity, in compassion, in doing right across the dynamics. If the concept of God helps in that, then God has value. If believing that all life is intimately connected brings about an understanding and tolerance, then that has value. Anything that works is a step toward truth. Hence, I believe God and a sense of unity holds some truth.

    1. And I believe the inconsistencies in your use of Unknowable has been duly pointed out. Hence we are in concordance with your wish.

    2. By speaking about “unknowable” are you referring to the question of whether or not God or some other who/s or what/s EXIST – is that what is unknowable?

      Or do you agree that there is some sort of “existence” beyond the material (i.e. that much is know-able and is either known already or can be known), but do NOT agree that knowledge of more than that is knowable – i.e. knowledge about the NATURE of such an existence – is that what is unknowable?

      1. In other words, are you saying that it is unknowable whether or not there is such an “existence”? Or are you saying that anything ABOUT that existence is unknowable? Just want to be sure I duplicate what you are actually saying.

    3. Vinare, If you would dare to look into the so called UNKNOWABLE, Peel away the invisible, the unknown, forgatten, not remembered, given up, buried, hidden, conceal, out of sight, all the secrets,walls, in prison, the between world in which nothing exits and few dozen more items I could list than you would discover a new universe in the Unknown and unknowable. You would erase that word from your dictionary.

    4. Vinaire. “The debate should be on inconsistencies among what we believe in.””” Got you kid. You fall into your own…. If you have such on , long word! Inconsistencies. The Sessions, auditing soloig takes care of that sooner or later the many considerarions the confusions on the same subjects fall away since they are Implants created and ech of those dandy creations feed the being different commands view pints in sessions-solo the bad is as=ised, the WRONG, conflicting stuff. Sooner or later on the inconsistencies, the believes ends, on the end one has the gem, the jewel in form of the cognation. Which holds no inconsistencies, the true knowledge is not debatable.

  41. Wow, I go away for a while and look what I come back to!!! Much much food for thought…

    I thought I would throw out a few ideas I have been having or more properly stated things I have realized.

    Funny word REAL-ized

    “we would have a large number of beings turning up for auditing that were ready to run a very different process than the ordinary Bridge (as covered in OT VI material).”

    It seems to me that they would not show up for auditing, they already received the auditing they needed. I think a more rewarding question may be: what reality are they released into?

    “Viewpoints that I created and that I no longer take responsibility for and when I through auditing do take responsibility for them, I would conclude that the one creating them was ME.”

    Lately it seems like me and thee and the birds and the bees. After all, what inspires us to make these viewpoints? And what exactly is a thought-form vs a physical form? And when are they exactly? And where are they exactly? Lately it looks like aggregates upon aggregates in an infinity of creation.

    I’ve been considering the Chart of Attitudes. At the top of the scale is the ability to operate in past present and future, in short, any time. And at the top of the arc scale – no separation, total duplication, communication with no vias.

    Then maybe this little body of mine isn’t my only body. After all, it is a thought-forms aggregate. So what if the entire world is just such a thought-form. So too the entire galaxy. And beyond that too. And those too are my body? Or should I say – the body that I connect with and use to participate?

    And when I am auditing, what am I “recovering”? It seems to me that points of dissonance are being remedied and released where? when? It also seems to me that points of consonance are being created just as much, if not more. Where? When?

    It seems to me that what is recovered and what is created is simply always “there.” The forms change and the relative dissonance and consonace change but what is still is and this is the backdrop, not the show. And maybe, just maybe the auditing is actually altering the past and the future and now. And maybe not just here where my little female body sits.

    I’ve been considering the point of view that there are eight dynamics. Its a fine model. Very useful. But it appears to me that auditing or indeed life is not ACTUALLY severable into 8 dynamics. There’s just one. And that one is you and me and everything we see. And we share this quest, this awareness, this reaching, and interdependence, this creation, resonating endlessly.

    Perhaps its simply about learning to resonate and create from within a universe shared or otherwise without getting lost or confused or not (depending on the point of the activity I guess)

    And when one can do that then all worlds are open as one wishes. And there can be worlds where wishes are horses and beggars do ride.

    Or maybe sailing Greece?

    1. Maria: ” And maybe not just here where my little female body sits.”

      Exactly so! -Changed MY universe.

      As we’ve wrangled about what is and what is not, I began thinking that we are selling MEST short by sort of giving it a brush-off and looking past it toward something we can’t quite get to and which Rafael called a “flimsy lie.”

      There is depth and breadth and plenty to contemplate in the physical world right in front of us. There is plenty of room in the cracks for the things to exist that we don’t yet suspect or understand to fit. If we do the work of understanding that, maybe we discover we should just be auditing instead of blogging.

      1. Chris my Dear, you have made my day. Now, take your socks off before you go to read the article on my blog. Mother load. That should inspire you to do what you intend to do! Love Ya!

    2. Mathematics don’t apply to the theta universe,one “Thetan/Theta line” can have more than one body at the time.Following the theta line back in time up the line may reveal that we are “one” (or not).When you have total communication it may be difficult to separate where you starts and I stops..

      1. Well said Tommy. Several of us here are having this sense about oneness.

        For sure, as ARC increases we become closer. Or maybe we just become less farther apart – I don’t know – – – I wanted to write something smart, but lost the urge to do so! hahahaha! I must have been thinking about something Valkov said! hahaha!

  42. From the Freezone, here’s a cognition from OT7-NOTS:

    I had a big cognition today, a big win. I realized I came from something other than my individuality. I recognized the point where I created my individuality from something other than it. “I” was something else before I became me.

    The point of creation of a thetan is pan-determinism narrowing itself to a self-determinism.

    To create an individual thetan is to create a player for a game.

    To create an individual is to diminish the will to a level where one can begin a game.

    The goal of being an individual on the first dynamic is to play a game.

    Happiness is being all dynamics.

    Spending a whole life on personal first dynamic pursuits is a trap.

    If one opens up to all dynamics one becomes happiness.

    The game of individual pursuits can bring rewards and fun, but not happiness.

    Being all dynamics is the action of leaving the game. Having the ability to enter and leave a game is freedom.

    Joe Warren

    1. Wow, Valkov, pretty interesting. Thanks for posting this. You are a prolific knowledge and data scout for us!

      1. Geir. Please, go for it do get a big bowl. Here,
        the sleeves are rooled up on my cardigan.
        I have two dictionaries stand guard by my side.
        holds no chalange to tear learned knowledge apart. But i love the sparkles created fly, [I am Not to keen on swiss cheese, it is full of holes.] But great fun knowing all the words are blown away by the next wind. The value the fun was the game. I am looking for restimulation in vain!!

        1. Elizabeth, funny stuff! And “tear learned knowledge apart” is a good addition to your earlier, choice lines of “duking it out to see who has the best viewpoint” or “whose implant is better.” Witty and no doubt wise!

          Vinaire, where are you? I think Elizabeth probably duplicates you better than anybody. But your phrase would be, “tear considerations apart,” am I right?

    2. Very nice cognition!

      It really rings true to me … prior to mocking up or creating a beingness, there is something … a potential, all-knowing & aware.

      In order to play the game, beingness is created, and with that, comes conditions such as forgetting what one knows, an identity that is created which at once alters the original ‘entity’, and an adoption and agreement to abide by the rules of the game one is entering.

      It is a total denial of that original ‘self’.

      LRH mentions in a few places where once we move out of the game, we don’t just combine back into some ‘blob’ of knowingness or a ‘all are one’ concept.

      He also mentions Big Beings & minions … possibly these minions are just ‘chips off the old block’ and as we gain awareness these ‘chips’ are regained or move back to their respective creator as free theta.

      Thanks for posting this.

      1. Hi Dennis. “In order to play the game, beingness is created, and with that, comes conditions such as forgetting what one knows, an identity that is created which at once alters the original ‘entity’, and an adoption and agreement to abide by the rules of the game one is entering.” I my reality you have described the conditions, the very rules used which are or is [?] dictated by the Implants to fallow, the “how” to play the game. In the theta universe none of the above exiting, or being applied. Rules, regulations, identity, or beingness not needed to have an experience, or creation.

    3. Very true!!
      And it explains some of Geirs questions,don’t you think?(granting beingness is a clue 2)

  43. All Scientology is bullshit, get a life and stop holding two tin cans. Life is out in the streets and public and private places on this planet. Please continue the process of deprogramming and leave all of Hubbards crap in the trash can.

    1. Before you continue to make a fool out of yourself, I recommend that you first do a bit of reading to get some kind of an idea what my viewpoint on Scientology is.

    2. What a wonderful comment. I truly hope you feel much better now. And this time would be a good time to clear up your MU, an every word you have written in your coment.

  44. OK folks, I have discovered that Vinaire not only has a ‘secret identity’ but may BE a secret identity! It appears he is the long-lost brother of Hollywood’s Austin Powers the International Man of Mystery, and his real name is Austin Siddhis the UNKNOWABLE Man of Mystery, Bollywood’s answer to Hollywood’s superhero.

    Sorry about blowing your cover like this Vinnie, but I felt the public’s ‘right to know’ is the overriding consideration here.

    Here is a recently discovered video in which Vinnie is mistaken for Austin Powers because they do look much alike, being twins…..

  45. Hello Geir Isene. I have a question. Is it Ok with you if I would continue with comments in your Blog? I am asking since I know my reality is well, you know my reality by now. I do not wish to over stay my welcome. so please let me know. If you think I should not that is fine. No ARC B. here. I am sort of holding back,there is a reason for that. Thank You. Elizabeth or Erzsebeth.

  46. Thank You. Then I offer this short note in friendship.

    My understanding of what is purity, what pours fort from the so called Pure heart

    after the MEST is as-is ad one regains the intangible the Native state The INFINITE.

    Where there is no darkness of the past remains, in “now” the Life force shines.

    The Few lines bellow is small part out cognation in which the understanding have come, what is a total duplication.

    Suddenly a small dog appeared front of me She stood rooted into the Earth

    her short little legs wide apart grin on her face and laughter in her eyes.

    Joy washed over me as I looked back into her eyes, inquiring.

    “As I have duplicated her Universe” suddenly there was nothing around us,

    The MEST Universe has vanished.

    There was nothing and no one.

    The invisible form opened up and light poured forth.

    Soundless sounds formed words and I have heard

    “I am what you are”.

    my Universe opened too hearing that magical

    concept, the greeting of spiritual beings in the Cosmos,

    unfolded and the two light become one

    as I have heard my reply, the “echo”

    “ I am what you are”

    There was no more communication, since none was needed.

    The wondrous sound of Affinity washed over the Universe.

    After eons apart two friends were united.

    For one, time never existed, for me the journey was long and now ended,

    I have arrived laden with gifts,

    They are the experiences when as-is ad in form of cognations have becomes knowledge.

    I have Returned and Welcomed.

    The West Coast of Canada is shrouded in heavy silvery mist.

    It lulls the soul into peaceful calmness. But I fly, I live in light

    Since I am light!!!!

    1. Elizabeth, I enjoyed your lovely post.

      You got me thinking
      words are sometimes
      like the notes of music
      not particularly denoting
      finite things
      the way words usually do
      but evoking
      feelings sublime.

      (Not just thinking, you got me waxing poetic!) 🙂

        1. Just for that I’m going to give my little poem a title – “Ode to a Post” You elevated it in my eyes! 😉

        1. Hi, Chris. Haven’t seen you here lately. Or your favorite sparring partner. (Are you sure you two aren’t brothers? ha ha!)

    1. 🙂

      At the risk of showing my ignorance (or should I say, my Knowledge? ha ha!) let me ask you, do you now go in and out of the MEST universe? Or are you always out, maybe with just some “feelers” extended into it?

  47. Ron says that a Thetan and a thought are similar things.A child that creates an “imaginary friend”,or “God” creating the angels,sounds like the same process?The entities was described as ridges,circuits and valences in the early works.(i don’t think there IS any difference)

    1. Yes, Tommy, I remember something like that too – a thetan is similar to a thought. Do you remember the reference? It has greater interest for me these days…

      1. I think it was in the PDC,but it is in the deff of Theta to:)
        THETA, 1. theta is thought, life force, elan vital, the spirit, the soul, or any other of
        the numerous definitions it has had for some thousands of years. (SOS, p. 4) 2 .
        the life force, life energy, divine energy, elan vital, or by any other name, the
        energy peculiar to life which acts upon material in the physical universe and
        animates it, mobilizes it and changes it. It is susceptible to alteration in character
        or vibration, at which time it becomes enturbulated theta or entheta. (SOS, Bk. 2,
        p. 21) 3. theta is thought; an energy of its own universe analogous to energy in
        the physical universe but only occasionally paralleling electromagnetic-gravitic
        laws. The three primary components of theta are affinity, reality, and
        communication. (SOS, Bk. 2, p. 3) 4 . reason, serenity, stability, happiness,
        cheerful emotion, persistence, and the other factors which man ordinarily
        considers desirable. (SOS, Bk. 2, p. 12) 5 . an energy existing separate and
        distinct from the physical universe. (SOS, p. 4) 6 . Greek for thought or life or
        the spirit. (Aud 10 UK) 7 . not a nothingness. It just happens to be an exterior
        thing to this universe—so you couldn’t talk about it in this universe’s terms.
        (PDC 6)

        1. Thank you, Tommy! For going to the trouble of posting all that and thus getting me to look it all over (as it was right there in front of me!). And from there I decided to look at the defs of “thought” (in Tech Dict as well as the regular English defs, which LRH of course used at times too), specifically looking at these defs: “the product of mental activity” and “a judgment, opinion, belief.” Then I thought of the def of concept (a high-wave THOUGHT…) and the fact that thoughts are energy (mental energy – just a finer, higher wave than physical energy) and are products of a thetan (an energy-space production unit).

          Now, getting back to “a thetan is similar to a thought” I thought of the def of GE, “that beingness not dissimilar to the thetan…” and I read again the following line in HOM: “The GE is theta.” And from there – I sorted out, better than I ever have, static vs. theta vs. thetan and Cause vs. viewpoint (in The Factors) and OMG!

          Bottom line is that I’ve clarified my understanding not only of how a thetan is similar to a thought but all the above as well. Do you know the story about “the want of a horseshoe nail”? Well, Tommy, thanks for the horseshoe nail! 🙂 🙂 🙂

          1. U are welcome Marildi:)
            It is also interesting what going up the bridge means?! If you grant enough beingness to an animal it starts to behave “human”.A magi/occultist may get “possessed” or assume the beingness of a “higher being”.I think any part of theta can be “God”..

          2. I thought of something else in relation to “static vs.theta vs. thetan”. In the Scn Picture Book there was (or used to be) a statement about a thetan being in “a little bit of mass.” Apparently, that book quoted from other LRH books and I was wondering where that particular quote came from. Do you (or anybody) know?

            It also comes to mind that upon death a person’s body weighs slightly less (an empirical fact, no less). I wonder, is that weight just erasable bank mass, which would theoretically leave the thetan weightless – or, if the mass were ALL to be as-sed, would that include the “thetan”, perhaps leaving just static…

  48. Here I go again…. There is a song with that title. Thank you for asking, few dare to ask and even fewer would believe. The body is in BC Canada. I have not changed location I am, I always have been.
    What changes are there is the viewpoints.
    By as-ising the MEST all the considerations all the agreements which have connected to me to be here believing I am here, I am a human.
    By erasing=as-ising the walls, the barrier’s the incredibly difficult state which is the after death state, which is the nothingness, the unknown, the emptiness, the void the invisible, unmoving, no energy, dozens and dozens of other considerations.
    Slowly as one peels of all the layers one have the glimpse of true self the so called native state. The universe opens up, the magic regained.
    Since the energy mess which held me here it was my anchor point which made me believe I was a human no longer exits. My reality becomes very different.
    As for location the Crab Nebula it’s wonderful energy, it colours is me, I identify with, therefore it is my home. My space and anchor point in the Universe. It is here I will remain.
    I am not one being since I know the viewpoints of others who are call free beings free souls. Yet I am and I am not anything but Infinite.
    The view points are so changeable so easy to be, to do, to have. But one must accept one role in the Universe.

    When one knows one’s own power it’s great magnitude. How it affects the space and all who is within that space, in sessions one learns that. It is a humbling experience and one knows, one is not a leader of many, but a Servant to all. Also in session one learns to differentiate what is power in human view points, reality and in the Universe where is no solidity exists.
    Yes, I will continue have view points expressed here if Geir graciously allow my presence in his space and I will continue write into the Blog which Silvia created for me.
    But I no longer create other games, activity. I do garden if weather permits.
    But where I am is nowhere yet. I have so much to learn. It is only the beginning of my adventures the greatest adventure a being can have because of the Tech.
    The greatest gift one could receive the HOW the” DUPLICATION “since that has given us the knowledge in confrontation. The greatest the most valuable gift we were given to which no equal exits in the Universe.
    Now, Geir will hit me on the head with his baseball bat for being longwinded!!
    If you have the consideration After reading this , like AWE, blow that in your next session I am not better just have different viewpoints. And viewpoints, reality, considerations have no value. But do ask and thank you for doing so.

    1. Elizabeth, thank you so-o-o much! Okay, I confess I do feel some awe, but mostly delight from all you said in your gracious reply. I got your reality much better, I think. And it expanded my…imagination!

      You talked about “anchor points” – it seems LRH chose the term well, anchoring a being as they apparently do. [Geir, I suddenly thought of your epiphany on that earlier blog post, about freedom and urges – it may be more basic than it seemed!] Elizabeth, you also said, “Yet I am and I am not anything but Infinite,” reminding me of something else LRH said: “When the Seventh Dynamic is reached in its entirety, one will only then reach the true Eighth Dynamic.” I’ve wondered if anyone has done this is and there you are!

      Wow, you consider your home to be Crab Nebula – how interesting! Is “home” for you the same as what LRH called “home universe,” do you think? And you said, “It is here where I will remain,” which makes me want to ask – for how long? and will you come back for new bodies to play the human game some more? Maybe this relates to what you said about having more to learn…

      I especially loved – “I am not one being since I know the viewpoints of others who are called free beings, free souls.” I felt some “oneness” just reading that! And on that other intriguing paragraph about the magnitude of one’s own power in the MEST universe – if you will, please say more about that and the sentence: “Also in session one learns to differentiate what is power in human view points, reality and in the Universe where is no solidity exists.”

      I know that old song you mentioned, “Here I go again – taking a chance on love” – light and joyful, like you. 🙂 By the way, my sister tells me she has been reading and very much enjoying your blog, including the stuff about your amazing garden. I consider blogs to be one of my “paths” these days (especially this one, and I’m glad you found it too).

      “I am light,” you told me earlier. I would say that you shed it too! Thank you for answering my questions. (Don’t worry, I think Geir grants a lot of beingness before he gets out the bat. But just a feather bat is all that’s needed for the likes of you and me. 😉 )

      1. Marildi,I will answear all your questions , I need to pull and rerange all cogs on Power. Over the years I had many cogs, the reality have changed over and over again. But
        I believe I have the basic now.
        PS: your “Imagination” is the OT power the ability, the capability to mock up and as you do, expeience the same time, that is the so called game. There is no solidity in that mock up, just pure Life-force. it’s transformation into the MEST the a so called imagination, image, can be made in solid form but the original mock up remains un-seen in the ‘now’ solid form. So you have the OT power, you never have lost it.

        1. Okay, no problem, if and when you are ready to say more, I’ll have my “imagination” ready too.

          And thank you for the validation! 🙂

  49. Hello Geir, Good day to you. I have a realisation why I have looked up your blog. I was pulled in.
    It was delightful to read the heading, your view points.
    As I was reading on there was harmony in the blog, friends exchanging view points, having fun , learning, educating self.
    But in that harmony there was occasionally a bump, literally a bump in the energy flow I scrolled down over and over till i located the bumps it was Vineires writing. It did not feet in.
    First I thought how delightful, yet something was wrong. I went into his space and looked at the action of the energy flows.
    Than I started to bat back what he put out. I know what was he doing. same as you all have known. Challenged OT’s .
    Presented his superior knowledge, which is nothing more than confusion stemming confusion.
    He will not write in your blog for awhile but he reads it. No popcorn.
    He truly believes his knowledge is superior which is fine and I am truly sorry for what I have caused.
    I am not here to pick a fight, There is no fight since what we have in comparison to any eastern religion=believes can not be compared.
    I have written it as usual, long, I can post it for your reading if you care to post it or not will be your choice.
    It is for him Vinaire I could post it in my blog but he picked a well known Blog for OT’s
    I feel the lesson should be on the same pages he has written. He is a student who have challenged that is a no in Buddhism. PS: I Do understand you velcome all view points. So his was welcomed too. Thanks for posting mine too!!

    1. Well, I happen to think Vinaire has made some very valuable contributions. You should check out his blog where he presents one of the most valid forms of therapy and practice I have seen in a long time – the simple but skillful art of pure Looking. And for that I love the guy. As for his rants on the Unknowable… I believe that to be a dead end.

    2. Elizabeth,

      I pick on Vinnie a lot sometimes, but basically I feel he is trying to understand something, as many of us are trying to understand something.

      Currently he seems to be struggling with something(I think of it as ‘the NOT-KNOW thing’) but I think he will get it sorted out.

      He does sound like a chauvinistic Hindu upper-caste Brahmin at times but how many of us have completely transcended our culture? I style myself as the “Feral White Russian from Manchuria”, for example. I really was born there.

      And I have learned from him, and interacting with him has helped me overcome some of my limitations. He is a stubborn cuss, though.

      I’m sure visiting his space as you did can only help, as your being here helps us all. 🙂

      1. Valkov, I think of you as more Ferret than Feral. 😉

        (Ferreting out all the references and links that you post… As I put it on an earlier comment, you are the prolific data scout of the blogs!)

      2. Valcov, Not one being will ever know, How much I have gained BY BEING ABLE TO COMMUNICATE OPENLY. To put my thought, express the reality. THIS one item which connects me to here. A very intricately made implant which have made for me only. I have great difficulty locate the commands since all, every one contain illness, must be silent, no one allow to recognize my presence. Need to hide, I was dumped here 2500 years back. Also in the Implant was given great power but that power to hold me here was in form of so called human power. Become powerfull leaders ETC which I have been But that was done in order to keep me here. Since I have recognised that fact I also have recall who I was before “HERE” But My firts life here as a man which I know a total recall, but I must not speek of. The command are hidden in invisible, they are not connected to any human consideration I dont know how to locate the chard. There is still charge on that life I must as-is before I can be free and leave the body. I have no confict with Vinaire the words he speeks, the thoughts were mine. To write such is agony. But I must I nedd to be free.

  50. Geir,thank you. I too read his blog I too like his view points. I agree that they are…. i cant locate the right words. so i use one of my favorite word fantastic. And have made comments there and read his.

  51. As You have asked about power. Just one of the Cogs. This was back last fall.

    The COG: is a major one and gives a finishing touch

    over the past attainments.

    Every word, every concept, considerations

    [And the major ones are the agreed-upon considerations

    which solidify and it gives more power or takes more power away.

    This in large lumps.] one ever had and have,

    holds the power which one have given, assigned to it in great magnitude,

    in so-called “importance” and that is the only reason

    they do exists and now hold power over the being

    and by which the being is affected by.

    But the largest amount of power the spiritual being had

    that is now scattered all over the Universe, and forgotten,

    it was assigned carelessly not having the knowledge of it’s value.

    It has been given away in indifferent manners when the being, assumed,

    believed, agreed to, supported, tolerated, accepted,

    admitted and granted that others are better, bigger,

    more capable, have more power than himself and therefore one is less,

    below, worthless, powerless, weak,

    not good enough, inferior in any way.

    And, in a reverse manner, when one assumes others are less,

    not good enough, worthless etc….

    and we are better, superior,

    above others and hold power over them,

    A CRIME IS COMMITTED TOWARD SELF.

    In sessions one do as-is these words, concepts, considerations

    and with each little word as-is-ed,

    we gather back the previously scattered power the self worth

    and with that the spiritual being becomes complete.”

  52. Good morning to you Geir. It is a beautiful morning here in BC. A cog I got in session this morning if you care to post it here in your blog if you think it is in line of the reality, please do so. If not, just push the button… Thanks. Elizabeth.
    Morning Cognition, the Great power of Acknowledgement, the solidifier of MEST Universe.
    Something has been bothering me of late on unknown energy floated about which I have not confronted yet. Pulled my attention, it was my reality that I real did not liked to be appraised or do the same to other. Either way I was not comfortable with it.
    A reprimand usually p. me off and appraisals, I always pushed away invisibly. This elusive energy was difficult to locate since it is a positive action so called a good consideration.
    Finally I got it, “ACKNOWLEDGEMENT”.
    That very word drives a stake like anchor point into the center of the beings universe. Further solidifies the CORE=bank which runs vertical in the body. [ if we have problem getting exterior view points, moving out of the body, travel being out of the body, perceive differently, and see other universes well the core=considerations=agreements hold one in place in the MEST, same old story].
    An acknowledgement might confer one is good, doing well, should continue going on the agreed upon considerations, action, since what one is doing is approved by others who usually is close to us and love or likes us. In other words agree, have similar reality level of ours..
    And we look up to these persons with love and admiration and value they opinion, reality and believes. These acknowledgements do hold danger because it anchors “, creates agreement” and holds them in place between two persons or become collective, group agreement, example: which politicians view point pro survival, better therefor lets vote for: that vote solidifies his position in space he is in office for 4 years. Let say, 10 million people voted him in. They too are in the oval office and they too are affected by the president’s action. Furthermore all his further communication will get further acknowledgement, more invisible energy lines, confirmation. Solid they become and remain.
    Same with any other acknowledgement, which we are giving or given by others to us, we too are tied to that being with an invisible line.
    That communication=acknowledgement hold that concept in the MEST Universe, Period.
    Therefore has solidity in form of energy.
    With the so called times passing both will be forgotten, but the invisible lines will remain between the beings so is the act which was acknowledged till as-ised by both parties.
    The positive considerations, pleasure moments which we believe that they are better, since they are not destructive in sense, but they hold more power over the being.
    The pleasure moments pulls the person in over and over again like vanilla ice cream.
    The pleasure moment is the trap which holds the being in the MEST Universe. They have greater power since the pleasure moments are continually re-confirmed=acknowledged, agreed too and the confirmations are the solidifiers to makes that continue and to remain in the MEST.
    The so called “bad” we all want to destroy as-is, but the “good” we nurture. Yet both considerations belong to the MEST universe. They are the implants and they make the game the game, Gives the choice which side one once to play.
    On the Path of Enlightenment, on the Path of Light neither side whatever maybe, “good or bad” has value, since they made up from energy, express energy. MEST IS MEST. OH, to be or not to be!

    1. Very well put. I have been looking at this very same thing for a while now. I agree with you on several levels as follows:

      1. I am wondering if it is the basic comm cycle which synchronizes the physical universe? – So elementary.

      2. I used to read the LRH def of “pleasure moment” and gave it sort of a half ack without understanding its aberrative significance. Well, I must agree with you wholeheartedly about the aberrative value of the pleasure moment. I love how you wrote it, “The pleasure moments pulls the person in over and over again like vanilla ice cream.” -Perfect!

      3. With-out so many considerations in your own universe, you don’t automatically acknowledge the considerations in my universe. This lack of acknowledgement can have different results in my universe. A couple of them are as follows:
      A. If I have no service facsimile to key-in, then the “lack of ack” only prompts me to look. My own consideration is revealed to me and poof-gone!
      B. If I key in a service fac, then I begin to feel the urge to fight to make self right and you wrong for not agreeing.
      C. This is why I postulate the synchronizing value of the comm cycle, the acknowledgement being one component part.
      D. When one person reduces the GPM, the GPM is reduced for everyone. So here in a few sentences, I have made arguments for both One-ness and for Many-ness. I think I agree with Valkov in that it doesn’t matter too much which it is. At least not at the moment and not from this part of our journey.

      4. I so agree with your statement that on the Path of Enlightenment maybe neither “good or bad” has value. I am certain you are right about that one. The polarizing opinions of goodness and badness are lynchpins to the physical universe. The very thought of it makes my stomach twist, and not in a good or bad way! haha!

      1. Chris Dear dont use abbreviations I dont have tech dic. and I have not taken many courses, just what was mandatory, the material to go full OT7. Of course I had taken the basic courses. I was on the gammar course 3 weeks, I could not comprehand the stracture, 6 weeks an Applied S,cholastic do you know there is 32 different defenation of “of”? I had to clear every one. I can hardly spell. I dont have logical side I dont have learning abilities. I cant book learn. I dont no onefull song, just a line here and there. I type with one finger only. The IQ test left side of the brain is logical the right side is art, the Spiritual side I only have one side here the IQ can not be measured it is not measurable. The test was in the U.of Washington. So Abbrevations is like greek. Mytery. The knowledge I have is from other place other time,[ no time existed there], different Universe.And I dont have memory. I am new here, only 2500 years. Thanks! Elizabeth

        1. Oops, when I posted the comment below about recommended reading, this comment of yours about your reading ability hadn’t been posted yet.

          But I must say, you do seem to be able to read and grasp the written posts on philosophical matters. So maybe it depends on interest being high enough! 🙂

          1. Marildi.
            “But I must say, you do seem to be able to read and grasp the written posts on philosophical matters. So maybe it depends on interest being high enough!”
            I looked up the word GRASP, To be sure too understand the meaning and see if I am correct. Yes i can read, I can write also. But What I do is best I duplicate as-in in a instant what I read. Your statement indicates it is you who have not grasped what I have written so far, none Knowledge has no hight, it has levels which is in reality of the being.

          2. Elizabeth, I got the wrong idea – sorry about that! I’m on the reality level that written communication involves the via of words, definitions and grammar. And from what you wrote, I thought you meant that you have trouble with those things. I was guessing that English might not be your first language, maybe French (from your last name), which might then cause some difficulty with English.

            Anyway, no “put down” was intended, I assure you! I just misduplicated what you meant and wasn’t equating that with YOU or your overall abilities. 🙂

          3. P.S. When I said it “depends on interest being high enough,” I meant – interest being of A HIGH DEGREE OR AMOUNT = high interest (which I feel can often get a reader through in spite of any language difficulty).

            I certainly didn’t mean “interest at a HIGH REALITY LEVEL,” but I can see how it could have been read that way – by anybody. That’s the rouble with language – the same words can mean different things! Anyway, hope you didn’t think I meant that.

        2. hahaha! Sorry about the abbreviations. I try to never do that but sometimes when I write some abbreviations just slip out – curse words, too.

          Some of us were discussing why it is that we all can see the same things in MEST. How is it that we can coordinate that MEST can hold still for us and be viewed by us the same way all over the MEST universe.

          My question is if, as we have already been taught in Scientology, that affinity reality and communication are the component parts of understanding? And if this is so, can it be that it is simply that we communicate about what is real to us and this agreement is the cornerstone of reality? No more or less?(As we were already taught as Scientologists)

          I hate being the moron – all the funny looks that I get and all. My question to you is not a “scientific” one. It is directed at your voluminous solo auditing experience into the Terra Incognita.

          Is Affinity, Reality, & Communication the Great Solution to Understanding MEST?

          1. Chris,
            “Is Affinity, Reality, & Communication the Great Solution to Understanding MEST?”
            Not only understanding but that is as-ising if it is done in sessions. Cogs galore!!

            It was my solution. I have written that up in the form of a major cognition. The simplicity of is so simple it is almost incomprehensible [long word] My reality is on the simplicity it has no value, We are used to have great complications, contenual problems. So the simple answers, one can by passes, overlook easily. Please read the Cognition which is posted in my blog. “To walk the walk of solo auditor #2” Bu the way Vinaire is right i am touchy Not so bad as used to be, but I dont claim perfection, If i would be perfect than what? how would I learn from my own short commings, my mistakes, ignorance, I have so many considerations to work on, the only salution i have for that, Since I am on Infinite being definitely have time to correct my major short commings of which even I know. But I wont be able to as-is otheres considerations. So I never be perfect. The trill of being in this universe, total joy, knowing I dont need to be perfect! Chris go read the article!

    1. Hi Elizabeth. Try as I might, I couldn’t find anything to shred either. No shredding, no fun, oh well. 😉

      But I did have a thought about your interest in other viewpoints. You mentioned somewhere that you have not read a lot of LRH, and I was thinking – now THERE is where a lot of related viewpoints can be found! I wonder if you have read (or done so very recently) Scientology 0-8, The Book of Basics, which contains:

      The Factors (“the summation of the considerations and examinations of the human spirit and the material universe” LRH)

      The Axioms (“the central considerations which have been agreed upon” LRH)

      Or maybe your “item” would be:

      The Q’s (“…the level from which we are now viewing, which is a common denominator to all experience which we can now view”; “the top level from which we are now working, the highest echelon from which all other things are derived. Knowledge is a pyramid and knowledge as a pyramid gets itself a common denominator which evaluates all other data below it. At this top point of the pyramid, we have we have what could be called a Q…” LRH)

      I would love to hear how you would relate these basics to your own discoveries.

      1. Marildi
        “I would love to hear how you would relate these basics to your own discoveries”
        I do not relate to any of the material you mention above.
        I don’t own one book, one tape or material in any form,[ When Silvia was she was here,few weeks back,shehas put some material into my computer from LRH which I have not looked at so far I have no idea
        under which stone is hidden for safe keeping. She also brought six plastic containers which I believe are tapes but I have not taken off the plastic wrappers, so I have no idea what is inside.
        From the beginning and from 73, no matter what I read had cognition and that included the TECH Dic.
        I read every word in that Dic. I had to look up the definitions in different Dic.
        I cognised on every meaning.
        So you can see I confronted Ron’s concepts by cognation that concept become mine but in different form=reality of my own universe My own knowledge was realigned not his.
        I was and I am still burning, on fire, with desire to know more.
        I have found, by looking at one’s own universe and dissected every thought, consideration, idea, on every subject of mine and the considerations of others, of which I known of, therefore they too are mine [ simply because I know about] confrontation, examination to the tiniest details we are the only one since we are the one who created all that lovely mass..
        I have learned the basics well. [The basic can and will remove by confrontations, as-ising all the MEST. And have for self.]
        How to confront, how to list, what is the ARC B really means, [The MEST is nothing but one huge ARC B. That is the reason for existence of each individual self-created universe.]
        What are and how the obverts and withhold work.
        How the use of buttons the “suppress”, opens up the well hidden forgotten, till now invisible items, appear in light and can be confronted. I have learned that every experience no matter what happens in one’s own life=universe, is nothing more than a lesson to confront to learn from.
        Because no matter how filthy, dirty, bad unreliable is that item, in effect the layers peeled off by confrontation there is priceless jewel in the form of cognition=knowledge is there.
        Loved the problems the troubles, bring them on I have shouted at the Universe.
        I received what I asked for, had plenty of.
        But what a gift each have brought, knowledge of incomparable magnitude.
        LRH’s knowledge is his, stll belong and it is in his universe.
        What I know is mine. I won’t compare his to mine. It would be not fair to either of us.
        Of the basic knowledge how the MEST universe there are some alignments since the basic is the basic to the MEST. But In don’t know how his black cat looked to him and no one will ever know how mine look like to me.
        So what I know now, I always have known but now I look at things in different light, I know how to duplicate, by as-ising.
        Because I have confronted my universe=the knowledge I have had, by that confrontation new knowledge have re-aligned everything, have removed the false data, the lies, the enforced knowledge in form from, the implants. The immense amount of agreements, consideration which I have had in order to belong to, have to own, to be, to exists, be part of the game.
        The values, the impotence’s were removed. The complications, the confusions, the unknown have gone.
        What is the now? Not much, Intangible the knowledge one is Infinite
        I have learned the basics well and used it well. No comparison is needed, there is no debate of my own on my own. I am just fine how others see they own black cat. Fun we having, yes?

        1. Thank you very much. Exalting post. And thoroughly answers my question!

          I really got that you absorbed LRH’s writings and made them your own – and view them in the context of your own reality. No way I can “shred” that! In fact, I have done something that may be similar – but on a gradient, on my own reality level. Which is to read and later re-read LRH. Each time, I find more and new meaning, peeling off previous “knowledge,” or lack of. I guess this is similar to how a person might be able to audit certain things again and again and get something more out of it each time. Anyway, I’m sure that with more auditing it will be as you have described, peeling off more and more layers of “knowledge,” with reality eventually becoming utterly basic.

          Okay, one point of yours I might try to shred, just for fun – this idea that we can’t know what each other’s black cat looks like. I guess it’s possible that even what I see as “black” is not what black looks like to you. But, Elizabeth! This feels so lonely! Because it leads to – how can I ever know that anyone ever really gets any of my communications? Or vice versa. I guess it all comes down to KNOWINGNESS (as usual!) – that is, if I can believe the notion that occupying their space or becoming one with them, I would KNOW them and their universe. 🙂

          1. Marildi,
            One, never ever can be lonely That concept, consideration stems from the bank, it is MEST related. The “lonely” is created so the being wont leave the game the implant, That feeling-concept alone has enough power to hold the being keep the being connected, to remain, in the MEST. There is no such a thing as lonely or being alone. You believe the Earth is over populated? Well let me inform you……!!!!
            By the way you can love my black cat and I can love yours. What I see is a beautiful being in a very pleasing soft body which have a little motor, which kicks in when one strokes the soft covering and emmanates lovely theta energy flows! Pure Magic!

          2. No loneliness? Oh, good!

            Good thought. I guess it’s just that so far, I am still anchored to the MEST universe and do want to play the game… But I hear you. And I loved your line, “You believe the Earth is over populated? Well let me inform you……!!!!” Funny!

            I like your black cat too. That was a good example of how we exchange (and communicate) – our own creations. And a good example of how there is yet much to marvel (or create) in the physical universe.

  53. NED stands 4 New Era Dianetics and has to do with the body.I believe there is some validity to implanting and incident 2,(but not 2 the airplane/volcano part).But that incident didn’t happen 2 us any way?!It happened to the beings inhabiting the body.I have read to much 8008 maybe,but are we supposed to run out this “bank” in every new body we pick up? (i rather get myself in shape)

  54. PS: about the above, the knowledge which is “ME”? why not debatable not even for my self? It, changes, shifts like the sands dunes of Sahara. I had one of the beautiful, glittering sandgrain an the palm of my hand yesterday and was a glorious sight to behold under the sun, where the hell is it now, where did I put it?

  55. https://isene.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/a-radical-new-view-of-the-upper-scientology-levels-ok-here-goes/#comment-4374

    The following is a general statement. It is not directed toward anybody.

    It is my opinion that a highly evolved person is beyond feeling “put down”. If a person easily feels “put down” and is usually very touchy then that person has a long way to go to be spiritually enlightened. That person is still very protective of some assumed self.

    It is my opinion that OT levels simply stick one more heavily into a SELF.

    One should let the self go.

    .

    1. Vinaire,
      right, you are, but there is no perfection. if one judges where another being is, that consideration is measured to something again to ones own believes, knowledge.
      I believe my univerese is perfact,
      But that is only my consideration therefore it is.[ I am the only one who consider that] So is yours that is your consideration that your knowledge is perfact. that is the reason two universes should not be compared. When comparison enters that is judgement, open for debate. Than again we would take our boxing gloves out of the box. I agree nothing like a good round, something to learn from.

      1. I don’t consider my knowledge to be perfect. That is why I continue to look and document what I observe as I proceed. I am willing to correct myself when I find inconsistency in my observations.

        .

        1. Vinaire,
          Sorry I have caused on MU.
          I was saying my Universe is perfect, my knowledge is perfect.
          BUT, there is a huge BUT!!!
          That perfections only lasts till I hear or read something of which I dont know about or have different reality . Than the Perfection of my universe and knowledge is gone to Hell.
          I am like a little kid in the candy store or in the toy shop.
          That is better than mine, I want some of that, a kilo of this, or mine is broken I need to replace that,the wheel have fallen off.
          Mommy!!!!!!! please by that one for me!!
          Or, I am a prospector looking for gold, how one burns, one is on fire to find the that elusive glint!
          Perfection in my universe lasts only for a fraction of a moment, the considerations changes like the river from one moment to another is only an experience. So is my spelling for you all who read my comments, but that is too part of my perfection.
          Fun, great fun perfaction that it……….. What is perfaction? the very first glimps one has of anything before all the other consideration agreements an different level kick in.
          Than again this is my reality,my perfection of the moment. Go for it you all shred it!!

          1. Well said. And jolly!

            “…the considerations changes like the river from one moment to another is only an experience. So is my spelling for you all who read my comments…”
            Laugh out loud!

            But again no shredding. 😦 Even you and Vinaire are in complete agreement, it seems – still no popcorn! 🙂

    2. Hi, Vinaire. I thought of you in relation to my comment upstream about static vs. theta vs thetan. All of a sudden, your idea about as-ising a viewpoint didn’t sound so strange. That is to say, if what we are calling a viewpoint is the same as what we are calling a thetan, and if the idea I’m entertaining about the actual meaning of thetan (i. e. the actuality) is correct, i.e. maybe a thetan is a mocked-up viewpoint (“in a little bit of mass,” no less – per LRH) and as such CAN be as-ised. But I myself would add – leaving pure static, which you aren’t willing to assume at this point (if I have that right).

      And this conception of mine could point more in the direction of oneness. Or not – maybe like Valkov said, it’s a moot point. Anyway, like I keep saying (harping on, ha ha) – depends on what exactly we mean by the little ol’ words we’re using to communicate! 🙂

        1. I will definitely read it! I have a keen interest in words and language and if life had taken different turns I would probably be something of a wordsmith by now. I’ll watch for your essay. 🙂

          1. I searched on your site – Vinaire’s Blog – and couldn’t find it. Directions, please?

    3. The following is a specific statement. It is directed to the Self. (imagine smiley icon here).

      With all due respect to the beautiful-disaster of ‘semantics’ role in communication of this (verbally transcendental) subject at hand, I would suggest the notion that ‘what ought be let go of’ (as a practical matter in regard to our spiritual recollection) is the sense of the self as being a person. Not the sense of the self as being a Self.

      Personhood is the great bine of Individualized Understanding of our Collective Spiritual Identity for the simple reason it attracts all sorts and manner of idiotic idea’s notions and conclusions that otherwise would not, and do not, appear. Which idea’s notions and conclusions show up in the experiences of our lives. Which is to say, Our Selves.

      Which ‘added baggage'(i.e. psychological, emotional and or physical experiences arising from the fundamentally accepted, though factually false premise, as a practical sense of identity of being), constitutes a huge portion of the psychological territory that Isene, I perceive (and believe and welcome and hope for) is presently working to resolve (in terms of a relatively broadly applicable ‘applied philosophical science’). Or, restated,’a more intelligently sound, workable model’.

      Bottom line: persons do not exist as spiritual identities (e.g. I am ‘Joe Doe’), Spiritual identities exist as persons (e.g. I am). Big difference with a powerful distinction here. Given the subject at hand.

      To wit: In a nutshell, ‘the idea’ of entitiess, being ‘not-i’ identities, that are attaching themselves, for reasons of a spiritual-historic (chuckle) collective event’, or, for reasons of an individual fundamental (multiple lifetime) intellectual and emotional failing (for not knowing how to know, spiritually, ‘just yet’) is but a somewhat comical though creative means of expressing the greater underlying ideas that have to do with our timeless identity, which is to say, our timeless being.

      Or visa versa if you prefer.

      The discovery akin to that of fire, which comes like a bolt out of the blue, prior to the appearance of Dianetics and Scientology (and hopefully quicker thereafter) is the discovery that a ‘person’ is not only a temporarily-created composite of fragmented-points of view, of an author of it, but that ‘you are’ the author of it. Of one and all that appear in the temporary field of your eternal being. Firstly by way of interpretation (via truth), lastly by way of experience (via love).

      And that’s what Siddartha knew. And knows.

      And that’s what Hubbard knew. And knows.

      And that’s what You knew. And know.

      And I what I knew. And know.

      Aw, forget it.

      Lol.

      1. Forget just elementary semantics, your post is requiring a lot of parsing (and chuckles) along the way. But I’ll roll up my sleeves…

        By the way, is your name actually a cryptic misspelling? 🙂

      2. Ahhh,’Person’! Another one of those words which from the time of it’s derivation, has now developed a completely opposite meaning….

        PERSON: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person

        A person (plural: persons or people; from Latin: persona, meaning “mask”

        “Prior to the advent of Christianity, the word “persona” (Latin) or “prosopon” (πρόσωπον: Greek) referred to the masks worn by actors on
        stage. The various masks represented the various “personae” in the stage play, while the masks themselves helped the actor’s voice resonateand easier for the audience to hear. In Roman law, the word “persona” could also refer to a legal entity.
        In his work, De Trinitate, Tertullian became the first person recorded by history to use the word in a quite different way: to signify a being that is, at least in principle, complete, autonomous and fully responsible for his own acts.”

        Thus ‘person’can mean 1. A ‘mask’, an identity one assumes for the time being, for a specific purpose perhaps just for the hell of it, and 2.the person himself,the authentic being, the ‘real self’, the one who wears the mask(s).

        1. Very nice reply Valkov. Thank you. I find the subject of ‘personhood’ fascinating (and appropriate for this thread) as it lies at the heart of self-identity, which lies at the heart of OT phenomena, from my point of view. Perhaps if I can clarify a few of my perceptions/interpretations regarding the subject (of a person), and the importance of it, you (and or any others) can/will offer some additional insights?

          Notwithstanding Tertullian’s arguably astute alteration (or elevation) of the conventional use/definition of the word ‘person’, it seems to me in the absence of an individuals specific awareness of, and conscious acceptance of, Terts ‘newer’ definition, the older definition of what ‘a person’ is, stands. Which strikes me as being fundamentally problematic in regard to individualized spiritual transformation. Long before the level of being OT comes into play.

          If I recall correctly Mr. Hubbard implied, if not flat out stated, that a person ‘is’ the thetan, yes? And even whether if so, or if not, absent any additional specific scientology data on the old vs the new definition of that word, which word near universally lies at the heart of ones sense of self-identity (i.e. self-definition) such an un-clarified stable-datum is fraught with self-deception and danger, in terms of spiritual self-realization.

          One specific phenomena of just such a danger of the word person being misunderstood, would be (and is) for example, a manifestation of an individual that has defined themselves as being OT (with unshakable and absolute certainty), while factually possessing no OT abilities, whatsoever at all. Which renders their self-definition a delusion, as a spiritually practical matter, which delusion they are deeply unaware of. A Spiritual Identity assumed, but not real. Which false assumption is not without cost.

          If and when we take apart the traditional definition of the word ‘person’, piece by piece, we come to the realization that a person is a figment of the imagination of the spirit (or postulate of the thetan). And a temporal one at that. Nothing more, nothing less. An effect. In the absence of such an individual investigation into the meaning of the word ‘person’ however, we unwittingly accept it as being a valid identification of the self. And equate it being the identification of spirit (or thetan). Which error is akin to mickey mouse imagining that ‘he is’ walt disney, rather than being walt disney, knowing that he is merely appearing as being mickey mouse.

          One can witness the antics of numerous (self-proclaimed) OT’s, which demonstrates such truth in spades.

          lamoore

      3. Whew.
        And wow.
        So much philosophical truth, neatly and effectively packed into one intricate and playful, beautiful dance of language. I applaud you!

        (You even stayed on topic! LOL)

      4. Whether you call it “the sense of self as being a person” or “the sense of self as being a self” it seems to be looking at the same thing, only the number of layers loaded on the basic viewpoint may be different.

        .

    4. https://isene.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/a-radical-new-view-of-the-upper-scientology-levels-ok-here-goes/#comment-4378

      Well that is one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that a highly evolved spiritual person wouldn’t covertly show their hostility by carefully referencing their target with hyperlink then making a snide comment under the guise of “not directed at anybody.”

      If you think Elizabeth is being too tough on you, I think it is probably fine for you to say it. At least it would be okay with me.

      In your experience, which OT level that you did would you say stuck you the most heavily into yourself?

    5. Well you guys have totally lost me, on this matter of ‘self’ or ‘Self’ or whatever. Here are some common definitions of ‘self’. Which ones do you suggest be given up?

      http://www.thefreedictionary.com/self

      1. The total, essential, or particular being of a person; the individual: “An actor’s instrument is the self” (Joan Juliet Buck).
      2. The essential qualities distinguishing one person from another; individuality: “He would walk a little first along the southern walls,
      shed his European self, fully enter this world” (Howard Kaplan).
      3. One’s consciousness of one’s own being or identity; the ego: “For some of us, the self’s natural doubts are given in mesmerizing
      amplification by way of critics’ negative assessments of our writing” (Joyce Carol Oates).
      4. One’s own interests, welfare, or advantage: thinking of self alone.

      1. the distinct individuality or identity of a person or thing
      2. a person’s usual or typical bodily make-up or personal characteristics she looked her old self again
      good self (or selves) Rare a polite way of referring to or addressing a person (or persons), used following your, his, her, or their
      4. one’s own welfare or interests he only thinks of self
      5. (Philosophy) an individual’s consciousness of his own identity or being
      6. (Philosophy) Philosophy (usually preceded by the) that which is essential to an individual, esp the mind or soul in Cartesian
      metaphysics; the ego.

      This seems to be a question of how do you conceptualize your own existence?

      I have a couple of other comments on your comments,Vin, which I’ll post separately.

      However, in the context of any given definitions of ‘self’ it makes no sense to give any of them up.

      It would seem to be an imposition of a limitation on oneself, rather than an expansion of one’s ability and beingness. If one is not supposed to be ‘one’s self’ then what is one supposed to be? Something or someone else?

      1. Valkov, I agree that each of these conceptions are useful in expressing the respective idea/concept you want to emphasize or single out.

        But here’s a win I had looking them over. I think each of them fits into one or another of the types of definitions listed in the Logics.
        Descriptive definition: one which classifies by characeristics, by describing existing states of being.
        Differentiative definition: one which compares unlikeness to existing states of being or not being.
        Associative definition: one which declares likeness to existing states of being or not being.
        Action definition: One which delineates cause and potential change of state of being by cause of existence, inexistence, action, inaction, purpose or lack of purpose.

        (Isn’t that analysis brilliant of LRH?)

        Anyway, an application I thought about might be the terms I’ve been thinking about lately – thetan and viewpoint. Seems to me that the definition of thetan is a descriptive definition of self and that of viewpoint is an action definition of self. That’s as far as I got, but it’s now 11:00 pm here…zzzzz

        1. It seems absolutely brilliant to me, who am a very concrete person.. I have always been amazed at how well he could think on highly abstract levels.

      1. Here is an excerpt from recently published letter by Phil Spickler that may be relevant, as he speaks in it of “ego”:

        > > “Speaking personally :

        The accumulative effect of putting a being at cause of all the unwanted conditions
        in their life, by concentration on Flow Two, namely, what they have done or caused, and are now
        consciously or un-consciously withholding, has the effect of peeling off layers of valences. Valences assumed,
        to acommodate actions or non-actions, deemed so discreditable, by
        consideration, that the being no longer wishes to be what they were
        being, when the dis-creditable occurred.

        Gradually the being will start the path back to being what they were before living
        a life that took them further and further away from their pure and radiant, native state.

        The degree to which the above is accomplished is the degree of result that the person you are auditing will attain in the direction of recovering the considerations that caused their personal dwindling spiral.

        This understanding will help auditors to audit, since it will make it easy to see
        what humans, in general, are suffering from.

        Auditors with that vision are able to see their pcs, as they might be, when they recover from the considerations they formed about being at cause and the effects of their cause, that have brought about a loss of self esteem in a most basic manner.

        Having reached a state where I was un-afraid to be without a defensive structure built
        to hide behind, I can report that such a state makes life seem quite different than when I was
        viewing it through the gun ports of my fortress.

        Its a naked, but imperishable feeling, that words can only hint at.

        Compassion is a word that points toward that which I am attempting to express.

        As a being is stripped of the many valences that make up the Ego—- the Ego diminishes as
        the real Being re-emerges and regains a sense of self as something that cannot be harmed.

        In another letter I hope to tell about life after the Death of the Ego ( the false I ).

        Best to all,

        Phil

        1. OK. It is the subject of self that seems to interest me currently. I plan to apply to it what I have written in KHTK 13: LOOKING AT KNOWLEDGE. It seems to be a viewpoint that hardens as an ego. The hardening layers are the various considerations fixed in place. Beginning considerations seems to be the viewpoint reflecting on itself as being a thetan, soul, etc., or even contemplating on a native state. These considerations get fixed in place as a basic identity. Yes, a thetan to me is an identity. God is also an identity. The basic identity may then express itself as many, many more identities as it starts to acquire more and more layers of considerations. These are being referred to here by Phil as valences. One need to look at these layers and let them unstack themselves. Being non-resistive and non-judgmental are the key aspects of looking. Please see KHTK 1: INTRODUCTION TO LOOKING and other KHTK issues.

          .

        1. Thanks Elizabeth. I really like this section in the second link, on ‘Jungian understandings’, so here’s the whole thing:

          “In Jungian theory, the Self is one of several archetypes. It signifies the coherent whole, unifying both the consciousness and unconscious mind of a person. The Self, according to Jung, is realized as the product of individuation, which is defined as the process of integrating one’s personality. For Jung, the self is symbolized by the circle (especially when divided into four quadrants), the square, or the mandala. The Wise Old Woman/Man can also serve as ‘a symbolic personification of the Self’.[9]

          What distinguishes Jungian psychology from previous iterations is the idea that there are two centers of the personality. The ego is the center of conscious identity, whereas the Self is the center of the total personality—including consciousness, the unconscious, and the ego. The Self is both the whole and the center. While the ego is a self-contained little circle off the center contained within the whole, the Self can be understood as the greater circle.

          The Self besides being the centre of the psyche is also autonomous, meaning that it exists outside of time and space. Jung also called the Self an imago dei(image of God). The Self is the source of dreams and often appears as an authority figure in dreams with the ability to perceive the future or guide one in the present.”

          I relate this to Dianetics theory about “AP” and “BP”. The “self” includes both. It is the ‘whole person’. BP is a vast ocean of theta upon which AP (the ego, the worldly identity) floats like a little child riding an elephant. No, more like a flea on an elephant’s back!

          BP is Georg Groddeck’s “It”.

          Notice Jung’s definition of ‘individuation’ is quite the opposite of Hubbard’s definition of the same word.

        2. Valkov.
          that “bellow” did not look right, so I look it up, the word, below= under, that what i meant. I bet all of you have fun on my account on my perfection. The problem is or was,in hungarian we do not need to spell, we write the same way as we pronounce the words, yet I was the worst in my class writting in hungarian. I could not spell where one not needed to spell. The left side was missing already, born without.

          1. It’s a game – OK, what did Erzebeth say here? I don’tmind.

            Because your intention is clear, your meaning comes through clearly. Here is a song and picture you might like:

            RIPPLE by Robert Hunter music by Jerry Garcia

            If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine
            And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung,
            Would you hear my voice come through the music,
            Would you hold it near as it were your own?

            It’s a hand-me-down, the thoughts are broken,
            Perhaps they’re better left unsung.
            I don’t know, don’t really care
            Let there be songs to fill the air.

            Ripple in still water,
            When there is no pebble tossed,
            Nor wind to blow.

            Reach out your hand if your cup be empty,
            If your cup is full may it be again,
            Let it be known there is a fountain,
            That was not made by the hands of men.

            There is a road, no simple highway,
            Between the dawn and the dark of night,
            And if you go no one may follow,
            That path is for your steps alone.

            Ripple in still water,
            When there is no pebble tossed,
            Nor wind to blow.

            You who choose to lead must follow
            But if you fall you fall alone,
            If you should stand then who’s to guide you?
            If I knew the way I would take you home.

            La dee da da da, la da da da da, da da da, da da, da da da da da
            La da da da, la da da, da da, la da da da, la da, da da.

    6. @ Vinnie:

      “It is my opinion that a highly evolved person is beyond feeling “put down”. If a person easily feels “put down” and is usually very touchy then that person has a long way to go to be spiritually enlightened. That person is still very protective of some assumed self.”

      Don’t be so hard on yourself Vinnie.
      The above seems like an unnecessarily demanding standard. Maybe even a false standard.
      Seeking to be ‘highly spiritually evolved and enlightened’ may, after all, be just a status-seeking egoistic trap.

      I also recall when I worked in psych, we took the view that if we felt ‘put down’ by someone, it could well be because we were perceiving, through our emotional apparatus, the person’s actual intention to put us down.

      This is a very subjective area, of course.

      And about this:

      “It is my opinion that OT levels simply stick one more heavily into a SELF.”

      Poor Geir. He must be pretty heavily stuck into a SELF, huh? Having done all those OT levels that he has….

    7. Vinaire; I want to thank you. if not for your comment, Valkov article in which there is a word Defence Difencive. I never looked at that word before, a Gift from Heaven. Thank you all. So far I have look at in sessions every kind walls, barriers, invisible and solid, yet not once I ever thought of defence, diffending whatever. Great win.+cog.

      1. You comment here says a lot about you, Elizabeth. Not that it was surprising, just wanted to say so. 🙂

        And thank you back!

  56. GEIR Isene You have asked.
    •”If the theory behind the OT levels as laid out by LRH is true, then we would have a large number of beings turning up for auditing that were ready to run a very different process than the ordinary Bridge (as covered in OT VI material). But we do not see that. Except for some loose rumors, not one single being has been verified as having showed up out of the estimated more than 200 million. This is a discrepancy like no other.
    Since I have not searched for others and not known if others searched and have found the way out of the Confusing mass: the OT levels. I have spent my years doing the search alone.
    As I learned and know what works and not only for me but on any one who is in the MAST who has the human considerations and the believes that they are Human. Human that concept is a concept more likely the very title of the implant. “HUMAN IMPLANT; how it works, what are the effects, how to download etc..
    The OT Materials were great disappointment, left me on the cloth line out there in the cold rainy day, wet and shivering.
    I did not have the OT III Material; I had to fake it to be allowed to continue with the rest of the OT levels.
    After all was done,[ OT levels] I was more than disappointed, I could describe my condition, lost, confused, upset, depressed, totally unhappy, let down, empty, since my hope, my dreams were not realized. End of the road? Bull dodo!
    But I have had great wins at the start when audited by field auditor than in the Vancouver Mission, and the lower levels at ST Hill.
    When I got back home to here in Vancouver, I taken out the Emeter and started solo again, I had to.
    I knew, I had great wins I learned a lot; MY track was totally open not just in understanding of MEST but past into the real universe to the Theta universe.
    I started; it was not easy since there were no directions to fallow. Yes there were in the form of knowing that the tech worked, the taste of cognition lingered in my universe.
    And the intriguing knowledge that I lived before had other lives!!
    Therefore there is a continuum a future, more than just waiting for the cremation of the body. [How many times I have recalled, I was seating top of my own grave as a GHOST and wondering what next? ]
    But I have worked diligently, and discovered I could do my own listing, than I cognized on the item which is written and used by every person being ever audited but I am not sure just how few realizes that question alone could and can dismantle any implant all the considerations, all the agreements in other word: the WHOLE MEST.
    But no one care to know [two OT doing fantastic because my discovery plus ones OT’s wife who is “only” clear. She left the church in total mass, now is having time of her life and handling her own case her own universe. When anything comes in to her life she confronts it and bingo. She is on way again!
    But I am not being heard of what I have achieved since it was not written by RON. “BUT I do use the tech in a very simplified version.!!!!!!!!!!
    I stepped off the PATH OF CONFUSION so what I ever I do cannot be right.!!!!!!!!!
    The opinions who totally into the tech, can “quote” every word ever been written by LRH, YET they case is stuck in the writing the learned words. But are they right? Lets examine their case levels.
    One thing we, who use this method we know that no levels needed, numbered and each individual can take responsibility for they own universe.
    Yes, I would alter the bridge; there would be no numbered items.
    Each being who is reaching for the so called “TOP OF THE CHART” in my believe, everyone one is strong, powerful, capable to handle their own universe.
    Otherwise they would not be looking, would not have the need for the search.
    THE PATH of KNOWLEDGE is wide open, for anyone to walk an.

    Thank You. Elizabeth

  57. Marildi, no problem if there would be any I would be very happy to solo out the item to have one more cog. What Grammer? I cant comprehand writting structure, it is a learned, tought form. Not having logical side= human implants do give interesting experiences. But they have become my learning experiences. The understanding how the MEST Universe is alined with the Spiritual Theta Univere, in my own reality. Thanks, and I do love you.
    PS: Hamre is Norwegian name. Elizabeth in Hungarian is Erzsebet

    1. Well, I love you too!

      I get what you mean, lack of grammar was sort of a blessing in disguise for you. That’s the way so-called “stops” often work, don’t they,

      Norwegian (like Geir!) and Hungarian, huh? I’m Scottish and Russian, mother’s mother from Russia and father from Vancouver BC (like you!). I only ever met one other person (other than my own relatives) who was that combination. Yours is probably unusual too.

      Thanks, “Erzebeth”. (I’ll have to call you that once in a while.) 🙂

        1. Pierre in a couple of weeks (as he is conveniently coming to Norway – otherwise I could have chosen Ray or Otfried or…)

          1. Thank you. Love your openness, Geir. You don’t seem to have many reasons to “withhold” things. 🙂 Freedom of information is your consistent motto.:-)

    1. Okie dokie.

      By the way, could you go back to posting under the comment, unless maybe it gets too long and unwieldy. That way the whole sub-thread is before our eyes, and also we don’t have to go back and forth and lose our place. I speak for the non-techies. 😉

      1. Unfortunately, I can’t do that when I am at my laptop. The “Reply” doesn’t show up on it. So, I use this alternate method.

        .

        1. Got it. Okay, but try to post your replies on your desktop when you can. You don’t want to lose your fans. 🙂

  58. Geir, I have posted a article About the future of the Earth as I have seen it. Silvia asked to post this addition in her blog, If you care to have your readers to read this please post it here to. This is not to cause fear but to ponder.

    Thanks Silvia! Since it is the future I have seen,
    The Ghost, of the Planet Earth. Read the rest in my blog.
    I recommend that all who wish to attain some different level of reality.
    Those who wish to get out of the MEST Universe, get going on all levels, take some courses have auditing than solo.
    I don’t predict the so called “END OF THE WORLD.” It has its natural life span. Same as our self’s and other souls, persons, spiritual beings whatever…. Who have on ownership, a name tag connected to a body.
    I have not seen the “YEARS” the amount, till the Earth will be here. That would have the same importance as spiritual beings having a body and years.
    The Earth has it so called” Soul”, it is a spiritual being.
    Ask, you can locate her and many other beings who believe they too are the Earth,
    I have audited a few.
    I have given session to “Mother Nature” you should have heard her Cognition before she left the sector!!!
    Weather changes? I think about it.
    The souls who believe in aesthetics who are the Earth, that wonderful energy flow which you experience in the woods, in the wilderness, when out there one can experience of the “oneness”, the wonderful beings who losing their harmony because of the pollution, disruptive energy created by the humans of self and in solid form , which overwhelms the Natural collective spiritual energy of the Earth.
    Go to my blog and do read the article, and ponder where one would be if not as on OT look on from distance and have the ability to create?
    Elizabeth Hamre.

  59. From Chris: he would like to have different reality on the Theta Universe after reading my last post, his question is unique. Geir, if you care to post for others to read, there could be interest on the item.

    ” But back to your lovely story. Beyond the enjoyable environment, tell me about what we do, an example of an activity in which to participate in that future. I want to say “games,” but in your creation – well, maybe you can say more to adjust my reality to synchronize with your own. Then I will have a better idea. The patter of life, away from the MEST universe, away from the “eat” and the “eaten” leaves me blank. And I am interested in your story about your vision of the future.”

    Chris I don’t know your track, I have no idea what is your basic personality. Where the road takes you after washing away the dust from the long journey,in form of experiences of what have you collected.
    When you will have your final cognition, your realization who you are, where is your place in the universe,
    The view point from which from that moment on you will view the present, the future, that view point will be the source of your games.
    That moment is in ones reality the greatest moment, since one entered into the Physical universe to experience to play the game.
    That moment when the circle will be completed you will touch the entry point again into the Universe.
    But there will be the difference you will have knowledge. You will know, understand your power, and know the reasons, the whys and the how’s. You will simply know.
    The game you will play? What ever you will see and you will decide if you care to play or not, be the Creator or all the players at the same time or just cheer on the side line. Chris, there is no time in the Theta Universe, How long is forever?

  60. Valkov. Thank You. I do!
    I am lost for words than………..!
    Than the springs bubbles up,
    [Have you seen a spring in the meadow where water bubbles up from depth of the earth among the tall green grasses and there are daisies, buttercup, bachelor buttons and here and there a red poppy? Have you experienced the fragrances of the heated earth and the greens?
    The sounds of beating of thousands of tiny wings, the insects, that sound envelops the terrain becomes one with all, the creation, the harmony, beauty in abundance!
    As one kneels beside the spring and looks at the silver bobbles as air too is bubbling. The bubbles, like liquid silver polished by the rays of the sun, you bend down but don’t want to touch that purity with your hand and you drink, slurp the liquid , the water is sweet and cool, you drink and drink you want to inhale all which is bellow the earth and the terrain around you.
    Self-do not exists, there is the sunlit terrain the sound of the harmony, the breeze kiss you, holds you in embrace. Here one loses the self the human side, all considerations. Times stops and there’s only the meadow………..]
    The words the water flows once more and carries me on its back and I experience again the bubbling evanescent of the creation the life-force my own creation. Good grief, Elizabeth there you go again!
    Here at this blog I have found friends, not in sense they are new to my universe, since I know there is no such a thing in the universe as strangers.
    Only different considerations, like opposite, agreements and playing the game “opposite, different side’” the considerations that such a thing exists as opposition or distance, strangers etc..
    Simply by eliminating such viewpoints, we discover we again have reality on what others believe in we have experiences to share.
    We can enjoy being in others universe once more look around there and discover their knowledge which they have collected on their long journey. We have our friends back again and we walk on the same Path. Thank You, I am learning .

    1. Oh, Elizabeth. You may not always spell the words correctly but the words you PICK are from the most beautiful flowers of language. (This in itself is a sort of mastery of words that few have.) And then you COMBINE those words into such exquisite bouquets, tossed to the lucky reader.

      You see how you inspire, up towards your aesthetic wave length? 🙂

      1. Marildi, far away there is a great library, in there in one magnificently ornate room on long tables there many huge books open, volumes and volumes, the collection of my writtings which are still existing. I was honored by others who have valued my words and bound the daily articles, the pages into beautifuly illustrated, and painted wonder. The wonders as i have seen the Universe and through my reality i have given the readers the adventure in different reality. The is one title for the many volumes,it is very simple and was given by otheres. ” Our Dreams” I am who is honored.

      2. +1

        The first rule of communication must be to have something to communicate. Elizabeth has this in plenty.

        Some people have something low-toned to say and try to prop it up with beautiful language. But if you have elegant concepts such as Elizabeth’s then the spelling words become less important.

        1. Chris, your comment brought to mind the Art Series, which I just read not long ago. There is a communication to deliver, and then there is the tech for doing it. Both are needed, but per LRH “The communication is the primary target. The technical quality of it is the secondary consideration.”

          1. I haven’t heard the Art Series mentioned in ever so long. And I love those writings!

            Reading your comment reminded me that the definition of art as “technical expertise sufficient to create an emotional impact” wrote itself indelibly on my soul and I think with it every day. That one statement has taken mystery out of art for me and allowed me to enjoy every kind.

          2. I haven’t heard anyone mention the Art Series in ever so long. LRHs definition of art as “technical expertise sufficient to create an emotional impact” is written on my soul and affects the way I look at things every day. I understand why I both enjoy and criticize every type of construct based on this.

          3. Well, no wonder I recognized an Art Series concept in your comment.

            And I agree, amazing the doors that are opened when truth is presented to you.

        2. Chris, I was silent since 82 till last august.I was closet cleaning in the form of soloing. So much trash, that stuff was not even good enough for garage sale.

  61. Since You are all so wonderful and cheering me on, I cant invite you and cook luch for you since you so far away in body. But I offer a morsel, not food for the body but the other kind!
    Once upon a time, long ago and far away, in the Crab Nebula, when time had no meaning, or existence.
    The domain of the Crab Nebula was under the protection of the Grand Wizard Wo-Y.
    The balance the harmony was his, was Wo-y the Nebula or the Nebula have become Wo-Y?
    There were many who lived played within that boundaries, after all it had many world, sun, galaxies with in the galaxies. Nebula is a very spacious playground.
    There was every kind of games to be had, naturally, since it was part of the Universe, but solidity was yet have come into fashion.
    The Wizard did not judge, held no viewpoints Wo-Y, was just simply there.
    So life went on whatever, that was up to the players of the game to be, to do, to have or not, to each his own.
    The Crab Nebula was well known throughout the universe as the loveliest creation in the Universe. Beauty in abundance.
    Many had dropped their game in other part of the universe with that the their body which went with that game in order to be here and to join and , become the part of Wo-Y universe therefore they to have regained the purity of the soul, the innocence of self.
    Within the boundaries games went on, continued. This story is about twins, brothers, and the lack of knowledge.
    There were two brothers, twins, Patek and Shrapoo.
    They were the handsomest pair of rouges the Universe ever seen and contained. In their travels criss-crossed the Nebula over and over they loved the chaos, the turbulent energy, to cause surprises, make thing vanish, or just move things which would not be move and hid items into nothing, behind invisible curtains.
    In that they found great joy, to make things invisible. Of which did not belong to them. They played hard and had the right to do so. Up to a point where the pranks affected others who did not agreed to the same game.
    What a mock up this two handsome men had! If there were female heart surly they have speeded up the beat in great speed at the sight of these culprits.
    The brothers enjoyed the heavy energy the very opposite of the look the beautiful mock-up they presented. In their wanderings they have picked up, from someplace evil intentions, destruction, which did not allowed other games to be, to continue. Responsibility was not included in the games which the two were playing.
    The turbulentions of their space have grown and the affects were noted by the Grand Wizard. The balance, the Harmony of the Crab Nebula becomes jeopardized.
    There was small Planet among the many in the Nebula this small planet was called Gregoria. This beautiful creation was the heart and the very soul, the domain of the Grand Wizard, the inner sanctuary of the Crab Nebula.
    Of course who ever wished to be there was welcomed too. The Planet was mostly a garden, lake, waterfalls and Great Hall in the gardens where art was expedited at all times. . For lovers of beauty and by creators who were beauty in self. Here in this garden where the magic was in pure form. Eons brought no change, here was for ever.
    If one entered into the sanctuary of the Grand Wizard its pure power of the space melted away all other energy flows.
    Here one could become self again the original the Intangible the Infinite. But there was one interesting thing about this sanctuary, in garden only the change could happen if the being who entered wanted the change.
    The culprits, the beautiful rouges were transported into the garden by they own agreement.
    There were few rules in the magical garden which in actuality lives in every soul.
    Love of the game and the understanding no matter what one is doing it is only for a moment of experience. No more.
    Therefore the solidity will never be., never be.
    The beautiful culprits had more than one thing in common. Not only the beauty of their gorgeous mock, up the love of heavy energy to experience, the thundering energy flows, but love of sparkling gems. They sacked the universe collecting hording beautiful things. The “want”, to own, was they crime.
    The twins each had a beautiful huge sapphire imbedded into the upper side in they left wrist. The stones were a perfect match same as they personalities.
    In the garden the two appeared, but not in human form[ no solidity here existed yet in the Crab Nebula] they in an instant they have become monkeys in form.
    Lesson 1: learn that all is a game! [No more lessons, since there is only one rule!]
    You should have seen them as they rolled, wrestled by the lake become one big ball of brown fur rolled around in the green emerald grass, only laughter was heard and the flashing of the blue sapphire light could be seen..
    Here the two have retuned and learned once more to know the meaning, love to play. As the so called time passed the Wizard looked on, observing the changes.
    The energy flows of the twins when arrived were ball of grey energy mass. Now, he noted the grey has become transparent and then as more transformation was taking place the grey become less and less turned to white mist than the sparkles; the life-force was growing.
    He noted the twins have become separated , Patek have changed and now was truly a beautiful spiritual being, the twin brother Shrapoo’s mock-up remained the same, as when he have entered the garden.
    Wo-Y wondered what was happening what was the reason one brother have changed and the other not? Since they were identical in every way!
    Grand Wizard looked on as Patek regained the Theta the Self and Shrapoo melted into the nothingness of the Universe. Into the Wizard universe, unknown, mystery entered.
    As Patek looked on with silence as his twin disappeared, tears rolled down on his face [this was his first experience of loss from the many yet to come.] To where tears have fallen on the ground, for the first time there were flowers grown out of his loss, the Tears become Forget-Me-Not.
    After a while the Wizard too has become a wanderer, searching for different games different reality.
    He have found out because of understanding the TECH. There was only one being Patek, who mocked –up a playmate a twin.
    And when he regained self he did not needed that mock-up any more to share the game and after all it was only a game!
    . And The Grand Wizard, WO-Y?
    Well, he had to solo Hell of a lot of hours to found the way back to the garden. You see the bread crumbs he left behind were crumbled by the passing of time.
    He too learned what learning means. Now, after so many experiences were created and had, now he too truly understands what has happened in his garden. He knew that Patek a spiritual being created the twin, the self to play the game with. That creation was the dark mass and that dark mass which have disappeared, melted away in the magical garden. Nothing died, no one was gone. Just a game ended.
    In my garden the Forget-Me-Not are in bloom. It is a small garden yet the universe is within.
    Elizabeth, aka Wo-Y.

    1. I am thinking that some of the charm of your writing can be lost if edited by another. Just continue in your own words – we’ll figure it out just fine.

      1. Chris thank you, Thank God we finally got back to the original point “figure-figure”. I rub my hands in delight aha, a combinition of points and circles and lines……………

    2. Charming, delightful, enchanting story! My favorite parts:

      “There was only one being Patek, who mocked-up a playmate a twin. And when he regained self he did not need that mock-up any more…” This is right on topic and speaks to Geir’s original post. And speaks to my personal liking as well.

      And the other favorite part: “Elizabeth, aka Wo-Y.” 😀

      1. This is not confession, this here you read is on OT’s Life
        Where IS no track, where there is no time!

        Do have had many wonderful adventures but there is the other side!
        You real think and believe I only walked under the halo, only in light?
        In my wanderings wrapped;in cloak of power,
        I searched for adventures far and wide
        Since there was so much to have, so much to see most of all, many, many to be!
        As I wandered, I walked among the many flowers, picked a large bouquet of greed,
        For ever, I changed with that first breath,
        no longer I wondered who I should be
        I wished for greatness and fame,
        I wished to be rich and truly I become vain
        For long, I walked in the valley of that dark, the Devil was my only guide
        I walked alone in the unknown and walked for long, long time
        I set on his throne and his domain become mine,
        Here, I was the king, my sceptre was the might,
        Oh, how I loved that power, how I loved that bloody sight!
        Wait till I write, how I, Attila have ridden the steppes of wide!!!
        Aka.. aka…aka………..Elizabeth.

          1. And here is one from Mongolia. I can hear the horse in this one too. There is authentic Tuvan throat-singing in this one. Huun Huur Tu is a Tuvan group of musicians that tours the world. Being Huun, they are probably distant relatives of yours!

          2. Valkov. Thank YOu!!!
            From the first moment on the tears……….. the faces of my beloved brothers all who I lived with and the ones who I have had slaughtered.
            I was transported. The half-naked warrior that was me and still I am as I have seen myself in the mirrored water.
            I still have that strength, I am that warrior I am that power. This life, in the” now”, I used, but not the sword and whip, but the auditing questions were the deadly arrows which I have aimed at every consideration, and every agreement.
            I have relentlesly hacked, ransacked, torn, shredded The MEST Universe apart! The fires which I have lit now are seen across the Universe!
            As Attila, in agony, a tormented soul, that agony was handled in Dianetics
            But the true healing of self as a soul not was to long back when my heart was returned.
            Before that I was haunted and I haunted.
            My Empty Heart
            I have seen myself over the aeons
            I have heard the sounds of my cry
            As I have searched for the contents of my soul.
            The contents of my now empty heart.
            My sobs were the echo, the the emptiness
            I have heard thousands of times
            As I a lonely soul searched in vain
            As I flown across the endless blue,
            of the endless indigo night.
            That infinite, that void, that blue night was the reflection
            Of my now empty heart.
            Here in this space here,
            Only the sobs from the depth from my soul
            Echoed among the stars.
            Searched in highs and in the lows,
            In every blade of grass,
            In the deep waters blue,
            In wintry days in icy nights.
            Flowers have no secrets, birds sing they own songs.
            I asked, addressed every tree, every cloud and each stone,
            I asked every being living,
            The quiet ones the dead, now unknown.
            Relentlessly searched for eon’s asked millions of times
            Please, do you know how could I find the contents of my empty heart?

            PS: That life is one of the reasons I humbly ask for universal forgiveness.
            Bu I have a far greater crime.

  62. TO All, who is in search for different reality, in search of they own Spring of Truth.
    I do not write to attain, admiration, glorification, fame or to be applauded.
    I have no need to tell tall tales of old and the past, I don’t write to glorify self of what I have done and to advertise the name tags which were on that body that past life.
    But I will use my names, if I that will take to attain the purpose of my writing.
    Since I know, Fame has great value in the MEST Universe.
    That value is a motivator to do and to have!
    I still write for the same purpose as I have written my fist article,
    “To Walk the Walk of a Solo Auditor”
    In last Augustus in Silvia’s blog that article, describes the changes, become my wins as I have summoned up Part of this life that is that story, 38 years of it.
    The point was then and I still is
    “ I WRITE IN HOPE TO INSPIRE”
    every being who reads the adventures of on OT to continue on their journey of self-discovery to take the next step.
    That decision is everything, half of the battle.
    Every time I put that single letter down “I” that is an arrow pointing toward the Technology!
    with that” I” when I write of, about, is only a very small sample what one can be, achieved in one’s universe where there is no limitation.
    By taking one step toward ones goal, by taking courses being audited and to continue with solo after the OT levels
    The “I “ the, meaning, becomes so different in the Theta Universe.
    Yet, the “I” is only there because of the Technology, for the glorification of the Technology, to demonstrates it works and it is yours to use.
    To regain your own magical Universe!
    PS: wonderful acknowledgements the admirations I receive, now have very-very different meaning as it was in the past,now has value in different sesnse!
    It is truly a humbling, to know I have attained the state which inspires and unites in the band of aesthetic, where reality seldome differs.

    1. Elizabeth, our comments show that you are achieving your purposes here, and with the post articles on your blog too. Thank you!

      1. Marildi, Untill one small shub reamains and cant move because the “solidity, of which its seed was planted” 2500 years back. Amends I need to make. Words hold more power and enslaves, kills more souls than the swiftness of sword. I have wielded the might of both.

  63. I should say from the start that I do not believe in Scientology or even the existence of the soul. It is also my opinion that Scientology’s processes work (when they do) primarily due to the placebo effect, and that one’s own interpretation of “clear” or “ot” are what one will deem oneself to have achieved as a result of practicing Scientology.

    I do believe that there are steps that any individual can take to help make that individual feel more at ease and more oneself.

    In my teens I began researching the science of neuroplasticity as it might relate to generating long-term states of ease, wellbeing, and even (one might say) integrity. I figured that, if neuroplasticity is true, then it should be possible to push one’s personality in one direction or another as a function of exercising and practicing those behaviors which would be conducive to such brain changes.

    For example, modern culture has a way of making us want to succeed and to fear failure. I realized that this social stigma is in many ways bad for me. By fearing failure, I decided I may be preventing myself from taking risks that could ultimately prove beneficial to my wellbeing. To make the proper neurological changes to rid myself of this irrational fear, I simply began to act as if I had no fear of failure.

    I did the same thing with social embarrassment. For example, I used to have a proclivity towards shyness. To rid myself of this, I would walk up to strangers during the daytime and ask them which star was the North star (one of the more colorful examples).

    I can truly say now that I have no fear of embarrassment. I have zero shyness. I can (and do) walk onto a stage and give a presentation in front of hundreds with literally zero hesitation or nervousness. Is this because I have altered the connections in my brain? In my opinion, it probably is. But of course that’s just my opinion, and I don’t have a way of proving this.

    I have also found that contentment is just a thought away. By choosing not to dwell on factors that would otherwise cause me stress, I have reached a point where I automatically feel contentment essentially all day every day. This is not ecstatic happiness (like the feeling one might get after winning the superbowl), but a constant, simple ease. This must of course be balanced with a healthy regard for action. I should not, I feel, simply be content and not taking action. I like to think of it as being a large tree with large roots: the hidden roots represent the integrity and contentment, and the exposed body of the tree represents the actions. To me, being like a Buddhist monk is equivalent of the tiny shrub with wildly extensive roots: you can kick and pry that shrub and it will never budge, but the shrub does not have as many effects on the wellbeing of the fellow trees around it. (Of course, if you want to be the tiny shrub, by all means that is your choice! 🙂

    It takes practice, but in my opinion anyone can, with training, reach the point where they have trained themselves to act with total integrity. These days, I speak and act openly and freely without hesitation in accordance to my internal value system, and if other people find anything unappealing in my behavior or personality, it does not bother me for even an instant.

    1. I find it amusing that the Placebo effect is so easily dismissed or used as a way to discredit – rather than giving it due credit as the magic it truly is.

      You may want to check out my article “On Will“.

    2. “I should say from the start that I do not believe in Scientology or even the existence of the soul.”
      I wonder I wonder, and wonder why do you bother read this Blog?

      1. Yes, that was my thought too, SolidarityWithin. You might find more kindred folks (not souls of course :>) in a Psychology-oriented blog… Probably a very high portion of the souls here know they are spiritual beings and know that at least some parts of Scientology work beyond any placebo effect. The disagreements are in the details, not whether souls exist.

    3. Solidarity,

      There’s nothing to believe in. Scientology is just a set of tools and practices some of which you have already discoverted or thought of and have already been doing.

      You are not alone. There are many people who, like you, naturally have “their shit together” and find ways and techniques and practices and exercises to achieve the personal changes and growth they want.

      You don’t “need” scientology. You might enjoy some parts of it, or find some ideas or practices useful. But you don’t “need” it.

      I don’t “believe” in scientology either. But I do really enjoy listening to Hubbard’s lectures and usually get a new POV on some aspect of life from those. Naturally, since he has his own unique POV, his very individual ‘take’ on things.

      Drop in any time!

      1. Valkov,
        There are many people who, like you, naturally have “their shit together” You so right. There are so many incradible and wonderful beings here and their shit is together.

    4. SolidarityWithin, I enjoyed your post and thought you had some interesting viewpoints, and experiences. Would it surprise you to know that it actually sounded pretty “Scientological”?

      Except for maybe one thing – your last paragraph, ending with “… and if other people find anything unappealing in my behavior or personality, it does not bother me for even an instant.” Let me chide you a bit and ask, isn’t that not unlike the Buddhist Monk or the tiny shrub with wildly extensive roots?

      By the way, not everyone here is a Scientologist. Some once were, some never were. But many of those who read and post on this blog are Scn’s, so the first comment on your post may not have gotten you off on the right foot! But I’m sure you will be a welcome contibuter with comments like the majority of your post – once we get to know you, and if you are interested.

      1. There are plenty of people reading this blog who are not Scientologists and are not interested in Scientology. JFYI.

        1. And I don’t doubt it. I should have said the commenter may not have gotten off on the right foot “with some of the readers” here. With some others he probably got agreement!

          1. P.S. If that sounded like I’m not in favor of many viewpoints being expressed – not so. Just the opposite. It makes for a good discussion.

  64. Geir, Good Morning to you. [morning here] Are interested to continue posting more of what I see and how I see the Universe. All of them of course stem from cognitions, some MEST oriented and some of them very new in reality. Please let me know. Elizabeth

  65. Solidity!!!! The subject is The Solidity.
    Ever since I joined the group and learned about matters great and small and what effects they have on a Spiritual Being, I was greatly interested in that intriguing item.- The Solidity.
    The Solidity of the MEST Universe.
    Most intriguing to find out and see how one created one’s very own Solid MEST Universe.
    It was not easy; it was done little by little. I have worked for on it for eon and very hard.
    Every new thought, every agreement, every consideration or disagreement, made it so!!!
    Over the years one can solo only so much on little things like problems, aches and pains, loss of a toe nail, before one move on into wider and more interesting fields of considerations. Like, ask you shoes to walk to you.
    I have been wanting to move through the walls, make things float about, do snow on a hot sunny day. Sit on the top of the mountain and look around, but without the body of course but its cold up there full of ice and snow to have my butt frozen off, oh, no!
    Be a butterfly and feel the rays of the sun on my wings. Etc. But most of all – to be able to move solid objects, now that is a wonderful challenge for the solo auditor! Ah, I groan.
    To make things solid: over the eons one has used, employed every possible means to achieve just that.
    There are many secret ingredients, invisibly hidden factors, the so-called forgotten considerations. One is; that we all have agreed on “ not to touch” because the safety of the race depended on the Solidity!! We must have family tree continuum= time in MEST
    Oh, I must not forget the GREAT TABOOS!!! Do not touch!!! Do not dissolve, or terminate, but make it certain to become permanent, therefore safely be there, for to be and have in the future.
    So no magic of any kind or meddling were allowed to interfere with MEST. Or things will disappear on you and you with it, no wonder one can’t move objects. If we could than the Universe would not be solid under our feet.
    Magic was outlawed long time back and the culprits were severely punished if they broke the law! They were banished into the invisible.
    Many evenings I have sat here in my living room and worked (Solo, regular sessions, by the Tech) on the understanding of just how a solid object could be moved.
    How could I make the prisms move on the chandelier without touching it with my hand? Nothing worked so far, since nothing moved. Or I thought it did not. You see, I saw things moving but I was looking with the eyes and through the eyes nothing have.
    The illusion of solidity has remained because of the “EYES”. Out of hundreds of hours of work confronting the MEST, I have had many cognitions. But out of the many cognitions, one is worth the mentioning
    COG: we look with the eyes, we have forgotten that we can see without better than with.
    One’s home – no matter how small a room, the size of a cave or a palace – is created and filled with little or lots of objects in order to ensure the permanency, the existence and the safety for the being to have. The walls, having walls, holds great importance.
    No matter how thin, or made of heavy carved stones, it serves the same – to give the safety for the being, to ensure the location, the solidity in space, in time.
    Therefore the continuity of self to have and to be, let’s not leave a very important consideration, here in the home we keep the most valued possessions. Memorabilia, grandfather’s pipe, aunties scarf the shoes we had when young when we have danced!
    You see, outside of the “HOME” things continually change, move, and disappear. One morning we look out and Good God we shout, who has stolen, where is my bike!
    There are also the seasons, nature, others, beings, who, without our agreements are constantly changing things. Daily! They dare! We need the safety of the solid walls.
    Never once when one looks out through the solid glass pane, does the terrain look the same. There are dangers out there, unexpected things which one can’t count on. The Things come and go, move about and one’s reality, “THE KNOW,” does not know the outcome.
    So the Self, the Spirit has built safety, solidity and named it HOME. Even the name is solid since on that concept there is no misunderstanding. All beings know what it is and on that have agreement. The HOME becomes solid and safe. [Well, an occasional plate or book flying, grandmamma rolled off on the staircase, her hip…..]
    And everyone will defend the “Home” with tooth and claw. Verbally or with weapons, it’s one’s choice if that is needed to do in order to keep it safe and permanent and solid in form. Cannons were invented for only for that purpose.
    Walking through a wall, well, one can have a large bump on the nose, Outside of that, I have found in sessions, nothing more, with the body that is!!!
    But searching for understanding, knowledge brings great rewards.
    When one is confronting the MEST Universe one ends up in the Theta Universe
    So the solid forms fall away, they lose their importance and solidity, and one can see beyond the solidity of MEST.[ Please do believe I can look at my neighbour now and I don’t have to visit her, by walk in through her door. But do I want, no, for what, she is on old thing same as I.]
    The theta Universe is full of wonders and magic. It is where we are cause, it is where we never fail, where everything is the way we want it, our reality, which does not need to be compromised. It is where we truly belong. Perfection in every way, our real home!
    I have many beautiful objects in my space. One is a large wood Snow Goose. Beautifully carved and painted. So a few evenings back, again I was working and wondering if I would ever be able to move on object. Actually, I was in session while I was looking at the orchids. Suddenly the leaves were growing; the roots twined out of the pot, hung down and carpeted the floor around the table.
    The long stalks grew upward, buds formed and then opened into magnificence by the dozens. I looked on with wonderment. So much beauty!!! In theta Universe anything can be.
    It than I have realised what I have been looking for it existed in my Universe all the time, but I was looking for it in the wrong place.[ as usual one ask, where I have put my keys, God I be good let it be found!]
    The MEST Universe has been created by the magic of the postulate and has become solid because the creators considered it valuable, therefore remains solid.
    The Ability of an OT is creation, being cause over, in the Theta Universe.
    I looked back at the Goose, She moved, stood up and opened her wings and flapped them. She stretched one wing parallel with one of her orange-coloured leg, then her other side.
    She shook her body and stretched her neck upward with open beak I felt the movement of the air around in the room. I was thinking that she was sitting in the same position too long and needed to stretch.
    I saw the downy underside of her snow-white small feathers, I smelled her too. She settled back and preened herself for a while. Then walked over, hopped up onto the ottoman in front of my chair, settled herself and put her beautiful head on my lap.
    I looked into her lovely black eyes into her Universe; my invisible hand reached out and gently stroked her white feathers.
    The only way I can explain – I know she and I were alive; we were spiritual beings existing in our own Universe, apart from the MEST.
    The Tech is the magic. When used it opens the Universe, which is filled with wonders of one’s own creations. Elizabeth, aka Wo-Y.
    PS; all your reality would be so welcome in order to expend my view point. Vinaire, do some shradding,.

      1. Vinaire, I don’t know if Elizabeth saw your question here, but I think she meant to type “shredding,” as she did in the post below.

          1. Vinaire, what does “ove” mean? 🙂 (Just kidding you in return.) But it would be more interesting to hear your take on Elizabeth ideas, as she has challenged you to do!

          2. Vinaire, I am sure your cat and I we would have love at first sight. But I cant locate the word the meaning to spell when fur falls out. Shad, is a fish your cat would like. He shreds the carpet… But?

        1. I love this Marildi. Right. The hubbardianen talks of brilliant and idiotic side. The spelling is in my idiotic side the logical thing which i dont have. I real like to be on idiot in some occasion. One of my favorite word is, Idiot. You should hear me saying, and aften. Elizabeth you are a totall idiot! And there is no debate on that.

          1. I don’t think Vinaire or most people here or anywhere consider spelling itself to be a very important indicator of intelligence or stupidity. Spelling and use of words in general are only important to the degree they help or get in the way of communicating an idea. If they’re getting in the way, we just have to fix ’em up, like you did with “shradding.”

      2. Vinaire.
        Great start!! well done. You just did the first shedding on the above article.
        The word is shredding: narrow strip cut or torn off, a small fragment, But in I my reality you have the invitation to make me wrong. Dissect is a good word, pulverize, go for it. thank for asking!

        1. Why are you so fixated on being made wrong or right?

          Hubbard used that button to the hilt… validation of self… invalidation of self… these are powerful buttons.

          .

          1. Vinaire, sorry to butt in but she did explain earlier that she’s interested in other realities, and indicated that it was because she wanted to compare them her own.

          2. I do not think in terms of right or wrong, nor do I think in terms of another’s reality or my reality.

            I just look at what is there and recognize it for what it is. I am not interested in opposing any viewpoint. I am only interested in recognizing and calling things for what they are.

            It seems that “me” and “you” are node points created in field of consideration when one fixes that value to them. Once that is accomplished, one can play the game of validation/invalidation, right/wrong, etc. by regarding “you” in opposition of “me”.

            .

  66. Huge Cognition , just huge. I was watering newly planted flowers but I was going over reading one blog where on “OT” in the name of “OT was doing …..
    I just realised the concept of what is a true OT means
    On OT, The person who attains the so called OT Level is not a GOD like creature!! [I already known that by shredding my own universe in order to confront what the hell got me into such a deep dodo] but there is a huge, gigantic miss understanding about.
    On OT only a being who has wider, more in depth understanding on ANY SUBJECT, no matter what that is.
    The understanding is there because one has looked at as-ised all the thoughts one has ever encountered in ones wondering in this Bloody Universe.
    BUT, BUT here is the core of the cognition”
    One becomes more human than one ever has been
    BUT HERE IS THE THING: one is no longer re-stimulated by all that crap!
    But one still understand and know what is going on but the understanding is complete= is aligned with one’s reality= level of knowledge.
    NOT ONE, NOT ONE being should have the audacity to put any being lower than self, to invalidate and evaluate any other being that walks the Plains of this Earth!
    If the person happens to be so called highly trained and have some higher level education about the so called spiritual universe which others don’t have,
    That being should be the last person to point out others lack in education, confront level and put self above, that they know better because levels of training or education on certain subjects.
    If and when that happens, that invalidation the one who is doing the evaluation show where the being is, who is doing that evaluation and invalidation
    If I ever do that to any of you who read my posting, Please Shoot me I ask for that!! I will supply the gun and the airline ticket to get here. I am not kidding.
    But I will shoot, shred anyone who will do that to others in the NAME OF OT, In the name of OT Ability. I would like to clarify what is on OT to me. Nothing! IT is just a word which I describe some concept.
    The crow that is out there in my garden he is more OT than I am, at list he had enough brain not to get a body.
    OT ability? Everyone should have their own definition on that subject and that definition should not be from the dictionary.
    Please, Please, keep it in mind when I write, what I write is not better than what you know it is simply different Nothing more just, different.
    It is your decision if you like or don’t like my view points it is your decision if you care to exchange yours or incorporate my view point into yours. That decision is soli yours. Thank you!!
    Elizabeth.

      1. Vinaire.
        Not at all, you are right, where I am at here I look around and dont see anybody else. Question: IF you close your eyes do you see others or are just self, you exists?
        Not quiet right, where I am,I
        am not alone just part of the spiritual univers. I real dont know just how many otheres use the same body, I do not know how many other souls say I am, I am Elizabeth Hamre. I have no reality on if others speak for me or I speak for otheres, or we speak at the same time and say the samething. Clue-less. We just hang out.

        1. Chis, Idiot? running into, having concepts of which I cant comprehend?
          On expession, nothing more. there are lots of creations out there I have no reality on the understandingo of what was the purpose to cause-create.
          One comes to understand after taking apart shredding MEST where ones ability is.
          To know is equal to resposibility to that extend.
          It is nice to seat by the creek on hot summer day and have ones feet in the cool water be with nature and have no care.

  67. As you know, I’ve done some geological study of the OT-materials and still find it fascinating that there’s some truth to it (shocked quartz and iridium are both found in (H-bombs in volcanoes) and (asteroid impact on earth). However, current research points toward ONE impact in Chixculub in Mexico thus going against Hubbards claims of H-bombs all over the world. And where are the remains of 250 billion “humanoids”? Huge anomalies.

    My biggeset question is: How come Hubbard would lie about such a big thing as the OT-levels, going from OT III up to OT VII. That’s about half the bridge, actually more when counting auditing hours. Why lie?

    Hubbard once said something like “Scientology is like chemistry: It might not be true, but it works.”

    Also, there’s so much of Hubbards other work that rings truth to it. Why would he lie so greatly about this?

    I can think of some explanations:

    1. He was “brainwashed” or “implanted”, then came back and put Scientology toward hell. (Some PL’s indicate this.)

    2. He ran out of material and decided he liked the fantasy world better than the real world.

    3. He mixed some reality with some made-up fantasies. Perhaps OT III happaned 380 million years ago with a slightly different story on a slightly different solar system? LRH just filled in the blanks and made up some.

    4. He lied just to have a “new game”. Remember, we all want games or we’ll die out of boredom.

    I’m actually starting to view Hubbard more and more as a genius & crazy person at the same time, so it’s up to each and every one of us to decide what’s genius and what’s crazy.

    This reminds me of a rescent scandal we’ve had here in Sweden where Viljo Nousiainen (who died about twelve years ago), the great trainer of Patrik Sjöberg (who won the world record of high jump in 1987 with 242 cm). That trainer was just recently exposed as a pedophile, having sexually harrassed boys (including Sjöberg) when he was a trainer. Nevertheless, everybody does agree that Viljo was a great trainer, probably one of the best in the world when it comes to high jumping, seeing important small details, creating a world elite for Sweden withing “track and field” (Patrik Sjöberg, Christian Olsson, Stefan Holm and trainer Yannick Tregaro (who was also sexually assaulted).

    Both an incredible genius and an incredible idiot at the same time.

    Perhaps some genius persons get all their “abilities” multiplied by ten? That means all their personality characteristics are multiplied, even the bad ones.

    It’s not unusual for geniuses to have really bad sides.

    Probably even Hubbard?

    1. I don’t think he lied. I think he believed it. And according to my views he wasn’t that far off the mark (except for the OT III story which he could have dropped without any problem) – and based on his view of the OT case, he developed processes that work very well – but not for the reasons he thought. And further out on that limb we find Captain Bill who just extrapolated the hell out of the sci-fi and ended up with something that dwarfs most sci-fi writers. But even he had some pieces of truth to it (like the ideas of creation of viewpoints) – but the conspiracies and the space opera got the better of him. IMO.

      1. Gier, I really liked what you said here (and the fact that you would say it 🙂 ). One specific is your saying you don’t think LRH lied. For me, that would align with his beingness and activities overall.

        On the OT III story, I get from some posters that for them it was a real incident and from others it wasn’t – and from some of them that it depended on when the thetan first “arrived” on Earth or in the “Sector” (I’m not sure now which it supposedly was). Now, if that last is true isn’t it possible that you yourself were a late arriver?

        Also, could you say a bit more about the “pieces of truth” related to creation of viewpoints?

        1. As the OP says – the OT case is about handling of old viewpoints – something that Captian Bill (and many others) validate (but Capt. Bill also goes on this wild conspiracy goose chase).

          1. Thanks. At first I thought of the way “viewpoints” is used in The Factors (which I THINK is another definition).

          2. I was wondering about that very thing when I asked you earlier if the people you created in your dreams might be able to step out of them, just like you do. You said that they could but would still be attached to you. So I got that it was more like a circuit/valence in the mind – which doesn’t pick up bodies, etc (I don’t think!).

            1. Well, it may be a matter of universes inside universes…

              The viewpoints in my dreams picked up bodies… in my dreams 😉

          3. So I guess the real question is – are they all “thetans.” And with the same abilities, or at least no difference in ability or magnitude than ANY two
            thetans might be (i.e. even those of the same “generation”).

            1. The inherent issue I see with “thetans” or “souls” or “spirits” is that they have connotations or properties attached to them. As Vin points out – any such carries considerations or mass with them. That may point to “viewpoint” as a better term – and definitely a more generic term… usable for the viewpoint of ME as well as viewpoints I create (although they are perhaps leaves of me if I can be seen as a branch… would that make God the trunk of the tree? 🙂

          4. Or are the “dream-like” creations more like Elizabeth’s Shrapoo (in her post above), who was the twin created by Patek. Shrapoo ultimately melted into the nothingness of the Universe – while Patek regained the Theta of Self.

          5. I would not say God is the trunk of the tree, because that would limit God. God by definition is unlimited. So God would be, in my view, the whole tree, and every tree, and everything else from Alpha to Omega, which would be from Potential to ultimate realization of every possibility.

            God is, from before the Beginning until after the End of everything that could ever possibly exist. And that covers a lot of ground!

          6. I like it! LRH himself originally defined “thetan” as a static with certain abilities (what you are now using “viewpoint” to mean, if I duplicate you) and of course a static by definition would not involve any considerations or experience – which are actually mass in mental form. But those things do get piled onto and connected with INDIVIDUAL “thetans” and thus the word has, I believe, evolved amongst Scientologists to include those personality additives to the definition (this is like LRH’s original problem with “spirit” and “soul” – they had additives, added connotations). Anyway, I’m with you and Vinaire on this!

            Yes, I can see God or Static as the trunk of the tree. Or maybe it’s more like – each “outgrowth” is a whole new tree in itself. I just hope it’s not the case that some of those created viewpoints are like circuits/valences of the mind with no real life of their own – like the fur on Vinaire’s cat, mere sheddings (or is it shreddings? LOL). Heaven forbid there are zombies amongst us…

            1. Static is a good word. I believe Viewpoint is even better. It communicates better, is more usable as a generic term and incidentally is more in alignment with The Factors.

        2. Yes, as I’ve said, I like Viewpoint better too. And I had a great win when I realized (on this comm cycle!) that the meaning of Thetan has evolved to include notions about properties that are actually acquired. As I see it now, these notions are additives to the original LRH concept, a static with certain abilities. Yay! 🙂

    2. Hubbardianen,

      There are other possibilities. Personally, I tend to subscribe to the possibilities outlined by The Pilot(Ken Ogger) in his articles about “Implant Universes” and “Pocket Universes”.

      The entire OTIII incident, including the content exactly as Hubbard described it, could exist in a “pocket universe that is/was used in the implant. In this way the incident would be both what ‘really’ happened’ and a fictitious implant. In other words, it could have happened “on Earth”, but not exactly this particular “Earth” we are living on now, but a very real mock-up of it including date-stamps etc. Thus to a person who runs the incident in an auditing session 2 million years from now, it would say it happened 75 million years ago….

      If you read The Pilot’s article carefully, you can see what I am talking about:

      http://caersidi.freeshell.org/FZA/pilot/sscio/ss5a.htm

        1. I’m not sure what the similarity you see is?

          Battlestar Galactica could be written from recollections of whole track events. As could any sci-fi, like Star Wars.

          If you accept the possibility of a ‘multiverse’ then anything and everything may have already happened, and if you dig around in your whole track, you might find it.

          For example, the show “Caprica” which was supposed to be a prequel to Battlestar, featured several civilizations, one of which had elements of gangsters wearing fedoras in a hi-tech setting.

          I’m not sure I have read any stories exactly corresponding to The Pilot’s ideas, but there are many “alternate history” works in sci-fi. Try the fiction of Philip K. Dick which explores the creation of universes and shifting realities.

          We’re talking about subjectivity here.

          1. We agree on this. I just saw the similarity with my favorite sci-fi series. I talk about this in the interview I did on Norwegian TV – about the viewpoint (spirit) being eternal and thus have experienced many things up through the times etc.

          2. Geir, have you ever seen the series Babylon 5? I feel it is the best sci-fi series ever done. Unfortunately it is not syndicated onTV since about 2000. It ran for 5 seasons plus some made for TV movies were set in that universe.

            I think you would really like it if you had a chance to watch a few episodes. It’s probably available on DVD.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5

            One of the major themes was the “Shadow War”, kind of a war between forces of light and forces of darkness. Also a fascist takeover of the Earth.

  68. One of the biggest problems for me when it comes to LRH is the money. Why wouldn’t he (like Dalai Lama) just aim to get as many as possible up the bridge instead of focusing so much on money? I think this was one of his biggest “ruins”. Money.

    Again though, I have to say LRH has probably showed me more than any other being on the planet.

    1. Hubbardianen,
      These particulars that you bring up are troubling. So for me the question becomes what do you want to do about this? So if this was you and me talking, I’d ask you if you ever got any tone arm action auditing? Did you ever have a long-fall blow down with a floating needle and a happy face? If you did, then I would ask you to consider solo auditing everyday until your questions are answered. Hook up with some of the very able tech people lurking about and just get it on.

      On the other hand, if you’ve studied Scientology and feel that it is unworthy of being used, then abandon it and get it on in another direction.

      I went through what you are describing. In the end, you will be just alone with your own thoughts about this and have only yourself to please. The misery of being in the doubtful condition that you describe is an uncomfortable place to be. And you are going to go nowhere on the research questions that you are asking. We don’t and we aren’t going to know LRH’s heart. Some say Scientology is a bad fantasy and some swear by it. Some of us are in the middle somewhere having (myself) gotten spectacular epiphanies from using the Tech. Some haven’t. Some actively spend their time trying to destroy it.

      Anyway, my hat’s off to you for sticking with this and asking hard questions. But try to distill all the brouhaha down to what can you do about any of this? Crystalize this down to what can you do today to make your condition with regard to this move off “high-center” and get some traction.

      For me, I’ve put new batteries in my e-meter and charged it and am using it. I’m taking control of my own universe and fighting the fight of my life to regain the integrity of my spirit and according to me, this was the right decision. For you? Maybe not but you can choose something and begin doing it to help you get some traction. I didn’t come to this point very fast. I spent 15 years after the SO being spiritually in limbo and then spent the past 3 years sorting through the muck trying to decide what to do. I tried steps A-E to get back in the Church. Fortunately, the internet provides a venue where people like us can freely discuss and gather information with which to make our “big” decisions.

      Anyway, again with respect – Good Luck!

      1. I prefer being in doubt when it comes to things that are not clear, not to say one can do things in the meantime.

        Scientific research most of the times means being in doubt, especially when it comes to the age of the universe, one-soul-many-bodies theory, dark matter, white holes etc. These things are not 100 percent discovered yet so being in doubt is the sane approach.

        Troubling questions? I sure hope so. The truth should be able to stand up for troubling questions.

        But I get your point and I should do more auditing. Both in terms of possible gains and research.

    2. Hubbardanien,

      We don’t really know what he did with the money or what he intended to do with the money.

      However personally, I see nothing wrong with the idea that he might have wanted to take 10% “off the top” for himself and his family.

      After all, it was entirely his creation that he spent most of his life creating.

      Why shouldn’t he benefit financially from it? Why should he be like the Dalai Lama?

      The Dalai Lama did not create Buddhism, is not the source of Buddhism. Hubbard did create and establish Scientology. In that way, the two men are not the least bit comparable.

      But personally, I believe Hubbard probably was setting aside a lot of whatever money he skimmed, for the establishment, defense, and expansion of the scientology organizations. He may have viewed the possibility that the “powers that be” would completely destroy what he had already built, and he might have had to start all over again.

      That seems entirely reasonable and sensible to me.

      You know, all the assets of the organizations could have been, and still could be, seized by “the Authorities”. For example, by application of the RICO statutes in the United States. And other countries have similar laws they can use.

      I have heard it said that the US government was building a RICO case against Hubbard, and that may have contributed to his neglect of his own health and eventual death, before the case could be brought against him.

      1. If he would have the mindset of the Dalai Lama, I believe Scientology would have gotten more traction.

        Also, Scientology was not “entirely his creation”. There are many examples where he failed to credit others or where he right out hijacked other’s creations.

        1. Thanks Geir but I’m not buying any (red) herring today! 🙂

          It is true many people contributed to the creation, formation, and establishment of both the materials, the practices, and the organizations. How could it be otherwise?

          Nonetheless, Hubbard was the driving force behind it happening. Whether he originated any particular datum or process is immaterial to what I am talking about.

          Jimmy Wales is arguably “the Founder” or “co-Founder” of Wikipedia, but how much of the content did he create? None.

          Did Bill Gates create Microsoft all by himself? Yet who else’s name is associated with it? Does Bill credit all the people who contributed to the creation and development of the Microsoft producers? Not that I have seen.

          Hubbard as much as admits he “assembled” scientology and built on previous works of many others. Would scientology as such exist without Hubbard? Of course not. He did originate and found what we know as “Scientology”, no matter how many “co-creators” there are to it’s real existence in the world. He did compile it all together, assemble and sort pre-existing data, as well as doing much original development, and pushed it through to establishment.

          What’s the issue here?

          People are basically individuals. Each one’s mindset is individual and different from another’s. We are not the Borg, Thank God!

          And Scientology had plenty of “traction”, going from zero in 1950 to a network of world-wide organizations actually in about 20 years. It boomed until the 1980s, and what really happened has not been sorted out at all.

          If you want to compare Buddhist and Scientological “religious leaders”, it is more appropriate to compare Dalai Lama and David Miscavige, to some extent. They can be compared in that neither one is the founder of his respective ‘religion’, but one way or another is recognized as a “leader”.

          Of course Dalai is actually “leader” of just one branch of Buddhism, and actually not necessarily recognized by many Buddhists as their particular leader, or even as being doctrinally correct.
          Theravadists are likely to see Dalai and the other Tibetan Buddhists as “squirrels”.

          They are just more polite about it.

          Eventually, in hundreds of years perhaps or maybe sooner with the use of the Internet and modern communications, the world of scientology will also evolve into various schools. But they will all be based on the materials codified by Hubbard,just as the different Buddhist or Christian sects are builton a canon codified by Gotama.

          Son my point about comparing Hubbard and Dalai remains.

          The existence of Buddhism is not at stake. It’s a done deal, worldwide. Dalai doesn’t have to see to it’s establishment and survival, and in fact to the extent he is/was, in Tibet, he failed. Buddhism in Tibet is a goner under the bootheel of the Red Chinese. Tibetan Buddhism is in exile.

          And in the process of fighting the Chinese, Dalai allied himself with some unsavory political elements, like the CIA.

          Hubbard set up scientology, whether you consider he assemnbled or codified or sorted for importance and compiled pre-existing knowledge(which is of course the “work of others”), from scratch. He may have used ‘the work of others’ in creating Scientology, but it was he who created it.

          Well, that’s enough for now. There are a lot more posts that could be written on Tibet, Dalai, Hubbard, etc. Another time.

          1. Typing too fast.

            Christian sects are of course nominally built on the teachings of Jesus, not Gotama.

          2. My point was that Hubbard had a tendency to disregard or obfuscate the credits of others – like demanding that work others created be copyrighted in his name.

            As you know, I am a copyright abolishionist. But I firmly believe that credit should be given where credit is due (i.e. I believe in credit rights and Trademarks to cater for authenticity)

          3. I don’t disagree with your point at all.

            It is a detail relative to what I posted. A true detail,but a detail none the less.

            A builder/developer builds a shopping mall. He does not mine the clay and make all the bricks for it himself. He gets those from others. He does not acknowledge who those others are,yet without their bricks he could not have built them all.

            Or even back it up a step: Sam Walton is the “Founder” of the Walmart stores. Did he actually build any of the stores himself? And in fact, did he not combine in his own way the retailing ideas and principles of commerce of others in his own way? He was the driving force, the ‘prime mover’ without whom the Walmart brand would not exist. Say the builder/developer above is building Walmart stores. Does he get any credit? No more than the brick factory workers do. Sam Walton gets all the credit(or blame).

            It’s the same with Hubbard and the Scientology brand of practical philosophy. Hubbard is the “founder” and was the driving force behind it’s existence.

            Walmarts exist because of Sam Walton. Scientology exists because of Ron Hubbard.

            But you are right, because it is this lack of assignment or attribution of correct ownership and origination that makes things hard to as-is.

            That is also what makes things persist.

            1. That is also what makes for attackable lies. As we so often sees on the Forums. Hubbard should have been more transparent in his working, research and building and should have validated the efforts of others much more. Humbleness should have been a prominent trait, because if it was, I think we would have seen more traction with Scientology. Thus I believe that Hubbard ultimately became an anti-expansion factor for Scientology. And this becomes more than a detail in the whole picture.

          4. Why is this fixation on “source” there?

            The idea of “creator” is the real red herring. Take this computation of “creator” out of the equation and simply look at knowledge, and the consistencies and inconsistencies within it…

            … And things will become much clearer.

            KHTK 13: LOOKING AT KNOWLEDGE

            .

          5. Geir, I can’t disagree with any of your last post. If Hubbard had done all that, perhaps the outcome would be different now, but I’m not sure of that, precisely because the existing scene is co-created. How much of the fascist tendencies that developed within the CoS, was Hubbard responsible for? I saw people in the 1970s who tended that way, who had had no association with Hubbard. And after his passing there is no guarantee the CoS would be any better than it is now. I have no doubt his self-appointed successor has indeed put his own personal stamp on it however. Were someone else in charge, it might be a much better scene.

            At some point, it appears elements of the Sea Org became a destructive influence or force; but the boom of the 1960s and 1970s, when Hubbard was alive and active was very real. And there are plenty of reports of Sea Org missions that were constructive and helpful.

            I think the events of the late 1970s and 1980s need to be sorted out. And they have not been, yet.

            Well, I have to head out for work.

            1. I believe that the construction of the Sea Org was a mistake – on the heels of LRH’s belief in wild conspiracies (OT III incident). SO became the downfall of Scientology. It was created out of wrong WHYs. Yes, it took several years for the SO insanity to really sink in. Also, many insane movements expands – so expansion is no evidence for the movement being good.

          6. Geir posted,
            https://isene.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/a-radical-new-view-of-the-upper-scientology-levels-ok-here-goes/#comment-4616

            “Also, many insane movements expands – so expansion is no evidence for the movement being good.”

            I don’t know where you were in 1970, but I was in the USA and the expansion I am talking about that was occurring then had nothing to do with”insane movements” -it had to do with a grassroots movement of hundreds of people filling up courserooms all over the country by word-of-mouth because they were doing the HQS course and co-auditing on up from there.

            Whether the Sea Org had anything to do with that expansion I don’t know.

            I do believe it was some members of the Sea Org who stopped the expansion that was happening and started the downward spiral of scientology by perpetrating the “mission massacre” of 1982.

            Then the creation of the IAS (International Association of Suppressives) in 1984 was another nail in scientology’s coffin. The addition of the other “donations”(for no exchange) programs killed and buried any chance of scientology expanding by word-of-mouth again.

            The exorbitant price increases didn’t help, either.

            Hubbard’s role in much of these events and happenings isn’t yet clear to me. I don’t speculate much about the many more.

            As more people who were there and witnessed parts of the unfolding of those scenes write their books and publish their accounts, I think eventually I will get a better idea of the various causes and responsibilities.

            Or perhaps some of them will end up ‘unknowable’ because of the absence of data.

            1. You said: “I don’t know where you were in 1970, but I was in the USA and the expansion I am talking about that was occurring then had nothing to do with”insane movements”

              That is an attempted Straw Man. I never said Scientology had anything to do with insane movements. I was merely pointing out that even insane movements have had great expansion – thus expansion is no argument that Scientology was a good movement, even in the early ages.

              As for Hubbard’s role in the deterioration of Scientology; He created the SO, he created the disconnection policies, he created a top-down authoritarian system where individual responsibility was undermined by rules, regulation and Policy…

          7. Geir posted,
            https://isene.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/a-radical-new-view-of-the-upper-scientology-levels-ok-here-goes/#comment-4616

            Let me back up a little. I was rough on Dalai Lama. I consider him a friend and an enlightened leader. He will say he’s just another common guy from the mountains, of course.

            I think his exile from Tibet has been a good thing, it has liberated him, allowed him to grow and expand in theta and be more true to
            himself and develop his brand of Buddhism in positive directions. It enabled him to move on up alittle higher.

            My point was that Tibet was never paradise. The Lamas of Tibet ruled it savagely for hundreds of years, as a feudal serfdom. They may have
            talked the talk of compassion, liberation and nirvana, but they walked the walk of fascistic oppression of the people of Tibet. They
            literaly had the power of human trafficking, mutilation, and life and death over the ordinary people of Tibet. This is documented. Here’s
            a good article about it by a recognized journalist:

            http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

            I do not think my buddy Tenzin Gyatso could have flourished in that environment. His exile was a good thing. It set him free.

            I think there is a parallel there, to the CoS and the Independent movement. You, Geir, could not have flourished inside the CoS, under the
            bootheels of Flag , the IAS etc. No-one can, except the relatively small cabal that runs the show there.

            Someday perhaps the current regime will pass and others more benign will run the CoS in a better way. But the hope for scientology lies
            “in exile”, outside of the CoS at this time.

            I haven’t done OTIII, so I can’t correlate that to any ideas abouthow the planet is actually governed. I can only treat them as two
            different but perhaps related issues, subjective vs. objective, historical view vs. present-time.

            But I do believe some people use the word “conspiracy” as a buzz word to dismiss anyone who suggests that important decisions affecting
            many lives, are ever made behind closed doors and not disclosed to the public. Thatis the very definition of ‘conspiracy’. It is the
            routine order of the day here on Earth.

            Those who believe otherwise are living in a fantasy world plus wearing rose-colored glasses, in my opinion.

            Do you really believe many of the most important governing decisions are not made behind closed doors? Or that they are made with your
            best interests in mind?

            How did the Russian Revolution come about? Or the Nazi takeoverin Germany? North Korea? China? Cambodia? The CoS?

            Russia was a threat to elements in Germany, England and other Europeans. Perhaps even in Norway? It needed to be brought low. Some
            European ‘powers that be’ conspired with Lenin, bankrolled him and used him to accomplish their aim of destabilizing Russia.

            That’s how fascists do it. It’s always by ‘conspiracy’.

            What do you think the G-7 were doing all those years when they were meeting every year? Planning how to end wars and bring health care to
            the people? Please.

            Whatever the role of the OTIII incident, it is certainly obvious that something is heavily suppressing the 4th dynamic. And that something
            is in the minds of a lot of people around here, below their level of awareness. There is a commonality to the scene, whatever it’s basis is.

            I think Hubbard did have a mindset similar to Dalai Lama, in LRH’s early years. But by 1980 that was no longer in effect.

            Overall I think Hubbard was a man in a big hurry. He shared his conclusions, and sometimes the conclusions of others as his own, but didn’t spend much time on organizing and archiving his studies and data. He was not a librarian, he was a trailblazer.

            He also moved a lot faster than most people and no-one could keep up with him very well.

            He had goals he wanted to accomplish and I think he would have accomplished a lot less in the way of R&D and establishment if he had slowed down to re-work, document more carefully, organize, archive, etc etc.

            Even so, he did not complete “the work” before his time ran o