When I got into Scientology back in 1984, I was a nerd. I couldn’t pick up a girl if my life depended on it. And while my interest in Scientology was initially along the lines of particle physics, it was the communication training that would give me a boost in the right direction.
During my first few months in the Scientology organization in Oslo, I noticed that quite a few of the people frequenting there was “a bit off” – not ordinary or normal. Some were right out wirdoes. Like me I guess, so I didn’t pay much attention to it. The training went great. There was a few strange situations, like grown ups yelling at eachother and behaving like they never had a real upbringing… but these situations were dwarved by my gains from the subject.
As time went on, I had more strange and even crazy experiences. One time the Executive Director started spitting in my face. Another time I was yelled at from point blank distance and with full force by the Depyty Commanding Officer for Europe. And I saw others being treated badly. But again, the gain kept mounting and the “score card” kept going in the positive direction.
In 1996 I was asked by OSA (Office of Special Affairs – the Church of Scientology intelligence arm) to help them out on the Internet. I was to do research and find information on the main enemies of Scientology and report back to OSA. It was like entering the loony bin. The news group alt.religion.scientology was arift with kooks. The place would give any psychitrist a field day. The fact that the kookiest of them all, Koos Nolst Trenite, had gotten the Kook of the Month Award in 1995 seemed to fit all to well into the picture. But the picture was clearly “explained” as this snake pit was the result of Suppressive People gathering to destroy my religion. It never really dawned on me that many of the kooks hanging out at ARS had been in Scientology and that many of the weirdities I saw inside the church could well have been equally kooky had they had the freedom to post freely and anonymously on the Net.
It also never occured to me how it was that the group with supposedly the best communication training in the world could get itself into such a communication mess as I saw on the Net and also in their handeling of media exposure.
As the pressure from Scientology International Management mounted parallelling the contraction of Scientology worldwide, the kookness became ever more present. All the while I was busy justifying that the craziness I saw in Oslo and Copenhagen had to be the lack of training in these lower organizations.
My severe reality adjustment came as I met the Church leader, David Miscavige in 2006. The insanity came from the very top.
I left the church in 2009 and have been posting and discussing Scientology on various forums, mailing lists and other channels since then – like my blogs, the FreeZone and IVY mailing lists, The ESMB and Anon forums, etc. I have also been active in very different arenas such as the EFN (the Norwegian EFF counterpart), the HP calculator Forum, various LinkedIn groups and Facebook groups, etc. When I compare all these arenas with those concerning Scientology (outside or inside the church) there seems to be an overrepresentation of kooks in the world of Scientology. While I remain among the few weird people in those other arenas, I am certainly not in a minority in the Scientology arenas.
But beyond the positive quirks or cute eccentricities, what I am targetting here is the inability to treat others with respect, the inability to resolve situations with good communication.
So, why is this? Is it because weirdoes get attracted to Scientology, or is it because Scientology produce them? In any case, it seems unlikely that Scientology is able to mitigate the kookiness among its ranks. And that puzzles me.
Let an open discussion ensue. No rules. No suspensions. Feel free to pitch in. Al, Dio, Vin, ESMB-ers and normal people alike, let your voice be heard.
Geir Isene - uncut 
Geir, a lot of the behaviors you described above are “just” Scientologists behaving badly under extreme and chronic stress. Some of those behaviors are classic PTSD symptoms and Millbrook Prison subject behavior.
If you think “non-kooky” is a phlegmatic Norwegian who joins the local state church, works at the same job for 30 years, has sex solely in the missionary position and produces 2.2 children with the same mate, then Scientologists are probably kooky.
In fact, I’ve observed that of all the people who self-selected into Scientology (none of them Norwegians, by the way) almost all were kooks to begin with.
However, Scientologists are far from the only group of kooks in the world. The industry I work in is absolutely packed with people who are odd, neurotic, smart, irritating, heroic, unpredictable, obsessive and enigmatic — in response to their perceived stimuli and pressures.
My own family claims many kooks. In fact, most persons whose contributions to society I admire or abhor are kooks.
Therefore, I postulate (in the scientific, not scientological, sense) that a strong correlate of human kookiness is passion,, by which I mean kooks care deeply about something and want to obtain results.
I further postulate that the kookier an individual is, the more likely s/he is to get noticed, modeled and empowered by others. Therefore, kooky is a survival trait in human beings and a survival trait for the species.
Discuss. 🙂
Doubtless, there are many who would consider that anyone with a generally libertarian political bias who accepted reincarnation or past-lives as possibly true, who failed to run away screaming at the very idea of a billion year ‘contract’ with any organization at all, who was intrigued with the paranormal or was willing to work really long hours for very low pay as — kooky. To those, I would definitely fit the bill.
“Kooky,” is rather a subjective term; anyone can be a ‘kook’ by someone else’s definition.
My own ‘enlistment’ in Scientology was from the late 1960’s through the 1980’s. In my personal perception, most of the Scientologists I encountered seemed remarkably sane. Most serious oddities could be attributed to either good people attempting to follow stupid policy or their attempts to follow good policy in stupid ways. There were occasional, ‘oddballs,’ but their frequency in and about the orgs seemed rather lower than in the general population: they seemed to be ‘routed out’ or placed ‘off-lines’ (if unhelped) with good regularity.
During that personal interval, and discounting my own and other’s similar ‘kookiness,’ I noticed very few people in Scientology _I_ would consider to be, ‘kooks.’ But for someone outside looking in? You betcha; band of brother kooks. We wanted to make the whole world a better place and thought we knew how to do it. Damn crazy on the face of it. Kooky!
Wasn’t it?
G.
Yup! But oh so admirable in spirit!
Crazy? Was IT? i dont think so… but again each to his own… to you it was crazy… to me, well….hehehe…
Definitely hits my grin button. Full reality.
If artists are SP magnets, imagine what SCN is. SCN has been the nuttiest thing in my life, because it attracts some of the best and the worst in my opinion — but the majority is the worst, as the best eventually leave, while the worst stay and seek to rule.
That was a most interesting post, Geir, as I was thrown out of Scientology “Church” in 1983, am sort of aware that the “Church” has got worse (more dominating, suppressive, etc) but have no detailed knowledge of individual experience. This (your) individual experience I found most enlightening.
However, don’t look for answers to me. I am still looking. So here is just where I have looked. When I began to find my feet, I read a number of books (well, three or four) on suppressive cults. Most interesting. Perhaps you could call Hubbard (or just the later Hubbard) kookie (a word not particularly in my vocabulary). Certainly the leader of a group has an enormous influence on the group. Then you have the fact (or my belief!) that Scientology (the group), working (avowedly) on untrapping people) collects lots of data (now in over 50 years) on how people can be trapped. And a leader, under the flag of ends justify the means and “Church” Scientology, is supposedly the only way of saving the world (quite ridiculous, but not more ridiculous than many cults) can get faithful followers to trap people – a byproduct of being trapped, is kookieness.
All the best,
Ant
Your experience is a good example of the difference between the basic tech and the organizational perversion of it. There’s no way the correct application of Scn communication principles would produce a poor communicator. But the organizational conditioning into “us and them” and the superiority of Scientologists, plus certain admin policy including the push on stats (as regards staff members) makes for a whole different thing when it comes to communication.
The kook point is an interesting one. I think the selection process has something to do with the ability to think outside the box, a trait that would include kooks. Another factor is a person’s level on the awareness scale: people at “ruin” or “help” or, by contrast, at “purpose” could all be persuaded into Scientology. And kooks could fit in at any of those places.
The tech does not produce it. What is being applied on an administrative level is the Definition
of “Impingement”. See in the admin dict.
Maybe the definition, was altered /extended by Miscavige into something like
“If they dont produce or dramatise too much, then make them beef.”*loool
Geir your article brings up point I never understood within the context of physical violence, beatings etc…church internal
Its a shame scientologists spit on people for whatever reason. I tell you if someone spits on me I shake him until he dwarfs.
I know that physical violence does not exist in a SCNists universe even less that meeting a psych for mental care,
What I really do not understand is that all these guys who have been beaten by Miscavige
never took into account to beat back. At least, in all these whistle blower reports I have not
found a small line, expressing a wish to beat back.Nothing /zero
And It does not make sense. In a mind of an abused person there must develop such a thought of revenge. But it seems it did not happen. Now from a tech view someone who is getting such an uncomfortable inflow, and not reversing the flow will be trapped in a stuck flow. He has agreed
to accept this inflow…forever. And the more he gets inflow the more effect he wil be and the end is, that he says (or thinks) oh yeah Miscavige please beat me. Then you are the scumbag.
Thats the point where MArty is. Miscavige is a scumbag.
However, I think the real overt is, the omission to stop Miscavige by APPROPRIATE method.
Baseball bat and then BANG BANG BANG.
I remember a text from LRH saying, that Hitler could perform all this bullshit because Noone was there and said NO, Stop ! thats it.
Noone stopped Miscavige and he goes completely out of control. He does what ever he likes
to do becauseHE KNOWS noone will seriously try stopp him. “Lick my boots nigger” thats the bottom of the scale.He knows the people aroung him are bound into all sorts of rules which
forbid to beat back. I hope one day a srong guy sees that Miscavige gives a shit on all the rules
And boy, I hope one day a strong guy is standing in front of him and says, Thats it! BANG.
Spongebob: “make them beef” and “BANG BANG BANG”
Have to admit, your phrasing got a couple laughs out of me. 😀
On your point about no one saying no, a major part of the reason for that is that they have been conditioned – basically brainwashed. But btw, Marty has written that a key reason for why he blew was that he was afraid that if he stayed he would soon be making Miscavige into hamburger. 😉
marildi, in case of miscavige beating back is standard tech, its matching the tone level.*gg
Although I have never been involved in affrays , I know from observation, that the only way you enforce discipline on extremely arrogant,invalidating or self-important people is to rearrange their face.
Two things happen then: either the person blows, or she drops the arrogancy and becomes handsome.
*ggg
Standard Tech
Re MArty: I think he would have had a great relief, by reversing the flow,
Hysterically funny ! 😀
I said something evil before and I feel like I should clarify it — I didn’t mean it as evil as it appeared. I said that Scientology attracts some of the best, and I assume that some may have thought that because I said that I’m an ‘elitist’. You know I have met some of those ‘elitists’, and I really disliked them, so I don’t want to be like them. But the reason I want to make this clarification is that Scientology, no matter what has done, and no matter what it’s going to do (not much, as it’s dying fast, in my estimation), it will never ever become as fucked up as it’s antagonists. You know, no millions of people we ever butchered in (un)holy wars, in Hubbard’s name and no brains were ever fried in electric chairs. The fact that some fanatic anti-Scientology critics present SCN to be THE evil thing on earth, simply validates what I said before — that it’s a magnet for wackos. I have never read most lies about a single subject on earth (except for the nature of man), Don’t talk to me about elitism, you who has the holy license of ‘God’ or ‘Science’ to profit by messing people up. SCN is really an innocent lamb in comparison to those guys. Truth be told.
Spyros, interesting point you make on the comparison of Scn to its antagonists.
Also a very good point about Scn being a magnet for wackos. I’m amazed at how much time, attention, and space on the internet is devoted to the subject of Scn, and the majority of it seems to be coming from critics – especially the wacky ones.
Not that I’m saying much of the criticism isn’t warranted, but a lot of it is based on misinformation or just plain ulterior motives. The latter includes the common, ordinary ser fac at play – the impulse to make self right by making others wrong.
I really think it’s a clear indicator of the scope and depth and power of Scn (for both good and evil) that it gets so much attention.
“But beyond the positive quirks or cute eccentricities, what I am targetting here is the inability to treat others with respect, the inability to resolve situations with good communication”
Fast flow hiring policies (no training or usual standards established) coupled with harsh ethics (from the demand to produce one way or another) blow off individuals who seek reason and resolution and load the organizations up with individuals who utilize domination as their modus operandi and those who accept domination as normal and natural. Domination is the essence of disrespect.
Maria you have a big botton on behavier, how should or should not be … it is hanging out, dragging you down, one not only in the secret of ones universe, behind closed eye lids should be free but there should be free in communcation…. i do understand the rules how to behaive if one wants to belong in the game… that is not my point.. but rules are the nails, hammered one coffin lid closed- tight.
so lets not talk rules, what is kook in you reality? if you point toward me, that is welcome a very good indication toward different reality.
Maria, I have expressed my self very badly….. Behavior of any kind is not the answer… violence-rude-ness, or the opposite: gentle –ness kindness never truly solved anything….[one breeds further violence, the other gives false safety]. and have been experienced by everybody in thousands of different mixtures. Those considerations-agreements are part of the game… not the solution to gain new reality of bigger picture.
I am of the opinion that kindness ultimately resolves anything.
In my reality: kindness is one of the avenues which never ends, just continues winding around and around in the MEST… By now you know what in my reality which can resolve any kind of condition….[ but again.. I do believe good open communication is the answer to running any enterprise, nothing else works better while one is in the game.]
If Marildi would be here [not at home, I just called her, she is gallivanting again] she would hit me on the nose and say “”””ELIZABETH not everybody is where you are at!””” By now I only have one reality and one solution…. by the way… the explosion yesterday? Take a win “SEEING-PICKING UP THINGS=picture sharing other persons universe” I was not attacking Marildi but I was in the middle of a session which went on for days and the Explosion was the item I was sitting in…. The explosion was not here, not now, and I did not have the body than… well done for you…. I thank you for allow me being here and allow me being almost me, I do watch my manner… mind you that is not easy… being without barriers is not easy to operate where there are nothing but…thanks again…
Geir, I’m with you regarding kindness. Only a psycho wouldn’t respond to someone communicating with kindness. I just quit my very well paying job because I couldn’t work with my boss anymore due to her lack of kindness. Though I was her second top performer in Australia, making her on average $1.2 million Aus, she would still berrate me as a mechanism to get me to do what she wanted me to do. I couldnt work for the moron any longer. Miscave is also moronic in his approach to people. Wouldn’t you think he’d have gotten more results from people by appealing to their good nature? Like my ex boss, the guy obviously cannot analyze people. The way he behaves is the complete opposite of what Scientology was supposed to be about. I never understood why people were so mean to each other when I was a member. Makes no sense at all
Vixen! I am sooo glad to find your comment here! Blomkål!!
You are one hell of a girl. I love you to pieces 🙂
Funny greeting! hahaha (did I get that right?)
What did you get right?
I know Vixen from real life. She’s one of the best people I’ve ever met.
Blomkål, really? I can’t have understood correctly – “cauliflower?” — no, I got that wrong.
Yes – cauliflower 🙂
Only she will know what I mean.
ahh, a personal greeting…
Har du stiftmachine?
Yohoo!
I would love to have you hang around here, Vix.
Your ex-boss is a Scientologist?
Agree about being mean — looking back at the constant sea of negative feelings — I never understood either, I just went along and trusted that others understood why it was necessary to be that way. This was a mistake on my part and it took me years to change my mind. Hopefully, I learned and am not as prone to be manipulated.
I am actually very grateful for the negative experiences from the bed kooks I’ve encountered. It gives me a fairly good picture as to what I shall not become.
Elizabeth: Geir posed a very specific question, which I quoted before I answered. I made no attempt to address the question of gaining a new reality of a bigger picture. It seems obvious to me that one cannot liberate and empower anyone through domination and suppression. I also haven’t seen a great deal of benefit in terms of liberation or empowerment (other than temporary satisfaction) from invalidation and evaluation in my own evolution — quite the contrary. These behaviors wreak havoc on auditing processes, not to mention a great deal of misery one way or another. And yes, one can get to a state where none of this has any meaning, yet the consequences of behavior, one way or another, is what one addresses throughout one’s auditing on various flows. So apparently, it does have meaning and importance and value. On the other hand I have seen respect and good communication result in liberation and empowerment, transcending temporal suffering and enslavement. i.e. I don’t think you can use force to MAKE someone find their own liberation from whatever has them trapped, at least not with any true permanence.
Since you have specifically asked about what I think about kooks and Scientology, this is what I think about it. Kook is a rather poorly defined slang expression used to indicate a greater or lesser degree of deviation from the “norm,” whatever that may be, used to label people that others find strange, eccentric or crazy. So I think that anyone who starts along a path that steps beyond the bounds of the norm is going to be given a kooky label to a greater or lesser degree. But I don’t think being a kook as much to do with good or bad communication or with treating others with respect unless the person has so wildly diverged from the norm that others are turning away in dismay because the gap in reality is just too great. I know some very good communicators who treat others with respect who are very kooky. I have often been accused of being a kook myself, especially when I get on a roll about subjective matters that others have not experienced themselves. Oh well.
Maria, I have totally missed the point.. what the posting was all about….therefore my comments are irrelevant… should be voided… I am not surprised of me missing Geirs reality.. or any other persons in fact…. Marildi has been good in many occasions to help me out, she points me back…. So please accept my sincere apology and I mean that!.
Apology accepted! No worries Elizabeth.
beloved critter… trust me, i have no worries, because i know when i am wrong and the apology comes as easy as the knowledge it self.. being wrong simply is wrong.. and i have no problem being… in recent somebody called me insane…. she 100 percent believes it… i agreed … i could see her view point… hehehe.. fun… i dont have the need to stick to my guns…. valuless… totally.. and i dont have the need to cause ARCB’s either..that would not be OK…
It always seemed to me that having the tech was used as a serfac to allow people to ignore it. Somehow, being able to make it all right again made it OK to screw it all up in the first place. LRH seemed to operate on that basis.
Also, No Case On Post, by which we mean you can’t complain no matter how badly I screw you over. Once the guy at the top has that attitude, there’s no arguing with it. If you fight back, it means you are exhibiting case, so you automatically lose.
I recall a mid-50s lecture where LRH said that just about everybody who became interested in and then involved in Scientology considered himself or herself a bit of an oddball. So, it is Source data, I guess, that you have to be at least an oddball, if not an outright wierdo, be take up with Scn! And then, as you strip off more and more of the aspects of your case that help congeal you into the mass of everyday planet Earth human on the street, you become even more individual, move volatile emotionally and more aware of another memorable LRH datum: The greatest pretense is the pretense that it’s not all pretense.
hehe – good one
good for you!!!!!!!!!!! you have my agreement…. not much… i know.. but still…have a lovely day!!
Certainly you can give other examples of ‘kooks’ besides Koos, who was, after all, a target of Scientology’s Guardian’s Office for having written attacks on Jane Kember, and other executives before they went to were caight and went to jail.
You can read a bit about this history, written by someone who knew him before and after his time in the GO. http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/koos-scn-resp.htm
Before that, he was a main player in the GO game but he became a target. He became an enemy. He bacame fair game.
Did OSA tell you he was a kook? Did they tell you to ignore him or join in on the bullbait fest?
I don’t know why, after seeing his posts and knowing his history of having worked with OSA, you would intentionally drag his name up again calling him the ‘kookiest’ when the internet if filled with accusations and judgements enough about the guy. As you must know, all the reiteration does is fuel more of the same. where he goes on and on and defends against this with fury. Why spotlight him, knowing all this? Why push his buttons like that?
I, in once trying to defend him against the repeated baiting, bullying and harassment certain posters would aim at him ( including their calling him a murder when he was never found to be one) was in fact attacked in response by Koos because I stated in a post the fact that he is not mentally stable and should be left alone.
I regret saying that and I, too, I should have known better. You can read his response to my doing this, which he posted on ARS:
The Strange Motivation of Mary McConnell for ‘defending Koos’ against some potential murderers {HRI note 20080528-V3.2}
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/koos-nolst-trenite/jADzO_09Clo
I didn’t reply to this last post. I didn’t respond. I didn’t feed him more to get upset about. I let it go.
I figured he deserved at least that for my comment.
What I do have is a very nice heartfelt email he sent me prior to that post above, thanking me for speaking the truth in a comment on ARS about the tragedy of his daughter’s death. I would have done that for anyone falsely accused but I felt he deserved that much because he was receiving these attacks and accusations from a handful of meanspirited bullying scientology critics on that forum – a small percentage of the very many good critics helping expose the truth about Scientology back in those days.
You could named as biggest ‘kook’ another poster on ARS, who shall remain unnamed, but I suspect you didn’t because you didn’t want your life and blog targeted – as is always the response from that poster. So you picked Koos….. who frankly does not deserve the mocking.
I was never in comm with Koos, nor did I post anything. The reason I picked him is because of all the insanities I saw on ARS, his telepathic sessions struck me as the most insane. I could have picked scores of others, but none of them stuck quite as vividly to my mind.
As regards Koos and his telepathic sessions: He may have had an unusual method of addressing what he was addressing, but it seems to me that he simply took the telepathic methods used on OT3 and NOTs and ran with them. So did Captain Bill. The New Agers call it channeling. They ask a question and they get an answer. From someone or something. Sometimes entire volumes of communication such as found in the sacred texts of most of the world’s religions or like the Urantia or Oahpse. Channeled communications are wildly variant, inconsistent, very surprising, and most “respectable” people find them kooky, insane, and symptomatic of mental illness, which is just another way of saying that a person is a kook and should be stomped, ridiculed, ignored and dismissed. What intrigues me about the Koos sessions is that as a result of all that, he identified criminal minds as those who wish to kill joy (among other attributes.) I think he nailed it on that. He also had rather lengthy session where he took LRH to task for perverting the purpose of Scientology and putting what Koos defines as criminal minds in charge of the organization. He could be right about that. And who knows, maybe he really did take LRH to task. Maybe he is the reason that LRH published the Way to Happiness. Truth may actually be stranger than fiction. Perhaps the only reason Koos was thought to be a kook and a nutcase was because he communicated what he was doing and then again maybe it was just a wonderful device to carry a message he wished to communicate. He sure got slammed though didn’t he!!
Really good post Maria. Leave it to you to penetrate the status quo.
Regarding criminal minds, killing joy would be one of the sadistic variety. Another variety is the criminal exchange type where a person fails to understand and acknowledge the difference between his own mind and the real world. The mechanics of the two seem to operate differently.
Yes, the broad umbrella of the concept of criminality has many faces. Perhaps it is hair-splitting but it seems that intent, deliberate and calculated is the core element of the criminal mind as Koos sees it. It isn’t just the killing of joy, it is the deliberate intent to do so, knowingly and with malice. I think this may be what Geir is getting at when he speaks of kindness.
+1
Intent is the key – to everything!
I think it is important to recognize that “other realities,” even when they have no destructive intent, can get labeled as criminal especially in cults like COS and in the cult of our society at large. “Destructive intent” is easy to argue as criminal. But I think Geir also wanted to make the point in the OP that “kookiness” alone can get the bad rap without any destructive intention, just being different is not a crime, but it can get labeled as a crime or just shunned as in commitment to mental institutions (Valkov, 2 cents please?) I know we aren’t disagreeing on this, it is just a point I wanted to write.
Thanks Maria! Nice post.
Here is one Kooks reality. only in fact small part of it… boiled down to the bones and jell…called .aspic in the cook book, Marildi you are welcome for the recepy for hog slop hehehe…
In my reality? Very simple: The superficial exterior ‘’the mask’ ’which is learned act a put an and worn by every person: is a very fragile facade- it is a smoke screen disguise and held there by rules and regulations which one must fallow: those rules and regulations in order to be accepted to belong, to be a part of the game.
One must behave …conduct self in a accepted way, there is a requirement by all to be polite … well-mannered.. courteous at all-time therefore need to be grooved from early age on into the use of good mannerism at all times…and one must keep to all the laws in order to be safe… in order not to be labeled… outlawed as different, insane, suppressive, no good, black sheep, big mouth, ugly, who is lacking social graces therefore should not being allowed in respectable, decent, good upright company… establishments. Hehehe bloody Hell.. Into a “nice prison” one is locked in for eternity!!!
Each game has its own rules the members must obey or being given warning…example here in this blog ”be polite, be civil, be courteous at all time, one must not think too differently, should be very similar in thinking-agreement-reality and one should never step out of the outlined rules .… shit… lets solidify the bank, let’s make it more solid…
Hence “”the walls of politeness”” must remain intact at all times and behind those wall the true reality of the person is hidden lurking, lie in wait and agonises struggles alone. Oh but that is OK, we all know it is there but we must not experience that temper, that agony, that real persons true reality… not proper to let it hang out others to see.
But we need the protection from bad mannered who speaks out so freely [beware, we are advised: different reality can alter one’s own believes, and God forbid that should ever happen] … hehehe…
Good manners are tools and used as such… also protects one from attacks because by agreements it is good to be gracious… having good manners than one is liked… and labeled as a good person easy to be with, becomes popular: that is another pile of the same stuff and makes the bank more solid
But what is under that mask that thin façade? Who is that being?
That being has lived experienced practiced millions of different life’s…has been everywhere in the Universe… have done everything… killed… murdered and being killed thousands of times… Had lived life’s as saint.. Sage.. Warrior.. Gardener… magician, scientist, drug addict, blown planets and its occupants to oblivion, part taken in millions of different doing-ness, had attachment to immense different varieties of bodies, created and experienced everything under all the Suns….. Since all the Suns and everything under were her creations….
It takes lots of control- self-restraint to keep to the rules at all times,[[ fear do the controlling, the fear of loss, losing whatever one thing has value ]] to walk within the outlined thin line of polite… laws, regulations, mannerism, be nice, be good, behave and say the right thing at all times in order to be allowed to remain within the group… one can’t shout ‘’hey stupid’’ and OT’s, scientologist should not say fuck off hehehe… and definitely should be nice at all times since they post to be spiritual.. Enlightened beings and all beings that are spiritual should by nice and polite???? DHAAAAA?
Auditing, even a smallest amount removes, cracks shatters that thin façade which is a protection and has become a self-created prison wall- barricade and thoroughly confining…limiting and restraining most of all not Allowing that being to show the true self who has millions of faces-abilities, that incredible powerful being that mighty creator of the Universe….
Without that confining restraining façade, one feels free, ventures, one dares risks speaks honestly…. Ventures to show ones feelings, dares to show express likes or dislikes, dares to love like never loved before, dares to shout, and demands, wants now and not tomorrow… don’t give a hoot what others think any more….
Yes, when the façade the mask cracks or removed than there is a real being becomes visible who steps out of that thin walled confinement and can and dares to be different…. Auditing works… even the minimum amount brings changes: believes the reality is altered, which is the cause of the behaviour – conduct of that person.
Persons entered scientology in order to find the different path to get away, to break away from the human realities which are the prison, but it is the same time demanded required to stay remain the same, otherwise labeled insane, crazy, mad, bad tempered etc… bloody hell.. You can have it all.. Not my game… I am off to see the wizard the wonderful wizard of OZ… hehehe.. we will have coffee.. in his magical garden… crazy, happy to be one! Love the stuff…
Wow, Elizabeth, I think you have given one of the best explanations for Geir’s observation: “…what I am targetting here is the inability to treat others with respect, the inability to resolve situations with good communication.”
I believe that what you said in your post is explained tech-wise in this passage from Scientology 8-8008 (LRH’s italics are substituted with caps):
“The Sub-zero to 40.0 Scale is the range of the thetan…The Body-Plus-Thetan Scale is from 0.0 to 4.0 and the position on the scale is established by the social environment and education of the composite being and is a stimulus-response scale. The preclear is initially above this 0.375 on the Body-Plus-Thetan range. Then, on auditing he commonly drops from the false tone of the Body-Plus Thetan Scale and into the true tone of the thetan.
“This is actually the only self-determined tone present – the actual tone of the thetan. From this Sub-zero, he quickly rises upscale through the entire range, as a thetan, and generally settles at 20.0 and in command of the body and situations. The course of auditing, then, takes the preclear, quite automatically, down from the FALSE TONE of the Body-Plus-Thetan Scale to the ACTUAL TONE of the thetan. Then the tone of the thetan rises back up the scale level by level.
“It is not uncommon to find the preclear (who IS the thetan) quite raving made under the false “veneer” of social and educational stimulus-response training. And to discover that the preclear, while behaving quite normally in the Body-Plus-Thetan state, becomes irrational in the course of auditing. BUT DESPITE THIS, the preclear is actually being far more sane and rational than every before. And the moment he discovers himself as himself, as THE source of energy and personality and beingness of a body, he becomes physically and mentally better. Thus the auditor must not be dismayed at the course of tone, but should simply persevere until he has the thetan up into rational range. A raving mad thetan is far more sane than a normal human being. But then, as you audit, observe it for yourself.”
.
What I get from the above is that in some cases it would be a matter of the Scientologist now being on a tone level that is no longer based on social conditioning and stimulus-response. At the initial low levels of the Thetan Scale that he is now on, he wouldn’t “resolve situations with good comunication” since below 2.0, per Science of Survival, the person method of handling others is through domination and nullification. This would be especially show up in people who aren’t trained and haven’t learned their TRs well.
“AND THE MOMENT HE DISCOVERS himself as himself, as THE source of energy and personality and beingness of a body, he becomes physically and mentally better.”
As the source of energy and personality and beingness of a body (which I call my body) I choose to create energies, personalities and beingness that reflects values that empower and liberate. I no longer feel a necessity, whether fear or peer driven, to rant and rave and get all bent out of shape to demonstrate that I can. I can. I choose not to. Free will.
Right, Maria. What you have choosen to create would be the highest method of handling others – enhancement. You got the product of Scientology – which is self-determinism. Or, as you put it, free will. 🙂
Marildi, this is not quite how it is. It is true that I got that particular product of Scientology along the way, which is self-determinism. But self-determinism is limited and limiting. I am not even sure that there REALLY is such a state other than as a state of defensiveness and limitation. What I am quite certain of is that there can be greater and greater connection on a greater and greater scale and in that direction there is abundance and joy and that abundance and joy is the very source of life and joy and healing and a peaceful equanimity that is endless. I would not limit this with the idea of self-determinism, nor would I consider that I am that source, rather I can choose to act as a conduit as I participate in a bodily state, and as I do that I am sourcing. The confusion seems to be a matter of trying to limit this sourcing. As I connect and create along / with / through the vast yet intangible ocean of life itself, I am sourcing and the more I am sourcing the more I am sourcing. I am and I source. The choice is on what/whom to source.
Amen 🙂
Maria, what I got from your post was that you “no longer feel a necessity” to demonstrate how “free” you are – unlike some Scientologists who rant and rave to show that they are not other-determined, by society or anything else. Worse than that would be just using “self-determinism” as an excuse to flaunt society and decency. (And yet others, as I said in the post you first replied to, may be simply moving up the tone scale.)
But when I indicated that you got the product of Scientology, self-determinism, I was actually using it in the sense of pan-determinism, as LRH did in the early 50’s before he differentiated the two – such as in the Scale of Self-determinism of 1952 (Scn 0-8), where “self-determinism” goes all the way up to 40.0.
I certainly didn’t mean that you got the product of this definition of self-determinism: “a condition of determining the actions of self. It is a first dynamic action and leaves the remaining seven undetermined or, in actuality, in opposition to the self.” I know you better than that! 😉
p.s. I shouldn’t evaluate that it was necessarily from Scientology, but I’m sure that it took you at least a good portion of the way.
Yes Marildi, Scientology certainly did contribute along my way but the major shift that resulted in this way of doing cannot be attributed to Scientology at all — it came after I was no longer involved or working with Scientology principles per se. I will also add that it really doesn’t have a parallel or similarity to pan-determinism either.
Okay, I think it got through that time. And if I hadn’t been so stuck in a certain train of thought (LOL) I probably would have understood the first time that you were saying something entirely different than I was. I’ve seen your many comments describing your personal awarenesses, including in the exchanges between you and Elizabeth and you and Rafael, for example. Some of those descriptions, what I got from them, were clearly beyond Scientology as I think of it.
Dennis, on the other hand, seems to have transcended the typical and expected Scientology results too although I never got that he has delved into anything else particularly. And not to say that his reality is the same as yours or Elizabeth’s or Rafael’s (that I know of), or to assume that any one of you has the same reality as any of the others – I just mention Dennis as another example of someone reaching a point of transcendence to a whole different sphere. In his case, perhaps it was Scientology that gave him back enough self possession (or, loosely, “self-determinism”) to go beyond it. That, in fact, is what I personally consider to be the ultimate product of Scientology.
And not to say that you would not have found your way to where you are even without Scientology! I have no reason to doubt you would have. 🙂
You two girls are Wonders, i love to read your comments because what you two write about is new, news to me…. My knowledge strickly the outcome from cognition… you show me different side of reality what scientologist see … has learned… great stuff..
the Wizard send you his best and invites you for a cup of peach nectar….
Marildi thanks for the ack above… trully .. love ya…
PS; after that great win I told you about my space feels very quiet and empty today…. the universe rearranges it energy flows once more… but my sleeve are roled up i am ready as always to face a new challange.. what a universe….
Elizabeth: “…my sleeve are rolled up i am ready as always to face a new challange.. what a universe….
And that, in turn, is what I love about you. 🙂
Loved your fabulous win, too. Best wishes to the wizard. 😉
Marildi… i cant comprehand tech talk…. just dont sink in… Since it is manual… and i cant understand those…. what i write here is not understandible to others why I cant comprehand manual….but you should know manuals dont exist in the universe where i live. we dont have rules, regulations, law… we just create and experience in the same moment…so there is only ”now”
Nice hearing from you again Elizabeth in the “now”. love…
love you too dear!!!
LOL, I want to be crazy like you!
ah… than you allready are…. welcome to the club of nowhere…..very private: everybody belongs there knowingly or unknowingly… if aware of it or not that is…hehehe… and we dont have predudice about the color ones unmentionable.
So you have taken a journey in my universe in my reality [reading the postings in my blog] and realized something…. since you had a few of those while reading the cognitions….. but your barriers have stopped you continuing?..
Maybe you realized that I am not crazy at all but simply I express my thoughts freely differently and that is the reason in comparison to normal thinking my reality is crazy, but this is it, since I don’t know any other form of communication-reality the “normal” is gone..
You have no idea just how many hours I have been in session with the item of ”’communication” in forms of every idea passible what is communication and what-why one holds back such a creation…” since communication is the only creation there is..”
Creating energy is the only ability one has, but it is uncontrolled, flowing continually, that is the reason the universe expanding.
The only thing can retract –as-is – null that energy is confrontation… That is why auditing –sessions work… Mind you The Black Holes do the same job out there but going through those holes sucks away, burns the energy and causes a problem the same time…..[every solution becomes a problem] when one reaches the other side, by than one becomes totally ‘’cleansed ‘’ of energy-mass and one is no longer have the awareness the reality of self, I, etc.. the beingness since being something or somebody is energy, consideration on awareness those too is burned-sucked away. So one reaching the other side becomes nothing but the universe itself the one-ness re-experienced without identity. Interesting experience I must add,.
Auditing –sessions work because in sessions one confront as-is, burns off that extra unwanted energy but the awareness, consciousness is not diminished but increases…improves …expands and one retains the knowledge but without the burden of accumulated energy.
PS: In other place and other time, and this practice is still in use: criminals are sent through those Back Holes …
To have experience of such a creation as the Black Hole one experience or becomes the same power as the Black Hole and that is the reason all other considerations fall away… Human believes-thoughts or any believes, holds has power as little or almost nothing in comparion to some of the Universal naturally created phenomenal.
Have a very good evening and dont step into any Black Holes!!!! If you do,no worry mate just give me ginggle, I come to your rescue i know the way! 🙂
Like I said before – physics and cosmology theorists of the world, take note! 🙂
But Dharling, who would listen to such uneducated person, after all Dhharling… she has done waitress work and has cleaned houses for the living… And she dont have any letter not eve BS 🙂 after her name, what possible credibility has she… Learned that stuff while cleanig toilett bowls???
PLEASE DHHHHHARLING DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT SUCH SOMEBODY COULD HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS AND BELIEVE YOU ARE ON IDIOT!
DHHHHHARLING, you are right. Only crazy people would listen.
(LIke the Einsteins of the world. ;))
Now, where could I run into one? If I would, what than? What possibly could i convince or want to convince any one to believe? What would be the gain? For him or her and me?
you know by now that between the theory and experience there is a difference… so huge..those who are guessing.. sitting around and throwing words about, look for clues, search out information from others, speculate, fitting the pieces together… interesting pass time…
the experience is simply that… no guessing. done and over.. that is that…
http://youtu.be/CEEPaYD5KZE jungle book, i wanna be like you! so you want crazy? my all time favorite!
Kooks? In other words people with different opinions, likes, and temperment than you? Yea scientology will do that, remove the things that make a person fit the narrow mold of what society at large finds acceptable.
People outside the mold is where you get your artists, inventors, poets, writers and other assorted boundery pushers.
To label them kooks, (and thus implying you are not) is to put yourself in the straight jacket of normality and conformity.
I’ll take kooks any day over normals.
Did you read the blog post?
Yes. Why?
Because of this – the main point of the blog post:
“But beyond the positive quirks or cute eccentricities, what I am targetting here is the inability to treat others with respect, the inability to resolve situations with good communication.”
My reading didn’t identify that quote as the main point of your post. What I felt the main point of your post was a put down of people who engaged in scientology as deficient. Whereas my opinion was and is that what you see as a deficiency is merely a difference that lies outside YOUR norm.
What you consider “good communication” or even “situations” may differ from others considerations.
You most obviously also missed another point in my post. Please re-read the whole post.
Dave, I sort of thought we all got into Scientology to remedy some deficiency?
I too have missed the point, what is in fact expresses “your reality” and re-read your post.. nothing wrong being wrong, having different reality on the same wording. just given new opportunity to learn… good one,thanks..
huh? Dave, I think you got the wrong emphasis from the OP. Geir includes himself as one of the kooks; however, I am glad that you and I are not one of those kooks. haha
Dave, if you are looking for a friend who is a kook as in hungaria, kuku than you got me… hehehe but you better be one too! otherwise friendship is off!
You gotten one comment, agreement a compliment a offer of friendship… than what? not even a ack, a smily face? Dave offering friendhip is a compliment. big time in my reality offering of or receiving compliment is a honor, because friendship of any kind is a gift offering to share something.
🙂 Right, we can pay attention to this from all sides all the time and be better off for it . . . And I’m your friend even if a little bit quiet for a while. But by now, we don’t need too much verbal chatter to know what the other is thinking, do we? The desert nights here are dark except for sparkly clear dry nights and hot winds blowing . . . was that yours or my hot air? hehe
Chris you do tread on my toes often and the reason for that because you don’t know how I think, you assume you do…
If you would put the Assuming about my reality to the back burner and put a tight lid on it than we can communicate… oddly you never apologise, in hungarian we would say doing giving apology will not make one lose ones crown…
. . . maybe have fewer toes? 😉
I am waiting, or I hould not hold my breath either till you do, right..?
Now you are really teasing me! . . . breathing air? hehe — when did you decide that was necessary? Well, from one kook to another, “Ne legy olyan erzekeny!” hehe
You are missing the point.
Chris, I will not say I am always right no matter what I do, I am always right within the limit of my own universe. But outside of that when in communication with others while I express my reality with that reality- communication, I have no idea just how many ARCB’s I cause.
That is impossible to know of course till somebody rips your heart out, yells creams at you etc…with that let you know that your reality hit the different buttons apposite of your intent…
But when somebody lets me know that I am wrong and have caused ARCB in their universe I do sincerely apologize.
Well then sometimes maybe I think you are joking me when you aren’t. Regardless, for each time that I have stepped on your toes, I do apologize. If I didn’t tell you lately that I like and respect you, then I apologize for that as well. You’ve empowered me to take responsibility for my own case. I learned several things from you that I use and which continue to help me live more consistently which is very satisfying to me. When others said, “ooooh! Chris is crossing a line!” You have encouraged me to not just step but to jump waaay across the line. I consider this to have been the help of a friend and would feel sad if I thought you didn’t know that.
Thank You…
respact was not the point and you know that. You not need to bow down in any way.
Oh, respact I need like an extra hole on my head, useless comodity..so please dont offer any…:)
🙂 There Elizabeth, a smiley for you! 🙂
My apologies for missing your offer, my attention was on Geir’s insinuation that my reading skills were deficient. I removed him from my Facebook® friends list and vowed to avoid his internet presences in the future, and had not revisited this blog till now. (Due to an email of your follow up comment)
It is sweet of you to offer friendship, but you may find me to be a bit old, grumpy, cynical and cold. If you see me elsewhere please do consider me at least friendly! I don’t plan on being here much.
🙂
Dave, I got that and thank you ever so much…
But listen here, I promised I will never ever post anything in Geirs blog, list half a dozen times. [Marildi knows about that ] I complained to her about him and not only once, than I had sessions on his lack of acking me, how I felt pissed off at him, I but my upsets did not become less since I could not find the reason why I was so upset with that man.
THAN I HAD A BRILLIANT IDEA!!!!! Light…. action…. camera: back into session and my first question was ‘ ‘What have I done to Geir!!!’’
The roof caved in and the pictures rolled and rolled and rolled: I was confronting, pulling my Overts like rotten teeth’s had I dozens on him and while I was doing that pulling my Overts I realized Hell, idiot, that is me of course, no wonder he ignores and wont ack you most of the time… Bloody Hell, I am not surprised that he did not fly over and cut my heart out and feed it to the sharks dropping it to the ocean while flying home.
.[ I also had other realization of the cruelty and the ease we do thinks with, we all share a very long track we all know each other very well]
I am saying here is , we do push buttons unknowingly of course and I am sure, very sure he did not meant to hurt you in any way..
You see Dave in this blog we can learn, teach: since that is the same… here we are equal without any pretense… we are all expending, we are all becoming better because we are learning to exchange negative view points to healthier ones which moves us bit higher on the tone scale..
Grumpy you say? That is OK, don’t forget Geir too has grumpy moments, and me, I positively move into battle mode wielding a flaming sword when somebody steps an my toes, and yell: Look out!
So let it hang out, yell a bit, let off some accumulated steam… hehehe.. love ya kid, no matter how grumpy you are..
David, here in many ways we do help each other…so please…stay…
You cold, grumpy cynical and old Person? you can comment in my blog too… you are welcome there too and not just here.
… Talking about old bodies I cant believe my body is 72 and as a bodie goes over the hill.. You see Dave, old is a consideration a assumption, on agreement, so is cold and crumpy, I am clueless what is cynical means I need to look it up.. 🙂
Dave, even though Geir specified “the main point of the blog post” (quoting him there), I understood what you meant when you wrote: “My reading didn’t identify that quote as the main point of your post”. His viewpoint about kooks in Scientology was strongly expressed and took up all but the last paragraph (the one he quoted to you) – and that paragraph itself was a question based on the point about all the kooks.
Surprising to me, and what is interestingly ironic about the exchange, is that the two of you more or less served as an example of that final observation (and his main point) about Scientologists – the inability to “resolve situations with good communication.” You could have taken it up and set him straight if you felt he had the wrong approach with you. Or you could have simply supported your take on his post with one good argument or another.
On Geir’s part, sending you back to “restudy your materials” (like a good Supervisor would do, which he is trained as) came across to you as offensive and I can see how it might have felt condescending from your standpoint. At best, it obviously wasn’t the correct ARC in the “situation”, based on the effect it created.
But even after goofing up, there is virtually always a way to get a discussion back on the rails if that is the intention and if the basics of communication are known. And I’m sure both of you know those basics. My viewpoint is that the comm cycle was simply never completed. 😉
= ARCx
Right. And those can be always be handled, in session and in real life too – if those involved have their intention in and bypass their reactions. 🙂
p.s. I should have included: …and apply the principles of good communication.
MARILDI HAS SPOKEN! AND RIGHT YOU ARE!!! I love the way you sort out things. 🙂 I alway wonder: how come I did not see that?
But again we see differently which is very good.
Thanks, Eliz!
Btw, I thought Chris’ intention and ARC in his comm cycle with you today was really good. And the fact that he was expressing respect for you was simply from his viewpoint – not that he thought you needed it or wanted it – so don’t take it that way, if you do. Plus, he did apologize for whatever it was that the two of you were referring to, which I thought was admirable and we should acknowledge it. He apparently wants to clear the air and IMO that kind of intention on both sides is the best one can ever ask of a friendship. 🙂
Thanks my dear friend..
Thanks Marildi. Couldn’t have said it so well as you just did.
I think I have you pegged by now. 😉
And I love a man who can say I’m sorry. 🙂
LOL, well remember you’ve only pegged the persona that I presented! 😉 There’s less to me than meets the eye! 😀
LOL 😀
Well, I love the persona then. Including for sure the part of being one very funny guy! 🙂
I think Scn can breed fanaticism. What you often see are fanatics arguing. The anti are often disillusioned/injured exes and so have fanatical reactions.
have ARC-B’s???? 🙂 It was good talking with you..
Isene: But beyond the positive quirks or cute eccentricities, what I am targeting here is the inability to treat others with respect, the inability to resolve situations with good communication.
Soderqvist1: how come that some Scientologists behave like negative kooks?
Because L. Ron Hubbard had some weird ideas about responsibility, ethics, morals, and his followers reflect this. Look at the definition of responsibility in Tech Dictionary!
http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1350&Itemid=165
It is also a very well known fact, or dictum in Scientology that the individual is always responsible for his condition. I have two experiences of this. I will put it short; I was part-time Staff here in Sweden in the autumn of 1982 and was late to the staff meeting because my craze neighbor in the next house had punched me in the face, and told me that the my stereo sound was too high, but nobody else has complained about it. But anyway it took some time to handle the situation, and thus I ended up late at the staff meeting. They told me that I am responsible for it, they had no sympathy for me, but my coworkers at my company I work for had. It was interesting to note the difference in the level of compassion between CoS and my Company!
Another incident was in the year 1985 and I was the book store area and saw Kurt Stahl OT5 enter the org and was quite upset because some chaps outside the org had mess with him or just had some fun with him he was quite upset when he came in and start argue loudly, or just screamed when he talked with CO, and I thought when I saw him that what the hell is going on? He stared at me and began to walk at me and start screaming at me, and I didn’t understood what’s happened. I hold my position like a “TRbot”. Some days later I told him that I wanted to talk with him in private, and he agreed, and I asked him about his behavior? And he shrugged his shoulder with a smile, and mocked me! And I knew what his sneer or grin means; ‘I am responsible for it’ because a thetan is cause, and if I am effect it means that I have pullet it in because of the overt -motivator sequence!
I am not a Scientologist anymore so I know that the offenders in the incidents are responsible for it. The first crime is assault, and the other crime is molestation according to the first definition of molest in Webster. The offender is always responsible for the crime, never the victim, and to hell with Hubbard’s “responsibility!”
Paulette Cooper and Fair Game, responsibilities of leaders etc comes to my mind!
Here’s a different take on responsibility:
Thanks for posting that link. I really like your approach to the subject, it is “de” limiting or “un” limiting rather than limiting.
Agree. These “determinisms” as taught by LRH are not so pat. And the idea that pan-determinism is a type of self-determinism on a larger scale is a misunderstanding of pan-determinism.
And maybe that is the reason that kindness can be so powerful. It takes looking at things from another’s viewpoint to stimulate the desire to be kind.
oh… the MU galores are many as suns in the universe…. sooner or later, it might take nother 100 lifetimes to live for some to realize that they has to confront them…. but let me tell you my friend that will be your greates adventure of your creation!!!! fun you will have and you will love every second of it….trust me…it has been written in the Book Of Knowledge: The Future:writen in this book that the past will be erased… whan that happens, the concepts of good and evil vanish, will be no more….be well.and do well… elizabeth
I notice how many different people who have contributed comments to this post. I enjoy that. It seems this post sparked more than just a Scientology flame war. When you look over the posts that received the most number of comments, you will see that they are fuelled by heated debates or very strong differences in viewpoint and some contributors go back-and-fort over a several hundred comments. Sometimes the end product is a good one – with the debaters learning something new and molding their own viewpoints. But often it ends up in the debaters having solidified their viewpoints through the need to defend them.
This thread seems different. I wonder why.
1. The long break in blogging may have contributed. Contributors have been refreshed.
2. The very public Cruse-Holmes split has been another tipping point for the rigid thinking promoted by COS. For those ex-members who get on with their life and don’t think too much about COS, the press has brought the subject back to the front of our thoughts. Lurkers not prone to write may have tipped on this point.
3. Your neutral invitation was appealing.
we know why…. mind reader!!!!!!!!
Geir, I had been meaning to make a similar comment, to the effect of how many wonderful posts there were with so many good insights! I got a lot out of the comments and expanded my viewpoint, Hope they helped to resolve the enigma for you too.
I think one reason why this thread is different is that your blog post showed a fairness and acknowledgement of a variety of viewpoints. Most everybody got an ack! 😀 Plus, I think that all those thousands of comments in the famous flame wars of the last couple years resolved many things for many of us. All the slugging it out actually got a product and times have changed, I think. Take a win on your generous acceptance in hosting it all that time and hanging in there with us 🙂
I cannot believe that nobody has mentioned the mother of all kooks yet.
Naming Barbara Schwarz at least once is mandatory when talking about A.R.S.
And well, why does Scientology attract kooks?
Ehem, it’s a frigging UFO cult. Whadda ya expect?
Who would be attracted by the promise of being an Übermensch in the first place?
Also take a look at Hubbard, the nuclear scientist and war hero. Crazy likes company.
hehe – good post. Who is not attracted to the promise of Übermensch ? It is a very appealing idea especially in a world that shows us daily that we are impotent to do very much about our fate.
And that counts even more for people who are even less a powerful/ less accepted person in social life due to their, erm, uncommon behavioral treats or views.
How much more appealing would that promise be to such a person, the ability to get rid of all the stares and ridicule from the “normal” people and show them just what a kind of hero he really is?
Krautfag , is this kraut and fag? hallejua… very unique…
so tell me why that person has the need to prove self to others what he realy is? and why not prove something for self when that is achieved than one really dont give a fig what others think of him… this is my reality of course flows out of experience..this is 2 cent wort, in canadian money.. hehehe..
PS: blame never gets one anywhere, no one has made that person into that person but self. responsibility need to kick in sometimes in ones long long track and say what i got is what i have created… ..and it is so easy to admit that..nothing to it..
Well, I can’t tell you why as I roll the same way you do 🙂
I figure it’s a basic want in some folks to be loved by anyone and to bring good upon mankind, whether mankind wants it or not.
we role the same way… fun… but that would be mighty difficult.. only bodies can do that …
Geir-
What name did you post under on ARS?
I never posted. I only did research. And one time I got in direct contact with Andreas Heldal-Lund, anonymously – but the conversation went nowhere.
I cross-checked IP-addresses, downloaded the full FZ-site on a CD and other such stuff.
I posted as Poopsy Charmichael.
Perhaps you were impressed with me. You can now tell your children and your grandchildren “I knew Alanzo when he was still Poopsy Charmichael”.
And…. AL’S BACK!
Not really. I’m a new man now. I’m into pole vaulting.
With pole vaulting, I have reached heights where nothing could strike me down.
Pix, Al, PiX!
“…heights where nothing could strike me down”
Al, that is hilarious! I have missed your sense of humor. 😀
Knew you’d come… (Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade)
Teh Alanzo.
And, yes, gibe pix from xour pole, plox. 😛
The milquetoast, middle class bourgeoisie thing was never for me. I’ve always joined weird groups of people, just like you described, G. Libertarians, Scientologists, etc. I’ve always called them the “striped shirt, plaid pants” crowd.
Of course, the kookiest group I have always longed to be part of was a kind of Algonquin Roundtable.
Maybe it’s possible again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algonquin_Round_Table
I noticed the kooks in the scn group too, but then I just realized they are just different, like me. Learning to grant beingness and have understanding, they just became different or individual that’s all. Makes the world more interesting anyway.
You were a nerd – neat! Look what you are now. I was a naive girl till my thirties and still somewhat with some paranoidism since an osa experience, which I’m fairly emerged from. Hopefully blossoming to be a real kook and not worry about it!
We trained as auditors, we learned the Auditors Code and when we stuck to those principles, we and our friends won.
But along with the Red on White, and even the Green on White, there was a learned culture of Scn that wasn’t really written down, but nonetheless real. It was this unwritten culture that said it was necessary to scream at people to “get their fucking stats up” as a management technique, to use out of ARC methods to handle people. I believe a lot of this culture had its genesis on the Apollo, from LRH and messengers treating people harshly, and insisting others below them do the same.
What started out as a small tumor has now spread widely and is a factor that is killing organized Scn.
Well, if your stats are up, “you can get away with murder”.
“There is so much good in the worst of us and so much bad in the best of us,’ that it ill behooves any of us to talk about the rest of us.”
LRH’s huge contributions for the good far outweighed the bad, don’t forget.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on that point. Scientology has done far more bad than it has done good. Just look at the numbers. They make claims of 8-12 million. Now of course those are ridiculous, but that is the kind of exposure it has had. And how many stayed? How many lives ruined, families ripped apart, bankrupt, etc. No, as much as I wish it were as you think, his creation has done more harm than good and that includes DM’s handiwork, because without LRH Davey would never have had the chance.
The contributions I was referring to weren’t just whatever good has been achieved thus far in comparison to the bad, considering all the things you correctly point out – and we could add more. I was talking about the basic discoveries about the mind and spirit and the tech based on those – which will continue to contribute enormously in the eons to come, IMHO.
I suspect that you won’t agree with that either but, as an educated guess, I would bet that you have not trained very much or if you have you haven’t spent much time in the chair. The latter is where a real duplication of the tech and the value of Scientology most certainly comes about, with regard to most people.
I’ve done quite a lot of training, CL V pre-GAT, and about 1000 lectures including the BC. Audited hundreds of hours in the chair (not that much compared to many but certainly no slouch (was the HGC auditor in CL V org for a time). I was a “techie” so I duplicated the tech quite well thank you.
I’m not swayed. I think the Co$ is going to die soon unless something drastic happens to turn it around. Without an organization, scientology will soon fade into obscurity, so the “future” good you are banking on is not so assured.
freebeing, you are looking at a very-very small picture… and Marildi is 100% right.
Yes, Elizabeth, I understand what you are saying. I however, do not give the credit to LRH the Master Implanter. I am happy to give credit to you my dear 🙂
As is probably pretty clear, my opinion of LRH is not a good one. All the acclaim he is/was given was due to false-PR (lies) You see in LRH a beneficial intent. But I maintain that that was in the main mere PR and that his intent was far from good, witness the lies about himself, the results, SO, the RPF, heavy ethics, etc.
That he and OTHERS developed some workable tech based on the work of earlier genius, I do not dispute. That Elizabeth seems to have found a use for this tech BEYOND WHAT LRH EVER TAUGHT is to be credited to HER, not LRH. If she had done what 99.5% of all other scios have done then NOBODY would know what she has discovered. Elizabeth can hail the workability of the tech, but again I will point out that nobody knew it’s workability until she found out for herself. LRH didn’t know it because if he did he would have had everyone doing what she is doing, but that didn’t happen. So the credit goes to HER, not him in my universe.
(A bit more rant on my part)
Yes, the tech gives people wins. It handles things. But how many “real” OTs has it made? ZERO. It is supposed to make OTs damn it! And it doesn’t, so on that basis one can say that it doesn’t work. I hope that is quite clear? When someone sells you a bread-maker you damn well expect it to make bread. When you get to OT VIII you are NOT an OT. You arrive there on the bridge and find yourself looking over the edge into the abyss, the destination way way off in the distance. When I say workability, I’m talking about taking one out of the trap of the MEST universe. That isn’t on the extant Grade Chart. We were told it was but it just isn’t there. The “bridge” LRH left take you maybe 0.1 – 1% of the way there by Elizabeth’s accounting.
Where are the hip hip hoorays for her? Of course she doesn’t want any, she just wants us all to DO IT. LOL.
OK rant over 😀
FB “But how many “real” OTs has it made? ZERO.”
You could also say “How many flying cars has Detroit made? ZERO.” A true enough statement but highly missing the point of what it takes to get there. Is the bridge misleading at the OT end? I expect so and yet much anecdotal evidence exists that indicates OT abilities do occur on the upper levels, just not stably so.
As far as bitching about Ron, Doc Whittaker said it just fine. Read here: http://possiblyhelpfuladvice.com/?p=9109
As far as where the OT levels are and what it takes to make an extended bridge, that’s a subject of interest to me and others. A lot of work and thought and research will have to go into the job of getting there. Is that a challenge that interests you?
The bridge is not missleading, it is just the start of things. I have written about that in my posts so aften…
Just to inform you it has been achieved “the so called NATIVE STATE ” by me and by using the good old TECH…
You may call it extended OT levels I just call it continual simple sessions. how is about 120000 hours of solo hours sound to you, in 39 years?
you think one can achieve something with that amount of confronting? like becoming a OT, which is just two letters picked out of the thin air whitout being experienced.
So therefor I will not call my self OT.
Elizabeth you can say the “bridge” is not misleading, but what you are doing is not on the “official” bridge. You did not follow the “bridge” to achieve native state. You blazed your own trail. The FZ & Indies are not doing Elizabeth’s Bridge nor is corporate Scn. Ron was selling what he knew he couldn’t deliver. He wasn’t honest about it. Sorry if you don’t like that I say the facts of the matter. I think that one should be honest when one is selling something, especially if you are selling them their “eternity”! If I found out that what you are telling us is not true, I would say so too.
It is wonderful what you have accomplished. How you do it should be written up clearly and in detail for application and made broadly known so that more people can follow if they so choose.
Freebeing..
Yes Ron was selling and most of it was cheap garage sale items but sifting through there were treasures among the garbage.. Their value is immeasurable and It was up to each individual being to recognize the value.
I read so much garbage what has happen in the church what the members were made to do how they suffered. Well listen mate…. BLAME. BLAME, BLAME, nothing but blame I hear.. Who twisted their arms, who tied them to the chair and under drug influence made them sign contract, who told them they have to endure sell they house wife children… What are people mindless cattle or ship who cant think for them self? Shit, I never heard so much stupidity piled up sky high as the “ MEMOIRES OF THE CHURCH MEMBERS. The stories are nothing but bragging, one is out doing the another “LOOK HOW MUCH I HAVE ENDURED SUFFEREF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO ME!!!! Shit….. BLAME…. Unbelievable… and you wondering why they have not duplicated the material, realized its value and use the bloody thing to free them self..
So get over it, it was a game for you and you know that, you agreed to do it every day… everybody can walk away. “But I wanted to help they cry!!!” Sure you did… Hell, I stop here… before I say what I really think….
ha, I’m going to quote myself and rant a bit more, lol
“LRH didn’t know it because if he did he would have had everyone doing what she is doing, but that didn’t happen.”
Actually, I’m not so sure he would have had everyone doing it. Why? Because he created a money grubbing CULT instead of taking the subject in a direction that could have produced the desired result. His purpose, stated way back in 1938 (after writing Excalibur) in a letter to his wife Polly, was to SMASH HIS NAME INTO HISTORY. If you read his affirmations from 1938 – 1946 you will clearly see where his head was at. And if you look at his intentions and what actually transpired, it is quite clear that he was carrying out his desires.
Many like to place the blame on nasty Davie, and he sure is messing things up royally, but the genus of that lies directly in the lap of Ron. Ron created the Sea Org, the RPF, the demand for cash, the “donation” system, the IAS, the CMO, Thursday’s at 2, over-boarding, SP Declares, criminal ops on “perceived” enemies (those that dare tell the truth about what was going on) and on and on.
If you want a more complete picture you should read this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/32798968/The-Brainwashing-Manual
It “peels the onion” on Scientology. There’s quite a bit of LRH Policy that public and staff never get to see, the issues are confidential and not because they contain “upper-level” material, but contain policy that might “raise an eyebrow” or two. This is GO/OSA policy that the “church” operated on way back when and right up to this minute.
You know I wish it was as LRH PR’d, but sadly it just ain’t so.
So yes, use the tech to better yourself and follow in Elizabeth’s footsteps and go free. But don’t be naive about the real story of the man I once considered “mankind’s greatest friend”. If I’d known the truth, I could have saved a lot of time and money and I’d probably be lot further along the way today. But hey, life is in you today and you make your own tomorrows, right? 😉 lol
I’m going in session, see you all on the flip side!
I am the last person who will point finger… There is not one being who has caused-created less.
By the time you will have ten thousand hours of solo auditing under your belt and you have asked the questions of O/W ‘s in every session you will find that you are not so pure your self… so stop… it has no point…you are not on this planet because you are on angel sitting on the cloud and playing a harp… and having a halo around your transparent head.
Who you are kidding? session is a good idea, and give your-self s reward after that and have one more.. Who are we to list sins of others?? madness that is..
Freebeing, i am not interested reading any more garbage about the church… each individual have-experience their own creation there is nothing more and nothing less.
Geir, it would really be useful if this blog went to more reply levels.
Elizabeth: What do you mean I am not a angel? pffffft, my harp is out of tune for sure. After 10K hours I will let you know, but probably I will still be a devil.
2ndxmr: Yes, it is a challenge that interests me greatly.
must be out of tune…. But when you get there, and I am sure you will if you still believe that you are the ”Devil” than you will simply know that your next item is DEVIL, being one and Hell creating one and into session you will go,. You have read my postings, recall reading : The most difficult session I ever had.” It was about the “HELL and the Devil. I mean it… That concept is very heavy and it exist as a strong implant, why people would believe in it if it would not exist? it is a deeply planted whatever the Hell that is….It is a control mechanizem, soaked in fear and ”Behave or else!!!!”
I think it’s important to remember that Scientology is Complete . . . Therefore it was written.
huh? Not sure what you are trying to say here.
Complete? Um. no, there’s nothing “complete” about it.
can be used to achieve what it was intended to do? do auditing works? if you look for garbage you will find garbage.. My-self I only see the good, what it can be acconplished by usinmg the TECH. But the tech need to be used not just quoted….
Irony. rhetorical device – referring to our many discussions of Gödel’s.
For my own sake, there are three questions I want to look into :
Why are kooks joining in on anything,
why are some of these kooks not improving from their training, and
why are some of these kooks being kept in an organization and also given position
even if they do not improve their skills (in this case comms)
Why are kooks joining in on anything ?
(eg why I am reading and posting on Geir’s blog … 🙂 )
I think basically they do because they think and / or feel that there is room for them even with
their kooki-ness. I sincerely believe that even the most kooki one actually wants to be part of
something, maybe to kind of reduce their own perception of being “outside”.
However I also believe that there is also this Übermensch-idea that some stick to, as Chris and others mentions above, eg. either in the way of “I am Übermensch because I am kooki”, or “I can become Übermensch because I am a kook”.
Why are some of these kooks not improving from their training ?
I think basically there are different reason for entering training, some sincerely do it to learn more and improve, others because it is expected that they do enter, others again because they want to bed a nice teacher, others again because they want to work their way into the good graces of the teachers and managers of the org …
Why are some of these kooks being kept in an organization
and also given position even if they do not improve their skills ?
For me this is a real mystery of management that I think only political science can explain.
Some people seem to have political skills (let’s call it that for simplicity) even if they
are kooks in other ways and outright idiots in other fields. (just remembering Geir’story
about ITUL).
I believe it is because they have a way of convincing THEIR superiors that they are able to
treat their own sub-ordinates in the way that the superiors also would do, and to achieve the
specified expected targets while they more or or less keep their subordinates on scared tip-toes
with the threat of the whip or beatings (literal or oral).
This type of managers are everywhere and only suitable quality control and anonymous checkings
can keep them out. Even large companies like GE, HP, IBM etc have this kind of people, AND accept their behavior.
However I think there are some driving forces that either limit or increase their influence.
In economically good times their influence is somewhat reduced as people will have more choices
of selecting other jobs and a large turnover of people is usually visible if somebody wants to look for it.
On the other side, economically dire times usually increase their influence as people will tend to
rather hold out the devil the know than look for another …
In voluntary orgs, such people can literally be disastrous as people who work there for some cause usually will get pissed from working with them and thus seek other orgs …
Tor Ivar,
In true reality there are no KOOKs just existance of different believes, in other word NO AGREEMENT.
Erzsebet Dear, I hope the canadian summer has been better than our norwegian. We have this joke here now on the bible telling about rain for 40 days and nights and calling it disaster, while we here in Norway just call it summer … 😀
But, can we not at least agree to disagree on this point about kooks ?
To me it’s just a label to categorize people acc to some level of skill in a certain discipline … 🙂
Else, how’s the reading going, have you come to Caemlyn or did you give up when the Trollocs entered the scene ?
Hugs from Norway ! 😀
Hello and a hug back, happy to see you 🙂
We had 11 months of mostly cloudy rainy what ever it was… for the last 12 days we have a heat wave of course to which we are not used to.
I started to read the books and I have given them back to the library. The reason to stop reading: Intrigue, killing shaming, spying who has done what to others I was not interested in… [and the path of magic I have investigated myself].. Perhaps because we can see the same reported in the news [ which I have given up months back] and I have seen the same actions by recalling other life times… So that was that.. Go has figure it out for yourself and have fun, I was just putting there my Canadian 2 cent.
More likely We the kook’s unite because we yearn to get out of the normal…???
Of course we can disagree, lets have one!!! 🙂 lets have two! 🙂
Marildi and I we do it time to time just to see what happens..what we can come up with… in a good debate one learns a lot.
Scn orgs are so desparate for staff they will take anyone that meets their minimum qualifications. Training is very minimal. Admin training is not going to unkook a kook, nor will Tech training. IT takes removing case to unkook a kook. In 30 years I saw virtually no staff getting any auditing that was “bridge” related unless they paid for it themselves – so staff don’t get their cases resolved.
Big corps like IBM are much more careful about who they hire. They also have little tolerance for anti-social behavior due to risk of lawsuits, they have HR depts. where complaints can be made and the complainer is not targeted with “how did YOU pull it in” crap.
In Scn, the fact is that these abusive practices came right from the tippity top. If the boss is doing it then certainly it is ok for me to do it, since everyone wants to be like Ron. So it is no mystery why SRAs (severe reality adjustemsnts), “face ripping”, physical assault, are present throughout the organization now from Int right on down to local orgs.
I agree with this. I was shocked when I saw the footage of that lady (her name escapes me) who was the Captain of I think the Apollo talking about how LRH had treated staff. That was way back then. I agree the bahaviour of any staff is effected from the very top. Violation of human rights has been going on in that “church” for a very long time. The all important stats were really all that counted as far as I could see. It was the most un-spiritual religious organisation I had come in contact with. When my husband went off with another Scientologists, the then Captain of my org was hell bent on getting me in session to get her stats up. I was so traumatized that I couldn’t sleep so my ability to be session able was nil. The pressure was incredible. There was no care. She even told me to stop being dramatic when I was crying. This was my marriage of 20 years. When she couldn’t get me sessionable
Sorry, the rest of the post: when she couldn’t get me sessionable, she tried to force me to join the SO. Another attemp to get the stats up. I finally walked out of that org and have never stepped a foot back in there. Stats are all the staff care about at the end of the day for fear of being treated
Like the scum of the Earth, no matter how many years of their lives they have devoted to it. It’s hideous.
Vixen, have you thought that those people are there where they need to be in order to have a lesson and to learn from that lesson?
Control, blame, being a victim, not able to think for self, allow others to take over, allow self to be treated in the worst manner say a lot where both parties are on the tone scale.
Elizabeth, I’m not a victim. I’m a winner. I don’t regret a moment of my life. I made some bad choices but I have learned the best life lessons from them. My life is just one big character building exercise.
Fantastic, than you should look at others the same way as you look at your own experiences. They too in the church doing the same, they are there where they need to be in order to learn and take responsibility. Let us allow them that. not to make them out to be monsters and victims… they are in a game… nothing more….
Vixen, every one of those so called badly treated stuff members have enough power to pulverize this planet and have done so in their past. Many of times over and created planets too, every one of them are a very powerful being. The MEST universe is the playground for spiritual beings: operating thetans and every existing condition here is a game condition.. created=do, to be and to have=experienced
I believe allowing beingness to others is to accept where they are at not seeing it as bad or good actions-beingness, but just being different from our view points.
freebeing you are blowing on your trumpet a very old tune….
So what is blame?
Doing something and realizing it was not very good, clever, smart, beneficial, and realizing that others might think, will think and believe one is not very smart in fact one looks very stupid ignorant – unaware – unconscious – doing something like that.. and nobody in their right mind want to look stupid-ignorant, the EGO-BANK WONT ALLOW THAT So one fabricates a wonderful story how one was tricked – mislead – misinformed- deceived – trapped – fooled –cheated while playing such a game and now everybody and believe one was just a innocent by stander and nothing more.. and the other party was the villain.
SO called smart people don’t want to look stupid, do they? They don’t want to admit yes they can be and act in matters where the outcome don’t look good in eyes of others… so let’s paint the devil really black.. To admit is taking responsibility for ones actions.
And why is the agreement from others? We need mutual agreement because next time I be doing something stupid others must return the favor and believe my story too that others did that to me and I am not stupid at all. Hands washes hands… than all is well in the mutually -created heaven…
But what do I know I am just a simple person and nothing more..
Well you asked for a disagreement in an earlier post and you now have one.
I suppose if you see a child being abused as you sit in a park, is this your reaction? “Oh look how their EGO BANKS are at play here! How silly these beings are.” You don’t do or say say anything? You just enjoy how lovely the park is?
Yes, there is a GAME going on here called Scientology. And I can comment on that game as I choose. You of course have every right to filter things as you see fit.
you may make me look any way you like: stupid, uninformed, idiot dont make any difference in my universe: since i am and have been all that, but what were the parents thinking allowing such to happen? Where was their thoughts to allow such happen to them and their off spring… So dont give me flack –not thinking is just that..
Mister just going up on the OT levels with that one person effects millions of beings in this Universe and that takes let say 1000 hours of auditing.
So judge only when you have the facts together. Talk is cheap….. doing -ness has the value and you sure dont have reality what i can do… when you have the urge to judge my universe again and invalidate: do zip it…
I will also point out that “the infinite” has known all along the solution to the MEST entrapment game.
I am fine with your reality what ever that is… i have no need to convince you to have different… do have a lovely day…
The above comment was for freebeing..