My Scientology enigma

I am faced with an enigma. Would you help me solve it?

  1. I have been involved in Scientology since 1984. I did all the available spiritual levels delivered by the Church – up and including OT 8. And I have gotten personal gains from every level, every service. I left the Church in 2009 for reasons well known, but my personal experiences in Scientology has been very beneficial. I have personally witnessed many people having gotten personal gains from Scientology.
  2. When I sit back and look at the products or results produced through Scientology, I see a lousy scene. I see an over-representation of struggling or even failing people, and of outlandish people with wild conspiracy theories. And this is regardless of Scientology practiced in the Church or outside. I fail to see Scientology produce OTs as defined by L. Ron Hubbard. I cannot see Scientology produce better-than-average lives.

This is the conundrum – I cannot reconcile 1 and 2 above. I have for years tried to explain or justify why this is not so – or why it is so. I have attempted explanations such as “people are not using Scientology proper”, “they fail to understand and apply the technology or policies involved”, “people are just out-ethics or PTS“, “Scientology are under suppression by the government”, etc, etc. But none of these actually explain the lousy scene that is obvious to my eyes and ears.

While I have many thoughts on this, I will leave the floor open for discussion and see what conclusions we can arrive at.

480 thoughts on “My Scientology enigma

  1. Bullseye, with these thoughts I declared myself a no-longer-a- Scientologist somewhat recently.

    I think the spirit has been lost. Scientology is something like alternative psychology. Down to earth. What matters is to key out and feel better, not handle. The Bridge is not full. People expect some expert top lead them. They are scarred to apply old OT processes. What else…

    1. It only makes sense that since Miscavige has altered the technology over and over again, that he also damaged the upper auditing levels for his own financial gains and to keep a perverted control over Scientologists.. Here is what top Class Xll auditor, Pierre Ethier has to say. See if it makes sense to you.

      There is no such thing as OLD and NEW OT Levels, except within RTC‘s feverish mind (and therefore those of its followers). Except for “old OT I” (originally developed in 1966 and found in 1967 by LRH to be a dead-end), there has not been, since 1967 any “OLD OT Levels”.
      Its core issues written up in 1969, LRH found OT VIII to be “only for a High level Thetan“, and the gradient simply too steep for most people, even a Full OT 7 completion. It took nearly a decade for tech to be developed to address those points.
      Finally in 1978, LRH triumphantly announced that NOTS was the answer and the prerequisite for OT VIII. NOTS was found to be a far longer rundown than originally expected. Unfortunately over the next few years, RTC and the CSI (Church of Scientology International) re-wrote the bridge solely for “Marketing” and “Income Making Purposes” and not for “technical Reasons”. NOTS, became “New OT V”. The Solo NOTS Course (NOT an OT level, by any standard), became “New OT VI”, and Solo NOTS (essentially the continuation of NOTS auditing, but done Solo, became “New OT VII”. This was done, disregarding the obvious fact that by making “New Levels”, the previous ones of the same name automatically became “OLD”, in complete contrast to the Issues on technical Degrades. The issues on technical degrades are deemed so important by LRH, that he has ordered them to be at the beginning of every single course in Scientology. There is also no issue whatsoever or even order from LRH advising to market NOTS and Solo NOTS as “New OT V-VII” and to drop the previous line-up. This was a “bright idea” entirely dreamed up by the “New Management”. To compound the felony, the entirety of the NOTS materials was purposely NEVER fully released by the Church to its own auditors or Public!
      The original issues of NOTS date from 1978-9. Additions were made in 1982, more in 1984. In 1991, several dozens pages of actual original LRH NOTS and LRH Solo NOTS materials was released as “New NOTS Rundowns”. Faithful to its insatiable greed, the Church promptly found new names to market them such as “The Held-Down Seven Rundown”, or the NOTS Stability Rundowns”. Had the Church been more honest, they would have called them “The previously withheld NOTS rundowns”. In the same vein in 1996 and 1998 “Newly found” (or rather withheld” materials) were announced, as a method of generating interest in an ever increasing bored public. Scores of “Newly found LRH Tech” still awaits Flag public and their eventually release is planned over the next several decades.
      Why would someone do such a thing? More crass than the mere Evil Intent to Harm others because of some fancied threat, (the true genus of the Suppressive), Money and Greed are the actual motives. By releasing the entirety of NOTS and OT VIII, Flag is in great Danger of forever loosing its public, because they have no Intention of releasing OT IX anytime soon. The publicly admitted goal of the Church is that when every Organization (as of the 1990s) is the size of “Old St-Hill”, OT IX will be released. Considering that the average Organization has substantially lower statistics than a decade ago and that some have even permanently closed their doors, that goal is in no danger of being attained in the foreseeable future. By keeping a trickle of LRH Tech coming in, the Church feels it can maintain its rein over all of its public. Better yet, by releasing “New Vital Tech” the Church can even justify recycling its OT VIII public through a second run of NOTS and then OT VIII (a cycle they may feel justified in repeating over and over if the number of its public continues at its current stagnant level). Add an infinite variation of Sec-Checks and False Purpose Rundowns done to address any fancied wrongs the individual may have ever committed this lifetime, and you now obtain a bottomless Technical Estimate, capable of bankrupting even the wealthiest of its public. As an added bonus, the latest tech Individual to have fallen out of favor will become the perfect scapegoat for having been “discovered to have withheld those materials”, when new materials are to be released.
      OT VIII was originally written up in 1969. Around 1983, LRH wrote the final piece of that Rundown, a final step intended to polish up and stabilize the results.
      Either deliberately, or perhaps, more accurately, as a direct result of the unawareness brought about by the burden of heavy overts, the individuals responsible for compiling OT VIII, for its 1989 release aboard the Freewinds, entirely disregarded the original OT VIII materials and merely released the “final piece” as if it were the entire Rundown. The rest is History. In spite of the carefully controlled hype, the original release of OT VIII went like a lead balloon. Within just three months, well over 10% of its original public completions were dropping off like flies either dead or seriously ill, or victim of an accident or a crime. Many of the “younger public” were either tepid about the results or per actual session records, simply incapable of running the level with any substance or reality. The actual technical reason is actually not hard to imagine. Beside the fact that they were missing the majority of the rundown, younger public had never done the Original OT VII. The Original OT VII is a beautiful Level that has a lot to do with the ability to project one’s Intention across. OT VIII was originally developed assuming everyone would have done OT VII prior to it.
      OT VIII
      LRH says that OT VIII handles the subject of Amnesia on the Whole Track. By addressing the failure of the thetan to maintain his pan determined Viewpoint and remain unaffected by unpleasant experiences, one can handle the basic reason why a thetan start to go down the effect scale from total Awareness toward oblivion. A Rehabilitation of one’s ability to view the Whole Track, and addressing the factors that predisposed one to have a Reactive Mind in the first place are the type of abilities one should expect at this level, aptly called “Truth revealed”.
      OT IX
      OT IX (Orders of Magnitude) was originally forgotten by both RTC and the Church of Spiritual technology in 1982 when legally registering them to their names and erroneously named Character (OT X). For someone familiar with that level, the Technical reason for it is extremely clear. OT IX (Orders of Magnitude) intensely deals with the Universe of Others. It requires no special knowledge to realize that a small elitist clique devout on perverting a valuable subject for its selfish gain and that an organization (The Church of Spiritual technology), whose board of Directors is exclusively composed by people practicing a profession that is dedicated at manipulating the truth to satisfy private interests (lawyers) are incapable of any true awareness of the Universe of Others.
      At OT IX one should expect a whole new level of Interaction with others, especially at the OT ability level. Things like telepathy and “reading minds” are closely associated with this level. Contrarily to the lower end of the Bridge, on each of those Upper Levels, the individual is expected to produce “tangible” and measurable results, nor mere subjective gain. After all we are dealing with factual OT abilities here, not merely “feeling better”.
      Whereas, the lower end of the bridge is almost exclusively dealing with “negative Gain”, i.e. getting rid of what is wrong with one self, the Upper OT Levels deal almost exclusively with “Positive Gain”, i.e. Gaining Abilities and rehabilitating a being. Dianetics, OT III, NOTS are example of Negative Gains. The Original OT IV-VII, OT IX and beyond are examples of Positive Gain
      OT X
      OT X, Character, addresses the subject of Postulates. On this Level one confronts why some, in spite of an apparent High level of OT still revel in Evil and why others remain good. OT X is meant to rehabilitate one’s fundamental purpose and blow all the reasons one would ever become PTS in the first place. The result is a very fortified thetan with an enormously increased ability to make his own postulates stick. This level explains the reason why “old curses” sometimes work, and provide the ability to blow them.
      OT XI
      Operating is a true OT Level. This is a Level the Church, who is now effectively under the Control of the US Government, is and should be terrified of. This level deals with Remote Viewing. Remote Viewing is the worst possible commodity for the corrupt individual or Organization. It is not that a decadent Organization is so much terrified at the idea of its secrets being known, but rather its elitist clique goes into a complete frenzy at the thought that its dirty backroom deals, its bribes and its secretly committing the very same acts they routinely expose in others, could become common knowledge.
      OT XII
      At this Level, one starts to have a new understanding and viewpoint of the Physical Universe and its components: Matter, Energy, Space and Time. New notions about time are part of this level. One of the things discovered on this level is that the flow of Time is not a constant and that time actually is flowing faster today than on the early track. This level revolutionizes most people’s understanding about Physics. A whole new concept about the Future opens up.
      OT XIII
      The Church does not name this Level. Its name is “Knowledge”
      OT XIV
      The Church does not name this Level. Its name is “Ability”
      OT XV
      The Church does not name this Level. Its name is “Freedom”
      From all evidences, neither the Church, nor the Government is interested in making people truly OT.
      A true OT cannot be fully controlled against his will. He will not become the adverse effect of an individual or a group.
      A true OT automatically supports what is good and tries to prevent what is Evil.
      A true OT perceives the ulterior motives and hidden agendas of others.
      Read the “OT Wins” from Advance magazines from the 1970s and compare them to “OT Wins” in recent Church Publications such as Freewinds or “Source”.
      The former talks about remotely causing effects, bona-fide miracles, exterior phenomena and actually exercising one’s OT skills.
      The later merely talks about “Feeling great”, “Handling one’s difficulties” and “Getting rid of undesirable traits”.
      In other words, the Church’s OT Wins have now degraded themselves to the level of those achievable on Lower grades.
      If you don’t believe it, pick up a recent copy of the Freewinds magazine and compare it to an early Advance Mag.
      Pierre Ethier
      Class XII

          1. Many of the EPs on the chart are so nebulous that they can mean litterally dozens of things to different people. Most are hard to grasp. Like what the heck is “Cause over life” exactly?
            So, I don’t know what I got in relation to something that nebulous. I only know what I got.

            1. I don’t relate my wins on OT7 to that nebulous EP. And I believe I have written many times what gains I actually got from that level 🙂

            2. Ok. You don’t relate your wins on OT7 to that nebulous EP. You say that you have written many times what gains you have got from that level. I may have missed them, as I don’t remember you writing about it. It may be boring for you to repeat your wins, so I am not asking you to do that. I just love reading about another’s wins, also, in a new unit of time wins tend to expand. So?

            3. Ok, I just recall you writing about retaining and using certain viewpoints. What came immediately after that that one of the Ls, one of the Super Power processes are handling Ethics. No idea why it came to my mind, kind of related to your ‘ a method of handling another’. Something like, it is healthy to finish a cycle at Power so that the Conditions of Existence applied on your attention units of Scientology could be freed. In a kind of ‘no tool’ and ‘free use of a tool’ condition. If it is a stupidity, it’s ok, as I am trained only to a certain level.

            4. Geir, this is a point where I wish that I was more trained. As what I wrote above is not stupid at all. As you are trained, you will make out, from what I write, the solution to that. Unless you have a completely FREE point of view of scientology in ‘this lifetime’, you will take with you what has not been completed to the ‘next’. Also, if you want to ‘expand’ and ‘evolve’, a complete love-affinity for the subject, the persons is advisable. You may not see it the way I do, I don’t know, but when one agrees to viewpoints, one can restrict oneself to that degree. Especially to those viewpoints which come from the lower parts of the tone-scale. There is a chance then to look at why one agrees.

            5. Geir, in an e-book of a collection of Alan Walter’s posts of several years ago, he was asked about the meaning “cause over” and I thought his answer was pretty interesting:
              “Able to bring into motion –

              More cause – Able to continue the motion –

              The faster the motion the higher the cause – the higher the cause the higher the mood level!


              Click to access The-ESMB-Posts.pdf


              Btw, I think he referred to tone level as “mood level” because he dealt with a lot of non-Scientologists.

            6. It’s a matter of degree, isn’t it? Everyone operates as a thetan to at least a slight degree or they would be less than zombies – they at least move their own bodies into motion.

              I can probably find the reference where LRH talks about being OT and cause over as a gradient thing. Consider, for example, what you yourself can “bring into motion” and “continue the motion of” compared to…well, various people you could think of.

            7. As an EP, I think this might answer what it is:

              “So you could probably move somebody out of the physical universe as an exterior; you could probably take a Clear Exterior and you could probably exteriorize him from the universe, too. But again, this would be a situation where you were just merely making an exterior, and it would undoubtedly be completely unstable. Because in actual fact, this person is not at cause over life, thought, matter, energy, space and time. He’s not at cause over this stuff. He is still very much the effect of this stuff. And as long as he is thoroughly the effect of this stuff all the way up the line, why, of course he cannot exteriorize from the stuff.

              We’re getting this strange being who isn’t just suddenly all-powerful or something of the sort. We’re getting this being who is all-powerful and still can fix the kid’s electric train, do you see?…And he knows all about life, you know? He knows this whole pattern out here of the causes and effects of various things and how they’re interwoven and what happens and what doesn’t happen – he knows all these things by experience. Without suffering from the experience, he yet has the experience.”

              (SHSBC-445 – 29.11.66 “Scientology Definitions”)

            8. Marildi; That quote doesn’t do that much – because how would you know that you have achieved “Cause over Life”? It is one of the most nebulous and untestable statement I’ve seen.

            9. ‘How would you know that you have achieved Cause over Life’?
              For me the second quote explains it. ‘….he knows all these things by experience’.
              It is related to what you said earlier of factually experiencing anything.

            10. But right there it becomes unattestable of course (even as nebulous that it still is) – because one would have to live a full life or many to be ble to know.

            11. ‘without suffering from the experience, he yet has the experience’

              ‘Has’…true havingness by pervading, perceiving without a flinch, without forming a thought of why one does not like the experience, that is one is not resisting it at all.

            12. Geir
              What I wrote above is not an answer to what you wrote as you answered while I was writing. Yet, interestingly, the two are related and your answer helped me to see it.

              What one can attest to may be the ABILITY (by def. : observe, decide, act). Which one will, from then on, LIVE in experiences not yet experienced up to that point. Life is ever-changing, so by living this ability more and more, one is simultaneously living true havingness.

        1. Or maybe you were just sold part of a bridge. Here is information about a man who worked directly with LRH, saw the alterations to the tech start to happen when DM took control back in the 80’s. He preserved the tech and they don’t use anything with LRH’s name on it past the year 1980. The people are getting the kinds of wins I remember back in the late 70’s when I was on staff. Exciting! I say don’t give up your quest to get whatever spiritual enlightenment you wanted when you got involved with the Cof$. Keep looking, it’s around.

          1. Barney, thanks for posting that article by Pierre. I’ve already forwarded it to 3 people I know. One thing that surprised me was where Pierre said OT VIII came out in 1989 – I had a friend who did it in 1988, just after the original Maiden Voyage.

            1. Your welcome! I have been reading a lot and watching videos Pierre makes as he travels around the world. He makes a lot of sense to me. I was around in the good ole days before the raids and GO out ethics. It was a BLAST. I loved it, lots of high ARC and every Friday we would hold graduation and people would get up and give their wins. We worked hard, but we enjoyed it, theta. Course rooms were pretty full.. LRH was still alive and well then. Everything changed once the GO infiltrated the government offices. At that point LRH ‘left the building’ so to speak. And then things got serious, management took over, harsh ethics were now the norm. So if you follow back as to when was everyone doing well, it is obvious that it was when LRH was providing the technology to go Clear, OT and to get other gains. I am now on the quest to get all the old library pre 1981. Everything else will go in the dumpsters once replaced. This Rons Org group I am checking out seems to line up with that same belief and they are surviving well even in the midst of all this suppression. Interesting!

            2. That’s the Scientology I experienced too, Barney. Thanks for the memories. 🙂

              And thanks for the additional links.

  2. I mean, let’s be honest. Actual OT phenomena sound untrue to most people, no? I think it shouldn’t be like that. People shouldn’t struggle with the Church and other stuff 20 years after they are gone. Pan-determinism shouldn’t be not-ised.

  3. I think if you gathered sufficient data on what an “average life” is, you would be well on your way to resolving your conundrum, Geir. Failing that, think back to what you were like before your gains from Scientology. What were you struggling with that you no longer struggle with? The average person struggles with that and more every day but with, at best, only a dim hope that if will ever improve. Probably more important than being able to make death rays shoot out of your eyes to vanquish your enemies is the ability to make a happy life and keep things interesting for yourself and your friends. Anyway, I wish you luck in resolving it!

    1. As an example; When I hire people for business I now do my utmost to avoid hiring people with a background in Scientology. I have hired scores of Scientologists and seen many more doing business (as suppliers, customers, etc) – both people in the CoS and outside. I have hired thousands of non-scientologists. From my extensive statistics I sadly must conclude that the chance of a failed hiring is much, much higher when the candidate has a Scientology background – like 3% against 60%. It’s crazy.

      1. The question is if it’s scientology what has messed them up or if they had been messed up before and scientology didn’t help them enough. Then a possible explanation occurs to me that scientology attracts mainly losers and can’t make them win.

      2. I see your point. I have also found that working for people with a Scientology background has been a challenge. Perhaps it goes both ways? Maybe keeping scientology out of the work place could help, but I must question your stats hahaha. I know that you have had fantastic people that worked for you who did have a scientology background also and can only hope you remember them in a positive way.

          1. I am so happy that you said this and agree with you. Glad you have not forgotten those that were so “there” for you as you created your company.

            1. I have created several companies. I guess you refer to FreeCode here, a company where I was very hesitant to recruit any Scientologists. Of the few I did hire, I did a couple of major mistakes – like the one ending in losing four offices in Russia. In general, I would avoid Scientologists when recruiting as the risk is too great.

              BTW; in reviewing my statistics, I realize that Scientologists would more easily pass my recruitment process. While it did limit the misrecruitment of non-Scientologists to about 3%, it didn’t limit the misrecruitment of Scientologists. So, if I simply remove the formal process for recruiting non-Scientologists, I estimate the comparable figure is about 30% – thus it would halve the risk of misrecruitment if I avoid hiring Scientologists.

          2. Yes I was refering to FreeCode because that was what you were doing when we met. It was impressive as a company and you had so many wonderful people working there.

            Best to you as you hire new people. We all can learn from our mistakes and it is so good that you now know what works for you and what does not.

      3. I think that most people are better after well done Scientology. They also tend to be quieter than most people as far as any personal difficulties are concerned. So, a “media illusion” effect can set in where things that get reported more appear to be the norm.

        I think if you took a sample of any people, and knew more about them, you’d be quite alarmed at how abberated they are. Most people put up a social veneer. Perhaps scientologists just do that less.

        1. I know very well the people I have recruited and worked with for years – the comparison is that the non-scientologists are in general more able than the scientologists. As an OT 8 friend of mine said “The good thing about non-scientologists is that they don’t know that they have a reactive mind to dramatize”.

      4. The company I worked for stopped hiring Scientologists and stopped servicing Scientologists. Why? Because they were insular, combative and extremely judgmental, even while knowing very little about the services offered. They “knew best.”

        I encountered this video, which seems to describe what I observed, both in and out of Scientology:

          1. Actually, it probably isn’t quite the right word. What I saw was that someone would display some kind of behavior. It would be tagged as low-toned, 1.1, downstat, entheta, out of PT, low confront, PTS, suppressive, banky, out-exchange, drama queen and so on. It would often take the form of a discussion when the other person wasn’t present to determine the correct handling or possible handling. A variant was to assume that the other person needed to be hatted, trained, handled, taught, or have their ethics put in. When there were several such employees, they tended to exclude other employees, forming into a clique of their own. It made for some difficult relations between the working group.

            1. A sad scene, often seen amongst Scientologists. Obsessing labeling that just create a bigger gap between “us” and “them”. Judgmental IS the perfect word, I was just being sarcastic. 🙂

        1. I was always annoyed by how some SCNists judged my tone level, and my being upstat/downstat or ethical/unethical and so on. That in itself is 1,1 in the first place, and there is no good intention to back it up. Don’t confuse it with the fact that some auditors needed to know tone levels for the purpose of running the right process.

      5. This is an opportunity to explore further.
        In what way were they defficient?

        What tech training had they had?
        What admin training?
        Case level?
        Ex staff?
        Ex public?
        On lines at the time?

        1. All of the above. Various training and grade levels. Unknown IQ.

          The staff that were hired were more concerned with disseminating Scientology than doing their jobs. They wanted to implement Scientology policy on their jobs and have the company run on that. The owner was seen to be out-ethics for not implementing policy. Non-Scientology co-worker’s opinions and contributions were not regarded as valuable as they were not on-policy or not a “correct” application of the tech.

          Clients were hard to work with because they were forever demanding service in excess of what they were willing to pay. Why? Because they were stressed out financially and wanted to eke out as much as they could for their buying dollar. They often did not pay their bills on time or didn’t pay them at all, often asking for more time or less charge in the interests of making a donation to the Church. Most had to be put on a pre-pay status.

          And then were the KRs that were written on an ongoing basis. Of course, the company was expected to foot the bill for the time they took to write them. The KR that was the straw that broke the camel’s back was to do with the owner’s refusal to sign up as a WISE member and implement standard policy per LRH. This was seen as disaffection and reported as disaffection.

          1. This is what happens when you adopt an ideology to do your thinking for you. The pathways become fixed and the behavior can only follow the ideology. The thinking is stuck, the evaluations are from only an ideologically approved viewpoint, the attitudes become fixed.

            Lesson: don’t adopt ideologies to do your thinking for you. If you “think with” Scientology, you will become smaller, more fixed, and less able over time.


            1. In my view, any fixation is an aberration because it is a “held down seven”. A fixation is used in every computation even when it is not relevant. It screws up the mind.

              An ideology is a fixation.

              This makes me wonder about the concept of STABLE DATUM which is restraining a confusion. It seems that keeping the stable datum fixedly there to restrain the confusion, will also keep the confusion there even when that confusion is restrained.

              Do we want to keep the confusion in a restrained condition? If we don’t have the confusion then we won’t need the stable datum either.

              So, a STABLE DATUM is not really the solution for a confusion. The solution is resolving the confusion. A stable datum is simply a stop-gap measure.

              SELF is such a stable datum.


            2. That was a crazy-good comment, Vin.

              I’m getting tired of the broken record where you rerereiterate your view on SELF.

              But the rest was actually new – and really cool. Thanks.

            3. May be you are getting tired because you don’t want to confront it.

              SELF is key point separating BRAHMIC religions from ABRAHAMIC religions.

              Your dilemma is the dilemma of all ABRAHAMIC religion’s followers.


            4. Or maybe I am tired of it because you have said this several hundred times on my blog.

            5. Why not? That is closer to the native state. Ha ha! Looks like I am ha ha-ing too much today. I must be going nuts.

              U (with a zero on top of it)

            6. “This makes me wonder about the concept of STABLE DATUM which is restraining a confusion. It seems that keeping the stable datum fixedly there to restrain the confusion, will also keep the confusion there even when that confusion is restrained.”

              Vin: All that is on Level 1, which is training to audit Grade 1 – Problems. There’s also this to consider:

              “Any body of knowledge is built from one datum. That is its stable datum. Invalidate it and the entire body of knowledge falls apart. A stable datum does not have to be the correct one. It is simply the one that keeps things from being in a confusion and on which others are aligned.” (Problems of Work)

              From that you can see that your own bodies of knowledge are built on stable datums and if not valid they will fall apart.

            7. Vin
              Self has to do with the mind as we know. When one gets totally tired with it (finding truth in data), one gives it up. The Flow of Life starts to operate then, new creations are born. They do not necessarily become data. No fixation – just a flow.

            8. Isene to Vin “you want me to grow autistic too?”
              Vin “why not that is closer to native state”.
              Aside from the joke part of it – being autistic can also mean being devoid of all cultural patterns of the mind. Indeed a clear/free mind. I know a boy like that. When I met him first, I could feel that “typical pure free energy” which sorrounds a free being. Everybody said he was strange, shy, non-communicative, non-behaving while interested in everything.
              His eyes are like “laser”, people can’t look into them long. His whole presence is “pure/love”. All sorts of phenomena in people’s reactions around him. He sure knows it – so he used to withdraw from people.
              I “helped” him a little, very little, much more another ( a man ). Basically, he is bringing change into “culture” and finally by finding a simple way to behave and express himself he can be more and more with people when he chooses to. I like the autistic I personally know – they have a unique blessing presence here in the world in my experi
              ence. I “learnt” a lot from that boy’s silent ways and on-the-point concise answers as well as from some others I know.

          2. Thanks Maria. Sounds feasable I take it Geir validates this?
            I don’t know you from Adam. Or should that be Eve:)

            1. I guess he does from his own experiences. I never worked with or for Geir. He made a comment that seems to agree with it from his own experience as did Annette.

              I should note that none of these people were freezone or independents, many were doing services at the Church and as far as I know they were in good standing.

              At the time WISE was pushing hard on business people to apply LRH policy to their businesses and make a payment of 20% of their GI to WISE for the privilege. It went over like a lead balloon with the owner of the business as 20% of the GI was 100% and then some of his profits.

          1. Geir.. scientology-auditing do not give abilities, but one regains what one have given up: forgotten what one had, auditing the cognitions only rehabilitates re-educates reorients one. When one regains ones abilities only difference is now one understands, what are the reasons the causes of the ARCB’s, problems etc…why one has forgotten, given up power, assigned responsibility and power to others.

          1. This is really a good point on the background training. I couldn’t speak to that – I was not privy to their employee background information. I can only tell you what they did that made them difficult to work with.

            As Geir has pointed out, there are Scientologists he hired that did work out on the hiring line, and that was true in the company I worked for as well, however, they had been trained that it was their job as Scientologists to write Knowledge Reports and failure to write those Knowledge Reports meant that they were culpable. So they wrote Knowledge Reports.

            What was interesting (and annoying) was that they did not write Knowledge Reports on non-Scientologists because the non-Scientologists didn’t have ethics files at the Church and therefore they were not responsible because they were not Scientologists! And therefore they needed to be “handled.”

            I don’t know how that way of thinking works out in terms of cleared cannibals, perhaps they thought the non-Scientologists were cannibals? At the least, they thought they were deficient and needed to be “handled.” The obnoxious thing was that they discussed these other people and tried to work out a handling for them without their knowledge or consent.

            This included an effort to do what I call “stat jumping,” which is monitoring PT production only and watching for what seemed to be drops in production stats — the person was jumped on as a “down-stat.” What they could not seem to get was that this company did have a cyclical business curve through a production year, seasonal off production times were used to pick up organizational and establishment type tasks which went by the boards during peak production periods. So of course the production stats were down. They also missed that customer satisfaction was VITAL TARGET ONE! Overloading areas reduced customer satisfaction as did demanding too much speed — speed gained at the expense of quality.

    2. There is no such thing as an “average life”. This is a hopelessly vague, un-quantifiable, and un-falsifiable, concept. Observations based on this concept could not lead to valid conclusions.

      Observations made by Scientologists of the effectiveness of Scientology rarely take into account the “misses”, which are usually the people who disappear from view. They commonly only count the “hits”, which are the people who stick around.

      You could be in an elevator filled with Scientologists, do a survey, and conclude that Scientology works 100% of the time! What you are not counting is all the people who left along the way.

      Geir, the stats which made you conclude that the majority of the Scientologists you hired are “failed hires” (whatever that definition means) are more accurate than the observation you made in your point #1. Are you counting – the misses – in the data which drew your conclusions for #1?

      If not, if you had a way to count the misses in Scientology, your observations in No. 1 may change.


      1. I count most everything.
        My perception of an “average lufe” is if course my own subjective assessment.

        1. When I was a course supervisor in a mission, I once took 10 years of data which covered Promo Out, Raw Book sales (RAW), New Names to central files (NNCF), First Service Starts (FSS), Course Room Resigns and Div 6 to Major.

          The data showed that way less than 1% of people introduced to Scientology through promo bought a book. WAY less than 1% of those ever took 1 course in Scientology. About 10% OF THOSE took a second course. And an infinitesimal amount of those actually became Scientologists.

          When you are a Scientologist, you only see the other Scientologists. You never see the multitudes of people who never even took a course. And the ones who took 1 course and never resigned always kind of get forgotten somehow. But even those are a very tiny fraction of people who even read a book.

          When you look at it this way, to conclude that “Scientology works” is a huge stretch. From this viewpoint one must ask: “Scientology works for whom?”

          A very tiny, but LOUD, fraction of human beings.


            1. Yeah. “Does Scientology work?” is an example of an improperly formed question. You can ask “Does Scientology work?” and get the answer “YES!”.

              But when you ask “Scientology works for whom?” you start to ALSO see the ones for whom Scientology did NOT work.

              Which group is bigger?


    3. I agree with you – having the ability to make a happy life is absolutely priceless.
      Personally, I would do anything to undo some of my experiences from Scientology. In the first place I didn’t enter Scientology to handle some struggling issues. If that was the case, I would probably be looking in other directions back then. More on that in a future blog post.
      From what I have observed in my own networks over the years, non-scientologists are GENUINELY happier – and also struggling with less everyday issues. Could it be due to their lack of “vital” knowledge? Well, they don’t know they have a planet to save and thus have to be on the church’s production line 24-7, or else…? Living under an authoritarian system where the church is everything and the individual is nothing?
      Of course I’ve also seen some people having great gains from Scientology.

      1. Anette
        “a planet to save” implies it is in continuous danger….so energy is put
        into danger all the time creating it continuously…danger implies non-survival….non-survival is fear….the opposite of love and compassion…

      2. Anette
        also…” I would do anything to undo some of my experiences from Scientology”. Geir in OT8…..” I am responsible for all my experiences”. Ask him what responsibility means (you may have already done that). My knowledge of it: 1. experiences are just that – experiences…good/bad/joy/pain etc. just all, full life on all levels of consciousness means just that FULL/ALL 2. understanding does not eliminate the energy contained in an experience, so one audits it or “meditates” or whatever “method” until the energy of it is gone 3. one “wakes up/gets off” it all (the energy also goes away in this way as there is no-one to fuel the experiences with that).
        One is responsible for one’s experiences each and every second….even in scientology….will be hard on you, you asked for it….but
        not so hard….that’s the good news part of it – What did you learn from
        those experiences? How did/do they HELP LIFE in the broader picture? Because the way I see it, you had to be there for some “wider”
        reason….to find out what that is – will get you closer to responsibility.
        My reality of it. I wonder what yours is or will be.

        1. WOW,
          Annette Do me a favour when you do your next grocery shopping buy on extra 10 pound and mail it please? The stores don’t carry any around here even catalogs stopped selling responsibility and I can’t even find used one.. and because you suffer so badly you understand my constant agony so please help me out.. send it. COD.. Thank you ever so much.. Elizabeth.:)

          1. You are responsible for what you can control. You are not responsible for what you can’t control.

            For instance, I am not responsible for the United States invading Iraq. There was absolutely nothing I could do to stop it, once Bush decided to go out and tell actual lies to people about the imminent threat that Saddam Hussein posed.

            I was not responsible for those lies. George Bush was. I did not make him lie, nor was there anything I could do to stop him from lying.

            It is very important to know what you can be responsible for, and what you can not be responsible for. Scientology tended to make you responsible for things that only delusional people would believe they caused. And this is one reason for the delusory thinking in Scientology, and the very bad decision making which occurs regularly when thinking with Scientology’s definition of responsibility.

            “Total Responsibility” was used to stick you to problems that weren’t yours. Don’t feel guilty, or like you are irresponsible, or a “victim”, if you believe that you are not responsible for the US invasion of Iraq. You are actually sane if you don’t feel you are. Unless you are George Bush.

            You are responsible for your response to the US invasion of Iraq. You can control your responses, and your own actions. You can not control “all flows on all dynamics”, though. If you accept that idea and try to operate your life on it, you will go insane and be very unhappy, and very ineffective at life.


        2. Of course one is responsible for one’s experiences. But nevertheless one can wish that some of those experiences never happened,
          I’ve learned a great deal from all my experiences – both from the good and the not so good ones.
          I guess many survivors of war, torture, rape etc. can agree to the above, regardless of what they learned from it.

          1. “one is responsible for one’s experiences”
            ahh, this is another Scientology shit, do not by it
            here and now we are responsible for those things which are in our “responsibility area” this can be small or great and can shrink or grow.
            if you would be responsible for anything you would not let responsibility for the others. now that would be cruel, isn’t:)))
            you are responsible for all your experiences would be similar to say to someone “you have all the time on the world” this is true but when you want to catch the bus at 11:20 if now is 11:03 you have maximum 17, ok, maybe 25 minutes:D

            1. And from another perspective yes we are responsible. But from that perspective such thing as responsibility does not exist;)
              So it’s better not mixing the two. Or we got spiritual robots:)

          2. Anette: “Of course one is responsible for one’s experiences.”

            Is that so?

            I think this is a fixed idea that needs to be inspected more closely. This is one of the hooks Hubbard used to control others.


      3. Me too Annette. I was sold on OT phenomena alone. I wasn’t struggling with any personal issues and I didn’t want anything quote handled unquote.

          1. The funny thing is that many of the non-supernatural abilities promised in Scientology (such as perfect recall of whatever you want for clears) regularly occur in mental athletes. Josh Foer in “Moonwalking With Einstein” outs the “Savant” Daniel Tammet who has made a career out of being a savant (complete with a documentary on his life).

            BUT …

            Foer shows that the more likely answer is that he is a mental athlete.

            He doesn’t come right out and say it, but he gives evidence that Tammet is no savant but that he just trained his brain. He cites Tammet’s earlier enrollment in the Memory Championships and being a one time memory trainer as proof.

            YouTube Tammet’s name to watch the documentary.

            In his book he tells of a man who has 10 years worth of books memorized WHO IS JUST A NORMAL GUY.

            And these mental athletes who can memorize a book in one reading get no auditing at all.

            If one wants mental abilities, fuck Scientology! Instead, become a mental athlete.

            While the first clear was unable to quote a page out of Dianetics while on stage, a mental athlete could actually have pulled it off.

      4. Anette: “Living under an authoritarian system where the church is everything and the individual is nothing?”

        But isn’t that inconsistent with Scientology Axiom # 1 and with the concept of the THETAN?

        Church is not a thetan. It is a “mechanical” system that seems to be controlling thetans.

        So what is happening here?


  4. Dan if some dude has enemies and needs such a huge effect to make them vanquish, he still has a long way to OT, anyway. But yes, why not. For me a happy life is not to compromise, and I want to be able to wave my magic wand and do stuff. Why not? If I wanted to relax and feel good, I would take yoga lessons.

  5. Geir
    Are there any issues left that you personally would have liked to get handled
    by scientology? If the answer is yes, can you name them?

    1. 1. I want to go exterior with full perception at will.
      2. I want to retain my full memory between lifetimes.
      3. I want to be Batman

      1. You just did a name / want. Before you obtain any goal you have to do a name/ want /get. It is that simple. Send me an email.

        1. oraclemysticism
          I don’t want to interfere…you have got the right not to answer. In my reality with what you are recommending you are still in the “territory” of the mind. It can get delusional that is you trick yourself into something which has no more reality that you “make up-create”. Also,
          this blog is an open “forum”. To get things cleared, if you think you get it right, share what you have. Truth has always been a safe way.

      2. Hehehe.. I dont know about the Batman but the first two is there. Full perception can be had now. Full memory of what? Who you were this life? Please tell….

            1. Yes, referring back to your comment which I liked….because one can never be anybody….that which has no “substance” cannot be, not even become anybody or anything…my reality….so I laughed at your precise question….sorry that I didn’t put “your name there Elizabeth”

    2. If that is what you want Geir, you better start meditating, and stop using your mind to try to go exterior. You have the whole past life memory in YOU ( not the mind), you just need to empty your mind to let it reveal itself.

      1. I will take the advice from the person who can go exterior, fly to my house, see what book I have at my beside and write it down here (or send me the answer by mail:

        1. Geir
          Right you are! I personally cannot do that – as I have never been so
          interested in as to, for example, meditate into that direction. However,
          I have met quite a few people, who have that ability as a by-product of meditation. They have that ability for their own enjoyment. When they feel like so. It’s nothing more than another experience – experience, that is. I’m sure lots of stuff can be found on the net too. The thing is real. Another thing is – which I heard but find it useful. Namely,
          “things don’t work for good reasons”. 1. so many things have been misused in the “sphere” of mind that one is “protected” until one is ready to confont it 2. the in-between area (and “higher levels”) have so huge energy in them, that the present body wouldn’t survive it. You
          probably know it from auditing. So, “protection”, that is. Also, in my experience so far, everything happens in its own time and anything! can happen any! time without the use of any method. Any. I like your 3 “wants”. Even, you can have “more”. Besides scio, the “way” is to go and meet that/those “enlightened ones” who can “help” you. As I found in my life, when I really wanted something, it appeared in the physical universe. So, one way to start it – ask yourself if you really want what you want! Also,the company of “free beings” (around you,
          that is to meet them and be with them for a while) is also advisable.
          That’s why there are “retreats”. Also, you can ask those auditors you trust – how they see this question. Sure, you thought about what I am saying now. Even more as I “know you”. So, action?

        2. Oh, THAT’S Easy. It’s this:

          “The Undefeated Mind: On the Science of Constructing an Indestructible Self” by Alex Lickerman MD

          No advice though.

          1. Oh, and the book under THAT one is “Moonwalking With Einstein” by Joshua Foer.

            Can’t help showing off ya know …

            1. I don’t understand you now but I like you, kata! (you know I can like
              without “understanding” – just love being that way many times!)

            2. I’m just replying to Geirs challenge to read the cover of the book in his house via exteriorization. He’ll validate I was right in a few minutes I’m sure!


              And the NEXT book in the stack is “Forks Over Knives.”

              The hits just keep coming!

        3. Proof is very dificult. Did you know that mr. Feynman was in fact able to “go exterior” at will? He called it hallucinating “at will”. He experimented with and was able to leave the tank, go outside and look around. Very interesting story, and I like very much his filosofy around it. Why don’t you try his method? Feynman is probably the person with the least insentives to lie about something like this.

          The problem is that the proof of any spirutal experience you can get is mostly that someone says something about someting. Then you have to trust here or him.

          If we have a spirit or thetan or sole or what ever, then I guess that our brain with our thoughts are in the way of recognizing it. Our thoughts and fealings are so lowd and noisy that there is no way we can remove our attention from it.
          If we practice, we can make our thoughts and fealings calm down so much, that we can leave them in the background, and gently connect with our true essens. From there we can go in to total absorption of our mind, and get liberated.

          Is stoping our thoughts possible? And is the long training worth the trouble? Well, again “if someone says so” might not be enough. But, search for “Ken Wilber Stops His Brain Waves” on youtube, or just go directly here:

          It is not a proof, but it is very insiring. And the only one who can show us something unusal.

          1. Hans DD
            Like it! The nonduality part is my experience too. If interested, google
            Adyashanti True Meditation 1-3. (in part 3 you will experience why it is “true” meditation). I used to do it for a while. Its “practice” spontaneously stopped….no need now….

  6. Nice! Thanks! If any other comes to mind, please put them here. Also, let’s ask Elizabeth who is a kind of “authority” by her thousands of hours of auditing if she has all these abilities.
    Questions: 1 and 2. Why do you think you don’t have those abilities? Also, why would you like to have them? What would be better if you had them?

      1. Elizabeth and Geir
        The above reads like: let’s ask Elizabeth ….if she has those abilities.
        The QUESTIONS were addressed to GEIR (sorry if it was misunderstandable, I see it that it could be as I didn’t put Geir’s name there)
        (btw if you read me, you know it’s true and shouldn’t have asked)

  7. Spirituality, also it’s embodiment (“here on Earth and at different realities”) starts where “the mind ends”. It’s not surprising, what you are writing about…

  8. With all due respect to able OT people, what happened to those states of Theta Clear and Cleared Theta Clear. A little not-is there?? Maybe not talk about it because the OT levels are confidential? Is it a taboo matter? In the final analysis, isn’t that the goal of Scientology? Or is it to fight psychiatry?

    1. And hey, in case you don’t like my low-toned, entheta comments (bot you Geir, I’m speaking of anyone who wouldn’t). How do you like to struggle for a few decades to reach somewhere that you are told that is not there in the end? Pretty theta huh? I’m feeling enthusiastic about it.

  9. 1. Continue to look at the fractal construct of our world.
    2. Continue to observe discreteness.
    3. Using 1. and 2. continue to pose off your questions against deeper understanding of Godel and Heisenberg.
    4. Using 1., 2., and 3., continue to be mindful of “what is a frame of reference.”
    5. Review “False Data Stripping” and then check over your beliefs in Scientology for inconsistencies between the frame of reference of the system of Scientology posed off against other systems such as the rest of the living sense of life.
    6. Spend a little time reviewing all your very good cognitions over these “ex-Scn” years. All the wonderful insights that you’ve shared with me and everyone.

    If your conundrum is anything like mine, you may find that there still exists stable data; fixed ideas left over from the system of Scientology. IMO those years; and that system has receded into the past and is gone. Toothpaste out of tube. Inconsistencies compared to the greater world roil. Let it go.

    It is my belief that we have a shot at being Batman. Superman? Not so much.

    Thank you for this heartfelt post. It is very honest. Never felt closer to you.

    1. Interesting post Chris. And your posts are always so well thought out.

      But the real question. The hard question. The question we MUST CONFRONT is …

      WHICH Batman?

      Adam West?
      The Original Batman from the 1930s Detective Comics?
      The Batman from “The Dark Knight Rises”?
      Michael Keaton?

      So many Batman valences! Which poses a question …

      Is this Universe actually a BATMAN SAMSARA?


      ANNOUNCER: “Stay tuned tomorrow. Same BAT time. Same BAT channel.”

      1. Thanks KG, I love reading your posts. Just when I think I am walking along the spiritual path smoothly, your posts are the rake tines-up only waiting for my foot to trigger the inevitable rake handle to the face! So much for my smoothness.

        But as to which Batman? I think Geir meant the Batman of our imagination, and when I posed Batman off against Superman, I was referring to the regular human guy who has money and toys just like Tony Stark of Ironman fame. These are people that people can become.

        Superman, not so much because Superman is different. He’s the OT who reads tomorrow’s stock market today and I don’t mean the smart fundamental stock broker; I mean the guy who reads tomorrow’s news today. Does anybody know this guy? The one who routinely performs mind blowing miracles for which there is no extant physics explanation.

  10. Geir I have a theory about this as I’ve seen the same thing. I think that people like yourself who had gains in Scientology and have done well in life, would have had the same result with almost any religion or philosophy you chose to practice. You were already capable. Some people chose to dance in the rain, make lemons from lemonade etc. Whatever the experience we examine it and learn from it. Doing so opens us up to learning and making positive changes through experiences.

    In a similar way, I think that Tom Cruise would be a fanatic whether he was a Scientologist or a Catholic. It’s in him to be hardcore in whatever he does, and to make others uncomfortable while doing so.

    In the way that Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz learned that she always had the power to get herself home, we each have the power to create our lot in life. For some, it just comes more naturally. As I think it is with you. I think if Batman knew you, he would want to be Geir. 😉

      1. Hell. Even SUPERMAN wishes he were Batman. Why? Because BM always kicks SM’s butt in the history of comics. Brain. Over. Brawn.

        1. My super-hero alter-ego is the Phil character on my blog.

          To him, inter-dimensional travel is a pain in the ass more than anything else.

        2. Oh, I am my own Superhero Phil on my blog. Phil is my imagined best self. Just a weirdly wise guy with some cool gadgets.

          1. Hehehe! Like you even more! If you knew how many “characters” I have already played! You invent some more? Or just pick some up
            like in the movies for a short time? Fun, that is! Not only on the blog!

          2. Right! Phil is someone we could be.

            Just Like Friedrich Nietzsche’s Ubermensch, it’s within the set of physics that we can grasp.

            But Siegal and Shuster’s Superman? Nope. Because as far as I can tell, it’s not really true that we can become anything we want to when we grow up.

  11. Maybe it´s as simple as this: In today´s “modern” and de-individualizing society a lot of people increasingly experience a lack of belonging. They don´t feel that the other one is listening let alone that they feel appreciated and accepted for who they are. It could be true that this group also has problems in getting ahead in life. So they mass around what could be described as a promise of acknowledgement, prosperity and succes. Someone seems to be listening. It gives them a sense of belonging. However the chances of structural and lasting improvement remain slim.

    Just a thought 🙂

  12. Dear Geir,

    First of all, a real why is to be found WITHIN Scientology itself. Because the Why is NOT God or anyone else OUTSIDE (Ref.: Data Series by LRH).

    Secondly, everything regarding the basic philosophy can be traced back to Ron himself. Of the possibilities you mention, the one which rings the most true TO ME is the PTSness. To me it’s quite obvious that Ron went PTS to a number of terminals without being able to spot it himself, which is part of the trait of being PTS. First of all his own case as written up and forced upon others (like OT III etc..,). Then Psychiatry who to Ron was the source of endless troubles… But this IS a “Why is God” a who OVER THERE which he could not handle, therefore a wrong why, didn’t open any doors for any handling.

    But my personal idea as that the entirety of Scientology is a masculine imbalance and dramatization of extreme masculine poles. In most auditing you are asked a question and supposed to THINK up an answer. This is a masculine activity and makes people more and more masculine till they reach a point of total control (not in the positive sense) and have suppressed and lost most contact to their own feelings. This is why I, with my friend Torben, worked on and developed BALANCING which brings your integrity parts back in balance by handling the suppression of the feminine side which the masculine always keeps down and in ‘control’ and in check with one or more Service. Fac’s. (Fixed ideas, Stuck opinions). Handling the upset/ARCbreak between them will make them go back in comm and in balance again and your integrity on the handled subject get’s de-polarized and extremes are no longer dramatized. You will then be able to FEEL what is right for you on your different life aspects, and THIS is what I see have been missing in Scientology and why the promoted results were not obtainable..Scientology became a masculine activity which is characterized by a rigid, controlling organization where feelings are unwanted and called HE & R… a cold and awful place where anyone with just a bit of his integrity still in balance will not thrive… This is where SURVIVAL apparently is the common denominator whereas a common denominator for free balanced beings would be THRIVING…

    1. Good points. I was asked just yesterday why Scientology sends to be the only religion attracting more men than women (the statistics are pretty clear on this).

      And yes, I am looking at an answer Within Scientology. There is something wrong IN there – something IN Scientology is the answer to my conundrum.

      1. Back in the day, there were lots of women in Scientology. Look at some old Source or Advance magazines, and you will see that many of the officers and Auditors of the Sea Org were women.

        Debbie Cook is/was a prime example.

        1. As to why it maybe attracting more men than women currently, if it is actually attracting anyone at all, I would suspect it’s the marketing slant and tone they are using. It markets itself about the way an MLM like Amway does. Look at Grant Cardone and his dutiful corporate wife! Ugh!

    2. Pe-er
      Like your post! Especially the masculine-feminine imbalance aspect, also what you write about control. With very little mind intervention I experience a feminine-masculine balance in my “beingness”. Also,
      a Free Flow of Life through my whole “system”. No, or very little control. LIFE flows without the “need” to control. No-mind, that is the key.
      Me not alone in saying that – it is all over the place.

  13. There once was a med student who was extremely gifted and smart and had a high emotional intelligence. He gave up being a doctor to became clear and then promoted the technology of the church.

    After that, things didn’t go so well. But he bounced back with a repackaged version of the tech and continued to spread the word.

    In a lecture after leaving the church, he once said that LRH told him that “He would have gone clear on anything.”

    Think about that.

    It wasn’t Scientology, it was JOHN MCMASTER who made himself the first clear and LRH even TOLD him that.

    And Geir…



    1. And it makes me wonder.

      “How many of the posters here would have ‘gone clear on anything?'”

      I don’t know, But me thinks, it’s either 80% or 20% using the 80/20 rule.

      And how do such “self-clearing” people inspire others not so able in the same religion?

      By accidentally convincing others by default that it was the RELIGION that produced the experience.

      And it was them all along, just waiting to emerge.

      Be. Free. Anyway.

      _/!\_ (gassho)

      1. To go/become CLEAR is a stupidity!! One cannot go/become THAT which one already is!!! One REALIZES this fact! (the “working for it” is the illusion)

        1. Then we can go with that definition for the sake of the discussion as well. For me, zazen is enlightenment and being reality is the fruit of zazen.

          But I think any clearing/enlightenment experience, is more PERSON dependent than SYSTEM dependent than we give credence to IMHO.


        2. MT not every one who entered scientology had a brick fallen on their head and gotten KEYED OUT and suddenly have become know it all as you are.
          Most of us had to work, confront the facts which are the assumptions thought etc.. clear them away before we could understand what IS. Your statemant is simply spoken out of IGNORANCE and ignorance goes hand in hand with the brick bit.
          Keyed out condition do not bring knowledge, of what and why is happening.

          1. Elizabeth
            I wonder how long you are able to “ride the horse” of me being in a keyed-out state! I got your nice warm flow anyway! Still, every riding experience has an end and eventually the rider gets off the horse!
            Also, “know it all as you are” has little to do with me. Also, the what and why can be there when I ask the question – but I am not interested to “know” everything as you are! Also, for YEARS I worked hard…very hard! Still do, when I feel that it is the proper action! Thought to mention this – just ride on! I respect you are all-knowing,
            you have worked for it! Me – happy as I am!

            1. do float bout sweetness and light… that is your horse,

  14. I completely agree with your observation. I’ve also seen those kind of numbers with SCN employees – most of them are worthless.
    My takes on it is that SCN helps with some of the programming errors humans are subject to, while laying in a whole other series of misconceptions. It is very hard to get the first benefit and avoid the second. People use SCN to think with instead of figuring things out. That sentence is a deliberate example.
    It is very hard indeed to figure something out rather than to just accept what your body and programming tell you. So when people get one aberration understood with a cognition, they don’t replace it with a consciously bought out inclusion, they just buy the cognition and they are back where they started.
    It may be possible to really be OT – but in or,der to be such you need to really truly understand how things work, which means among other things having a better understanding of quantum mechanics than anyone now does. And in many other fields of knowledge too.
    There are no short cuts.

      1. Geir, you agreed with Roland that “It may be possible to really be OT – but in order to be such you need to really truly understand how things work, which means among other things having a better understanding of quantum mechanics than anyone now does.”

        That is the same thing 2ndxmr was saying and it indicated to me as well, which is why I asked you to write a blog post so we could all discuss QM. You implied you would but “first” you wanted to write this one.

        Hopefully this additional thread about Scientology will finally get the subject “out of our systems” enough that when you write the QM post we can start to progress and move forward to a higher understanding of “OT” (or whatever word anybody wants to use) and thus move in that direction. Probably Roland and others like him would be interested and join in too.

        1. Marildi: “”when you write the QM post we can start to progress and move forward to a higher understanding of “OT”

          Why do you have to depend on Geir for that? How about looking for yourself?


          1. I guess for the same reason that you are here wanting people to discuss the things you wish to discuss.

  15. Geir,

    You are an amazing person and your gains does not have so much to do with scientology. Your gains is due to the good cards you where dealt when you where created (by the sperm and the egg), and some “good” conditions during your first 10 years of life.

    You would have had gains in any personal development system you would have choosen.

    I suspect you would have had even greater development, if you had chosen a different combination of development techniques.

    So what could you do now, to really take of?
    I suggest you take a look at Ken Wilbers “integral life practice”. Try it out, and if you have greate progress with that, then you know it was not Scientology, but you.

    If you don’t try out something new: WE’LL NEVER KNOW!!!

    PS: if you don’t like Ken Wilber, I can suggest something else. But if there are 100 different good schooles out there there are 10 000 bad. So look out.

    1. Hans D. D.
      Hehe….I like your “…..due to the good cards sentence.” Good karma? Good choice of family? Good choice of energy-make-up-match? (my “choice” was love….all through my life almost everybody tried to dissuade me from it….I even entered scio because of it, left it because of it). Could be that one “reason” we are here is to 100% confront what we are….

  16. Geir, the lousy scene you are describing is because we live in an anomaly:

    1) the church, aka the organisational channel supposed to keep thetans moving on has been boobytrapped.

    2) Scientologists, meaning Independent ones, leave far from each other, do not create 3rd dynamics like ORGANISATIONS any more, much less is the tech that they deliver so strong or consistent like it used to be in the Orgs.

    We all know what this means. Ron created the Intensives for that purpose. So that a thetan can be processed enough, more than the physical universe could get on him.

    3) The Independent Field does not recognise Admin Tech as a tech, thus we have just small islands of the tech around the globe. I am frequenting Marty’s site and I can assure you each time I write about Admin I can feel the ridges back here in Greece. But Ron didn’t create Scientology to be used individually.

    Allow me then for some estimations.

    Scientologists are not super power beings who can go out and glow things right, yet. And maybe they were never meant to be in the first place. What Scientology was meant to be was a System to help each other. The System now is broken down, we can all see this.

    What I want to say in simple words is that the Admin Tech that Ron developed was not for nothing. It was developed for the purpose to create strong 3rd Dynamics. When you don’t have such strong 3rd Dynamics, Life (the Physical Universe) gets on you faster than any thetan can respond too. It’s similar to an atomic bomb, all particles go to many directions at once and the thetan is not able to erase anything. Thus Life gets Him/Her.

    I think the solution is to Start creating 3rd Dynamics in the physical universe. Scientologists are not stellar people maybe in terms of courage and vision like LRH was. He never intended to help only such people. They are middle men who feel like odd balls in this world. What can an odd ball do alone?

    I think the answer to your conundrum is that Scientologists do need (still) directions to go. They are not yet at the level to operate fully and solely on themselves. They learned to operate in Policy and now they get out and feel lost.

    My biggest grief is that they don’t see that LRH devoted his life to give all he could to create a workable system. You cannot have a workable system with 30% of Scientology which is the Tech. There is Admin, there is Ethics and even Mission Tech.

    Scientologists are not necessarily a higher level of a being. They are definitely more sane people. But that does not make them super beings who would be able to function ALL ALONE in a world which IS GOING MAD, more and more everyday.

    The 3rd dynamic, Admin Tech is a big missing point in the Independence scene. We are islands of knowledge which becomes sterile because it cannot be communicated and shared fast enough with others to catch up with the dwindling Spiral of the planet and the universe. That’s all what Admin was about. If DM managed to make Admin so unpalatable to everyone it is not Ron’s fault. He did what he did. It’s a matter of speed, Geir. The PC’s (Group’s in this case) COMM LAG is too big because there is not enough THETA to deal with this ANOMALY we are living in.

    1. Theosismanides, you made quite a few excellent points, including what I got as the central one, the one pertaining to 3rd dynamic tech. Here’s one specific point you made about it:

      “The 3rd dynamic, Admin Tech is a big missing point in the Independence scene. We are islands of knowledge which becomes sterile because it cannot be communicated and shared fast enough with others to catch up with the dwindling Spiral of the planet and the universe. That’s all what Admin was about.”

      I know that you follow Marty’s blog so you may have already seen a recent post from “CR” who had a viewpoint about admin tech that I imagine most people have never considered:

      Start of quote:

      LRH concluded at one point (don’t have the issue – Green Vol 6 ?) that only orgs would support Scientology, and that Scientology would not make it without orgs. (That’s where he explains why he’ll stop doing congresses); he meant Scientology orgs, built up on the 21 dept scheme, with all the processes researched, tested and formulated in policies. And most splinter operations hit the same wall: how do we set up a workable and viable organization? With all the different viewpoints colliding as you may imagine.

      My evaluation is that current orgs – local orgs, with all the wrong directions they get, apply probably 50 times more scientology processes (of all kind) than “honest splinter groups”. I believe that yes, the policies are of extreme value, yes honesty and competence of staff is important, but I am quite “mystical” – although evaluated and rather obvious – about it: the actual Church incorporates LRH postulate in a way that cannot be duplicated in a separate structure, and more, he built it up brick by brick, year after year with his constant interest and powerful postulate – that situation will not be duplicated either. I believe that if you take the 50 best technical personnel and the 50 best management personnel on the planet, and they want to create a new separate Church, they won’t make it. I don’t take much risk saying that. They might create one org that operates – not sure, but not 200 orgs and 250 missions.

      To make it short, the strategy I would envision for what we try to solve is not to “evaluate scientology”, or “evaluate Ron Hubbard”, but to simply have Scientology applied in a standard environment – an org, where the admin scale would be in. Not that difficult actually, remember the fall of the Berlin wall. Maintaining a lie requires a lot of continuous force, and for a big lie, an extenuating effort

      1. Marildi, thanks, yes I do frequent Marty’s blog. I read CR’s post here, Thanks for reposting it.

        I won’t go into a lot of technicalities but I think finally CR does see that an Org is a solution to the problem.

        The only problem here I see is that Indies are not interested in Admin much less skilled in it. By necessity Ron had to become an expert in Admin and see to it that Orgs survived. He did that as CR says brick by brick over the years. This is a lot of work and a lot of experience that one person got and he managed the whole network.

        In the Indies field there is no focal point, everything is up in the air and depends on the initiative of some. This is not bad as long as it does help others to have similar gains. And that is the difference between Ron and others. Ron did want others to have similar gains this is why he put Admin tech there.

        And one other thing. I am impressed by some people who don’t see how Scientology can be beneficial to everybody. The general term Scientology doesn’t mean anything if you don’t analyse it. Isn’t Study Tech beneficial to children and adults. Isn’t ARC beneficial, too. Wouldn’t an ARC X session be beneficial to someone, anyone? What about the Comm Course, or the knowledge of the existence of a Reactive Mind? Isn’t the Reactive Mind real or have we done so far as to start ignoring some of the basics?

        1. Application of Scientology does require a massive organization, and that is a drawback. One cannot have a grass roots movement with that kind of requirement.


        2. Theo, thanks for your reply. I get that CR may be a fellow Greek as he signed his post “Ioda” (which I believe is one spelling of the Greek letter) and you may know him personally and thus have data that I don’t. What I’m getting at is that it seems you have a different understanding of his viewpoint on Orgs than what I got from his post. You said:

          “I won’t go into a lot of technicalities but I think finally CR does see that an Org is a solution to the problem.

          What I understood was that CR isn’t just advocating “an Org” or “Orgs” but that he believes the existing Org structure of the CoS – i.e. the structure that LRH himself built “brick by brick” – should be redeemed, as per the second paragraph I quoted in the excerpt above and also according to this part of his post (which I hadn’t quoted):

          “The Church can redeem in a very short time, not necessarily with huge efforts. I believe we must change the Church from the internal side – even if piloted from outside.”

          Assuming that LRH was right about an org system being necessary to the growth of Scn, I myself have wondered if it would be possible with new leadership to retain the existing Church structure with all its dedicated staff and current buildings (not the “Ideal Org” buildings) and turn it back to what the org system should have been before it took some very bad turns. But if that isn’t possible, then it may be that a new Church could be built following LRH’s blueprint laid out in policy.

          However, CR seems to think others wouldn’t have the necessary postulate power and energy that LRH had and thus wouldn’t be able to accomplish it. Have I read him wrong?

          1. Marildi – I like what you say bout change coming to the organization. Responsibility is of who’s to make those changes? And what are you, we doing to help that come about?

            1. So far the main thing I’m doing is taking part in the multiple-viewpoint system of blogs. What are you doing?

            2. Marildi- “What are you doing?”

              #1. I’m speaking out about the dangerous conditions one can be confronted with and the lies that are told in the Co$.
              #2. I’m supporting those writers who risk law suits and dirty tricks to exposing how the church is now, changed and the whys.
              #3. Educating the public so “the buyer beware” has knowledge on what they may find in the current church under the current leader Miscaviage’s rule.
              This is accomplished by commenting on many news articles and blogs. Along with further educating myself and others I meet on the subject.

              The government cannot at this time help Scientology change, so it has to be other ways, by the people who care. Losing income, lawsuits, even ridicule, or with enough ex’s leaving and speaking out, so then the members may rebel and make the needed changes. I’d never go back in it because of my age, or as it is, but I still would like to see it survive as a helpful free philosophy. I will leave for others to take it up and I will not come back, knowing I did my best to help. Peace!

            3. Got it, deE. We are basically doing the same thing in terms of helping, except that you are contributing to educating the public about the CoS, and I am attempting to help clarify the difference between the CoS and the subject of Scientology itself. That clarification is needed for not just the general public but Scientologists (both former and current) as well.

            4. Marildi, “doing the same thing in terms of helping”. I truly wish you speed to provide the power and authority necessary to accomplish or put this clarity of difference in effect. 🙂

            5. Thank you deE! Nice to have your postulate. I wish you the very best with your purposes too, 🙂

            6. Marildi, It is much better to state a truth or principle without attaching the label of Scientology to it. A truth or principle should be able to stand on its own.


            7. Marildi….
              +1 right you are.
              If Buddha was not born as a Price would have born into the lowest rank like the potty cleaner the ”untouchable” [the rank of which India is so proud of] the in the Royal House hold, but he still would have had the same wisdom-knowledge do you think he still would have been noticed than , listened to and adored revered and quoted millions of times up to theses day?
              It is fame and money which is noticed adored respected and was the same back than thousands of years and was not different as now in this society: even in this blog that is very noticeable obvious in their comments how some people bow down to money..

      2. Marildi, Tech that requires a complex administrative system before it can be applied is in a handicapped state.

        Such a “tech” cannot start a grass-roots movement. KHTK can.


  17. We live in the Physical Universe for which there is a more proper term in the East: Samsara.
    If you look it up in Wikipedia it says: Saṃsāra means “she flows into herself,” … to perpetually wander, to pass through states of existence.
    To perpetually wander, to pass through states of existence. So there is no uniform miracle cure for minds which are on different spiritual levels. Especially, if we try to make our method (in this case Scientology) an all solving agent. People are on different levels of spiritual states. And you just can’t enforce methods to them because you will not get universal results.
    But there is great potential in Scientology if applied intelligently without a sectarian or authoritan way. But this application is again blocked by the founder of the subject itself (who builded up the administrative system in a way to form an authoritan, cold war type, suppressive, dinosaurus organization) and probably by the nature of Samsara which is dualism.
    But a more intelligent application and reformation of the subject together with an openness to other, authentic spiritual ways would mean a progress towards Escape from the endless sufferings of Samsara.
    So I think the answer is that Scientology is not a workable method for the masses. It is workable for many. Like a coat which suits your size. But it is foolish to put the same cote to a person who is not matching in size with the coat. That’s the simple problem with Scientology. It is imperfect and far from workable for a large scale but it is presented/marketed as that. And Scientology is in the form of a fascist dinosaur. It dictates and can’t change. That’s the problem. And the end of Scientology.
    It is obvious you should change it to get workable results. But it is encoded in the system that if you want to change anything in it you are the enemy of it, so you get destroyed first by the system.

    1. I don’t mean to play smartass, but according to the SCN axioms we dont live in anything –a static has no position is space and time and so on. And if we did live in something, that would be our own universe which then in turn would connect or not with other universes, including a MEST universe.

      SCN was meant to get people out of the obsessive agreement with the MEST universe. That’s why I mention it, and not to correct you. Cheers.

      1. Spyros, I agree with you and I think (not to play smartass):
        Basically it depends on the viewpoint. From the viewpoint that we are static there are no other universes as all universe is our universe… or all universe is we are. Universes are the experiences of the static which is looking at itself. From the viewpoint of the static there is no obsessiveness either…
        But we experience life as qualities including obsessiveness as well and as if we would live in the MEST universe. I prefer the expression Samsara over Physical Universe or MEST as it means more. When I was a Scientologist I liked the word MEST very much as a precise term. But it is not precise at all. It is a rip off.
        The main part of the MEST is not physical stuff but suffering… That is the essence of Samsara. Transmigration and suffering. Buddha told about suffering already but someone squirreled what “he” told:)
        However these things are very hard to transmit. There are more exact explanations about what we are in recently by others than LRH. Although they are playing on the intellectual and business side of the question.
        You can explain heat to a child but he or she will not grasp it until he feels it by himself. So explanation and understanding is not enough. That’s why auditing would be god. But as far as I see the problem with auditing that it takes out the unnecessary rubbish but there is someone who does not know how to use the clean room and puts other kind of unnecessary or even dirty stuff in there. Scientology training is not enough as that trains only technical minds:) The spirit is kind of “organic”. You do not get that from Scientology and that is one of the big trouble with it. There is trouble with the “spiritual frequency” of Scientology. Someone says people are not like the buttons of the piano. Not black and white. But Scientology sees the world like that…

    2. “But it is encoded in the system that if you want to change anything in it you are the enemy of it, so you get destroyed first by the system.”
      And there you have it, well stated.

    3. godd
      “People are on different levels of spiritual states. And you just can’t enforce methods to them because you will not get universal results.”

      Only auditing method is the same.. but the results never will be.

      The point of auditing is not to attain equality, the point is to Enhance individual ability. The uniformity is in the Human-robot behaviour
      The free spiritual is not a robot, which fallows rules and regulation-fashion and worships gods-humans do that. Auditing erases those walls which keeps one within those boundaries and than one has choices.

  18. I’ve just watched this video of Marty:
    and I’ve got the impression that on one side you see these people that they are doing better but what I see is ignorance in a spiritual way and that is the worst part of Scientology. You get people with less mental mass but they are not smarter spiritually. Their ego is bigger, so in fact with Scientology you root these people the more into Samsara and create more problems with this kind of application to spiritual matters.

  19. An additional thought – in my business I also go out of my way to avoid aggressively Christian companies. My experience is that the degree of business ethics is inversely proportional to the degree of religiosity. Something about being religious seems to encourage acceptance of lying and treachery, no doubt on the principle of the greatest good…

  20. I have been facing this same conundrum and have noticed some things that may be of interest to this discussion. I am sorry this is long. I’ve tried to cut it down but then it doesn’t make any sense.

    The descriptions of OT abilities to do with self-directed, deliberate, non-physical manipulation / perception of physical events or objects were not derived from “on-the-ground” observations. They were culled from session data — past memories of such abilities. The bulk of these memories were reported on many cases, such that they came to be referred to as the “magic universe.” The characteristic of that “universe” was a certain fluidity of time and duration. That “universe” had no “when” or “where” as understood in this time-space continuum. Elizabeth routinely reports such activity and is given little recognition when she reports it. She also reports that it has nothing to do with this “universe.” She reports little to no interest at all in this “universe” at all.

    O.T. is a misnomer for such activity, especially in this time-space continuum. A more appropriate title would be “Master of Appearances” or “Spell Binder.” In Western tradition, this is a wizard, a shaman, and finally degraded to an evil witch.

    Only remnants remain in the English language of this tradition, found in the word KNOW. The Anglo-Saxons used two distinct words for this, witan (see wit) and cnawan. Witan has been thoroughly degraded to “wit,” but it originally referred to “vision” or “seeing” i.e. wizard, likely from the High German wizzi “knowledge, understanding, intelligence, mind. There are countless eye-witness reports of the activities of wizards in Western tradition and even more accounts in Eastern traditions. Our “myths” and “lore” abound with such accounts. Consider the legend of Merlin, and the implications of the Merlin legends:

    It is thought to be a legend. It probably wasn’t. But it flies into the teeth of possession and ownership, greatly feared in any social construct that depends on possession and ownership or “binding,” as so accurately described by Kozybski:

    In Scn 8-8008, LRH described Scientology as an “egress terminal” and the function of auditing as the reduction of the apparent infinity of the physical universe to zero and the raising of the individual universe to infinity.

    But the fact is that most people are not interested in that at all. What they want is to continue to thoroughly BE their current identity (body, mind, soul aggregate) and from that base extend their realm of power, which is really a a desire to extend their BINDING ability. At the same time, and in complete discord with this desire, they want to preserve and enhance BINDING at a co-operative level.

    A wizard does not co-operate, except perhaps with other wizards. A wizard is a spell-binder. Spell means to talk or to tell, to say aloud or recite, to work in place of another or to take the place of another. It is related to “spiel,” a German word for play or game, For this to be on some kind of parity, one must not only be willing to spell bind, but to be spell bound. How do you think we got here in the first place?

    Egress from this spell bound world, to break the spell appears to be the option LRH chose. The alternative is to spell bind some or all other participants.

    Can it be done? Yes. It has already been done. You are living in it. Can you break the spell? Yes. It has already been done. Many times. But the question is, having broken the spell, is the new spell binder really willing to cast their spell on all others? If yes, then you have attained the state best described as “Master of Spells.” If no, you will choose a time-space continuum more to your liking and spell-bind to your heart’s content with or without others.

    1. Geir, I just made a comment with links in it and forgot that it will go to the moderation queue. Would you please mod my comment?

    2. So it indicates that Scientology is “marketed” in a wrong way. And I deliberately use the word marketed as a spiritual way should not be marketed. If a person is not ready than he or she will get into the condition you described, “to continue to thoroughly BE their current identity”. But as I myself experienced that is exactly what Scientology does anyway. Ron said “You will never be—never—be the same as you were. You can’t be the same as you were, because you are now an experienced you. Oh yes, you can be as strong as you ever were, but I don’t think you could ever be that stupid again.” in The Free Being. But wait. Now, you are experienced. But you were not experienced before… seemingly he is speaking about the state of static but he gives it a twist. How could there be an experience where there is no time and space? And how could you be different? If you are a static, you embrace all, so there is meaningless to speak about experience and stupidity and all that kind of stuff… Of course, you get people who want to continue as they are just stronger, etc… They just want to get the false state what Hubbard promised to them.
      So there is a potentially good aplication side and I think of auditing with a seemingly bad education and training side.

      1. Yes, there is some truth to your post. One might want to be a better cook or whatever. But a philandering Don Juan may want to be a more successful Don Juan, a cannibal may want to be a more successful cannibal, a marketing scammer may just want to be more successful at that. If a person wanted to take a lot of LSD trips or smoke tons of pot or get drunk a lot, why, Scientology, by having the Purif available, makes it possible to live like that and escape many of the long-term harmful effects indefinitely because he can clear his body of the toxic effects periodically and rebuild his health to some extent.

        Hey look, Scientology has enabled DM to be a more successful
        brainwasher (modifier of behavior) and fascist cult leader.

        1. Valkov: Hey look, Scientology has enabled DM to be a more successful brainwasher (modifier of behavior) and fascist cult leader.

          Chris: Actually, that was Exec Strata, Watchdog Committee, the Case Supervisor International, Mr. L. Ron Hubbard, and each and every contributing Scientologist who enabled him.

          1. No, I was referring to the actual LRH materials he has had over 30 years to read/listen to, and figure out how to apply towards accomplishing his own ends.

            That he was not checked in this enterprise may well be the responsibility of all those you mentioned, but I was referring to the actual materials he has had all that time to study and apply to achieve
            his goals.

            Are we on the same page now?

    3. Maria you are grand… Thank you for taking the time writting the above post. I could write books about the Magnificence of the Universe.. but books are not needed since who lives within dont have need to read such since they live -experience that magnificence.
      Grand Wizard Wo-y

    4. Maria- Thanks so much for this and the links since it reminded me of some basics, shall I say. My mate was an OT7 Merlin, a most welcome teacher and a joy in my life. We will continue while here and beyond when we merge.

    5. Maria…”having broken the spell, is the new spell binder really willing to cast their spell on all others?”
      the game will not be repeated… keep it in mind the spellbinder get cut by the same spell. A Wizard has learned .

    6. This is really well laid out and comprehensive as I’ve come to expect from your posts.

      I like the word iteration. In a single word and entire mechanic of creation can be implied. Depending on the order of magnitude, it allows for small to great universes to be built — in any direction; in any time; and in any place.

      Each of us spell binds and is spell bound, you’ve made that easy to see. Spell binding is also easy to translate to chemistry, to physics, and to iteration.

    7. Maria, there is probably an “actual physical” dimension, and then there is a “mental physical” dimension. I believe that the “mental physical” dimension is one’s view of the “physical” dimension. In other words,

      “mental physical” = “actual physical” filtered through one’s basic viewpoint (self).

      The definition applies whether one is awake or in meditation. So what we view of the physical universe in our actual waking hours is still the “mental universe”. This may be the same universe which we see in meditation if we are still using “self” as the viewpoint.

      When “self” as a viewpoint is taken out of the equation, the whole perception changes. The unfiltered physical dimension is something else. Not many people are aware of that.



  21. I read something very interesting the other day from another spiritual tradition. It said that having spiritual realizations was EASY. You could do it continually and never get anywhere.

    The hard part, and the most important part, is to put those spiritual realizations into PRACTICE.

    Scientology was always about the “cog”. The whole auditing side of the Bridge, straight up to OT, is nothing but about having “cogs”. You attest to whole OT levels based on “cog” alone.

    The problem is, you can easily fool yourself. For some people, a good feeling that something “indicates” is all they need to know they have cogged the truth. Feelings really have nothing to do with the truth. Often, very bad feelings accompany the realization of the truth. Just ask anyone who has “cognited” that their wife is cheating on them. The whole lovey-dovey world crashes down on them when they “cognite” on this truth.

    Learning the truth about Scientology is very similar to this in many ways. You can’t avoid the bad feelings, unfortunately, when you are seeking to live with the truth.

    And putting that truth into practice is even harder.

    The rubber never met the road in Scientology. Everyone just had “cogs” and “theta feelings” when something “indicated”.

    It’s not good enough. We see the results of this in Scientology today all around us.

    I am certainly not a person who is claiming to have put everything I have cogged on into practice. But I do know that the fatal flaw in my old spiritual path, Scientology, died because it stopped too soon in this regard, or was never interested in the first place.


    1. Al, I agree that that is what happened. But, I believe it is the result of the de-emphasis of theTraining side of the Bridge, and the dropping of the “original” OT levels.

      In the 1960s and 1970s, only Auditors were “Scientologists”. Then in the grand American tradition of “public education”, anyone could be a Scientologist without really DOING anything for the designation. “Scientology” was transformed into a “religion for the masses”.

      Remember what the original courses were called? Hubbard APPRENTICE Scientologist. Hubbard QUALIFIED Scientologist. And “Qualified” is a LIMITING designation. It means “qualified” up to a certain point and no further. But definitely “qualified” up to that point.
      One had to learn to DO,before one could be considered a “Scientologist”.

      And back then, many people who had completed even those 2 courses did not consider themselves to be “Scientologists”. I didn’t. It was a serious commitment, like actually converting to be a Christian or whatever. One needed to be willing to “walk the walk”, and I felt one needed to have a real understanding of the commitment, which was to be an Auditor.
      All of that has long since gone by the wayside. By the time Geir got into it, 1984, it was already going…. going…… going. 1984 was the
      year the IAS was launched, after all. And the “glutz PR” push was

      Sure,there were some “good reasons” for it. The fight for recognition of Scientology’s basically religious nature, the tax exemption problems etc.

      But by that time the downward spiral was already happening and that was the reason for the PR push to make Scientology seem to be “everywhere” It was a case of fighting overwhelm with overwhelm.

      Thus the auditing side of the Bridge came to be emphasized and the training side was neglected. And now, all those people who became “members of the religion of Scientology” are just that, but they are not Scientologists because most of them never learned to audit others.

      1. Although this is a very good point, auditors seem to be just as likely to be screwed up and so forth as non-auditors. I’ve found trained auditors and c/s’s to be no more likely to be good employees than non-trained people.
        Geir’s question still stands.

        1. Why would any trained auditors or C/Ses want to be employees anyway? That seems like an outpoint right there. How many people are not cut out to be “good employees”.

          Would Geir, or you, for that matter, be a “good employee”? Why is Geir being an employer, rather than an employee? Maybe he needs more Scientology to make him a “better employee”? hardy har har. 🙂

          1. And as far as Scientologists being poor employees, I would conjecture that it has to do with BPC for those who are not trained and processed, and possibly with those who are, also. The higher one’s processing and training level is, the more one might tend to desire a greater freedom and self-determinism than most jobs afford. Some one who has developed the ability to run may not be very interested in plodding along on the chain gang and kissing the bosses’ ass.

          2. By Good Employee I mean someone who would honestly work for the betterment of the group, doing what he was able to in whatever sphere he was competent in, and generally act in a constructive and straightforward way. Instead what I saw all too often was people justifying all sorts of poor performance, and not being willing to do what it takes to get the job done, in the way that ordinary people are. Combined with a general lack of honesty, I would have to say.
            And the reason auditors and c/ses need jobs is because it is almost impossible to make a living auditing and c/sing. How many people are currently doing that full time? A vanishingly small proportion of all those who were trained.

            1. OK, I get you, but in my experience, I think you are describing any average group of human employees who are non-Scientologists. Most people I know are motivated by 1st dynamic considerations; they work because they have to pay bills to survive.

              If Auditors aren’t auditing, isn’t that because they have been suppressed from doing so outside the CoS? Now that the CoS monopoly is being broken, isn’t it an Auditor’s job to bring himself out of Non-E? Or hook up with someone who is a better promoter than he is himself?

              Back in the 1970s, Field Auditors created their own business. But “entrepreneurs” will likely never be but a small percentage of any population. It’s one of those “many are called, few are chosen” kind of things. Being self-employed is not an easy row to hoe.

            2. Valkov: “But “entrepreneurs” will likely never be but a small percentage of any population. It’s one of those “many are called, few are chosen” kind of things. Being self-employed is not an easy row to hoe.”

              Is that an excuse for why trained auditors are not setting up their own field practice? I think it needs a closer looking.


      2. Yes, I saw that too. Somewhere in ’79 is when I decided to help the 3rd dynamic only and disregard other dynamics. After leaving in ’84 not being aware of all the changes since I had been out of touch on a mission, saw some changes I didn’t think right. After 25 years being away, was then, in ’10, a weak time, agreed to get involved again. Took me only a year to realize that it was a completely different place. As you put it.

      3. Valkov, then I am a Scientologist in the old tradition. I think for myself and I can observe inconsistencies in Hubbard’s research. I don’t bow down to the “source” called Hubbard and his KSW.

        Scientology can be greatly improved. You’ll see that in KHTK.


  22. Al
    Realized means REALIZED! In practice already ! Being/knowing/doing (no thinking involved) without “anybody” there. Cognition is mind stuff but can be that big that it results as “living it” stuff. That was my experience. Realization is full “living it” stuff!

  23. I´ve had many personal gains with Scientology, but they do not translate to the material world in a predictable way.

    To me it seems like no one has been able to decipher the exact relationship between our personal universes and the material world.

    I would like to be able to contribute with the evolution of life, and in the present moment what I´m doing is looking at everything in a positive way, with admiration and love, doing small things which seem to help increase harmony with my environment. So far it is making me feel more in harmony with myself, and my personal conflicts, worries and weakness become less important.

    Maybe the solution lies not in finding the answers to life, the universe and everything, mabe there is no fixed solution, maybe it can´t be found in the field of knowledge, maybe I´ve been fighting my war on the wrong field. Knowledge and certainty belong in a static state and life tends to change and evolve, it dies when it is not moving.

    Maybe the right field would be the continnuous creation of new solutions, no matter how small they might seem, and to keep evolving.

    Maybe there is no fixed relationship between our universes and the material world, at each moment it is what we make it be.

    1. Life provides another dimension to knowledge. Knowledge is spheres within spheres within spheres. None of those spheres are static, not even the one at the core.

      Scientology Axiom #1 incorrectly alludes to an absolute static that is not there.


  24. Geir, you agreed heartily with Natalie’s post where she said “I think that people like yourself who had gains in Scientology and have done well in life, would have had the same result with almost any religion or philosophy you chose to practice.”

    You have expressed that same consideration before too, as well as others that should have more than answered any enigma for you or conundrum in not being able to reconcile #1 and #2 in the OP.

    A possible answer I see as to why you have not accepted your own conclusions and ended cycle on this conundrum is that you have a knowingness about Scientology that is senior to all apparent physical universe evidence to the contrary as well as your own personal experience.

    1. Marildi: A possible answer I see as to why you have not accepted your own conclusions and ended cycle on this conundrum is that you have a knowingness about Scientology that is senior to all apparent physical universe evidence to the contrary as well as your own personal experience

      Chris: And another differing opinion could be that it is this exact type of false and misleading data which anchors us unknowingly to the past and holds our more level understanding away from us. The implications of the data in this post is the reason for my posting about and recommending false data stripping.

      1. Your suggestion to Geir that he get false data stripping was a good one since it seems that in this area his “wits simply don’t function” (quoting from the FDS Bulletin).

        Of course, you yourself assume that if the false data got stripped off it would result in him coming to a negative conclusion about Scientology because you believe the false data lies in Scn itself.

        I, on the other hand would expect him to become much more positive because I believe the false data is not within Scn itself but is contained in all the false data ABOUT Scn.

        The suggestion of a knowingness that I wrote about in my post isn’t different in essence from false data stripping in that FDS’ing leads in the direction of knowingness but is a longer process and often comes off only in gradients.

        I was giving Geir credit for having the potential capability to go straight to knowingness. However, if that isn’t workable then not only FDS’ing but word clearing, possibly even crashing MU finding, would be in order.

        Note that FDS’ing and word clearing can’t be legitimately criticized as leading toward some particular result. The simplicity of it is that FDS’ing and word clearing are done when someone doesn’t seem to be able to think and/or act in an area, and whatever the false data or MU’s are would be what comes up.

        1. Maybe our conflict on the subject of Scientology pivots on whether the result is good or bad; positive or negative. Me? I don’t care about that. Making Scientology “win” or “lose” is not the game I am playing. My own game is simply the leveling the inconsistencies in my life as I see them with the purpose of living life with greater humor, harmony, and heart.

          1. Chris, the game you are describing as your own is a game that I believe true Scientology enormously helps people play. You apparently don’t agree that there even is such a thing as true or core Scientology, or if you do you don’t agree that it helps play a better game – and THIS is what our conflict pivots on.

            Yes, part of my own game is helping Scn “win” because I consider that this will help everyone play a better game.

          2. What makes either of you think you have a conflict on the subject of Scientology? I have lost track, I wonder if y’all haven’t also lost track?

            To me it sounds like a game of Irresistable Force meets Immovable Object, and the nominal topic (Scientology) is incidental.

            1. Val, I thought our last two posts with each of us stating what game we are playing said it pretty clearly. What word didn’t you understand? 😉

            2. @Valkov, I should have written that I have been changing — iterating away from Marildi’s apparently immovable object. Time will tell.

    2. Marildi; This OP seems to have ticked you off. You asked for a chewy OP. That you got 😉

      I am glad I posted this – there are plenty of interesting and valuable opinions here. I find it helpful.

        1. It wasn’t an attack or am attempt to discredit you. It seemed to me you was somewhat annoyed, that’s all.

          1. Okay, thanks for that. 🙂 But why did it seem like I was ticked off? I was sincerely trying to communicate to you something I observed, and if you interpret it as just my being ticked off then it doesn’t seem that you are willing to accept it for what it says. I know it’s quite an evaluation I made but I happen to think you are one who can handle such. In fact, I thought you were basically asking for straightforward responses.

    3. Marildi:”A possible answer I see as to why you have not accepted your own conclusions and ended cycle on this conundrum is that you have a knowingness about Scientology that is senior to all apparent physical universe evidence to the contrary as well as your own personal experience.”

      That is an arbitrary assumption.


  25. Over at Rathbun’s place, Mosey is shining with win from her auditing on video.

    She is beeming with meaning – rich, sexy meaning and purpose and joy.

    And who doesn’t want THAT?

    But EXPERIENCE, MEANING and ABILITY are NOT the same. And a person can experience life-changing meaning while having other areas of life totally suck rotten eggs and be in complete and utter fail.

    IMHO much of the problem you discuss above Geir ties to the MEANING verses ABILITY issue and THE ABILITY TO TURN MEANING INTO BETTER ABILITIES like what Alanzo is addressing.

    Now for the point …

    Scientology processing allows people to create their own personal mythology.

    No other religion I know of does this in this way (even though it is RIFE with mind control in the original technology). Elizabeth Hamre’s stories are amazing. I know she has a deep and rich world that is probably WAY more fun than the “real” world we live in. She thinks it’s real, I think it’s fantasy, and from either viewpoint, WHO CARES IF IT CREATES MEANING FOR SOMEONE?

    The trick, it seems to me, is how to help people be functional in real life while ALSO creating a beautiful mythology of their lives that gives them meaning THAT THEY CREATE THEMSELVES.

    Is there another universe you are escaping to Elizabeth?


    Is it “mind art.”

    Either case, the experience CAN. BE. EXACTLY. THE. SAME.

    And in either case, we create it ourselves.

    1. Katageek- William I wonder what make you believe that what you create, your universe has more meaning, more value, more importance, and better than universe others create ?
      I lived through the II WW, run among burning houses , starvations was our daily bread, lived in communism, escaped and lived as a refugee, Did not speak league, lived in 6 different countries, moved 56 times had 4 husbands lived through major car accident where I have had serious brain damage and I made my come back, plus 3 minor ones. I have escaped from life?
      I have seen and lived 10 time more than you have So DEARE BOY FUCK -OFF. The hot wind which blows from Austin Texas is just that. You bloody pride make you believe that you are superior to us all. Handled that.

      1. “So DEARE BOY FUCK -OFF. The hot wind which blows from Austin Texas is just that. You bloody pride make you believe that you are superior to us all. Handled that.”

        Okay. Sure.

    2. Katageek:
      The trick, it seems to me, is how to help people be functional in real life while ALSO creating a beautiful mythology of their lives that gives them meaning THAT THEY CREATE THEMSELVES.

      Excellent point.


  26. I think the question might answer itself if the actual way or ways Scientologists have been/are “worse” as employees are differentiated and delineated. HOW have they been worse? HOW have non-Scientologists been “better”?

    This might actually generalize across “party lines”. Some Christians, some Muslims, some people of whatever ideology (Communists, Republicans, Democrats, Radical Feminists, NRA members, assault rifle owners, whatever) may share traits or attitudes that make them “worse employees”.

    I’m not going to try very hard to guess why this might be so, especially if you have a ready pool of unanalyzed data based on past experience with Scn and non-Scn elmployees.

  27. Geir, your observation about Scientology employees is no doubt true, but my experience comes from the other perspective. Having worked for a number of WISE companies, I have to say that Scientologists make the WORST employers. And in a company that is large enough (such as Diskeeper) to have multiple strata of management, the level of “crazy” can get absolutely mind-boggling. Although I’m now self-employed and unlikely to go back to work for someone else, just in case I have vowed to never again work for a company owned or run by a Scientologist.

    1. I can definitely relate to that. I almost went to work for Diskeeper but the pay was so horrible, and all the other demands were so insane I said “no way”.

      But I have worked for many Scientologists – especially in the LA area. I can tell you that the best ones to work for were the ones who REFUSED to use admin tech in any way in their businesses.

      I had one employer who had his business literally stolen from him by ABLE, and from then on wanted nothing more to do with WISE or any other Scientology entity getting into his affairs. He was still a dedicated Scientologist but would have no more Scientology in business. He was the least crazy of any Scientology bosses I ever had.

      When OSA found out I was writing about Scientology on the Internet and told him to to fire me, he still did, though.

      He was a Scientologist, after all.


  28. And while you guys are thinking on Geirs two points, you may want to do a doctrine comparison of Scientology to the “Golden Verses of Pythagoras.”

    How Pythagoras suggests humans treat Gods, Daemons and our fellow humans is very much in line with your beliefs. The mix of real life and spirituality are pretty interesting.

    A good translation for The “Golden Verses of Pythagoras” is on Wikipedia. Just look it up and see something that may read very familiar to you all.

    Lots of posts here today! It’s been awhile. I’ve got a lot going right now so I can’t post like I used to. Real life beckons.

    1. Katageek- William I wonder what make you believe that what you create, your universe has more meaning, more value, more importance, and better than universe others create ?
      I lived through the II WW, run among burning houses , starvations was our daily bread, lived in communism, escaped and lived as a refugee, Did not speak league, lived in 6 different countries, moved 56 times had 4 husbands lived through major car accident where I have had serious brain damage and I made my come back, plus 3 minor ones. I have escaped from life?
      I have seen and lived 10 time more than you have So DEARE BOY FUCK -OFF. The hot wind which blows from Austin Texas is just that. You bloody pride make you believe that you are superior to us all. Handled that.

    2. Katageek I have read it, and by the looks of it it is you who have a huge miss-understanding what is scientology since dont see the two can be compared.
      Your reality is something else…

        1. to your question: go to your blog read it through and find the answer..

            1. hehehe got to be that. how silly of me, that is the reason he was asking…. you right..How are you?

            2. I’m fine, thanks for asking. New little side game of comming with FLB Justice Chief and see how that goes.

      1. If you swap out the words “Gods,” “Terrestrial Daemons” and “worship” for Scientology equivalents, you may see more similarities. Especially since your religion sees the universe being created by agreement, and especially since your religion sees a power hierarchy created through millions of years of game conditions within that agreement.

        Look beyond the Greek Mythology churchy stuff.

        And i live in DFW Elizabeth. The stink from Austin is Bat Guano. Because Austin Texas has the largest bat population in one place on earth. And it’s right under the Congress Street Bridge. Every night three MILLION or so bats fly out from that bridge.

        Nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nhu-nuh-nuh-nuh – BAT SHIT!

        1. Thanks for the info about the bats : knowing that I reached zazen!
          knowledge having it is not the license to walk all over people who know less or different than you.
          Knowledge is personal, having it will not make you better but only different.
          and I understand why you mention ”bridge” . I feel sadness that you see all others inferior and your-self a supperior… zazen is a word you know, but not practice..
          You go into blogs to point out negative which is your reality, you could not see it if that would not exist in your own universe.
          You get your highs by pointing out wrongnes in otheres? Is that Zazen, is that the way?
          You have pride in your knowledge, you continualy compare yours with others and you believe yours is supperior. See only negative bad in others?

    3. Katageek don’t bother to call me unless you will be apologizing not only to me but to the rest of the bloggers who come here to have a good time.

      1. I didn’t intend to offend but discuss. But in reading my post again, I see how some definition variations could create a positive or negative spin. I was aiming for positive.

        Guess I missed that target with you dearie.

        ((BLOG HUG))

        1. I am not a little old thing so dont patronise.. If that was your apology I have no idea how to take it. You have really missed the point.You said you want to interview yet you said you do not believe it is true what I say.. What is that?

            1. I figured you are good enough to take the same crap as you dish out. I was right.. love you William.. remember every experience is there for a reason..


      1. First worship ((ADMIRE)) the Immortal Gods, as they are established and ordained by the Law.
      2. Reverence the Oath, and next the Heroes, full of goodness and light.
      3. Honour likewise the Terrestrial Daemons by rendering them the worship ((ADMIRATION)) lawfully due to them.

      12. But above all things respect yourself.
      13. In the next place, observe justice in your actions and in your words.
      14. And do not accustom yourself to behave yourself in any thing without rule, and without reason.

      30. Never do anything which you do not understand.

      50. You will know the constitution of the Immortal Gods and of men.
      51. Even how far the different beings extend, and what contains and binds them together.
      52. You shall likewise know that according to Law, the nature of this universe is in all things alike,
      53. So that you shall not hope what you ought not to hope; and nothing in this world shall be hidden from you.
      54. You will likewise know, that men draw upon themselves their own misfortunes voluntarily, and of their own free choice.
      55. Unhappy they are! They neither see nor understand that their good is near them.
      56. Few know how to deliver themselves out of their misfortunes.
      57. Such is the fate that blinds humankind, and takes away his senses.
      58. Like huge cylinders they roll back and forth, and always oppressed with innumerable ills.
      59. For fatal strife, natural, pursues them everywhere, tossing them up and down; nor do they perceive it.

      63. But take courage; the race of humans is divine.

      66. And by the healing of your soul, you wilt deliver it from all evils, and from all afflictions.

      70. And when, after having deprived yourself of your mortal body, you arrived at the most pure Aither,
      71. You shall be a God, immortal, incorruptible, and Death shall have no more dominion over you. ((A PYTHAGOREAN OT?))

      MY BEST VERSE TO TAKE TO HEART: 25. Do not let any man either by his words, or by his deeds, ever seduce you.

      1. 25′ ..Means: Don’t compromise your own reality
        You should also compare all those point to Zen.. to be fair…
        And dont think Zen is so different. You see on the end there is no more than NOW.. When all is taken away, fall away, erased, as-ised confronted sorted out than only now IS. that singular moment creation-experience.
        The road might be different but the end what is there is the same.. so William dont shit on somebody else path.. not polite.

        1. On #25 – that’s right – Don’t compromise your own reality!

          Many a woman complains that her husband doesn’t even bother to try to seduce her, but just expects her to give it up automatically because they are married!

          Much of the game is built around seductions of various kinds…..

          1. give a bit more reality on ”seduction”.. i would like to hear different reality on that concept. please…

            1. se·duce
              tr.v. se·duced, se·duc·ing, se·duc·es

              1. To lead away from duty, accepted principles, or proper conduct. See Synonyms at lure.
              2. To induce to engage in sex.
              a. To entice or beguile into a desired state or position.
              b. To win over; attract.

            2. Thanks again… love it.. seduction is a constant activity…none stop..even the beauty of the flower… is seduses….to have and to hold, to captivate, to capture,

      2. The above is your interpretation how you see those concepts and that interpretations is expressing only your reality.

      3. I like the following:

        30. Never do anything which you do not understand.

        This is the same thing that I say, “Never go by an unresolved inconsistency.”


        1. This is kind of like the whole “MU” thing but … yet not. But looking back, this one shouldn’t be in the list of parallel Scientology concepts. It KIND of goes with “What’s true for you” so I left it.

          1. “Never do anything which you do not understand”
            HaHaha…..I say, DO and ENJOY way too many things without trying to understand them with the mind…..shall I give examples? Sense/perceive/feel and ACT!

      4. The following reflects Buddha’s doctrine:

        53. So that you shall not hope what you ought not to hope; and nothing in this world shall be hidden from you.

        Buudha says, “Observe things as they are, not just as they seem to be.”


      5. From the Golden Verses:

        54. You will likewise know, that men draw upon themselves their own misfortunes voluntarily, and of their own free choice.

        I think there is NO free choice. There is only ignorance and short-circuiting.


        1. Yes, but how much does this parallel the “Responsibility” doctrine of Scientology? Here I’ll demonstrate by side kicking you to the face Chuck Norris style.

          ((SIDE KICK TO THE FACE! BAM!))

          KATAKEEK: Blame yourself! You pulled it in!


          1. Kata
            “you pulled it in” Right! You re-started blogging because “you pulled Marianne in” – isn’t it a nice pull-in? And you have been rolling since then! So don’t cut back! I trust you to give to the egos sometimes in a martial art’s way! It’s to everybody’s benefit (you know there is only the ONE) as all flows are affected by you doing so. Me enjoying what you do and you bet I will tell you if I see the opposite. Good to have you here! (what you wrote earlier about meaning was perfect, among others, I quoted you)

      6. From the Golden Verses:

        70. And when, after having deprived yourself of your mortal body, you arrived at the most pure Aither,

        It should be, “… having deprived of your mortal body and mortal soul…”


      7. From the Golden Verses:

        71. You shall be a God, immortal, incorruptible, and Death shall have no more dominion over you. ((A PYTHAGOREAN OT?))

        No, the Pythagoreans had a misunderstood here… Both physical and spiritual identities are mortal.



          54. You will likewise know, that men draw upon themselves their own misfortunes voluntarily, and of their own free choice.

          “You pulled it in!”

          66. And by the healing of your soul, YOU WILT (emphasis mine) deliver it from all evils, from all afflictions.

          “You need to get rid of those implants!’

          71. You shall be a God, immortal, incorruptible, and Death shall have no more dominion over you.

          “YES! I …WILL … have fries with that! Fuck diabetes and heart disease!”

          Okay, we have the main Scientology idea of healing your spirit to become a God and YOU are completely responsible. An exact parallel.

          I think Hubbard may have taken a lot from these sans any credit (other than perhaps a note in SOS. Did he credit Pythagoras there in the original? Donno.) but it is known that a some mystical schools like the Rosecrucians hold the Golden Verses in high esteem.

          Damn. I broke my blog dopamine sobriety. Okay. I’ll post once a week. Yeah. I’ll cut back.

  29. The basis of human thinking:

    1. Anything conceived has to be different from THAT, which conceives it.

    2. To conceive THAT, which conceives, there must be a deeper THAT, which conceives it.

    3. This regression may be taken back without limit.

    4. This means, anything conceived can be defined, but, THAT, which conceives, cannot be fully defined.

    5. Here we have another example of INFINITY.

    6. In other words, anything conceived is measurable, whereas, THAT, which conceives, is not.

    7. This property of being measurable may be called dimension. The word DIMENSION comes from Latin, dimensio, extent or measuring parameter. Dimension defines what is conceived.

    8. We may say that anything conceived has “dimension,” whereas, THAT, which conceives, does not have “dimension.”

    9. Infinity is “absence of dimension.” Infinity is unknowable.

    10. That, which conceives, is unknowable.


  30. Personal gains come from removing ‘alter-is’, or the filters, which are made up of considerations. Scientology provides a new and more efficient way of removing filters.

    However, the ultimate filter is the consideration of self, and Scientology stops short of it. Scientology does not address the ultimate filter of self.

    So Scientology has been beneficial, except when it comes to the core subject of self, That is where Scientology gets into ‘games condition’, ‘PTSs and SPs’, ‘OT status’, ‘Training Class status’, and so on.

    Scientology Axiom #1 glorifies the self (individuality). This is the achilles heel of Scientology. Remove the fixation on “who” and Scientology will come out of its spin.

    Under self, or thetan, lies the concept of THETA. THETA and MEST are two aspects of the same system. They are not two separate systems in games condition with each other as proposed by the THETA-MEST Theory.

    You update the THETA-MEST theory per KHTK and you will resolve the enigma of Scientology.


    1. After all these years and miles of written post, you have still not answered the question of “who or what” is LOOKING at this “same system” you propose exists. After you unmock yourself, what is left? And, Why Bother?

      1. The answer has been given many many times. Please don’t blame. Blaming does not belong in discussion. What effort have you made to understand what I have been saying?



      2. Valkov: After all these years and miles of written post, you have still not answered the question of “who or what” is LOOKING at this “same system” you propose exists. After you unmock yourself, what is left? And, Why Bother?

        Chris: I am seeing the self of myself in a big way. It includes all that I am including all my harmony and discord. “Why bother” to unmock it is not in the sense of wholesale destruction but as a path of enlightenment whereby my life is examined and organized and tuned. It is in my nature to do this. Living is what we do until we don’t do it anymore. This is the way it is. This is the way it always was. Sort it out and participate in it however you please. The answer to “who or what” can only be answered for oneself by oneself. If that seems paradoxical or whatever, sort out why it seems paradoxical until it resolves.

        1. Perhaps the semantic problem here is that “unmock” as I mean it is the effort to deny or “make nothing of”, invalidate.

          That is how I read Vin’s postings about it. Solipsism is not the answer for me. I do believe 2-way comm is possible and a good thing.

          1. hehe Well, there’s so much invalidation flying back and forth that I’ve had to pretty much tune it out the same way I do my tinnitus. LOL.

            But as to “unmock” or even the word “as-is,” I have a little bit different working definition of what’s happening upon my own introspection. I make mental adjustments and I bring disharmony “into tune” by viewing it closely and with interest. Upon close examination, I find that I seem to be able to view concepts, considerations if you will, whatever; clearly and upon seeing them clearly, I then decide what to do about them. If they seem beneficial, I give them energy and reinforce them. If not, then I seem to stop doing them; or having them (the considerations.)

          1. Valkov.. that is silly to have your own reality sincer your answers, knowledge is inferior, no value to them. The only way to fly is Vins way..

            1. He he. See my posts below. You can read them as you knit! 🙂

    2. Vinaire: So Scientology has been beneficial, except when it comes to the core subject of self, That is where Scientology gets into ‘games condition’, ‘PTSs and SPs’, ‘OT status’, ‘Training Class status’, and so on. Scientology Axiom #1 glorifies the self (individuality). This is the achilles heel of Scientology. Remove the fixation on “who” and Scientology will come out of its spin. Under self, or thetan, lies the concept of THETA. THETA and MEST are two aspects of the same system. They are not two separate systems in games condition with each other as proposed by the THETA-MEST Theory.

      Chris: To me, this is a huge leap forward. The resolution of self can’t be stuffed into the framework; into the bubble of Scientology. It doesn’t fit. This explains, satisfactorily to me, the morass of Scientology. It’s not a morass until “I” try to resolve “I.” It’s pretty good until that point. Ignoring the rest of the unholy money-grubbing purposes, a person can do pretty well; can make good progress understanding; unravelling things if he can cherry pick from Scientology. Scientology’s failure was in promoting itself as an all-encompassing life-swallowing religion. But in fairness, all religion does this.

      1. These ideas seem to be without basis or perhaps without context. You guys are using abstractions as though they are realities. The abstractions are only symbols.

        Any particular “self’ or aspect of self may or may not be felt to “need unraveling”. It is really a purely subjective matter. Many “selves” may not be felt to need any kind of “unraveling”, and that is really no-one else’s business. Except perhaps the business of those who want to set themselves up in the guru business and evaluate for others.

        So if you feel there is something about yourself that needs unraveling, go for it. Otherwise, why bother?

        1. Identities and valences are simply layers on the “onion of self”. Self is the ultimate identity or valence.


            1. Valkov: “What does this sentence mean?”

              Attachment to some basic considerations is the self. There is no self when there is no attachment or there are no considerations to be attached to.


            2. “42.”

              Yeah. Nailed it. And it took HOW LONG for our planet’s programming to figure it out!

              Go Bipeds! GO! You mice can take a hike. Xenu aint got shit on the mice folks.

              THE ULTIMATE QUESTION: “What does this sentence mean?”

              THE ULTIMATE ANSWER: “42.”

        2. I will try to make myself better understood.

          When tossing these ideas back and forth; when trying to unravel a problem, especially to understand paradoxes like why religion does not work except subjectively, I find myself asking why that would be.

          The answer that I get is context. (I know, so what?) I find mental structures, somewhat like a normal building or home to be their own independent system. Not exclusively, but enough where they separate out and I can talk or think about them as separate structures. So a home or building or mental structure stands on its own and as far as the Building Department in Phoenix is concerned must be consistent unto itself and to stand on its own. Stay with me, this is going somewhere.

          Scientology, as well as other religions, also are systems unto themselves. We can talk about them as “sets”(math), or as “frames of reference,” etc.,. Each building; each philosophy has its own integrity and its own “consistency.” According to Kurt Gödel, a wonderful mathematician of this past century worked out what are called Godel’s Incompleteness Theorems which contain the following two parts:
          1. If the system is consistent, it cannot be complete.
          2. The consistency of the axioms cannot be proven within the system.

          Godel’s use was for logic and mathematics, but conceptually it seems to me that language might translate over into everyday thinking about life and that is what I have been trying to do.

          So when I write, “To me, this is a huge leap forward. The resolution of self can’t be stuffed into the framework; into the bubble of Scientology. It doesn’t fit. This explains, satisfactorily to me, the morass of Scientology. It’s not a morass until “I” try to resolve “I.” It’s pretty good until that point.” I am saying that Scientology is consistent within itself. Therefore it cannot be complete. And in fact, this is easy to see. The world is bigger than any system of thought. Scientology and for that matter other religions work consistently within their own context and only get into outright failure when one attempts to correct their incompleteness by expanding them beyond what their structure can contain.

          This is consistent with the OP and I believe shows why Geir’s wins on OT8 are consistent yet Scientology is forever incomplete as regards the larger scope of objective reality. Again, within the context of Scientology, Scientology works. Outside of that context, not as much and this has nothing to do with any bias or faulty experience or training on my own part. It has to do with the basic mechanics of how the world fits together.

            1. Thank you deE. I abhor reading long posts and feel guilty when I write one. In Maria’s words, it wouldn’t have made any sense if it were shorter.

          1. Well I can’t agree with your statement of it. Self is Dynamic1, isn’t it? The “set” of scientology includes at least 8 Dynamics, maybe as many as 16 or so.

            So to say that “The resolution of self can’t be stuffed into the framework; into the bubble of Scientology. It doesn’t fit.” seems just plain… silly?

            The resolution of one piddly Dynamic can’t “be stuffed” into a “bubble” that includes that Dynamic and at least 7, maybe 15, more Dynamics
            just plain doesn’t make any sense to me.

            1. My conclusion is, when you speak of the “bubble called scientology” you are referring to your particular construct of that bubble. This may be quite different from my construct of a “bubble called scientology”. We are literally not talking about the same object of reference.

              I have referred to this before as the “Tower of Babel” phenomenon as described in the Christian Bible. Each person’s understanding of any particular word or combination of words is always to some extent idiosyncratic. This makes communication difficult at best.

              It is the reason why Study Tech and Word Clearing is included in Scientology – without those,it is likely very few of us would ever be on the same page about anything.

            2. We have discussed this before in terms of the “blind men and the elephant” story.

              All that still applies.

            3. Valkov –

              I get what you are saying about the bubble construct of each person’s view of Scientology. But what I have found is that the person who is still calling himself a Scientologist normally tells the person who is no longer calling himself a Scientologist that the Ex “never understood Scientology in the first place” and that he probably has overts against it and was so low-toned and obtuse that he NEVER even came close to TRUE Scientology.

              The reason for the differing bubbles normally boils down to a personal failure of some kind – whether on the exe’s part, or because the people who were delivering Scientology were “squirrels”. This invalidates the Ex and the people that the Ex was involved in, as well as all of their understandings and applications of Scientology, and leaves the TRUE Scientology pure and untouched.

              Or does your bubble construct allow the possibility of actual failures on the part of TRUE Scientology, with no actual failures on the part of the ex?

              Seeking clarification here….

              Because if your bubble construct can not include actual failures on the part of TRUE Scientology, then it is logically inconsistent that TRUE Scientology could produce such a huge range of differences in subjective experiences. Your bubble construct must logically embrace the idea that TRUE Scientology works for some people and does not work for others. Otherwise, starting from L Ron Hubbard on down (and this would include David Miscavige) the subjective experiences which come from TRUE Scientology must all be uniformly positive.

              Awaiting your generous reply.


            4. Four Functions of Mythology per J. Campbell:

              1. Reconcile the Individual to the Foundations of his Existence.
              2. Fully Explain the Cosmos as it Relates to Consciousness.
              3. Provide the Rules for a Social, Moral Order.

    3. It is a mere explanation to say that problems with Scientology arise because people are not applying it correctly. That has been the wrong why because the problem with Scientology continues to exist.


      1. It may well be the right “why”.

        Simply observing a problem like that will not make it go away, any more than observing that your kitchen is messy will make it clean. or observing that your car isn’t running will magically make it run again. That is what child psychologists call “magical thinking”.

        Once a problem is observed,usually some action needs to be taken, a doing, in order to change or correct the observed state of affairs.

        Frankly, it is this kind of unreality in your posting that keeps me away from spending much time looking at your blog and KHTK, as this kind of post does not demonstrate a high degreeof of accuracy in reflecting the reality of things.

          1. Thanks dE. Succinctly put. That is what I was trying to say.

            Back in the day, I heard about a woman who joined staff in Detroit who interpreted some of LRH’s statements about postulating to mean that she could “think her apartment clean”.

            So everyday when she left for work, she postulated that her apartment would be clean when she got home.

            Somehow it never happened!

            I think she may have explained this by thinking she was simply “not OT enough(yet?) to make it go right”. Twilight Zone anyone? 🙂

            1. Hell Valkov, i have rocks in my head i have cleaned houses for 14 years, worked so hard… why I have not thought of that jut postulating it clean and collecting the money for it.? I need to go into V.. blog to find some answer why I am being wrong so aften..

          2. He he. Let me know which section I need to read to be able to do the same thing! 🙂

            1. I have come to conclusion about postulates… i have arrived to two totally different reality, and cant change this uderstanding.

        1. The test of the real WHY is “when it is corrected, do stats recover?” If they do that was it. And any other remedial order given but based on a wrong why would have to be cancelled quickly. ~ L. RON HUBBARD

          The situation with Scientology is not a recent one. KSW was written in 1965 which provided this “why”.

          It has been almost half a century since then. There seem to be an inconsistency here.


          1. The key phrase is “when it is corrected”. Until it is corrected, stats will not recover.

        2. Using the exact same process, would you say that the reverse is true as well? In other words would you say that some measure of mental will; observation; or “as-isness” could result in a physical manifestion?

    4. There is no “enigma of Scientology” as far as I’m concerned. Thus there is nothing to resolve, thus I don’t need KHTK.

      It does appear that whatever Geir posts as a discussion topic, Vinnie manages to somehow bring KHTK into the discussion as “the solution” to some problem supposedly posed by Geir’s post and the posts of others.

      Since KHTK is Vinnie’s “baby”, this seems like self-promotion to me. KHTK is being promoted as “the solution” to every problem under the

      Where have we heard this before?

      1. You are exactly right about this. The person most opposing “the ego” is the person in the most self-promoting mode.

        1. Thanks Geir! I take comfort in thinking that even a bloated egotist like myself can be right about something! 🙂

          1. that is not news….you compare your self to LRH? I buy that, but you two only have one thing in common: you both have huge inflated egoes.

            1. Truth Revealed!

              *Vinnie is in a pissing contest with LRH!*

              Hey, at least he set his sights high, eh?

  31. Hi.

    I really do not know for now what is the right path (or “Bridge”) but the one of Bill Roberson of the Ron’s Orgs, looks to me the closest or even further of what I was used to read as OT wins in the first “Advanced” and the on the most able to put in real the OT abilities spoken in the Philadelphia Doctorate Course and LRH’s lectures of the same period.

    Here a page toward Bill Robertson peach including reading of Letters of Success on his upper Bridge:

    But as I don’t remember I have ever made any OT Level, I can’t compare with the remaining OT Levels of CoS or any other.

    Could you?

  32. Dianetics and Scientology should not be sold as the Savior of humanity. It should be sold as something that can help if applied correctly.
    No secrets, No Judgement, No Disconnection, Open house with full open communication and it will work fine as an applied philosophy.

    Anything else and it will fall flat. And that is what they did. It went of track from its original postulated path. I was with Ron in my previous body. And the current Phase of Scientology is not what we talked about back then.

    Somewhere it lost its path and it never found its way back to its original postulated path. The little Midget and his friends are also not helping.

    Oh, some of those that have left are still in contact with the Co$.
    “Keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer”
    Those with half a brain will understand.

    Scientology does not fix your problems as it is sold by the current Group. It is a set of processes that help you look at and resolve unconfronted areas of your life so that you can better formulate a future for yourself. If you look at it as THE ANSWER to your problems then you will fail and be disappointed.

    Once you are AWARE of a condition that was affecting you, it is not the end of the problem. The relief you get, is, it coming to your awareness. It is not the resolution of your problem. Your Problem or issue has to be processed to an ability that you did not have or was not aware of having. Meaning you can now HANDLE this issue or situation without getting overwhelmed. So, if you do not have the end result of a level, it means you have not finished it. Do not go onto the next level until you finish it to the ability it is designed to bring into your awareness.

    Those who feel not satisfied with Scientology have skipped, jumped, have been pushed or fooled into going onto the next level too quickly. And this happens for two reasons.

    1/ The push for Money Money Money.
    2/ The push for Stats to be High. And then Higher. And then Higher.

    The missing link or Lost link is the PC getting better.
    Not the PC moving up the Bridge.

    I look forward to a better future for all of humanity.


    IMHO 🙂

    1. JCS, thanks for this outstanding comment! I fully agree that the all the altered principles and altered applications of the path LRH originally marked out are simply that – alterations. What made Scn “fall flat”, as you put it, were those alterations and that is what so many critics are rightly complaining about.

      Amazing how well you summed up the story of Scientology in one short but very well-versed and well-spoken post. You made my day! 🙂

  33. SELF is like the HOLE of a donut. If the donot goes away, then the hole goes away too.

    Our donut is made of our considerations.of ‘what-is’.


          1. My reaction reading. ho-ham, ok…. ??? interesting, very interesting, most interesting, facinating! Thank you for the link.

    1. You know, I would have said the self is like the “donut”. It is the “hole” that never goes away. The “hole” is the “emptiness” the “void’ Buddhists speak of; after all how can something that is not there in the first place, “go away”?

      It is like the diagram of the Dynamics, which is misrepresented in how people are instructed to draw it; we are told to label the center circle as Dynamic 1, but that is wrong, it is an alter-is. Dynamic 1 is actually the first concentric circle; the center circle represents the Static which is the source of all the concentric circles which represent all the Dynamics.

      1. Valkov: “… after all how can something that is not there in the first place, “go away”?”

        “Hole” is not real something. It is an appearance due to the mass of dough around it.

        Similarly, “self” is not real something. It is an appearance due to the mass of considerations around it.



    The concept of responsibility seems to be very much messed up in Scientology. It is basically used to drive people hard by making them wrong.

    Responsibility, to me, is simply a ‘focus of attention’. By appointing a person to a certain post, you are saying that this is the focus of your attention. Now respond to what is happening there.

    This is where LOOKING comes in. One looks in that area and perceives what is really there. He spots the inconsistencies and looks at them more closely. This is where Data Series comes in. The moment one finds the right why there is cooperation all around and the situation simply resolves.


  35. In reviewing this thread, I have a couple of reflections.

    Firstly; That I “would go Clear on Anything” doesn’t really cut it for me. It seems like a thinly veiled flattering in an effort to nullify Scientology. But as I have experienced some very valuable and measurable results from exact Scientology processes, I hold the view that Scientology did in fact catalyze these results in me. One definite example is that I used to have nightmares up until doing OT 8. In the 6,5 years since that week of doing OT 8 I have had None. Zero. Not one single nightmare. Astonishing.

    So, I truly believe there is merit in the Scientology technology processes that actually helped me a great deal.

    O the other hand I see the sorry scene of Scientology. It is contracting, has not made any real impact in the world, is made the laughing stock of religions – a joke around dinner tables.

    I think this is partly due to the horrendously flawed admin tech – the worst of Hubbard’s creations.

    It may also be due to the introspective nature of large parts of the tech. That the person is asked to examine the causes of his issues may not be such a great idea as it may seem at first.glance. Most Scientologists I know worry too much about their own case and issues. It leaves many people with too much attention on themselves, their ego, their “bubble”. Dropping the introspective parts and going full blast on creative processes would perhaps leave the subject more relaxed, more chill and able to not give a fuck. I believe that would be the road to a happier life.

    1. Geir
      When one finally crosses the finish line, one stops and finally relaxes.
      This could have been at least one reason why your nightmares ceased. I don’t mean to devaluate the value of the process(es) of OT8. Also, the lots of introspect. mixed with the “daily dose of dense energy” coming from people in life, plus heightened creative imagination due to clearer and clearer mental space could cause the nightmares + your personal interest in fantazy children stories etc. before the level. Finish line reached – end of story. (?)

          1. Marianne you cant get Geirs reality, you only can have yours reality how you see that same topic. No one know how one sees that black cat…

          2. MT… if you would understand exactely what Geir meas, feel, or have total understanding about every body in this universe that WOULD MEAN YOU HAVE CREATED THE UNIVERSE!
            We only have total reality of what we create.

        1. But OTVIII is the”finish line” as far as the auditing side of the Bridge goes, unless there are some rundowns you haven’t done, like the Ls. There are various other rundowns too I believe. And the original OT levels, which I understand to be like “OT muscle building” drills.

          1. Val has got you on that one Geir. Now I forget, which one of those has the EP of “Cause over matter, energy, space, and time; on all dynamics, both subjective and objective?” I believe that was the OT muscle builder you were looking for.

            1. My note on the OT8 follow-up thread reads:

              One note to OT 8: It is Not the last level – never was, never was intended to be. It is not even half-way across the canyon. The Bridge does stop in mid-air. One is, as an OT 8 not capable of taking oneself “all the way” (wherever one defines that). There is other knowledge needed. I have come to realize that I must complete the rest of the bridge by utilizing sources outside of Scientology.

            2. So if it worked till than OT 8 than you tell me why the same application of tech stop working at one point?
              The auditing questions DO address the whole track not just part of it. The auditing questions address incidents, ARCB’d, problems, emotions, assumptios. Anything which belongs to the Pc, created by the PC, feels by that person. You are putting something there which is not a fact.

            3. Isene
              “I have come to realize that I must complete the rest of the bridge by utilizing sources outside of Scientology”.
              You probably know the following Zen saying: when one crosses the river on a boat and gets to the other bank of the river, one thanks the boat and continues on one’s way. Does not put the boat on one’s shoulder but explores what’s on the other side. Ok, this boat didn’t take you to the other side – you are completely right in finding other
              means/vehicles to get you there.

            4. Elizabeth,
              It looks like not many people have the balls to confront their implants.

            5. Ferenc , jo estet. One do not need balls hehehe.. I have bumped into my first one by accident. Looking at that incredible technology, laboratory was like wow: what is this? I was totally clues less what I was looking at, since than lot of other experiences I have had.
              But I had huge win out of the first one and after that I looked for them but by looking for implant stations none come up..
              Usually they have popped up unacceptably and every one was a marvel a the technology so far advanced beyond the understanding here… truly left me admiring that ability to create something so complicated intriguing and powerful.
              Of course why I received those thought- believes [ implant material] and went into agreement with them was very simple.. Just look at yourself, what your mother thought you as a babe, you never questioned that either… Implant is a experience same as you see on apple, there is a color, size, taste, weight, smell=energy.
              Implant stations do the same gives a experience. It is like a wonderfully made movie rolling on and it is realistic as the apple you hold in your hand bite into it, taste it: full experience.
              Implant is the same, you watch that experienced that movie[implant’ and you totally experience it and have it duplicated it, have total reality you in fact believe ’’ you lived what you have just viewed’’, but those implants have very strong energy and one can’t pull away from that UNTILL a stronger energy comes along and yanks one away from that implant movie and the person now experiences that… But the impression of that implant-movie you take with you…. We all had many –many of them their number how many is impassible to know… but they are just energy with pictures-concepts…
              The way I look at them every one was as on experience, and they hold no more danger than you get into your car and drive on the road.
              Every one of them can be confronted –erased and even confronting itself hold -has a different meaning to me.
              Feri, if one is willing to look at a movie sit through it, than one should be interested in one’s own creation which is ones very own universe and let me tell you it is more fun because one is the writer-director-producer and the viewer at the same time..
              You can say the balls of Elizabeth’s are: wanting to know..

    2. Spell binding!

      Well then, I offer you the Viking rune: Kenaz
      It should serve you well in Midgard!

      And the Hebrew letter Gimel:
      – A bridge; the connecting force inherent in nature.
      – Primordial matter and Divine wisdom.
      – The weaning of the tzimtzum (see link on creation)



      And the Greek letter Gamma: the triple goddess, creation-continuance-destruction, birth-life-death

      And, just in case you’ve forgotten, here is a rundown on the Gamma Quadrant, courtesy of our Star Trekking friends of movie fame. Never mind Batman — how about Star trekking?


      😀 Just couldn’t resist playing around!

      1. Oh. BTW — the above comment is addressed to Geir!

        (It ended up so far below his comment about creating that it lost its connection!)

      2. I guess, we are all flat on scientology. It is time to build the next bridge to total freedom. I propose one based on personality:

        lets start finding all the corners of it understanding that one only hates the loved thing, imo.

        😀 Just couldn’t resist playing around as well !

    3. Geir: “It [the sorry scene of Scientology ] may also be due to the introspective nature of large parts of the tech. That the person is asked to examine the causes of his issues may not be such a great idea as it may seem at first glance.”

      I don’t agree with that as an accurate description of the tech. A pc does look inwardly but it is for the purpose of viewing the unconfronted areas of his life so that he is now able to resolve them – and by resolving them he is less and less introverted in life, not more so.

      You yourself have basically described this idea where you talk about taking responsibility for one’s own creations, and where you indicated that Scn auditing enabled you to do just that.

      The CoS instilled mindset of introversion is not part of the tech or if it became so, that is a gross alteration of it.

      1. I am merely questioning the practice of looking at the cause of one’s issues rather than out-creating them.

        1. I got that, Geir, but I was disagreeing with your REASONS for “questioning the practice of looking at the cause of one’s issues”.

          As I already commented, I don’t see that it is the tech that causes “most Scientologists to worry too much about their own case and issues”, or that the tech “leaves many people with too much attention on themselves, their ego, their ‘bubble’.” In other words, the tech isn’t the why.

          In any case, I’m not disagreeing that out-creating one’s issues could be a better path. Even LRH talked about that method too, where he wrote about bringing a thetan up to an ability to create energy at a high enough level to be able to do so. (I just posted a quote on that recently.) And he stated that Standard Tech wasn’t the only path, just a workable one.

          1. I suspect introspection tend to interiorize, shrink space and create worry. The processes themselves may very well have that is its natural side effect. I see this in psychology as well (students of).

            1. This puts me in mind of the lecture “The Road to Truth”, in which LRH warns that once a person steps on this road, all manner of troubles are likely to beset him if he doesn’t walk it all the way.

              Geir, you walked it all the way having completed through OT VIII and are now extroverted, having sorted out and dropped all your baggage, you are no longer dragged down by your past.

              The theory of going up the Bridge is that it is a process of achieving a release, which then brings up “the (next) incident necessary to resolve the case”, and the person goes “unrelease” as he dives into getting the next state of release.

              So according to theory, it is natural that some of his attention will be introverted. But he will have more and more attention units available,
              as he progresses.

              It is also the case that each session or completed action of the tech ought to result in a relative extroversion; ie, part the EP of any case action ought to be an extroversion. If this doesn’t happen, either the process is incomplete, or possibly it has been overrun. Possibly there are other outnesses that can occur, but I believe those are the
              basic 2. An FN has not been reached, or an FN has been passed.

              So yes, much processing does result in some attention remaining or re-turning inwards, and this is common in many people engaged in any kind of mental therapy or studies.

              At least Scientology, properly administered and properly auditied, does provide the possibility of getting to where you are – extroverted and interested in things outside yourself. Possibly it takes going up to and through OTVIII.

            2. Geir –

              Have you ever studied a cognitive behavioral therapy approach? CBT has you examine your own thinking, but you also develop skills of questioning and testing your own thinking and other ways of disputation.

              My point is that there are many ways to overcome mental obstacles, not just going earlier similar or considering that the cause is always an incident somewhere earlier on a time track.

              In fact, this is a teeny tiny little slice of all the ways to approach the mind. And, for many things, Hubbard’s “causal time track” approach has been proven ineffective and even destructive in some cases, such as addiction.

              Hubbard did not know what he was doing. He never allowed testing of results, and he never allowed any criticism or outside review. There is no way that L Ron Hubbard’s methods are going to work for a large population of human beings. His Dianetic model of the mind has been disproven decades ago. There is no such thing as a reactive mind, or an engram.

              Hubbard was current with pop psychology up until about 1959. After that, he went off into his own little world. And he did not develop something better than was being developed by the pros in the field of the mind. By his testing and development methodology alone, you can see that the chances of success by L Ron Hubbard would be just about nil.

              Or maybe not.

              I think it is great that you got the wins you got out of Scientology. Have you ever considered what you might have gotten if you had spent even a fraction of the time and money elsewhere?

              Have you considered the opportunity cost of Scientology?


            3. Geir, I would add to what Val said with this simple description of auditing: The whole intention is to take more and more charge off the case and by so doing (1) enable the pc to re-gain abilities that were blocked or submerged by the charge, and (2) to gradually bring the individual up the tone scale. As to how tone level relates to a tendency to be introspective or introverted, here is one reference:

              “The reality tone scale on extroversion-introversion would be, at a glance, that around tone 4.0 the interior world was sufficiently comfortable so that the individual’s thought and perception was mainly directed toward the exterior world and his computation had to do with present time and the future. And as one descended the tone scale, one could see…less and less concern with the exterior world and the future and more and more involvement in the interior world and the past, until the majority of the theta was enturbulated and death ensued.There would be, then, an extroversion-introversion scale which would mark very sharply the position of the person on the tone scale. The position of the person would, of course, be determined by the amount of free theta with which he was endowed and the percentage of that theta which had become entheta.” (Science of Survival)

            4. “The position of the person would, of course, be determined by the amount of free theta with which he was endowed and the percentage of that theta which had become entheta.” ~ LRH as quoted by Marildi

              THETA appears to be considerations, and ENTHETA seems to be considerations that are balled up.


            5. Vin, this post exploits yet again inconsistencies with the definition of theta. It is inconsistent to say that theta has no mass, wavelength, etc.,. and then to say there is something called “entheta” which is short for “enturbulated theta.”

              Theta could only become enturbulated if it had MEST properties.

            6. p.s. to Geir. We should also keep in mind that it’s pretty difficult to evaluate results on pcs when there have been so many other factors involved in the CoS for so many years now. For one thing there is a lot of inval and eval given to them by both org Reges and IAS reges in order to coerce them into giving up their money. Then when they are in debt beyond their means, it’s no wonder they start to become introspective and introverted. As well, the misapplication of ethics tech by Ethics Officers and MAAs, including even blackmail at times, is no doubt another source of roller coaster in pcs. Simply put, these things are suppressive.

              Then too, there’s the out- tech sec checks being given in the various non-interference zones, particularly the regularly scheduled 6-month checks of level VII. And from what many tech-trained people are posting on various blogs, the tailored sec checks being given drive in the pc’s anchor points. In a nutshell, there’s just too much Black Scientology going on in recent decades to be able to correlate tech with what you may have observed in many pcs.

            7. I know well the theory of auditing 🙂

              But – I suspect the lingering introversion, the sedimentation of introversion to be a greater liability than what Hubbard had thought. He never really studied any cases for longer time periods. We now have the benefit of seeing long-time application of tech. And I must say – cases within the CoS or outside, there is much introspection going on. The general happiness of the local skydiving club is better than the average Scientologists. I believe the opposite focus is needed in therapy – more objective type processes, creative processing. Just to out-create the shit. Because the cause is Never in the past. Never.

            8. The heavy drama, more auditing one has bigger the drama becomes. OT’s really know how to dramatize!!

              “Unfortunately, as my ability to mock up increased so did my ability to mock up my bank.” [ this was part of a comment in my blog]

              Well, here goes… you have not made your bank bigger, that is impassible since the BANK is already existing can’t add to it and One can only by as-ising it segments by segments as in session works- lessens that all ready existing package.

              So here are the very reasons the OT’s seem to dramatize more than before being in scientology.

              After having the OT levels finished or partially or even at the levels, that dramatization manifests itself.
              More energy-items has been erased, after that eraser the drama, which could be about anything, could become big-huge- monstrous in size and one must not forget: “drama” that creation-experience is after all huge having-ness of that moment it happens… And we love experiences!! We have created the universe just to experience! WE live to experience, and we love the stimulation!

              And why we dramatise our actions more after having been audited: you ask.
              The answer is very simple… too simple so some of you who are dramatizing looking for complicated answers will not see this as the cause of the big drama.

              Let me give on Example: you have front of you a huge barrel of apples, you only see which is visible to your eyes and you do not see it as singular apple but all of it at the same time, let say few hundred of them.. as the apples do vanish one by one now there is more room available for the remaining apples and those become more noticeable to you, you start to see them in detail.
              Now, what do you see after let say only six or seven apples are front of you in the barrel?
              You become aware of more color combinations and you even notice those apples are all different variety.
              You can now admire the content of the barrel, can pick up each apple and can see, feel, smell, weigh each one individually.
              You see, when lots of items are erased from the bank as-ised the remaining stuff seems heavier, bigger, they are manifested in their own reality, now they are not overwhelmed by other items=condensed.
              They now have a presence… regained their original powers as they were created by you way back when… an the track…

              So fellow traveler, your burden has not become bigger but you can see and sense experience more the remained items which have not benn confronted-erased and those items can be seen, experienced in the big way ‘NOW’,
              Your havin-ness has come up:Now you really can have: the universe have become more colorful, the pleasure moments are really there so is the suffering, the pain everything is bigger, better, or heavier, the loses are felt deeper, the fears can be felt deeper powerful too..
              ….. Now, that tiny cut hurts so much! One can see that some persons are really heavily into the heavy who is wrong and why, and can’t get out of that shit.. others become a huge victims of the churche, they get stuck so badly in that drama they can’t move in any direction… Others yell top of their lungs we must save the universe, we must save this or that. Drama-drama alaround: and since we become more aware we notice that dramatazation too.

            9. “We now have the benefit of seeing long-time application of tech. And I must say – cases within the CoS or outside, there is much introspection going on.”

              Geir, for one thing you are grouping cases within the CoS with those outside, and for another you aren’t saying what kind of “research” you’ve done or how much relevant data you’ve got. You obviously have the right to make conjectures on whatever you wish but you haven’t indicated your statements to be based on anything like true scientific protocol. And that doesn’t seem right to do.

              Nevertheless, I have already expressed an interest in exploring QM further, with an eye toward discovering a way that OT could be achieved through that knowledge. Remember? 🙂

            10. Buddha’s “Observe things as they are, not just as they seem to be.” is totally objective. This is what KHTK is based on.


            11. Wow! “The cause is never in the past. Never.” THE CAUSE….
              (like your comment, Geir!)

            12. There is no Cause. There is only appearance and disappearance of considerations and the interactions among them.


            13. Elizabeth
              Like! Yes, dramatization can be bigger….also sensation.
              Just yesterday saw its “depth”.

            14. MT… tell me what have you seen in detail please? was there some big news in hungary? What has happened? I am interested…

            15. MT….Than I have a proposition for you, You pack this ”’love” and sell it. trust me the market is wide open… these commodity is really needed, and wanted.

              You can be the first one on the Stock Exchange.. Selling love.. since in your reality is ”love” has body, made out of something than can be sent, than it can be bottled too. Than it can be manufactured, go to country where you can find cheap laborers like India.

              Please dont tell me anything about that subject again.

            16. M; It’s already in the OP – I do Not see that Scientology has created more successful people On Average (inside the CoS or outside) than the non-scientologists I learned to know really well (beyond the social veneer). There must be a reason. What I do see is that scientologists tend to be more introspective (“Oh my God, I must be PTS”, “Oh, I’ve probably restimulated some earlier overts”, “I need to get my ethics in”, “I feel out ruds”, “Maybe it’s Out-Int?”…). These are my observations. If you have solid scientific data backing up the efficacy of Scientology creating anything close to a Homo Novis, OT or more successful or happy human beings on average, then I am all ears.

            17. Okay, Geir, I got it better. I have no scientific data either but I tell you honestly, my experience has been different, at least in my earlier years in Scn. In general, the Scientologists I knew seemed to have a certain quality that’s hard to describe except maybe to say they seemed more there, brighter. I remember I always found it amazing that I could usually tell whether a person was a Scientologist, especially if they had had auditing, from one who wasn’t or was a new Scientologist.

              Since I got out of the SO, I have had little contact with Scientologists, in or out of the CoS, so I can’t really compare them to how it used to be. But it’s quite possible that they could be overly introspective as you say – even Independents were vitually all in the CoS previously or are involved with people who were in the CoS and are quite likely to have retained the beingness of that culture. IMO, this is too complicated a scene to be able to draw easy conclusions

              Another factor that occurred to me as regards your personal experience is that you are probably involved with non-Scientologists who are of a higher caliber than the average person, and that would not be a good cross section of the population to compare with the Scientologists you know.

            18. Why should I expect a Scientologist not to be on par with an average employee in the business world?

              Also, in the early days, did that hard-to-describe quality manifest itself in any measurable way in their lives?

            19. I was considering whether the non-Scn employees or other non-Scn’ists you know or knew were in fact average. As I said, maybe you interact with a higher caliber of people than a true cross section of the population.

              Yes, to answer you question about my experience with Scientologists. They had a higher comm level, less comm lag, and were higher toned. Even their “look” was different – non-Scn’ists had a more massy look to their faces. Again, I’m speaking in general. You could always find exceptions to the rule both ways.

            20. What kind of measurements, for example? How much money they made or…?

            21. The only measurements I know of that might be considered scientific would be IQ and OCA tests, which does increase along with Scn services.

              Back to what you said about Scn’ists being more introspective – in case I wasn’t clear, it seems to me that it would more likely be a result of the instilled CoS culture than of auditing. That’s the cleared cannibal syndrome sort of in reverse. A group think or group beingness contagion of aberration. It’s the kind of thing that gets handled on the South African Rundown, for example – i.e. cultural aberration.

            22. Here’s an interesting observation: The correlation between the OCA score and ability in a workplace is much lower with scientologists than with non-scientologists. Also IQ scores with the test done in the church would improve no matter what the person was doing in between the first and the second and the third tests.

            23. Geir, you stated that you yourself “have experienced some very valuable and MEASURABLE [my caps] results from Scientology”. You also said that the sorry scene of Scn is “partly due to the horrendously flawed admin tech”. To me, it takes very little effort to see a correlation between the culture brought about by management and the various outpoints in Scientologists, including the tendency towards introspection. By contrast, to “suspect” that tendency to be related to the tech is rather a stretch, and not like you to be that complex in your thinking. And the fact that you still consider this whole matter to be an enigma you can’t reconcile indicates, to me, that you yourself are not convinced by your own reasoning. Just my 2 cents.

            24. To “suspect” is not a conclusion. You understood that correctly. Read my next blog post for the sequel in my progress.

          2. Marildi, If one’s attention is introverted and fixed on oneself then one is not looking mindfully. So that practice should be questioned.

            In most cases of introversion one is digging in one’s mind and speculating to find the cause. That goes against the practice of mindfulness.

            When the right process has not been used and wrong processes have been run the case gets restimulated and more introverted.

            “Out-creating” is another one of those buzz words that do not resolve any issues. They rather make one sweep the issues under the carpet.

            How does one go about out-creating one’s issues? I would like to know that.


    4. Sheesh. People keep saying I’m bashing scientology.


      There are many good ideas. There are ALSO mind control techniques that are fucking evil. I’ve listed the good ideas I see, and the mind control I see to the point of redundancy.

      And the people here just snark on and on with name calling a-plenty. The “Hallmark” of a Scientologist according to Marty Rathbun.

      He’s right.


      GOOD. ON. HIM.

      TODAY, I pointed out that Scientology unlike any other religion, gives a person the ability to create their own mythology along their time track. Deep memories of meaning whether or not they are true. That’s a POWERFUL unique selling point.

      And it was ignored.

      Only Vin, THIS BLOGS OFFICIAL WHIPPING BOY noticed it.

      Now if you excuse me…

      I have to go be Batman now.

        1. LOL

          Perfect example of all the pots calling the kettles black on this thread. 🙂

        2. I meant “Perfect SATIRE of all the pots calling the kettles black on this thread.” 😉

    5. Hmm. As a kid you could lucid dream at will? For entertainment you were a role-playing nerd that could mock up worlds in rich detail? You had a strong interest in astrophysics from a young age?

      It seems to me such a kid would get a clear cognition on just about anything that allowed for a mastery level of being.

      I would bet on it anyway.

      1. Kata
        I am a little less on the blog now but read your recent comments! LIKE them! LOVE your humour! So much for now, carry on! Sure me will respond later!

    6. I thought the following Policy Letter was pretty good:


      “Thus we find the flaw in all our actions to be the failure to separate out the truly basic important actions and instead engaging upon trivial complexities…”

      This whole policy letter is pretty good.


  36. It seems that people feel threatened that their reality would be unmocked, so they attack whoever they feel is threatening their reality.


    1. Vin…. katageek mentioned bats flying about Austin Texas and I would like to add that it seems Florida has lots of parrots.. you say over and over and over the same things…

    2. Vin -“It seems that people feel threatened that their reality would be unmocked, so they attack whoever they feel is threatening their reality.”
      I would rephrase that as from my viewpoint as:
      It seems like I feel threatened that my reality would be unmocked, and feel that others attack me whenever I feel that’s it’s threatening to others reality.
      Whirling, I know!!!

      1. Good one Dee, that is how I see it too. It seems that was the reason katageek continualy put scientology down and Vin do the same because if scientology would be right than ZEN cant be the right path… for Vin, if auditing works than his therory dont..

  37. Geir
    There is a sentence in the Jason Beghe interview…if it really “sinks”, well….
    he says: ” I invested so much into something which is basically empty”.
    At a superficial level it can sound like money, energy, time, interest…little deeper the method….even deeper are the illusions….he did not explain it but
    it could be seen on his face that he felt it in his guts…it was quite a confession.
    I like him for several reasons, one of which is that it is “visible” that his “core personality” is stably there, never changing, shining through in its simplicity, warmth and strenght.

    1. MT– Re: Jason Beghe interview. His interview in Hamburg was exactly what I felt, saw and experienced in 2011 at Flag. I was truly amazed.

  38. Geir as you know there is no such a thing as past or future. there is no track and the recall is not a recall but created at that moment. Only energy is there and the rest is built on that energy. Reality is that past recall is a brand new creation in that moment. If one looks at that reality than one never can say: I never loved or I will never love: but only one thing remains “I love” and that is NOW.

      1. than why the need for solution.. ? for what? Again you have very good reality what one can see, what incradible changes gains, experience one can have in sessions, how one session can bring on new reality viewpoint which can change how one see the world. … So there is value in auditing and f… the rest.. And you right thos who had very little, they do the PT’s bit, the O/W thing, pointing out everything they dont like that the source is SP and the rest of the shit. Little knowledge causes lot of harm.
        I remember when I have finished HQS cource I thought I knew everything and the rest of the population were all low life stupid idiots.. And look at me now… hehehe Most of the time I am on idiot.. just picking through the window.. One has to know a lot to understand how limited ones knowledge really is.

        1. I will reiterate the abilities I want:

          1. I want to go exterior with full perception at will.
          2. I want to retain my full memory between lifetimes.
          3. I want to be Batman

          And unless you can tell me which book I have on my bedside table right now, you do not have a solution to #1.

          1. You and I been around this subject about 2 years back. Yes I still believe that I have the salution. More sessions I have had more I realised by now I am on the right track and auditing works.
            When I read that first time, i went into your room.. I seen the cover, opened the book and all the pages and the cover were blank.. I felt loss. Big time.. and I went into sessions.. I have seen reasons, why I could not read and there were dozens of reasons.. but i will not write all of them down. I have two reasons, first i dont believe you will believe me… second, there were way to much-many reasons existing blocking my view- and 3rd I have not finnished.

            1. No, I cant tell you… I cant ”see”and there are reasons for that.. I hope before I drop this body I will advence that far.. to be able to do something like that. Oddly I can pick it up when there is a raccoon in the garden, or the pair of crows arrive outside and they dont make any noise or I dont have to SEE them with eyes and I know they are there and because of these things already there happening I know there are layers needed to be taken off before I can “see” something which has DEAD energy.. since the birds and the raccoons energy is alive-living it is easier to experience. to pick up and to ”see”
              There is a huge difference between a living life enegy than dead energy which is not moving like the books. Please play fair..

          2. Geir, can you please clarify:

            Exterior to what?
            Your body? Your mind? Yourself? The cosmos?

            Or do you simply wish to remotely view with visual / sensual acuity identical to what you currently experience through association with the body mechanisms?

            1. Exterior to my body – with full perceptions – freely flying around – fully there.

            2. MT… fantastic question!!! love it…
              Its like this one can only want something if it existing… I too believe it it can be done and I am willing to search till I find what I want..

            3. Look up the original OT levels,OT 5 specifically works on exteriorization.

              This may not suit your desire to fly, so you augment that by studying up on astral travel or leaving the body. That’s what they call it online. There’s lots of exercises. They all have varying results for different people.

              Could be great fun working on this!

            4. Maria…Maria beside what you have written there is of course broom sticks, and nose twitching.. it works for some folks.. But so far I am doing very well in the exteriorization department so I remain with the method which brought results. I know it do not bring overnight results but my universe was not created overnight either.. there is lot to be examined ..
              PS if you have time and you are up to it could you locate some references on broom sticks? Interesting item.

            5. Oh come on Elizabeth! Where’s the fun in that? LOL!

              Besides, the broomsticks weren’t the “active ingredient” that caused the flying, it was the “witch’s brew” of hallucinogenic herbals that catapulted them out of their bodies! Got any belladonna or henbane? Course, all this witch nonsense was black PR, a smear campaign to get rid of the people who just wouldn’t get with the program of going to Church and being obedient to the Preists.

              These days you need a medical degree to give people belladonna — it is now called atropine, and has been used as an anesthetic ever since they figured out how to extract it from the plants. And damned if there aren’t lots of reports of flying out of the body on an operating table!

            6. I did not know about belladona.. thanks for the info.
              But I know about witches., they were real, and i know the head witch, My sister Ava has track longer than the standing of the MEST. She did the old OT levels same as I have and we found our reasons to be together.. We been in power strogle for a very long time…She still is powerful as a human… by the way she dropped scientology soon as she finished her OT7.
              she only went in to do it in order to know what I was doing hehehe..
              Sometimes she still say I am a witch…

            7. Thanks Maria! So it really is “witch’s brew’em”, not “witch’s broom”!

              Lost tech again, and as usual due to those damn transcriptionists who can’t seem to get anything right!

              Here’s a great song but it’s not the best version – just the only version I could find on Youtube. “Feast of Stephen” by Mike Heron:

              When winter came this year she found me well prepared for her
              The flame well fed with pine, shuttered windows oakwood doors
              From the low dales come the fiddler, gave his tunes their flight
              Don’t know her name or the dance that became her so well
              From topmost limb of night’s dark tree
              Tonight my lantern light floats free
              The ladies danced so well, the ladies danced so light
              But it was not mortal step drew me from my guests to meet the night
              Snow lies deep with friends unseen
              I will light my eyes to Venus green
              Holding my life with a hope
              When the midnight skies rise,
              She flies—

  39. Marildi……”The position of the person would, of course, be determined by the amount of free theta with which he was endowed and the percentage of that theta which had become entheta.” (Science of Survival)”” Let me point out that the above is crap..
    NO one can be given theta, is is not something one receives like at the bread line.. It can not be measured, it has no size, no shape, no weight, or color… Intengible . Some of LRH’s saying should not be repeated and spread as holy gospel.

    1. Elizabeth
      ” I love ” and that is NOW. Yes!! But what you write….”noone can be given theta..” THAT is false!!! However it is intangible, it is still a very pure, fine “energy” which can be “sent” and “received” – my reality and you cannot convince me otherwise….it is there and can be created from “outside” mest.

        1. Elizabeth
          “pack, sell, manufacture…” no idea why you are using these words….
          There IS this pure “energy” (in scio theta) which is THERE and can be sent and received – I am sending it to you now…

  40. The feeling of certainty that “I know it” is the most insidious trap of all. Taken to extreme it becomes “I know it all.”

    The idea, which then comes rescue is the idea of “UNKNOWABLE.”


  41. My own Scientology enigma comes about when I compare my previously held opinions when I was a Scientologist to my more newly formed opinions. An example would be with regards to KSW, one of Hubbard’s many comments on the IQs of unbelievers such as psychologists is that they “cannot assimilate straight Scientology.” These people are objectifies with adjectives such as stupid, open-minded, low IQ, and so forth.

    I find this to be “code” for anyone who refuses to apply the 10 pts of KSW in the most severe manner. I can tell when this is happening, when I am in the presence of a true believer because once firmly ensconced in KSW, they can no longer understand any other point of view. By this I don’t mean that they simply disagree with non-believers; they literally cannot understand how anyone else can think differently than through the filter of KSW.

    1. “By this I don’t mean that they simply disagree with non-believers; they literally cannot understand how anyone else can think differently than through the filter of KSW.”

      Living life out of a religious filter is like trying to navigate out of a kaleidoscope.

      Pretty. But not so functional.


    1. Scientology produces great meaning, amazing cognitions and a powerful personal mythology that crosses millions of years. It also produces an over-inflated sense of change based on experiences HAD rather than abilities PROVED. And in most cases creates a decrease in social savvy and real world competence for its followers in circles outside its influence.

    2. Geir Isene experienced all those meanings, cognitions and personal mythology and was one of the 20% or so that didn’t decrease in real world competence (using the 80/20 rule).

    1. katageek
      the above post is one man assumption who never has experienced the benefits of confronting as in session.
      your assumption conjecture guesswork speculation thoughts which are aligned with your reality and they are no more or less.
      In earlier remark-post you have mentioned that nothing but SHIT come out of scientology –bridge-auditing.
      So I can see you talk both side of your mouth I believe called that ‘turn coat’ too and that is because reading materials never have given that reader in this case you the experience.. so go on do some more assumption.. much as you like but that still will be assumption and not facts…

      1. “In earlier remark-post you have mentioned that nothing but SHIT come out of scientology –bridge-auditing.”

        Please out me now. Reveal the comment.

  43. I find reviewing Korzybski’s materials, in particular his “structural differential” model, helpful for getting more traction on this enigma.

    Here is an extremely brief explanation of the model:

    This is a very short description of it:

    This is a short description with known flaws delineated:

    This is Korzybski’s original paper on the rationale behind “structural differential,” which started out being called an “anthropometer.”

  44. Geir… before one can fly one needs to find out Why One Cannot Fly? The same goes for Seeing without use of the eyes,
    What were the reasons and why one has given up seeing? Just because one changes ones mind and say now”” I want to see what is in somebodies counter top in the kitchen”” that Chaning of one mind will not erase all those millions of blocks one put there for having privacy and those blocks which were postulated to be private works both ways holds one back from seeing, flying, etc..

    1. Isene
      I agree with Elizabeth here. That was a question I asked you earlier that you didn’t answer. “Why do you think you cannot fly?” Also I read Maria’s comment – OT5 stuff. So you have 2 tools. Please report when you have become re-conscious of your ability!

      1. I don’t think Geir sees himself as being here running this blog in order to answer our questions.

        1. oh.. but she is a teacher… therefore she know how to aske questions and she demands the answers and we are grated too..

          1. Elizabeth
            If in your your reality one can only know for sure what one creates (that’s what you said) – and cannot know another’s reality – than what you are writing above is YOUR reality! THOSE TWO LINES ARE YOUR CREATIONS! Look at them in session – your items! (re-occuring)… of course, do as you like!

            1. you are boring…. go communicate with V…. you two have lot in common..

  45. Elizabeth
    NO. Now I say NO! Very patiently and with enough power! You devaluated the OT levels, saying that’s just 1% ! You cannot know of anybody on any level how much knowingness-ability-power one has there! You played the game of auditing thousands of hours…that was your choice! And it’s true and valid only for You!

    1. and you dont know enough to comment on the subject..if fact you dont even know 1% so get off my back once and for all.. your comments are stupid? how is that. and when i find a better word will email it.

    2. Elizabeth
      Also… you say “go and communicate with V ( Valkov? Vinaire? -who?)
      You started talking with Valkov about me being a teacher…so YOU have a common topic! Also a lot with Vinaire! SO: I know it’s a game!
      But I “get” your “flow” – and now turning it back to you!

      1. Whenever, just whenever you say something untrue – as you did, I will stop it! It’s an instant decision! If Geir says I should leave for that, I will! I GOT BORED with you not talking straight!!! I STOP anybody believing that it should take so much time to BE CONSCIOUS of native state as it did for you! THAT time you mentioned much earlier may have prevented people from re-starting auditing again despite you saying that they should go back to session! Also: I am what I am. Let it be my problem!

        1. i made a mistake about the native state.. idefenetaly i am not, I am a low life you are in the native state. and you right my words are not in line…

      2. oh lovely, but you need to improve your aim, it was very poor, your powerful anger landed in Russia… please be more careful… lots of people got hurt and that was not Ok. it was not a responsible action by you.. and here I am in BC Canad not even a singed hair…
        But I have my OT cloak, and my handy reflactive shield ..and of couse the gods all of them are at my side!! I am really in with the gods!!!

  46. Geir has a very valid viewpoint. Most people, including myself, stuck with the pursuit of Scientology because of our belief(s) that at least some of the OT powers (as described by Ron from the basic books, lectures, etc pre-1954-1955 ish) could be at least partly attainable.

    The realisation that the whole thing is a fcking illusion is definitely a “downer”.

    Any attempts to deny that or to run away from it, resisting it, avoiding it, will simply enable the fcking pain to persist even more.

    Let’s acknowledge the fact that most of the promised OT EP descriptions are not very helpful and that the whole bridge is really an unfair stretch of the proven workable stuff that has already been published in COHA and D55 – I will probably change my viewpoint after the 9th American but I’m keeping my expectation low as to insure myself of any possibility of disappointment.

    There is a lot of good stuff within the Knowledge of Scientology. The data within the 9th American ACC is really blowing my mind, even though I haven’t even finished it. The order I took was – intro, then the last lecture, and then back and forth and so on in my own order but the knowledge was really life changing for me. COHA, D55 and the 9th American ACC really has changed my life.

    What I see as the biggest benefits of Scientology are:

    Practising the art of originating thoughts and communications

    Having awareness of one’s own machinery and patterns

    Having great games to play – both the auditing, studying, training and admin

    Terminals and objective interactions to play with with other-determinisms

    Pan-determinism – of one’s own attitudes, thoughts, behaviours, beliefs, viewpoints

    Expansion of one’s imagination and creativity – being wild and free again

    Study tech – it has many flaws compared with the rigour of formal textual criticism but it ain’t too bad

    Confronting, as-ising and admiration

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