Scientology: The two primary motivations

  1. To help oneself
  2. To help others

These are the two primary motivations of a scientologist. Most scientologists are recruited via #1. Most scientologists stay because of #2.

Scientology may deliver excellent results to individuals, but it does not deliver what it promises (Clear, OT). Some cling to the hope that it may some day deliver on its promises, but most people get the drift and leave – though it may take a while due to family ties or difficult social situations.

The church knows that it cannot deliver on its promises. Thus the bait is switched into exploiting the motivation to help others. Utilizing whatever benefits the individual may have gotten in Scientology into hooking the person on the benefit it may have for others. The person may view himself as a difficult or different case and that others will understand and benefit better from Scientology.

Failing to help oneself via Scientology, scientologists may cling to the hope that the church will help others through its social betterment programs. These programs are far and away and only reported through over-the-top false PR during the international Scientology events. And the scientologist may continue to believe that his time and money is best donated to the church. And as the church harshly penalizes listening to any criticism of itself and decries any independent research, the parishioner is left clueless – continually bombarded by the internal church PR.

It amazes me that I often hear a person, after reading a critical book on Scientology, raising the question of why scientologists remain in the fold. It does put such books in a bad light as a book on Scientology surely should be able to answer such a basic question. The answer lies in the above.

217 thoughts on “Scientology: The two primary motivations

    1. Hi there Rafael 🙂 🙂 🙂 good to see you!
      there was one more reason for some to enter into scientology: to alter and to destroy and they have done a very good job of it.
      Unfortunately few speaks of this fact because this fact is put down as ”fears of LRH, his delusions, his fancy his aberrations” which he never audited out confronted.
      and I believe those BP was spread by those who have done that great job… and the same people are now still at it… posting on every SC. blog and telling that it was a big lie, and the Tech never worked and we are victims of a flim-flam man.. and that too is a lie same as the rest. But the supervises are still in high positions same as they were before… they command attention.

      1. Dear Elizabeth Hamre, it is always a pleasure to have communication with you.
        About the third reason you mention I guess it is not a significant factor, really. The existence of supresives joining scientology to get audited or trained is a bad argument that even LRH disregarded in his sp tech ( see the references on it on the study and sp course tapes ), this third reason is just a kind of service facsimile the hard core scientologists use to get into the victim valence.

        1. Dear Rafael Sanchez Nunez it is always a pleasure to have communication with you also.
          I wonder what are the difference of the third reason I have written why they get into scientology and the two reason this post is written about: In my reality ALL reasons are the motivators people do things.
          To you Geirs Isene’s reasons are :brilliant, the reason I mention you put down as a victim valance… I believe no matter what any person does they are in a valance to do that.
          Since any doing-ness is a Being-ness, by human considerations Example : I am on auditor, I am a husband, I am a girl, etc…
          Now dear Rafael Sanchez Nunez since you hit me on the nose with ‘’look up some stuff’’ with that pointing out that I am wrong, I hit you with something which you cant look up: When you have minimum 50 thousand hours of solo auditing under your belt and few hundred thousands of cognitions than maybe we can compare notes what are service facsimile, what are valances and what is judging and most of all what is the difference between one doing-ness or the next or the next etc.. etc.. etc..
          Why I write those amount of auditing hours needed??? because by than you will have some reality where I am coming from and Rafael I am tired of being hit on the nose by those who know the tech verbatim but don’t have reality what it takes to solo audit. .. period.
          I recommend you to read my last 10 post.. but those are cognitions I wonder what you will call those. I know you write what is your reality, but please allow mine also to stand. Because the 3rd point to is valid.

            1. Rafael It was I who used the big too I realized that you also write your reality as you think and I have taken it as a HIT… by now when I have SENSE ANY REACTION I Have to Look around in space see who was the one who were stimulated and I am not always doing that yet since the Stimulation was not mine but to on Entity who shares or I share With? Either way was handled. Thank you for understanding. 🙂

        2. I wonder if you realise how in reality how the PLANET AND THE UNIVERSE IS CLEARED??
          I DONT BELIEVE YOU DO OR ANY ONE IN THIS BLOGS WHO READ HERE INCLUDING THE AUDITORS: SO HERE IS A TAKE ON AUDITING AND WHAT COGNITIONS ARE AND DO.[ posted in the south African blog too]
          While the cognition is in progress the cogniter as-is a huge amount of energy-mass and that mass is replaced by unaltered different reality which is without mass the is the :TRUTH.
          But at the same time as the cognition-new realization happens that new realization releases also those persons too who were connected to that incident and not just the person who is having the realization but every Spiritual Being = Entities at the same time and these persons –Beings -entities dont have the body and they can be on any location in the Universe. [Entities -Spiritual Beings do not have location only MASS_ENERGY HAS THAT.
          The Realizations ”travel” as Telepathic communication therefore there is no boundary which can bar the pure form of truth out.
          This is what happens in sessions and so far few realises its GREAT IMPORTANCE!!!!.. The same time while one person has a session since that person is operating in the SPIRITUAL UNIVERSE WHERE THE COMMUNICATION HAPPENS TELEPATHICLY while this person who is having a session at the same time on the same subject many other beings [without the body] are having the same session and HAVING THE SAME COGNITIONS TOO![ can be millions in number]
          Also while the person is taking a course at the same time these FREE BEINGS [ who don’t have the body] are taking the same courses!!!!! and if it is the course how to become a auditor or a C/S’s these beings to become on auditor and C/S’s the same time.
          Difficult to comprehend such a reality? NO, not if one becomes a SOLO AUDITOR and continue auditing not only the self created universe but audits every concept what ever exist in ones reality and also give sessions to countless other beings with or without the body through these sessions-confrontations and becomes aware of different reality different level of understanding will open up and with that different Universes come to view.
          The PLANET DO NOT GET CLEARED BY AUDITING people one by one : CLEARING THE PLANET [ as in wholesale] happens at the same times because the FREE BEINGS[ don’t have the body] getting the auditing too.
          WE, THOSE OF US WHO HAVE DONE THE OT LEVELS and NOT’s have audited millions of beings-Entities and these Entities were called by LRH as BT’s, and when group called Clusters.
          LRH feared these BEING but that was his problem his ARC-B’s, which he should have handled in session, but that is beside the point here.
          <COGNITIONS ARE VITALY IMPORTANT because they as-is the mass and because they don't contain energy = but are PURE THETA =truth and that pure theta=truth can penetrate any mass, any object since it is pure undiluted-unaltered is superior to any other existing considerations-thoughts therefore over rides those.
          COGNITIONS do SPREAD, boundaries can not hold them back, they go outside of this planet and interestingly items, beliefs is confronted in other time –other place those cognitions clear those places in the Universe.
          How do I know this? I have audited 10's of thousands of hours and in my reality nothing is impossible to achieve since barriers only exist if the considerations=thoughts=agreements are in existence, those are the postulates, the very walls of prison to the person who put them. I have erased my barriers.. Thank you. Elizabeth Hamre.

          1. …yes..when ‘one’ theta releases or as-is-es a piece of mass, energy, it has a ‘wholesale’ effect…
            …each of us is free theta in the core of our being…
            …this theta has the power to release and as-is mass-energy….
            when it happens, it ‘raises’ theta wholesale…due to this ‘rise’,
            beingnesses-doingnesses change wholesale…

            yes..one can be aware of that this is so in case of the beings
            one has been/is connected to, in com with…that there is Change…
            and also, because these beings start to do something differently
            and they are connected to ‘not known’ by one beings, the change
            of doingnesses affect those beings too….

            …the way i see it at present, when ‘one’ changes, the ‘One=Whole’ changes…

            1. Rafael FEAR is a very big issue and every Human on this planet have it.. I have researched this in thousands of solo session hours.. I will post here some of my thoughts on fear # 1 FEAR…. hehehe.. lets have game..its great value..

              I thought I have realized by now what FEAR is… that by now I have seen all the viewpoints about that considerations..
              But again I have been wrong….good to be wrong that lives room for learning-new understanding.
              Fear as a sensation: is stimulating, a motivator brings on inspiration and excitement, stirs -moves one into action, and thought-provoking: people-humans want that and have the need the constant requirement for stimulation in order to FEEL BEING ALIVE-LIVING and Fear supply that constant daily dosage….
              Fear is a built in automatic thing a gadget an invisible machine which supplies that constant energy which keep the nerves rattling all the time.. keeps one in constant state of alert… That one must hang on to things not to lose those valuables like: body-life.. Belongings.. Possessions
              The game is bringing on the FEAR: example: End of the World: let’s have some terror anxiety worry horror shock panic. Hehehe…
              FEAR is glue keeps one in the MEST…beautiful creation-consideration…

            2. #2 importance..important… value=FEAR
              Important, having importance, making something important is done by “thinking and believing” those possessions which we own have value..and they do have value..!! simply because we say so..
              The value is agreed upon assigned reality and there is no more to what ”value” is.
              Example: 1 carat perfect diamond in the jewelry store is about $ 40000.00 that value exist the value because the diamonds value is controlled by the cartel in fact that diamonds true value is $200.00
              Well… important: having importance and value: believing in those thoughts, holds those belief in space forever and a day… or till confronted.

              Example having life= believing that body is the self and the self only exist long as the body exist.
              Living= continual creation+ one believes that there is past and future.
              Being somebody=recognised and agreed upon bunch of considerations what is existence, what is being somebody, usually means what that being is Doing: I am a doctor, I am a gardener. NO those are not the Theta but doing-ness.
              Owing things to which ”having value or important ” is assigned with those considerations established one automatically has GAINED FEAR = fear exist because there is worry it might be that important valuable object will become lost or stolen and that important thing.. persons somehow will disappear.. and therefor that valuable persons or items wont be wont among our possessions=havingness..

              Fear only exist because the thought is attached to a items which can be anything including body -person that is valuable=important.. one can’t do without because life is not worth living if one dont own it, have it!
              When one confronts the compounded considerations-agreements galore: why one holds the universe so valuable and important and why those consideration of ”value–importance” were attached to some beliefs and solid items than these values-importance’s will melt away and at the same times and the “fear to will be evaporate for ever”.
              Value.. Importance is same as Beauty which only exist in the eyes of the beholder.
              Confront anything important, look into why something is held so valuable-important and in that moment of confrontation the meanings will erase- vanish.
              That is a good indicator that you have believed that Illusion are real and on the other hand If you are happy contented playing the MEST games.
              BUT by all means do not give up the your valuable-important considerations because without them you wont have a game….

            3. #3 Fear -what is….just how valuable you think MEST is? Cognition: one only has worries, have fears terrors, one dreads and have anxiety about the future, any upcoming events happenings if there is value importance of losing something is there, in the presence of that event…

              Just think about what one fears most: Losing things which one feels is has importance and needed for the the continuum of the bodies survival in the MEST Universe: like the body, fear of old age, of illness, death, loss of beloved partner, children, loss of memory, to lose a job, loss of one’s shelter, income, one’s ability to provide for the body, not being accepted into the ‘’RIGHT Circles where one can gain, not being acknowledged for ones accomplishments: that is on indication of lose, not invited by the “right “ people of importance: one would not gain some value than, what to wear, what to eat has great importance-values, how one looks, what ones knows has huge value.

              Each persons has fear accordance what that person hold “valuable”: fear of cars, airplanes: possibility of an accident, floods, fire, because of that one must have all sort of insurance, even one makes a contract with marriage license so the person who is considered very valuable is tied down: have to remain.

              The Fear of not being trusted is very heavy, being attacked, left alone, there is fear not having enough to eat, drink, etc…

              To lists what one fears would be impossible to compile it would be too long and would not accomplish ones goal to erase ones fear.
              But one can audit out in session the “values”, what one holds valuable and why: what and who made one to believe those items-considerations has value-importance. That works and it’s the confrontations of such a list gives powerful sessions and the cognitions just pour in like water in the tropical down pour.

              When those reasons, considerations assumptions are confronted in session and as-ised than fear simply vanish from ones universe..

              The assigned power to things and to others, that they are better are valuable therefore their hold importance and needed toward ones survival when those considerations are erased fear to will vanish from ones universe.

              Of course one must confront first of all what one “LOVES “the most since those things holds the most value and the possibility of their loss causes the greatest fear.
              I have blown-erased value from my universe about 13-14 years back..
              I do have understanding what is fear but no reality how that feels like.

              PS:
              Now I understand that major cognition which I have called ” Walk over” or walk out of the MEST U. into the Spiritual Universe meant to me.
              In that sessions I have erased the last remaining items from My Own Universe: the last voluble items were confronted therefore I no longer have had “things” to lose consequently I could leave without looking back at MEST.

            4. I dont think he feared so much the BT.and Clusters but the Overts which hunted him …and he still had some of those beauties under his skin. There is nothing to fear in the Universe because in the Universe only things existing which you put there or agreed to be there. Now if a monster I was in LRH reality hehehe which he feared than that existed. People fear unknown..

            5. Dear Elizabeth Hamre, yes you are right, people fear the unknown may be because this stuff can hit you back somehow. And about overts, well, any of us feel unrestful if charged with them. An let me say that your cognitions on fear are a good food for the spirit 🙂

        3. Manual for Creating a New Universe….how to build one.
          The Cognitions not only erases the confronted present time beliefs the person have: which is how the person sees, understands and experiences their own universe but: THESE COGNITIONS ARE NOW THE NEW INSIGHT they are the FIRST VISIONS –IMAGEs and these VISIONS IMAGES ARE THE VERY FIRST EXPERIENCES “””THE BULDING BLOCKS”””which are the NEW FAUNDATION for THE NEW UNIVERSE the person creating for Self and for others and this New Universe now founded and established on the TRUTH.
          The cognitions are pure unaltered and immune to outside influence, that means they cant be altered simply because they are not made of energy-mass.

          1. …my experience too…this is what the Change is about which we can experience in our every day lives…adding to it that in my
            reality not only the cognitions matter…more like the free energy
            …that free energy when ‘flowing’ can trigger Change…in this way
            no ‘self-images’ are created, but this free energy is creating a
            new ‘image’ for/in the ‘Whole’…

            1. Marianne “””cognitions hold no energy””, they are not made of mass like other understandings of other teachings’-dogmas because cognitions are not altered, teachings travel by from person to person and they are handled=
              not duplicated correctly: but only by their own reality on the matter and these persons repeats the already mis-duplicated to others what they have ”learned” but a little differently as the original was, that is adding-altering and it is made of mass of energy. Cognitions do not float since they dont contain energy only ”matter can float.

            2. elizabeth
              thanks for your answer
              i wrote ‘not only the cognitions matter’ ‘more like the free energy’
              the two are distinct…. please read my comment again if you like

            3. M T… I reread it the first time… in fact I usually re-read every post more than once, the reason is for that I have great difficulty relating to realities of the human race…sounds crazy? not when one steps out of being human.
              I still say the same as I had before, and yes the universe do not stand but the energies continually shift and the THOUGHTS-CONSIDERATIONS are ALTERED= influenced by other thoughts and that is the change. “”my reality of course”

            4. EH

              ‘sounds crazy’ ? not at all… realities by their nature are different,
              very much or slightly…were they completely the same, can we talk
              about ‘reality’ as such then?
              thank you for reading my coms !

            5. MT… right you are… reality can not be established between two Entities, only they can come to ”Agreement” on something and that ”agreement wont change their original understandin-reality that still remains very different to each but on agreement to me simply means “what ever you say it is OK by me.”” allowing beingness.

        4. Dear Rafael… Here is one you might understand where I am coming from , Crossing-Over. leaving the illusions of the Solid MEST Universe behind, knowing that we are Eternal.
          I can’t recall, have no idea of the topic this session was about, but the end realization transported me from the solidity: from this Universe into the Spiritual Universe.
          Suddenly I have found myself bodiless [of course] beside an old boulder which was bathed in light. I perceived the boulder in holographic: I could see the smallest deeps on its surface, every molecule of the boulder was visible to me inside and outside to the tiniest detail and seen ancients moss covering too lovingly draped itself over the boulder: like lovers holding each other in embrace for eons. the boulder was alive-living existing forever changing!
          My attention was on the stone and I realized that the boulder represented had a significance, great meaning which was: life itself as I have known that till now and the boulders solidity which was on illusion represented the physical universe and from out of that universe, the MEST, I just have walked out.
          Looking back into the distance where I have emerged from was darkness and that darkness was lifeless and held no life, it was void of life-force and it had a name: death.
          My attention was drawn away from the ‘’past’ and I become aware of void, void which had no beginning and no end, and was empty, totally empty since I seen nothing and sensed nothing as I experienced that vacuum.
          Than my attention was pulled toward on energy to my right and there was shimmering mist, mist which contained all the colours of crushed diamond dust which I call life-force, creative energy and that energy was dipped -infused in the mystery of opaque which was the future itself, the yet to be..
          And I was pulled by this incredible phenomenon: I was mesmerized: this mist was so incredibly alive, it rolled, moved within in its own boundaries I have realized there was someone within in but I did not know who was that entity and I felt tremendous affinity emanated from the mist: It was drawing me to melt into, to become one.
          But I also I realized that I needed to step into that void and experience and truly understand its meaning and that was my next step; My cognition was: the void I have created have become what is by as-ising the MEST Universe. By understanding that I turned my attention away from the mist and I moved forward the void and as I did, I felt no fear since I have left fear far behind me in the dark, in the past.
          In that moment as I let go stepped -floated into the void that step taken by me again had a significance: regaining trust in self and the same moment I have given up the last uncertainties
          As I flowed in to the void unafraid and as I experienced with that I acknowledged that great void that empty state in totality where I was nothing nobody yet aware in the fullest sense. Than the mist moved in surrounded me folded me up in its invisible arms and I have heard music, a most beautiful music, it was a waltz to which the soul can only ascend.
          As the music and brilliant yet opaque formless mist held me we dance over and we filled that void with life-force, we swirled, flowed and floated in space of our own endlessness creation.
          To the total harmony of the universe which was the music as we continued our dance as we flowed: happiness, the joy infused the universe than slowly the mist dissipated: I existed I was that void, yet not empty.
          As the music melted away and so were the surrounding significances and suddenly over the starless translucent dark blue velvet space an intense brilliant shimmering rainbow appeared and held the universe suspended.
          I knew I was home.
          PS: when I reconnected to the body: tears were rolling down a sobs heaved the chest, and I have realized, had a cognition about what is my role, my future in the universe, that was yet to come..
          Elizabeth solo auditor.

    2. I should have said ”some of these people”… In My Reality those who are against and spreading the negatives now can reach more people because the internet and spreading the negative made easy-unchecked and they sure work hard to destroy everything.

      1. Dear Elizabeth Hamre, the good parts of the scientology tech could be made available outside the abusive and cultish scientology philosophy, as a psychotherapy, with great benefit for most of the interested persons. And btw, the internet is doing just that in a natural and gradual process.

        1. I am very aware that auditing is being delivered outside of the church. I am glad you are too aware of this fact. Are you being audited or doing solo auditing? Please let me know so I could cheer you on!

          1. Elizabeth; Ypu missed Rafael’s subtle but brilliant point. It is not the matter of auditing being delivered outside the confines of the Church. What Rafael said was: “…made available outside the abusive and cultish scientology PHILOSOPHY”. (caps are mine)

  1. “Most scientologists stay because of #2” (to help others).

    Geir, how do you know that “most” stay for that reason? For many of us, it was because we got such amazing results. And in spite of all the criticism that can be leveled at the tech – to this day, I still don’t know of any other practice that can deliver comparable results in a comparably short period of time. Do you? That point of view is especially the case for those who did auditor training and observed great results on their pc’s as well.

    Admittedly, I don’t have statistics to be able to say “most” of those who stayed fit into the above description – it’s just my personal experience on the different flows. But I’m not the one saying “most.” 😉

    “Some cling to the hope that it may some day deliver on its promises.”

    Others, who had similar gains with the tech to what you had (or even much less than that), were more than happy with what they got. Their primary interest was never really in attaining paranormal powers, for example. Just the fact that their spiritual awareness and abilities in life were greatly increased was not only what they had wanted but was highly satisfying and fulfilling for them.

    As for your take on the church, I would have to agree. Nevertheless, the above still stands. That’s my 2 cents.

    1. I say “most” based on around 2000 hours of research and direct communication with ca 1000 (ex)scientologists.

      Beyond this, it is a fact that Scientology has never delivered on its premises of a Clear per Dianetics MSMH or an Operating Thetan.

      1. Okay. I was objecting to the flat-out statement of “most” with no qualification. I think you should at least say something like, “based on my personal research.” Even if that research was extensive, there are unknown factors about it, such as what your sources were, i.e. they were sites that mainly draw posts from critics. Etc.

        But how about my other question: To this day, in spite of all the criticism that can be leveled at the tech, I still don’t know of any other practice that can deliver comparable results in a comparably short period of time. Do you?

            1. Well, there is no evidence that I can find anywhere that lend any credit to Scientology. Do you have access to any evidence supporting the workability of Scientology anywhere in any context?

            2. Oh, but here’s lots of anecdotal evidence – and apparently from a cross section of the population, too. As I’ve said before, it isn’t that I don’t think your method can achieve comparable results to lower Bridge auditing – for some people. In other words, I don’t know that it would work for nearly as high as a percentage of people as auditing does.

              On the other hand, in agreement with your approach is this quote by Victor Frankle in his book *Man’s Search for Meaning* (written in 2006):

              “Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.”
              .

              And here’s the amazing thing – look at how markedly similar the above is to what LRH wrote in *Advanced Procedure and Axioms* (written in 1951):

              “…a mechanism interposed in the cycle of stimulus-response restimulation which demonstrates that:

              “WHEREAS SURFACE OBSERVATION SAYS THAT RESTIMULATION CAN OCCUR, DEEPER STUDY SHOWS THAT AN INTERIM STEP OF SELF-DETERMINISM IS NECESSARY FOR ANY RESTIMULATION TO TAKE PLACE.

              “Man is so aberrated at this date that it took considerable processing to discover this interim factor. And to discover that the interim factor is far more important than the mechanism of restimulation and that restimulation ceases by picking up the inner postulate between a source of restimulation and being restimulated.”

              “The extent of free choice is remarkable. The amount a case can be improved by self-determinism processing is even more remarkable.” (AP&A)
              .

              Incredible similarity, isn’t it? Actually, they’re saying the same thing in almost the same words.

              Basically, it would seem that per LRH, “case can be improved” just by recognizing that “interim step – or, in Frankle’s terms, “the power to choose” lies in that “space between stimulus and response.”

            3. If coerced anecdotal evidence is what passes for evidence these days, we are surely treading swampy grounds. And if we continue down that road of discussion, then the anecdotal evidence for the workability of meditation, yoga, christian salvation or prayers of different kinds outweighs any enforced anecdotal evidence from Scientology by a factor of at least a thousand. So, the workability of scientology – even by a shoddy standard for evidence – is very much in dispute.

            4. For some reason, you seem to refuse to recognize the tremendous changes that occurred over the years in the CoS under the direction of Miscavige – even though your own personal experience as late as the 1980’s didn’t require “coerced evidence,’ per your own account. Honestly, Geir, it you come across sometimes like you have some sort of ax to grind and/or do not have your usual clear vision

            5. The anecdotal evidence even early in Scientology would be in dispute due to the policies requiring the parishioners to write success stories at the end of any action. But even if we disregarded that fact, the anecdotal evidence supporting Scientology’s workability is completely dwarfed by anecdotal evidence from all other larger religions. So – on what evidence do you base your claim that there are no better methods out there than Scientology?

            6. “The anecdotal evidence even early in Scientology would be in dispute due to the policies requiring the parishioners to write success stories at the end of any action.”

              Geir, you’re still presenting a specious argument – when you KNOW better. Yes, the point you make could have applied to some people, but back in the day it wasn’t true for me and it wasn’t true for YOU and others we both knew. So it still seems like the gentleman doth over-protest – but why??

              Also, you’ve altered what I said, which was that ”I still DON’T KNOW OF any other practice that can deliver comparable results in a comparably short period of time. Do you?” It wasn’t a rhetorical question, actually.

              So are you now saying that meditation (or anything else) does get comparable gain in comparable time for the majority of those who practice it? To my way of thinking, if that were the case the word would have spread by now – like it did in Scientology. But if you have sources for what you say, I would be interested.

            7. Let’s backtrack:

              You asked: “I still don’t know of any other practice that can deliver comparable results in a comparably short period of time. Do you?”

              I answered: “Yes I do. My blog post “Your life”.”

              Then you said: “That seems like another comment not back up by any substantial evidence.”

              So – you started asking for evidence. And you cannot supply any real evidence for your original claim that you don’t know any method more workable – yet you criticize my statement on the basis of lack of evidence. Odd.

              But – I give you this – my proposed approach is the summary of all the approaches that lean the same way – meditation, yoga, prayers, TRs, mindfulness. And in that regard, my statement relies on far more evidence than one can muster for the case of Scientology.

              I believe Scientology to be the most over-claimed and under-proven methodology of the mind in human history. Don’t you think?

              Mind you – we are (since you added the need for evidence into the discussion) not discussing mine or your own personal opinions on the efficacy of Scientology here.

            8. “So – you started asking for evidence. And you cannot supply any real evidence for your original claim that you don’t know any method more workable – yet you criticize my statement on the basis of lack of evidence. Odd.

              Not quite accurate, my dear Geir. I wasn’t making any kind of CLAIM – I was just telling you the IMPRESSION I have based on my personal experience as well as that of others I’ve known. And when you said there was no evidence for what I was saying, only then did I say that there was a lot of anecdotal evidence.

              And neither was it a “claim” to state that I DON’T KNOW OF anything that compares. On the other hand, it seemed to me that you were actually the one making claims – thus, I asked for your sources.

              I’ve never heard of even anecdotal evidence of any other practice which would indicate that it compares to Scientology in terms of a similar amount of gain IN a similar period of time. That’s the question I’m still asking. What do you know about that?

            9. My answer pointing to my blog post was on par with your claim – whether you call it a claim or not – it was on par. So, no need to ask for more evidence from me than you would be able to give for your own.

              But since you ask for anecdotal evidence for other practices – I have heard and seen plenty of anecdotal evidence from other religions that would put Scientology to shame both in magnitude and speed of gains. Take instant healing by touch, reviving people from the dead, walking on water, parting a sea, feeding 5000 people almost instantly – the list goes on, and that is only from one book – the biggest best seller of all times. Want me to dig for crazy-spectacular wins on the Net that would make Scientology anecdotal evidence microscopic in comparison?

            10. Are you talking about Jesus and Moses? My question would be, what do the majority of Christians gain in as short a time as, say, several days of Life Repair?

              And no, crazy spectacular wins wasn’t what I was talking about – I just want to know if you’ve come across any other practice that compares with Scientology as stated above – i.e. gives a similar amount of gain in a similarly short period of time and for the great majority who engage in it. And if so, what is the source of that data? That’s all I’m asking.

            11. Hold it – the great majority of Scientologist quit Scientology. Actually, the vast majority quit. So you may want to rephrase the question to “do you know of any other practice that, if you discount all the coerced anecdotal evidence, help the same percentage or more of the people who engage in it as Scientology”.

              I would say it would be hard to beat the gain reported by people who report to have been “saved by jesus” in the instant they gave their full trust in Him. It is reported as truly life changing and instant gain orders of magnitude above days with Life Repair. So, yes I believe I can answer “yes” to your question – at least going by the criteria of anecdotal evidence.

            12. “…the great majority of Scientologist quit Scientology.”

              Sorry, I made it clear that I was talking about the delivery of Scientology back in the 80’s or earlier – and I mean actual delivery, not “booted off for reasons best known to God and Registrars.”

              As for being “saved by Jesus” with life-changing wins, even though that may be spectacular (and I don’t doubt it), I wonder what percentage of people do achieve such wins. Do you think it’s the majority, and in a short period of time?

            13. From what I have seen pretty close up, it is a larger percentage of people joining comparable size christian cults in Norway than the people reporting half that gain/time from Scientology (in the 80s).

            14. From what I have seen pretty close up, it is a larger percentage of people joining comparable size christian cults in Norway

              “…than the people reporting half that gain/time from Scientology.”

              Dropped out time.

              But I need to sign off anyway. Talk to you tomorrow? Have a good night.

            15. Not dropping out time at all: Gain/time means gain per time. So more gain per the time you indicated. Clear?

              So bottom line is – I have experienced more people raving about their “salvation” from Christ when joining some of the minor Christian cults in Norway than I have seen people coming into the cult of Scientology reporting similar (or even half the) gains. So – going purely by anecdotal evidence, one should chose one of these “hallelujah” Christian cults.

              Now this may shed some light on why I think anecdotal evidence is a shoddy standard for this discussion. And Scientology has nothing but coerced anecdotal evidence to show for its efficacy.

            16. Geir: “Not dropping out time at all: Gain/time means gain per time. So more gain per the time you indicated.”

              That’s not the appropriate definition of “time” used in the outpoint “dropped time.” Here’s a quote from Data Series 18:

              “Time that should be noted and isn’t would be an outpoint of “dropped time.” It is a special case of an omitted datum. Dropped time has a peculiarly ferocious effect that adds up to utter lunacy.
              […]

              “A summary report of a situation containing events strung over half a year without saying so can provoke a reaction not in keeping with the current scene.”

              The above is something you are consistently guilty of. And it’s an illogic! Illogical by any standard. And it has been pointed out to you numerous times, but you continue to do it. That’s why it seems to me like you have some sort of ax to grind.

              My basic point is just this: I think you know as well as I do that the tech (auditing and training) that you experienced in the ’80’s was not at all what it gradually evolved into. Yet you choose to continue to make statements like the following (in the above post):

              “And Scientology has nothing but coerced anecdotal evidence to show for its efficacy.”

              “…nothing but…” That’s false – and I think you know it! You made that statement earlier in the thread – and even though I suggested that you yourself were never “coerced” regarding your gains, that comment of mine was ignored and you now repeat the one above again.

              It’s hard to have a discussion with you when you seem to be less than ingenuous. Correct me where you think I’m mistaken.

            17. The point is that Scientology’s anecdotal evidence is REQUIRED by all parishioners. That doesn’t mean they are false, but it does put the anecdotal evidence in dispute. Apart from that, an as I have pointed out, there are more powerful gains in larger percentages from certain Christian denominations than Scientology could show up from its invention and up until the 80s. And as you well know, Scientology has NO OTHER evidence for its workability. And that, my dear, it’s my main point.

            18. Geir: “…there are more powerful gains in larger percentages from certain Christian denominations than Scientology could show up from its invention and up until the 80s.”

              The omitted datum there is that in spite of the supposed “larger percentages,” the actual numbers must be rather small – or it seems to me the world would have heard about it, with the internet and all. When Scientology was in its heyday, the number of satisfied participants was in the thousands at least – maybe tens of thousands. I would have to research the actual figures, but I’m pretty sure it was much larger than the minor Christian cults of Norway.

              Geir: “And as you well know, Scientology has NO OTHER evidence for its workability.”

              Maybe not, but as YOU well know, it IS highly workable based on your own personal experience and attestations – right here on your blog. So I still say it is “odd” 😉 that you take the negative stance you do at times. In other words, you’ve never reconciled the two extremes in viewpoint that you alternative express. And THAT is my main point.

            19. Not at all. The Christian denominations I am talking about were easily in the teens of thousands just in Norway. And there were never more than 200 scientologists in Norway.

              You and I may believe that Scientology is highly workable, but you and I are dwarfed by the many more you and Is of many other cults. Any way you look at EVIDENCE in regards to Scientology, it is clearly not in favour of Scientology no matter what time period you care to look at. So if you want to defend Scientology, you would do better to leave the word EVIDENCE out of future discussions.

            20. Geir: “The Christian denominations I am talking about were easily in the teens of thousands just in Norway. And there were never more than 200 scientologists in Norway.”

              “Were” in the tens of thousands? With a majority having life-changing wins? First of all, you are again dropping out time on the “were.” Does that mean over a period of years, or what? And secondly, are you now also extending the claim to outside of Norway, as regards a majority (higher than in Scientology) having life changing wins?

              Geir: “You and I may believe that Scientology is highly workable, but you and I are dwarfed by the many more you and Is of many other cults.”

              Another generality – what other cults? And where did this datum come from? Earlier, with regard to the Norway cults, you stated it was from your own experience, and you limited it to Christian cults in Norway – and compared them to Scientology in Norway, a far different scene that in the US, for example. You wrote:

              “I have experienced more people raving about their ‘salvation’ from Christ when joining some of the minor Christian cults in Norway than I have seen people coming into the cult of Scientology reporting similar (or even half the) gains.”

              As for your last paragraph, that was my main point – that you yourself consider Scientology to be highly workable! Yet you talk as if you don’t know that. It’s crazy to me that you would use the data from elsewhere, from both in and out of Scientology, to try to make the point that there’s no evidence of its workability – whereas, you KNOW that it is workable, from your own personal experience.

            21. Firstly, my knowingness constitute No Evidence for anybody else than me.

              Secondly, my item experience of what Scientology did for the people I know is statistically quite horrid – see: https://isene.me/2013/07/28/scientology-positive-negative/ The people I know from some of the very hallelujah Christian cults In Norway seem to have a much higher gain rate. And yes, also as I compare my own expetiences early on, in the 80s.

            22. “whereas, you KNOW that it is workable, from your own personal experience.” Understanding change in one’s personal psyche, and understanding how that change occurs, how it develops, how it triggers, should be a benefit and a result of any personal path of improvement – sincerely walked. You cannot fix the problems with Scientology for others by proselytizing others, or arguing losing arguments about the same. But you can use what you know to help yourself understand these things if you try.

            23. ++++10 for Marildi, there are many who had auditing and were greatly helped when their problems were addressed in session and eliminated, I am one of them: after the head on collision I was told I be with collapsed spine in wheelchair in a few years. Never happened, and I even thought my self to read and write and I am able to communicate with words too…doing very well and there are no problems with walking either. thank you Marildi.

            24. M… Geir said he has talked to 1000 scientologist.. but it seems that number was not balanced out.. with another 1000 who had nothing but gains. It seems the 1000 he has connected were playing out the old Victim game, lets blame.
              I truly believe if any person really want to help self out of some crap they will find the way … the means to do that and those beings who have done just that were not just scientologist. But In my case the auditing tech was used.

            25. I don’t think it’s possible to find 1000 scientologists who honestly had nothing but gains. Finding 1000 that had huge losses wasn’t very hard.

            26. Hehehe… what percentage the was the ”drama” what what percentage acted like victims, and I never ever buy being a victim of something Geir in my reality no matter how bad things can be one can turn that around and come out as a winner.
              And I have a question here all the lovely victims were chained to what ever? Where they held there by force, they could not think for self[[please dont mention hypnosis, or brainwashing! ] [ I believe Valkov mentioned on imaginary trap a shadow of bars which is used by the fisherman in Africa they herd[ not sure of spelling] fish that way.
              Stupidity, not thinking for self, not using good judgement, and now they dont want to look ”stupid”=ignorant they all say it is the churches fault.. well.. Out of 1000 the churches fault could be some yes, but not all 1000. bullshit smells, and to be a victim always was fashionable. I know I am too full of shit, and that is Ok if someone gets mad at me… but blame never ever gotten any one out of any situation, only TAKING RESPONSIBILITY AND ACCEPTING THE CONDITION ONE IS IN OR WAS IN WILL MOVE THE PERSON FORWARD. 🙂

            27. Taking your line of reasoning just one step further would lead one to conclude that Nazism was an overall highly workable system and that the people of Auswitz complaining were just acting as victims. And that acting as victims would almost Prove the workability of Nazism, wouldn’t it?

            28. That is what you think I said.. that is your reality not mine I wonder how come that you have not recommended to those 1000 people interviewed SO WHAT ? FUCK -IT… To Me your attitude is more like what you “””ASSUME “” mine is. You blowing hot and cold cant make up your mind what is right or what is wrong….

            29. I just comment on what you write. Your reactions and drama is yours alone.

              As for the results from my recent coaching, you can read the references on my LinkedIn profile.

            30. being a Hungarian we have as our heritage the ability to the use of flowery expressions, describe things with great flair, not drama: just ability. we are not the cool collected Nordic group. but hot flowing like lava. and some of us even have more fire in their bloomers than others have:)

            31. Drama if you see drama as on stage acted out in something play and you hear I the words spoken or listening to peoples complain or talking of their happiness-joy : how you understand that is not the same as it was put out by those people. This is the most difficult to comprehend [ and dont read into this that I have reality about you are ignorant or stupid in any ways] but never less difficult to understand that what is written and what one reads is 100 percent different. Drama is what you believe is and to me is different altogether!

            32. I asked this question from Chris which was mistake on my part. I ask you here because you have experience with e-meter’s needle action. and if you dont know the answer inquire for the answer from one of your CL 12 C/ S auditor. Here is a question for you. What State is attained when the E-meter no longer register shows any needle movement, regardless what the question is given to the person who is holding the cans. Not even F/N or F/T. when the can holding person is attesting? The meter is in perfect order and the auditor who is supervising the can holder is CL 12 auditor and CL 12 C/S? hehehe care to guess?

            33. I guess you would have no difficulty, then, in finding a large portion of my posts rife with emotions, indignation, drama, CAPS and EXCLAMATION MARKS!!!!!

              😉

            34. 🙂 I am off to make Pizella real fantastic stuff, and we are having a magnificent day and wish you the same! Could you find the answer to my question? Now that too would be fantastic.. !

            35. This week I was watching the energy phases from an off-grid hybrid solar inverter on my oscilloscope. Without load, all three phases were sitting there squirming and looking like piles of spaghetti rather than neat and orderly sine waves as they would show when under load. And I thought, there’s a lesson in this for me in that I do better, look better, perform better, and appear to others more recognizable and sane when I am under load, pulling my own weight, and being active and creative than I do when I am idling. I hope that comment can appear as a sequitur in light of my comment above.

            36. haha well, I think you understand. It is hard to have sand kicked in one’s face, made a little bit better when we understand the bully. Sorry about the manual, didn’t think I’d get put on the spot for one!

            37. “I see you folks are having a cool day only 41C.. !!!”

              Almost! 100F about 40C here in my backyard. Cloudy and humid today after a brilliant thunderstorm and a nothing splatter of rain about midnight to 1 this morning. Lots of wind and dust!

            38. Sympathy never ever helped any one… giving sympathy is agreeing and agreeing is making it more solid– adding to that already permanent mass-of energy=considerations

            39. the person here has no need for hug for a very simple reason; just because she can white up not only her wins but her reality how she sees what is happening that do not mean she is depressed, feels down or out.
              In fact she feels down right terrific. we had here last night in the garden on epic battle between a very large mature male raccoon and a almost equally powerful male skunk. That was 2 am and the perfume from the skunk which was horridness permeated the house the neighbourhood and still lingering!!! he died in the battle! Here is a question for you. What State is attained when the E-meter no longer register shows any needle movement, regardless what the question is given to the person who is holding the cans. Not even F/N or F/T. when the can holding person is attesting? The meter is in perfect order and the auditor who is supervising the can holder is CL 12 auditor and CL 12 C/S? hehehe care to guess?

            40. go and do it…tell them to stand in line including your Sweetie and the Cat too and dole it out. Let ,e know the reaction! PS: you have not answered my question!!!

            41. We don’t need to exchange questions and answers anymore, Do we? I know you and you know me. Let’s just enjoy the companionship. More hugs.

            42. THAT is A HUGE ASSUMPTIONS! WOW.. WOW need to be brave very brave or ignorant, or know it all, mind reader, telepathic sharing, be in my shoes at all time, listening into every session I ever had, living my path-my track. being joined at the hip etc. etc. etc. to make such on assumption on your part.

            43. Chris I dont live alone if that what you believe, love is plentiful around here, I was given a gift of song tonight a group of beloved friends serenaded me!
              this morning we all had coffee in the garden as we sipped our brew and indulged in hot buttered sconces we watched as the first rays of sun covered everything with a transparent gold!

            44. PS: I should not asked that question that was not fair, since the CL 12 him self never seen anything like that before and he has audited many different persons since mid 70’s

            45. tell me how did you come to that conclusion? as I told V today when somebody is reading, or hearing someone’s communication they interpret what they have read or heard accordingly to their own reality how they understand those words . There is no way any one can duplicate the persons reality-understand what the person has written.

            46. I wholeheartedly disagree. Sympathy really can help another in my experience. But obliterated after I let my scientology guard down and let go of my belief that sympathy cannot possibly help.

            47. p.s.That should read “…the two extremes in viewpoint that you ALTERNATELY express.”

            48. They are not extremes at all. My point is clear and reiterated so many times, it should have sunk in by now.

              I have had gains from all I have done in Scientology. I believe I could have gotten this far by many other paths. Because any path is simply a catalyst for the person to Let Go. And defending the path, to worship the method, rather than focusing on the result is to put the cart before the horse.

              I realize through experience that this drives the die hard critic and the die hard defender nuts. But So What?

            49. It may very well be true that any path is simply a catalyst. But if you leave it at that, you are disregarding the other factor – the comparative workability of the different paths, for the majority of people. That’s what you gloss over. And that’s what lessens your credibility. Which is too bad!

            50. I am not glossing over anything. I challenged you to provide any evidence to support your claim that Scientology is more workable than other paths. So far toy have provided zero. I have given my own comparable experiences regarding anecdotal evidence at least. Are you able to come up with anything here?

              You see, all of the people here: https://isene.me/2013/07/28/scientology-positive-negative/ wrote fantastic success stories, even the ones that ended up in the psych ward. So, I reiterate, Scientology’s anecdotal evidence is suspect to say the least.

            51. Gotta go now, Geir. But I’ll reply to your last two comments tomorrow, and tear them to pieces! 😀

            52. Please do so with Evidence, will you? Time for you to put some real weight behind your relentless support of Scientology. No more conjectures, hand waving, circumstantial anecdotal puffery.

            53. Well, Geir, let’s both admit that there is no incontrovertible evidence for the workability of Scientology – or for any other spiritual or psychological practice. (Not that it isn’t possible to get objective evidence if actual research were to be done.)

              That said, consider for a moment your personal experiences. Like, for example, your Method 1 word clearing, where you got back your passion for the subject of physics – which you said had been lost. And note too that this is the kind of thing that is USUAL for an M-1 pc to achieve. So I ask you, where else does that kind of thing occur routinely, other than perhaps in isolated cases?

              And on the Communication Course – which probably took you a couple hours a day for a couple of weeks or so – didn’t you basically say that you went from a painfully shy kid, and one who practically fainted when required to stand up in front of the class, to one who was outgoing and easily able to speak in front of large groups?

              Another example that comes to mind is what you stated about OT III – that you regained your creativity!

              As for myself, my first two services were the Comm Course and Life Repair, and starting then I could see that there was a lot of truth in Scientology, an observation that continued with each of the steps I took on both sides of the Bridge. (And I don’t think you and I were special cases among those who received relatively standard tech.)

              Thus, to this day, when people are finding fault with LRH or Scientology, even though a lot of it is valid, I can’t just disregard what I KNOW. All it takes is to remember one of the sessions I had where the utter genius of the tech and its implicit understanding of the workings of the mind and the spirit were demonstrated to me – directly.

              The bottom line for me is this – I don’t place the lack of objective evidence (or even the preponderance of negative subjective evidence, if that’s the case) over my own direct observations. But then, I don’t have the consideration that objective evidence is a necessary requirement, and certainly not that it is senior to direct experience.

            54. All that is fine and well. But I find other people in other practice claiming incredible gains as well. And in bigger numbers. I mean, the number of people having been “saved by Jesus” or Mohammed mounts in the millions. And who are we to place our single examples above those that have experienced eternal salvation for themselves?

              As for evidence of workability – there is plenty of that for Cognitive Therapy and many other branches of psychology to name just one area. I wouldn’t be surprised to find ample research done also for Buddhism of various flavors.

              And since we have established that there are no known real evidence for the workability of Scientology, I can offer something at least a tad better for the approach I use in coaching people – references that were not a requirement for completing my services. Read my LinkedIn profile for that (although small in number, the percentage are much better than for the scientologists I personally know). So, I guess we got around to your initial comment on this specific sub-thread.

            55. Geir: “But I find other people in other practice claiming incredible gains as well. And in bigger numbers. I mean, the number of people having been ’saved by jesus’ or mohammed mounts in the millions.”

              In the above are vague generalities: “incredible gains,” “in bigger numbers,” “SAVED by Jesus or Mohammed.” And “in the millions” doesn’t state a percentage, which is one point I kept trying to make that you keep forgetting. However, all this is beside the point – you’re still focusing on others’ subjective views, and I thought we agreed that this isn’t evidence.

              Geir: “As for evidence of workability – there is plenty of that for Cognitive Therapy and many other branches of psychology to name just one area.”

              What evidence? Are we back again to anecdotes?

              As for the personal coaching you do, I’ll say again that there is no indication that this was of an average group of people.

              When you keep going back to ground already covered, we just go round in circles. That’s why, after I thought it out, I realized that the important thing for each of us – the thing most relevant – is what we have observed and experienced for ourselves. I think that is much wiser than putting oneself at the whim of “data” – ESPECIALLY when the data isn’t even objective.

            56. Remember, you started out asking for evidence. I have given you more than you could give for Scientology. I even gave you my count for what Scientology has done for the lives of the people I intimately know. You have given nothing in this discussion. Zilch. Zip. Zero.

              As for the research in the field of psychology, there are hundred of pages, thousands of research papers. Like this (obtained with a quick Google search): http://www.nrepp.samhsa.gov/cbt.aspx

            57. “Remember, you started out asking for evidence.”

              Yes, and I’ve already stated that I realized there really isn’t any “evidence” that you or I will accept as true evidence.

              Regarding the link you posted, just skimming over it I can see there are statements like this:

              “Self-help CBT-based materials were effective in treating mild to moderate anxiety or depressive disorders at posttreatment, but not at follow-up.”

              Have you read the whole thing, and if so can you give a summary or some pertinent quote(s)?

            58. I haven’t read the whole thing. But as I said – there are an enormous amount of evidence for workability (or lack of) for a wide range in psychology. There is of course also lots of raving praise from people, but that is another stack of anecdotal stuff. So, there is in fact evidence for workability of other methods. That was the whole point of my reply as you questioned that such even existed.

            59. I read more of the article you linked, and it seems that they are assessing the effectiveness of CBT when used on different types of patient issues. Here’s the concluding paragraph:

              “Overall, the effectiveness of CBT has been examined in patients with anxiety disorders more frequently than in patients with depressive disorders. Therefore, the efficacy of CBT in the treatment of anxiety disorders is more strongly supported than in the treatment of depressive disorders.”

              The phrases are comparative (“MORE strongly supported”) throughout the article.

              You say there’s an “enormous amount of evidence” for the workability of a wide range in psychology, but I haven’t seen any yet. Certainly not in comparison with Scientology. So again, I go back to something I KNOW works.

            60. Do some more Googling and you will find plenty of research papers, PHD papers and more with lots of statistical significant evidence. You questioned that it even existed. It exists in spades. Case closed.

            61. What I still don’t see – and you haven’t actually responded to – is that there is any practice that gets the type of results like those you yourself got in Scientology, which I gave specific examples of. And I mean such things (as the Method 1 gains) being the USUAL and EXPECTED result of some practice.

            62. Yes – there are in my example single-person examples that would match the examples you gave. The one’s I know is: Blogging (I have had several life-changing gains from blogging here that would compare to the examples you gave from my own involvement in Scientology. Another is “Partnering up with Brendan” – greater gains than lots of the gains I had from Scientology. Yet another is “having kids”. Or “doing tuff that scare you shitless” (for me: doing speeches, skydiving). Or simply “letting go” of stuff – and this is the one practice that has given me The Most Gain in life. By far. And the latter being verified by many people I have coached lately, which is why I write about it here.

            63. “Single person examples” aren’t a methodology or practice that can be used by people in general. Or at least they haven’t been shown to be – they’re just the isolated instances of your personal experience. As for “having kids,” or “doing stuff that scare you shitless” – again, no evidence of such things working for a “majority of people,” as I have repeatedly stated.

              “Letting go of stuff” is a more generally applicable, I would think – but does it give the kind of gains you got from M-1 or OT III and/or many other major actions in Scientology. I don’t see why you are so reluctant to admit it! Ridge, ridge, ridge.

              Can’t we get through a discussion without you getting testy and blaming it on me?

            64. First we need to get rid of the idea that Scientology is beneficial “to the majority of cases”. There is no evidence for this. In fact, my own experience tells me it has a Negative effect in the majority of cases. Not just unworkable, but destructive. So, what I am left with regarding Scientology is just single-person examples. Without any evidence other than my own experience, I reiterate that all the methods I have listed above produce better results On Average than Scientology per my own experience with people I know. And that is the sorry truth of it.

              As for my own practicing “letting go” – YES it has given me gains that have surpassed those gains you refer to that I have had in Scientology. It has relieved my life of practically all stress, given me a workable tool to use in any and all difficult situations, has improved my social skills a lot, has removed any fear of death, has given me back my true self, has given me a calm and harmonious life. So, the answer is a profound YES.

              As for this discussion; Look back at it. It is me answering your questions and you trying to poke holes in any way you can at what seem to be regarded as a threat to your world view. You defend by attacking. Now, when are you going to provide some substance other than this hack & slash (D&D terminology)?

            65. Look back at what I began the discussion with today, ending my comment with this:

              “The bottom line for me is this – I don’t place the lack of objective evidence (or even the preponderance of negative subjective evidence, if that’s the case) over my own direct observations. But then, I don’t have the consideration that objective evidence is a necessary requirement, and certainly not that it is senior to direct experience.”

              You were the one to insist on going back into discussing evidence, even though I already had stated the above.

              In any event, I’m sincerely happy for you that you have had such incredible gains using “letting go.” And if this is truly workable for a majority of people, I’m sure it will spread. I hope it does!

              Have a good night.

            66. It just seemed odd to me that you kept badgering me for evidence of other methodology that would be “truly workable for a majority of people” all the while you were not even interested in such evidence yourself.

              I don’t know of any practice yet that is truly workable for the majority of people. And I am still waiting for someone that can supply some form of reliable evidence that such exists. Scientology certainly does not fit the bill. If it did, it would have taken over the world long before Miscavige got hold of the helm.

              And yes, have a good night 🙂

            67. I like how you come through in the end. 🙂

              Well, you’re right – I did ask for evidence, but I realized during the discussion that it wasn’t really the relevant thing for me. (Hey, it’s a good sign to have a realization in a discussion. Right? 😉 ) And I also realized that despite research having been done, it would entail a lot of study to determine what actually was proven.

              Anyway, I think there are some independent Scientology practitioners that may yet provide evidence that the tech does work on a majority of people. Don’t forget – in the CoS, there were all those other factors injected for the apparent purpose of protecting the organization.

              Btw, I like your new avatar. Now how about a new theme? With this one, you sometimes have to go to the bottom of the comment, to see in small print who wrote it.

              Nightie night. 🙂

            68. “Can’t we get through a discussion without you getting testy and blaming it on me?” And finally, at the end of your dirty needle drill, you should clean it up, not just mess with Geir’s good humor and leave him hanging. That would be predictably bad form.

            69. Again I will point out that while I continue to provide plenty of substance to this discussion, you continue to provide nothing – except your incessantly trying to poke hole in what may seem like a challenge to your world view. When are you going to provide something else here than the same-old-same-old?

            70. What kind of substance are you talking about? I gave examples of what I was talking about with regard to Scientology gains.

            71. You backed up your attack, yes. But that was not what I was talking about. Do you have anything that amounts to evidence to give. Like the tally I have done with the scientologists I know? Or links to research for anything? Or a proposal for how to move forward with evidence? Or just… something other than this poking?

            72. Marildi: “As for the personal coaching you do, I’ll say again that there is no indication that this was of an average group of people.”

              Why do you say that?

            73. ++++++++++++++++++++ on that from Elizabeth who is not a very good with writing up things like you do. thanks again. I have no idea what evidence would satisfy Gear. but I know why I am not in wheelchair or committed suicide by now because could nor take it connected to a veggie body. .

            74. E., I think I finally get Geir’s viewpoint. He truly believes he was one of the lucky minority who had wins in Scn. This is based on what he has heard or read from many others. whose stories indicate that the majority of them did not do well in Scientology and that it was even destructive to them. I don’t doubt that this is what he found – although I think the majority of the pc’s of auditors outside the church, like David St. L., Dexter and many others are very much winning. And this includes Trey and others who are delivering standard tech.

              But what Geir is doing is totally fine – great, in fact. I’m sure he is very good at what he does. Scientology isn’t for everybody so it’s a good thing that there are a few people like Geir around who are effective at what they do to help.

            75. Marildi…
              Hurray for Geir, but I wonder why he would not accept that I had nothing but wins and want to convince me otherwise. I find that in really really bad form.
              The man has no reality that a Universe exist which is old as the Universe it self and that Universe is the Spiritual Universe and in that Universe all those Entities belong Who KNOW THEY ARE NOT BODIES, THEY ARE NOT MATTER, THEY NEVER DIE, and in this Universe belongs to those who believe in magical existence of Fairies, Little People Giants, Gnomes and even the Ogers [children believe in this universe because they were not educated out of this reality yet by the brainwashed adults]
              And definitely Hitler his beliefs and Stalin Etc.. and calculators, electric machinery, computer etc..etc.. do not belong and never had since these items and beliefs are the works of destructive forces a ENEGY -STIMULATION LOVING Groups.
              This group’s history in this Universe is not so long as one would think: I never recalled a cave man using a computer or had a calculator but they were known to communicate telepathically =by intention and so are all the animals do the same on this planet and even science has proved that and have become a fact.
              But Of Course I said the something here he wants PROOF. please… he is not insulting me but just resisting everything I believe in….By that he denies the existence of the Spiritual Universe.
              So Geir can help those who believe they need his help.. that will help them. but otherwise his awareness on spiritual level is nil… he is ignorant, and his ignorance for the person who puts after his name OT8[ to impress – good for the ego] is astounding and same goes for me when it come to the reality of calculators and computers, not my Universe I belong to the pages of Fairy Books…. I live in the garden and share the Universe with those who do not have the claim that they are solid.

              NOT THE BODY MAKES A HUMAN A HUMAN BUT THE BELIEFS they go by and I NO LONGER CLAIME and GO BY Those BELIEFS THEREGFORE I am NOT A HUMAN.

            76. Jeez, Elisabeth. What a string of nonsense.

              Listen mam and listen good;

              You write: “Hurray for Geir, but I wonder why he would not accept that I had nothing but wins and want to convince me otherwise.”

              Here’s my answer: I never rejected your belief that you had nothing but wins. And I never ever once try to convince you otherwise.

              As for the string of ad-homs and unfounded attacks. Just knock it off. You come across as a cry-baby.

            77. no attacks SIR ON MY PART JUST MY REALITY… and right you are I will knock it off. since dont make any difference what I write any ways. you right on that..yes this is your blog. erase my posts you have the control button.

            78. Goes the same for you for believing that you were attacked just because you have read different reality which not bathed you with admiration, just because not liked not agreed with it is not on attack but only different how you see your self and how some others see you. You are not use to be disagreed with , different reality-opinion-assumptions are not attack’s unless the reader beliefs that they were. People do not disagree with majority simply because: called ;Attacker, antagonistic, mean, nasty, They are locked out of the group, they are NOT POPULER,. To speak ones mind has many draw back hehehe.. most people dont dare… also there are those ”who are silent, hold back their opinions -beliefs. You have told many times to V… to answer the questions addressed to himand here you go ignore mine … why is that?

            79. I wasn’t referring to you having a different world view than me. That is all fine. Very fine. But the plain and obvious ad hom is what makes your comments shitty at times. Deal with it and drop that way of commenting.

            80. Elizabeth: “What State is attained when the E-meter no longer register shows any needle movement, regardless what the question is given to the person who is holding the cans…”

              I’m not sufficiently interested in the e-meter to collect an answer to that.

            81. “To speak ones mind has many draw back hehehe.. most people dont dare… also there are those ”who are silent, hold back t” their opinions -beliefs.”

              If you were a little less angry, mocking, and derogatory when commenting about the opinions of others then your ideas would be received better. It is not because you have a different point of view that you aren’t being applauded. It is because you aren’t friendly. That is one of the reasons that I should give you a hug.

            82. “If you were a little less angry, mocking, and derogatory when commenting about the opinions of others then your ideas would be received better. It is not because you have a different point of view that you aren’t being applauded. It is because you aren’t friendly.”

              You should take your own advice. For you, the only word I would change in the above is “responded to,” rather than “applauded,”

            83. But Chris wasn’t the one sobbing about lack of admiration for his comments. To write the way Elizabeth does and then being offended or not understand why people do not appreciate her comments much is a little strange.

            84. I know it is difficult to comprehend that what ever we see, we believe in how the other person is only our ASSUMPTION that is our formed opinion based on our own realities and that reality is not necessarily exist in the other persons universe. And that picture-belief what you have of me I cant change even if I would put my heart on the platter as of offering and beg you please believe me I am different than what you believe in. Cant be done from my side the change has to be on your side to see me differently.

            85. you mean by that I need to do something and than you or others in this blog would think of me a better person more likable and come more acceptable , and I would than to fit in within the boundaries of acceptable reality which was established by the group !
              that means going into agreements even if I dont agree, but if I would I would be causing ”less stimulation’ that means I let everything as is.. not causing change and be one of the group… think like the group.. behave like the group and forget my own beliefs.
              how about you take a bit of responsibility to fit into my beliefs? lets not think that I am the one who is out of the group [ but who has placed me there I ask?]
              By now I know that if one do not think same as the group, = or very similar, behaves as the group dictates go by the laws established by that group than that person is criticised, eliminated as a trouble maker, labeled is strange, antagonistic out of her mind, crazy, nasty mean. etc.. etc.. groups rarely accept different and never accept what they dont have reality on which of course is normal since cant accept what is not understood.

            86. no I dont.. I am not the cause of their belief, how to perceive me, that is their own reality based on their experiences in this universe.
              Now if we go back to the TRACK LIFE and our actions hehehe now all behavior is implanted so we all dabbled in implanting ”forcing others” into our way of thinking but if you would segregate each of these incidents than you would realize by having a cognition that to kill or to be killed both were forced reality and you have not killed or being killed but you have VIEWD THAT MOVIE and the movies content was that you were one of the characters in the movie. This is not just my reality based on examining confronting thousands of implanted material but this reality is the same who go at the distance and confronts ”Implant stations and same time the materials which are suggestions enforced with huge energy -mass= bang-you are now its true believer. There was a time while audited and erased -demolished immense amount of these implanted material with that I have come to my own conclusion that I was not the cause or the affect but just experienced and that is not the same.
              One can take responsibility for ones own experience and say belongs to me, but that again is claiming ownership and ”ownership” what is, again ,a very different cattle of fish. No, I am not responsible what others believe in.

            87. So, if you shout angrily at another, you are not in any way responsively for that person thinking of you as angry?
              If you lie to another, you bear no responsibility for him thinking that you are a liar?
              If you hit another, you are in no way responsible for his feelings or belief that you are violent?
              Am I still understanding you correctly?
              A stomped yes or no will do nicely.

            88. that will not do nicely.. since you asking for approval-agreement an what you have read on your vies- what you have read each person have they own view of their own universe.. as there are persons same amount of view on any given subject.. how you interpret what I have written that is your understanding.. sorry I will not debate track because you representing beliefs as on the planet what is now. there is no comparison

            89. I am asking simple questions and you won’t or can’t answer. Then do not throw a tantrum when others don’t answer your questions.

            90. Elizabeth, I appreciate – no, I love that you are happy in your life. Your wins and gains are yours to be had. Cherish them, let them continue to evolve you and may your life and beyond be filled with joy. May you also accept that others have different views and take dramatically different paths than you and that their paths may be equally valuable.

            91. thank you and I am aware that each persons path is different and that is fantastic since we can learn from their experiences. When comment on something that comment is to replace the one I made the comment on, or degraded in any ways it is just expressing my reality what I read into that comment. you see I live by my beliefs.. I know I assume and that assumption is mine only and that assumption is not the persons reality of self.
              I have learned a lot by reading posts and pulling reactions from others so, so far it has been a valuable experience.
              I have gained certainty while blogging: I have learned to keep to my guns regardless what losses I might have by not agreeing, had immense amount of realizations,
              Geir, to me blogging, posting= learning, confronting communications, making mistakes, making friends and knowing accepting to have enemies because the way I have expressed my beliefs, dishing it out and getting back on equal amount of crap has been in incredible valuable experience.
              Has been great fun and you are a wonderful host.
              I truly believe that without posting, blogging I would not have gained the realities I have..
              It was part of the education I needed on my path .it has not been on easy course.. but that made it valuable and I know I passed the test with flying colors.. not number, not levels but colors of the rainbow and that is good in my universe cant get any better. 🙂

            92. PS if in the future the mood will strike me to do a bit more ranting and raving: think of my post I just have written and act accordingly. Put on your boxing gloves order the popcorn for the lekers and lets go for a few rounds. but put in the teeth guard first you will need it my dear, I dont go by rules ! you been notified!

            93. expressing different realities TO SOME LIKE YOU MIGHT FEEL LIKE FIGHTING who rather sit in a lukewarm tub of water than having on icy shower after hot water shower [ challenge!] but spirited debate always been enjoyed by those who could do it and think of it as well this was a nice spicy dish… smack their lips and enjoy the afterglow.. in my case Haagen-Dazs
              Debate leads to different realities, gives motivation, forms friendships, gives respect for the knowledge others present and one truly can admire ones opponent for standing up, sticking to their belief by presenting theories why they believe in what they believe. Debating is on art has been done for long as spoken words were invented for communication.

            94. By the way Marildi is a great debater because she present evidence to back her point up and I present my cognitions because that is what I have.

            95. Marildi presents evidence to support her point? Really? Did you completely miss our latest debate. She freely admitted she had no evidence to back up her point and that she wasn’t even interested in evidence beyond her own personal observation.

            96. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH… so just how many times that has happened in the years she post in you blog? and no I did not have fallowed that debate. But you have forgotten to add any kind of comment on my lost post… please do so..

            97. about debate… by the way fighting is when one needs to win at any cost, by elimination and that happens by the use of force.. and I haven’t used that since I slapped my last husbands face so hard his glasses flew off and hit the wall. The SOB spent his day with his sweetie in a hotel room and I had the evidence! 🙂 not that was a violent debate… hehehe

            98. Bill was not responsible for my loss, what I have believed in how the marriage should be. and it was not. In his belief he it was ok to have all the outside extras We did not have the same ideas what is marriage was all about. There is no blame or regret on my part, it was on very good learning experience. t but you still did not ack-ed about the debate.

            99. No, let’s be accurate, Geir. I said there was no objective/scientific evidence. There is lots of subjective evidence.

              Here is some news I got in an email just today, from Doug Davidson’s group in British Columbia, Canada, and it includes news about Frankie and Mary Freeman’s group in the U.S. State of Idaho too:

              ————————-
              Here we are in beautiful Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, getting NOTs from two Class VIIIs who were both personally taught by LRH, Frankie and Mary Freeman. See Annette’s NOTs Completion Success Story below. You may have heard this before…… but REALLY every session is a wild adventure!

              Back home in our Academy, Observation Mountain Academy, supped by Dave Soroka, Doug has been on the Data Evaluator’s Course and Annette has been on Level 0 and Nora Curistan is on the Solo Course. Another student has joined us who has completed his Grades with Doug, attested to Clear, done the Sunshine Rundown and is also now on the Solo Course.

              Doug has a pc on Grade O, one on ARC Straightwire and two on repair programs. Doug is also now apprenticing under Frankie and Mary Freeman to deliver Solo II thru OT III.

              Everyone is winning, keyed out and making great progress. Here is another observation about being OUT – the affinity level between Scientologists is very high. Affinity flows easily, communication lively.

              Again the comparison between the Church and the Independent Field is miles apart. You’d think there were two diametrically opposed philosophies. The Churchies, suspicious, resentful, demanding – the Indies, happy, productive and fun loving. It is SO MUCH FUN. UPPER BRIDGE HERE WE ALL COME!!!

              Doug and Annette Davidson
              Supersmart.info
              observationmountainacademy.com
              douglydooright@yahoo.ca
              .
              [Half a dozen Success Stories were included here, and then Annette’s Success Story below.]

              Today I completed NOTs!!!!!! Case gone!! My space is clean! My expectations have been met and surpassed. My perceptions of the universe are clear and precise. I am not backing off, I am reaching There are so many differences in my universe that I don’t know how to articulate them – all fantastic. I’ve been on so many adventures in session all the way, so many funny situations and so many line charges.

              Everything is ok now. Really ok! The auditing that I got in the Church was efforty, disturbing, accusatory, made my space contract. Being in session with Frankie Freeman is exactly the opposite. He grants so much beingness and affinity that auditing is a pleasure rather than an apprehensive, nervous experience. Frankie knows exactly what to do at all times. I felt totally taken care of and SAFE in session.

              I am so grateful to Mary and Frankie for providing such a great, aesthetic space to be audited in. Thanks for being here and doing everything you do Mary and Frankie. You are the best!!

              Wherever you are Ron – I made it! And I’m going on! And I’m helping others to go free, too.

              Love,
              Annette Davidson
              ————————-

            100. An AGREEMENT…..from my bog …………………………..The Bank has to survive at any cost… and co-agreement insures that it stays intact. More agreement there is on any given subject that agreement insures that consideration, that belief to stay remain intact period.. to remain solidly in bedded and affective and that holds the spirit imprisoned.
              No wonder those who are different in any way are attacked-labeled and segregated by the group from the group and when that is achieved by the group than that group has the belief of course which is false belief that they have won…but their Victory is the Solidity: the boxed in condition.
              Because of the fear being a cast-out from the group only few who dares to go against those group agreements and the one’s who do dare to believe in different reality have that different reality well… they are the one who are fortunate winners….
              MORE AGREEMENT ONE COLLECTS ON SELF reality THAT ENSURES SOLIDITY.

            101. “Cant be done from my side the change has to be on your side to see me differently.”

              The reason I don’t agree with this is that a person changes their persona every moment that they are communicating. I see what you present to me, and you are fully capable of understanding that and doing something about that. If your angry outbursts “do not exist” or “do not matter,” then it won’t matter either if you put on a glad face and behave cordially either. The old saying is that we catch more bees with honey than with vinegar. I know, you aren’t trying to catch bees, but anyway . . . ! No one blogging here is anything like an enemy of the other, so why do we sometimes act like it? Can’t we just all get along?

            102. Elizaebeth: “…who puts after his name OT8[ to impress – good for the ego]”

              Me: Please point to one example among the thousands of posts and comments I have written where I do this.

            103. He should be pleased that someone like me who represent a different reality so many yearning to read about and knows from the gained cognitions because to gain different understanding that was the reason so many people went into the Cof S and so many now have huge losses because what it was promised was not delivered- not gained. !!!!!! SO please tell me Why NOW SO RESISTING A DIFFERENT REALITY which was attained by the use of TECHNOLOGY? IT SEEMS THERE IS A HUGE MU these ex scientologist have because they never really understood why they went into the church in the first place. What they wanted? A magic wand which erases all? What was their belief was end of the so called Imaginary Bridge? What is the NATIVE STATE can they define that state by their own reality? What kind of different believes were they looking for? hehehe.. I have found all the answers and those who care to read my reality please read my posts in my blog. Geir call me a DRAMA QUEEN… I have asked him a question and he has ignored it.. and that question if he could answer it would give prof of where I am at. But not as a Drama Queen.

            104. “He truly believes he was one of the lucky minority who had wins in Scn.”

              Nonsense. Aren’t you reading his commentary? He says that people immersed in ideologies win within the context of those ideologies. Which ideologies give wins? . . . All ideologies give wins which are all backed up by rave reviews of the adherents. If you do not believe this, that is another matter, but this all he has been saying about wins.

              On this thread he proposes that people get involved in Scientology to help and to be helped. And you know, I believe those motivations apply to ideologies in general regardless of category such as social, political, and religious.

            105. “– although I think the majority of the pc’s of auditors outside the church, like David St. L., Dexter and many others are very much winning. And this includes Trey and others who are delivering standard tech.”

              How many “independent” Scientologists do you suppose went on course and into session today, say in L.A.? . . . and elsewhere? I live in Maricopa County Arizona where there are 3,817,117 people and nearly 40% of them affiliated with a religious organization. This is 1.5 million religious people living within an hours drive of my home. Out of those 1.5 million people, I feel confident that so very close to zero of them went into session today that as a percentage, rounded it would be zero. Phoenix is the home of Scientology and of the first HASI (predecessor of IAS). One of LRH’s homes is preserved here and there is an empty Ideal Org 10 minutes drive from my home.

              People who participate in Scientology “win.” I do not contest this. But is there winning enough to counterbalance their drifting away? No. But of the 1.5 million religious people living around me, How many people do you suppose are winning at their churches? I think many of them are or they would not stay, is that reasonable to say?

              The indie Scientologists that you’ve mentioned are good men and women and some of them are my friends, and they are doing a good work and helping people who want to be helped in the way that they are offering to help. This is true enough and I do not contest it. I am just asking you why you think this is unique? I do not think it is unique.

            106. Where in my comment did I say it was unique? No where.

              However, my hunch is that it will grow, by word of mouth.

            107. It can be good to hold widely differing points of view serially or simultaneously. In Scientologese, we could call this pan-determinism.

            108. Forgot one part: “…a similar amount of gain IN a similar period of time AND FOR A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE.”

            109. ” . . . yet you criticize my statement on the basis of lack of evidence. Odd.”

              odd

              äd/

              adjective

              1.

              different from what is usual or expected; strange.

              Seriously?

            110. marildi

              ‘…it is a special case of omitted datum. Dropped time has a
              pecularly fericious effect that adds up to utter lunacy’

              Does it mean that when during processing a datum goes
              unnoticed and unobserved both by the auditor and the PC,
              it can have an effect on the outcome?

              Or citing Geir from his article (Processing…): ‘the person
              responsible for achieving a certain output must be able to
              mitigate unknown input’ ( i would here use ‘persons’ in the
              case of processing)

              I would also be interested in what the tool is for finding that
              omitted datum…is it in that reference or in another one?

            111. “Does it mean that when during processing a datum goes unnoticed and unobserved both by the auditor and the PC, it can have an effect on the outcome?”

              Hi Marianne. To answer your question, that quote I posted doesn’t actually apply to processing, although I think it could – particularly if the omitted datum were a withhold as that would result in a “missed withhold.” And, as you know, a missed withhold does have an effect on “the outcome.”

              I haven’t studied the Data Series policy letters very much, but from what I have read it is an incredible system. Here’s the definition that was given on a CoS site:

              “Data Series: a series of policy letters written by L. Ron Hubbard which deal with logic, illogic, proper evaluation of data and how to detect and handle the causes of good and bad situations within groups and organizations.”

              If you are highly interested in this topic, here’s a link for a Management Series volume that includes the original Data Series policy letters (I believe others were added in later editions of this volume): http://www.tep-online.info/laku/usa/reli/scien/SECRETDOX/MGMT_SERIES_1970-74.pdf

          1. ‘Your life’…you may have noticed that by helping your’self’ the
            Self as such may disappear…with that the ‘me-you’ too…what
            remains is LIFE…from that perception when one ‘gets back’
            to the human-life-reality, the ‘me’ and ‘you’ is seen as unique
            manifestations of Life….engaging in different coms, activities…as
            such when this newly discovered ‘me’ ‘helps’ ‘another’ ‘me’, it
            is actually Life helping Life, that is Itself….

      2. I agree with some tendency on motivation #2, but it’s just like internet memes and popular beliefs. I would say that many scientologists get into Scientology for wrong reasons and they stay for wrong reasons too. I.e. one gets into scn for healing a specific organic illness, a very wrong reason just like getting into it by swallowing the majority of the PR propaganda. Then, after getting to know a bit of how’s everything working, one stays by rationalizing more wrong reasons, reasons like ‘helping others’ while actually one is trying to help oneself. Is like confusing motivations, convincing oneself reassuringly, and being stubborn about it.
        So, people get trapped by itself as people is not-so-smart. All the rest is a bait-and-switch around it that exploits the social phenomena.
        One can appreciate the farthest mistake on scn as its philosophy and Tech pretends that we can rely too much on our own mind, lacking humility, pushing the limits, while properly scientific backgrounds teaches the opposite, that we cannot ultimately and completely trust our own mind or on ourselves by ourselves. The bait was on its philosophy from the very begining.

    1. You are correct, they are primary motivators … 100 percent. we do everything for self first and with that we affect others… but always self is first… cant be any other ways. 🙂

        1. Of course I am well, very well in did… is there some reason I should not be well? let me know why you are hopping that I am well? outside of we are having very poor summer all is well.

            1. 🙂 thank you… I loved living there! the first time was from dec. 56 till 57 may the 2nd. we were there as Hungarian refugees after the revolution. in 56.

    2. I’m very sure I’ve seen those two primary motivations very widely used by many gurus, some of them very weird and twisted people, some of them with some brilliancy within but twisted anyway. I don’t know if those two motivations are universal, but all of this gurus I’ve carefully observed, they reacted exploiting concepts of helping oneself and helping others on a desperating PR maneuver, sometimes relying everything on that. One can justify and rationalize anything using those two concepts, like using the altruism in insane ways. I may have a misanthropic viewpoint about this, but I don’t see primary motivations as virtues other than seeing deceitful and biased aspects of the human mind, more even with weak character and twisted backgrounds. In that sense, exploiting those ‘vulnerabilities’ even with a positive goal, as conveniently would be claimed, are always very suspicious and always there will be ‘a tail’ within, some sort of conflict. I’m very sure about it, as I’ve not seen evidence of the contrary so far, even with getting an open mind and not judging the future over any quantity of experiences from the past.
      If my point is not clear, I’m talking about fixed viewpoints over those two motivations as rules of life and everything, or fixations very commonly seen on twisted gurus. I.e, the first motivation is commonly exploited on self-helping marketing and any egoistic/soloistic technique, with anti-social influences on the extreme. The second motivations is commonly exploited by cults, gurus, corporations, governments, and any source that will told you how are you, what you need, what to do, who you are and who is the enemy: the ever needed scapegoat that works excellent in making sense to all.

        1. Thank you Geir, but I have to let you know that I’m not new. I used to participate sometimes sporadically, with different names. But now I sign with my FB account. I only appear in delicate subjects, or when an odd thing caught my attention.

  2. When I was a Scientologist, I KNEW everything…… or, at least the IMPORTANT things in life.
    I was CERTAIN, I had all the answers, where I came from, where I was going, why I was here, what I was, Who I was…….

    Scientology gave meaning to my life. Rich, beautiful meaning.

    Now that I´m not a Scientologist, I´m just an old sock who knows almost nothing and struggles to make ends meet.

    My life might be insignificant in this enormous universe which I´m not saving anymore………

    But now I am the one who is giving meaning to it.

  3. Scientology did not give new meaning to my ”life” but the church offered different items=tools for sale and I happen to like some of them and bought it.
    I have used this tool and by the use I have changed my life.

  4. thinking here: no teachings of any kind, no beliefs from any one, no Church of Scientology, or Buddhism can cause change in any ones life affect any ones beliefs unless that person is looking for teachings different meanings which would bring the desired change which that person is ready for.
    NO ONE CAN CHANGE ANY ONES BEIEFS… Force do not work.

  5. Geir

    In the vid (OT) you say ‘being something’ does not mean much
    to me…’ doing what is right for me to others and with others is
    that what matters’

    if it is true that what one can see (create) one can ‘be’ and what
    one can be one can ‘see’ (create) from this follows that whatever
    one is creating one is ‘being’ that

    if we look at the mutual results in coaching (like in sport, music
    …and all the others), to me it shows that you needed to ‘be’
    whatever turned up during coaching and also their results…based
    on the above….

    (being for me also means perceiving, penetrating, having knowingness about it….without any resistance, any attachment and as you say, doing…)

  6. Geir, by the way writing up wins when I was at ST Hill in 76 was not forced issue, since I did not wanted to write up mine I gotten a note from the C/S and the note said” the reason is that the person who just attested by writing up the cognitions ”puts it out” and that helps to stabilize that win for that person. that made sense to me than and still do… but it has the same causative action as giving sympathy to losers…solidifies ones beliefs..

      1. It seems At ST HiLL was not squirreling but applied tech and people were at ease those days. Even with OT 3 material since that was not my thing and I suffered with that crap finally the C/S sent me a note ‘”Jut pretend to a mock up, visualize and finish it off.”” C/S obviously known it was not real for every one. 🙂

  7. sympathy def. from the tech dict.

    3. sympathy is a co-flow, it’s sort of a co-beingness. One individual
    goes onto the wavelenght of another individual.

    The questions are: 1. Is the one who goes onto the wavelenght
    of another aware of it? 2. if yes, what is the person doing? or
    rather, what are both of them doing? Like get ‘stuck’ in the issue
    by continuous agreeing to it or by com get out of it?

    5. equal motion, equal plane, similar space

    The questions are the same as above.

    sympathy def. from TheFreeDictionary

    1. a relationship or an affinity between people or things which
    whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other.
    mutual understanding arising from this relationship or affinity
    2. the act of or a power of sharing the feelings of another

    The question is: is there com and doingness which are going
    to expand understanding and living?

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