I place on the top book shelf, albeit a notch below “Jonathan Livingston Seagull“, among books that has had deep impact on my views – the remarkable “Logicomix“.
An epic search for truth, through the eyes of Bertrand Russel rendered in an epic form. The blending of the foundational quest in mathematics and the aesthetics of great comic artwork. It is easy to understand why this book has been given awards across the boards – it presents deep concepts in an ingenious and simple way.
We are taken through the basic concepts of foundational logic – from Aristotle to the modern masters such as Bertrand Russel, Alfred North Whitehead, Ludwig Wittgenstein and Kurt Gödel.
The genius of Wittgenstein was news to me. He represents some fascinating insight into the foundations of so called reality and its limitations.
And the quest culminates with the profound realization og Gödel in his incompleteness theorems. I have covered this before, but a clearer summary of what I consider to be Man’s greatest intellectual achievement to date would be along these lines:
- If the system is consistent, it cannot be complete.
- The consistency of the axioms cannot be proven within the system.
Gödel’s first incompleteness theorem showed that a system of logic could not be both consistent and complete. According to the theorem, within every sufficiently powerful logical system, there exists a statement G that essentially reads, “The statement G cannot be proved.” Such a statement is a sort of Catch-22: if G is provable, then it is false, and the system is therefore inconsistent; and if G is not provable, then it is true, and the system is therefore incomplete.
Gödel’s second incompleteness theorem shows that no formal system extending basic arithmetic can be used to prove its own consistency. Thus, the statement “there are no contradictions in the system H” cannot be proven in system H unless there are contradictions in the system (in which case it can be proven both true and false).
This is precisely why the “the meaning of the world does not reside in the world“. Which in essence gives a foundation for free will.
147 thoughts on “A remarkable book”
“Which in essence gives a foundation for free will.”
I have no quarrel with free will as a belief. Neither do I stump for determinism. But I am not following the leap from Godel to a foundation for free will. This seems to summon the “God of the Gaps.”
I did say “a foundation for”, not a logical bridge. Just like Planet Earth is a foundation for Man; Earth does not necessitate Man.
We’re on the same page. I am trying but I cannot grasp something so enormous as a “set of universe.” If I say it’s everything, then I’ve generated another tautology. If I’ve understood your point, then my abstraction goes in two directions.
Possibly what we know of the universe can be a subset of a yet greater superset of universe with the material that we know inside and something greater or divine outside. This model makes Godel’s work (I think.)
The other way is that the universe is everything seen and unseen and Godel’s Theorems work for subsets of everything. I still anticipate the Divine but my concept is through immanence, more than transcendence.
It doesn’t matter how large you make the set. It still remains that it is either incomplete or inconsistent. The quest for consistency will never be complete. Which begs the question; What is ultimately outside everything – something that that can be both consistent and inconsistent, at will perhaps?
Geir: “Which begs the question; What is ultimately outside everything – something that that can be both consistent and inconsistent, at will perhaps?
I think LRH had essentially the same viewpoint but expressed it in terms of “to be or not to be, at will,” as essential to being self-determined – i.e. essential to having free will (emphasis in bold is mine):
“A terminal is, in essence, any point of no form or any form or dimension from which energy can flow or by which energy can be received. A viewpoint then, is a sort of terminal, but a terminal must have a particle in order to do automatic interchanges and one finds that a viewpoint can be affected by the MEST universe only when the viewpoint has identified itself with some MEST universe article, such as a body. The rehabilitation of the viewpoint’s ability TO BE, OR NOT BE, AT WILL IS ESSENTIAL IN ORDER THAT A VIEWPOINT BE SELF-DETERMINED about what is affecting him and what is not affecting him. This depends, of course then, upon what a viewpoint identifies himself with and depends upon the ability of the viewpoint to unidentify himself rapidly.” (8-8008)
Oops, I meant emphasis in caps is mine.
“” Which begs the question; What is ultimately outside everything – something that that can be both consistent and inconsistent, at will perhaps?
“”that is knowledge”” in the true form of cognitions. Exist when one needs it and it is not there when not required.
Yes. KNOWLEDGE surfaces at will.
. . . and I am trying to grasp the significance and possibilities of recursion and hyper-recursion with regard to Godel’s. Are infinite fractal iterations subject to Godel’s?
Yes, they would be.
. . . and I’m reading LOGICOMIX… I get it, hehe.
“””THE MEANING OF THE WORLD THOSE NOT RESIDE IN THE WORLD””””
here is something from Marty’s blog, But of course V.. never have commented back;
V….”Awareness appears to be the property of the disturbance. Light appears to be outward expression of the disturbance. Awareness at this level is of a primordial nature. It builds up as perception and discrimination as light gains wave-length and frequency.
There is no self at this level. The universe consists only of radiating awareness and light. The universe itself is the primordial self. While matter and objects are generated from electromagnetic radiation, soul and self are generated from awareness.
.Elizabeth Hamre | June 3, 2014 at 11:16 am | Reply
” In my reality… awareness it self is doing something, being aware is already connecting to ”knowing”, if one do not know than cant possibly being ”aware”.
Again in my reality, “awareness ” is relatively new term since becoming aware one has to know what one is aware of, and that is judging, comparing.
Toss these thought about, but before you do please remove those occluding filters. 🙂
Elizabeth Hamre | June 3, 2014 at 11:25 am | Reply
to V…PS;; have you occurred to you that there is another universe outside of this Universe which is nothing more than on energy field?
And the ”’awareness”’ was there long before we become aware of this Universe, have it occurred to you that this energy field is really nothing more than on energy field and the awareness is outside of this fiend?
Elizabeth Hamre | June 3, 2014 at 11:56 am | Reply
to V…… I have total recall of the track and not only mine but millions of other beings too. So this bit of reality gained gives me a very different view of the Universe.
Here is something to think over: the reason scientist and others who do their best ”by trying” to figure out this universe but cant and that is simply because the puzzle pieces don’t fit together.
The pieces which they want to fit into each other belong to a very different universe : ”awareness” is one of them.
Of course those who are in this place here have some of the ”memory” …reality available now of that Universe but they do not know that it belongs a very different reality which is not based on energy field.
The guessing will be going on for long time, but one has to step out of this energy-field to understand what is beyond..
Of course, I understand that this view-reality I have presented is totally unacceptable by you. since to you I am nothing but on airhead, delusional person..
I find it most interesting that people like you by the millions went into scientology for one reason only: to find reality beyond what was or is available, yet, when reading that yes some one in this case me, have achieved that, that cant see beyond the ”normal human beliefs’ is labelled as delusional, out of her mind.. 🙂
Free Will.. what are our Daydreams!
For years I have been wondering what are our IMMAGINATIONS those thoughts when we are wishing for something, something beautiful, and in these beautiful imaginations we are construction creating something independently new, original and usually these Imagined make-beliefs are not connected to anything special, but these creations make us feel good and we are always victors. And these Imaginations so called visualizations day-dreams we are fully aware that they are just that and we also know that they never become real.. will never ever happen, materialize.
But they feel good to have them and these day-dreams are our own and no one can touch and destroy them.
Within these Daydreams we are free, and we are free thinkers, we have free will to create whatever we desire, whatever extravagant we want and with that we have..
Realization: these daydreams are outside of the MEST, they are not controlled by the implanted forced on beliefs and they can’t become real because we were made to believe and we have agreed that only implanted realities are true, and anything outside of these implanted believes these are just ILLUSIONS and therefore not important, don’t have value and most of all truly not real.
In fact it is reversed… the freedom of Daydreaming is the creation of Free Will.
Have a good one!
Jonathan Livingston Seagull .. yes.. book too is my all-time favorite and never read Gödel.
I will say it again here, no one will find the answers about this universe in this Universe, since knowledge we have brought with us from Universe totally forgotten by now by us.. And that Knowledge is different reality but of course some of it is interpreted but will not fit into the MEST-energy field, in the narrow minded considerations of those who believe in only what the ”eyes” can see..
PS; Each considerations -thoughts-agreements any person has that is their reality, therefor that is their universe: cant see outside of hose already existing beliefs and each though is sitting on a energy mass.. That energy-mass has varied amount of charge to which the person is being stuck.
The person only have much SPACE as these energy-masses occupies: while the person is within the boundaries of the belief he only have reality and free will is only on illusion. because long as every though, beliefs this person has is sitting an… being connected to that energy -mass those energy masses are the controlling factors=stimulations they provide and those are the thoughts-belief.
Auditing-confronting by having cognitions the person separate self from those heavy energy masses and FREE WILL on those subjects the new reality= truth is that persons new universe and within that universe that person is free to create.
By separating self from those energy-masses the person space expands incredibly and allows that person to view new realities, understanding how what is perceived now IS.
With those new realities in place they are now the new boundaries for that person, they remain in place till until again new viewpoints are embraced and with that the expansion of that persons space continues and within the Free Will, which are the creative abilities of that persons: the Illusions… creating .. illusions and that too is that persons knowledge-understanding.
A concept which is interpreted by each individual accordingly what is their personal reality.
I had to look that word up and since than it sort of hunts …. what that means to me?
it means that I wanted to know and when I finally had I realised that body of knowledge had no value and understanding that brought total contentment.
thank you for writing that word.
A TERMINAL, as used in Scientology, seem to be a bunch of condensed considerations. The terminal itself seem to be a node in a larger matrix of considerations.
Let me comment on this quote from LRH (8-8008) which is provides by Marildi above:
“A terminal is, in essence, any point of no form or any form or dimension from which energy can flow or by which energy can be received. A viewpoint then, is a sort of terminal, but a terminal must have a particle in order to do automatic interchanges and one finds that a viewpoint can be affected by the MEST universe only when the viewpoint has identified itself with some MEST universe article, such as a body. The rehabilitation of the viewpoint’s ability TO BE, OR NOT BE, AT WILL IS ESSENTIAL IN ORDER THAT A VIEWPOINT BE SELF-DETERMINED about what is affecting him and what is not affecting him. This depends, of course then, upon what a viewpoint identifies himself with and depends upon the ability of the viewpoint to unidentify himself rapidly.”
The viewpoint is a condensed ball of considerations, but these are softer type of considerations with greater ability to transmute input. A terminal is also a condensed ball of considerations, but these considerations are of a harder type with lesser ability to transmute the input. They rather channel the input.
It is not the “identification with MEST” that is wrong with a viewpoint. What is wrong is that its internal makeup of considerations is all tangled up and needs to be sorted out.
Awareness and matter, like software and hardware, are two different aspects of the same phenomenon. A thetan does not exist separate from the body that it can be picked up from a body with forceps. The thetan is distributed throughout the body into each DNA as a wave phenomenon.
In your not-so humble opinion 😉
That is a violation of discussion policy. You are bringing a filter into this discussion.
My blog. My rules.
My opinions. 🙂
V …”The thetan is distributed throughout the body into each DNA as a wave phenomenon.””
That is impossible, in my reality… I can not be distributed but I can distribute….
DNA has considerations imprinted and that is not the thetan V… do use your thinking ..
There is nothing “outside” the universe. The universe is a term that is intended to look at all existence as a single system.
Observations that apply to sub systems that exist side by side within the universe cannot be automatically assumed to apply to the universe as the sole system with nothing existing beside it.
Regarding the nature of this universe my current working model is as follows. Of course, it is subject to change:
KHTK Postulate M-1A: For there to be awareness there must be disturbance.
The rawest of all awareness has to be the awareness of pure disturbance. Prior to that there would be no awareness. Only a theoretical ground state may be postulated in terms of undisturbed primordial field that contains no frequency, wavelength or period.
But this ground state shall forever be unknowable and shall remain only theoretical because there is no awareness to go with it. Awareness arises only when this ground state is disturbed. The awareness then accompanies a disturbance that seem to be traveling through a primordial field.
KHTK Postulate M-1B: This disturbance has the outward form of primordial light wave.
This is a very raw level of creation. Soul, self, energy, matter, etc., come later.
While awareness is the essential property of this disturbance, the outward form of the disturbance is not different from some primordial harmonic of the electromagnetic wave. The wave-length of this disturbance is nearly infinite, and the frequency nearly zero. The period and velocity are infinite for all practical purposes.
We instinctively associate light with awareness. Both of them seem to have the same basis. Both seem to be merely two different aspects of the same primordial phenomenon.
Light may fall in the category called ‘physical’. Awareness may fall in the category called metaphysical or ‘spiritual’. It is quite possible that the old assumption that ‘physical’ and ‘spiritual’ are two separate phenomena is in error. More likely the ‘universe’ is a single phenomenon and ‘physical’ and ‘spiritual’ are two different ways of looking at it.
In this model awareness and light start out in a very primitive form, These are aspects of a phenomenon that evolves into a sophisticated universe. It is only in this developed universe that we find ‘spiritual’ self and ‘physical’ objects.
Thus, there is no developed intelligence at the early stages of the universe. Intelligence has developed along with the universe as part of it. There is no “physical” universe as such. It is a “spiritual-physical” universe.
Vinaire; I recommend you read the book. And let your guard down and your views open to influence and change.
I have added it to my list.
Another comment regarding both you/KHTK and Hubbard/Scientology: I believe you have both done your work a great disservice by merging a methodology with a philosophy. Both you and Hubbard have supplied working methodologies – but to fuse it with a world view and all kinds of explanations as to why it seemingly works is to feed your audience your own filters and not let the audience work out for themselves why something works. And the reason something works may be something entirely different from what you (or Hubbard) may think. Each person may have his or her reason why a specific method works. This fusing of methodology and philosophy and this overselling of personal filters seems to work against potentially working tools.
I say give the tools freely and let people try them out for themselves and see if they work. And sell a world view to those who want that as food for thought. This package called Scientology is a mess. KHTK is going down the same route.
The only methods that I have highlighted are MINDFULNESS and SUBJECT CLEARING. The philosophy is my own and I don’t expect anybody to follow it blindly.
I recommend that people think for themselves and do not take anything for granted, either what i write or the book that you are showcasing.
I would advocate a Complete separation of method and philosophy to not tarnish the tools by personal opinions.
They are separate. They are not confusing in KHTK at all. One can always ask me for clarification.
The tools so far are MINDFULNESS and SUBJECT CLEARING. The only philosophy required to apply these tools exist in two simple documents written to describe them.
Of course, I have experimented with Scientology and Idenics processes to see how they would work with mindfulness. That has been a lot of fun.
Geir: “I would advocate a Complete separation of method and philosophy to not tarnish the tools by personal opinions.”
What about all the evidence that an educated pc gets better results? I would say that’s because ANY methodology is built on some system of thought. Therefore, an understanding of that system can assist in the correct, rather than rote, application of the methodology.
Nevertheless, I would agree that at some point the ideal scene would be for a person to work out the underlying principles for himself – and this should be encouraged from the beginning. (That would align with the “early LRH”.)
Also, it stands to reason that the most workable methodologies would be the ones that are based on the greatest amount of truth – even though it is only metaphorically expressed, as with all constructs. With a truly workable methodology, a person would eventually be able to “make it his own” according to his own insight.
Vinaire..”More likely the ‘universe’ is a single phenomenon and ‘physical’ and ‘spiritual’ are two different ways of looking at it.”
Fantastic… well put…totally right in my reality. 🙂
“If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.” – Dr. Wayne Dyer
good for the doctor… have you anything original to say?
How about this then ? Hanging out with such a mixed “bag” as that found on Geir’s blog — is tantamount to the supreme test of “free will”. 🙂
that again if it supreme test of free will or just handling as things come along depends how ones confront is.
Okay E! Pretty astute answer. How about including ‘how’ one’s ‘beingness’ & ability to ‘grant’ beingness, is, as well?
please reread what I said… the persons is where what he can confront.. so if it is ”Hanging out with such a mixed “bag” as that found on Geir’s blog — is tantamount to the supreme test of “free will”. 🙂 than that is where that person is… that how that person sees things so that is fine with me others just handle things as they come.. now where allowing beingness or not allowing beingness enters into this?
Both way is allowing beingness, since each individual have their own confrontation level…. and ability to duplicate too.
” . . .is tantamount to the supreme test of “free will”. :)”
“How so?” — Cause you’re ‘here’! — LOL!
V……Thus, there is no developed intelligence at the early stages of the universe. Intelligence has developed along with the universe as part of it. “
Dear V… since there is speculation and by many others who have the reality and the belief that there are countless universe out there occupied by beings who are not like humans and an these Planets the occupants are not intelligent but their knowledge and abilities far superior to any humans.
So to say when ” intelligence” have developed or not is simple PURE assumption.
v… LIGHT AND AWARNESS IS ASSOSIATED? Now.. I cant e that at all. I never needed to use flashlight to become aware of something.
That is huge assumption!.
ABOUT THE DEVELOPEMENT OF HUMAN INTELIGENCE!!!!
Wish you would not said that.
Animals, never ever shit on the same place where they bed in. But look at the humans, they are determined to destroy the Planet and they do it with gusto.. Not only the Planet but self and others, by poisoning the very food which nurture the body and the soil it self where they grow it.
They poison their body with alcohol, drugs of every kind, and their mind with degrading filth in the form of porno among other things. Human intelligence? That has not been invented here.. yes it has but not recognised by too many therefore it is only in use by the few who realised the value.
Intelligent reality do not destroy.
Fascinating presentation, Geir! And certainly made more so via the intriguing artwork, which may lure a previously untapped market into reading this book. (me included!). Somehow though, I harbor the sneaking suspicion that we end up in yet another “hamster wheel’ to nowhere – determined by our ‘search’ – to find the ‘unknowable’.
Vinay, of course, will undoubtedly dispute / refute any personal involvement within such a ‘wheel’ 🙂
One is reminded of that Elron quote in such matters:
….”Mystery — is the glue, that sticks a being to things.” 🙂
a comic seems like a better medium for philosophy than others, haven’t read this yet so won’t comment on the comic yet
these comments remind me of the elrons axiom about affinity being a scale… down to close proximity but mystery
there’s some sort of graph or lecture i recall that made sense but again had no real explanation i know of regarding that awkward circular relationship in the polar convergence between singularity and plurality, mystery is an inverting harmonic or something goofy, if someone actually understood it I would expect an short explanation in simple terms would form
Someguy: “…that awkward circular relationship in the polar convergence between singularity and plurality…”
I’m not sure I understand exactly what you’re referring to – but see if this excerpt from 8-8008 relates to it:
“One of the control mechanisms which has been used on thetans is leading them to believe that when they rise in potential they will find themselves ‘one with the universe.’ This is distinctly untrue. Thetans are individuals. They do not, as they rise up the scale, merge with other individualities. They have the power of becoming anything they wish while still retaining their own individuality. They are, first and foremost, themselves.
“There is evidently no Nirvana. It is the feeling that one will ‘merge’ and lose his own individuality that restrains the thetan from attempting to remedy his lot. His merging with the rest of the universe would be his becoming matter. This is the ultimate in cohesiveness and the ultimate in affinity and is at the lowest point of the tone-scale. One declines into a ‘brotherhood with the universe.’ “When he goes upscale, he becomes more and more an individual capable of creating and maintaining his own universe.” (Scientology 8-8008)
Yes, someguy (hope we get to find out ‘who’ -someday) 🙂
Elron, as we had gotten to know him — through his phenomenal ‘output’ — ie ‘research’ work in the trenches, tossing out what must have been countless ‘disappointments’, that simply didn’t work. However, no one could ever accuse him of being short of imagination or creativity, or especially dogged determination to FIND what works! — hence your standard auditor Tech, which works invariably, according to all of us who are no longer troubled by those previous items of ‘case’.
The items you require clarification on, are not on offer without a bit more ‘homework’ – which you can check out in O-8 The quickest grasp though, may result from the 1&-a-half pages of the topic ‘scales’, on p.99 -100. The other ‘scales’ may then begin to make more sense, especially KNOW TO MYSTERY SCALE (1953), and the expanded version.
Let me know how it goes, bro’ will you? 🙂
Hey all! … just to say– I enjoyed the fun & jousting with you guys. 🙂 It’s now 1.35am here on a cold winter’s early morning in South Africa. Hitting the hay soon (yawn) Pickup with you later
Oh… you should have taken the pearls of wisdom with you, put them under your pillow and by morning we hope they would grow into something truly enlightening. 🙂 Oh well, we can always hope.! I put mine under the cat’s body hers is warmer than mine, and she intelligent…oh ever so.. she did not get into human body!:)
Good day E. Another day in ‘paradise’… she in hers, you in yours, me in mine! BTW E, ‘her’ name is ? 🙂
🙂 Sanifar. 🙂 or Szuszu
Oh I saaaaaay, how dignified we aaaaahhre dahling!
…hope she appreciates the elevaaaaation, ‘n all…. reoooowww!
There you go again… in your usual manner evaluating and meanwhile you haven’t a clue what those names mean.
Lets end this comm since it has no value.. and that is my evaluation of our communication. useless crap both ways. You have the ability to inspire crap., .
How very sad you be , E, that you do not get my sarky admiration for your dahling Sanifar / Szuszu. The meow was a light-hearted attempt to say ‘hello’ to her!.. nothing more…
You have made your own’ feelings’ perfectly clear, (again), for which I thank you. Sigh..soooooooo ‘seriously’ sad… 😦
right, your sense of humor is wasted on me so goooooo and dazzle some other persons who appreciate the slime you pour out.
We might think to our self but we don’t say out aloud ‘I don’t like you” but I don’t like you not even a little bit. and I sincerely hope you feel the same way about me so we don’t have to ”pretend’ to be nice just because we post in the same blog. Once more with feelings. I do not like you.! *&%(#@*%%@%#&^#*&$@#+++ got that? I too have a sense of humor..
Geir and all you other fathers, Happy Fathers Day! 🙂
Thanks, Marildi… much appreciated 🙂
Consistency makes up habits, predictability, weight, matter.
And creation in life consists in playing with densities 🙂
That consistency is only apparent. There is a ridge underlying anything solid.
What is that ridge, care to describe it?
Maybe there is a flow but it is flowing in a fixed pattern. Take a look at anything that has a form, which is staying the same.
For example, a river may be flowing, but there can be patterns that are staying the same.
Ridge would be anything that is persisting. But it would be only apparent.
so existence of the RIDGE IS ONLY ON ASSUMPTION.. :)???? Mental ridge? existing only ones reality? please give on example what would be a mental ridge.
Persistence of anything.
ohhhhhhhhhh… a permanent illusion.. which just hangs there like the mirage – figments of imagination? 🙂
“The solidification of matter is found to be itself duration or time.”
~ Hubbard, Scn 8-8008
duration, to that I agree.. since ”time” dont exist.. well what can I say. any subject can be approached from two direction.. Know or not know… in my reality any matter regardless how solid, will corrode and the ”speed of corrosion” depends on other energy mass which holds that “hard-energy-mass” in its space: in other words 🙂 eats it away hehehe wears it down, over comes it, uses it up, takes in: inco-operates it into self, dissolve it into different looking, what ever. we have many expressions for that action. by the way, I really dont know much about LRh’s written spoken material.
So, ridge, or solidity, is produced in space by time. It is illusion because it is relative, conditioned and impermanent.
time cant produce anything since time do not exist.. time that concept is one of the biggest illusions of them all. ridge is produced by other matter which is stronger, or heavier. example: very strong moving air=wind will rearrange any sand dunes, creating different ridges, or flowing water can do that too. it happens continually, example; our bodies is not aged-altered by time, but altered by other energy flows which are foods, chemicals, what ever enter into it, or rubs against it, all those different energies affects the energy level of the body, alters it all the time.
Matter is illusion too. It consists of space-time.
PS: I must add, aging of the body is also affected by few thousands of different agreement from other places, so called past lifes.
Aren’t they illusion too?
hehehe that solely depends in what any one believes in. If you believe that image that mirror produces is you that is really really you. ..hehehe you see I know I dont have on image.. so the mirror what ever it shows is definitely not me, has nothing to do with me.
Isn’t the believer an illusion too?
good question, very good one.. now let me figure this one out.. since 2+2 =7 🙂 … how on Illusion could believe in something? That image in the mirror dont have the mind of its own and that image is on illusion. Where are you going with this questions? cant be too far since you already established ”in your own universe that I am delusional” if you put pluss crasy, out of your mind.. that to is Ok by me.. you see, you really not labeling me but the concepts of the words you read and what you read into these words are your own reality how you see -understand something. 🙂 love ya V.. your twisted universe. 🙂 few days back my sister was having on argument on something I have said some years back and here I was looking at her from great distance and I realised she was actually having the fight with the concepts she believed existed.. That fight had nothing to do with me.. So I figured that saying :fighting with a windmill.. is indication that it is totally useless to argue.. only words are attacked.
Aren’t the ideas of mine and yours illusion?
ideas, what are they is like walking on the mine field, you see my dear I do believe in auditing, I believe in past lives, having them, therefore by now I know BUT THIS IS MY REALITY AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN THE SAME.. and these belief are not agreed to be by simple getting together reading the same material and in chorus say: it is true!! We who have been audited and have continually solo audit we come to have the same reality BUT INDEPENDENTLY that all thoughts-thinking is created-implanted material. Some of these material was forced on us and to some we happily bought int. to some we agreed in order to be accepted into that group. Yes, on the LOOOOONG run they are all illusions. just think, where are my thoughts which were with me few minutes back, few hours back, few years back?? where are they now.? They aren’t even whiff of air. So talking about illusions. Just think whose spoken words are recorded daily on this Planet out of trillions spoken?
Do you believe that the ultimate reality is self, such a “I” and “you” ?
Oh.. I..you.. as a Tittle, on indicator is not real since they point to action.. identification, and they identify who is doing that action.. now again this I, you self, me us these points toward the so called ”originator” these concept belongs to the human race. it is their consideration that those exist separately.
how can that be ultimate? cave man did not use words just grunted, the I and you did not existed so it was coined since than.. how could something like that which is so newly made up ultimate?
So, “I”, “you”, “mine” “yours” are illusions. Correct?
in my reality what is true to me, yes. But if you come here and claim my cat to be yours I would cut your liver out first than roast the rest of you over a pit where fire is smoldering slowly and I would have you roasted CRISPY OUTSIDE AND TENDER INSIDE THAN I WOULD INVITE THE NABORING CAYOTIES FOR THE FEAST.. :0) I just want to make my self crystal clear on the matter.:) But as Entities we would watch over the Feast and make wild guesses who gets the most tender morsels. 🙂 Oh.. our communication has become toooooo boring… the hell with the universe! She is sleeping on the ottoman and having a wild encounter with her own illusion, I know that because her tail is swooshing back and fort!
Wouldn’t that be attachment to illusion?
HEHEHEHEHE LOL LOL I KNEW YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT! good night and hang an to your liver! Love ya! thank you for the grand communication! E.
yes attachment to illusion.. in fact i have created my own illusion about her which gives me pleasure to have.
Pleasure could be an illusion too. The question is what is not an illusion?
hehehe and all of that is on illusion. so just how much weight matter has? habits, predictability, weight, matter are agreed upon considerations, when all the agreements are taken away.. what is there left? the belief of one person and that belief is the reality-illusion that those belief is solid.
If illusion is persisting then illusion is persisting. 🙂
right you are, the problem IS that people mix up different universes. If we talk of HUMAN CONSIDERATIONS-BELIEF-AGREEMENTS that all those things DO EXIST: BECAUSE IT IS EXISTHING FOR HUMANS. Those agreements are the make up of human believes.
But if we talk of spiritual’s .. entities and their universe and what is their believes, what those are made up from than we know that their universe is only on illusion. So my dear what universe you care to represent.. that is the question. Cant have it both ways simply because the MEST- solid universe is on illusion.
There is only one univese, though it may have different aspects.
For a long time space and time were regarded as absolute concepts in themselves. Newtonian mechanics built on that consideration is still very successful but in a limited scope on earth. Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, when considering a cosmic scale, finds space and time to be relative. Similarly, Abrahamic religions have long regarded spiritual and physical states to be absolute in themselves. This has been adequate for a limited understanding of human consciousness. But to understand consciousness on cosmic scale we need to consider spiritual and physical states to be relative. A spiritual state will have physical form, no matter how subtle. And a physical state will have some spiritual characteristics, no matter how subdued.
PS those guys you mention in your above post, their beliefs and their teachings was never read by little old me here. So I cant comment on their reality.
PS; same goes for Abrahamic thing. we never met, he did not study my beliefs and my teachings and I never were interested in his.. So there you go.. This lives out those guys so, just you and I left here to talk about our realities.
I have presented my reality. There is only one overall universe and spirituality-physicality are relative. 🙂
Ideas gain expression, form and reality by consistency of attention and thus beliefs, created by the meanings we convey to the inner symbols objectified in the outer world. This is directly linked to our conclusions about ourselves, others and the universe we share.
We can also destroy and create beliefs at will, although some appear to be more challenging and we indeed experience them as such.
And by the way, Jonathan Livingston Seagull is one of favorite books too.
what’s so funny? 😛
that you on the picture are green, have bat wings, wear a mask and a little spout of something growing and you have forgotten to put on shoes? outside of that frankly I dont know:) 🙂 🙂 🙂
LOL 😀 i love that pic 😛 it’s not a spout of “something growing”; it’s a fountain! that mouth is of amazement and the bare feet… have you ever seen a bat with shoes? 😛 only batman, woman! 😀
🙂 ohhhhh?, see we all ready disagree! 🙂 in my reality any bat can wear shoes, you are making me wrong and my mother warned me about you that you are no good, green one withoutout shoes are bad lot, she was right! see we are having out first fight and because of it I will never marry you so I am I put in the mail the rock you give me, it is toooo small for my likening! and it is basalt and I wanted sandstone!
oh my, oh my… this is not starting very well, is it??
in your reality any bat can wear shoes but can they at least choose?
sorry for disappointing you and failing your expectations!
I have some quartz; is it ok with you? 😛
🙂 yes, you can choose long as what I want!!!! and I want sandstone, all the girls have it it and it is the latest and I want it.. simply because I am worth it! and keep your cheap quartz! 🙂
I don’t know how are you going to handle this but sandstone is composed of quartz… 😀 not to mention the Earth!
So you are arguing again, contradicting my perfect knowledge? mother told me all about your kind of bats and I bet that you want to brake up with me that is the reason you picking on me. 🙂 [ I have no clue about what sandstone is composed of, I have them in my garden as stepping stones, they have lovely coloring complimenting the greenery and the strong coloring of the flowers. I am named stone path as Blue Bell walk because here and there I have planted clumps of them and they compliment the coloring of the stones.]
you cannot say you have no clue what sandstone is composed of, because i just told you 😛 QUARTZ!
your garden sounds peaceful and beautiful 🙂
🙂 right you are! call me ”the one who cant duplicate.” yes the garden is magnificent and the lilies are coming into bloom, now the trumpet lilies are open and next will be the oriental lilies, beside those there are many other flowering plants and the late blooming azaleas’ showing off their beautiful creations!
yes… the universe is a beautiful place, it is what you create, what you believe in. 🙂
the universe is as beautiful as you are in love with it… 🙂
Love with it? No… not even a little bit, but some of the energy which I call life force= creative energy is very light, sparkles like crushed diamonds are pleasurable to experience and Nature has that energy.
come to think of it, you have failed because you were going to give information to a lame brain bat hehehe
i love bats 🙂 i see many where i live – they are absolutely amazing creatures!
where you live has to be south USA or even further, we have some here but never see them since they come out in the evening doing their hunts for flying bugs. I dont have reality on them but crows yes, and I like them, they are brilliant, but I consider all animals, birds, mammal, to be brilliant.
yes, i love them all too.
and i live in Europe 🙂
Hehehe got me again..care to name the country? I was born in Hungary, but live here in BC Canada.
oh a lurker you are, who has great deal to lose if would name the country where the body is.. good god man.. look a Geir, David St Lawrence, Marty etc and me.. we have our laundry hanging on the line blowing in the breeze and we are still alive.. far as I know the only thing is not published about me is what color my unmentionable is! and no one ever knocked on my door yet! but I am sure even that is in the computer someplace because I have been frisked coming across the border. Oh. the secrets people have do keep them in the prison of their own beliefs. self created prisons!
I do not think that we can create and destroy beliefs at will. There seems to be an underlying law by which beliefs are created and destroyed.
To bad you dont believe in confronting on item-idea-belief- thought like facing them one by one and recognising what really are, because if you would than you could experience the thrill of destroying a belief at your will… because we can and we have the ability to do so. When confronted the lie will vanish and the only residue would be left behind is a newly born reality a realization why that lie existed in your universe in the first place.
Maybe I have already done that.Your belief and thrill could just be an illusion.
yes, but very different thrill or reality, not just looking toward the corner but seeing around the corner to, not just seeing a cloud but to be able to have holographic picture of it, able put ones attention on the item and TO KNOW how it was created and see it’s life span and how will it end: what will happen to it, Yes, the new thrill do bring new -different expanded realities. different way to see what one is capable creating-having and most of all having the knowledge, the answers, the reasons why one is here and doing it all. it is not a small thing and cant dismiss it with a sneeze.
V.. IF you would done that you would know and because you would know you would not write “MAYBE”.
There are no absolutes.
V…”There are no absolutes.”‘ that is a statement! but I accept it as your reality. I get a coffee and get back on this absolute thingy.
I looked up the word so I could get a different-wider, more in debt understanding. ” Absolute = total, complete, utter, out and out, entire, unconditional, ” You have thrown in the pot the above sentence.. now care to explain what it can not be absolute?
V….”Pleasure could be an illusion too. The question is what is not an illusion””
why pleasure would be different? The cat is a cat, it is I who consider that she is: soft, beautiful, small, pleasurable to touch, etc.. the cat do not project any of my beliefs which I have about her. to her in reality : I give shelter, food, and I give her pleasure by touching, scratching her.. This is a mutual existence and each of us provide, each of us is a source.
I know what is not on illusion but I wonder if you would believe it if I would write disclose that fact, because that is the fact.
You and cat are relative to each other. There are no absolutes.
Sorry, V.. I dont know how you mean that… please explain.
DEFINITION: Absolute means, “Viewed independently; not comparative or relative; ultimate; intrinsic.”
There is nothing absolute in the world. Everything is relative, conditioned and impermanent. There is no unchanging, everlasting, absolute substance like Self, Soul, or Ātman within or without.
I buy that, but the soul the creative what ever you want to call which is doing all the creating is unchanging simply because there is nothing which could be changed, there is no substance to intangible.
The soul is changing with its creation. There is no soul when there is no creation.
did what I read is what I read that the soul is changing? back to the kinder garden with you! Do you really believe that the soul is the THINGY? and without the experience there is no one at home? What I read and understood is one only exist if one experience the solidity of energy. I believe if that would be true I instantly would get totally drunk.. or shoot my self.. How can you believe such a thing that we are one with energy and without we are nothing? Or well it is your illusion.. enjoy… 🙂 but dont ask me to agree to such a rubbish!
It is the desire to know oneself which disturbs the ground state into awareness.
The disturbance is manifested as an imbalance between the states of perceiving and knowing. It is as if knowledge is initiating perception and then perception is recognizing knowledge in an effort to find oneself. But when there is knowledge, the perception is missing, and when there is perception the knowledge is missing. It keeps disturbance going much like a pendulum swinging back and forth due to gravity.
This disturbance appears as awareness that becomes conscious of itself as light. It is kept going by the force of the underlying desire to know. As this desire gets stronger the “pendulum” starts to swing faster. This brings about the disturbance levels.
Geee V… is that engineer talk? sorry, you left me way beyond. My universe is a very simple place.. there are no fancy wording, no complication and I am definitely not a smart person as in ” human terms” . As I said: I only been in kinder garden..:)
In simple terms, the universe starts with a desire to know oneself. Peace comes when that desire is satisfied.
Universe starts with the desire to know one self…. in my reality self as a concept have not been born when the Universe become.
That is correct. Awareness forms the core of self. Self is not there when awareness first appears. And this awareness seems to start from a selfless desire.
Once the seed of desire is there it makes itself grow.
V….. I have not started out 41 years back to discover the secrets of the Universe, but I simply wanted to know why I was like my mother, why my sex life was not so hot as other people had[ or lied that they have] Why I was who I was, and why I had constant headaches, and why man were after this body, etc..etc.. I wanted to be different from mother, I wanted to have better life, to remember things, and to stop the headaches once and for all. Hehehe and few dozen other things I wanted to know about like why I was so shy, why I was afraid of dark and why I could not be alone in the dark.. hehehe… and why I feared what I feared ! I have found the answers for all the above and few hundred thousands of other questions which have arisen as my reality-awareness has expanded.. More answers I got more questions I asked, and by now I have run out of questions and I feel fine.. I dont need to unearth all the secrets of the universe since I am contented to know what were mine. I cant debate some one else’s reality simply because I cant duplicate what they know. You see, the universe has become a very simple place since the mysteries are gone… there are no secrets, there is no unknown which hunts me… Now it is just present moment of NOW.. No past.. no future.. just Now. What one can debate about that I ask?
What more can one ask for then, other than going around and troubling others?
🙂 and you respond so well !!!!! 🙂 perfect target! 🙂 thank you for being there! 🙂
Much much more there than one can imagine while having the considerations of a human.. The realities one can gain insight is limitless… without boundaries.. All one needs is the right question and that question is the key which opens that door to a new universe where everything is different. The answers to the questions come instantly… there is no hesitations, no guessing, no assumptions…
gravity? what gravity has to do with the Intangible Infinite the Entity it self? or if you want to call it Soul….. Spirit or being with out the body, or being in the Ghostly state? What gravity has to do with awareness …knowledge?
That was just an analogy.
analogy for what? is analogy a double talk for something? I am clueless… I can not comment on something which I dont understand.
V…….”I have presented my reality. There is only one overall universe and spirituality-physicality are relative””
:)… we only have one Universe what we believe in. For you that is the only universe and the same was for Abraham, Newton, Evita Peron, and my cat Szuszu… what we know believe in that is our universe, I cant see Sahara from here, so it do not exist for me. Very simple, my Universe is. Since I dont have TV, I dont listen to news my universe is a very quiet lovely place full of beautiful things… Mind you on occasional ant gets into my pants and takes a chunk out of my hind.. and I am allergic to their venom acid, so we are at war!