The above is Peter Heppner anno 2012. This one is from 1991. Again, interesting lyrics:
How long have you been free
In this world of hate and greed
Is it black or is it white
Let’s find another compromise
And our future´s standing still
We’re dancing in the spotlight
Where is the leader who leads me
I’m still waiting …
Leaving home …
And god is on your side
Dividing sparrows from the nightingales
Watching all the time
Dividing water from the burning fire … inside
Leave a light on in the night for me, that I can find you
Remember when we both where young and reckless and so curious …
Now you’re hiding from your child … a new day’s dawning
Remember that you felt alive, sometimes …
And god is on your side
Dividing cruelty from tenderness
Watching all the time
Dividing fiction from reality
Move in circles walk on lines no human being in sight
Calm the winds and calm the seas
Let´s try another kind of peace
Who fights this holy civil war
A million men in uniform
Wo ist der Führer der mich führt?
Ich warte immer noch …!
Leaving home …
And god is on your side
Dividing presence from our history
Watching all the time
Dividing deaf men from the listening ones
Leave a light on in the night for me, that I can find you
Remember when we both where young and reckless and so curious …
Now you’re hiding from your child … a new day’s dawning
Remember that you felt alive, sometimes …
And god is on your side
Dividing cruelty from tenderness
Watching all the time
Dividing fiction from reality
Move in circles walk on lines no human being in sight
Calm the winds and calm the seas
Let´s try another kind of peace
Who fights this holy civil war
A million men in uniform
Wo ist der Führer der mich führt?
Ich warte immer noch …!
Leaving home …
And god is on your side
Dividing presence from our history
Watching all the time
Dividing deaf men from the listening ones
Leave a light on in the night for me, that I can find you
Remember when we both where young and reckless and so curious …
Now you’re hiding from your child … a new day’s dawning
Remember that you felt alive, sometimes …
And god is on your side
Dividing soldiers from the fisherman
Watching all the time
Dividing warships from the ferryboats
Geir Isene - uncut 
Lyrics are very nice.
truth is, i donno what inspired to you this vid to get into your
universe if you still have a separate one, i preferred an earlier
one which you put it here….also, as you wrote earlier, it is in plain view…just view, without any ‘point’ not as it is in the above song…
shall we go into QP? (just to ease it a bit, the music is not bad)
marianne: “. . . truth is, i donno what inspired to you this vid to get into your universe if you still have a separate one,. . .”
Chris: I’ve been puzzling over this comment which I believe is the one Marildi agreed with and which got our new fight started. Can you explain to me what you are implying?
From “Life of Pi”
pi: can i ask you something?
writer: of course.
pi: i’ve told you two stories about what happened out in the ocean. neither explains what causes the sinking of the ship and no one can prove the story is true and which is not. in both stories the ship sinks, my family dies
writer: true
pi: so which story do you prefer?
writer: (pauses then smiles) the one with the tiger. that’s the better story.
pi: thank you, and so it goes with god.
Geir, do you think the lyrics of this song are an expression of nihilism?
“…Give us what we need
Lies we can believe in
Truth’s not honesty
Give us what we need
Lies we can believe in
Truth is not the key”
Nihilism:
“Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.
“Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived.
“Nihilism can also take epistemological or ontological/metaphysical forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible, or that reality does not actually exist.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
No – rather the opposite. I see the lyrics as existential and deep truth. The makeup needed for any game to exist.
HI.. I thought I throw this here in the pot.. You never know who has the need of it. Todays Cognition;
FREE FLOATING … not being connected, letting go, not within the fixed –stationary unmovable boundaries: being EXTERIOR.
I had sessions on LRH’s definition out-body experiences on exteriorization or interiorization. I have had many wins but today I realised I never looked at the concepts of FLOATING or FREE FLOATING and now having session on this and related areas I had new understanding of what we do when we decide to let go of being anchored to any object: which include having a human bodies.
I have found many many reasons why the person sticks to the body and why it is so difficult to let it go: we use illnesses, old age, violence: like hearth attack, heavy stroke, all sort of accidents, being shut, committing suicide, overdosing on drugs, we do all sort of things in order to severe the connection and to be able to float freely once more.
Over the years in session I have found that there are many reasons we carry ‘’weight’’ and one of them is to hold us in stationary position: to keep ones space.
To become stable to remain in one place: to have a permanent surrounding we have done lots of things on the track because we are spirits- we don’t have a body, we don’t have a weight therefore we had to invent different means to stabilize self to remain in position: Example: Life span—conceived-born-living-and ending it; death of the body, with this we have invented “time” having past and deciding that we have future this two consideration alone gives “continuum..” Rolling pictures seeing them one after the other also hold us in position.
Anticipation of the ‘’future’’ what is yet to come is a good anchor..
We use thousands of these anchors to hold us in what by now we believe is real and solid therefor to FREEFLOAT once more, to “””exteriorise””” at will one need to remove all the believes-considerations one has why wants to remain within the boundaries whatever those may have been created by each individual.
The belief of BEING in a SOLID BODY and BEING THE BODY IT SELF IS ONE OF THE MOST PROFOUND –WEIGHTY CONSIDERATIONS WE BELIEVE IN, AGREED TO IN ORDER TO REMAIN IN STATIONARY POSITION AT ALL TIMES.
PS: Not being, not existing, not being known, fear of such a conditions makes us hold onto solid beliefs.. therefor free-floating being exterior permanently from the MEST is impassible, and of course there are few thousand different concepts I could list but those need to be found by each individual.
And words knowing them never ever freed any one.. never mind let them FREEFLOAT!
Oh, good! So what do you consider is “the makeup needed”? This is an interesting subject.
Lies that we can believe in – that is what is needed to make any game worthwhile.
This was the line that threw me: “Truth’s not honesty.”
Deep stuff
I think Marianne has it right. And since you are an artist, I believe you would agree with Rupert Spira that art is one of the ways that a person can experience that which is “permanent, ever-present, and eternal” – in other words, truth. Basic truth. And I would say that games can be played best when both relative and fundamental truths are acknowledged and experienced. Here’s Rupert’s explanation in less than 9 minutes:
Because all true artists agree with Rupert Spira?
Chris: “Because all TRUE artists agree with Rupert Spira?”
I have a question for the posters here. Can you see the deliberate innuendo in the comment above? And if so, do you think it’s okay?
From Wikipedia:
“innuendo is an insinuation or intimation about a person or thing, especially of a disparaging or a derogatory nature. It can also be a remark or question, typically disparaging (also called insinuation), that works obliquely by allusion. In the latter sense, THE INTENTION IS OFTEN TO INSULT OR ACCUSE IN SUCH A WAY THAT ONE’S WORDS, TAKEN LITERALLY, ARE INNOCENT.”
And do you get the covert intention behind Chris’ comment, as described at the end of the above quote (which I put in all caps)?
Also, here’s the definition of “taunt”:
“to say insulting things to (someone) in order to try to make that person angry. Synonyms: bait, hassle, haze, heckle, needle, ride.”
The above comment of Chris’ is subtle (covert) enough – i.e. he’s merely using the word “true” and putting it in italics – that he’s counting on no one getting it as a 1.1 remark. Except me, of course.
Or else he’s counting on others to think it’s no big deal, if they do observe that it is 1.1 innuendo. Is this really okay with any of you?
I don’t think it’s fair to leave it up to Geir to set the standard and the tone of the interaction here. We’re all responsible as a group for what comes about, including the polarizing that is deliberately set in motion.
I’m sure at least some of you are sharp enough to get that Chris’ words “true artist” are an allusion to “true believer” – one of the taunts he has repeated scores of times over a period of years now.
He claims that his purpose is to make sure everyone knows how evil Scientology is. But as I noted on the last thread, he doesn’t bother to carry on this “vitally important mission” on the other blogs where I post the same kinds of comments – as do others. So, obviously, there is no other purpose than that of taunting and heckling on a blog where he is able to get away with it.
Is this kind of thing really no big deal to any of you, just because you disagree with me about Scientology?
Since so much was said on this topic in the previous thread, Chris is starting out being more subtle in his covert hostility – which is part of his usual pattern too. And if I just “let it go,” as I usually do for quite a while, he will get more and more bold with the innuendo and polarizing, because there is no objection being made by anyone, not even me.
I’m just curious if any of you think it should be condoned when a poster continuously harasses another poster. Most of his comments are like the one above – which has nothing to do with what I posted, but he twists it into something to do with Scientology.
If you have a way of begging your questions and of chronic use of the “no true Scotsman fallacy” I don’t think you should have a problem with this. I write to what you write. I don’t call you names, acuse you of being evil or psychotic. I ask and write upon what you write. If I need to correct this because of a flaw with my logic or manners, I am willing. But if you want to complain because I point out a weakness in your arguments then I don’t feel I should be censored for that. I think you should argue better. I think that is because I read and understand what you write more carefully than you do what I write.
“Most of his comments are like the one above – which has nothing to do with what I posted, but he twists it into something to do with Scientology.”
When I quote your writing and remark about it, it seems to me it absolutely has to do with what you post. I have not mentioned Scientology, you are. I don’t see how I am being covertly hostile when I am writing plainly for anyone to see.
“I don’t think it’s fair to leave it up to Geir to set the standard and the tone of the interaction here. We’re all responsible as a group for what comes about,…”
Very cool 🙂
I should add to that last sentence: “Most of his comments are like the one above – which has nothing to do with what I posted, but he twists it into something to do with Scientology SO AS TO CONTINUE THE HARASSMENT.”
One more time, I remarked on “true artist” and you are bringing up Scientology. Is my evaluation of your tactic not this type of fallacy? Aren’t you trying to persuade using this fallacious logic? Find another way to argue and I won’t have this leverage. Or listen and understand what others write rather than argue.
Repeat: THE INTENTION IS OFTEN TO INSULT OR ACCUSE IN SUCH A WAY THAT ONE’S WORDS, TAKEN LITERALLY, ARE INNOCENT.” (Wikipedia)
Excellent vid, Marildi. What impressed me, about this first time ‘encounter’, with Rupert, was his grasp of the fluid nature of ‘reality’. As a ‘born’ artist, in my own right, it was ‘easy’ (natural) for me to duplicate (and therefore understand) his presentation, especially that which highlights ‘sensitivity’, as being an essential
requirement for the delivering of a creation, as envisaged by the artist / creator. Whether from the v/p of a/the Supreme Being, or seemingly that of the ‘humble’ artist, that quality (sensitivity), certainly has a bearing, on how ‘that’ message may/ may not be received. I candidly admit to mostly failing in that regard. 🙂
Regarding the actual recorded interplay of the ‘discourse’ between Rupert and his ‘interested’ party, the lengthy comm lags
and lack of acknowledgements, imho, spoke volumes, in terms of their relative capacities, to just BE there, in the moment, (in PT) and simply ‘duplicate’.— the very essence of ACTUAL communication. 🙂
Thanks, Calvin – so glad you appreciated it. I just watched it again and noted the line that I originally thought most related to the discussion here, which was “A real work of art will cut through all cultural conditioning and will deliver its message.” But what you said about his description of what it takes to be an artist was just as applicable. In other words, at both ends of the “comm cycle” of art – the artist and the “viewer” of the art piece – there is a transcendence of the world of relativity.
Thanks for the ack. 😉 And have a great day!
love this vid marildi, thanks for putting it here…i am putting here another one in which some of ” truth’s ” qualities ( in my experience they are that) like transparency, intimacy, love and
passion get manifested…
Marianne – dance is my favorite! For me, the soul of the dancer is more “tangible” than in any other art – naked to the mind’s eye. And the more free that soul is, the more I am INTO it. I BECOME the dancer. 🙂
Actually – naked to the body’s eye too. Watching dance – or doing the dancing – is a good example of how being in the game AND transcending it is the way to go.
Marildi; — “Thanks, Calvin — so glad you appreciated…
C. — I’m thrilled to see the ‘old’ Marildi –back!! The one who I know as super sharp, industrious, and doesn’t hesitate to call an ‘out point’ when she see’s it. But the ‘one’ I appreciate the most, is the lady who sends forth, that light of calm and compassion, that I have glimpsed from our limited interaction..
Life can be just filled with that latter quality, you know, if we simply focus our attention there. 🙂 Pleeeeze, whatever you do though, don’t end up going down that 64 year road I did;
—Taking myself, others, and life, always toooo seriously?? 🙂
How’s this for not serious:
Be sure to catch the part at the end. 😉
Wow, Marildi…. was that really you?? And with moves like that, what a perfect ‘clinch’ as a finale!!! 🙂
Yep, it was the real me. 😉
‘deep stuff’
while i find it true that ‘truth IS NOT honesty’, i also find it true that
Source through the movement of energy is always ‘honest’ (keeps the integrity and harmony of the Whole by karma). Honesty is a quality of truth ‘in change’.
If I understand you, because of change, honesty is relative, conditioned, and impermanent?
Though my com was addressed to Geir, no problem. I have a question: do you have bathroom scales?
“Though my com was addressed to Geir, no problem. I have a question: do you have bathroom scales?”
I do!
ok. take your weight, drink two big glasses of water and take your weight again. then read my com with these definitions in mind again.
tell me what you get.
honest: equitable
quality: essential character, nature
karma: deed, action that has consequences, equilizer in energy
movement
When I understand that truth is relative, conditioned, and impermanent, then I can understand, “Give me lies I can believe in.”
This is one centimeter above the playing of the game, and I don’t mean that cynically or negatively.
Yup 🙂
..in truth, with the ‘right’ perception there is no such thing as a lie…
rather ignorance, that is ignoring ! the Source of our Being, not
giving ‘attention’ to it. Once it gets a real attention, one sees that
every-body and every-thing is the expression of this Source.
One is then ‘playing’ with oneself in a different form of expression.
…and you have also said that earlier “play but not only with
your’self’ “, which to me communicates that one is not only playing
with one ‘self’ (as one manifestation) but with other ‘selves’ (different manifestations) of ‘you’ as ‘source’.
…you cannot ‘mislead’ me in any way Geir that you see and live
from truth…you have expressed it in sooo many ways in your
posts…shall i give here other quotes? Hell, no….as you have been
playing here all along….or, if you haven’t realized-cognited yet that
this is what you have been doing, it’s time to do that by coming
out of any ‘thought’ which is hiding this ‘fact.’ So? What is the truth
about YOU ?
to Geir: the above is ‘you cannot mislead me in any way that you do not see and do not live from and as truth, as you do’ (the need for this correction is that it occasionally happens that i cannot find a word for what i perceive, sometimes it is my imperfect English knowledge… as the com is underlying the words i hope that you got the com as it was meant to be).
Briefly: you live from and as truth.
‘When I understand that truth is relative, conditioned, and impermanent, then I can understand, “Give me lies I can believe in’.
Utter non-sense, meaning ‘non-sensitivity’ = ‘non-perceptivity’.
Understanding is no-mind, in its real sense it is perceiving and
responding to Change. When one is living like Change, no need
for any lies to ‘believe in’.
‘getting the ball and passing the ball’ in its full sense.
If I understand you, then in my lingo this would be OUTSIDE the playing of a game.
..forget about ‘games’ for a while…just be, enjoy it and play…in and out of the instant…
..you can do it to this rhythm if you like
…. or you can try tai chi… (the rhythm is different but the energy is the same)
I have a lifelong familiarity with hyperventilation. Whatever one does to quiet the noise and focus ones attention seems like good placebo to me.
…and Chris, i promise you ( haha, i never make promises but
there are no rules, so there are no exceptions either…)
so: the instant you ‘realize’, ‘feel’ that YOU ARE that pure energy
and you are in love with yourself, with being….You have made it!
off now….talk to you later!
🙂
By forget about the game, do you mean be outside the game? Not within the game?
i will answer but let me ask you a question first: who trims your
beard and moustache?
“i will answer but let me ask you a question first: who trims your beard and moustache?”
My wife.
thanks. next time while she is trimming your beard and moustache,
just be there, silently and enjoy the process instant by instant……
if you have done that so far, please tell me what the experience is
like…
There is a definition (as a noun) of ‘relative’ = one related by kinship, common origin. To me it shows in ‘kin’ as that of the same
‘kind’ in ‘relation’ to another one of the same kind. Meaning: the Source and the Pure Energy is the same. For me even ‘conditioned’ is the same energy, with less movement and less awareness.
If I made that sound complicated, I failed. By relative, I mean compare one thing to another thing. Compare one moment to another moment. Compare one location to another location.
…playing in harmony
“…playing in harmony” Playing by the same rules, within the same set, the same relative truth, the same beliefs, the same lies?
do you have a drum? if you don’t, do you have a pot and two
wooden spoons?
Yes! I have all these!
great! if you like this kitaro music, take your drum and while listening to it play the drum….then share the feel of it here,
if you like…
Mr. Geir Isene, I have a few questions for you, and I hope you will be kind enough to answer. I ask these questions of you respectfully, and I do not intend to mock you for your answers, should you choose to give any. I will understand if you choose not to answer.
In response to a question from the audience at Flag Down 2014, you answered that you would climb Scientology’s bridge all over again and at the same price. Is that true? And if you would do your bridge all over again, do you really believe it is at a fair cost? I think you said you would pay upwards of $250,000 to go up the bridge again, but please forgive me if I am wrong about that figure.
And this is for something you can read free on the internet. All copyright claims aside, do you truly believe that the prices demanded in order to move up the bridge are worth the cost? If so, why? Considering that you can read all of the content for free on the internet, would you still pay a quarter of a million dollars to study it?
Also, can you explain in wog terms what exactly you gained after completing OTVIII in contrast to what you had at OTVII? Can you explain in detail what you gained after completing OTVIII that you did not have before beginning the OT levels at all?
Thank you.
No need to be careful when asking me 🙂
My answer: It’s not about what I can read on the Internet. It’s about the auditing. And the price per hour is on average less than I charge as a consultant. So yes, it’s a fair price – to me. That certainly doesn’t mean it’s fair or even possible for another.
As for my gains on OT 8, read this: https://isene.me/2012/12/10/ot-8/
Geir, I think you should clarify whether or not you would do it all again at the current time, and in the Church of Scientology.
“Geir, I think you should clarify whether or not you would do it all again at the current time, and in the Church of Scientology.”
Why is this very important? Isn’t it more important what you think you would do about all this from this point forward?
Here, folks, we have another example of how Chris finds it necessary to butt into my comm cycle with others, and conjure up something to criticize in every single thing I write.
“Here, folks, we have another example of how Chris finds it necessary to butt into my comm cycle with others, and conjure up something to criticize in every single thing I write.”
It’s a blog Marildi. Send Geir an email if you want it to be private.
Notice that he’s again pretending to miss the point – which is that he continuously harasses me. No one else, just me. On every single post. This is obviously not “just blogging” when it is only one person he does this with, and the comments are never anything but critical.
Alright, I’ll rephrase it. Is it going to make a difference to you and your future plans for self improvement whether Geir would pay money for Scientology again? Will his answer increase or diminish the value of your experience or future plans in and with Scientology?
“Geir, I think you should clarify whether or not you would do it all again at the current time, and in the Church of Scientology.”
What is it that you need?
Geir, I think you should clarify whether or not you would do it all again at the current time, and in the Church of Scientology.
This wreaks of something. You are fishing for a sound bite, aren’t you? If he says yes, yes, and yes, what will happen?
Here we go – more derogatory remarks and insinuations.
My question to Geir had nothing to do with MY future plans. It had to do with the impression the poster or other readers may have gotten – since Geir say anything about the point that I questioned.
And I don’t need your constant tutelage in the form of questions and comments that indicate a smug belief in your own superiority. That too has been going on for years.
I meant “…since Geir DID’NT say anything about the point that I questioneed.”
“My question to Geir had nothing to do with MY future plans. It had to do with the impression the poster or other readers may have gotten”
So you are trying to help them understand better? That’s good, because I think these are good questions. Maybe the posters or readers that you are worrying about would be interested in the answers. I’m sure I would.
Do you mean ‘reeks’ of something? hehe
Maybe there was a double meaning – as in, wreaks havoc. he he
What hath Chris wrought?
Something wroughten in Denmark. Or Norway. 😀
LOL!
It is a wroughten smell that reeks no-one good.
Proper verb conjugation: wreak, wreck, wrought
I don’t think so! I think your conjugation kinda reeks of something wroughten! I could be wrong though. “wreck” kinda reeks among the others. But Middle Engrish was never my strong point…. 🙂
That’s just reekin’ wreckin’ of wroughten rot . I reckon.
OMG. You guys are wreaken the place!
I owe my ability to wreak and wroll to that one drill on the STCC, the one which sorts out mass from significance or something like that….. and I won’t wrest until I have wreaked all wroughten reeking significances down to the ground…. (?)
This mental wrestling is wrough.
Yes. I’m conceding before I get overwrought from overruning this. I need more mass!
LOL – “overwrought.” You wrock! 🙂
Chris and Geir: joke!
I know! 🙂
Sent from Mobile Mail
I hope Geir gets it. 😉
“Geir, I think you should clarify whether or not you would do it all again at the current time, and in the Church of Scientology.”
Why? I didn’t read his question that way.
But sure – I would be more eager than ever to do the whole Bridge from bottom to OT 8 NOW and pay the asking price – and do it in the CoS (given that I hadn’t done it before, that is – as I hate doing such things more than once).
Thanks, but you were already quite clear that you would do it all again and pay the asking price (IF you hadn’t already done it, that is). What I wanted you to clarify was whether you would do it in the CoS in PT. Even though that wasn’t the question you were asked by “Jiminy Cricket,” I thought he may have assumed from your answer that you would do it again in the CoS. I’m pretty sure you would NOT, but I don’t know if HE would be sure of that – because he spoke of “the prices demanded” in his question, and we don’t know his background or how much he knows about you OR the CoS.
If I hadn’t already done the Bridge, I would walk right in to the CoS today and do it. All up to OT 8, at the asking price.
Doing it a second or a third time is of course pointless.
Really, Geir?? You mean you no longer believe the stories you once did, about all the out-tech that goes on? Including the Black Dianetics being done on people when they are sent to Ethics – and also on the 6-month refreshers?
Sure. But: I would still do it all. And now. And in the CoS.
In other words, you would take the risk of getting badly messed up spiritually? And even physically as a result of that?
Exactly! In the name of risk, anti-fragility and spiritual training. It worked on me. I am pretty sure it would work again.
You don’t think things have gotten worse since then? Or if they have, then it isn’t worse to any significant degree?
I don’t care if it has deteriorated much or not. Right now I would welcome the extra spice and adventure that the current internal pressure yields. Looking back, I could have wished for more of that spice.
So would you send people to the CoS to do services? Or would you direct them to Independent practitioners?
I wouldn’t send people anywhere. I thought we were talking about what I personally would have done regarding my own journey up a bridge 😉
Yes, but as I said at the beginning, certain implications could be assumed.
Are you saying, then, that even though you got benefits well worth a quarter million dollars, you wouldn’t want others to take that route and achieve the same?
I didn’t say that. I only said I wouldn’t SEND anyone anywhere. Read what I write, not what you would like to read.
Well, I thought I WAS reading what you wrote but I don’t see any comment where you said you “wouldn’t SEND anyone anywhere.”
And the phrase I used “Are you saying…?” isn’t supposed to be taken literally. It’s just a way of asking if what a person said would imply (something or other) in addition.
But let me put it this way – I’m curious why you WOULDN’T send others where they would achieve the kind of benefits you feel were good enough to be worth a quarter million dollars. Is that a more clear question?
Because I believe that people should find their own path and not be SENT anywhere. And I also happen to think there are better, more efficient and cheaper paths for others to take.
Okay, you may not literally SEND people somewhere, but figuratively speaking you of course do – or you wouldn’t be involved in the things you’re involved in. 🙂 And besides, I’m not sure there is any real difference anyway.
I’m still waiting for that blog post you’ve been promising for some time – and again just recently – as regards these other paths. I think you said there were three. I’ve also come across some other paths that I thought were appealing and workable, but none that I know of that are as efficient as the Bridge, especially the lower Bridge to Clear. And after that, a person would be primed for other paths, leading to higher spiritual levels. This is how I currently see it.
You haven’t replied to the above.
Your assumption is correct. I was asking if he would do it all over again in the CoS, but I didn’t specify that because I thought it was implied in the question. Thanks for making that clear.
Thank you for your reply. I have read your explanation of the OT levels and I have a few more questions for you, if you don’t mind:
I read where you say, “It is not a new concept that people are possessed by lesser spirits” as an attempt to guard against criticism. The common “Scientology is just like any other religion” claim. But do you literally believe in Body Thetans, or do you interpret this in an allegorical way? Do you believe it is a fact that 75 million years ago, Lord Xenu blew up a bunch of aliens here on Earth? Do you believe there was a “Marcab Confederacy”?
And, I’m sorry to switch gears on you here, but I note where you write this:
By your own admission, Hubbard was wrong about an OT level he released and was forced to add more levels to adjust. Considering that, would you say the levels could be corrected and streamlined rather than added upon? Could the number of levels be boiled down to 3, or 4 or 5? Essentially, what I’m asking is, if you believe Scientology actually works in principle, would it still work in a more concise version? Or do you believe these processes work only in the exact, word-for-word way that LRH described?
I’m sorry, I acknowledge that you said you don’t believe in the Body Thetans as they are told. I did mean to edit that part out before I copy/pasted.
Goodie. Then you did read that correctly.
Geir, I don’t take my hat off often for others [I don’t wear any] but for saying the above that you would redo the whole bridge I SALUTE YOU.
As for self, I would claw, crawl, even sell the body [if young] if that would be necessary to get the money.
Jiminy Cricket, you asked: “Do you believe it is a fact that 75 million years ago, Lord Xenu blew up a bunch of aliens here on Earth? Do you believe there was a “Marcab Confederacy”?
Recently I saw a good answer to that question in a post on the South African Blog. I think the poster was correct. based on what I’ve read about remote viewing. Basically, there may have been some “decoding errors” on the part of LRH, although his basic perception itself was correct – and that’s why the concept works for people on OT III. Here’s the post:
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MaBű on May 17, 2014 at 11:58 pm said:
OP: “regardless of whether or not the description of the OT 3 incidents and their consequences is real, I have found that the ‘tech’ of it – the procedure that a person is supposed to do concerning it – works. By that I mean that the procedures produce results.”
.
I think a good way to analyze this situation is assuming that, even though LRH detected something real, his description of the OT 3 incidents has “decoding errors” (an idiom used in remote view).
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Decoding errors occur when a remote viewer perceives something that is real at the target, but the description of this perception is not entirely correct. The perception is real, but the description of it is only partially accurate. For example, if someone describes a city with tall skyscrapers as a mountain range, that is a decoding error. The perception is correct in terms of the topology, but the characterization of it as a mountain range is incorrect. Also, if a person places trees or animals in a barren natural landscape, that is a decoding error. The perception of a natural landscape is correct, but the conscious mind added things that it thought would be normal for a natural landscape.
http://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/05/17/the-scientology-ot-levels-and-the-state-of-ot/comment-page-1/#comment-8153
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Do you honestly believe LRH was able to look 75 million years into the past, and that the only thing he got wrong was his description of what he saw there? I can’t stress enough that I’m not trying to be rude and I’m not trying to mock you. I’m only trying to understand. How can you believe anything like this coming from a Science Fiction writer? I’m paraphrasing someone else’s line here, but if Stephen King suddenly started selling books on how to protect yourself from werewolves, vampires and other monsters, no one would take that seriously. That’s the kinda stuff he invents for a living.
So, why is it that LRH’s followers discard his work as a science fiction writer and blindly follow his “discoveries” as he is describing an event from 75 million years ago? Or what he wrote about anything that happened on another galaxy? He wrote fictional stories like that by trade, but you’re telling me he managed to discover these things for real later on? He had no scientific proof to back any of this up.
Did you, as a Scientologist, ever visit another galaxy? Have you ever heard another Scientologist describe their explorations of other galaxies millions of years ago, and did you find anything credible in what they were saying?
J.C.: “So, why is it that LRH’s followers discard his work as a science fiction writer and blindly follow his ‘discoveries’ as he is describing an event from 75 million years ago?”
Only for the simple reason that it works for them – and that it has also worked for quite a few others. People disagree about how or why it works, but some do believe the OT III story is literally true – although not all of those agree that LRH got all the details right, such as the dates, for example.
I remember one poster stated that she had not yet done OT III or heard anything about the Xenu story (as is usual for those in the CoS), but when she was on the L’s she ran that very incident and even stated the name Xenu to her auditor. Later, when she did OT III, it confirmed for her what she had recalled in the L’s session.
Jim, I guess you can call me the resident critic. Others will tell you that with me you are preaching to the choir. This is an unusual OP in that it seems to break ground we didn’t already cover.
Yup. That space opera isn’t particularly a fun lie for me to believe anymore either, but it used to be. There were other lies I couldn’t believe in more so than the sci fi. Lies like I couldn’t be with my family, or that the future of the human race was more important than my daughter’s education, health, and welfare.
Then through the years, the rest of the lies weren’t believable anymore either, because they weren’t fun. Placebo at its heart is a lie we can believe in.
I find it serendipitous that you’ve shown up just now at this moment on this blog.
Transactional Analysis categorizes ‘games’ into 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degree games. In 3rd degree games there is likely to be tissue damage.
Perhaps we could similarly categorize ‘lies’ according to 3 or 4 degrees of ‘reality’. The most painful ‘lies’ are the lies that are most ‘real’ – where you actually lose an arm, a leg, a job, a house, or family member(s). Kind of a gradient scale of lies…. Or maybe it’s already been done….? 🙂 But the distinctions are not clearly drawn in the English I learned…..
Where would Pinocchio fit in? Btw, did you know that Jiminy Cricket was Pinocchio’s conscience? …OMG! 🙂
Pinocchio failed to observe that he had observed what he observed. At other times, he failed to observe that he claimed to observe that which he had not observed.
It’s a good thing you are a word clearer, mar. There are probably a lot of people stuck on that part of that bulletin. Me included.
It’s all a matter of which definition for which “observe” is observed, is observed.
Even more serious, however, is the serendipity that Chris observed. Jiminy Cricket – the conscience of Pinocchio – arrives on the scene on the topic of….lies!
I’m a day late and a dollar short as usual. That was my nick-name at one place where I worked….
Let us not be ‘serious’ about The Cricket! Let us instead Rejoice! For we are perhaps approaching Theta! Is that not the ultimate Source of Serendipity?
“For we are perhaps approaching Theta! Is that not the ultimate Source of Serendipity?”
Indubitably!
Okay, let us Rejoice. And let there be nothing but “crickets” about The Cricket. 🙂
Well I guess I’ll be hittin’ the hay shortly. It is almost 2 am here and I am working on going to bed earlier than I used to do.
It was a pleasure wreaking all that reeking havoc with you! And even Chris chimed in, that staid old rascal!
It was f-reeking fun. But you misspelled wrascal. 😉
I sure did misspell it! A sure sign I yam up past my bedtime; or that I did not eats me spinach like I wuz supposed to!
Popeye was deep. “I am what I am what I am.”
Spelling correction: “I yam what I yam what I yam.”
And Popeye observed what he observed he observed.
G’nite Val.
I like this.
Whatever your concept of ‘placebo’ is, I have never been able to align it with any definition of the word I could find. The way you use it, one might as well call your car key a ‘placebo’, but if you tried to use my car key to start your car, I doubt it would work.
Maybe it will to use placebo in a phrase like answering the question, “Placebo for what?”
You say ‘placebo’ out of a stubborn refusal to simply say that postulates work. The fact is, postulates are effective only when a person is able to make effective postulates. Otherwise they don’t work, and neither does ‘placebo’. You placebo guys are still mixed up about cause and effect, IMHO.
Like that thing about ‘mental constructs’ vis-a-vis ‘actuality’. You blew from those posts in the last thread. There is nothing ‘abstract’ about ‘actuality’. The so-called “church” actually did break up your family. Nothing ‘abstract’ about that! It was not a mental construct you experienced. It really did happen, I am sorry to say. And I am sorry it happened.
You are perhaps the “valkov-to-come”. But right now I am far more capable of criticizing anyone and everyone here, than you are. It is only out of the kindness of my heart that I often wrefrain from doing so! You are merely the wanna-be.
Now, separate out the truth from the lies in my post! Before I wreak more! ( Clue: I left something unsaid, above, about your family.)
I use the word placebo to mean what happens when you decide a therapy will make you better and your belief makes it so. Is the placebo effect real or is it in your head? Well it is both. I am steering clear of the word postulate for the purpose of not blending it with those who may have the illusion of control and think their postulates can violate natural law. But if you like that word and we are communicating then I don’t care which word you use.
I don’t know why we high-center (stick) on talking about our experience of the real world. Possibly because we don’t all experience reality the same. When I say abstract, I only mean what you think about what you are experiencing and not whether or not what you are experiencing is real. When I say real I guess I mean what can be measured, weighed, etc.,. Your example of my family problems because of the Sea Org is of course, real. How and what I think about that reality is my abstract. Here’s an example from Viktor Frankl, ““Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.” And another, “When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.” Is that better?
So there are processes going on about us and within us and we are integrated within and without those processes. How we abstract those processes is for me a layer on top of the OP. The OP actually delves deeper. It is the outside look at games. I like how it starts out like a prayer.
“Decision” equals “belief”? Don’t know as that’s true for me.
Processes do go on. Heart beats, sun rises and sets, the Great Lakes turn over every few years…(they actually do) etc.
I do not believe in the ‘placebo effect’ the way you seem to mean it. I have known too many people with cancer who supposedly ‘believed’, and whose Doctors supposedly believed, the ‘treatments’ would ‘work’, but the cancer grew and the people died anyway.
My suspicion is the Doctors knew the actual stats about their treatments and were ‘lying’ and the patients actually knew the Docs were lying and felt wholeheartedly the cancer was ‘safe’ from any cure and they were going to die anyway.
So I think this placebo and belief business is not what it seems.
Many years ago I quit smoking with no withdrawal symptoms and no problems at all, simply by making a decision. But there was context, and it was a simple decision not involving any ‘treatments’ or outside agencies to believe in.
One might ‘believe’ that scourging one’s self with a whip everyday will make one ‘better’ in some way, but actually one gets an infection from the raw wounds and dies…. where’s the placebo then? Perhaps that was one’s actual intent the whole time?
I think the truth is placebo can apply, depending on where one is on the 8008 continuum, so really, substituting ‘placebo’ for some other words is no progress at all. It is a lateral evolution, which is really what virtually all biological evolution is – endless variations on the same themes, with not a transcendence of the same-old same-old among them.
Whew. That sounds gloomy, doesn’t it?
Could be gloomy if we abstract it so, which is really my point. To me, mental and physical are subsets of a larger set – the universe. I don’t know if that is one step or what, I just think everything we know and everything that is, is part of one large system. I don’t even know or care how large that system is, it just seems there is always something larger or smaller.
I’m not making a case for the power of positive thinking, prosperity Christianity, nor cures for cancer. I’m making a case that we can exercise our minds and we can get control of what we think about, and that we can live happily regardless of our circumstances.
If you are not making a case for ‘thinking’, positive or negative or anything in between, then I don’t see the use of the word ‘placebo’ at all.
“A placebo (/pləˈsiboʊ/ plə-see-boh; Latin placēbō, “I shall please” from placeō, “I please”) is a simulated or otherwise medically ineffectual treatment for a disease or other medical condition intended to deceive the recipient. Sometimes patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived or actual improvement in a medical condition, a phenomenon commonly called the placebo effect.”
It seems to me you need a different word.
“It seems to me you need a different word.”
Placebo doesn’t alter what is real or physical, it alters what is held in place by thought, by mental attitude. If Marildi’s statistic is valid, then about 30% of physical ailments are held in place by attitude, mental construct, however you want to say it. Then there are the peripheral complaints to the real organic ailment. My tinitus began bothering me a few years ago to the point where my anxiety about was rev’ing up. I sat myself down a few times and through looking at my complaint enough I was able to reason out that the tinitus was not a problem with my hearing exactly and that I could hear pretty good. So after that, I stopped listening to the cicadas” in my head and I have not had further trouble with the tinitus. Is the buzzing still there? Yes. But I do not need to pay attention to it as that part of it is under my control. This is one layer more than placebo, but you get my meaning?
I guess we’re not on the same page here. Medicos themselves include actual physical changes(cures, remissions, etc) sometimes resulting from administering ‘placebos’, not just ‘changes of attitude’ towards ‘unchangeable’ physically ‘real’ conditions.
“I guess we’re not on the same page here.”
Right. I will rephrase. Statistically, placebo and nocebo have a measurable effect. Why is this?
Chris,
“”Statistically, placebo and nocebo have a measurable effect. Why is this?”
if I may put in 2cents?
It is the belief that allows to happen that cure and nothing more: if I will believe in something now 100% because same or similar has happened before that same idea given now will work because I remembered subconsciously that it has worked before.
Yes, that’s what I am saying. But what about Marildi’s 70% that has no effect? What about their belief? I have to think that taking a sugar pill for a broken leg will not mend it. On the other hand, IF Marildi’s 30% have an ailment held in place by a consideration, and IF they believe in the placebo, then I believe they would experience a good effect from that.
“But what about Marildi’s 70% that has no effect? What about their belief?”
Because it’s a probabilistic statistical reality, as per the above video..
Note – what the interviewer refers to as “part 2” is actually Part 4 of the whole series. By “part 2” he means the second part of this particular interview of the series. So here’s “part 2” the continuation of the above interview, in which he talks more about quantum physics, etc..
Marildi.. what makes you believe that the Universe runs by rules? The energy yes it is the same.. but the beliefs are not balanced out equally.
Hehehe so they have surveyed too many people who don’t have a belief in that. so they gotten 70%. But who takes placebo for broken leg? maybe to kill the pain.. that I can see, but to heal the bone… well I am not on expert on these. The bone will heal no matter what because we do have that basic belief in place already.
Oops – I should have said “as per the video below”. This one is the second part. So in this thread they are in reverse order.
A sugar pill may not heal a broken leg however it may act as an ‘assist’ and speed the healing, just as other kinds of ‘assists’ do.
The other angle is that ALL injuries contain a consideration that there is an injury in existence. If this consideration is removed and replaced by the consideration that no injury exists, or some such, then the injury will likely heal faster, yes?
So my point is that replaced a word such as postulate or consideration by a word such as ‘placebo’ is pointless, unless it describes specific considerations, so why are e bothering?
LRH described it all decades ago. Saying ‘placebo’ does not add any new information at all about the mechanics of how it all works.
You have nailed it. That’s good.
“Statistically, placebo and nocebo have a measurable effect. Why is this?”
I’ll throw my 2 cents into the pot (sorry about the mixed metaphor 🙂 ).
The answer is that basically, we live in a probabilistic reality, proven by quantum physics. Watch the last few minutes of this video from about 16:30. Or the whole 20 minutes if that much is too condensed.
Nocebo is the newer concept, and it has already grown somewhat elaborate; There are at least 3 different situations currently being differentiated among by researchers. If they keep going they will need a new word themselves! So, which, if any, of these definitions do you have in mind…..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
But what we are talking about is precisely the alteration of ‘real, physical’ things and conditions.
“A placebo (/pləˈsiboʊ/ plə-see-boh; Latin placēbō, “I shall please” from placeō, “I please”) is a simulated or otherwise medically ineffectual treatment for a disease or other medical condition intended to deceive the recipient. Sometimes patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived OR ACTUAL IMPROVEMENT IN A MEDICAL CONDITION, a phenomenon commonly called the placebo effect.”
When Geir, for instance, talks about ‘placebo’ I believe he is referring to something quite different from what you mean – he is stating his belief that basically ALL ‘effects’ are the result of a person’s ‘belief’ or ‘postulate’ in a fundamental sense.
“When Geir, for instance, talks about ‘placebo’ I believe he is referring to something quite different from what you mean – he is stating his belief that basically ALL ‘effects’ are the result of a person’s ‘belief’ or ‘postulate’ in a fundamental sense.”
Maybe. I’ll let him answer that. What I believe is that what you experience belongs to you alone. Our free will seems to extend not very far beyond that. If I get control of that, of my ability to experience, and I develop the intuition to estimate and moderate the types of effects that I create, I will have become all the OT I can be. ( I am eating last night’s banana split that I found in the freezer as I write that. Sweet.)
According to me, there are 3 things that can happen here: I experience something. Then, I can make a facsimile of it, knowingly or unknowingly(automaticity), or I can develop some kind of ‘abstract’ or ‘mental construct’ of it, and then view this construct if I can ‘remember’ it. I use the words here to differentiate between degrees of immediacy, or ‘degrees of separation from’. This means how much ‘via’ is involved.
My main point is that what I experience can be immediate, not a ‘mental construct’ of any kind, unless you view or define ALL experience as a ‘mental construct’. I am not of that school. In fact, I don’t really involve myself in looking at all these differentiations very deeply at all, as perhaps someone like Vinnie does.
I am not trying to be so complicated. Something happens, something happens, and something happens, what is the upshot?
J..C… when you get auditing and the most difficult concept is to understand that what we see in session HAS BEEN REAL, It was not just on imagination. that it has happened!!
It has taken me more than few sessions going back on the track to believe in that, yes it has happened!
We all have, we all live in different Universes…what is true for one person because it has happened to that person, that is not necessarily true real for me. This is a very very big Universe and we have lived in many different planets. Our experiences can be very different.
I, on the other hand, believe LRH was on drugs and “dubbed in” Xenu when he stopped by Lisbon on his way to the Canary Islands (Xenu being the name of a part of Lisbon). OT 3 works because of placebo and strongly so because the person starts doing some real mental gymnastics – and we know training and gymnastics to produce great results.
“Mental gymnastics” may be a good way of describing it – on the order of what ancient myths (e.g. myths from India, Rome and Greece, with all their gods and demons, etc.) are capable of bringing about for individuals. There has certainly been a lot of testimony over the centuries giving credence to the idea that myths can lead people to awakening, to enlightenment – and to cognitions that give the kind of gains you yourself had.
Precisely so.
Then we agree on this. And to me, it infers the genius of LRH – because some people need to believe the myths are literally true in order for them to work; while others, more conceptual, will take them with a grain of salt and they work for those people too.
Because it’s all placebo, make-believe, and: Give us lies we can believe in.
Placebo, by double- and triple-blind scientific test, only works about 30% of the time.
On a deepr level, Marildi. Much deeper.
I think it’s well expressed in the video. See if you don’t agree.
The problem I have with such statements is that it is no more meaningful to say ‘It’s ALL placebo’ than it is to say “NONE of it is placebo”.
Anyway, who is to GIVE us these lies we are looking for? Isn’t the deciding factor one’s ability to believe, rather than the ‘believability’ of whatever lies one views, knowing it is ALL lies anyway?
This relates to the concept of ‘evidence’, which means ‘that which justifies (some or any) belief’. So for you, the lies you can believe in are likely to be those lies for which there is some scientific evidence, the more the better, right? Or, perhaps it just has to really grab your fancy?
But in the end it is still you who makes a choice of some kind. Perhaps in the final analysis what a person chooses to not-know is arbitrary.
Yes, yes, and yes.
Sent from Mobile Mail
Thanks for the clarification on the derivation of ‘Xenu’. Geir. Like the Mental gymnastics analogy too!
PS. how’s your own P.training / diet regimen shaping up? 🙂
Your question reveals that you did not actually read my explanations fully as linked.
But I will reiterate in brief: No, I do not believe in body thetans. Or Xenu. Or the Marcabians. And – I believe anything will work as long as the subject strongly believe it will. Some things are easier to believe, though – especially regimens that smacks of science, that has strong structure, cost a lot in blood and sweat and money and where everyone around you are throughly convinced. Like the peak of Christianity, or Buddhism in Tibet, or Scientology in the bubble, or… a lot of other stuff.
No, I did read the entirety of it, and I apologize for the mistake. I did write that after only reading your paragraph on OT3, and I meant to edit it before copy/pasting from my notepad. Could you answer my second line of questions, though?
JC: “By your own admission, Hubbard was wrong about an OT level he released and was forced to add more levels to adjust. Considering that, would you say the levels could be corrected and streamlined rather than added upon? Could the number of levels be boiled down to 3, or 4 or 5? Essentially, what I’m asking is, if you believe Scientology actually works in principle, would it still work in a more concise version? Or do you believe these processes work only in the exact, word-for-word way that LRH described?”
Me: 1) Either or is fine – or something entirely different and better and more efficient. 2) Sure, like OT 2, OT 5/6/7, OT 8. 3) Perhaps. 4) Certainly not.
Usually what I hear from ex-members or indies is that the parts of Scientology that worked for them were related to the basic concepts of Dianetics. The 1-on-1 auditing, mostly. This is easily understandable, as it’s basically a form of talk therapy. It can be exhilarating to get something off your chest and to talk about your troubles with another human being–with or without an a-meter.
Originally, people were allowed and even encouraged to simply read a copy of Dianetics and use it for therapy with a willing participant. You weren’t required to be a member of any group or to pay exorbitant sums of money for auditing in any specific building. Hubbard himself recommended this. Does this not work today? If one had a checklist of questions to ask and knew how to read and properly record the needle fluctuations on an e-meter, would this not be adequate auditing?
You speak of placebos and “lies we can believe in,” but why are the lies necessary to the process of auditing? Why should anyone be required to pay to hear a space opera about a galactic tyrant from a distant galaxy millions of years ago for auditing to work? If it really works, it should work without having any additional nonsense attached to it.
And seeing as engrams are so central to Scientology, how can anyone justify the fact that Hubbard is blatantly lying to them? Is being lied to a good experience or is it a bad, engram-causing experience? Does it not implant an entirely new engram in your mind?
JC you are asking many intelligent questions but really if you were more familiar with the basic concepts of scientology the answers are obvious. LRH spoke/wrote a lot about truth/lies and many other dichotomies.
Actually Ken Wilbur did too, as in his book “A Brief History of Everything”, I believe it is called. LRH lectures from the mid 1950s, like The Phoenix Lectures, cover a lot of this ground. Some of those were published in a book of the same name (The Phoenix Lectures), which interestingly enough, I understand the Church itself no longer sells. You can probably pick up a copy cheap through Amazon.
As for a list of questions to use, those do exist, and they can be done with or without an emeter by any 2 interested people, or even by one person alone without any meter. I say ‘those’ because there are a number of lists and they are all contained in a book titled “Self-analysis”, along with the instructions for using them. It can be more fun to do them with another or others, round-robin style. No ‘church’ fees, records, or administration required or ‘organization’ required! Again, you can find this through Amazon for a few bucks.
Additionally, many of LRH’s ‘group processing’ sessions were recorded and you can find these online or on CD, but they are usually part of sets of lectures. But perhaps searching for something like “scientology group processing” (Cds or ‘downloads’) might yield some up.
Anyway, unlike Geir, you can see I have no reluctance to ‘telling someone where to go’ to find specific materials, if I know where.
I am married to a librarian and I think I have a bit of reference librarian in me by nature anyway.
Hi Jim,
If I may interject my opinion, at this moment, on this OP and at this time, not as a panacea, but as a simple and deep commentary on the human experience, we live-lives of abstraction. In this sense, by abstraction, I’m saying, “What do you make of it?” as in, “What do you make it out to be?” And the reason I put it out like that is because all you’re ever gonna have and all you are ever going to know is, “What you make it out to be.” It is existential. It is not elaborately beautiful, but it is beautiful in its simplicity, if you like simplicity.
“A lie we can believe in” is not meant as a negative nor is it particularly talking about lying. It means that we lives lives of abstraction. My abstraction is not your abstraction, etc.,. It’s just my look at what is turning out to be an unusual OP.
So spend your time enjoying your time. As my wife says, “Have a good time, all the time.” That’s all that ever really belongs to us. ~ Chris
Hi Jiminy Cricket. Intriguing questions asked of Geir. I have followed the ‘thread’. through from your ‘arrival’, to present comments. It is interesting that you have given no background, whatsoever, on yourself, up to this point. Does your choice of ‘monicker’, ‘Jiminy Cricket’ (JC), have any bearing on your anonymity, I wonder? 🙂
–Now to my point: Your comment above — …..”how can anyone justify the fact that Hubbard is blatantly lying to them? Is being lied to a good experience or is it a bad, engram-causing experience? Does it not implant an entirely new engram in your mind?”
One it tempted to now ask you: Was ‘being lied to’, about ‘Father Christmas’, ‘the Tooth Fairy’, ‘The Bogey man’, –or any other “lies that one can/could believe in”, anything necessarily ‘sinister’, in intent? –(and yes, the ‘intender’, would certainly have relevance, as to whether they sincerely wished to assist (HELP) or to harm, here.) (Do not Geir’s results, speak for themselves?)
You then go on to ask: “Does it not implant an entirely new engram in your mind?” — I ask whether you have an accurate definition of the term, ‘engram’, as the basis of you question?
Perhaps, ‘Jiminy Cricket’, you would be now prepared to grace us with some answers of your own?? 🙂
Sincerely,
Calvin B.Duffield Durban, South Africa.
Interested, Chris? Hardly. The interminable slanging matches that have managed to fixate mostly only two participants (opponents) at a time, on this blog, (as well as many others, btw,) seldom hold much interest for said readers and posters, for any length of time, in my honest opinion. .
The simple recognition in/of allowing the “participating other”, to just “be right”, according to their view/stand point, is ignored completely, in favor of the ongoing fixated game. of ‘proving the other wrong’.
This cluster of ‘fixations’, (imo), makes more of a statement on the pertinent ‘sanity’ of the fixation/s, as held by the participants.
That is simply to say, if we wish to participate in ‘discussions’,
we need to keep in mind, the simple SANE formula of communication. ie, An acknowledgement is actually and END/ COMPLETION, to a cycle of communication.
Chris, we ALL get caught up in/carried away, with the above ‘fixation/s’ from time to time, since the heat generated, seems to compromise any sense to it. But at the end of the day, bro’, for the sake of ‘sanity’, we do better by just ‘letting it go’.
Does that answer satisfy, bro’ ?? 🙂
Yes, I understand your point.
M:“Geir, I think you should clarify whether or not you would do it all again at the current time, and in the Church of Scientology.”
CT:”Why is this very important? Isn’t it more important what you think you would do about all this from this point forward?”
Chris, there are times, like with this reply, that I see you manifesting a valence of protector to “Simon Bolivar”. I don’t think Geir needs your protection and he has said as much in earlier postings, so unless he solicits help, let him fight his own battles.
As for your relative truth conflict with Marildi, she wrote:
“And I would say that games can be played best when both relative and fundamental truths are acknowledged and experienced.”
If you look at the metaphor Geir was playing with (acceptable lies), what M. wrote is a philosophical extension of “acceptable lies”.
Those of the Scientology persuasion might even see a bit of a smile behind the “acceptable lies” metaphor and rush out with the applicable axioms.
I believe that right now we are playing within the framework of relative truths that were created on a framework of basic truths.
To put this as simply as possible, the physical laws of the physical universe are true within observational limits within our observable universe. They are relative truths. But that is no different from saying that the laws of football are true within a football playing field. Yet in another stadium a different game with different rules may be played. Different relative truths with at least one common, fundamental truth: we like games.
Another common thing is that we, the willing audience, immerse ourselves into one of these playing fields and participate in the game by suspending belief about the true (un)importance of the game. Is the game important or unimportant? To any particular participant (player or observer) it may be either or neither.
By now you probably see that I’m simply getting around to us beings as players in bodies where the actual lie about the actual reality of a body is made a relative truth by its perceived duration – that being a lifetime. But it makes for a game.
On your way out of the stadium, please take the stairway marked “6 FEET UNDER” and turn out the lights on your way. In the meantime, enjoy the acceptable lies.
What an artistic post. This man COMMUNICATES. 🙂
Marildi do you know ”why on artistic post communicates? what is the reason behind that?
Yes, I think so. It’s because the artist with his words or music, or whatever, communicates so well that we as beings are reached on a deeper level than this physical reality. It’s like that incredible piano player you gave a link for one time.
Marildi… not the music or words which can be perceived by the senses, but it is on energy level its clarity which is in fact the cause why people LOVBE IT! But they ”blame it on what they see or hear or touch.
That makes sense. The words or music are just the vias. Of course in this reality frame, we at least some of us need those vias to get the “energy.”
That’s all the “2 cents” I have for now. I’ll be back later. 😉
Yup, I get it. But it’s not about Geir, it’s about me. Geir is currently a metaphor for myself. Marildi is a metaphor for my experience with COS. I’m working this out.
‘ i am working this out’ blabla… ‘show me the proof’
please read my coms to you on ‘playing the drum’ and ‘trimming
your beard and moustache’…DO them and put here a photo or/and tell me how it was going and what you were feeling…
Chris, I have to say this…. it’s plainly in view to me, that you really are (in the process of) working this out.. At this rate, any ‘sages’ knocking around at the crest, better get used to having some additional company, eh?? 😉
Yup. 🙂
It is uncomfortable as I do not particularly enjoy being a jackass.
Change is coolness 🙂
Let me put it this way, why did you participate in the recent protest speaking out against the Church?
I just like the opportunity to speak to people. I spoke about my experiences. Not so much anti as JustHowItWasForMe.
Okay, “not SO MUCH anti” – but what did you say that you felt WAS anti?
Just told about my experiences. Just like on this blog. Nothing more.
Right – but you have told so many! What’s one of the worst things you told them at the protest?
I don’t remember such things. I say and it is gone. I write and it is gone. Read my blog and find out for yourself 😉
Oh, sorry! I thought that was a reply to me.
Give us what we need HEHEHE 🙂 go create what you need, create your own wonderland!
Realization:
For years I have been wondering what are our IMMAGINATIONS those thoughts when we are wishing for something, something beautiful, and in these beautiful imaginations we are construction creating something independently new, original and usually these Imagined make-beliefs are not connected to anything special, but these creations make us feel good and we are always victors.
And these Imaginations so called visualizations day-dreams we are fully aware that they are just that and we also know that they never become real.. will never ever happen, materialize.
But they feel good to have them and these day-dreams are our own and no one can touch and destroy them.
Within these Daydreams we are free, and we are free thinkers, we have free will to create whatever we desire, whatever extravagant we want and with that we have..
Realization: these daydreams are outside of the MEST, they are not controlled by the implanted forced on beliefs and they can’t become real because we were made to believe and we have agreed that only implanted realities are true, and anything outside of these implanted believes these are just ILLUSIONS and therefore not important, don’t have value and most of all truly not real.
In fact it is reversed… the freedom of Daydreaming is the creation of Free Will.
Have a good one!
You too Elizabeth.
🙂
some quotes on wisdom
There is little comfort in the wise.
Wisdom and folly are equal before the face of Infinity, for Infinity
knows them not.
The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself
a fool at least once a month.
…and i like this: use what talents you possess. the woods would
be very silent if no birds sang there except those that sang best.
…and one of my old favourites…you remember the ‘change’ started by your origination-com….carry on…and please tell
about your experience too if you feel like doing that bit of ‘homework’…
Ok. Thank you.
Chris, you being a jackass at times is more than made up for by your response at a time like this. I really admire you for that.
Thank you Marildi. Very gracious of you.
Well, I meant it. You reminded me of this:
There is so much good in the worst of us,
And so much bad in the best of us,
That it hardly behooves any of us
To talk about the rest of us.
– Edward Wallis Hoch,
2ndxmr
hi ! great to have you ‘back’ ! i am joining marildi !
As for the meaning of ‘relative’, for me it means ‘in relation to’…
and my answer to ‘Is the game important or unimportant’ is in
the following vid…from 1:30…. there IS just BE-ing and playing
in the moment…and also, yes, we can enter and play games knowingly…and it is also possible to realize that one has chosen
this ‘human’ ‘game’ knowingly..from then on it is ’embodying’ truth..
…where is the ‘lie’ in it from then on when one knows in experience
that it starts from Source, one is a ‘spirit’ and now uses a ‘mind’ and a body?
J..C.. “6 feet under” hehehe that one is for bodies and not for those who create.
Surprise – surprise get ready for anothetr round which is called ”life” because you will have one.. that is a guaranteed!.
2ndx.. I thought that was. JC’S. post. well, you never will go 6′ under 🙂 My duplication is shut to hell. I think I need to redo the Bridge once more!
Hi Marianne. Thanks for the warm welcome.
MT:”……where is the ‘lie’ in it from then on when one knows in experience that it starts from Source, one is a ‘spirit’ and now uses a ‘mind’ and a body?”
I would think that “…when one knows in experience that it starts from Source” one may have a strong inkling – a strong idea – of a fundamental truth but until one is just the Source with no connection to this game, then one is still contributing to the acceptable lie.
When you’re stuck in the game, repeating “I’m not in the game… I’m not in the game.” doesn’t take you out of the game. Getting out of the game likely requires really knowing all the rules of the game – both the published rules and the unpublished rules. Knowing about the rule book is not the same as knowing the rule book.
Hi 2ndxmr, Just like to say I enjoy your ‘arrival’ and comments. Also, by keeping going, you’re in for some ‘enlightenment/s’, beyond your current ‘expectations’. Such is the experience resulting from contact/interaction on Geir’s blog 🙂
–Calvin aka ‘Racing’ 🙂
Hey Racing, 2ndxmr was here and posted a’plenty before you were even a glint in Geir’s eye. He just takes sabbaticals periodically. 🙂
Gotcha, Dancer Extraordinaire! ‘Was not to know that he was up to ‘speed’ on the Guru’s latest ‘fuck it’ outlook (sorry!). VERY sharp ‘point’ (owwwch!!!) taken though!! (seriously serious stuff:!!) (still wincing!!.. rub,rub a dub-dub, though it don’t help this bub!) 🙂
Racer, I didn’t mean it to come across like that! I just meant to let you know that 2x is actually a veteran on this blog, and I thought you would get a kick out of “…before you were even a glint in Geir’s eye.” 🙂 Should have put the smiley right after that sentence. I trust that you have long since “let go.” 😉
Love, Dancer ♪ ♫ ♪
Lookit that will ya? Marildi’s baaaaack! (big time/swing time!)
LOL!…. was just testing ya! Can no longer sweat the small stuff!
…..Gave that up TWO years ago! 🙂
2ndX.. I had a huge realization which I have not written up yet.. LRH talked about exteriorization – interiorization. I have run those item and related concept I could find and had huge wins -many cognitions but today I stumbled on FLOATHING..huge item -hold tremendous amount of complicated other realities.
Floating is going exterior. but of course there are immense amount of reasons one don’t do that. Best to you E.
2ndx…”“I’m not in the game… I’m not in the game.” doesn’t take you out of the game.”
Yes.. people don’t understand that knowing the words, speaking the lingo of” spirituality” do not mean experiencing.
Learned stuff stays with the body, buried 6′ under..
2ndxmr
thanks, i get what you are saying…i like these aspects too, what
do you say to them?
Here’s something to believe in: CLICK HERE
Right.. she believes. so it happens for her… now from this you can understand why auditing can work for those who believe in the TECH.
“now from this you can understand why auditing can work for those who believe in the TECH.”
By the gods, you have hit the nail on the head!
The desire to achieve is one of the most powerful motivators.. to reach for the goal has changed this Planet and the Universe. And don’t think that do not apply for auditing hours.. The hours increase as one advances, the fire to know is so strong that it over rides all other activities. they stop existing and in the last half of the 41 years the hours become nearly doubled what you have counted out. How that can be done… that is not imaginable for those who have not done that activity. trust me, the hours were put in.
“. . . the fire to know is so strong that it over rides all other activities.”
You reached your goal. That is super!
In whatever direction one wishes too, Chris….
“Great goals make you stretch. They absolutely can take you well beyond anything you could possibly imagine. The most important part of setting great goals is not the goals themselves, but the person you become in the stretch.” — Fran Briggs.
Great quote!
Sure is, Chris….. here’s another trusty ‘steed’, we can ‘ride’ till sunset! … “Age…. is just a number.” 😉
Before we stultify ourselves, here is a song from a much underappreciated genius singer/songwriter named Tim Buckley. He died at 28. This song is about his first marriage and first child, which he could not handle and walked away from…..
HEY!
Anybody checked out Chris Shelton’s blog?
He’s the new “Geir Isene”!
http://mncriticalthinking.com/
Alanzo
Hey… what we are looking for is a NEW ALANZO so let us know when that miracle will happen and give us a link to that miracle posting … but Geir is just fine [ most of the time] as he is…we don’t need a new one… We are just getting to know [we think] this one here!
“A NEW ALONZO”! Hear! Hear! lol :-)Remember this song? It’s the dawning of the Age of Alonzo, the Age of Alonzo…..
A NEW Alonzo? I remember another song: “That’ll be the day.” 🙂
I actually do think Al has changed over the past few years. He has grown wiser and mellower.
Okay. That might explain the recent sound of “crickets.” 😉
(Note that the band was called “Buddy Holly and the Crickets 🙂 )
Hehehe… The hot sconces were fantastic, light as clouds, and the jam and fresh dollop of wimped cream. smeared on the top well shear delight.. of course the stars of the day were the tall bearded Irises, they were admired for their beauty, every one of them [7 different color group] and other flowers to were showing off, we have 100 Rhodes and azaleas alone in this garden and most of them are in bloom.!! It has been perfect. The guest loved it all.
Wonderful way to spend a Sunday afternoon! I’ll soon be going out to enjoy the gorgeous weather we’re having here in Northern California. Doubt I’ll see any garden as spectacular as yours, though. 😉
Knock on wood, mar! I like the sound of crickets for awhile. They beat the “sturm und drang” we sometimes hear…. 🙂 What did LRH call it? The “mellerdrammer”? 🙂
Mellerdrammer fer sure. 🙂 And what a switch from “sturm and drang” to “sweet and wistful”! Wistful is the word. I’m going to post the lyrics.
I was thinking of Al’s “sturm & drang” actually. Buckley was perhaps 20 years old at the time, and I think the song and his delivery of it are remarkable.
I remember… ! 🙂
Here’s a sweet and wistful early song by Tim Buckley. The lyrics are under the video, on Youtube
Lyrics:
Once I was a soldier
And I fought on foreign sands for you
Once I was a hunter
And I brought home fresh meat for you
Once I was a lover
And I searched behind your eyes for you
And soon there’ll be another
To tell you I was just a lie
And sometimes I wonder
Just for a while
Will you remember me
And though you have forgotten
All of our rubbish dreams
I find myself searching
Through the ashes of our ruins
For the days when we smiled
And the hours that ran wild
With the magic of our eyes
And the silence of our words
And sometimes I wonder
Just for a while
Will you remember me
Thanks mar!
Here’s more from the 1960s, this time from Richard and Mimi Farina. Tragically Richard also died young, I believe he was just 21! And Mimi was I think Joan Baez’s sister. Richard has just written a book, “Been down so long it looks like up to me”. The protagonist’s name was “Gnossos”…..
Anyway this is a beautiful and also wistful song.
Oh boy, nostalgia night.
If you want a lover
I’ll do anything you ask me to
And if you want another kind of love
I’ll wear a mask for you
If you want a partner
Take my hand
Or if you want to strike me down in anger
Here I stand
I’m your man
If you want a boxer
I will step into the ring for you
And if you want a doctor
I’ll examine every inch of you
If you want a driver
Climb inside
Or if you want to take me for a ride
You know you can
I’m your man
Ah, the moon’s too bright
The chain’s too tight
The beast won’t go to sleep
I’ve been running through these promises to you
That I made and I could not keep
Ah but a man never got a woman back
Not by begging on his knees
Or I’d crawl to you baby
And I’d fall at your feet
And I’d howl at your beauty
Like a dog in heat
And I’d claw at your heart
And I’d tear at your sheet
I’d say please, please
I’m your man
And if you’ve got to sleep
A moment on the road
I will steer for you
And if you want to work the street alone
I’ll disappear for you
If you want a father for your child
Or only want to walk with me a while
Across the sand
I’m your man
If you want a lover
I’ll do anything you ask me to
And if you want another kind of love
I’ll wear a mask for you
For those who don’t know, it’s Leonard Cohen singing “I’m your Man”
Oh mar, I’m gonna be lost in the corridors of Youtube for a long time! There is soooo much good music, sooooo many good songs written and sung…..
well it’s past my bedtime again so off I go…..
I know – SO much!
Okay, go get your beauty sleep, gramps. 🙂
Just a note about the lu=yrics to “Once I Was” – in th e 2nd verse I believe it has come down through time with a wrong word in there – listening to it closely it sounds to me like he sings “And though you have forgotten
All of our lover’s dreams” On the lyric sites, it is usually given as “rubbish dreams”. But I don’t think that’s right.
G’nite!
You’re probably right, Val. I’ve seen the same kind of thing fairly often – they get it wrong.
Now, hit the hay!
Good morning. I’ll see your “I’m your man”, and raise you one “Bird on a wire”! Some of the lyrics he sings here are different from those given on the lyric sites…..
Good evening, Val. Ahhh…”Bird on a wire’ can’t be beat!
But maybe matched with “Dance me to the End of Love.”
“Bird on the Wire “ original 1969 lyrics:
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
Like a worm on a hook,
like a knight from some old fashioned book
I have saved all my ribbons for thee.
If I, if I have been unkind,
I hope that you can just let it go by.
If I, if I have been untrue
I hope you know it was never to you.
Like a baby, stillborn,
like a beast with his horn
I have torn everyone who reached out for me.
But I swear by this song
and by all that I have done wrong
I will make it all up to thee.
I saw a beggar leaning on his wooden crutch,
he said to me, “You must not ask for so much.”
And a pretty woman leaning in her darkened door,
she cried to me, “Hey, why not ask for more?”
Oh like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free
1979 Tour version had one different line in the first verse:
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
Like a worm on a hook,
Like a monk bending over the book
it was the shape of our love (that) twisted me.
http://www.leonardcohenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11928
Dance Me To The End Of Love – with lyrics
Very nice song and great video too!
Well, it’s past my bedtime for the old man again… 🙂
Have a good night. And thanks for all your wistful posts.
Thank you Valkov, few years back you have posted this for me;
Hun Warriors http://youtu.be/UpT6S9TGjpc
The music speaks. passions flowing as burning lava and silent tears falling in the sanctuary of the steppes when alone under the canopy billions stars.
The music expresses life: as I known this one and so many others I have had.
Thanks Erszebeth, I haven’t seen that video in a long time. Tim Buckley had that kind of passion, it comes through in some of his songs.
Reflections in a Crystal Wind
If there’s a way to say I’m sorry
Perhaps I’ll stay another evening
Beside your door, and watch the moon rise
Inside your window, where jewels are falling
And flowers weeping, and strangers laughing
Because you’re dreaming that I have gone
And if I don’t know why I’m going
Perhaps I’ll wait beside the pathway
If there’s a way to say I’m sorry
Perhaps I’ll stay another evening
Beside your door, and watch the moon rise
Inside your window, where jewels are falling
And flowers weeping, and strangers laughing
Because you’re dreaming that I have gone
And if I don’t know why I’m going
Perhaps I’ll wait beside the pathway
Where no one’s coming, and count the questions
I turned away from, or closed my eyes to
Or had no time for, or passed right over
Because the answers would shame my pride
I’ve hear them say the word forever
But I don’t know if words have meaning
When they are promised in fear of losing
What can’t be borrowed, or lent in blindness
Or blessed by pageantry, or sold by preachers
While we’re still walking our separate ways
Sometime we bind ourselves together
And seldom know the harm in binding
The only feeling that cries for freedom
And needs unfolding, and understanding
And time for holding a simple mirror
With one reflection to call your own
If there’s an end to all our dreaming
Perhaps I’ll go while you’re still standing
Beside your door, and I’ll remember
Your hands encircling a bowl of moonstones
A lamp of childhood, a robe of roses
Because your sorrows were still unborn
well I botched that in the copy/pasting…..
Reflections in a Crystal Wind
If there’s a way to say I’m sorry
Perhaps I’ll stay another evening
Beside your door, and watch the moon rise
Inside your window, where jewels are falling
And flowers weeping, and strangers laughing
Because you’re dreaming that I have gone
And if I don’t know why I’m going
Perhaps I’ll wait beside the pathway
Where no one’s coming, and count the questions
I turned away from, or closed my eyes to
Or had no time for, or passed right over
Because the answers would shame my pride
I’ve hear them say the word forever
But I don’t know if words have meaning
When they are promised in fear of losing
What can’t be borrowed, or lent in blindness
Or blessed by pageantry, or sold by preachers
While we’re still walking our separate ways
Sometime we bind ourselves together
And seldom know the harm in binding
The only feeling that cries for freedom
And needs unfolding, and understanding
And time for holding a simple mirror
With one reflection to call your own
If there’s an end to all our dreaming
Perhaps I’ll go while you’re still standing
Beside your door, and I’ll remember
Your hands encircling a bowl of moonstones
A lamp of childhood, a robe of roses
Because your sorrows were still unborn
Hey Val, these poetic lyrics and you talking about being an old man reminded me of this wonderful story:
“When an old lady died in the geriatric ward of a small hospital near Dundee, Scotland, it was felt that she had nothing left of any value. Later, when the nurses were going through her meager possessions, they found this poem. Its quality and content so impressed the staff that copies were made and distributed to every nurse in the hospital. One nurse took her copy to Ireland. The old lady’s sole bequest to posterity has since appeared in the Christmas edition of the News Magazine of the North Ireland Association for Mental Health.
“… And now this little old Scottish lady, with nothing left to give to the world, is now the author of this simple, yet eloquent, poem traveling the world by Internet. Goes to show that we all leave “SOME footprints in time”…
—————————————
“An Old Lady’s Poem”
What do you see, nurses, what do you see?
What are you thinking when you’re looking at me?
A crabby old woman, not very wise,
Uncertain of habit, with faraway eyes?
Who dribbles her food and makes no reply
When you say in a loud voice, “I do wish you’d try!”
Who seems not to notice the things that you do,
And forever is losing a stocking or shoe…..
Who, resisting or not, lets you do as you will,
With bathing and feeding, the long day to fill….
Is that what you’re thinking? Is that what you see?
Then open your eyes, nurse; you’re not looking at me.
I’ll tell you who I am as I sit here so still,
As I do at your bidding, as I eat at your will.
I’m a small child of ten …with a father and mother,
Brothers and sisters, who love one another.
A young girl of sixteen, with wings on her feet,
Dreaming that soon now a lover she’ll meet.
A bride soon at twenty — my heart gives a leap,
Remembering the vows that I promised to keep.
At twenty-five now, I have young of my own,
Who need me to guide and a secure happy home.
A woman of thirty, my young now grown fast,
Bound to each other with ties that should last.
At forty, my young sons have grown and are gone,
But my man’s beside me to see I don’t mourn.
At fifty once more, babies play round my knee,
Again we know children, my loved one and me.
Dark days are upon me, my husband is dead;
I look at the future, I shudder with dread.
For my young are all rearing young of their own,
And I think of the years and the love that I’ve known.
I’m now an old woman …and nature is cruel;
‘Tis jest to make old age look like a fool.
The body, it crumbles, grace and vigor depart,
There is now a stone where I once had a heart.
But inside this old carcass a young girl still dwells,
And now and again my battered heart swells.
I remember the joys, I remember the pain,
And I’m loving and living life over again.
I think of the years ….all too few, gone too fast,
And accept the stark fact that nothing can last.
So open your eyes, nurses, open and see,
…Not a crabby old woman; look closer …see ME!!
Forgot to give the link: http://www.carepathways.com/anoldladyspoem.cfm
Thanks mar! That is how it is. I am not as old as that woman was, but I have been resisting the light at the end of the tunnel for some time actually.
and me here counting the days till I float out of this body,.. really-really looking forward to that but there is knowledge needed to be gleaned. 🙂 I have learned that we are always in the right place, doing the right thing… so wishing is useless.
Come on, Val, you’re not exactly elderly. Just old enough to call yourself an old man – or brag about it. 😉
Here’s a song for you and Elizabeth, just for laughs. “Journey to old age”
I am blessed to know a little about you Elliot. I count this as a very good thing in my life. You’ve held up a mirror for me more than a few times and I look forward to more times.
Thanks Chris. Anyone who has put up with my rude feral side deserves a lot of credit! Maybe even Al, but certainly you do! You are a good friend.
🙂 I like all sides!
M…Thank you for posting that.. It is magnificent..
M… PS: it happens, the above to those who believe that they have one life only and they are the body..that they die with the body..
and sadly to those too who know about auditing, who know that sooner or later the ”mind” will shut off, one will have less and less here as one’s purpose is lived become a memory and even those pictures of the past will fade and will vanish… yet they do not see the same will be their faith too… because the considerations they have about being a human contains those same commands which will make it happen for them too same as for that old lady..
I see the same with my older sister who will be 77 in few weeks time. She lives the above poem.. that is her life now.. and I who have become free of those boundaries what makes the human a human. I on the other hand have a rich full life with total recall, and the knowledge that death do not exist nor old age and this life held only much value as I considered it had… there is no loss…
Auditing has value which one takes when leaving the body.
I visit a fabulous craniosacral therapist named Karen weekly. She had a friend who died of cancer. The friend was REALLY pissed at getting this ‘disease’, as she had just gotten her life around to EXACTLY how she wanted it to be, and was really looking forward to living, and suddenly she was dying. About 2-3 days before sge passed, she had a dream: She was near or in water, and a bottle came to her with a message for her. She did not want it, and kept pushing it away, but it kept coming back. Finally she opened it and read the message, which simply said “I love you.” This pissed her off even more and she put it back in the bottle and threw it as far away as possible and it was gone. Then from the horizon came more bottles, thousands of them, tens, hundreds of thousands of them! And each one carried the message – “I love you”.
Karen saw her the next day and she told Karen “Everything, EVERYTHING, you have is worth nothing! None of it, none of it, is worth anything!”
Karen said her friend’s eyes were so bright they filled the room with light, and she was completely happy. She passed quickly after that.
I LOVE that story. 🙂
It reminds me of what they say would happen if we knew the world was about to end – people would call up everyone they knew to tell them they loved them. 😦 🙂
Along these same lines is a little story about Aldous Huxley told by a friend of his. They were together on a lecture tour and on their way to the next city for the next lecture, Huxley said to the friend that he had to confess something – which was that after all these years there was only one thing he had learned. And when the friend asked what it was, Huxley said “to be kind to one another.”
Oh well, can’t seem to get the lyrics quite right…. The last line of the 3rd verse should be “While you’re still walking your separate way”.
Darn lyrics sites, they sometimes just don’t get them all right……
Is there a way to edit one’s own posts on these blogs?
That would be great if we could edit our posts. Maybe Geir will surprise us with that feature on the next theme change.
And where are you, Geir, anyway? Sailing around the Mediterranean in your yacht, looking for danger and excitement? 🙂
Been on a trip. Busy catching up some work. Will resurface here in a day or two 🙂
Aha, so I was close. Hope you had an adventure and are going to write a blog post all about it. 🙂
If that’s what he’s really looking for, he should go sail over there by Somalia…. 🙂
Funny! I hope Geir has a sense of humor on the subject. 😉
Geir is all sense of humor! 🙂 Besides, if he’s seen the movie, he knows Captain Phillips lived to tell about it with no major loss of tissue!
“Geir is all sense of humor! 🙂 ”
LOL again. Well, since Geir isn’t keeping us entertained at the moment, I’ll post another oldie but goodie. You being “an old man,” I’m sure you remember the band Starship with Mickey Thomas. In this vid Bobby Kimball is doing a guest appearance, singing his hit song “Rosanna.” But take special note of the guitarist – you know his mother 😉 He wasn’t the original guitarist in the 70’s, of course, but joined the band in 2000.
The best part of the video is where the musicians all do solos, starting at about 4:40. And at the very end the guitarist does a second awesome solo. Check it out:
Actually, three years ago, I was invited to Somalia by the president to build their IT industry. I met with their ambassador for the CIS, Dr. Handule in Moscow and proposed that we should do something positive for the country rather than focus only on removing the negative. My initiative was discussed, approved and I was invited. That was just before the shooting started for real, and I was grounded by my now ex wife. Pretty much the same happened when I got a chance to meet with the Governor of Juba in South Sudan – before they found 4000 dead bodies in a forest in that country.
Now you understand why is neccessary to remove the negative before do something positive? Your good intentions and honesty were covered by war and blood. Cannot build a house on a rotten foundation.
One can and should and preferably would focus on both handling the negative and building something positive. Somalia is a prime example of a sole focus on handling the negative leads to pretty much nowhere. People are not build for focusing purely on the negative. Methinks.
Of course I agree with you, it’s common sense what you say. Problem is that areas like Somalia or Darfur cannot implement this kind of humanism. First peace, food and healthcare, than IT.
Yes. Psychologists have long since identified the pattern of going from one crisis to the next. This resembles failures to work up through conditions correctly I guess, I never worked out the details. And of course it is cynically used for the purpose of, for example, keeping people scrambling to keep donations coming because “COB has a really big situation” etc etc. Ot “we gotta invade Iraq because Saddam has WMDs etc”.
The big issue I see is, no-one seems to have a good idea of what “handling the negative” really involves, or they are not really interested in doing so because they profit or benefit from the negative in some way. They don’t want to rock the boat.
Dragos, interesting comment and traditional. I wonder if this is true from any angle as more than truism?
The amazing thing amid all the intentions, condescensions, and adventures, alike, is that tricky, enticing li’l devil – the erstwhile “adrenalin junkie” – risking life & limb for the next available ‘high’.
–Something the ‘play safes’, conservatives, and those with nervous dispositions — just cannot begin to comprehend. 🙂
If you help them with their internet, do a good job, ‘k?
…i have always loved this vid by Geir but only now do i have AN
answer to the Why: each instant one is creating life, one is giving and getting a possibility to feel, understand, love and live that creation….the number of what can be created and experienced
looks to be infinite…
so one’s task is to create life to the best of one’s skills…and as
one is getting better and better at practising skills, one is contributing more and more to what can be felt, understood, loved
and lived….
Practising skills means doingness, which is livingness and also
change which brings about more doingness, more livingness….
here is an interesting vid of doingness-livingness as a flow-like
experience…
I thought Geir’s Place had just about ‘nodded off’ completely 🙂
….Then you show up Sis’ 🙂 🙂
ML, Ray.
Hi ray
Of course i show up as it is time to get Geir’s Place a bit more
active. He had an idea earlier that we could use his blog for
exchanging practical stuff like recipies, diet advice, holiday tips
etc. Geir, if you feel like, please create a space for that on
your blog. Let’s see, what we can come up with. I know that we
can find such things on the Net but maybe it would be fun to
do that for ourselves here besides our discussions.
Well, my Sis, thanks for the reply and the sound ideas! There’s something to work on at least! Going to hit the hay now! Sweet dreams 🙂
L, Ray. 🙂
Let’s wake up Geir’s place.
This is gem of writing that I ran across recently. It is “How to Make Our Ideas Clear” written in 1878 by Charles S. Peirce
http://www.peirce.org/writings/p119.html
This shows how Hubbard’s word-clearing falls short of mark because it depends entirely on definitions provided by authority. Word Clearing is not designed to question the definitions themselves in light of new facts of observation.
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Well, okay then, Vinay. If anyone (other than yourself), is prepared to wade through this “gem” with a view to” making our ideas clear”, I almost guarantee they WILL “fall short of the mark.”.
An erudite discourse such as that, would hardly convince anyone other than an English major, to even attempt such a feat.
A spectacular treatise from an advanced scholar of his times, though. I’ll give you that! 🙂
Hehe, racing! 🙂 What else you doing if not improving your English?
Oh! Racing is busy improving his communication skills, 😉
🙂 ~Chris
‘what else you doing if not improving your English?’ listening to
music … Geir likes Schiller…i thought i put one here….(i looked
up, vielklang means ‘lots of sounds’)
your favourites, guys?
Nice!
Vinaire: “This shows how Hubbard’s word-clearing falls short of mark because it depends entirely on definitions provided by authority. Word Clearing is not designed to question the definitions themselves in light of new facts of observation.”
What I have observed is that Hubbard came up with terms to stand for certain concepts. People then started using his coined terms but with a different meaning – and argued that the meaning isn’t correct. That’s a form of Straw Man.
When someone objects to the meaning being given as not being the actual definition, they are accused of resorting to definitions provided by authority! That just isn’t logical. It’s fine to disagree with a concept, but you can’t use the same word that already has a particular definition and concept assigned to it. Or you should at least state that you are re-defining the word.
And your idea of word clearing “falls short of the mark” too. It’s purpose is to clarify definitions so as to understand the concept of the way a word is used – not to take up whether or not the concept itself is correct. When the definitions change “in light of new facts of observation,” then those new definitions would be cleared.
Word clearing is word clearing, not debating ideas. That can only come about once we know what each other means by the words being used.
Can there be a situation when a person understands a definition but disagrees with it?
Or, is it ok to assume that when a person disagrees with a definition that he doesn’t understand it always without exception?
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The point I tried to make is that a definition is just a definition. You either understand it or you don’t. It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe it is referring to something valid.
Take the definition of unicorn: “an imaginary animal that looks like a horse and has a straight horn growing from the middle of its forehead.”
You may disagree that such an animal exists, but that has nothing to do with understanding the definition. And if you start using that word in a different way than how it’s defined in order to correct what you consider to be invalid, you’re just confusing the issue. Either state that you don’t think such a thing exists or, if you want to modify the definition so as to correct it, state that you are doing so. That’s all.
So, if you are word clearing a Catholic on transubstantiation, then will it be ok for you as a word clearer that he literally believes that the wafercake has the qualities of meat and the diluted wine has the quality of blood unlike Protestants who consider it to be metaphorical?
Which way would you go? Would you accept the literal interpretation?
It isn’t up to a word clearer to evaluate what a person believes. Again, you’re confusing the purpose of word clearing.
But to answer your indirect question, if I were wearing another hat than word clearer, I might challenge someone’s beliefs. I might not. It would depend on the situation.
That is exactly the limitation of word clearing that I am pointing out. Word clearing in Scientology is used to strenghten the beliefs of Scientology.
It is far from “knowing how to know” for oneself.
Word clearing doesn’t limit anything. In fact, as already indicated, it facilitates being able to understand what someone is saying, whether in Scientology or elsewhere. It isn’t the word clearing that is at fault in strengthening the beliefs in Scientology. Wrong target, Vinnie.
I believe in mindfulness. I don’t target. That is just a filter that Scientologists use.
Hubbard was very paranoid. He always felt being targeted. That kind of a filter is part of the beliefs of Scientology.
You need some word clearing. 😉 By “wrong target,” I was using this definition of target: “an object of ridicule or criticism.”
You were criticizing word clearing – in other words, you do target.
You are violating discussion policy by changing the subject to discussing the participant.
No, Vin. I was discussing your statements. But you often take it personally when someone disagrees with your statements – you call it discussing the participant! This is another point you haven’t duplicated, though it has been mentioned a number of times. Maybe we’ll try it again another time.
“You need word clearing” is discussing the participant.
________________________________
No, it was a comment on the statement you had just made. You showed you didn’t understand the meaning of “target.”
The point was that per the definition of “target” you indeed were targeting, although you tried to deny it – which plainly indicated you didn’t understand the definition of the word. And at that point it was you who didn’t stick to the subject but instead made the illogical claim that I was discussing the participant.
I give up. 🙂
________________________________
Alright! Got you where I want you – in apathy. 😀
Kidding! We’re having a heat spell here in sunny California – in the 100’s again today. So I’m staying inside. And when you said let’s wake up Geir’s place I was into it, since it’s the only blog around that is “live” with no moderation. Oh, well. 🙂
Preparing a new blog post or two, although it’s crazy busy here right now…
Well, it’s about time. 🙂
p.s. I should add that this is where the discussion often ends. If you can wrap your wits around this, it may be possible to carry through and actually have a productive discussion some time.
I encourage your continuation… 😉
I would, but when Vinnie does a cop out, what can I do? 😉
If we are made to believe that wine is actually blood in some special circumstance, while the properties of wine do not change to properties of blood, then this is a deception and akin to brainwashing.
Just like Catholics are brainwashed into beliefs that are far from reality, Scientologists are brainwashed too with the use of word clearing.
That is why no discussions of their beliefs is allowed in these Churches because discussions can soften up brainwashing by raising doubts.
No discussion being allowed is a completely different objection than your objection to word clearing as such. And the objection to no discussion being allowed is a point I’ve made myself.
If you’re just trying to make the point that we should be allowed to disagree about things in Scientology, I would concur. But word clearing itself has its place.
I am not objecting to word clearing. I am simply pointing out its limitations.
But the ‘Scientology filter” may make it look like as if I am objecting to word clearing.
I was a Flag Word Clearer and Admin Cramming Officer.
Your original statement was “This shows how Hubbard’s word-clearing falls short of mark because it depends entirely on definitions provided by authority.”
As I’ve explained, word clearing doesn’t fall short of the mark in terms of its purpose. You have tried to assign it another purpose and there was no “filter” in my pointing that out.
And I was a Flag Word Clearer too. 😛
Fine job all round, Marildi. No invalidations, snide remarks, or serfacs employed, or even necessary.
To be completely honest, I don’t think those tactics are ever necessary, if one is simply ‘in present time’ and fully willing to ‘duplicate’ and ‘grant beingness’, to the involved other. In which case, there would be no need for a ‘filter’, now would there?
And as you have often made clear, It’s entirely possible to have fun, with anyone, without having to resort to the perceived ‘safety’ of the 1.1 refuge, wouldn’t you agree?
Another ‘observation’ ( lol ) if you will? Who the hell ‘needs’ all the baggage of lugging around the above mentioned mental bric-a-brac, or ‘case’, unless it is serving the purpose of continuing a game of some kind?
I prefer to be alert in the actual physical environment in which I am, at any given moment (in PT). This gives huge and obvious advantages, when compared to those that can’t/wont.
Call it the working attitude of the ‘bodyguard’, if you will, but I find it is the only effective way to perceive threats of real danger, so as to act decisively if one expects to avoid becoming a needless victim, or worse, a ‘statistic’.
And what to do?… the rest of the time when we aren’t ‘working’ / slogging / creating / learning (bumping our hedz) / comm’ing /
(living & loving ) ???
….. Just one more thing really makes it ALL worthwhile (imho)
—The incredible ‘lightness of being’ — a sense of humor! 🙂
— ‘Laughter’, …. STILL the very best medicine for that life long malady called ‘LIFE”. 🙂
Now C.. if you would reread your above post.. would realise you have done nothing more than judge, evaluate., how things should be, expressing the optimum.. what would be the optimum acceptable by your standard everything other than your reality would be what?
just putting in my nickel here, cant be 2cent since Canada no longer use copper cents.
We have nickel, dime, loony that is $1 and twony that is $2 etc..
Well E, seeing you have put your 2 wotevers worth here, I thank you for them. 🙂
BTW, my answer to your question ?
—Please re-read my last sentence in the above posting! 🙂
Hey Racer, here’s some fun for you. It’s a video that was posted on facebook of a little girl – a baby, actually – riding in the car with her daddy. Check at about 4:00 where he starts playing an Elvis song and the baby gets into it. This has gotta make even Vinnie smile. 😉
Gee, Marildi…. ‘straight from the mouth of ‘babes’ 🙂 Talk about Perception? Duplication? Awareness? & being in PT?
— Priceless clip — Even a slim chance that Vinnie could profit from watching 😉 …. Don’t hold your breath though! 🙂
Yes, Racer, “duplication” came to my mind too. That baby had obviously listened to Elvis many times, and watched him on video. But here’s the thing – her duplication wasn’t just a matter of mimicking, like a robot. You could tell that the emotion in the music had REACHED her as a being. This is the subject of art again, as being one of the ways we communicate on a non-physical level. And a way we PERCEIVE things that aren’t physical – so I agree with you about “perception” and “awareness” being evident too.
This might all be too “woo woo” for Vinnie, though. 😉
Just kidding, Vin, I know from some of your posts that music reaches you too. On the other hand, from various things you write, I get that you have reduced everything – which would include music or other art – to a matter of interacting physical forces. Correct me if I’m wrong. 😉
Well, Marildi, the person in the picture ( ‘a baby’ ) is one SUPER aware being, as I saw her! Her comm cycle, including lots of letting Daddy know that he is definitely her number one, plus her ability to focus on what and ‘how’ Elvis was singing and making his moves (lots of mimicked head nods and a “whole lot ‘a shakin’ goin’ on”), was just too cute for words 🙂 What mostly fascinated me was her obvious pauses, showing she was quite transfixed, while absorbing El’s performance. Just an amazing thing to witness. Even my own two daughters, who grew up with their music constantly filling their bedrooms, (and of course knew the songs off by heart, LOL,) never struck me as having THAT degree of focus and intent…. and they really only got into it way after leaving ‘ toddlerhood’. Kids seem to be surprising us more & more, with what ‘they’ are capable of learning I’m sure it all boils down to tons & tons of love, stimulation and generous high toned communication all around them! … (ps I KNOW it does!) 🙂
Well said, Racer. “Focused” and “transfixed” – and in the zone. A precocious child, for sure. Someone emailed me the facebook link but I found the vid on youtube and decided to grace the thread with it:
And here’s The King himself, “Glory, Glory Hallelujah.” What a voice! What feeling! (Gorgeous to look at too 😉 )
Oh yeaaaah, Marildi baby!! ..The one and only KING himself! Speaking of which, here’s ‘another'(???) though certainly ‘puzzling’ according to Simon Cowell!
Check it out (and if you don’t mind doing the honors for the blog).
— Thanks 🙂
Sorry, Marildi. posted before completed. Here’s the clip title:
“Greg Pritchard countertenor sings Nessun Dorma” – tks.
Okay, Racer, here you go. Can’t say I ever saw anything like this.
OH I have I just forgotten put the laughing faces up ..here you go..
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 I am laughing and writing but I am just doing the same as you, evaluating. your evaluation. 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Bingo! One does not actually NEED a ‘reason’ to laugh, E..
any more than one NEEDS ‘needs’ to evaluate, judge, etc.
One simply ‘laughs’ without needing any motivation of any kind.
..it’s not necessarily an appropriate / inappropriate / crazy / comedic response either! It’s just simply an outflow of ‘energy’ which happens to let a person feel better after, then before! 🙂
My favorite comedians were and they still are Red Skeleton, than Terry Thomas.. They have had the energy flow which matched what they were saying. Their enery-space was pure delight, sparkles of creative energy, which tickled every sense like bubbles of fine champagne tickles the nose. they were fun.. exuded laughter spread joy with those innocent meaningless jokes . that was real …
You don’t know me, therefore you cant possibly know what I think is fun, what makes me laugh. But you believe the person only have fun if doing the same as you.. C….”One simply ‘laughs’ without needing any motivation of any kind.”” go for it.. good for you.. I just feel what I feel and that feeling do not need to be expressed with hardy-hardy haahaahaa to show the world I feel good. So let it ride. please.
E is one cool sister 🙂
…yeah, we cannot possibly know what another finds fun…i have
just listened to this music and i like it….yeah, i put here another
one too…maybe some of you haven’t heard them yet and will
also like them and thus we can share the fun…thank you Geir
for giving us your Place that we can do it!….waiting for yor next
post!
My deah E! Kindly perish the thought. I not only acknowledge your inalienable ‘right’, to feel, reject, decry, attack, obliterate, insult, stomp on, puke on?, retaliate upon, hehehe upon, etc, etc,- but listen up, dear fellow traveler / dweller (upon this orbiting planet we SHARE!!! (please note –grrrrr!) — If anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, so much as even d-a-r-e-s, to interfere with your reserved right & entitlement – then I will personally track them down, to show up quite unexpectedly on their door step! I will then proceed to physically drag them off to my awaiting ‘race-tuned’ motorcycle, and tie them onto the pillion with heavy duty restraints. Next, I shall strap onto him/her/it, a full face helmet with built in speakers wired to my on-board sound system. Does this seem like an appropriate setting for punishment? No?
Wait, E…. this gets better — ha!
You need to understand this, E! I’m not only faaaar from ‘normal’, in fact, by normal standards, I could be considered completely INSANE. Please allow me to spell out to you, — why?
The ‘upsetter’ unsettler, of ‘E’, will need some ‘unsettling’ of their own, as completely ‘just retribution’, as far as I’m concerned. You see,(E) — when provoked incessantly, ‘C’ — just snaps! (crack!!!!)
(that simply translates to — DON’T MESS with my mates, bub!)
Okay, so back to the ‘retribution’ — delivered ‘C’s’ style, as only he knows how. (hehehe, to paraphrase ‘E’ hee hee!)
Fire up our four-cylinder Yamaha R6 (top race tuned speed 295 kmph, @ 18,000 rpm). Now all kitted up, complete with our erstwhile ‘passenger’, we set off nice & ‘sedately’, flipping through the six-speed gearbox, with the wild gyrations and nervous flailing of hands, and strangle gurgling shrieks now barely audible, above the buffeting wind and the sweet sound of a race engine on full song. Ahhhhh yesssss, E. — you just have to experience that sensation, to know ‘heaven’ -(LOL)
Oh, and what about the ‘passenger’, you ask? Well, ‘E’, you see, I don’t particularly care! I just know by now, that he/she/it, is completely frozen in abject ‘fear’, as I drop into a wide left hand bend at about 220 (on the clock) on the quiet stretch of one of my favorite open roads, where one is free to open ‘er up! (Oh, and that’s one of the’slower bends’), where we can then accelerate out of 4th gear to scream up to maximum speed on the completely open main straight of around 5kms, in top (6th) gear! Hehehe!
Even better, I push ‘play’ on the bike’s sound system, to let rip on a ponderous mix of Freddie Mercury’s ‘We are the Champions’, interspersed with some selected audios of LRH’s M/U inducing lectures, COB’ s painful, monotonous ramblings, a clip uf der Fuhrer ranting about ‘Mein Kamphh’ , and an orated selection of both Alanzo’s and Vinnie’s more irritating postings.
(Please Note, ‘E’ that I hear NONE of this ‘stuff’, at all… since it has been especially prepared and served through the head set of ‘THE PASSENGER’ )(The one, remember, who d-a-r-e-d to upset one of my ‘friends’.) (the best parts, E?– Well, they CAN’T shut off the audio, they CAN’T jump off the motorcycle and they CAN’T
get me to slow down either!! hehehe ) –you like that, ‘E’ ??
After a session of this ‘retribution’- I can assure you, (as only an adrenalin-junkie would know how! LOL) that our now nerve-shattered ‘passenger’, is then unceremoniously and literally ‘dropped off’ back home, in a now uncontrollable state of trembling and shaking, with eyes wide, mouth frozen in a ‘silent scream’, and ready for a nervous breakdown! HEHEHE!
(I’ll let you have your leg back, to take a break now, Okay) 🙂
(BTW, Red Skelton? Plenty of skits of him available, anytime on the ‘net….. Anytime that is, that you ‘FEEL’ the need ?)
–C.
Ohhhh yes we do travel on the path of enlightenment tide to the motorcycle.. how true…
Remember to place the tongue under the saddle. On a motorcycle, wrap in aluminum foil together with onions and seasoning and place on exhaust pipe.
Yeah, that’s a good tip, Chris, especially when tongues become so ‘loose’, they ‘lose’ direction altogether, hey? 🙂
Yup.
Subject Clearing goes beyond the confining box of Word Clearing. Here are the steps of Subject Clearing (it is better to put a link then take a lot of space here):
http://vinaire.me/2014/05/01/subject-clearing/
.
Here is the MODEL OF REALITY that is coming into focus on Vinaire’s Blog:
“Reality is essentially what is there, but the personal filters may distort it. However, filters are also part of the reality and so is the observer.
“What is not part of the reality, I don’t know. So, it all boils down to understanding the nature of the infinite variations that reality presents, and building a model for this reality.
“This model is coming into focus in terms of a filter separating the observed from the observer. The filter modulates how the observer observes the observed. But when the filter is gone then the observed and observer are gone too. In a sense, the very existence of the observed and the observer depends on the existence of the filter.
“So, this is the wonderful reality made of observed, filter and the observer.”
http://vinaire.me/2014/06/02/william-james-american-philosopher/#comment-23118
.
I would like to thank Will Durant, William James, Charles Pierce and Chris Thomson (and, of course, the VEDAS) for their contribution to this model. 🙂
My thanks in a large measure also go to Wikipedia and the Internet. 🙂
Message for Marianne; I have replied to your request on E/M!
—Awaiting your follow up???
L, Ray.