Despite the daze and haze of true love, I will be peeking through here to relate some thoughts that have popped into my mind of late.
I am happier now than anytime I can remember. It is interesting what effects true love and true happiness generate. I follow the flow and all things life seem to fall neatly into place.
After Anette and I broke the news of our relationship on Facebook, many of Anette’s Scientology friends showed an uninspiring lack of integrity. With the Scientology Inquisition looming, many decided they would rather lower themselves to the level of fear and yield to the Church’s disconnection policy than stand their ground as true friends.
As a side not, let me paraphrase the Wikipedia article on the Inquisition:
“The Inquisition (Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis; Inquiry on Heretical Perversity), is a practice within the justice system of the Church of Scientology whose aim is to “fight against heretics”. It started in the 1960’s Central Organizations to persecute heresy, and was later expanded to all Scientology related organizations. Inquisition practices are used also on offences against the Command Intention of Dear Leader David Miscavige other than heresy against the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard.”
Comments kept popping in via Facebook, e-mail or other channels. Lots of support, but also several instant reality rejections from “True Scientologists“. This puzzles me. With the Scientology Technology teaching tolerance of other’s views (the ARC triangle), it is rather surprising that I can see no improvement in the people having studied Scientology over those who have not. It seems a human trait to often instantly reject realities that opposes one’s own. But students of Scientology display no more tolerance of other’s views than the general population. It matters not whether the students are within the ranks of the Church or outside in the Independent field. I cannot frankly see any real difference in tolerance between scientologists and those who are not. How come?
187 thoughts on “Tolerance”
I guess it boils down to tone level, whether the knowledge is known or not. Seems so from my obsrvation
So then logically I would further extrapolate out from this premise that the majority of Scientologists, most after long involvement with the study and application of the subject, remain low-toned despite the fact that one of the main promises it makes is that the study and application of Scientology will raise tone level.
Obviously environment plays a part too Synthia. Maybe Scn doesnt raise tone scale, i was only positing that tone scale SEEMS be the key in my observation..
That’s my experience Synthia, after 30 years and getting all the way to OT8!
your experience is that because you are OT 8 you are a better person? You feel superior to others? That other are less, below you? Is that number 8 gives you something which make you look down an others? I feel bad for you… You should have a session when you could confront and as-is that superior, being important, better than others thing you have since they are only a conciderations of yours and they can be as-ised.
trust me you wouls see the universe a very differently where we are one in fact…. we are one in the Spiritual Universe.
individuality is part of the MEST, is a implanted item.. it is the BANK…
No Elizabeth. You misread my comment. My point was just the opposite. After going to OT8 there is very little difference that I’ve observed between people I know having done the entire Bridge and those who have done none at all. I’ve encountered as many spiritual, “up tone” individuals outside of Scientology as those who have experienced it all the way to the supposed “zenith.”
you have no idea how thrilled that I am wrong… that pleases me to no end…. I ruther be wrong thousand times on something like that than once to be right…. Thank you. I do hope you believe that what I write… The words represent the purity of my universe…I am what you are…
P.humility… I would love to have some of your wins or all of them if you would care to share with my readers in my blog since there only wins and cognitions are posted there.
Also if you care to email firstname.lastname@example.org I would be delighted have your communication… sharing universe with you, Elizabeth..
And it’s both disturbing and intriguing.
OHHHHHH, the OT superior group!!!! bloody hell, wake up!! I dont believe you guys!! Dirty shame I say… Where the hell did you get that idea that you are so hot?
I have on idea…. why dont you give us on example a major win a cognition to inspire all of us in order to continue up on the Bridge… That would be very nice.. something uplifting how your life have changed and you have become a better being?
Hi Practice Humility,
Nice to meet you here! What is your exact experience? If you would care to answer this question related to your answer to aotc. Thanks for answering it!
My answer was to Synthia.
You are right, Practice Humility! I just wanted to get to know You and your experiences a little better. Sorry for the curiousity!
Practice Humility and aotc
THAT what we are (our true nature) is not part of the Tone scale. It has no form, no wavelenght, it’s timeless. So it cannot rise in tone. That there is the apparency of rising in tone is due to the nature of the “composite being” – with the expansion of Reality, the composite being is able to reach further and further, able to accomplish more and more with mechanical tools or without. That is, its communication and thus its reality is bigger and bigger; it includes what we call “tones”. When one has a glimpse of or gets to that “no place-no time” part of
us, which is empty and infinite, one is of no-tone and can Create the different points of the Tone Scale depending on the
remaining parts of the composite being which have/or haven’t been observed (confronted)
completely. And can equally “get stuck” in emptiness which is a “dry” place when one is there for a long time.That’s the reality I have about it. If you would look at what I have written and tell
me how you see it, I’d be very thankful to read it.
That is your reality because you have not looked further than your box, if you would have than you would realize each being is exactly there where they need to be… We all are precisely the right place…. and the reason is because the lessons need to be learned and that only can happen if one experiences an action first.
Your consideration is simply that: a consideration, nothing more and nothing less and that consideration belongs only into your own universe!!
You see considerations are assumptions, a view point which stream from ones reality, but all viewpoints are equal when you realize what considerations are: illusions only, they are not real.
You judge others from the point of you where you are at… you believe negative you see negative is it really was negative you seen? Noooo, not likely but your re-stimulation you felt was negative and is your experience and from that negative experience you see the world around you as a negative place.
First, one need to see differently like: that we are not better than others, we are not higher, or more important, or know more than others: WE ARE JUST DIFFERENT…. That is all, just different reality we are experiencing because our universes are different…. Here is a poem bellow which was sent to me and I have posted it in my blog…Please read it…
I was shocked, confused, bewildered
As I entered Heaven’s door,
Not by the beauty of it all,
Nor the lights or its decor.
But it was the folks in Heaven
Who made me sputter and gasp–
The thieves, the liars, the sinners,
The alcoholics and the trash.
There stood the kid from seventh grade
Who swiped my lunch money twice.
Next to him was my old neighbor
Who never said anything nice.
Bob, who I always thought
Was rotting away in hell,
Was sitting pretty on cloud nine,
Looking incredibly well.
I nudged Jesus, ‘What’s the deal?
I would love to hear Your take.
How’d all these sinners get up here?
God must’ve made a mistake.
‘And why is everyone so quiet,
So somber – give me a clue.’
‘Hush, child,’ He said,
‘they’re all in shock.
No one thought they’d be seeing you.’
Every saint has a PAST…
Every sinner has a FUTURE
Thanks for the poem! Like it!
“each being is exactly where they need to be”….right…so is Practice Humility…or You.. or Me…who is to judge when and how “miracles”, which are on the way to happen for the sake of all, will change the Course of Consciousness….every instant, every Being is a teaching…
Yes, love that poem. Just made me think of judging ourselves . Tone scale? Why I’m sure we all go up and down accordingly as needed, like you say. What a wonderful experience of life and mest. May as well play with what we have, well, to be able to detach when we’re ready. And that time is judged by oneself and hopefully at a good tone level.
All is a consideration and it is we who have the ability to consider for oneself. Judging seems to be what we do to others. What fun illusions are at this time. Rattle over… and laughs continue, light and fluffy like I like eggs and good chocolate. Thanks all 🙂
Dee… we not only judge others but we judge ourself first… Just think about it if you would not know what is good or bad, importan-unimportant etc…. how could tell what others doing that it was bad or good? In fact when one judges others really judges how self thinks what one believes in..so we dont judge others at all… just how we think….. very simple.
Example would be if I look at a flower and say that is beautiful yes I have judged expresed my reality but is is my reality regadless
Ha…ha…ha! It’s difficult for me to stop laughing….Eliz (me whispering into your ears)…are
you on the way to shake the whole universe and inviting us to build a new one?
Marianne I am not inviting any one… you see each individual has to realize their own role in the Universe.. And [ I whisper in your ears now] impossible to invite people to have understanding of different reality when they have not even realized went so far in understanding what “acknowledgement” means.. that they should do that when addressed in communication.
I dedicate this one to you my dear.. with love…. I mean love!
I think I would like to write about my view, my reality how I feel about behavior, what is mannerism.
Behavior, mannerism is a learned mechanism… One is thought ever since one gotten a body here on this Planet: how to talk, how to think, how to walk, dress, eat, play, make love, how to hold that cup, and how to cut that meet before one puts it into that machine.
One learned everything… all the musts: necessities, obligations, duties, requirements, essential, fundamentals basic laws in order to belong.. to be accepted, to be part of the group, to be invited into the group.
And if one dares to be original behave bit differently than that acceptable narrow behavior of the group, than one is warned off, or dismissed, given derogatory labels, and with that downgraded, invalidated to death and being told: one has no value, worth.
So behavior, the proper-correct mannerism is very important part one needs to play in order to belong.
Within this proper behavior is normal to lie –to cheat- to steal- long as one doesn’t get cut.
One can lie to somebodies face while looking into their eyes and say” you look absolutely terrific” and thinking silently” you look like a day old vomit on the sidewalk.”
But the behavior was proper…. It was in order…. One must compliment nicely.
My point is very simple, long as one do not get cut anything goes.
Let’s be honest very honest: what would happen to your marriage if your spouse suddenly could read your thoughts?
How long your boss would keep you if he too could read your mind?
Is your best friend or your group would keep you if they would really know how you think of them privately …or in fact would you still be friends if you would know how they really think of you?
What are the odds: any idea that the friendship would remain intact?
Human activities are two kinds: one the social critter… the other one…seldom come out in the open unless provoked…. Than look out, it has a double barrel gun, or take you to court, run you down on the side walk, burn your house down, rub you blind, etc…etc..etc…
There is One question which can penetrate that social mask, that veneer; that valance: HAS A WITHOLD BEEN MISSED? The magical key which opens up ones univese!!!
That question unlocks that secret door to the beings core and that question allows self to responsively confront one’s own hidden thought the “self”: and allows one to really go to know self, what is all there to know about self: how we think privately: who we really are.
When one has so much auditing as I have had so far: the social veneer is as-ised and one no longer hides behind that socially acceptable MASK, being nice in the face of others and show the middle finger behind their back.
One act behaves the same way at all times…. No more lies, no withholds, what you see hear: that is what you get.
One’s life become very simple this way: no longer need to hide those secret thought, no longer need to avert looking into eyes of others, no longer one need to remember what was said, so next time the story should still be the same.
Everything become simple: one say blue because one really means blue… one say I love you because one knows that love is there, and when one say fuck off, that means exactly that…
Auditing erases those falsities, deceptiveness, deviousness cunning and elements which cause the confusion, the need to hide things, and to hide from other.
With that one is free of being nice for reasons just because wanting to gain: by kissing up to someone in order to be accepted into group In other words: One no longer compromises ones reality!!!! Not even a little bit!.
One becomes open and exposed to others to be experienced by them and the same time experience other universes too and one say exactly as one feels and there is no more..
The interesting thing about all these because one becomes and talks straightforward no more lies, no more veneer no more hiding behind valances, one is labeled: rude, don’t have manners, don’t know how to behave therefore: banky and needs auditing heheheh…
Bloody Hell I love that part when somebody emails me a long list what I should handle and tell me I need to learn manners…hehehe.. fun…much fun.
Humans are so used to dealing with Valances, deceptions, lies that by now they believe honest straightforward –ness is rude and should be corrected. In other words: put on a nice front so I can see you and believe that you are nice?
I have news for you: beings in the Spiritual Universe one don’t have manners and one do don’t lie, cheat, steal, there is no such a concept as out ethics and we haven’t have the need to know how to hold the wine glass in order to look classy, etc..
Any of those social niceties those things which have importance on this planet, one leaves behind by as-ising the MEST.
And I have as-ised the MEST and it is true I don’t have manners….
In the Spiritual Universe which I call the Magical Universe, my home: what you see-experience that is yours… there is nothing more and nothing less…
That is the reason the greeting is: I AM WHAT YOU ARE
And I let you know into a little secret: one only need to say that greeting once when one re-enters this universe and why is that? We live in the one-ness… after all: I am what you are!
Eliz…..thank you…..this is a post which, while one is reading it and really lets it sink into the core of our common nature, can start or let that Flow of Life grow bigger, which is Pure Love. Thank you…I am what you are….as so is the YOU reading it..
What you are writing about is my experience-understanding too….let me contribute from a different aspect….a spirit is basically LOVE…not good or bad (they are considerations, relative). When one has a true, profound glimps of it, one starts to see what is real… starts to differentiate truth from untruth…there you have two choices:
You go with the Flow (truth, love,awareness) or go back to sleep (play the game of masks..).
But why doesn’t one choose the first one? I find its reason in the nature of LOVE itself…it’s that “substance” which has the ability to Create for the pure joy of Creating (one labels the manifestations this or that – but that’s mind and relative). It has the ability to Reach and Withhold. But why would it withhold itself? Because one intuitively loves that “other one” so much, that one doesn’t want to restimulate anything in the other one, so one decides not to tell the truth…as…
“when you expose what’s truely vulnerable within you, you’re actually being a mirror to what’s vulnerable in the people around you…you are reminding them of the same within
themselves…it’s what scares people about it” (A.)……that is, if you confess to the one you love that you acted plain stupid “against” her/him in a particular situation, you would restimulate a similar/same plain stupid action in her/his MIND which, of course, s/he also CONSIDERS stupid (evaluation) so both persons have agreed to hold up the consideraton of not telling the truth as, by doing so, it won’t hurt ……telling the truth would lead to less love, trust, faith TOWARDS oneself. TOWARDS not IN oneself.
The “amount” of love, trust, faith IN the ONE playing with itself by “dividing” itself into two (several parts) doesn’t change. The mechanical pattern of this game ( considerations of why not tell the truth) hides this fact…..but once one is flowing
with the Flow and it gets strong enough, one has no “personal” will over the course
of events….they are going on with Free Will (the totality of LIFE, at Tone 40). This is
TRUE and BEAUTIFUL, whatever forms/manifestations there are….this is the point when one really starts to live because one sees ….spiritual/mest = the same coin, what matters how one perceives it.
Love to You
Let’s whisper on….it’s a joy communicating with You…others might listen to it as everybody likes secrets…..acknowledgment….it starts with acknowledging one-Self first, that is a complete love of my body, mind and soul….they don’t have to be all perfect but completely accepted as-they-are….this love, when found in one-Self, starts to flow over to “others”, just spontaneously, as it is in its nature….when it is happening so, “miracles” start to happen….walls collapse, fast moving particles disappear, as well as space and even time….so, true live communication comes about and with it reality changes….”my” life has been like that for about a year now, especially the last couple of months…..this Flow of Life has such a power in changing Reality that the mind is just lagging behind to understand it…….real, live “products” come about.
Besides what is happening, I would like to draw Your attention Eliz, as well as Your attention who is reading it besides Eliz to
Geir’s Triangles! I have cleared the concepts in them and I see them as part of the truth
of Life. Wisdom that “makes life happen” ( familiar title?). I use the article in helping others in life and real, big changes have been happening in the lives of those involved. Thank you, Geir! Wishing you to create more wisdom for use!
Marianne.. our reality how we use words express our reality is very different.. I am not going there to iron out the differences.. there is no point in that. Te amit te latsz as a tied amit en latok as as enyem…. and there is no more..
True,,,thank you Eliz….that our realities are different and still we can communicate and there is affinity, it’s enough here to sparkle enough curiousity to read your next comment or post……THANK YOU for the Hungarian!!
I’ll translate it, as anyone reading it can learn from this truth:
“What you see is yours, what I see is mine” Elizabeth Hamre
m… ha akartam volna hogy judjak hogy en mit irok akkor en nem irtam volna magyarul hanem irtam volna as o nyelvukon. erdted? legy szives es ne fordits le amit en magyarul irok.
Eliz…..Rendben, bocsanat, eddig nem lattam, hogy lenne titkod….de igaz, a titok is jo jatek…
Just for the record, I do not believe tone level is the deciding factor here.
I agree, just seems some of us have a natural ability to love and understand, including tolerance, more than others.
“How come?” Beats me my dear. Isn’t life and love wonderful? 🙂
As crazy as it may sound, for lack of a better term, I believe it’s “Black Magic” or hypnosis. They are in a trance state. They really are.
Hadn’t thought of that, sounds good or right to me!
Thanks Synthia, I love your posts here and elsewhere.
Why thank you. I enjoy yours as well.
Rather than the metaphor of “Black Magic”, I would use the phenomenon LRH warned about: “Black Dianetics”
Sorry, I don’t think in those terms much anymore and “Black Magic” came first. It seems that we both have the same understanding though so I don’t much care about the terms used.
You are right, Synthia, there’s no need to think in Scientology terms necessarily. However, I would hope that you don’t feel a need to reject them either. And in this case, regarding what is going on with CoS Scientologists disconnecting, the frame of reference happens to be the specific type of “hypnosis” (using your other term) that has actually occurred for them, IMO (from what I’ve learned and observed on all flows, btw :)).
There comes a time Marildi when you broaden your outlook and verbiage. Acceptance and use of scio terms is Ok but not let them rule your life. Hypnosis is hypnosis whatever way you look at it. Some people after disconnection from only scio perspectives, live in the real world and learn to communicate with a broader meaning. When one stays in a particular sect’s thinking and relating, one inhibits oneself from communication to other beings. Scio’s have a benefit of knowing and understanding better hopefully, but not always.
deElizabethan , yes. I agree. When I left two and 1/2 years ago I purposefully jettisoned the nomenclature so I could regain myself back. It helped TREMENDOUSLY. Now I can use, not use…whatever but mostly I choose not to as I believe it to be a trap of sorts.
I absolutely agree. Im my case early 1980’s I was forced (agreed) to be a wog to do an undercover job which turned out to last for 4 years. I had to be very careful so as not to be discovered. In all, it was beneficial to me and I see how it can be done and not easy. When I went back last year I picked the think and lingo back up, but not really liking it. I have now a chosen understanding of both worlds. However, the scio lingo does not communicate to the real world and that’s where I choose to be. It is a trap of sorts for sure…
yes, the bigger bubble. Now we continue on our paths and maybe we will soon see where the bubble ends/begins this time.
Thank you. No, I don’t reject the term, per se, I just look to where LRH got the application and step it back because LRH knows that and used the term because he himself was a master hypnotist. He very clearly knew how to create the trance. The trance state that the current C of S members are experiencing is nothing new.
Hi Sindy! Good to see you.
Regarding your post, . . . I thought we could could call their state the “Truman Show Effect” or call it living in a bubble. Bubbles inside of bubbles inside of bubbles.
Where they fall down the hardest is in only relating to life through the filter of their own esoteric language. They look, but they look through the filter of their own bubble or frame of reference. This will present a skewed and inconsistent view since every round peg will be hammered until it scrapes into a square hole.
Our own best bet; our healthiest path is to be tolerant and to not worry about whether they are being tolerant.
If they are in a trance state, then they are waaaaaay downtone.
Imo the deciding factor is intuition, the natural knowledge of truth and correct behaviour.
I am Marianne T., a newbie here. I have read many of your insights, I am in harmony with them.
Like this one….IN-TUNE….how is that? My experience is: if one really looks “inside”, lets ! one’s attention drop very deep, one gets to a “place”, BEINGNESS itself. If one still keeps one’s attention “falling”, just naturally, what one finds is PURE CONSCIOUSNESS itself. It’s kind of fluid, forming itself into “shapes and forms” (not in a mest sense), kind of “playing” scene. Thus certain BEINGNESSES are shaped, whose core is Consciousness itself, the same substance. When one, You and I for instance, get to the core of our BEING, we feel no separation. We feel that we are the same in the core. From this “place” a certain knowledge, I call it wisdom, arises,
which is the base for the right action – that is what is manifested in the physical universe. This action is IN-TUNE with the apparent “you” and “I”, as well as with other beings. So, in this case it is the natural knowledge and true BE-HAVIOUR…..play with this word a little……BE – HAVE….
How do you see it, Rafael?
“In tune” is just great on many levels.
Certainly! Coming home I have been looking at exactly this! Words, thoughts, emotions, physical movements with the bodies….just all! It seems that we can be in tune depending on the tone level/wavelenght consciousness shapes itself in a given fraction of time. How do you see it?
Dear Marianne T., IN-TUNE, an interesting concept. Yes you are right on the Consciousness stuff. In my view there is an inner common and shared reality by the existing persons. The discovery of the importance and nature of this reality gives purpose to the existence and meaning to the seek for the hereafter. To discover the escence of this matter is to discover the nature of God, you may say. About the scientologese Be-Have, well, it is just a mechanical interpretation of the phenomena, we have what we can be. How do you see it my friend ?.
Yes! What you are writing about is my experience too… the discovery of the nature of this shared reality results in more affinity (A) which is the discovery of no distance and aliveness (the Flow of LIfe) which is more and more live communication (C) which is less and less fear of reaching out (expanding) so as to get to experience more and more manifestations of existence (R). In happening so, one’s Beingness is vaster and vaster (richer and richer). In my present experience what we call as BEINGNESS itself is ever-changing, is in a continuous change of form and when one is IN-TUNE with whatever manifestation there is for the one, one is really living the life of the ONE.
Geir drew our attention to an attitude, which is to STOP-not-to- DO anything-and not-to RESIST whatever there is (if I got him right). In my experience, the KEY in it is in the concept of TO
TO = motion and NOT-TO=lack of motion = static, consciousness. When it happens so, one is IN-TUNE with the complete “package” (ARC). More about it later….I am interested in how it is in your experience so far……thanks for calling me your friend… we have been for some time (reading your comments) but you haven’t had the chance to say that until I came
to the blog…that’s one reason I am here….for the joy of experiencing our common true nature, as well as the joy of com. with the tool of words…as well as co-creating new realities…
LOVE to YOU all
Marianne Toth, in my experience the Scientology ARC is a good tool if his understanding is not enforced and evaluated for the person. A lot of cognitions araise when its concept is explained in clay demo. About the motion and lack of motion, it is related in the practice with the TRs done with a good gradient for the purpose intended. A lot of benefit could be gotten from this exercises if these are done with common sense and respect for the person.
oops, meant in reply to Synthia saying tone scale not the key
Geir, I’m confused about your blog post in that (1) you seem not to have expected that Scientologists in the CoS would follow the disconnection policy and (2) you indicate that the ARC triangle is being violated. If that understanding is correct, I have to ask – are you still equating the CoS with the philosophy of Scientology? Really??
Also, what do you base this statement on:
“But students of Scientology display no more tolerance of other’s views than the general population. It matters not whether the students are within the ranks of the Church or outside in the Independent field”
Do you have some sort of figures on this or some other basis for that generality?
(I’m being rather straightforward as a person in love can tolerate just about anything. :))
In my experience with hundreds of people in all three camps (non-scientologists, CoS-scientologists and Independent scientologists), I see no raised tolerance in either camp. Given that two of the camps have studied (often extensively) the tech preaching the ARC triangle as one of the two most fundamental concepts, it startles me to see no statistical skewness in favor of tolerance in the two Scientology camps.
I draw my experience from personal contacts as well as this blog, Marty’s blog, the Freezone mailing list, the IVY mailing list, ESMB, OCMB, Scn kids, WWP and a few other channels. I’d say the number of posts I’ve read is north of a few hundred thousands.
Okay, I can see why you feel you can draw a pretty good, albeit not scientific, conclusion.
From my own experience of years as a word clearer and a couple years of averaging a few hours every day reading and participating in blogs, I would say that those who have “studied (often extensively)” the tech have had their study SKEWERED EXTENSIVELY by the influence of those who have ulterior motives and/or MU’s, i.e. they actually do not grasp Scientology.
And as for the dedicated critics among them, here’s an applicable excerpt from HCO PL “Purpose and Targets”:
The reason we are fought, where we are fought, is contained in its major part in purposes.
Purposes often fail and wind up in STOP.
Stopped purposes can then be dramatized.
In Scientology we use (quite correctly) FREEDOM. While not the most basic purpose, TO BE FREE is a common purpose to all thetans.
This tends to key in (restimulate) in some persons the stop of being free. They themselves wanted to be free. They were stopped, they dramatize the STOP of being free and try then to stop us. We restimulated (keyed in) their own purpose to be free or free others and where we are opposed the person or persons dramatize the stop or disagreement.
That it really CAN be done in Scientology is not only outside their reality but regenerated the failed purpose they have had to be free and free others and they dramatize STOP.
While this is not the total reason (interrelations also restimulate ethnic values, meaning customs), it is A BIG REASON FOR DEDICATED OPPOSITION TO US [emphasis is mine on this last sentence].
Oops, I meant “skewed”, not “skewered”. 😀
LOL 🙂 I thought skewered was kind of cool there too.
I laughed out loud too! And I also thought it kind of fit, in a way. Thanks for laughing with me. 😀
I like the skewered better.
I do feel for you and them, the “us” 🙂
deE, I don’t look at it as “us”. That’s skewing, skewering and screwing with my viewpoint. 😉
Oh sorry Marildi, I didn’t continue the quotes on later message “And as for the dedicated critics among them, here’s an applicable excerpt from HCO PL “Purpose and Targets”:” thought you were saying us and including yourself. I understand now, hey it’s late and I’m far from perfect. Mea Culpa!
No problem, deE. I’m confused now myself, but I think to start with I was unclear about exactly what I was quoting. Anyway, your comment here was appreciated! 🙂
Marildi, thanks for letting it slide.
p.s. The main reason why so many Scientologists of whatever stripe don’t actually understand or apply even the basic principles of the Scn philosophy is that the vast majority of them have been indoctrinated by the CoS into a misinterpretation and misapplication.
And Geir, correct me if I”m wrong but from what I recall of your writings, most of the hours you spent researching on the Internet was during the couple of years you were heavily into it before you resigned in 2009 and maybe a year or so after that. I have the idea that you have not had the interest to frequent the pro-Scn blogs to any great extent in the last year or two.
I have done so and have observed a changing attitude from previous fixed ways of thinking and acting that were learned as “Scientologists” in the CoS. For many people it has been an evolving process of slowly breaking out of that mentality – not an easy task – and getting a grip on what Scientology itself really is.
It will be interesting to see what happens with upcoming generations who are trained and audited by Independents who themselves are more and more free of the ways of thinking of the CoS culture.
I hope you are right about a change in tolerance.
I do wish LRH would have emphasized it more and not killed his own basic ideas with policies that preach intolerance, thought control and the creating of enemies. The future generations must remove the holiness of LRH’s writings and revise heavily the admin and ethics techs.
I very much agree with you, Geir.
I wanna add one thing – Heavily revision of tech also.There are a number of hidden improvements to be found in the existing Scientology tech. In addition I think I would like to say – Scientology is outdated, or was that too much, Geir? 🙂
Not at all. Scientology is a subject stuck in an Emergency condition. No life or creativity is injected into its improvement or enhancement. Repackaging or recompilations does not for enhancement make.
I’m afraid that the future generations may have no scientology to remove the holiness of its writing. We should save what can be saved. I wrote about it a few days ago: http://vitprofant.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/what-do-we-do/
As soon as I’m done with my studies and overview of the study tech, I’ll invite all thinkers I highly respect, including you, Geir, to have a discussion with the aim of improving the model.
I pose a question a very simple one: can a human love without any reason?
It seems usually whys and wherefores- details, accounts and explanations are given for reasons of loving something or somebody..
More reasons are listed more love larger quantity is expressed: it seems to me one loves those reasons and happy to experience them but those experiences are not the Spiritual Being itself…
Would that same adoration still be a present if those actions capabilities would not be there?
I don’t think so.
You see, likes, loves, adoration or hate-dislikes are based totally on MEST actions how is one stimulated by those actions..
Elizabeth asks: I pose a question a very simple one: can a human love without any reason?
Can you love without any reason?
Marianne,anyone can love anybody or anything as long as it aligns with truth, Is Mean the real existence, to love a falsehood is antinatural and sinful.
I’m Marianne, nice to meet you here! I have an open question to you as you are a former word clearer. Put me right if I am wrong in it. When a word is cleared, it is clear, one uses it as a free tool at a conceptual level in one’s mind and for communication in the physical world. All charge is gone, actions follow. Is that right so far? If so, we are still at the the level of mind, may it be a completely clear mind. But! the mind is a tool! A tool that consciousness formed itself into at a certain level. Freedom is just a concept in the mind and so is slavery. When one is at a deeper/different level of consciousness, one cannot find this dichotomy there. The “reality” there is different. From that “place” one is not worried and has no “purpose” to be free, there is not even a purpose – so doesn’t it seem like “advisable” to be conscious of deeper realities “from where” the clear/unclear mind can be seen as such – the MIND (as-it-is). A tool. If one can see it as a tool, one is not in it, not identified with it any more and from that “distance” one can observe and enjoy freely when “others” play balls with views and concepts, or enter the game of the Mind any time one’s
participation is needed. How do you see it? Can it be that the real Failed Purpose is not to see the Mind as a free tool? As a form/ level of Consciousness?
Hi, Marianne. Nice to meet you too!
I don’t think there is anything you wrote that I have any disagreement with. As regards cleared words, yes, they are exactly that – concepts and tools of communication and of action in the physical universe – which is why they are so valuable in the game of life with its freedom and barriers and all the other dichotomies. And I agree too that the same principle applies to the mind in general.
As for being conscious of deeper realities and stepping in and out or momentarily to the side of one’s own or others’ realities, I believe I have at least some small degree of understanding and ability in that regard too, but not to the point that you and others have described – specifically, to the point of experiencing the Oneness of consciousness.
Mostly, as I’ve indicated, my awareness is in the here and now of life and my intention is to make it as good a game as I can and to enjoy the endeavor. That’s where I’m “at”. Thanks for asking! 🙂
Thanks for your answer! Got it 100% ! “…my awareness is in the here and now of life…” “…that’s where I’m at”. That is what the whole thing is about! ONE-ness is experiencing the here and now in its totality! But what is this here and now? While you are reading my words,
you may be aware of a certain live flow underneath the words while I am writing to you and also aware of that this flow is not different from the flow underneath you reading these words. It’s the same flow – The Live Flow. It’s one characteristics of our “One-ness”, as it is the same aware flow that “you” and “I” share. The attention “I” put into writing is the same
attention “you” put into reading – Attention (undivided). One-ness is not “stepping in and out momentarily to the side of one’s own or others’ realities” – it’s rather the perception of the here and now in its “depth”. That “your” beingness, what you are NOW is not different from
“my” beingness now, it’s BEINGNESS itself. And this BEINGNESS is wast. We have different personalities, thoughts, emotions – but underneath all of this is the same consciousness. Indeed, if you closely look at an emotion eg. sadness, in the midst of it you will find consciousness itself, the same as
you are reading these words with or I read yours. That there are different experiences accompanying the recognition of our true nature are just like that – experiences. And so are the “abilities”. The truth is YOU – right here and now. This is one way I can describe it now out of my present understanding.
Nice to be in com. with you! I’m off now as it is midnight, talk to you later!
You know what I like about yours and other commenters here, who may use the words we leaned and can relate to easily, is the way you can relate to us new/old wogs or rather Special Persons, in a unique and special way. Most of us have read and studied Lrons’s stuff for years and know it. But to think for oneself and make it your own and share, is far superior and inclusive. A pleasure to read and learn from such good teachers.
Thanks, Marianne. I understand better now what you were saying. In your last comment, I thought you were talking about looking at things from different viewpoints. But I had understood from earlier comments of yours, and now again on this last one, that your primary message has to do with “Oneness”. I thought you described it pretty well, and you made it more understandable to me. Good job! 🙂
Elizabeth (Hamre) has commented on this subject many times too, here on Geir’s and on her own blog, as I think you know. Obviously, there are many others too who have this understanding. You probably saw Valkov’s post today, where he quoted some song lyrics expressing the same idea, lines which were taken from a poem written by a poet-philosopher.
Another person who has the viewpoint of Oneness is a physicist-philosopher I like a lot, Tom Campbell. He studied out-of-body experiences for a period of 30-some years (using scientific protocol, mind you) and came to the same conclusion that you have about the existence of Oneness. His term is Consciousness, or the Consciousness System, with all conscious entities being part of it.
And like you, Campbell strives to make the concept more real to people, especially left-brain Westerners since he is from this culture himself and is familiar with the ingrained beliefs to the contrary. Here’s a 4-minute video I think you will appreciate, where he talks about how to make foreign concepts such as Oneness understandable and real:
One comment to commenters: I love my teachers. Thanks to all 🙂
Hi Dee and Marildi,
Thanks! Isn’t it pure joy that we all can be teachers? Marildi….thanks for sharing the Reality! It’s always there, waiting for the You and Me to dive into it just to reveal that it has never been divided, just appeared to be so!
Love to You all!
“Can a human love without any reason?”
Yes. A quality of our true nature is LOVE. It is there, always. Ever present. That one is unconscious of it means just like that. Unconscious of it. It is LOVE in operation underneath reasoning, emotions, even MEST. When one gets conscious of the “past”, one can see that it was so in the “past” too, it is so in the “present” (which are just considerations as there is no time, you can even go that far that even reasoning is a consideration) and can get a better view of the whole picture.
That one considers oneself a human being is a consideration. And there is not even a
problem with it. The ONE CONSCIOUSNESS is in action all the time. LOVE, FREE WIILL,
TRUTH…..this is my experience.
🙂 🙂 🙂
Your divergence is admirable. Looking at the whole picture makes evaluation much more reliable.
How does one measure degrees of “tolerance” or “intolerance”? Let’s put this on a scientific basis. Do you use some kind of a meter?
One does not need science –scientists investigation to understand what is.
One is tolerant or intolerant to anything coming in at “self” into ones life how much change one can have in one’s life ” just how much one can confront”, to have or not have in other words: Havingness, what one believes allows one to have and therefore others should have the something: and that depends on how mush stimulation that person can have!!!!
Tolerance or intolerance totally depends on one believes-reality and from there the persons judges others what they should do or not to do, in fact they talking about them self…
Listen to others and hopping for good advice… well, one should look first where is that person on the Tone Scale than go from there….in other word forget the advice, the acknowledgement from other sources.
In other word… don’t bother… don’t look for advice, be your own counselor and never compromise your own reality… NEVER.. since no one knows your own universe better than you and have reality on you but yourself…
Valkov If I would have listen in 82 to the advice of the senior C/S at Flag and to stop Solo auditing, I still would be sitting At Flags door steps and waiting for some incredible heavenly vision: sign would allow me to continue with my life, my destiny and to start The Walk the Walk of on Solo auditor.
To compromise ones reality in order to belong into any group is on Overt toward self and overt toward the group.
Looks like a truth to me. Thank you Elizabeth for sharing. 🙂
Thanks my dear…. the truth is alway there… but so is the facts which makes one ignor that truth which is the Bank.
Hi Elizabeth, nice to meet you here, I have come to the blog!
“My” reality: when consciousness “IN” the one reveals itself to such a degree that it allows “one” to see that this consciousness is the same “IN” another “one” (that is the underlying truth of our BEING is CONSCIOUSNESS itself) then there is no way one can be in opposition with another one (INTOLERANT) as it would mean that “the same blood would fight against itself”. At this point the meaning of You and I lose their realities, and one starts to see that
what we call personalities, though different in their manifestations, in the CORE they are Consciousness itself – forms that arise in the Infinite for the Infinite to play with itself.
How do you see it?
How do I see what my dear? if you asking my reality about tolorance and intolorance I all ready written … unless you would like some examples? or you have a different question?
Geir, if you could come up for air for more than a minute ;), would you please fix the wordpress problem of having no indentations for replies?
LOL again … ah, love!
Right, Synthia, now we’re talking black magic. 🙂
Oh yeah! 😉 Somebody’s got a spell on somebody that’s all I’m sayin’
Just razzin’; ya Geir. We’re all so happy for you and Anette…why she’s g-o-r-g-e-o-u-s inside and out. 🙂
She’s the most beautiful person l’ve met – the full package.
I’ll try changing the theme tomorrow. That is, if there is any air to be had.
Ha ha cute! 😉
I’m not experiencing that problem. The breathing problem, yes – the WordPress problem, no. 😉 I use mostly Safari/iPhone (sometimes also IE/PC).
A changed or updated theme might solve the issue.
Anette, you are a good example for Geir of a Scientologist (or former) who has lots of ARC and tolerance – it’s perceivable from your posts. (Geir, I rest my case on Anette! ;))
Seriously, going way back I remember liking many of your comments when you posted as “OT 22”. Just from the name I always assumed that you were a man, but when I recently posted that video of Michael Buble singing “Feeling Good” and you replied,”Love that song! Thanks for sharing” – I knew instantly that you were a woman! Interesting, huh? (But, silly me, I still didn’t guess that you were “the ONE” :))
Here’s another classic for you and Geir, which you both seem to be “singing”:
I know! Lovers can live on air, but don’t use it up before you change the themes! 🙂
Thank you 🙂
Freedom is the ability to let go. This means letting go of your need to be correct or to be part of the perceived correct idea, thought or group. Scientology or other groups do not teach this type of freedom. Its called The freedom to think for yourself……
HOT STUFF: JEDGEMENTs EVALUATIONs INVALIDATIONs…..I write because I, can, just for the hell of it.
When we are judging evaluating invalidating any incoming action or thoughts considerations coming from others than in fact we are judging, evaluating how we our-self think on those subject and that is not necessarily or positively the same reality of the other person have on the same matter.
But it only seems we judge evaluate the other person because that information, but the evaluation is ours and that person never ever said anything like our evaluation is: So in fact that evaluation how that person is would be a big LIE and any evaluation of any incoming data is only our own reality and nothing more.
To believe in our evaluation that how real things are for others That would be on untruth a fabrication on invention of the bank: the mind in order to blame others and that judgment that evaluation will not make that person that: what we believe in: how we judged that person that is not that persons universe-reality but we incorrectly erroneously believe that and that is a pure undiluted “lie”.
It is our own reality our own beliefs opinions principals, views, policies, theories and philosophies what we believe in and that is our reality which is expression as our judgment evaluation.
Just think, if one would not know understand the meaning what is good or bad, important-unimportant, being a fat cow, or how a drunk behaves, what it takes being a redneck, a know it all, or when one recognize that someone is acting irrational stupid or if we would not know understand how we our-self feel, than we would not be able to understand how others feel and we than could not judge evaluate their behavior.
In fact when one judges others that judgment indicates explains points out how self thinks what one believes in how one see the world.
This makes it understandable that we don’t judge others at all we only judge evaluate how we think on that matter what others communicate to us, or what we see when we look around..
Example would be if I look at a young woman and say she is beautiful, yes I have judged expressed my reality but it is only my reality that she is lovely.
So next time judge or evaluate somebodies thinking….. FIRST Better look inside your own universe because as that evaluation judgment pin-points where is one’s own case is..
Thanks for this, I love your coms., more and more light…
Right you are…. sunglasses highly recomended to be worn at all times!!!! 🙂
Marianne I am not having fun on you but having fun with the words.. please dont mis-understand!
“fun with the words”
Copy that — over and out… 🙂
Perhaps the real problem is that we love each other so much that we would do whatever we believe is necessary to help and save each other. We love, and we care (very very much) what happens. I’m sure that’s at the bottom of all of this, no matter how misguided or even destructive the efforts may become to help each other and care for one another.
There’s a great line in the movie “the Green Mile,” when John Coffey says: “He killed them with their love. That’s how it is every day, all over the world.”
My name is MarianneToth. Time has come to join this flow of real, live communication that all of you are in and with each of your contributions changing what we call reality for the better. First, accept a heartfelt hello from the bottom of my heart, from the love I live by.
I entered here because I fully agree with you, Marianne. It is about care and love. There is a “state” when the SENSE of the I is gone.Completely. When it happens so, there is no viewpont either. When one still has a viewpoint, one has the sense of a fixed position which
one holds, protects, or tries to share with others. The word tolerance has a relevance only if one feels/thinks/senses that one IS a viewpoint. So, from this follow all
sorts of games. From the “state” with the I gone, one enters into the stream of Life, which is a Flow. The meaning of Tolerance here is Accepting everything AS-IT-IS. Not trying to control it, not trying to change it. It is accompanied by Love, live Communication through which one gets the true Reality of whatver or whoever there IS. This is the experience of
living with the flow.
Thank you for reading my comment. Enjoying every minute I share with you!
Nice to hear from you Marianne T. Like your post! 🙂
Specially “The meaning of Tolerance here is Accepting everything AS-IT-IS. Not trying to control it, not trying to change it. It is accompanied by Love, live Communication through which one gets the true Reality of whatver or whoever there IS. This is the experience of living with the flow.”
Hi, deElizabethan! Thank you! I would like to add that with the “I” gone, there is a sort of BEING ( am) which, when starts to expand with the flow gets more and more true reality of “what is out there” and when this reality is “full” one has the sense of wholeness, unity –
that what is “out there” is the same Beingness, our true nature. It’s non-division, ONE-ness. When I read the blog, I always feel the true live communication which is making it
possible that this true nature can be felt more and more. It’s beautiful!
Hi Marianne! Nice to meet you and I have to say that I love your comment — particularly your noting that a sense of fixed position is the genus of all games — i.e. holding one’s position!
It goes along with this fascinating write-up I found on Wikipedia on tolerance:
“There is only one verb ‘to tolerate’ and one adjective ‘tolerant’, but the two nouns ‘tolerance’ and ‘toleration’ have evolved slightly different meanings. Tolerance is an attitude of mind that implies non-judgmental acceptance of different lifestyles or beliefs, whereas toleration implies putting up with something that one disapproves of ” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toleration
The first is flowing, like you suggest, and probably can really own stem from a state of free-flowing love and being – it is non-judgmental. The second is judgmental and based on a belief that one has the “right” or “authorized” position, but one will “allow” those other ways or points of view — up to a point, that is and mostly in ways and locations that won’t disturb the “right” position and way. i.e. you are not allowed to step out of bounds.
Perhaps the first is love. Just love. The second is love too but with exclusions of one kind or another introduced to “preserve” love!
Awesome! Awesome! No more words needed!
GREEAAT job! I have been following your comments, the care, intensity and wisdom
you write by is fantastic!
Thanks for the above!
Marrianne, also reminds me of the mother poem I believe it’s from, that you love them enough to let them go……..
Dee…..you are such a warm spirit……walk with me….deep, very deep, to the core…..here it is the same spirit, the One….there is nothing/nobody to let go…..looking up you see different life situations in which the “parts” of the same spirit/consciousness play games for their own benefit/enjoyment/lesson-to be learnt…..here it is peaceful, very peaceful…..from here it is a full LET-IT-BE AS-IT-IS…..do you agree/feel it?
If you are still with me…..it’s Free Will…..Care of Life…..always at Tone 40……CONSCIOUSNESS IS TONE 40…….that one is not aware of it, that’s the journey about…..
MT, “from here it is a full LET-IT-BE AS-IT-IS…..do you agree/feel it?
Absolutely agree and feel it!
Guess I went into the past and thought of how I handled it with my mother before Scn but it was that ‘let it go’ (let me go) thing which she could relate too. Darn I let mother get in my thoughts still… Love her spirit always, but comm was hard for many years. I’m so used to not using the Scn terminology that it reflects in my comments and I’m glad of the reminders, thanks 🙂
Beautiful…thanks for sharing it with me….similar experience with my mother….she was waiting for me to let her go…..
I can use both terminology with no effort…..which one depends on issue/topic….I love your comments…..you can relate from a deep, pure place….joy to be here with you.
Funny…writing to you about it….the mechanics of letting a beloved one go….my mother before dying was already in a free state of being but I was not full aware of it then…later I looked at it and saw that it was the exact case….it happened many years ago….there was still the SENSE of an “I” (which for now has disappeared)…….this sense of an I stood between me (spirit) and she (spirit). In a fraction of time when this “I” and “mother” disappeared, were not being created (that is “the free spirit was let be as-it-is”) my “mother” passed away. As she has been a “mother” only at “mind level”, at a deeper level she has always been a free spirit.
Could it be that a simillar thing happened when your mother passed away? Real spirit to
Here’s my definition of integrity: To follow your path deepest within you, which you know will give you and all the rest the utmost best and most you can get from life.
This path is of course the most constructive part for all – always. But it is also the toughest route? No, it is not necessarily this way. It is also a fact that this optimum path is projected paths from life unit number one (God). So what we experience and will experience in all future is basically life unit number one’s will, transformed and well fitted for us all.
There is no other way to go for you to be really happy.
This line of consequences (The optimum path) attracts you more than it pulls you away – always.
With this in mind, here’s my answer: Tolerance does not exist without integrity. Scientology does not produce integrity for most people, which is easily understood when the researcher and developer was himself without integrity. So Scientology makes mostly fake tolerance, which is all but real tolerance, that is, based on data not belonging to your optimum path – not true wisdom.
What do you think? .)
“This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.”
Polonius to his son, in the play Hamlet” by Shakespeare
These comments on integrity, and self-determined viewpoints and actions, and being true to oneself, are all expressions of the Code of Honor. It’s a hugely mistaken idea that Scientology itself teaches a certain fixed way of thinking and acting, not even as regards the Code of Honor. But unfortunately many people are only aware of the incorrect teachings – and promote them – as they haven’t studied enough and/or for various other reasons haven’t broken free from those teachings.
“No one expects the Code of Honor to be closely and tightly followed.
“An ethical code cannot be enforced. Any effort to enforce the Code of Honor would bring it into the level of a moral code. It cannot be enforced simply because it is a way of life which can exist as a way of life only as long as it is not enforced. Any other use but self-determined use of the Code of Honor would, as any Scientologist could quickly see, produce a considerable deterioration in a person. Therefore its use is a luxury use, and which is done solely on self-determined action, providing one sees eye to eye with the Code of Honor.” (LRH)
Marildi: “But unfortunately many people are only aware of the incorrect teachings – and promote them – as they haven’t studied enough and/or for various other reasons haven’t broken free from those teachings.”
Right, but why IS that? Because of the many other writings Ron wrote that causes confusion?
deEliz, I don’t agree that there were “many” other writings that cause confusion. There were a relative few, which may even have been written in LRH’s attempts (perhaps misguided) to pull Scn from the jaws of those who would destroy it.
Be that as it may, I believe that the majority of discreditable “teachings” on the part of the CoS were a result of others’ literal (mis)interpretations of LRH materials (showing their lack of true understanding) – or downright intentional evil purposes.
p.s. And many of the so-called LRH writings or revisions were most likely not LRH at all.
Love the mystery, not! So we all come to our so-called conclusions however… fine!
I don’t quibble about it, if it works fine, if not, fine!
Well, I didn’t mean to create a mystery, which is why I listed out the sources for my conclusion.
But to be a bit more specific, part of my thinking is based on my own study and training and noting that the critics usually don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to the overall body of materials, whereas the proponents generally do, IMO. Critics seem to be solely operating off of their experience in the CoS and insisting that it is Scientology, since they know no better.
As well, those who never tire of repeating the same criticisms, even the ones who’ve had some great wins along with their disappointments and/or MUs, are apparently suffering from the phenomenon spelled out in the PL I quoted above at 2012-12-02 at 02:36, including this sum-up:
“That it really CAN be done in Scientology is not only outside their reality but regenerated the failed purpose they have had to be free and free others and they dramatize STOP.
“While this is not the total reason (interrelations also restimulate ethnic values, meaning customs), it is a big reason for dedicated opposition to us.”
(HCO PL “Purpose and Targets”)
And in case you wondered how I came to my conclusion, it is based on reading a huge number of corroborating comments by posters who were there and were part of the whole history, and who also have studied the materials extensively, both tech and admin.
This would include the websites of Marty, Steve Hall, David St Lawrence and others. One other site has been particularly diligent in research data is the wiseoldgoat website. Marty’s first book is also very informative, and I would bet that most if not all of the critics on this very thread haven’t read it or other informed accounts – which do take up the critical accounts too, btw.
Right! Today, I really don’t care to nit-pick, have a good one.
deElizabethan, you have a good one too. 🙂
So the answer to the question of why is that? You say: “I believe that the majority of discreditable “teachings” on the part of the CoS were a result of others’ literal (mis)interpretations of LRH materials (showing their lack of true understanding) – or downright intentional evil purposes.” None of it from ron I take it, we all have MU’s or evil intentions.
deE: “None of it from ron I take it, we all have MU’s or evil intentions”
Maybe I don’t get what you are saying here because I did indicate that a relative few of them were Ron’s – i.e. relative to the overall number unfortunate teachings that have gone on and still are.
Writings are said by some to be responsible for the conditions of “responsible for condition” cases. Nothing more there to explain or apologize for. The writings are not responsible. They by nature cannot be responsible. Only living beings can be responsible.
The church of Scientology has, for some time, been obsessed with how the world perceives it. It completely condemns anyone who expresses disapproval of it, and will go to great lengths in fighting its “enemies”.
It seems to be the insecure adolescent 8th grader of churches.
This mindset has filtered down to the level of public parishioner over the last many decades. There is a lot of energy spent in the church keeping parishioners away from critical people, thoughts, and influences.
But as for those people that unfriended Anette, well, we all have/had our path to travel to get away from oppressive influence of the church. Those that unfriended her will come around once they’ve had enough of the church’s schoolyard shenanigans. Or they won’t and they’ll go down with the ship.
I don’t condone the action of the people in question here, as I hold friendship on the level of “I like you for who you are” in much higher regard than “I like you because you share my beliefs”.
However, in trying to practice tolerance of my own, I looked up the definition of integrity on freedictionary.com and found it as “Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code”. Given the moral or ethical code of said people in question is Scientology, they are probably, in their own estimations, showing integrity.
Qooo, that definition of integrity is really not good enough. First of all it’s wrong. Second of all it frightens people and it does because of control. The ones who think they must have control are most likely on fear. This person defining integrity was probably around 1.0 on the tonescale. However, you are correct otherwise, in what you say. Integrity, in my viewpoint, is to walk your own way that gives you the most and best fruits from life.
I have read your recent comments and it seems we are on the same wavelength.The 2 and 3 definition of integrity is unity, wholeness, undividedness. Yes, the one who must control is in a state of fear. This fear first arises from the false concept in one’s mind that one is divided.
When one “looks inside”, lots of beliefs come to the surface but none of them is the being.
The beliefs are just that – beliefs. When one really keeps looking, one doesn’t find an entity called the ‘I’ there. What one finds is BEINGNESS (a kind of AM) accompanied by the Flow of Life itself. At this point the dividedness is gone, so is the conflict inside -and ! the conflict with what is “out there” is also gone. So, the Beingness expands. In this kind of a state one is in harmony with what there is. This is the experience “I” live by. I wonder what your experience is?
Marianne, how nice about the same wavelength. .)
Here’s my experience:
The truth revealed – never before told
Slack, Love your writing and art. 🙂 Quite unusual and a fresh look.
thank you so very much. You’re not even close to imagine how much you mean to me because you acknowledged me and liked my truth revealed as number one. Have a magic life! 🙂
You’re very welcome Slack. I know what I see and you are brilliant. However no check will be in the mail but one is always welcome. A magic life it is, when we let it be, thanks love. Happiness for you always. I will be lurking.
Well…I like your humour that shines through…that’s certainly a common wavelength…the rest? I suffered through it very patiently as what you are writing about is Greek to me…I hope you won’t get hurt by me saying that…
It isn’t greek that I am the first life unit? Either you believe it or not, right? I guess that’s the most mindblowing fact I reveal. Some must think I am crazy. Whatever.
By the way, the truth does not hurt me. 🙂
Wow! It’s getting exciting! Let me explain…first, when I use the word ‘I” from now on, it is completely free from a viewpoint (which is a fixed position), it is rather like a “package” of consciousness (different levels of awareness). Only a viewpoint can evaluate – saying you are “crazy”. Or have a belief ( a thought that something is this or that, which is the lack
of observing something thoroughly, not to see it AS-IT-IS). Reading your article “I” didn’t have a viewpoint, nor a belief…truely. The significances, the “content” was Greek to me as they are your “content”, reality. The underlying YOU, your Beingness was not at all, there is a sense there, that this YOU is using different wavelenghts depending on what the content is about. That is, your Beingness is a “package” too. AND! the core of it is that Life Unit. I hope I am not writing in “Greek” about it.
That you are a life unit gets through chrystal clearly. Unit.To me a unit is a part of a whole. First. One has a number only in relation to another. It’s separatedness/division.
If you just hold this”experience” in your consciousness effortlessly, a deeper truth may reveal itself. In my experience, if one really wants to know the truth, one gets the answers. Read my earlier comments on this chain if you like and comment on where you
have similar or different experiences, if you like.
Like you! You worked a lot! on the article! Would be interested in more of your experiences!
P.S. I used the word “suffered”.Probably you suffered too – I just got on THE wavelength.
But it’s neither YOU or ME. Just a wavelength. And here quantum physics can have a say too…
I don’t think the definition is so bad nor negative. I’ll try to explain my take – If ones ethical code were to be tolerant of everyone and one held strictly to that, one would practice tolerance no matter the difficulty. The decision if the person to strictly adhere to this code if tolerance comes from the individual and no other. This way, the individual has control over their decision to practice tolerance and demonstrate integrity by adhering to it. An ethical code doesn’t need to be a certain philosophy or religion and he strict adherence to this code doesn’t have to be enforced by anyone except the individual. I think the scary part is not the definition of integrity itself, the scary part is the idea of strict adherence to a damaging ethical code or enforced adherence (to anything). I like your definition, though – it removes the harshness of the one that I used.
I think there are a lot reasons why people fight realities of others – some just want to be right, others want to have a game and love to create those differences, a few like to suppress others and their viewpoints so they themselves have more “power”, some feel to loose their own viewpoint or beingness when they accept realites of others which are strange or extreme, and other people act on false data and think they have to squeeze everybody in their own little universe, into agreement with their viewpoints, rules, moral codes …
And if Scientologists increase their tolerance about many viewpoints with training and auditing regards life but are at the same time taught to be intolerant of critic, different viewpoints then DM and LRH, to comply with an absolutuim of moral code then they look pretty intolerant and fight like mad.
On a side note; stop and think about the word tolerance for a bit. What does it actually mean? I’ve been fightin for a minority group for almost ten years of my life, and tolerance for us is not a posetively charged word at all. What it actually says is this;
“I allow you to be the way you are, not because it actually is ok, but because I’m a so good person that I’ll allow it.”
So the person or group tolerating the counterpart are actually putting themselves above them, making a point out of them beeing separate entities with a different place in the hierarchy. Its a really disgusting word, wrapped in fine paper.
Yes, you are in a difficult POSITION. You and I, we (as a group) and them (as a group). It’s a divided state of being, consequently there is opposition, a never ending battle. If you would just care to read over what we have been writing about the disappearance of the viewpoints, you may get an understanding of how life can be really lived as a game from that FREE Non-Position! Just if you care to let it really drop inside your beingness – and comment on what you find! Read what Marianne writes about the distinction between Tolerance and Toleration!
Perhaps it was LRH’s effort to start afresh without dragging in existing connotations and denotations, that led him to coin new terms like “granting of beingess” instead of using tired old terms like “tolerance”. A change of semantic environment can be therapeutic.
you right, have my agreement, that is what the so called “well trained scientologist with some numbers after their name doing to” . I find this gross.. I wont write it down here in this blog how I feel about these people since I dont think that would be to pleasent to read… and they would only say I need auditing, handle my case…. and they would give a list what should be handled by me, but they dont realize that list describe their own needs. hehehe that too is funny…
By the way not every one of them is like that, since I have not met them all but so far 90% those who I have met… hehehe this is my reality and my experience….. and these are the people who should inspire others to attain the same state? my foot…
“When I was born I had no head
My eye was single and my body was filled with light
And the light that I was, was the light that I saw by
And the light that I saw by, was the light that I was
One light, light that is one though the lamps be many
One light, light that is one though the lamps be many”
from Douglas Traherne Harding by Mike Heron & the Incredible String Band
Hey Geir, those who disconnected following their inspection before the fact are simply attempting to predict the future in such a way as to protect themselves, they think.
They actually fit the true clinical definition of “wog”. By analogy with the concept of a cleared cannibal, perhaps some of them are actually “cleared wogs”?
As LRH said, ‘Let homo sapiens continue to sleep in the bulk”, or words to that effect.
Just go ahead and flourish and prosper.
“Many are called, but most remain clueless.”
Many are called, but most let their answer machines pick up instead.
I love this poetic part of yours for the enjoyment of us all! Masculine+feminine=the Flow of the Tao? And I also like it when you “hold your position” in space and time thus pushing us into the so far unseen parts of the game.
May you show us all the treasure you have inside the YOU for pure pleasure (smile!! good and bad – just all!). So…..?
Thanks MT. I get bored of analysis, therefore “let there be songs to fill the air”. You express yourself very pleasantly, a needed counterpoint to people like me.
Big Me + little me = ME. It appears to little me that Big Me actually decides my fate.
Could be so….that mysterious Big Me! And sometimes it happens so that when “songs fill the air” that analytical part just falls to its proper place and from then on it’s there whenever you
need it for the pure pleasure of playing with it, as Geir might say, a free tool?
ONE: There is looking and perceiving.
TWO: There is something to be looked at and perceived.
THREE: Anything perceivable may be looked upon as manifested.
FOUR: Anything manifested may be looked upon as existing.
FIVE: Nothing exists that cannot be perceived.
SIX: Knowledge comes from cross-referencing of what is perceived.
SEVEN: All knowledge is relative.
EIGHT: There is no absolute knowledge.
NINE: Unknown generates desire to know.
TEN: Desire to know generates considerations, which is knowledge.
ELEVEN: Considerations may be categorized as speculation, interpretation, conjecture, assumption, etc.
TWELVE: “God,” “Prime Mover Unmoved” “Uncaused Cause,” “Supreme Being,” “Unconditioned Being,” etc., are all considerations generated by a desire to know.
THIRTEEN: Considerations are perceivable.
FOURTEEN: Considerations may be looked upon as manifested.
FIFTEEN: Considerations may be looked upon as existing; and, thus, there is knowledge.
SIXTEEN: A manifestation is consistent with its perception.
SEVENTEEN: Knowledge is consistent when the manifestation is fully perceived.
EIGHTEEN: Knowledge is inconsistent when the manifestation is only partly perceived.
NINETEEN: Resolution of inconsistency reveals the missing aspect of a manifestation.
TWENTY: The unknown may be unveiled through resolution of inconsistencies.
TWENTY-ONE: Inconsistency appears in the concept of God as the source of existence, when God is viewed as a being with the properties of holiness, justice, sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience, benevolence, omnipresence, and immortality. Any beingness and its properties are perceivable, and, therefore, they are part of existence.
TWENTY-TWO: God is either “unknowable,” or if known, is a part of existence and not the source of it.
TWENTY-THREE: God as a being, who created the world and who rules over the universe, exists only as a conjecture.
TWENTY-FOUR: The conjecture of God has been very popular since ancient times.
TWENTY-FIVE: The conjecture of God seemingly provides a “reason” for existence and discourages closer looking into existence.
TWENTY-SIX: Existence is what is perceivable.
TWENTY-SEVEN: Truth is the recognition of what-is.
TWENTY-EIGHT: Speculations, conjectures and assumptions create inconsistencies.
TWENTY-NINE: Closer look at inconsistencies reveals new perceptions of existence.
THIRTY: Truth of existence comes from seeing things as they are.
THIRTY-ONE: Verification against another datum may establish consistency but not necessarily the truth.
THIRTY-TWO: Establishment of truth requires closer looking.
THIRTY-THREE: Establishment of absolute truth is like an infinite series. It may converge to a certain value.
THIRTY-FOUR: Non-convergence in looking for truth may point to the presence of a fundamental assumption.
THIRTY-FIVE: Fundamental assumptions are usually hidden in the fundamentals of a subject.
THIRTY-SIX: Logic is association of perceptions to visualize what else might be there.
THIRTY-SEVEN: It is looking that determines what is there. Logic can only help determine where to look.
THIRTY-EIGHT: Looking is “perceiving through the sense organs.”
THIRTY-NINE: Eye, ear, nose, tongue and body are sense organs that perceive physical objects (matter, energy, space and time).
FORTY: Mind (or an aspect of it) is a sense organ that perceives mental objects (considerations, ideas. visualizations, etc.).
FORTY-ONE: Manifestation is the same as its perceptibility, and it is its own perception point.
FORTY-TWO: Perceptibility is altered with the separation of perception point from the manifestation.
FORTY-THREE: With this separation LOOKING comes into play and so does SELF.
FORTY-FOUR: Self gathers unto itself other considerations over time.
FORTY-FIVE: Self then acts as the primary filter to looking.
FORTY-SIX: Pure objectivity is possible only with the elimination of self.
FORTY-SEVEN: With self eliminated perceptibility remains but no self-consciousness.
FORTY-EIGHT: Pure objectivity would be seeing without viewpoint. It would be seeing something for what it is.
FORTY-NINE: Self and other considerations that are added to ‘what-is’ act as “filters.”
FIFTY: Objectivity is characterized by absence of filters.
FIFTY-ONE: Space is the consideration of separation. It brings boundaries into existence.
FIFTY-TWO: Boundaries then bring individuality into existence.
FIFTY-THREE: Space may be visualized as a field made up of individual locations.
FIFTY-FOUR: Each location may be assigned individual characteristics.
FIFTY-FIVE: Thus, there is variety, there are forms, and there is a universe.
I have been waiting for your come-back! Nice propositions and so is your concept of Axiom 0.
One question: are these propositions out of Heart-Wisdom (truth coming out from BEINGNESS in the form of words)?
Vinaire, my take on the proposition one is:
There is looking and perceiving from a point of view .
To me “point of view” is an additive.
What is the nature and anatomy of that “point of view” ?
FORTY-ONE: Manifestation is the same as its perceptibility, and it is its own perception point.
FORTY-TWO: Perceptibility is altered with the separation of perception point from the manifestation.
FORTY-THREE: With this separation LOOKING comes into play and so does SELF.
FORTY-FOUR: Self gathers unto itself other considerations over time.
FORTY-FIVE: Self then acts as the primary filter to looking.
Looking could be its own filter.
I am surprised that my comment was moderated so quickly. In the past it took 3 to 4 days for my comment to appear and that is why i stopped writing here.
These propositions replace all the earlier “axioms” that I was working on. They are the result of looking into inconsistencies. They seem to go beyond BEINGNESS itself. I was surprised at the proposition FORTY-THREE:
“With this separation, LOOKING comes into play, and so does SELF.”
All these propositions may change for all I know. I am simply following the principles of looking. But then these principles themselves may be re-examined.
Are you game? Wanna play with me a little? The name of the game is Propositions.
Marianne, I shall be happy to receive any criticism in terms of precise inconsistencies pointed out on any of the propositions.
Glad you have a spirit of play! I invite you to a game which you may or may not want to play, it’s totally up to You! The name of the game is:
LET IT BE AND LET IT FALL
There is only one rule while playing it: Don’t do anything and don’t resist anything. If you can agree to it, it’s two pure actions. Here it goes:
1.Take proposition 43 in your hand just like you would take a pebble and put it over your head.
2.Open your hand and let the proposition fall; let it just fall and fall.
When the game is over, tell me what you have got.
rocks in the head????
Could be!! Taking what is solid apart! And you know what is left when solidity is gone….but let
Vin play it…
Right, let the battle of wits commence…
Do not worry; I will not be caught in the middle of game of such importance…
I have taken a fast shuttle from nowhere to equally important destination, to nowhere… and you only can find me if you know the way: by you being nothing important yourself.
Sorry to butt into your game with Vin but I love to play and hope you don’t mind.
1.Take proposition 43 in your hand just like you would take a pebble and put it over your head.
2.Open your hand and let the proposition fall; let it just fall and fall.
When the game is over, tell me what you have got.
I imagined the piece of paper being this prop 43 and did as you said. I just got the biggest laugh!! Hope you don’t mind.. from a simple (or psycho) mind.
I will be interested in answer from person asked the question of. Love different views. Dee
An open question to YOU
Have YOU wondered what that YOU really is?
Since Geir started the Amazing Persons series and with the posts following that (thanks for that, Geir) there has been a felt change – I wonder if YOU feel it too. If so, what is the sense of
that change for YOU?
Apropos of Sindy’s earlier comments about church Scientologists being “entranced”, here is Osho’s take on the Buddha’s teaching:
“Gautama the Buddha’s most fundamental message to humanity is that man is asleep. Man is born asleep.
He is not talking about the ordinary sleep; he is talking about a metaphysical sleep, a deep deep unconsciousness within you……”
Continued on this page –
To the extent that humanity perceives anything at all, perception is filtered through this state of trance, of hypnosis. Thus duplication of any communication is sometimes poor or even non-existent.
These are old teachings, pre-dating even Buddha’s time. “Hypnotists” only take advantage of pre-existing entrancements and susceptibility to them. It’s really pretty well covered in books about Dianetics, like DMSMH.
Have you ever thought about that when an “enlightened” one writes a book, that “energy” (not mest energy, but the “energy of consciousness itself) is the BASE of the writing and not the “teaching” itself? And yes, the same “energy” is in the words themselves too….
Another thing is that “masters” always give their messages IN the moment, TO a particular student or audience….A further thing is that there are all sorts of books, writings circulating in the name of the “master”, even in most cases they contain the energy/interpretation/mistranslation of the persons involved in the process…..
When I read something like Buddha said so….hm…..in that second I STOP ! don’t “take it in” into my analytical mind. This would mean an unobserved item on which quite weird considerations can build up….
With this I don’t mean to devaluate books….I happen to have read quite a lot, including OSHO…
I find one thing very useful here……RESONATE….no fixation…..resonate….
Mt, there is a lot of meat in your post. Just now I’ll say only I think the “moment” a Master is speaking in may be thousands or even millions of years long. And the “particular” student(s) or audience may be entire races of beings spanning virtually endless generations. In other words, some teachings are more basic and universal, or “common denominator-ish”, if you wish.
The point of my post was that people do not need to be hypnotized, they already are. This pre-existing hypnosis is what is exploited by some. Did LRH exploit it? I believe he was actually looking for ways to reverse it, ie, ways to “wake people up”.
Was Osho “enlightened”? Beats me. He talked a good game at times, but seemed all too ready to expect and find opposition and martyrdom. That doesn’t mean his conceptual understanding of what Buddha said was not correct.
I get your point, that is hypnosis, being hypnotized. What is the source of it in your experience?
I get it what you mean by the “moment” being very long, and also I am inviting you to google a dialogue. It is a long dialogue about the origin of life, the source, a mature mind,
the diligence of a student in seeking the truth…and of course it is one ! example of how one can “find” the truth……this particular part to me was quite interesting
as the student for a second “wakes up” from the “dream state” in front of our eyes…live…
I rarely advise anybody anything, as I find it true that one “seeks the ball” oneself….yet,
here it goes……
Krishnamurti Brockwood Park 1982 first conversation with Pupul Jayakar part 7 of 7
( I have looked at several sources of wisdom just like you, including Krishnamurti. You can as well write to me what you have found useful – I love looking at truth from different aspects). Thanks.
Some of the ideas about human nature of G.I. Gurdjieff as described by P.D. Ouspensky rang a bell with me. Ouspensky published a little book titled “The Psychology of Man’s Possible Evolution” that is pretty good. I liked the focus on self-observation and “self-remembering”, and the descriptions of the actual nature of human experience seemed quite accurate to me. His more detailed book is “In Search of the Miraculous”.
My mother is pretty enamored of Krishnamurti. I have read only a little of him, maybe enough to get the flavor.
Thanks Valkov….the Gurdjieff, Eli-Jaxon Bear, Gangaji, Papaji, Osho “line, path?” is one facet of the jewel to me.
I haven’t read anything by Ouspensky, I will look at it. Thanks.
For me it’s interesting to see the different paths that lead to the top of the mountain. And it’s also interesting to see that for a path to appear on the mountain, there must be a mountain in the first place. Walking on a path, the scenery is different. When some reach the top, they look at each other and smile. They feel the mountain under their feet with no more path and the scenery is the same.. So there is nothing to say about it. Silence and joy in their hearts. To break this silence, to give more joy to the moment, they start to
tell about their paths……isn’t it beautiful?
Anyone currently following the saga of Scientology in society maybe interested in this account of a commune founded in Oregon by students of Osho in the 1980s, when he was known as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.
It raises some questions in my mind, about how much “tolerance” actually exists in “society” towards those who dance to the beats of different drums.
There is an Swedish saying, that “the nail that sticks up, gets hammered down.” At least the Swedes openly acknowledge the extant social reality, rather than paying lip service to “freedom”.
Fascinating article. I’ve noticed that there is often a ploy to enact or use local government regulations or ordinances, effectively bypassing constitutional rights or legislative law at the state or federal level. Local intolerance is very much still in evidence it seems.
This question is very interesting and could be looked at from another aspect, that of physics, especially quantum physics. Here is where Geir could share his knowledge with us
if he comes on-line.
Let me explain what I mean: It may all boil down to the movement of energy. Given an enlightened being (presumably close to pure consciousness) his “wavelenght” will be so pure that “lower, cruder” wavelengths cannot harm “him”. When this Being gathers a “group”
of different individuals around him, these individuals have and thus release very different types of waves – “into” the community and into the bigger community, the “culture” they live in. These waves will attract similar/same types of waves from the bigger community into the
small one and given enough “lower” waves accumulated, it will destroy the community as such. Another aspect is that when one is in agreement with others in a group, these agreements (considerations) also have their energetic cores, kind of solid or very pure lines
(close to pure love) that will follow the laws of attraction, mixing with, or pushing away. So we get the “web of LIFE” underneath the manifested culture that we see with our physical eyes or think about with our minds hoping that it all can be solved at “mind” level.
Geir….will you come on-line and enlighten this question from top physics, considerations-forms of consciousness – anyway, from your present knowledge. Thanks.
ONE: There is looking and perceiving.
TWO: There is something to be looked at and perceived.
THREE: Thus there is manifestation and perception.
FOUR: Physics is a study of manifestation.
FIVE: Metaphysics is a study of perception.
There is a no-time, not even looking “THAT” (no word for that), in scio perhaps static,TONE 40, in life Awareness operating without the “person” being aware of it. Kind of pure consciousness/the field/the zone operating for the benefit of all. That it happened so, the person involved in it gets conscious of it after the manifestation has manifested itself. What’s your experience of it?
And….did you do the game?
I am going by obnosis here. I am not going to speculate at all. My intention is to really understand the interface between Physics and Metaphysics. I am sure we’ll run into the concept of tolerance along the way. Or it may simply require some tolerance to deal with this inquiry.