I would like to extend my deep respect for scientologists, past and present – whether they are in the church or outside or no longer consider themselves scientologists.
Because the vast majority of them have harbored at least one of two basic drives; To help others or to attain something greater than themselves.
I believe both purposes deserve credit.
These purposes are often held so strong by a scientologist that he or she is willing to tolerate serious infringement to own personal integrity. Some even sign a contract for one Billion years of service to dedicate themselves to helping others. Such acts have serious implications to one’s own mental health – but the purpose therein is nevertheless highly commendable.
Repeated breaching of one’s own integrity will make the person lose himself and eventually void his ability to help others.
My deep respect for the intention to help and to forward spirituality is coupled with my wish for scientologists to keep their integrity – in order to fulfill their purposes.
Geir Isene - uncut 
I have deep respect for those Scientologists who were able to maintain their integrity throughout their association with Scientology.
I wish the best for other Scientologists who lost their integrity, that they will be able to recover it fully.
The goes for anybody who has ever been involved with Scientology.
Past and Present Scientology insiders know the difference…
I hope Jenny Linson, Marc Yager and Dave Bloomberg see this.
I, as well, have and have had respect for those scientologists that kept their integrity or recovered such in an epiphanic moment, just like these ones …
I wonder if Respect is a word defined by LRH in the scientology dictionary.
Good video, Rafael. Thank you.
You are welcome David Fennick , here is a person that explains it better this integrity subject than me, Karen # 1 ( aka. war and peace ) …
and this post goes with it too:
http://www.scientology-cult.com/karen-de-la-carriere-blog/815-church-of-scientology-justifications–frightening-guru-devotion.html
my respect for you dear David Fennick.
Yeah I agree.
The problem is usually the disrespect starts from few and then some try to point it out, and if general tags (like ‘Scientologist’) are used, instead of specific name(s), it expands and becomes war. I must ‘confess’ I’ve been doing that too, as I found it harsh to point out specific names in public. I’m still not going to point out, as I don’t have to be in contact with them, and anyway the right person to point that out to is those specific persons, about specific situations. I say let them be. And at least respect those who respect (Something like ‘grant beingness’ in Scientologese).
“Some even sign a contract for one Billion years of service to dedicate themselves to helping others. Such acts have serious implications to one’s own mental health…”
From what I know of SO members, I would say most of us joined with our integrity in. It was a knowing and willing commitment based on the data we had and for the reasons you correctly stated.
If the circumstances hadn’t changed (which of course they did), I don’t see why there would have been “serious implications to one’s own mental health.”
It seems to me that if people choose the game they want to play and do so, or attempt to, that equates to personal integrity. It’s only when it is no longer what they chose – and they are aware of that but keep playing anyway – that integrity goes out along with mental health.
Just a bit of my billion cents worth. 😀
To lock oneself to one specific game with a set regimen outside one’s own control for one billion years is undoubtedly the most naive of decisions and bound to have serious hazardous effects on one’s mental health in the long run.
But Geir, we didn’t see it as being locked into a set regimen. There was supposed to be no limitations to what you might contribute to such a group. Its basic purpose was to enhance all 8 dynamics, so it was totally up to you and your ability to create your job. That was something LRH described in *Problems of Work*. Remember? I can probably find and quote the passage if you like. 😉
Oh, and besides, I agree with what Spyros wrote about mental health implying “there is a proper way to think and act.” Your belief that no one in their right mind would want to be “locked into a set regimen” is just that – a belief. It’s based on your own considerations of how things should be, which is fine – for you. But one size doesn’t fit all. We learned that in Scientology. 🙂
Of course you didn’t see it like that. If you did, you wouldn’t have joined. Would you have signed a life contract with a company, knowing full well that corporate policies was something beyond your control? It is the recipe for personal integrity breaches.
Well, consider this, then: We keep “joining” the physical universe knowing full well that its policies (laws of physics) are something beyond our control. That could be looked at as a breach of integrity too. In both situations, however, there was a particular game that we chose to play. Both games include specific barriers – and particular purposes. They say that even some of those who have attained Nirvana choose to return as they still have purposes in this game.
Not that I can’t see your viewpoint. I’m not sure I would make the same choice in the future as I did in the past. Something different might be more to my liking and evolution in various ways.
I don’t believe you would claim that a person descending from Nirvana to this would have their personal integrity unblemished. I think you have proved my point.
Where is Valkov when I need him?!
But on a quick search, I did find this for you:
“When you achieve nirvana, you stop accumulating bad karma because you’ve transcended it. You spend the rest of your life and sometimes future lives ‘working off’ the bad karma you’ve already accumulated.
“Once you have fully escaped the karmic cycle, you achieve parinirvana — final nirvana — in the afterlife.” http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/nirvana1.htm
.
Possibly a better example to make the point would be the bodhisattva:
“Term for the historical Buddha Gautama prior to his enlightenment as well as for other individuals destined to become buddhas. In Mahayana Buddhism the bodhisattva postpones attainment of nirvana in order to alleviate the suffering of others. The ideal supplanted the Theravada Buddhist ideals of the arhat and the self-enlightened buddha, which Mahayana deemed selfish. The number of bodhisattvas is theoretically limitless, and the title has been applied to great scholars, teachers, and Buddhist kings. Celestial bodhisattvas (e.g., Avalokitesvara) are considered manifestations of the eternal Buddha and serve as savior figures and objects of personal devotion, especially in East Asia.” http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bodhisattva
Agreed, marildi. The reasons I and many others were sold into the S.O. basically came down to “This is the biggest game in the Universe” and “Because you’re so O.T.”. I think we were expected to believe these reasons were senior to any other considerations. Of course, we all wanted to believe it as well.
Hi, David. For me it was a little different. I didn’t think of it as the biggest game – in my mind, it was the BEST game. 🙂 We were going to change conditions across the dynamics and throughout the universe. I truly thought that in the long run it was the best way I could help even my personal friends and family members.
And the idea of being part of a group of individuals who felt the same way was also very appealing. I remember first getting to know people when I was new. For the most part, they really were great people, on top of being dedicated to the same great cause that we all shared.
Mind you, I might not have made the same choice if I knew then what I know now, but I don’t spend any time regretting any of it – it was an experience, maybe no less beneficial for all concerned than any other path I might have taken, for all I know. The thing about negative experience is that it gives you a lot to learn from. In fact, I think some philosophers believe you actually need those hard times in order to grow spiritually. A version of “No pain – no gain.” 🙂
M.:” It’s only when it is no longer what they chose – and they are aware of that but keep playing anyway – that integrity goes out along with mental health.”
There is a lot of truth to that, and I’ve seen it happen. Personally, though I could see the collapse of the ideals enfolding, I would have loved to stay at my post as I saw regularly, if not daily, the benefits that could be gained by someone taking another step at understanding the mind.
I’m glad I didn’t (stay), only in that I exited just pre GAT1 and missed its soul-crushing, auditor-wrecking implementation. That there were auditors and solo auditors that made it through post GAT1 says something more about their individual characters, I believe, than it does about the efficacy of the GAT years. GAT2 is simply a confirmation of the general failure of GAT1 and the future failure of GAT2 seems already written.
I was fortunate enough to work with incredibly proficient auditors, C/Ses and some sup’s over the years, and, were it not for SO missions that would rip up our org every time we got it running smoothly, it’s difficult not to imagine the possibility of our org having gone Saint Hill sized. Not many people may have been as fortunate (to see the workability of the tech when sanely delivered) as I and a handful of others here, and that’s a real shame.
It’s only when it is no longer what they chose… Therein lies the failure: trying to run an enforced “must have (Scientology)” on staff and public. If only the individuals own choice had not been acknowledged – good or bad – it is likey that more people would have returned after a departure period. The freedom to come and go, unenforced and unrestrained, must be an essential ingredient to attaining any lasting freedom.
Hopefully at some near future point we will again have a chance to bring “understanding of the mind” to a point of general desirability. Hopefully we will have worked out the means to make that understanding broadly accessible.
Doing so is not a trivial task.
Despite the benefits proposed by and gained from various other “-ologies”, there are still benefits to be gained from the mindful understanding of basic Scientology that I have not seen as surpassed by these other “-ologies”. One might summarize those benefits within a single page but it still takes a fair volume of information and hatting to get from the point of the summary to the point of understanding in a way that enables the individual to care for him-/her-self, i.e. be able to address charge as a solo auditor, with or without a meter. It’s an inescapable fact that “charge” (however you want to call it) happens and this can at times be severe and debilitating. A lot of us wanted help, or to help, with this in the past. This is still a very possible goal. It may even be that the goal will be safer to explore and achieve in the future because of its ignoble past and our accumulated knowledge of the traps that lie within. I really hope so.
2ndxmr: “Personally, though I could see the collapse of the ideals enfolding, I would have loved to stay at my post as I saw regularly, if not daily, the benefits that could be gained by someone taking another step at understanding the mind.”
Yes, now that you mention it, that’s how it evolved for me too – it gradiently kept getting worse until the “worse” finally outweighed the observable benefits across the dynamics.
You made some other excellent points too, including especially this one:
“If only the individuals own choice had not been acknowledged – good or bad – it is likely that more people would have returned after a departure period. The freedom to come and go, unenforced and unrestrained, must be an essential ingredient to attaining any lasting freedom.”
(Btw, I got that in the first sentence you included the word “not” by mistake and that it should read “If only the individual’s own choice HAD been acknowledged…” Correct me if I’m WRONG. 🙂 )
+1 on the rest of your post too. Awesome how you succinctly summed up the whole picture. And correctly so, IMHO.
I agree with this sentiment, respect is due to all who contributed to the noble experiment of scientology.
The horror of those billion-year contracts was that they ensnared the best and bravest. The first SO member that I ever knew said “Well, we’ve go to be somewhere for the next billion years, why not here?” Over 40 years later, she and her husband are still slaving away for the church, and with their integrity intact I believe. Such heroes can walk through a sewer and come up smelling of roses.
Thanks for your respect and admiration. I am still a scientologist, but I never agreed with the methods of the church and avoided any real involvement, like enter as staff or disseminate to the church. I felt a danger I could withstand, but I could not expose others to. So I used of the tech what I could agree and was real to me and left what did not convince: I kept always an illuminist point of view and when I could withstand it no more I walked out in the mid of OTVII. I do not give up in looking for what I studied scientology for and I could find similar concepts in other thinker like Deepak Chopra and most of them Panache Desai which allowed me to raise even further in the steps of my finding more truth and enlightenment, more peace, grace and ease in the blessing of my beautiful life.
tore:”So I used of the tech what I could agree and was real to me and left what did not convince:…”
I applied the same handling to data I disagreed with or thought incomprehensible. Sometimes I later changed my mind.
Here’s one such datum from Scn 8-80 which I never fully understood until just yesterday as I was probing some equations from quantum mechanics.
The formula of the energy of life source which has been tentatively advanced is:
Life = (E*I / -R) * (-f)
If:
E = Energy Potential
I = Energy Flow
-R = Negative Resistance
-f = Negative Frequency
It may take more explanation than this, but my hangup was in the term “-f”, negative frequency. Well, that’s now pretty simple: colors are frequencies of light that are reflected(and that would be a “+f”), absorbed colors are the “-f”.
So Life is proportionate to what the Life Source can willingly absorb and experience.
Similarly with the negative resistance: we can positively resist things (ex. “I just hate …!”) or we can experience them without resistance or we can actively absorb the experience: a negative of resistance.
OMG, that is awesome! Once again, it seems that science is catching up to LRH. And I love how you saw that!
You wrote (emphasis in caps is mine):
“So Life [specifically, “the ENERGY of life source,” according to the first sentence you quoted] is proportionate to what the Life Source can willingly absorb and experience …we can POSITIVELY RESIST THINGS…or we can EXPERIENCE THEM WITHOUT RESISTANCE or we can ACTIVELY ABSORB THE EXPERIENCE: A NEGATIVE OF RESISTANCE.”
It seems obvious that the above must relate to what is happening in restimulation, in auditing, and even in TRs:
Restimulation comes about when we “POSITIVELY RESIST THINGS.” This is also how ridges are formed – and continue to be built up.
As for both auditing and TR0, I would say the pc/student is “ACTIVELY ABSORBING THE EXPERIENCE” by directing energy (in the form of attention units) at specific energy manifestations (charge).
In OT-TR0, we “EXPERIENCE THEM [energy manifestations or charge] WITHOUT RESISTANCE” as there is no directed energy – one is simply to BE there.
This “NEGATIVE OF RESISTANCE” I suppose would also explain a low TA, where the person has gone into apathy to a degree that he is overwhelmed by charge and his resistance to it is little to nothing.
Anyway, that’s my take off the top of my head. Your (or others’) mileage may differ in whatever ways. In any case – wow! Great post, 2X.
I don’t believe in mental health anymore. It implies there is a proper way to think and act and that some (a majority maybe) have and some others (maybe a minority) doesn’t have. The thing is who is in an objectively mental healthy condition to judge what those standards of ‘healthy’ and ‘unhealthy’ are? By being out of SCN for long, I saw things that I disagreed with, being repeated outside of SCN. I don’t want to sit and point them out now. But to say the least, those things are unnecessary, yet very popular.
In SCN and anywhere else, when somebody enters, brings with him his ‘luggage’, and if such luggage is common, they blend in with SCN and become the group’s reality.
I could possibly be committed for more than a billion years to something that I myself would deem worthy. But every moment I would be making this choice by myself, not because of some contract. So then, ‘forever’ would be ‘for as long as I want to’.
Although I haven’t walked the SCN path thoroughly, I’m glad to have been involved with another -ology. I don’t really compare which is better or worse, but more like which one is closer to my ‘want’s. It is useful to have a variety for then nobody can conquer one -ology to give it in exchange for whatever he wants. It’s the same as trading. While in SCN I had the belief that -ology would go all the way –what I imagined ‘all the way’ to be like. But because of what I learned from people who had known that whole way, I wanted more.
This is a nice cathartic post Geir, I think my needle’s floating, lol.
Nicely put. I have respect for all peoples in and out of any organization. I deeply respect those who do not harm others and are worldly, or fully aware of what they are doing.
Thank you for this nice post, Geir.
It is an important thing to recognize and remember. And to acknowledge, as you have done.
It’s my wish that those who have been abused and betrayed by Scientology, by both the church and by the imperfect and often self-serving technology and policies of its founder, will continue to look and educate themselves on what happened to them, until they reach the point of resolution for themselves and can move forward.
Geir, it was YOUR email I opened some 5 years ago that started me looking on the internet about Scientology. Since then, I’ve experienced the de-powering of Scientology over my life on a personal level and on a macro scale, I’m witnessing the ongoing collapse of the monster that is the church.
I’ve made some fine friends along the way and my closest church friends have also left in varying degrees.
It has been a great journey, and a liberating one, and I can say as well that I’ve come to appreciate the positive effects of my experience in Scientology in a broader context.
I’d graduated Scientology some time ago, but I stayed too long on the campus. Like college, I can look back at Scientology, both the good and the bad, without wanting to go back.
So thank you for your voice, and your persistence. It made a big difference for me.
Thank you for that strong acknowledgement.
Really nice post John Doe. 🙂
Good post, decided to check in with you on FB and saw this.My wife Betsy and I were walking a long the beach in Newport Beach Sunday and I made the Origination that I wondered if I was half of my entire life being in the Sea Org for 25 years, after some pondering I decided no- as much shit I went through, I did get a lot out of it. Now having done the RPF 4 times and that “cycle ” taking 4+ years def was a wasted time. Cheers.
Nice to hear from you again ☺
meant to say wasted on the 25 years. Have to do another visit some day Geir.
I agree. In the meantime you guys could make a trip to the beautiful Norway 😉
You know I have to admit it. I like Scientologists a lot. The mythos creates a derring-do mentality that is contagious.
Scientology on its best side has some ballsy people (and on the worst side – a sea of broken lives, bankruptcies and destroyed families).
But, in spite of the immense suffering, it’s been fun to see the celebs portray Scientology in movies with the best parts of their mythology displayed on purpose: Like Will Smith and his character “Hancock” where the OT message of spiritual separation between beings must be made for full power to be restored.
Tom Cruises latest movie “The Edge of Tomorrow” mirrors the auditing process of facing incidents over and over and becoming fearless and stronger as one progresses forward in the conquest of space/time. People love that notion.
John Travolta’s angel “Michael” was awesome. I liked that dopey movie a lot.
Grand Cardone is a great motivational guy and ballsy as fuck.
Geir is no longer a Scientologist but he really has a great streak of innovation in him.
Alanzo? Well, “God-Like” is the only way to describe Alanzo. Some of his courage probably came from Scientology, but I think Al has his own magic. And he has taken a lot of abuse for the sake of helping his abusers.
And in spite of the full-on crazy in Marty’s latest Airport Escapade, one has to admit that it takes serious balls to go up and try to rip someone a new one in a public airport on camera, even if it ends in failure.
Scientology fails to create it’s end products as promised, but in some ways creates a cool culture that holds courage as a high ideal.
Never forget that there is something to the notion of failing greatly. Some say pride goes before a fall. But I say …
“It aint falling when you jump.”
The world needs this kind of courage and a better mythology to deliver it.
A skillful kata delivers 😊
+1
Skillful writer – and funny!
You make me wanna be a better scientologist. 😀
Oh, and you are my favorite Honorary scientologist. 😉
Geir, what a great job man!,
I get a picture of an immense cloud suddenly approaching over head, and delivering huge drops of that ‘heaven-sent’ sweet smelling rain. Rain that comes down in ‘buckets’. It’s a spectacle. You watch it, transfixed in fascination.
The puddles soon turn into little torrents, The torrents carry away all manner of debris and decaying matter.
The air becomes positively charged again, enriched with oxygen.
You breathe innnnnn… ahhh!… and feel deeply reinvigorated…. You become aware of the same change in your surroundings too.
The rain eventually ceases, the clouds dissipate, as the skies begin to clear and after a while, things start to dry out a little. But as you proceed to take a walk, to take in the ‘freshness’, in the bright sunshine, your attention sweeps out across the sparkling cleanliness, and ‘renewal’ of life, that follows in the wake of that simple, but all-powerful natural event, most of us just take for granted. — yet remain truly, & completely dependent upon!
Thank you, for creating a gentle, cleansing, “shower”, of your own. The air definitely has become easier and more invigorating, to breathe, and the environment now cleansed of a lot of chopped-up, jagged and useless communication ‘particles’ 🙂
The ‘good’ thing though, is that all the well ‘rooted’, stuff, is still there, making up the scenery. And one can of course, ‘visit’ there any time one wants — come rain or shine!
Never fear though, for you can count on ‘us’ to soon recreate all the usual ‘clutter, junk and debris’, before you need to send in another squall to wash away the damage again!
Thanks bro. 🙂
Nice. Very nice 😊
(bows to you) 🙂
+8
Ah.. always expect the bright ‘Sunshine’ to appear after the rain. 🙂
who ?
I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I’d like you to know that it was this very attitude that shone through your original doubt formula, which was a major turning point for me. I salute you!
Thank you, Maria ☺
(my post ended up in a strange spot!) It is directed specifically to Geir!
Thanks for the kind words Geir and Marildi.
Regarding deep respect. . .
“Self nature is mysteriously profound. In the one Dharma, not giving rise to the thought of distinction between sentient beings and Buddhas is called the Precept of not speaking falsely of the Three Jewels*. – Bodhidharma
http://hardcorezen.info/carved-into-the-universe/3134#comments
(*) “the Three Jewels” are the Buddha, Dharma, and Sanga.
Beautiful quote, KG. Uplifting! ❤
Here's one on a similar wavelength:
"Beneath the dirty cloth of aberration, they loved each other well."
(DMSMH)
I don’t think anyone is aberrated, and I can demonstrate it.
Prep for this and then try it M.
For five seconds, stop all thought and be a fully enlightened being radiating into all realities. Then do it again, STRONGER.
Keep the cycle going.
If you can’t do that, go for 1 second. Or HALF a second.
Once you can do that, go for ten seconds of complete enlightenment. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
Anyone can do this. Even “aberrated” peeps.
Then go have some lunch, coffee, life or whatever. Because enlightenment?
DONE!
This is so American. How about trying it out with ISIS.
I just put together the following on enlightenment.
A View on Enlightenment
.
Actually, it’s Japanese. Add the posture of Zazen and that’s Dogen’s view of enlightenment. It’s something you do. Something you choose. Something you practice and get better at.
Katageek, I don’t think enlightenment can be willed. It just happens. So, I think you have an American version.
Here again, I’m thinking it’s semantics, Vin.
Kata basically says to DO it – yes, willfully – i.e. with intention. But isn’t it also a willful (i.e. INTENTIONal) doingness in the East when one sits and meditates with the INTENTION to achieve enlightenment? In that sense, it doesn’t “just happen.” The actual basis for both methods is intention (or postulation), IMHO.
Vin, why not just try Kata’s recipe and see if it works. It would be a shame if others tried it successfully while you stood on the sideline insisting that it couldn’t work, don’t you agree?
I never said anything against it. That to me is usual fare.
But I don’t think everybody can be successful with it. Maybe ISIS has their own version of it that keeps them going.
Marildi, In Hinduism and Buddhism, one can simply prepare the ground for enlightenment, but even then it may or may not happen. Genetic code is also involved in it..
“Genetic code is also involved in it.”
Is that actually according to Buddhism or Hinduism?
The Sanskrit word is samskara. And my understanding is that they are transmitted through the genetic code..
That would make sense.
Did you mean “SaNskara” (with an “n”)? I just looked it up and in Wikepedia it says:
“Sanskara, the Hindu concept of imprints left on the mind by experience.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samskara
Yes, it can be written both ways. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskara
Full enlightenment comes with Kaivalya samadhi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali
Of course one can think of every realization as an “atom” of enlightenment. That will be more of a western view.
That would include the scientological view. The construct is expressed as freeing up quantities of the enturbulated theta of the past until all one’s inherent theta had been disenturbulated. At that point, one would theoretically have arrived at the knowingness of enlightenment — but that is an ultimate no one has yet achieved with scientology, as far as I know.
Recently, I’ve been learning about Eckhart Tolle’s view, which is quite similar to scientology in many ways, including his construct of the ‘pain-body’. That concept is the same as the reactive mind, from what I can tell. Then there is what he calls the ‘egoic mind’, which would include the pain-body and all the conditioning of the analytical mind as well.
His methodology is similar to both scientology and Buddhism but significantly different in some ways too (at least with respect to some Buddhist sects) in that, for one thing, he has the student practice being “mindful” (non-egoic) in everyday life.
My translation of that practice into scientologese would be to say he teaches them OT-TR0 – to simply “BE there” – and then to respond or act only after pervading the area, i.e. after LOOKING, which is essentially TR-0 – BE there and confront. Basically, they LOOK with awareness (or consciousness, as he usually terms it) at what is presented to them in life, and as they do, their responses are not based on ego, which is essentially fear, but on direct perception.
In essence, the person would see the situation for what it is, without any ‘filters’ but rather with an understanding, first of all, that most people are “unconscious” (his word) and “know not what they do” (he quotes Jesus) – and eventually (along with practicing meditation, I think) they would gain an understanding of the Oneness in the workings of everything and every being in the universe. In other words – enlightenment.
In short, with this practice in life, the “egoic mind” is gradually weakened and (I assume) ultimately has no effect at all – similar to the concept of clearing in scientology, except that the egoic mind would include both the reactive and the analytical, the latter being all conditioning – right down to conditioning as a human due first of all to having a body.
In effect, one becomes cause over both the reactive and analytical minds by becoming cause over the egoic mind through practice in life; whereas, in Scientology, you become cause over the reactive mind primarily with auditing, and the analytical mind primarily with training and education.
Any questions? I’ll be quizzing you on all this. 😀
I see Buddhism as purified and scientific rendition of Hinduism.
Haha! I join the club of those who like the quote you put here, kata! i also like your proposed exercise and the ‘done’. Question
is if its truth stays as such in this world of relations. This question
is in relation to my question to you: how do you see the second part of marildi’s com as related to ‘enlightenment’?
I don’t understand the first question Marianne. I think you are asking “How does such an enlightenment help in the real world?” so I’ll answer that.
Well, I think that one can sit in Zazen and CHOOSE to liberate from all suffering and experience full enlightenment even if in a brief spell.
Every. Day.
During real suckage and torture, there is some comfort in knowing that later that day one can SIT and CHOOSE to be a fully liberated being if even for a millisecond. Even if 24 minutes of the 25 minute sit sucked. There is an infinitude in a minute. Or 10 seconds. Or a second.
One can experience a full break as an enlightened being from severe suffering for at least one second to touch and be infinity. And THAT is something.
Afterward, one goes right back to misery. But the misery is more bearable knowing SOME control always exists to drop body and mind.
Well, regarding your second question, I think the Enlightenment issue came up because of the “Aberrated” issue. I don’t think the mysteriously profound self nature can be aberrated any more than the number Pi can be abberated.
Thanks kata. I have questions but i’d rather ask them one by one.
You may have experienced that in that experience of ‘liberation’
there is no ‘control’. Or is there in yours?
KG, I would venture to say that you,Marian and myself would all be in agreement – and are – if it were not for the confusion of words. The experience of beingness, awareness, consciousness, oneness, infinity, love, enlightenment…(take your pick) are all “apart from” from the world of relations or relativity.
Oh, and I’ll add “knowingness” to the list of words from which you can “take your pick,” In many practices, East and West, you basically go from “Look” (which involves intention) to “Know.”
Katageek, In dirty water somewhere there is pure H2O.
Well, Mairianne, the way I view it, once one can be infinite in a span of time, ANY time, then one becomes all potentials BY DECISION. As all potentials, there is no control because all potentials are “done.”
Going with the notion that if something is possible, it exists somewhere. Therefore, using this notion it is “done” already.
The sense of control I speak of is the comfort one gets in our reality with the ability of Zazen to break the dream and embrace reality as reality.
And for the former Scientologists and Indies and lurkers, you may be interested in this bit by Zen Master Dogan, whose notion “Zazen is enlightenment” still is very controversial in Buddhist circles.
“Although we study the words of the ancient that “The whole Universe is the ten directions is one eye,” the whole of the ten directions is just one eye, And furthermore, there are thousands of eyes on the tips of the fingers. There are thousands of eyes of the right Dharma. There are thousands of eyes in the ears, there are thousands of eyes on the tip of the tongue, there are thousands of eyes on the tip of the mind, there are thousands of eyes of the thoroughly realized mind, there are thousands of eyes of the thoroughly realized body, there are thousands of eyes on top of a stick, there are thousands of eyes in the moment before the body, there are thousands of eyes in the moment before the mind, there are thousands of eyes of death in death, there are thousands of eyes of liveliness in liveliness, there are thousands of eyes of the self, there are thousands of eyes of the eternal world, there are thousands of eyes in the concrete place of eyes, there are thousands of eyes of learning in practice, there are thousands of eyes aligned vertically, and there are thousands of eyes aligned horizontally. Thus we study that the totality of the eyes is the whole Universe, but still this is not physical mastery of the eyes. We should make it an urgent task to investigate, through the eyes, [the action of] just hearing the non-emotional* preaching of the Dharma.”
(*) The “Non-Emotional Preaching of the Dharma” is how reality itself preaches the Dharma to itself and the emotionally blinded others. This Dharma is beyond human reasoning because humans must feel first to think. Every human thought has a precursor of human emotion. So, by that definition, people cannot experience the “non-emotional Dharma” through thought because an emotion is required for a thought to occur.
And in case you missed this point in Dogen’s bit ..
“Thus we study that the totality of the eyes is the whole Universe, but still this is not physical mastery of the eyes.”
“Thus we study that the totality of the eyes is the whole Universe, but still this is not physical mastery of the eyes.”
On enlightenment, it seems that the person breaks through the confinement of a narrow self and starts to view the reality from the viewpoint of reality itself.
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That’s how I see it.
So, why should I not do it RIGHT NOW? For ten minutes? I’ll fail several times in that ten minutes to stay enlightened, but I’ll hit it more than once.
Once at my Zendo, it was my turn to say something and I told the group the following.
“I’m William Harper. I’m enlightened. Why? Because I practice Zazen. In fact, I was fully enlightened before breakfast today. Why? Because I practiced Zazen then which is enlightenment. I usually handle the enlightenment thing before lunch daily.”
The leader of the group’s face twisted. He writhed a little, gusted a bit, and then pointed at me and shouted.
“YES! THAT’S IT.”
He really liked me after that. Sadly, my Zendo is far from my home and I don’t get there as often as I like.
It is a matter of terminology. I see enlightenment as something permanent.
It is the way Clear is different from Key-out.
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I don’t think that there is such a thing as permanence, not enlightenment and certainly not Clear.
Geir, it may be so in the context of Scientolgy, In Hinduism, one goes for much higher stakes. Check out the following book that I am studying these days.
http://www.amazon.com/Four-Chapters-Freedom-Commentary-Patanjali/dp/8185787182
BTW: This week’s episode of Doctor who had Who-esque-Thetans save the earth! They called themselves “The Life that Prevails.” The episode was called “In the Forests of the Night.”
The dialogue between the Doctor and these entities is really interesting from a spiritualist’s point of view.
The Doctor can always whisk you away for months and bring you home a moment right after you left.
Like this, enlightenment-zazen is my own Tardis to freedom. If I can get ONE SECOND of a dropped body and mind, an entire eternity can be experienced as liberation.
And then I always get dropped off right where I left off. And during the wiser days of my life, I can touch this freedom when things suck even when not sitting.
On my wiser days anyway.
Kata, thank you ever so much! While reading your com about
the ‘eye’ i had the experience in a flesh of an instant that the
‘whole’ is no-thing else than ‘source’, an intangible ‘eye’. I also
experienced a ‘flow’ on which you wrote your com and it had the
sense of fully alive, a pure live stream and affinity (love) which
fills each concept in writing. Its sense is like thousands of flowers
blooming. Thank you for this experience, it’s beautiful!
Wow. Thanks for the feedback Marianne!
kata…as for feedback…can you give it a possibility that this feedback mirrors the input from the origin ( you) ? …or partially ?
i was also looking at your com in which you write: ‘Sadly, my zendo
is far from my home and i don’t get there as often as i like’. i know
this feeling…truth is, it stops when the sense of ‘me controlling’ stops…when the ‘ Zendo’ ceases to be a ‘special’ place…..it does
not mean that it is not in your heart or that you don’t go there any
more…
Adyashanti was practising Zen for many years…when he finally
‘woke up’, he did not say a word to his teacher for a month…when
he finally did, he was hesitant to tell it to his teacher but he did.
He said: It is much bigger than Zen. His teacher answered: That’s
it!
You may google Adya…the True Meditation CDs (it has 3 parts).
You may or may not listen to it…i always listen to that which i am
drawn to, so i put it here as a possibility.
Yup. Done.
Geir, good point, brings balance to a polarizing subject. There’s no need to create or perpetuate an adversarial attitude toward well meaning people whose greatest difference from most of those posting or reading here is that they’re simply at a different point on their learning curve about the relative merits and liabilities of the organization they are currently invested in. I’ve observed, and experienced, how the C of S indoctrinates participants to have “self-righteous hostility” toward those with contrasting views, and how so many, after severing ties with the organization, believe and/or declare themselves to have waken up from the mentality they assimilated, yet still display the same mentality, albeit now directed at the organization they left. A rather superficial difference, as they are still playing the game of conceiving of “the other side” as one-dimensional “ignorant, evil enemies of mankind”. Thanks for putting forth a more enlightened viewpoint.
+10 🙂
Yes, Geir is one of our more mellow fellows. 🙂
The Discussion Policy has that universal respect built into it.
The discussion policywas designed to handle that adversarial attitude so there could be a respectful discussion.
That Discussion Policy was quite successful on Marty’s blog.
To me, it is not just Scientologists, but everyone, who needs to be regarded with deep respect because everyone is the manifestation of that wonderful awareness and light, which is hard to fathom.
The one does not exclude the other
From Wikipedia, “The aim of zazen is just sitting, that is, suspending all judgmental thinking and letting words, ideas, images and thoughts pass by without getting involved in them.”
This is one of the prerequisites for enlightenment (letting the inner awareness control the mind). The other two are described below.
From Patanjali Yoga Sutra 2:01 to 2;04:
Yoga is a system to remove afflictions and inconsistencies and achieve the ideal state of one’s nature. The technology consists of strict discipline, devotion to study of self, and letting inner awareness control the mind. The key afflictions are I-feeling, attachment, aversion and clinging to life. The source of these afflictions is the ignorance of reality. These afflictions could be dormant, attenuated, intermittent or fully manifested.
It is interesting to note that “obsession to survive” is an aberration per Yoga.
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From Wikipedia, “The correct mental attitude for zazen according to Dōgen is one of effortless non-striving, this is because for Dōgen, enlightenment is already always present.”
Well, the basic nature is always there just like pure H2O is always there in dirty water. Enlightenment is achieved only when all that dirt is removed.
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A moment of clarity is just that – a moment of clarity. This is what katageek is referring to as enlightenment.
But the final enlightenment per Patanjali Yoga Sutra involves removal of all afflictions, inconsistencies and samskaras.
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I have no idea what Katageek means by “non-emotional Dharma”.
My understanding of Dharma is as follows:
Dharma is the basic nature of something. For example, the dharma of light is awareness.
The fundamentals of this universe rest on awareness and motion. Motion is the outward form of awareness. so I refer to this phenomenon as “awareness-motion.”
Everything in this universe has evolved from “awareness-motion.” Evolution is “awareness-motion” becoming more and more complex.
Awareness is the spiritual component. Motion is the physical component. They are knitted into each other as “awareness-motion.”
Thus, spirit and matter are not separate.
A physical object is simply complex motion. Dharma is the complex awareness knitted into that object expressed as its basic properties.
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An atom is made up of “awareness-motion.”
There are no separate particles in an atom. It is just layers of motion.
These layers of motion break off into differnt particles when the atom is bombarded.
The awareness (dharma) component of the atom is expressed by the Periodic Table.
“On enlightenment, it seems that the person breaks through the confinement of a narrow self and starts to view the reality from the viewpoint of reality itself.”
A good scientist like Einstein always takes the viewpoint of “Reality” (or the viewpoint of the Universe) in looking at the physical universe. But he is looking at only part of the Universe.
When one is able to maintain the viewpoint of the Universe toward the Universe of ‘awareness-motion” and not just toward the motion aspect of the universe (physical universe), then one is truly enlightened.
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Vin, look. There is no stable “Happy Ever After Enlightenment.”
Show me a monk who “has it”, and even if he has amazing brain scans, he will be a quivering mess of humanity like the rest of us after just a few weeks of torture, water boarding and sleep depravation.
For enlightenment to be real, it has to be … REAL… Something anyone can do. Anytime. Anywhere. Something that isn’t “pie in the sky” or “just beyond reach.” But a reliable transcendence.
I love those traditions that say, “It’s right here if I can just see it.”
THUD! … THUD! …THUD! …
ME: “Don’t SEE it! JUST FUCKING DO IT ALREADY. Touch eternity and be eternity by dropping body and mind in zazen and then return to this dream from enlightenment when you are done. Sheesh. People make it so fucking complicated. The reason why people aren’t enlightened is because they think it is cooler than it is.”
This is the cruz of Dogen’s koan. “If we are all already Buddhas why practice?”
His answer, “Because the practice and decision is enlightenment itself.”
But that doesn’t sell well in book stores.
Kata, there are many recorded cases of monks who have been able to withstand intense pain – one I read about literally burned off his pinky finger by calmly holding it to a candle flame (in homage to Buddha, I believe). Apparently, it is possible to transcend pain.
However, your idea of enlightenment is pretty much what Eckhart Tolle says about it:
He’s very close to the Soto Zen View Marildi, but he never equates enlightenment with Zazen or practice.
Again, this is something one must resolve herself. I hope Vin proves me wrong. THAT would be awesome.
Because then, I could watch an entire season of Duck Dynasty and NOT suffer. Something impossible for me now.
But regarding the monks and pain, I see this as monks adapting to a specific environment they control. Once someone ELSE controls another’s environment, enlightenment becomes a lot less possible IMHO.
“Oh, you can burn your finger? Great, here’s a freezer after we spray you with water …”
This is why the notion of “Zazen is enlightenment” makes sense to me. Eventually every day, I can control enough of my environment in almost every case to JUST SIT. And I also think other postures and practices can produce similar effects. It can also be “Karate is enlightenment.” or “Piano is enlightenment.”
Regardless, it’s the decision and practice and ACTION of dropping body, mind, and goals and being an enlightened being right then – perfect in imperfection.
Because THAT notion is almost always available. It is a stable enlightenment.
Sure, I could be in a gimp box like in “Pulp Fiction.” How am I going to sit Zazen with a sore bottom and a broken spirit in a tiny box that won’t let me move?
I don’t. But I CAN touch my fingers.
“Just touch. Nothing special.”
“Touch like your hair is on fire!’
“Precise finger touching.”
It will be zazen enough. But I would STILL really want out of that fucking box.
And THAT would be gimp-box enlightenment. And the more I practice, the stronger it becomes.
I’m tough but …
A gimp box would damage my psyche forever. But once out, I KNOW I could even for a moment … transcend it.
Only to return to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder with compassion, courage and quivering.
My take is that I don’t have to be whole to be enlightened and THAT is an enlightenment I can love.
“Just sit. Nothing special.”
Broken people CAN be enlightened. Otherwise, what is an enlightenment FOR?
Takes attention and fortitude (firmness of spirit) for me, and is sound advice Kata, thanks.
“Just sit. Nothing special.” 🙂
As Eckhart Tolle said in Marildi’s video, all meditation practices EVENTUALLY drop the technique itself. Soto Zen just starts with no technique at all (other than the posture).
This was called “Farmer Zen” in Japan and Renzai Zen was called “Samurai Zen.” And the term “Farmer Zen” was meant to be derogatory and was invented by the Renzai Folks.
But I like the phrase “Farmer Zen.” Its zen for the gal who puts in a 14 hour day in the field, cooks dinner, deals with a batshit teenager and then has to go to bed.
I think that many people over practice shikantaza AKA “Just Precisely Sitting.” It is SO POWERFUL that it doesn’t need long stints to be effective. For me, it’s more about “how often” rather than “how long.” i do it every day. Sometimes it is two five minute stints morning and evening. Sometimes it’s half hour stints. Sometimes I go to a sitting group in Fort Worth for an hour and a half. And sometimes, I go on retreats.
My take? Frequency beats longevity every time. It’s benefits are cumulative. But humanity is never lost. Here is a blog from my favorite zen teacher, Brad Warner, who never fails to knock the sparkle off of the “Peaceful Zen Teacher Mythos.”
Currently, Brad is in Europe. He is REALLY popular there. More than in the US actually. Funny, he’s also a hit IN PRISONS.
http://hardcorezen.info/carved-into-the-universe/3134
Kata, I wholeheartedly agree with you on lengths of time for sitting and how it can become less at time. A meditation group I belonged to years ago, recommended ‘highly’, 2 and a half hours a day, mind you, on one’s honor and to be lacto vegetarian. I like how you feel about the duration, since I had stopped altogether. Now I may start again as “your take” seems right down my alley. I’ll review the link given, thank you. 🙂
Kata, which book on Samurai Zen would you suggest, if any? I see there are several.
For Soto Zen AKA “Farmer Zen” the books “Hardcore Zen” and “To Meet the Real Dragon” by Gudo Nishijima and Brad Warner, respectfully, are a nice start.
Nishijima’s Dharma Heir is Brad and he writes mostly in my favorite artistic vernacular of “snarky funny cute” while hitting home with compassion and insight.
Brad’s first book “Hardcore Zen” and is excellent for getting a great understanding of the Heart Sutra and zazen practice and is the first place I would go. It’s in most Barnes and Nobles Booksellers and also on iTunes as an audiobook. I like the audio book version a (you can tell he did the recording in his kitchen!) It’s written for 20 somethings because that’s what the publisher wanted. After this book, Brad got to drop the Punkish vernacular a bit.
This video is the core notion of Soto Zen’s notion of reality as described by Nishijima with Brad interviewing him. There are similarities to the viewpoint found in “The Factors.” All of Brad and Nishijima’s videos are worth watching and actually, you may want to start with those before you get the books.
Brad and Nishijima both deny being fully enlightened. They teach that we all are enlightened already and the practice of Zazen is enlightenment itself – an enlightenment anyone can attain and deepen.
And reincarnation isn’t “real” in this version of Buddhism because if we are REALITY ITSELF then timelines are merely a subset of THAT reality. So why not just drop the subsets and be reality?
And when that happens, there is no need for a reincarnation model at all.
Another humorously deep post by The Kata. What an art!
But you underestimated Eckhart Tolle where you wrote:
“He’s very close to the Soto Zen View Marildi, but he never equates enlightenment with Zazen or practice.”
Marildi, you nailed it Eckhard gets Soto Zen!
“There are thousands of eyes on Geir’s blog…”
I knew dat. 😉
“There are thousands of eyes on Geir’s blog…”
Is that a play on the poem? Nice!
Here’s a quote for you:
“I have lived with several zen masters – all of them cats.” –Eckhart Tolle
Geir, in return for your respect for scientologists, past or present, I have to give you due credit for a number of your posts and talks (like the one at “Flag down 2014”) which indicate you have risen above the “collective ego.” The meaning of that is explained in the following excerpt from an article about grievances:
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“There are many people who are always waiting for the next thing to react against, to feel annoyed or disturbed about, and it never takes long before they find it. ‘This is an outrage,’ they say. ‘How dare you …’ ‘I resent this.’ They are addicted to upset and anger as others are to a drug. Through reacting against this or that they assert and strengthen their feeling of self.
“A long-standing resentment is called a grievance.
“To carry grievances is to be in a permanent state of ‘against,’ and that is why grievances constitute a significant part of many people’s ego. Collective grievances can survive for centuries in the psyche of a nation or a tribe and fuel a never-ending cycle of violence.
“A grievance is a strong negative emotion connected to an event in the sometimes distant past that is being kept alive by compulsive thinking, by retelling the story in the head or out loud of ‘what someone did to me’ or ‘what someone did to us.’
“A grievance will also contaminate other areas of your life. For example, while you think about and feel your grievance, its negative emotional energy can distort your perception of an event that is happening in the present or influence the way in which you speak or behave toward someone in the present. One strong grievance is enough to contaminate large areas of your life and keep you in the grip of the ego.
“It requires honesty to see whether you still harbor grievances, whether there is someone in your life you have not completely forgiven, an ‘enemy.’ If you do, become aware of the grievance both on the level of thought as well as emotion, that is to say, be aware of the thoughts that keep it alive, and feel the emotion that is the body’s response to those thoughts. Don’t try to let go of the grievance. Trying to let go, to forgive, does not work. Forgiveness happens naturally when you see that it has no purpose other than to strengthen a false sense of self, to keep the ego in place. The seeing is freeing.
“Jesus’ teaching to ‘Forgive your enemies’ is essentially about the undoing of one of the main egoic structures in the human mind.
The past has no power to stop you from being present now. Only your grievance about the past can do that. And what is a grievance? The baggage of old thought and emotion.”
http://www.theworkbook.org/egoic.htm
I like this Marildi! 🙂
Great, Dee!
Just to note, it isn’t that a person is supposed to allow everything to be and never protest anything or say no to anybody. I’m sure you got that, but this short vid explains the difference quite well in case anyone was wondering about it:
Yep Marildi, it has been good to listen to him again. Thanks. 🙂
Vin
You say above that you have no idea what non-emotional
Dharma is. Listen to the above vid. What is your take after
listening to it?
Katageek, thank you for the links. 🙂