An epiphany of sorts on help

I have had an interesting discovery about myself recently; Despite the fact that I have received countless hours of help in the form of Scientology counseling since 1984, I have grown increasingly hesitant to receive help from others proportional to how much I have been helping other people in my life.

The more help I give and the more I listen to others with issues at hand and the more I give advice, the less easy it becomes to accept others helping me. It’s like my mission in life has become so focused on helping others that it feels awkward to have that flow reversed.

The support I offer is mostly very practical and very direct – both in business and for interesting individuals. It ranges from coaching individuals to success, coaching teams to perform at their best and organizations to break important barriers. I am very lucky to be able to do this together with Brendan in our new company. But as my focus on helping others sharpens, my acceptance for others helping me seems to dull. This is something I have to work on – to be as open to others supporting me as I am eager to support others.

I don’t have any specific reason for sharing this, and I’m not particularly trying to rally any discussion. But it does feel nice to be able to let others in on my inner thoughts.

184 thoughts on “An epiphany of sorts on help

  1. “But it does feel nice to be able to let others in on my inner thoughts”. I think this is the essence of your entire blog, Geir. Your “inner thoughts” shared by you made me to discover ideas, attitudes, facts, opinions and issues that made me to think twice in some moments and sharpened my mental acuity. I took all of it as a friendly contribution, I felt you HELPED and ADVICED me, even I never requested it. The same with you. There are moments in life when you receive help and advices even if you don’t notice about. Never feel yourself guilty or selfish, never think that you put a Wall between you and others. Your family, colleagues, friends, your whole human environment…we are there.

    1. A YES to what you write Dragos and a YES to Geir ! Putting out our “bubbles with our inner thoughts and emotions in them” can be a huge relief. Kind of real choice point –
      one can choose free to still use the contents of the bubbles as “old games” or look to
      the source of the bubbles and create “new games” from there. And it’s also joy to see that the contents of some bubbles are so similar that when we realize this, we laugh!

  2. Oh wow. I just finished writing an email to a friend and then saw your post. This was one thing I wrote:

    “This brings to mind something I learned recently which I found to be a very workable ‘technique’ for me, which is to look squarely at my thoughts and inner feelings and communicate them directly and honestly as best I can, bearing in mind the “pc” in front of me, of course. (Wow, how many times do we have to learn again what communication can do?)”

    How’s that for coincidence? 🙂

    1. p.s. In my amazement at the coincidence of the last line of your post I forgot I wanted to comment on the personal insight and say that’s really cool!

  3. Geir,
    There isn’t any way that your flow of help towards others doesn’t effect you in a very positive ways. My experience, and I’ve worked with thousands of very capable people over the years getting them better, is that every single person, every single interaction gave me as much as they got from it. I really enjoy your blogs because we come from some similar places.

    I’ve always been happy to receive help, as well as give it. Perhaps it’s because of coming from a strong family very oriented to helping in every flow, and part of it, is my experiences in the USMC being part of flight crew. I was an Aerial Navigator, and I flew with very senior officers from the beginning, and when we flew together we were a tight knit group, even stronger than a family, and I was able to help as well as be helped. And my best experiences were in Software companies we started from scratch, or being a small part of a large company, that was very proficient in what we did.

    I”m one of the most experienced auditor and C/s’s I know and I have a very strong support team – my wife is more capable than I, and I have lot’s of friends that are equally competent. I can and have gotten everyone in session to help them just by talking to them from LRH on and I do that every day. And I’m very capable of accepting help whenever it’s offered.

    And I get help from many people every day, including my family, my wife’s family, and my many friends all over the world.

    I’m not sure why you think you are not getting or can’t get helped. Perhaps it’s a matter of phrasing.

    the better path is always more love, more communication, more assistance, more backing, more respect, more admiration.

    You are an infinite source, you can have an unlimited amount of admiration and assistance.

    It’s fine to receive positive effects like help, that’s the real top of the scale – can accept any and all effect, or not as you choose.

    And you are very powerful being with a lot of choice.

    And you can fully choose to not be helped, but It would be your choice. I believe the better choice is to enjoy the assistance of your friends, and soon to be friends. But it’s all up to you.

    A couple of quotes from earlier:

    “It had long since come to my attention that people of accomplishment rarely sat back and let things happen to them. They went out and happened to things.”

    “Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.”

    I hope that helps (pun intended).

    ML,
    Doc

    1. Hi Doc,

      Wow, so many good posts on this thread. This was the line of yours that I thought really stood out:

      “The better path is always more love, more communication, more assistance, more backing, more respect, more admiration.”

      Well said! Seems to me, that would have to be the best place to come from.

      Btw, do you have an email address that you give out publicly or a website where you can be contacted? My sister (the one coming with us to the magic universe party you’re giving :)) wanted me to ask you, for possible future reference. She loves your posts.

        1. Great, Maria! I’ll let Doc answer himself, of course, but I’m sure you’re invited. You can get all the specifics on the “Consistency” thread, in case you haven’t read the posts of his there.

      1. For those who might want it – My email address is docwhittaker@hotmail.com
        I’m always happy to answer comm, sometimes it takes longer than others.
        I just got out of the hospital after a month, so I’m still in recovery mode. I had a strep infection in my left leg, followed by a respiratory infection, and then my heart condition ( I had atrial fibrillation)
        turbocharged everything. It kind of overloaded my kidneys, and I was in pretty bad shape for a while physically.

        I felt great. But my body did not at all. It took them a while to get it all back to battery.
        I was on five different IV meds through 3 different IV lines for about three weeks, and in ICU being closely monitored.

        Made a lot of friends with the nurses.

        Anyways I’m back. Party is still on after you go to sleep on September 27th.

        Doc

        1. Hi Doc,

          That’s really something about the recent illness and awesome that you are recovering.

          This is a blunt question that I wouldn’t ask everybody but you being who you are, I will: How would you relate what occurred with you to the PTS/SP data and tech?

          And thanks for the email address and for the confirmation about the party. 🙂

          1. That’s an interesting question. I am very interested to read Doc’s and others answers. What about you Marildi? How do you relate your own experiences with body illness to PTS/SP tech?

            1. Chris, I have personally found that most illnesses I’ve had have occurred after an upset or enturbulation with someone. Otherwise, I could usually spot that it was a matter of false PTSness of some kind, most often out-ethics in care of the body and once or twice after bad auditing – but just until the auditing was corrected and then I got well again very fast.

          2. marildi,
            Not PTSness. I overran a win, and crashed. For OT’s overrunning and not acknowledging a win can have severe consequences. I was really, really doing well, then got into some sleep issues, and then the body crashed. I had finished the level I was doing, and didn’t realize it.
            Pulled in something from probably two or three levels from now, and wasn’t really ready to deal with it.
            Everything is really just here and now, and it’s a matter of existing postulates and consideration, and stable datum, those have some real power to them, and need to be approached correctly to restore ones control and responsibility over. It’s not negative gain, it’s taking back control over what you are actually doing all the time, you just aren’t aware of it. It’s working on the KRC=P
            or even theta or source level. It’s important to be able to duplicate exactly what is going on, and all of that is covered by the 6th ACC. Ron talked about this as theta machinery, which needed to be handled on level 7 or 8 (this discussion was during the 60’s on a lecture).

            You are clear, OT, clear OT, and there is still theta machinery to be handled. Like MEST and how you deal with MEST and the other 2 universes, your own and the universe of others.

            Once in a while when you are really winning it’s best to get away from all auditing, and just live life for a while. That’s what I should have done.

            Ethics – reason and contemplation of optimum survival.

            Should have just enjoyed the win.

            But….
            I didn’t – I’ve fixed all that now. I’m going to enjoy the win for a while.

            I’m getting both of my guitars fixed, a couple of stuck keys on my piano fixed, and I’m going to play some jazz again for a few years.

            I feel like being creative with live music again.

            Plus I’m working on getting a story outline on the book you suggested.

            I’m thinking about calling it Excalibur, writing it as a Sci Fi book, and tying it back to when the sword was first created for Loki, loaned out to Arthur, and later used by Richard the 1st (Lion hearted). Moving back and forth through time, and using also the theme of a long term love affair with ones soul mate, and others. Loki was the doctor/artist/engineer of the colonizing ship that colonized this planet long ago, the first ones, Odin and that level are the kids that came later and had a power struggle with the first settlers. Excalibur is really just a tool of Loki’s.
            Plus this planet was moved after it was just missed by a planet cracker bomb in a war long ago, and we moved the planet to here then. The force of the blast didn’t destroy the planet but it did harm it. And here we are today.

            Doc

            1. DOC: “Pulled in something from probably two or three levels from now, and wasn’t really ready to deal with it.
              Everything is really just here and now, and it’s a matter of existing postulates and consideration, and stable datum, those have some real power to them, and need to be approached correctly to restore ones control and responsibility over. It’s not negative gain, it’s taking back control over what you are actually doing all the time, you just aren’t aware of it. “
              DOC, you have blamed one item for your illnesses, which is “unacknowledged win” than you admit the cause was something different..
              I never heard or read so much crap about OT crashing, over running the win? Over running a win and not acknowledged one can become, sick as you were? LETS MAKE SOMETHING CLEAR HERE: others might buy what you have written but I won’t, not for a second and you know why? Because I have finished with ALL THE OT 7-8 Material and never ever run into anything so outrages as you have written of. And one’s BANK IS NOT different from one person to the other, since bank is a bank period, So you can’t claim you have a special case!!
              If you over run: When you realize you over run than you acknowledge but you never ever become ill, that is spreading falls data, that kind of irresponsibility scares the average person off the Bridge…
              You are giving misleading information and those who do not know any better, have not reached that level and they will swallow that hogwash and it that is not OK. In other words you are spreading negative: BLACK PR.. about OT material.
              IF YOU PULLED IN SOMETHING THAN THAT “”ITEM” IS NOT EXISTING 2-3 LEVELS away any more BUT IT IS THERE IN THE PRESENT TIME AND ONE HANDLES THAT BECAUSE IT IS THERE NOW!!
              IF YOU SEE ANYTHING “NOW”, Experiencing “NOW” THAT IT IS THERE “IN THE NOW” AND ONE CAN HANDLED THAT NOW!! It is there because you experiencing it..
              How wrong you got that OT7-8 material is truly wretched … YOU HAVE A HUGE MU…. And you are spreading that MU on the international communication lines.
              AND WHY? HERE THIS: Simply because you have on MU, You have all the tools available as a solo auditor to handle any item no matter what they are and if you have not handled those items “”” YOUR CASE”” at the moment that you simply let the PC down: sitting in the mass.. Now that is what I call one lousy auditing.
              Just because you left the PC sitting in on unhandled items which is “your case” at the present time, YES that can cause illnesses galore and that is not because of on the unacknowledged win, that is bull dodo..
              You do double talking, you said you ‘’’over run on win” than item not handled”.
              It is dirty shame to be so irresponsible as you are to blame sickness, breaking up the body malfunctioning-failing of the body-machinery because a WIN WAS NOT ACKNOWLEDGED!!!! Jesus, you are lucky for you not being here if you were I would wring your neck…
              Nothing wrong with admitting confessing stating: yes I have been ill, yes I have pulled in postulates from the past, since that is a fact and was not handled, I could not handle it.
              That would be simply stating the fact, and that would be OK. That is responsible act.
              OT 7-8 are not Gods, or infallible in every way, OT7-8 at that level just starting out on the Path of Self-discovery and have arrived to the Native State.
              Doc, I don’t care what you do in your life that is your creation your havingness, but very much I care when I read about BLACK PR: about OT material what affect can cause such that is not OK.
              When auditing well done it is always ends with VGI’s cognition and do not end up in hospital.

            2. E. I’m sure Doc will explain if what he was saying wasn’t clear or whatever, but I just wanted to say that I appreciated you standing up for what you yourself have observed and for strongly defending something you know is more than worth defending. Soul sister. 😉

            3. Marildi,
              the DOC has already explained it very well… Now here is my bit my 2 cent.

              PTS, I know its meaning very well, but let’s look at it a little closer.
              If one are responsible for one’s own creation no matter what comes into one’s life-universe than if ones becomes sick, become ill, than one are sick –ill because of our own creation being stimulated by that, so we have become the victim of what we have created our self and have it to happen to us by our very own agreements.
              That goes for any kind of reaction that means all reaction one has no matter what shape or form it comes at one: this include DM…and all his actions[ reading about it and get keyed in? how funny!], or Obama the Dalai Lama, or have reaction to Baskin- Robins ice cream… or reaction to eggs, having a roaring climax, laughing at some good joke, roasting marshmallows and burning you finger, wanting to kill yourself because you just lost your fortune or listening to a beautiful tune.. or enjoying the pain in your butt…. I don’t care….
              Let’s just look at it in the simple form: Are we or are we not the cause of what is happens to us. If not that we are victims-not responsible in any way whatever happens to us.
              If we are the creator of our universe than we are the cause therefore we are responsible what shit we sit in…
              And no matter how one dresses up these facts and Marildi you can say ;Oh but it has to be broken down to understandable form for the lower level understanding.
              Marildi, those to many broken down forms by LRH and his gang made the technology tooooo complicated and too bad for the lower levels because causes nothing but confusion.
              I believe those toooooo many explanations are the waffling: beating around the bush and supplying excuses galore… gad……
              Have it or you don’t have it but it has to be one, cant be both…

            4. E, LRH tried to match the A-R-C of others in order to actually “reach” them. If we, any of us, don’t do that, we create an ARC break – the bane of our existence. And I KNOW you agree with that. 😉

              But it’s an interesting point you make about toooo much explanation. There has to be a happy medium, I suppose.

            5. Marildi,
              You have no idea how many people have written to me asking about the OT 7-8 NOT’s material, they were asking wanting to know if it is true, that it can cause bad effects death etc… So much bullshit, all my heirs are standing up, and I am protesting to such a foul misrepresentation !!! It scares people away doing those levels.
              One has created ones very own universe, and only what you have created went into agreement with you consider at any time :you can become on effect of your creation-consider, Oh, so much confusion exists because LRH had loads of them and his own fears effected his thinking… and his monumental ego to look important has caused more confusion almost buried his brilliant work.
              You have no idea just how much ARCB’x the good Doc has caused be saying that by passing a win put him in the hospital for a month.???? Any idea.. really? That was the most outrages statement I ever heard…
              Now think, would you care to go into session knowing that if you make a little mistake and pass pass one win you be sick as a dog? Would you do still go into session and do it and not worrying OH my god what IF?
              If the Doc has a ARCbx he should bloody well hadle it, i will not tip-toe around the tulips.. that do not work..

            6. Hi Eliz. My understanding is that the OT 7 (Solo NOTs) that is being delivered by the CoS has gross out-tech to the point of being Black Dianetics. That’s the reason for all the cancer. So you should tell people who write to you that, yes, that is true when the level is done in the CoS, and that they should absolutely stay away from it. They can go to an independent C/S who can be trusted to deliver standard tech – in that case it will not cause bad effects.

              Also, I wouldn’t be so certain that you know all about LRH because if you don’t know it all, then you yourself may be spreading false data about him. Consider the possibility that you may not have all the facts. This is true even for Maria and others who have studied reams of what went on but still say they aren’t sure what is true and what isn’t. Did you see those recent comments stating that?

              With Doc, I got that the overrun was only part of the picture. There were other factors that combined with the overrun to cause him to get so sick. By overrunning he keyed in some things that were too high for his case level to handle (kind of like someone not Clear trying to do OT levels – it wouldn’t work). But again, let’s give him a chance to respond himself.

            7. I stand corrected on LRH that I do not know him not this life but I sure know him from earlier, our paths has crossed.
              Please believe, anyone who writes to me, they do because they trust me… and believe that i will not let them walk into something bad.
              I read over and over what he said… You can defend him any way you like… and you have… and you have said I cause ARCb’s.. But you have not pointed out what grave mistake he has made… why is that? Your admiration of what he right is blinding your usual excellent ability to assess correctly.

            8. Why not just say what you’re talking about? You haven’t held back anything so far.

            9. You know what, you all ready made me wrong and you protected the doc and no matter what I say you still making me wrong. by all means: in your reality I am wrong, have it your way.. but I my reality i am write about the doc. so i will live you with that. people who read the posting can make up their own mind.. one way or the other…

            10. Elizabeth, this is a discussion and it’s the same rules for everybody. When you make a comment, other posters who don’t see it the way you do are going to ask questions, or point out what they think isn’t accurate, or give the data they think you are missing. You have to be prepared to answer the questions and respond to the data given that contradicts yours – if you don’t accept what the other person is saying you need to give your reasons why. Otherwise, it just looks like you have no good answer. And you can’t just not respond to their point by saying “You’re making me wrong” – that has nothing to do with it. Also, it’s not a matter of defending your friends – like I say, it’s a discussion. Besides, if you’re going to dish it out you need to be able to take it too. And no one dishes it out more harshly than you do.

            11. Marildi, I have said over and over, i expressed my reality on PT;s-ness, on solo auditing… I have written about everythink I can think of…so dont hit me with the rules and regulations again. I alway answer all questions directed at me…
              I have no clue what you really want.

            12. You said I haven’t pointed out Doc’s grave mistake. Then I asked you what it was and you refused to answer. Instead, you basically backed out of the discussion by crying “you all ready made me wrong and you protected the doc and no matter what I say you still making me wrong”. Nothing to do with any of that . I simply disagreed with some things you said. That’s what you should be addressing. If you think I said something that wasn’t right, give your reason. And if I have a question about what you meant, why not clarify it.

            13. Look at the comment above where you said “you have not pointed out the doc’s mistake…” Then look under that and you’ll see that I asked you what it was but never got an answer – only you telling me to “Sort out those item one by one”.

              Anyway, tomorrow is another day.

            14. I believe I have given my all, I have writen about the spiritual universe, I have given information not one person could give or given that includes LRH… i have posted dozens and dozens of cognitions, yes, and I also taken planty shit and you know it…

            15. That’s the spirit. Back to the original thing.

              I think I already answered but I’ll say it again. I believe the person who is ill is either PTS or has some sort of false PTSness.

              (I may have to end off here until tomorrow. See you then. :))

            16. I too end it…. PTS is PTS no matter what, fauls PTS-ness? you make me lough… hot air… good night. and you will not drag me back to this again..

            17. Marildi ”’And no one dishes it out more harshly than you do.”” and no one writes about spiritual universe experiences better than I do… there are very few who writes on spiritual experiences in this blog period and I never read any write ups, or cognitions.
              I have contributed a lot to this blog and not much was acknowledged.
              Marildi I have given my email adress here and my home phone number. and expressed many times ask questions please. so dont tell me I dont play by the rules..

            18. Marildi, “By overrunning he keyed in some things that were too high for his case level to handle ”
              Marildi that is nonsence…. He is a auditor, he knows the tech… there are no special incidents in ones universe which is not created by the owner of that universe… You just dont get it do you?

            19. Marildi you really believe in levels do you? long as you do, than you will never able to comprehand that bank is a bank and item is a item and there is no such a think that auditing question can separate items from level to level, auditing question is addressing the bank period.

            20. Marildi I hope I have reached the DOC….. I sure hope so… if he has a ARCB than that is his own cause and not a victime of what i have said… lets just sort out the victim and cause bit… Care to go on that tread my dear? Lets have some fun..

            21. E, I am 100% sure that Doc isn’t being a victim. And I don’t say that because of admiring his “havingness” – you should know me better by now! What I admire is the truth I feel he speaks.

              Actually, he said something very much the same as you have said (and you also quoted it in a comment of yours). The only difference is that he points out as well that one’s own postulates and considerations have to be “approached correctly” – which is standard tech. Here’s the quote again:

              “Everything is really just here and now, and it’s a matter of existing postulates and consideration, and stable datum, those have some real power to them, and need to be approached correctly to restore ones control and responsibility over.”

            22. Now I remember a lecture called “Briefing of Review Auditors” where LRH talked about overrun having the mechanics of suppression and PTSness. And there’s also the bulletin about false PTSness, one reason for which is bad auditing. Another reason for false PTSness is out-ethics and you expressed that too where you said, “Ethics – reason and contemplation of optimum survival. Should have just enjoyed the win.” Not allowing the pc to take a break and have his win is one of the suppressive alterations of tech going on right now in the CoS, which you probably know about.

              As for your disagreement with LRH about it not being a matter of negative gain, I imagine that you are like me and consider that his expression of it in that way is simply part of his overall constructs of the mind – i.e. not the territory but the map only. Your description seemed to me more like the mechanics of the actual territory, perhaps less easily understood by many people, though. I never went for stuff like “the file clerk” and loved it when I got to 8-80 and 8-8008.

              Nice to hear about your music plans. And the book outline! Please keep us posted on updates to that. 🙂

              Btw, do you know the reference for KRC=P?

        2. Hi Doc, That’s some tough luck when the body is crapping out but I am happy to get your good news that you are back home and on the mend.

          RSVP: Please add Chris’ name to the guest list . . .

          1. Nope. I love everybody. And they could tell. Got a lot of good TLC, and really had as good a time as one can have, being very very sick, and shot full of meds. Part of the time I wasn’t sure what was real and what was just my imagination. Which they really thought was funny.
            After all how many people do they run into like me. I’m pretty rare.
            I especially liked one nurse, fell in love, and felt a very strong sense of heartache later – I missed her very deeply. Like love Cocaine (a quote from the movie “Notting Hill” with Hugh Grant, and Julia Roberts). It was all in good fun.
            I was very happy my long time attending was there. I’ve had the same attending every time I’ve been in the hospital, and he was my primary doctor one year, so I really know and trust him.
            And he told me I was very very sick, but they would get me through it, and they did.
            The main problem was just too much strain on the kidneys dealing with all the stuff the meds were helping the body kill off, so I was getting into Kidney issues, but it all came out all right.

            It was interesting seeing how the nurses reactions went from very deep concern about my well being at first, to a gradual happiness that I was coming out of it and doing better. To a joy when I was moved to a different area for the last week of recovery.

            I guess at the worst my body looked very bad.

            I’m going to send them some roses to thank them all.

  4. I had a similar realization two weeks ago, when I hosted my friend in my flat over the weekend, giving him Faster EFT sessions to reverse his bad condition in life. At one point he offered his help with my chronically unpleasant condition of my right ankle by giving me the touch assist. Although receiving such a help would normally have been OK, I felt it as a distraction from my helpful efforts over the weekend, so I declined the offer.

    Then I tried to imagine what receiving Faster EFT from him would be like and I found myself unwilling to give him control over my mental state. I would go for help from a guru in Faster EFT, yes, but I couldn’t trust this well-intentioned beginner. And even if he got well-trained, I would have a problem open myself to him.

    So yes, this unwillingness to receive help from those who have been helped by one seems to be something to handle.

  5. I see it as invalidation of self (self in a broader sense — not necessarily 1st Dynamic). You can trust that the ‘other’ can be right too, and to be helped -as essentially you help yourself- unless you think otherwise.

  6. @Geir: I find it simple to say anything to you. This includes feedback in situations where I felt you didn’t perform well or where i felt you were unclear in communicatiyron. Several times I’ve been impressed with your attitude to improve as a friend, colleague and person even though I struggle to speak the words necessary to express my feelings.

    bren

    ps. viva A-Circle! I hear people are liking us on facebook 😉

      1. In Romanian language we have a word: “Baby who doesn’t cry will never receive milk” 🙂

      2. Geir, In my reality, giving and receiving is a simple act.
        Example: If I am helpless no longer can provide for my-self, not being able, since I am no longer have that ability to ” produce by postulate”, since I have lost that ability in the downward spiral to conjure something what I need into existence in my space for my-self to continue that game, than I would be turning to others who still have abilities -skills to create -produce = mock-up wealth and therefore have abundance, in fact so much that they can become generous and give their excesses surplus of their own creation: product away..
        To admit weakness, of not being able to ask for help, what is? Worry perhaps that one seems weak, helpless, powerless, not capable, not accomplished enough, not clever enough, or too proud, have large self-image, feels above all, too embarrassed, would feel humiliated asking, worry what others might think….etc… there could be few hundred different reasons one do not want to open up and ask when something is lacking in their universe.
        But again maybe nothing is needed at the first place, nothing at all…

        1. Good post, E. You covered so many possible reasons, including that maybe nothing is needed. Like! 🙂

      3. Geir,
        “to initiate or ask for help, that is where I find my weakness”
        To me it’s first being aware of what there is, in present time. Like in the example, me being aware of being hungry. Fully aware. Then, speaking it aloud (to my workmates, who couldn’t give me food). But the next minute a boy came to me and gave me some chocolate. Seems speaking out is also part of the picture. The mechanism behind it could be – we are both
        no-thing and thing at the same time. That is we are aware and what we are aware of are two sides of the same thing. Both must come to “realization” in a given instant. And then “others” can respond. We seem to be linked at source and created level also.
        And also, one can be in a state of “fully aware”, “no wanting” “seeing/having” it all. No bubbles to put over the head. Fine, then one doesn’t have anything to “speak aloud”.
        Both above are my realities here. I wonder what yours is?

  7. Geir – If we agree that to help others is an outflow and receiving help is an inflow – then I would put forth the concept that your willingness to give help is a direct result of the fact that your universe, your influence, your “personal space” etc is toward expansion. I would conclude that expansion is a higher state than contraction and thus all beings would inherently desire to be able to give help. I do not see this as a flaw on your part. Not really wanting help from others is not the same as unable to receive help. The inflow of help is not necessarily blocked or inhibited – just not as desireable to you personally. Your thoughts?

  8. Many years ago, I consulted people on an expert basis. I found that I only willing to accept help on matters unrelated to my area of expertise, either in terms of knowledge or in terms of credibility and reputation. As I saw it, people were coming to me for my strengths and knowledge so it was critical to avoid any actions that revealed weakness or deficiency. I had seen first-hand that most people share information about their conversations and interactions with others in their lives, and rarely consider the impact of their cute, funny or helpful stories of helping others and the problems others face. A humorous or interesting story can have the effect of making a laughingstock or reducing credibility or respect, depending on how that story is relayed. So, to no small degree, this was all about personal PR.

    Over time, I developed friendships and working relationships with people who were discreet and faithful in keeping my confidences and I spoke ONLY to them about the things I needed help with. I did not have any problem accepting help in areas that I had no expertise so long as I was certain my confidences would be kept and my information/situation would not become the subject of chit chat over coffee, chit chat that could spread uncomplimentary viewpoints about me, however innocently.

    So perhaps it depends on the area of help and how much trust one has in the helper. Maybe its not a weakness in some instances, maybe it is prudence.

    These days my work is not expert oriented so it really doesn’t matter any more. I find myself much more receptive to help, provided it really is helpful! I still seldom ask for help. I don’t know if this a weakness or not, but it certainly can be a drawback if I really need help and find myself reluctant to go and get help.

    1. Well, I really don’t mind putting any of my weaknesses out there – right on this blog for anyone to see. It is more a matter of not bothering people I am supposed to help (everyone) with the burden of helping me.

      1. Yes, I see that.

        BTW it’s great to have you back on the blog! Did all go well on the problem you were handling when you took a hiatus?

        1. Not really, the new owners of FreeCode are breaking laws and acting very strange. But it’s in the hands of my excellent lawyer for now, and it probably will end up in the courts for an embarrassing trial for them. So, I’m focusing on A-circle, family, my blog and you guys, my telescope and some interesting stuff soon to be revealed.

      2. Here is something I encountered on a holistic course, regarding relationships. It goes like this: There can be a Doctor/Patient relationship, which requires that the patient take a subservient role in the relationship — i.e. the Doctor knows all and is going to fix the patient. Compared to a facilitator role which is a partnership, and assumes that the one being helped is is the real agent of change in the relationship, with helper assisting to draw out the power of change inherent in the one being helped. Its a very different type of relationship.

        Their point was the the fatal flaw in the helper/helped relationship scenario was that the helped assumes a status of inability and that can actually aggravate /create that state of inability instead of strengthening the helped. In other words, helpers need people to help!

        p.s. I am not suggesting that any of this applies to you in particular, but it is info I’ve gathered along the way that might help to bring the area into sharper focus.

      3. Geir,
        The creative sparkle, that is reaching out and putting something there is suppressed in many people. So I “bother” people “I am supposed to help” by speaking aloud. It happens in
        many cases that I get that “help” not from an “expert” in that field but from a very different
        “awareness level”. Like with you, in Tansania. How is it, that Einstein quote?
        This blog is a live example of this……

    2. Good post, Maria. On that first point, I too have observed that “altitude” has a high importance if you want to help, due to the simple fact that others’ considerations about that alone can determine whether they will be helped or not.

      1. Ah Marildi, you found the perfect word: altitude. Yes, it was all about altitude.

        I read up on spontaneous healing phenomena a few weeks ago, and there are extraordinary studies on the impact of belief on healing. A truly bizarre case involved a Doctor who gave his patient some pills. The Doctor told the patient that the medication had a 99% effective rate. The patient recovered while on the medication. A few weeks later, the Doctor found out that the medical supply company had shipped placebos in error. It was the Doctor’s altitude, and the consequent belief of the patient that had triggered the patient’s own natural healing ability. Wild!

        1. OMG, yes, “belief” – or, more basically, considerations – is where it’s at. (As we keep saying. :))

  9. Here’s another take for you, Geir. It’s a games condition, “knowing or unknowing” to have no-effect on self / effect on others. And I do see you up there at Games. 🙂

    But in contrast with that is the point on the Code of Honor that says “Be your own adviser, keep your own counsel, and select your own decisions.”

    (Note how we all love to help and you’ve pushed our help buttons!)

  10. Over the years, I’ve observed how seldom musicians will dance. When I ask about it, the typical musician doesn’t have a very convincing story of why he doesn’t like to dance, but usually offers some sort of version of, “I see what people look like when they dance.” This answer doesn’t add up when one then observes the pleasure most musicians seem to experience when their music drives people out of their seats and onto the dance floor.

    I believe the answer to the non-dancing musician puzzle is the fact that musicians are sources or causers of music. To dance, you pretty much have to be the willing effect of music.

    Similarly, if one is a professional help source, it might be a bit more difficult to be the receipt point of help. I think Maria also expressed this in a different way quite well.

  11. Maybe there is an exchange factor here. Its not just the flow of help – there may be a monetary aspect. If you are charging a client, let’s say, and then they offer to help you, then wouldn’t there be an out-exchange unless they charged you as well? If there is no money exchange, then perhaps a bartering system might even the flows out. You would think the exchange of help might be even, but maybe it isn’t enough, I don’t know :). I get the feeling at times, that a stop on a particular flow has to do with some guilt or something along those lines. But if not, then following the thought line to see what the decision was made on a stop, might answer any question on it. After all, we all have the answers – we just need the right questions – lol!! Lyn

    1. 🙂

      I am in fact moving away from the ideas on exchange as expressed by LRH. I don’t believe in the concept as a law that needs abiding.

      1. right you are on that 🙂 in fact on the long run there is no inflow or outflow… those are just thoughts, believes and very much huge load of agreements..
        There is only continual creation exist= energy is like a river and part of that creation and that energy is called inflow the other part but it out flow since it is a creation and humans love to label things: named outflow and all those existing considerations created believed in and used ; just for the sake of the game…
        PS in fact energy as the creation-experience flows nowhere…. But the river bit is used for understanding and nothing more.
        Since only NOW exist, there is no future or past so if you go by that why would you need help for?

      2. Geir, I think LRH’s ideas on exchange were expressed mainly in the context of organizations, which right there would imply structure and agreements. Or it referred to agreements between individuals. I think that’s the key to those principles of exchange – agreements. And even in that type of context, LRH included “exchange in abundance” – which, in an org setting or the like would be about as close as you could get to the idea in that blog post of yours, “Transcend exchange”. Because anything a staff member might originate would still be seen within the context of the org and would seen as the org’s exchange. Senior Policy, after all, was “Service”.

        Also – outside of a structured context with agreements, I recall his talking about intangible things like a baby’s smile being his form of exchange. So again, it might be a matter of “following the spirit rather than the letter of the law” as regards exchange. I’ll grant, however, that like the drastic misapplication of the Optimal Solution that came about, LRH’s original idea of exchange was probably misapplied too. Too much literal interpretation!

        1. I dunno Marildi. “Free Service Equals Free Fall” is emphatic and backed up by many SO Advices, issues and telex communications of orders surrounding spending SO money.

            1. I believe the quote above from the “SERVICE” PL is the correct context for the policy about “free service”. And I also think it relates to help in general. The point about contribution that isn’t balanced may even relate to your epiphany and validate your questioning . Here’s another excerpt from that PL:

              “CONTRIBUTISM is a philosophy in itself. You find it in The Factors. You also find it would apply in economics. One CONTRIBUTES. One is CONTRIBUTED TO. By others CONTRIBUTING TO others who then contribute back, one is also benefited.”

            2. Chris and Geir, I still don’t see that anybody is getting free service. For example, between Google and its advertisers there is an exchange going (obviously), and although it appears that Google users get the free benefit of the information Google provides, in the slightly larger picture it isn’t “free” for them either. Besides contributing to Google’s stats with their support, and thus helping Google to have higher rates for advertising, many of the readers are going to be sold something by the advertisers – whose prices, by the laws of economics, will be proportionately increased by the advertising they do in Google. Thus, readers who buy from them are indirectly paying for their Google service.

              Even those readers who don’t buy from the Google advertisers but go elsewhere will be affected in terms of the changes in demand that take place in the respective field. And I really doubt there is any field or category in the marketplace that doesn’t have its advertisers on Google. The overall economy is affected in any case, for good or bad depending on what Google accepts to be promoted by their search engine, i.e. we get what we support.

              I don’t really know much at all about economics but something like the above is the way I understand this part of the excerpt I quoted from “SERVICE” HCO PL:

              “You find it would apply in economics. One CONTRIBUTES. One is CONTRIBUTED TO. By others CONTRIBUTING TO others who then contribute back, one is also benefited.”

            3. Linux and other free software is indeed free service. Wikipedia just the same. Many other examples exist.

            4. Okay, but even with those, it seems to me that the originators do get an exchange in terms of the bigger picture. There is even a return for you with your blog, which you gave as another example of free service in your earlier comment. Yes, it’s free, and you give a lot with no interest in return, and yet you do get a return as you yourself have noted. (And my experience has been that the more I “contribute” the more I get out of it too. :))

              All that is more or less “mystical”, but in the context of Scientology orgs, I go back to the LRH quote that shows how giving away service results in a disservice to the recipient, more destructively so than the org, IMO.

            5. Yes, I have to agree. 🙂

              On that ARC triangle debate we had, I also (finally! LOL) ended up agreeing with you that I had presented a tautology, and I realized that the ARC triangle is not always in effect due to considerations that supersede the mechanics of the triangle. I had gone astray from considering the ARC triangle mechanics in and of themselves (as three aspects of the same phenomenon and thus cannot be other than linked), and generalized that the triangle (or a specific triangel) and those mechanics were always in effect.

              Now I’ve done the same kind of thing with this discussion on exchange. I got away from my original point about free service – in the context of an org – and why that statement of “free service / free fall” is correct in that context. I started looking at the ultimate context of “what goes around comes around”, which isn’t applicable to the context you were referring to and does become meaningless in that context. (Hope I haven’t committed another logical fallacy!)

            6. All is fine.

              Now – back to the free service from an org. I have in my own businesses given Lots of free service without any direct or indirect aim for exchange. LRH’s policies on exchange seems outdated to me.

            7. Is it possible that the very personal products delivered in Scientology make it an organization that can’t really be compared with other types of organizations, as regards the very personal effect its products have on people and their own considerations about that?

              Or maybe I should learn my lesson and stay directly on the subject. Do you disagree with the point LRH made in that PL:

              “Thus you can expect that when CONTRIBUTION is not balanced to some degree, trouble and upset occurs.”

              He does say “to some degree”. And I know that I personally feel better if I feel I have contributed in return, at least to some degree. Don’t you?

          1. There was HCO PL as well, called “Free Service, Free Fall”. I don’t have that PL handy, but I do have an OEC Vol 0 with HCO PL “SERVICE” 27 May 71 – the PL I had in mind (I see now I had that one mixed up with “SENIOR POLICY” HCO PL , which is simply “We always deliver what we promise.”)

            Here’s an excerpt from “SERVICE”, which gives the basis for “free service, free fall” – i.e. free service would be doing a disservice to both your org and the public.
            ——————————————————————–
            CONTRIBUTISM is a philosophy in itself. You find it in The Factors. You find it would apply in economics. One CONTRIBUTES. One is CONTRIBUTED TO. By others CONTRIBUTING TO others who then contribute back, one is also benefited.

            When contribution is cut or not allowed, denied or withheld, one gets the phenomenon of ARC break in the form of cut C – Communication. (Where A is Affinity and R is Reality.)

            ARC breaks precede harmful intentional acts.

            Thus you can expect that when CONTRIBUTION is not balanced to some degree, trouble and upset occurs.
            —————————————————————

            The above would also be a good reference for allowing SO members to be contributed to (helped), rather than what we experienced. 😉

  12. “Help” as a word was routinely meter-checked on the staff for “reads” when I was in the sea organization at the CST in Crestline, CA. This was done in order to ferret out any who had “charge” on this as an item. The handling for it began with demotion to a “lower organization” and now I think I understand why.

    Consistent attention on “help” on every flow requires a heavy-and-solid agreement that help is both necessary and possible. Sea Org members are routinely coached that they are thetans who can do anything forever and that outflow (of help) is holier and more sane than inflow which is unnecessary. Thus compulsive and obsessive outflow is admired while any inflow is shunned and looked down upon.

    1. Hi, Chris!

      Well, your experience of being routinely meter-checked is something I don’t remember happening at any of the four S.O. orgs where I was on staff. If it did, it must have been pretty rare because I don’t recall it at all. Maybe in your org it was someone’s “thing”.

      But I did experience something like what you said here: “Thus compulsive and obsessive outflow is admired while any inflow is shunned and looked down upon.”

      That seems to be basically the same idea as what I have worded as the dynamics being out of balance for an SO member. It wasn’t always that way, though. Even during the years that I was in, I witnessed it deteriorate dramatically, to the point where the 3rd dynamic (i.e. the SO group) took over as pretty much the only dynamic that mattered.

      Recently, on another thread I quoted an excerpt from Marty’s book “What is Wrong with Scientology?”, that relates to this, which you may not have seen (since you’ve been such as stranger to these parts 😦 :)). He describes the perversion by the CoS of the original idea of the optimal solution, greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics. And it wasn’t just for S.O. members (although it was no doubt the most worst for them). The change occurred generally, for all staff and public alike. Here you go:
      —————————–
      “…If one gives any one dynamic more value or influence than any other, the solution arrived at will be something other than what is optimum for the greatest number of dynamics. It more often than not would result in a solution that harmed more dynamics than it assisted.

      “Almost from the outset, the Scientology Inc. culture took for granted that since Scientology itself was the provider of the ultimate solution to survival across all dynamics, the organization – or group – that represents and forwards Scientology is more important than any other dynamic Thus, from the mid-‘60s to the present, the ‘3” [standing for 3rd dynamic] on the keyboard of the calculator of optimum solutions has been permanently held down (Scientology Inc. representing the third dynamic). This has skewed every optimum-solution calculation attempted by Scientologists since.”
      —————————–

      1. When located at PAC Base in Los Angeles, “LRH Archives,” (Gerry Armstrong’s alma mater and located in the building on the north side of Bridge Publications and east side of AOLA) was made very secret and used to launder another layer of secrecy for the really secret Church of Spiritual Technology (CST). Even at CST, the staff were divided into those “who knew” and “those who really knew.” No one, including my own commanding officer knew of the bonding between CST and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and though I knew the names of the corporate directors, I was too new, green, and not privy to the significances of who these people were and what their relationships meant to the ownership of Scientology.

        Thus, non-true believers were diligently rooted out and routed out.

  13. Help can be a heavy and solid subject. Many significances can be attached to “help” in the same manner as an American legislature attaches “pork” (disrelated windfalls) as they seek to pass their pork-laden legal bills into law. Thus outflowing help can be as simple as “Let me get that door for you m’am,” while inflowing help may need to be scrutinized for intent.

    Healthy people can feel that accepting help is not worth the trouble while someone in more mental disarray can feel that they cannot mobilize without help. The whole subject can become complicated and overdone.

  14. Geir – I think the simplest thing to do is to look at your own thought on it, as far as receiving help vs. giving it. There’s no right or wrong. Its just your thought. Plus, there’s no time frame here, meaning that who says that one has to give and then receive right away or within a month, or even a year. Maybe you give for another 10 years without receiving much.

    I do believe in taking turns and having some form of self-balance, whatever that is. In terms of “harmony” or perhaps even beauty there are flows or energies being produced and extended.

    Exchange to me is harmony – even if its a low harmony turning into a chaos of some sort. There is still exchange among the more dense energies. To me creating some form of agreement is also like creating harmony. Breaking the beauty and harmony can sometimes lead to lower emotional areas, depending on the situation of how it happens. I was leaning more towards this type of meaning rather than just a plain ol’ Scn exchange and parroting some ethics handbook.

    Also, for years it was difficult for me to be flexible regarding “help” areas. I was a fanatic in Scn, although I never did go all the way up the bridge. I left Scn for years. Everything I had burned up in a fire (all Scn materials) and I didn’t replace them for a long time. I found that life went on anyways. So, I got into other things and learned how to talk mainstream again. But what’s funny is that, several years ago, I started reading Scn again and looking into it online. I even got some auditing. And ya know – I can totally take a new look at some of the things that I’ve read before and see if they are workable or not. I can do it freely – without charge and without getting caught up in the opinions or any propaganda towards “the only game in town” as they used to say. I can pretty well accept Scn tools and other tools as well.

    Are you at that point, Geir? Or, do you throw things out because they are Scn?

    1. identitiesinsync….. 🙂 You know… Geir is at a point when finally made up his mind about scientology and auditing mostly about auditing, he has decided secretly [ this is all hush-hush of course he only let know few of his closest friends] what he will do: on next Groundhog Day he will toss up a coin if it tail he won’t but if it the coin will land head up: he will go for to co-audit Book ONE..
      PS;; he really needs all the help he can get.. poor soul 🙂

      1. LOL!

        Maybe we shouldn’t laugh, though. Book One might be Miscavige’s next money-making scheme – to have everybody get dozens of intensives of Book One, including all the OT 8’s. 😀

        1. Marildi my Drear Friend it only could help those who do it…. just becouse that action action was put front, the start of the game— auditing… that do not means it has less power than any other auditing the persons can receive…… The difference is, when it being done how is the persons confront… at first one confront is very shallow…. later that same question well, could send the being out of this universe…
          No I am not knocking any auditing since I understand the values, but with Geir what I have written was meat as fun… I do not know Geir, and I do not know his Universe outside of what I read here and that is not enought to know him, only to know some of his reality…

          there are many layers to take off… Over the years, I went back to the same subject over and over again and each time I found enough to have one Hell of a Cognition . I re done the Self analysis list again after OT 7 and it was in new unit of time the questions had different meanigs-reality in the NOW and wins galore rolled my way in form of cognition…
          OT 7 or OT 8 is not the end of the road, just the beginning….

          1. Hi Eliz. I was basing my joke on what I learned in my auditor training, on the NED Auditor course in particular. LRH found that not all engrams need to be run in order for the Clear to “no longer have HIS OWN [my caps] reactive mind”, which is the definition of Clear – that is, clear on the first dynamic only. In fact, he found that continuing to audit Dianetics on a Clear only served to solidify the remaining bank, and when he discovered that he forbid it The good thing is that after going Clear the pc is able to move on to other aspects of case that Dianetics type auditing doesn’t address and doesn’t touch.

            But I tend to think you are 100% right about the pc’s confront increasing and with many processes there might be much further gain to be had by re-doing them. I remember Dennis’ comment one time that he would like to re-do his Grades and for the same reason you said, that he would be much less shallow in running them. I know that Grades get only a Provisional Cert, and my understanding of the reason for that is that they do no erasing but only give releases – i.e. major key-outs. Self Analysis processes would be similar, I think.

            Btw, when you called me your “Drear Friend” I hope the typo was for “Dear” and not “Dreary”. 😀

            1. By now you know I only could mean “dear” and also know that to me there is no such a thing is BAD person, not one is bad, no matter what they are doing… that is my true reality….cant change that one 🙂 i guess i said it wrong way to Dennis, his confront on the grades would be on DEEPER LEVEL..
              and yes grades just key out thing… they just give a small taste what the real ability will be when attained. Just a lick from ones favorite ice cream not the whole bowl of it,,, mine is coffee and rum punch but here in canada i never ever seen rum punch.
              As a student of high art of pastry baking [the very best: bread buns, etc… were not on the menue to learn] in Hungary waaaaaay back there was a section in the course when we learned making ice cream. Started with the basic… brake and separate on egg….

            2. Yum!!!

              And I like your description of the Grades: “Just a lick from ones favorite ice cream not the whole bowl of it…” Or we could say “A lick and a promise”. That’s how my Mom used to describe how we sometimes did the housework ;).

            3. just imagine, the finest vanilla ice cream mixed with good quality rum and chopped fruit: different variety of melons, cherry, raisins soaked in that rum in fact that is how they were preserved in rum and now added to that creamy rich ice cream that was Vanilla Rum punch

            4. NO MORE! I don’t want to think about it. You know I’m on that cleanse! 😦 😀

            5. Have to go to the store now – vegetables, fruit, brown rice, natural meats…no ice cream. Fattening isn’t my worry, though, so when I get done with this health program I’m going out to get some Haagen Dazs! (next best thing to your Hungarian recipe)

              Meanwhile – the mock-up… 🙂

    2. “I do believe in taking turns and having some form of self-balance, whatever that is. In terms of “harmony” or perhaps even beauty there are flows or energies being produced and extended.”

      Thanks for articulating that! I had already thought about communication being basic to this subject of help, and specifically about what LRH says in Dianetics 55 regarding the bad effects of an imbalance of outflow and inflow, too heavy either way. And now that you mention energies – that has to be the basic on it. Communication is all about energies and help would have to come under communication in the broad sense. Geir is smart to question this area and see just what’s out, if anything.

      Good post in general too!

      Btw, check out Geir’s post of about a month ago, “My Current Stance on Scientology”. It’s a great summary and gives links to other posts of his that address specific areas of Scn. https://isene.me/2012/07/10/my-current-stance-on-scientology/#comments

  15. Ohhhh, and here I’m doing my best to put things in more a metaphysical aspect and I’m being plagued by people thinking its all Scn – lol!! If I can’t experience it at least for myself, doesn’t matter who or where info comes from. I’m only suggestion to Geir a few things. Some from Scn and some from other things and hopefully a lil bit o’ common sense (if there is such a thing). Otherwise, its all speculation because only Geir’s hairdresser knows for sure :). Geir has the answer, he’s just putting it out for others to talk about so his blog has something in it. Aww, I did it again – too blunt. I’ll have to learn tact some day – lol!

    1. 🙂 Lyn, Get yourself a nice heavy implant, very powerful is needed when one is in need of tact… I know a little shop it has very good reputation, also one can by there which is their speciality have long lists on different “personalities”, they have a huge stock on those, the best in the Galaxy, and they list contains, peasants, kings, general, soldiers, nuns, monks, judges, courtesans, just name a few and any art form one can imagine, of course learned persons, females and males of any color size one wants to be and do, and listen to this: they even sell, under the table of course so don’t tell anyone because I would not want to cause the owners problem with the intergalactic police. They sell invisible personality, when you down load it puff, no one can see you, but here is the trick you have not disappeared but you will emanate thoughts to others that they can’t see you, you are not there, you don’t exist… neat program…. But of course expansive too.. tell them I sent you, I will get 20 percent off of my next item I buy ..hehehe 🙂
      🙂 Now here is the direction: when you live Earth you turn……

          1. Nope not lost, not here anyways. Earlier today I saw you asked if I was interested in your view on PTS/SP Tech and tried to answer from my phone, “Always” but it seems it didn’t go through unless it truly got through to you by psychic and so you truly did wait until you got my answer that I was interested in what you had to say before you said it. Anyways, that’s what I like to think.

            My own thoughts? About like yours. I think it has its usefulness when a person’s thinking is more reactionary and less usefulness as a person rises in responsibility.

            1. right you are….Chris, I did get your comm. But I figured I will wait to write it…
              By now the universe, the Bank looks very simple to me. really It is not worth the trouble to dress is up and to say… My mother did it or DM did it, that is the reason I am like this… that is the victim thing..
              Or one can be a cause and say: no matter what happens to me I cause it, that is responsibility taking care, excepting responsiblity for ones own case…
              One gets stimulated for 10 million reason and to blame it on others or somethinglike doc did, “I over run a win”. that is blaming his condition on the TECH… No way… that cant happen…
              Long as one here on this planet one gets stimulated… there is no other way..
              One is only stimulated, can be stimulated by ones own believes-reality, agreements- consideration.
              And i dont give a fig how LRH was dressing up the basic reality: what name, explanations he has given
              blowing up some concepts to make it look important had caused lots of confusio for many, just look around you- in all the blogs .

  16. Lyn, sometimes when I reply to a post and express myself in Scientology terms it’s because I’m most familiar with those particular constructs and also because I figure that most everybody here on Geir’s blog understand those as well. I didn’t think that you were “thinking it’s all Scn”. It was more like I got your conceptual understanding of something that happens to also be expressed in Scn. In other words, even if you did get it from Scn you have made it your own.

    Btw, “only Geir’s hairdresser knows for sure” could be expressed as “What’s true for you is what’s true for you”. Or as: his reality is just one of the three universes. (I’m kidding! I too will have to learn tact some day. :))

    1. Marildi after you end your present time program you are on, you might consider visiting that little shop your self, and indulge your self by buying something, but need tact? eh, forgot that, get something unique,…..

      1. Well but since I’m playing the game of “personalities” I figure that tact will help me be a winner, since “tact” is more or less a rule of the game. Just a rule, though, and sometimes rules can be broken. You just have to know when to hold ’em and when to fold ’em. That’s another rule I like to follow. 😉

        But I’m enjoying your humor lately! (Btw, you yourself seem to have no lack of personality :D)

        1. Marildi, some of the items don’t sell and so the surplus is sold off in bulk: by the pound, since it was on sale, cheap and I bought a cart load of personalities’. Hehehe…

            1. But I have forgotten to mention there is a guy an guard at the door: inside and he looks normal to any eyes and he has hands 2 of them attached to loooong arms, but hehehe he has two more invisible!!!! So hang on to your valuables and other sensitive belongings…

  17. Valkov darling pussy cat, I been thinking about you.. and wondered how were you…
    It is horrid , yes!!! and my dea, my spelling will not improve… it is so bad that it is not funny, I just can’t get hold of a good program which I could down load into my space [implant]. The reason I can’t get one because it is highly demanded item and that little shop just can’t get enough of it. But I have hopes for the future since I am on their list, maybe I get it when their next order will arrive, by the way I bought my “sense of humor” there too. You like? it was a sale item… 🙂

  18. Elizabeth and Miraldi – what a great sense of amusement here. Finally I found people who love to jump from one mine field to another (or mind field). And when I grow up I wanna be the best implanter there is (oops, deja vu). All these identities to play with – what more excitement could there be.

    1. trust me you have pottered around with it or in it, likely both, after all that shop is well known and if you would not have bought a few hundred personality you would not be sitting around here on Earth.. but i am putting this old body to its nest…and my-self I will do some gallivanting after all there is no door to the universe and i have on passport… ta-ta

  19. To Geir – It just dawned on me. How can you possibly be helping others and not helping yourself at the same time in one way or another. Even if you aren’t getting “direct” help from those you help, there is still some sort of helping yourself. Maybe its a lot more subtle and not as exciting as getting help used to be from others. I don’t know about you, but I learn quite a bit from helping others, at times :).

    1. here is one more view point.
      I have taken another look what could be the reason one is not asking for help…
      It seems to me there were many incidents in our past, in our track when we have asked for help, but in most cases-incidents help was given un-asked therefore that help was forced on us and naturally that help did not fit into out space-universe and that forced help was altering our game and they have back-fired on us and caused hurt upset destruction ruin damage in the big way, changes were made by that good intentionally given advise-help which was not pleasant. That help given so freely and being forced on us not necessarily was ‘’good intention” in the first place, since who know what underlying motives that giver had?
      And there are different side to help even the ENFORCED KIND….hehehe… ‘’do what I tell you, you little shit or you will get the back of my hand!’’
      On our track is littered with enforced “HELP” items-incidents, and given to us by those who were stronger than us, in fact we went into agreement, yes they were stronger, better than us.. so their way was good and ours was not good enough to count and to stand as our own creation.
      But that is the game..

    2. Help is an interesting crap-shoot. The outflowing of help doesn’t always result in anyone being helped. I believe help is a particular output of one person to a particular input of another person and the resulting iteration can result in helping; however, the iteration is random so the roulette ball may land on black or red. The resulting iteration seems not to be under the control of the helper though we like to think so. Or is it?

      1. that is good, i like it… So I put out something see if that though helps any one…good.. that is like me putting my cognitions in this blog…. few things it is wow, and the rest thinks dodo…. hehe, crap-shoot..

      2. Chris 🙂 – Help, IMO, is a “taught” item. When it isn’t taught by someone who understands this concept, it can become twisted and used inappropriately. Help does not have to be a guessing game. But its like sex. Has lots of variables and people have lots of different ideas about it. But then I don’t think either one (help or sex) would be very much fun if they didn’t have variables :).

    3. It’s not that I don’t help myself by helping others or otherwise – it’s rather the act of asking others for help that doesn’t quite jive.

      1. Hi Geir – Maybe you don’t have to ask directly out loud – it just comes when you intend it. Could be the intention is a lighter space which is more powerful. Maybe its kept simple and when you do want someone to contribute you involve them by asking questions or giving ideas, etc. Kind of a “style” to it, so to speak. You have someone you are now working with (Brendan). Did you ask for help from that person? I’ll bet you didn’t (I could be wrong). My guess is that you guys got together and just started talking, creating more and more commonalities and the next thing you know voila, you’ve got a business going.

        I think we all have our ways of getting help. Some ask out loud and others don’t. But the results from our own styles is what counts, IMO. 🙂

          1. Well Geir – there ya go. You receive help anyways and don’t even have to outright ask. You’re a natural. Also, perhaps help sneaks up on you when you’re not looking. A natural flow occurs. In Scn, as you know, we were subjected to the idea of “flows”. This isn’t just Scn, though – its pretty much noticeable in any type of energy based subject. So, why would one have to be “equal” on all the flows that happen?

            For instance, when I tell some people that I’m a rather shy individual, they seem surprised. But what I didn’t realize until recently is that it wasn’t in every way. I’m shy when it comes to first meeting strangers, unless someone else is there to break the ice. If someone comes up to me first, I’m not shy. I’m not shy watching others and I’m certainly not shy with myself.

            Why do all the flows have to be the same? Yes, they could be similar and all freed up, etc., but my point is that sometimes, different flows are different for whatever the reasons. I don’t actually see anything wrong with it – it just is, until it isn’t :).

          2. Geir,
            In “expansion” “help” can come as “negative” – by confronting, as-is-ing it you actually handle that part of the YOU (ONE-NESS) which you haven’t yet been aware of. Life PUTS as a mirror into our faces that we don’t dare/bother to ask others to help us with. It seems to me that it is love and fear that “pulls” things in……until just love remains…..you can say a full CRA ( I read it somewhere that Ron changed the letters ARC to CRA – makes
            sense to me as with more and more communication one gets more and more reality and
            finally it’s all affinity – that is love……full circle….).

  20. Hi Elizabeth 🙂 Many people who are into Law of Attraction claim that in order to get what you want – you have to be clear about it, define it well and maybe even image it exactly how you want it. Many a time under stress, or danger, threat, etc., help is called for. Its not well thought out, its an emergency. Eventually, help does come. But the tone level it was asked for may no longer fit what the person really wants. So, one could very well have a forced help as this is the combination of a tone level and an intention to get help. Its not exactly what was asked for because how it was intended to begin with may not have fit all the other factors involved.

    Beings play complex games. Want or ask for something and the next thing one gets is several old decisions piling up into a nice big ball of part of what was wanted and the rest from unfinished business. Could be a mess.

    If I bought identities from that lovely store you mentioned, I certainly hope they are orderly about it and I can look through either books or videos before I decide. What a mess to just having identities laying all over the place. But then perhaps they have someone who is an expert and can suggest some interesting combinations.

    1. hi there!!! you have explained my reality very well thank you..
      here is a bit more on those lovely stores;
      Nahhh. Those store was like now here a Party store, you picked up identity,-personality just for the Hell of it… Just imagine… one day every one could see you as a general, strutting down on the street, next day you could be selling your beautiful body on the same street just for laugh, the next item –personality you want to play the regal queen, and get all the trimming going with that personality… And the games went on and on. It was like having being in a masquerade ball, dressed up for it..
      Those implant-personalities contained all the behaviors, thinking, acting, knowing every detail of it.
      Here is an example: personality of a great philosopher, that implant contained all the material, one could down load it and bingo: one could impress all the friends now with a rare knowledge and talk above others head… or buy a drama actor and do the great: to be or not to be bit…
      The problem was that not one of the previous personality was erased before the new was down loaded..
      And brother, problems galore has risen, mixed so badly those personalities become that the being no longer has known who she/he was, since different stimulations brought out different personalities while one was still in different personality: do that ring a bell?
      The selling was outlawed but it was too late the harm has been done.
      But earlier the Invisible Personality was forbidden to be sold and bought because of its effects and of course people could just vanish-not to be seen ever again and when it was used in a criminal manner on some beings who has not agreed to have it were downloaded into their space-universe and of course those beings were never seen or being heard of again.
      Crime was born..
      Yet that Item remained the hottest selling item on the black market.
      I bought one myself… hehehe… I am gone, eat my dust you lot!!!! 🙂

      1. Elizabeth – love how you phrase things. Never mind “cause and effect” – give me the label “Entertainment” any day. A person could learn a thing or two this way – lol!!

        1. My dear my phrases are backward, i will blaime that being born backward; back end first [ mother suffered a lot and I have duplicated went into agreement with ] and also born in Hungary, my english is ….is… and I dont have much tech under my belt… but enough to achieve Native state..[ no bank that is] Not bad for a backward person… may be that was the reasons I have acieved whatever? 🙂
          but i will blaime me for of being one relentless persistent determined stubborn indomitable solo auditor, [has to be that] and I never left the PC sitting in the dodo.

    2. You know, i like the idea of postulates are like bouncing balls, you never know where those idiotic postulates from the past will pup up bounce around and spoil the new whatever… 🙂

  21. Gier, I seem to always get into debates with you and Chris both, where I emphasize the earlier writings and basic theories, and the two of you look more at the way things actually transpired. Marty’s latest blog post acknowledged both viewpoints really well. The whole post is very worth reading, but this is the first part:
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    “In 1950 L. Ron Hubbard burst onto the scene tackling the attainment of the ends of Eastern spiritualism with the practicality mindset of Western materialism. He developed two related subjects toward that end, Dianetics, and its outgrowth, Scientology. Within two to three years he had described in practical English terms having seen the universal truths as outlined in the Vedas and in the Tao Te Ch’ing. He also described modern exercises that he discovered and developed to bring others to that experience. He spent the rest of his life attempting to undercut the route so that virtually anyone from any station in life or of whatever educational background could traverse it. In that effort to reach and effect all, matters eventually became complicated. An insidious parallel to helping and saving all peoples of earth evolved throughout Scientology writings. That is, the stress became not so much to make Scientology accessible to everybody as much as to make Scientology mandatory for everyone. This approach led to a type of dual personality for the subject. On the one hand it intended to release an individual from the restraints of life and to restore freedom of choice. On the other hand, it usurped freedom of choice and imposed restraints in the attempt to get every person there.

    “Control and restraint themes developed throughout Scientology writings…”
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

    Then he goes on to describe the “control and restraint themes”. I have to admit it fully supported yours and Chris’ viewpoints. 🙂

    1. After reading so much, through the years and hearing things from different people, there were a couple of people who mentioned that LRH was an “avid” reader. If he not only was an avid reader, but traveled, as well, then why wouldn’t he be collecting different ideas and putting them together. Some claim that they know who he gathered his info from. Its interesting that some of LRH’s ideas come from ancient symbols, such as triangles. That he put triads together to form the different connections between concepts. That these triad formulas equaled something e.g. ARC = U and KRC = P and there are probably other ones of which I’m not familiar with.

      His “stint” into what was known as the OTO, wasn’t just OTO – it was some of the top X-Freemasons that were the base of OTO. I found online somewhere, where he had gotten a hold of some “sacred” text from these people and took many ideas from there. It would not surprise me if LRH had studied some sort of “witch-like” craft or “mage” most likely. I’m sure during his experimental stage he probably tried several things. The triangular concept might very well come from here, since some of Freemason symbols are from Egyptian beliefs.

      It has always been amusing to me that he of all people would call other people squirrels who would change his precious processes or style of auditing. He certainly changed other ways and methods to suit his.

      Understand, that I’m not bitching and moaning about LRH. I’m simply looking at the actions. Learning that there were many people who contributed to the ideas of Scn and that LRH didn’t do it all, by a long shot. He managed to certainly become the figure head of it all by claiming that everything in Scn that was ever created belonged to Scn. Made him look like source of it all, of which he was not, unless you believe that approving methods or ideas of others makes it your own legally. Apparently, it did, but not really morally speaking.

      Understanding more and more of where LRH got his info from, one can then look into that info themselves, if they wish. I have done a little bit of that and found Scn a little easier to understand in certain areas and at the same time, become more fulfilled in understanding why certain things work the way they do – such as touch assists for example. A little thing, but with no understanding of why it works and what can be done with it, it becomes robotic and inflexible.

      The idea of help is probably a bigger study than what LRH did on it and whoever created the processes attached to it, but that’s my opinion :). But, at least he did do something on it to help separate it out to take a better look at it :).

      1. Hi Lyn. Thanks for your reply. 🙂

        Actually. LRH did give credit to the “many people who contributed to the ideas of Scn”. I remember in the older editions of SOS, for example, in the front pages of the book he stated that he owed a debt to 50,000 years of thinking men and listed a couple dozen of them in particular. That page was later removed from the book, under Miscavige’s rule, and the idea that no one but LRH knew anything about anything started to be promoted. LRH stated in KSW 1 that only individuals, not groups, came up with original ideas. That in itself may have been right or wrong, but it definitely wasn’t saying that he was the only individual that every came up with anything – with the sole exception of a workable method to handle the bank.

        The TECH was the only thing LRH claimed as his own, which he had developed as a practical application of the philosophy of Scn. And that philosophy itself wasn’t just a collection of others’ ideas into some sort of hodgepodge. It did consist in part of others’ ideas, some of which he refined (such as the cycle-of-action, which in FOT he states was from ancient books). But it also included his own discoveries and insights – the Axioms and Factors, the Tone Scale and the dozens of other scales, to name just a few. His discoveries and those of others were all combined into not just a patchwork but a whole, coherent system. That itself was a big part of his genius, really.

        My impression of the problem he had with squirrels wasn’t the point that they changed Scn tech but that they thought and claimed it was indeed Scientology, and that was what he felt put Scn itself in danger. He used the term (at least originally) in the context of his attempt to ensure that people, especially those in Scn organizations, didn’t do something else than what had been proven workable – while calling it Scientology.

        BTW, you said KRC = P. Is the P for power? And do you know the reference? That would be good to know! 🙂

        1. Hi Mirildi – The P does stand for “power”. Its somewhere in the Red Vols and I didn’t keep the reference HCOP date for it. I’d have to look it up again. If you put the two triangles overlapping, its a very good concept – understanding and power.

          LRH did give credit in the early days but then started taking a lot more credit in the late 60’s. He would take other people’s ideas, as far as tech goes and incorporate it, approve it, etc. and then claim it for himself. DM didn’t start that, LRH did. Alan Walter who worked with LRH and for him doing many missions, said that LRH got the study tech data from a particular teacher, of which I can’t recall the name. He then turned it into his own and added other things. This is what LRH did. He’d take other people’s ideas, and then say it was his because he would revise it somewhat. He did that with the first two TR’s. Those first two TR’s were originally designed from Zen monks that had been attending some of his seminars in the early days (50’s) and LRH’s son, LRH, Jr. had put that together. I’ll bet there’s quite a list of people that were around in the late 50’s, 60’s and 70’s who contributed far more than what LRH gave credit.

          As far as squirrels go, EST was called a squirrel group back in the 70’s and it never said it was Scn, although it took Scn and just changed it a bit here and there.

          IMO, LRH’s genius was his ability to research, be charismatic and learn how to make people believe in a strong purpose. He certainly was brilliant in many areas. Apparently, however, I found online, however, that apparently, LRH did not necessarily tell a whole truth about his credentials and background and instead felt the need to be more credentialed and authoritarian than necessary. But in his day these areas were very important. People judged others by what schooling they had and what experience. People still do, but its been loosened up a bit since then.

          1. Hi every one, I need your help! 🙂

            Since I have come out of the closet that means: looked up scientology on the internet and lo and behold I found [since my disappearance in 82 ]] the world of scientology has crumbled and there are as many groups as individuals who care to write about their experiences.
            Wonderful, more the merrier and I have a blog of my own Wow that is the cat’s meow!! Fame and fortune to be had by all the unknown, now that is a hot pistol.. What has the wold coming to when on uneducated persons can open up and communicate to the universe.???? bad bad news….control is out of hand from the educated

            That is not the topic here: but my interest need of vital information.
            In these past two years I have read immense amount about LRH of course to me about 90 percent was new information and I admit some is very interesting especially that idiot reg. from LA told me that at age of five LRH could see through walls….
            Hehehe, now yes or no, that can be true, it could have been passible and why not? but anyone knowing about it now that is not likely.

            So here I go: I would like to have complete information about the great man for my own records and include his glorious life in my memoirs and in there I would like this earth shaking truth included.
            So information I seek if anyone knows this please call with me with speed and let me know, it is urgent!!
            You see, this old thing is on her last leg and there is not much life in her and before she kicks the bucket, she wants to make sure all information is spot-on about our hero.

            Was LRH wearing boxer or jockey shorts or those European types, those bikini things, or was he just hanging in there?

            Hehehe. the devil made me do it.. 🙂

            1. LOL! LRH was very much into au naturel. My guess is “hanging in there”. 😀

              (Can’t linger but I’ll be back later to enlighten both you girls. Hahaha…)

            2. MARILDI you are guessing, you are assuming? 🙂 we cant deal with important information and write in my Great Book of Knowledge not having the facts… oh.. by assumptions…. we must have solid hard facts !!!!!

            3. AHA!!!! very good example you have just given, “assumption again!!!” 🙂 what you laughing at is your own mock-up you own pictures….hehehe fun this is ..

              On the serious note, you think we can dig up, by now we really have to dig deep and dig up…. Somebody how you call it, who could give facts on the matter because, had hand on experience?

            4. Elizabeth, get a grip. Geir is going to ban us.

              And no cracks about “grip”! (You’re really bringing out the worst in me, you know. :D)

            5. Marildi.. grip ???? hehehe. I nearly spiled my coffee.
              I have having my wonderful coffee, freshly roated last month HEHE .. but it was ground by my little machine, strong I make it, it makes my hair stand up.. a little cream, and a spoonful of our wonderful maple sirup.. on which was remarked on by my alien visitor when he see me licking off the spoon ” why are you drinking blood of the tree”?

              Marildi, wish you were here.. and I have H.D. ice cream in the freezer, come and get it!!!
              About LRH,,, I just read tooooo many things real or added what ever. by now I know his body is dead but has not been burried…
              Just have a recall of a name speedo those small things called…..i think…
              dont mix that up with speedy hehehe.
              Geir must have gone to church since it is sunday, oh i forget over there is evening..

            6. Evening or not, no male would dare pop up on this thread. (I swear! I wrote that before I thought about it! And now I’m just on too much of a roll to delete it – the physics of momentum has me at total effect. :D)

              But now I’m going to have to be speedy and get all my stuff done so I can come back later with my usual multiple 2 cents. Ha ha! And ta ta…

              p.s. I just read your last comment about your post on humor. Yes, I read it, and that’s my whole excuse for joining in with you in such unladylike 🙂 behavior on an international blog!

            7. Marildi, i wonder what those male- man have of which we old hans dont know anything about. could there be secrets i have not discovered after having four husband? and having few friends inbetween those husbands?
              Has to be that ; some secrets left uncovered, my duplication was not up to par those days!
              Great balls of fire! J.l. lewis http://youtu.be/4Q_olybarxU love his wild music. But here is Vitas I know him from other place other time, a true OT Voice, the most beautiful on this Planet Vitas http://youtu.be/r3yfFOq_CFQ
              Marildi one who is in the spiritual universe, who operates from there by having viewpoints of different, well this kid has sides never has been shown in any blog international- domestic, underworld, name it .. did I leave out something?
              Here is a question… what is the reason unmentionables have become unmentionable? What are the reasons body parts are hidden? One’s hands are out in the open every one can see those, we all have those and we all have all very similar bodies only a bit difference here and there… But consideration well. Those are the very reason one is shamed of ones whatever….
              Ugh… Those culprit offenders: those wild considerations!!
              About lady like behaviour… well…. By now you know what I think of that.
              [Marias forthcoming visit here, I am a bit worried about that, she might bring her tomahawk and do me in.. for me saying something about her phony lady like behaviour.] Hehehe, got Ya again kid!

            8. Marildi did you read ‘Humor’ what is, in my blog? can you recall when I said why humor hold danger to some? what humor do and why it is breaks it up, makes it lighter that old heavy topic and when placed in different light can become a fun topic.?.
              So those who lack sense of humor, man oh man they are one solid heavy individual who can’t stand change in their solid universe and will not allow others either , we MUST HAVE ORDER…ORDER IN THE UNIVERSE or the boogey man will lock you up!
              I still don’t have the information I am seeking…. 🙂 so speak up folks, secrets are not valuable commodity to have… those secrets are nothing but huge self-created prisons, holding one there for eternity.

            9. Well geez – I’ve been hearing stories since about 1979 (give or take). Started with my X-husband who said “the shit’s gonna hit the fan”. He thought that LRH had died because he had picked up on it. Turns out that LRH had gotten sick (or so its been said) but recovered and then died in 1986. But in 1985, I was hanging out at Thea Greenberg’s in Altadena, CA and I heard so many amazing and also awful stories back then. But not until I got a computer in 1995 did I start to hear a lot more stories. By 1997 or so, I started hearing more and more. Then in the 2000’s I could look around the computer and find hundreds of different “proofs” that LRH had lied about one thing or another (concerning himself). Some people had gone to the trouble to dig up his old records and then put them on the net. Geez – have I kept all that info? Garsh – not!!

              Some people that I’ve talked to in the last year and have read some of their stories have been on the Yahoo group called XSO. Some people on that list actually worked with LRH and some of the stories from the old ships he had were fascinating.

              I don’t know, if you want to gather up information, on the net – probably now is a good time for it – but its very time consuming.

              I’ve certainly had my fun with it. And what has it done for me? Well, it helped me dig out the propaganda – pertaining to particular doctrines or principles propagated by Scn. Doesn’t have to be lies or malicious necessarily. Also, to separate LRH’s opinions vs. workable concepts and actions. I don’t have to clear the planet. That was actually a campaign to get people “on board”, more or less. Another stuck purpose. John Sanborn actually helped LRH with that phrase over a beer in LRH’s backyard. At least that’s what John told me back in 1979 :). When I heard that, it just busted that balloon. Made it sound so “small”.

              So, have fun – and as I now say – when in doubt….Google!!! lol!!

    2. Thank you Marildi, you are nothing if not thorough. I am not following Marty Rathbun’s work as it iterated far away from my own purposes decades ago.

  22. Marildi – After I wrote that I sort of regretted it because of I’m weary of commenting on the Church of Scientology. If I could divorce this talk of exchange from COS I would like to in order to put some distance between the subject of exchange and our various unhappy experiences of exchange with COS. The COS is a Karl Marx textbook example of a type of capitalism which alienates its workers from the profits which they are producing. That COS is a profit-making machine and little else is no longer in dispute, is it?

    Having said that, I would like to focus on the principle of capitalism as a pyramid from which only the top few layers can benefit. Maybe this should be reserved for another thread for although it is related to help, it is off-topic for Geir’s OP which really only meant to consider his own attitude toward asking for help.

    1. Chris, you are funny! First you say you’re weary of commenting on the Church of Scientology and regretted having done so again. And then you immediately follow it with a few more pointed comments. 😀 (Couldn’t resist that crack, because I know you’ve got broad shoulders. ;))

      Well, I’m with Lyn – haven’t been that interested and don’t know much about political or economic theories. But I was never interested in quantum physics either, for example, until you guys all got on a roll. Why don’t you submit a post for Geir to consider as a guest blog post?

  23. Chris – Personally I think you should start another thread. Is that possible? I’m not exactly computer literate yet. I’m still learning.

    But I have to tell you, I’m terrible with political ideas and concepts. Its not been an interest of mine this lifetime. Lots of others do that :). I have to be explained like a child, how the World Bank works and all the fraternity stuff and how money hasn’t been “real” for a long time, etc. etc. ad nauseum. I did enjoy looking up whatever I could get my hands on about Freemasons and also how “New Thought” writers back in the 1800’s and early 1900’s who wrote about “New Thought” were usually connected to Freemasonry.

    Other than that – ya lost me.

        1. oh! I see… well, to post a new OP on Geir Isene’s blog you could simply write him an email to g@isene.com and discuss it with him. He has a track of being quite generous in this regard. If he thinks your idea sounds interesting you may be in business.

          To circumvent that, and to start your own blog, you simply write wordpress.com in your address bar then click on “my blog” and follow the instructions… you can have your own blog like this one up and running in 20 minutes or so. This is a free service from WordPress (to name another organization whose free service doesn’t seem to equal free fall.)

  24. Lyn you are right, politics is a deep heavy subject…really low on the tone scale… not my bag either…. i dont even know who is on the board here in this senior village, so I stay with my investigation about LRH’s unmentionables… my line of work…. a true OT should know important vital information like that to the smallest details.. …

    1. A true OT – well, that’s someone who’s gonna be able to pursue whatever it is they wish, no matter how long it takes :). Oh – I bet you are sometimes quite amused at your village living with seniors. I “almost” live in a senior community. It was that way about 30 years ago, but gradually its become more family oriented. Houses built in the early 60’s and there are still some people who bought from that time period living a few houses away.

      Isn’t it wonderful how far off one can get from an original post – lol!!

      1. Lyn I believe you did not duplicate any of the none-sense I have said… Sorry i have caused some kind of short in your system, i dont get you at all,
        It has to be my duplication out of order… yap that is that… i need a session,
        PS i dont partake in the senior activities i just have a place here,,, I only have a senior body not the mind, since i dont have a “mind”

        1. Don’t you think it ironic – here you say that you don’t think I got any of what you’ve said and yet you tell me you don’t get me at all – lol!! Maybe I “did” get what you said but you didn’t get what I said (teasing). Well, I suppose if you don’t talk to “any” of the seniors around you, then my mentioning that you might be a little amused by them, doesn’t count. I never said you involved yourself in activities. As far as unmentionables regarding LRH – I’m not sure if those exist any longer. So much has been said on the net already. And as far as politics go – there are lots of people who love that kinda stuff because that’s certainly as popular as sports on the net (well, almost). OT’s – we’re all OT’s – its just a matter of who, what and how we operate, LRH only had one version of it :).

  25. Hi Lyn,

    Well, my dear, let me start this way. You said, “This is what LRH did. He’d take other people’s ideas, and then say it was his because he would revise it somewhat.”

    From what I know it would minimally be quite the generality to say “This is what LRH did” and leave it at that. And then to not only say he would take others’ ideas and “revise it” but add the word “somewhat” to that – is another unfair and inaccurate downplay and downgrade of what LRH actually accomplished.

    Obviously, you and I have different experiences and different sources. 🙂

    Let’s take EST, as an example, since you mentioned it. My understanding is that EST was not just a squirrel or splinter group but that the reason it fell under the policy “Enrollment in Suppressive Groups” was that it was in fact suppressive, with a vicious method of group evaluation and invalidation. That conclusion was apparently reached by how much it factually messed people up.

    I’ve read accounts by auditors who have audited pcs who had been in EST, or audited such in later years on the EST Repair List, and they all seem to have no doubt about the huge amounts of BPC from EST seminars, due to eval, inval, heavy restim of engrams, and wrong items (that last being the source of the greatest BPC one can have, per LRH). Those auditors and others saw EST as more of a control operation than anything.

    As for why the CoS went after Erhard in the 80’s, it seems that Singer of Singer Consultants had not only been in EST but a trainer(!) and thus wouldn’t be allowed on OT levels until it had been disbanded. Well, Singer was a big-time FSM, not to mention a contributor of big bucks, so… what more need be said? 😉

    It’s very true that a lot of crap went on. And I too have learned that LRH himself was no angel. But as for major outnesses, i.e. the ones to do with the direction things went , at this point I have the idea that he may basically have been a desperate man who ultimately took desperate measures as the only hope he saw for the salvation of Scientology itself (as per my post above, quoting Marty Rathbun).

    But what’s really interesting is the diametrically opposed data that one can come across about any given thing. Like what LRH was like to be around, for example. I’ve found that people who worked closely with him (rather than having simply been in the nearby vicinity) generally have quite positive things to say. Dan Koon was one who worked directly with LRH for a long time, both on films and in the Tech Compilations Unit, and he said quite simply that the S.O. was fun when LRH was around and started its marked deterioration after he was gone.

    I tend to believe the stories of those who I respect and Dan Koon is definitely one. Besides his long-term, up-close experience on staff he is highly trained and experienced with the tech and couldn’t be more positive about that too, as are the vast majority of those who are trained and have a lot of experience actually using the tech.

    Be that as it may, what each of us chooses from the diversity of data all over the internet may come about more than anything as a result of our own outlook, experience, and sometimes just plain bias.

    I have to say, though, your whole last paragraph was pretty darn fair. 😉

  26. Marildi 🙂 Oh my dear – lol!! You must be a writer or something. You have so eloquently taken my sentence and broken it down. I admit, it was a very poor attempt at trying to keep an opinion of mine short when I mentioned LRH’s modus operandi regarding his style of translating, recreating and setting up research teams for the areas he read and heard from different people, around the world. Plus taking ideas and creating different words for them. My speculation about LRH creating the type of vernacular that he did, was partially to avoid any type of perjury or copyright infringement. It was brilliant. And not until a person gets threatened with being sued do they truly understand this need for changing “the script” so to speak.

    I find it rather interesting that some of the complaints you have heard from auditors who have “fixed” those from EST, are some of the exact complaints I have heard from those who have been in the S.O. Here is a supposed group of people who are the backbone of Scn and keeping it running and yet, dreadful reports and stories come out of there. It would not surprise me if some of those people coming out of the S.O. need more help than the EST people did.

    I had a chance to meet several people from EST and really they’re like the early days of when “staring” at people as if this was confront, was a popular thing to do. I believe that would be in the late 60’s and early 70’s. Its really weird when someone with big blue eyes does this – lol!! Well, EST went on to become “The Forum” and then I believe it was sold to Mr. Rosenberg’s (Erhard) brother and is now Landmark Education. And if I’m not mistaken I’m sure people who come out of that are still complaining. But as well, there are people who probably have had wins, etc. out of it.

    I agree with you that some people are going to have different experiences with those in the upper echelons of Scn. I’ll even bet there are people who say great things about DM and can’t imagine him being some sort of tyrannical insane person. I’ve heard many different types of stories from people who worked with him, hung out with him, were only peripherally connected, etc. It went from as if the person were worshipping him to a person who thought he was the devil incarnate. And then I met a wonderful lady who had worked with him who said that LRH could encompass both sides to himself and he was aware he had a light and a dark side.

    Just think the more mysteries and semi to actual truths that are created about LRH, whether they be good or bad, the longer he’ll last in a group’s memory.

    You know, I love both my daughters above and beyond – but I’m not blind about them. I’ll never tell you they’re perfect and that they don’t have something they couldn’t improve upon. I’ll never tell you they don’t lie, nor get into things that I personally think they could very well do without. But I respect who they are.

    I’m not blind to what LRH may have done to get his services and products known on a vast scale. Some things may have looked deceiving and a con because “man” can be rather stubborn about how the rules are played. But the end results is what counts. What the products were and what people get out of it. This is actually how I feel about the subject in general.

      1. Totally agree Chris and in evaluating and re-evaluating, its good to handle mistakes and other things one might think are out.

    1. No, Lyn, not a writer but I do copy editing. And if I had been editing something like what you wrote I would have simply said to the writer that it was somewhat ambiguous and thus could be interpreted in different ways. But, truth to tell, I had a preconceived notion of the way you must mean that sentence (hahaha). So thanks for the theta reply on that!

      And after reading what you wrote in your last paragraph, I no longer have any such idea at all:

      “Some things may have looked deceiving and a con because “man” can be rather stubborn about how the rules are played. But the end results is what counts. What the products were and what people get out of it. This is actually how I feel about the subject in general.”

      In fact, you spoke for me too! I do give you credit for all the data you have dug up, and it’s gratifying to know that after doing all that you’re conclusion is that “the end results is what counts”. My sentiment exactly. 🙂 And I’ve commented that the tech should be improved upon wherever possible. So I’m not actually fixed in my viewpoints, though some insist upon their preconceived notions about them (like I did with you, LOL).

      In any case, I’ve read and heard enough to know that with just about any story or experience, you can find lots of the opposite too. And my interest isn’t in putting that much time and effort into the oceans of data – especially since I already know pretty well what I think of “the products and what people can get out of it”, to quote you. The philosophy and tech is what I believe should be focused on.

      Btw, I feel the same way about my sons as you do about your daughters – love them above and beyond but know they aren’t perfect. Loved your whole post, Lyn! 🙂

      1. Hi Marildi 🙂 A copy editor – yes, that makes more sense with your ability take a sentence and break it down to its parts. Are you currently working as a copy editor?

        I admit, I have a tendency to be ambiguous at times. Its usually an effort to either shorten something or put some tact into what might be a sensitive subject. Sometimes it backfires on me :).

        Its difficult to know someone, really, through email. Can’t hear the inflections or see attitudes too well. Thank you for being thorough with me and replying in kind with kindness :).

        1. Yes, I’m working as a copy editor in PT. Started doing it after I left the SO.

          Your writing, btw, is pretty good. I got better at it myself after writing many KRs (LOL), and then with practice on blog comments (LOL). As you say, without the inflections and visible indicators, it’s a challenge. But I learned to tailor my posts and read others’ with that consideration in mind. And I learned that you can get to know a person pretty well from just a written comm line, at least after a while. In fact, I only semi-laughingly wrote on a comment one time that “You can know them by their blog posts”. 🙂

          Btw, I thought of you in a discussion going on over on Geir’s “What culture does it foster?” blog thread (which you should join in on!). Comments have been made that no one ever lasted who worked closely with LRH – that one by one he got rid of them, and that he never was able to keep ANY friends. Since you have heard and read a lot, I wanted to get your impression on that. What can you tell me?

  27. My apologies – in the 4th paragraph down, I was referring to LRH when I said “I’ve heard many different types of stories from people who worked with him, hung out with him, were only peripherally connected, etc.” – not DM.

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