Invitation to critique my OT VIII success story

Just found the success story I wrote when I completed OT VIII in June 2006. Since then I have evolved and my viewpoints have changed considerably. It is interesting to look back at what I wrote at the time. I would like to invite the readers of this blog to comment on my views at the time. I will answer any questions you have. Let’s roll 🙂

I never imagined that there could be so much gain available in such a short amount of time. There are no words to describe the massive amount of gain on this level.

My viewpoint is dramatically different. Everything has shifted. People around me are brighter, the sky is clearer and the birds sing more in harmony.

Barriers are removed from me being Tone 40. My creative thrust and ability has increased immensely.

I am stripped of must-haves. I don’t need to be in action. I don’t need to be productive. This makes me free to be more in action and more productive. I do not need to perceive, neither do I need to know. I can simply and freely perceive and know.

I have never experienced such a boost on the tone scale, in awareness and in productivity.

I love life. My love for others is profound. My respect and admiration for other people is deep and sincere.

Let me share a secret with you: If you are not OT VIII; If you had just one minute of my existence, just one minute, you would spend every hour awake to get yourself to OT VIII.

To the crew of the Freewinds: You are an amazing team, spearheading existence itself by making sure the first OT level is available to all. The eligibility was the most thorough I have seen. Since withholds makes a being not have, it also makes him not have gains. The OT VIII eligibility is indeed needed to make it possible for me to have such massive gain.

To RTC: You set the standard for what a standard should be. By meticulously ensuring the tech is standard and applied to the letter, you safeguard the future for all.

To LRH: There are no words invented to describe the respect and admiration I have for you. This I will make up for in action. I will not let you down.

Update: See my current views on this success story.

445 thoughts on “Invitation to critique my OT VIII success story

    1. +1 Alanzo, I wish I had my folders from those days so I could remind myself of those viewpoints. Nevertheless, I remember quite well anyway and I could just as well have written this success as Geir.

      1. oh.. Chris you have not said before that you done OT8 too! wonderful for you. you should have shared your cognitions with us! See, these proves it that we dont know everything about each other!

          1. 🙂 delighted that you have.. 🙂 I knew you would, but I dont see the point why you do what you do? you have done the same to me with my cognitions you have claimed you had those too. I have a theory on this and PLEASE believe me it is not bad, in fact I think it is fantastic..You see, I noticed the same with you other persons who were doing the same and neither have been in scientology. 🙂

      1. Yes. I found his books “The Believing Brain” and “Why People Believe Weird Things” life-changingly educational for me and I wrote a blog post about it.

        He mentions Scientology in those two books numerous times. Having grown up in LA, he’s familiar.

        Alanzo

    2. Geir – It is so admirable and humble you would put that out to expose such a vulnerable moment. Kudos my friend.

      here is one critique: (since you asked) And for the record — part of my critique is directed squarely at myself (I recognize themes in that success story with my own ‘success stories’) for my own similar descent of thought during my short time ‘in’ and longer time getting ‘out’

      “Let me share a secret with you: If you are not OT VIII; If you had just one minute of my existence, just one minute, you would spend every hour awake to get yourself to OT VIII.”

      I think this is a great example of the narcism that Scientology induces as a necessary condition to its functioning. Because, really, if you didn’t think that statement or at least try very hard at pretending you thought that statement as true, you would have to admit being the biggest sucker in the Caribbean Sea.

      Another outpoint in that statement is the implicit lack of connection with other people.”if you had just one minute ….” This author states through omission that he actually has no idea how other people actually feel and exist within their personal lives. There is only speculation of how the ‘other’ lives without any sign of intimacy or empathy.

      What do you think?

  1. To critique you would be like looking in the mirror, and I think we have both walked a similar path since we left Scientology. I would love to sit down with you one day and talk about our experiences since we left Scientology.

      1. Well, I live in the middle of the United States… St Louis, Missouri. I think it would be more pleasing to the eyes to make a trip there.

  2. That is a let it all hang out post Geir – awesome and courageous, thank you for putting that up. My critique? This is hard core honesty shining such a bright light on the past in this way. This is all a person can ask of one’s self. Maybe more later as others add to the discussion.

      1. Geir, as regards the benefits you got from your association with Brendan, would you say that your gains in Scientology were a significant factor in preparing you for being ready and able to have those benefits?

        That’s how I see this type of thing. When you met Brendan, you were a different being than you would have been had you not done Scientology – i.e., the gains you got, you brought with you. This is obviously true for other kinds of experiences too, of course, but in your case the stepping stone was Scientology. That’s basically how I look at Scientology – as a stepping stone. usually a big one, toward higher levels of ability and awareness.

          1. I figured that, but I didn’t think it would be to the same degree – the kind of profound changes you described.

            1. I believe you may be wrong in this. You could ask his wife 😉

              Beyond that – I do think that I would have comparable, albeit different, profound changes in life had I travelled the path I set out before I got into Scientology – to break through in astrophysics.

            2. Well, I can believe his wife would be another special case. But I wouldn’t expect too many others – or there would probably be a shrine for him by now. 🙂

              As for the path of astrophysics,I thought you had been stalled on the subject – until you got Method 1 word clearing on it.

            3. Funny as it seems, I have a friend who wanted to go into physics but he couldn’t manage to get through his calculus class. And if I remember right, that was why he changed his major. So I don’t know if it’s true that “the University path” would have gotten you through. Didn’t you say that you had even lost interest in physics by the time you got into Scientology?

            4. Yes, I did – but not in mathematics. And I excelled at math. And it is very true that had I kept on that route, physics and astrophysics would have come back. That M1 win is really a minor win compared to all wins I’ve had.

              Interesting how you insist that Scientology MUST be seen to work wonders and how you cling to it – regardless of what I say.

            5. Interesting how you insist that Scientology MUST be seen to work wonders and how you cling to it – regardless of what I say.

              Sorry. I don’t mean to bug you. I guess I’m still trying to reconcile the fact that you sometimes say your wins were worth every penny and every bit of effort, and other times you say things like you did to Katageek just a bit ago – that the OT VIII win was only temporary, even though you posted not too long ago how much that level changed your life.

            6. Ehm… maybe this has nothing to do and I’m meddling where I shouldn’t, but in my opinion the effects of ayahuasca are temporary and change people’s lives forever, and the same for any other type of peak experience that would have been worth it. Even the very negative and shocking experiences are temporary and changes people’s lives. Maybe this could help for make an argument about reconciling those views.

          1. Did you also see my comment on that blog post? Or the post by Watchful Navigator, and my reply to it? Mine and his posts express my views pretty well. 😉

            1. Scientology does not deliver any of its original main goals – the Clear and the OT despite millions of hours spent trying to iron out the creases in the tech. It does not deliver. Perhaps it is time to research beyond Scientology altogether if those are the goals one seeks? There must be a limit to the amount of effort it takes to fix this broken subject or the amount of effort one can put into justifying the same.

            2. “Scientology does not deliver any of its original main goals – the Clear and the OT despite millions of hours spent trying to iron out the creases in the tech. It does not deliver. Perhaps it is time to research beyond Scientology altogether if those are the goals one seeks?”

              A poster on Marty’s thread (“TreasonousFu*k”) gave an intelligent response to that, in relation to any research:

              “Ron had a vision of what the State of Clear was and decided that this idealistic state must exist…therefore, somehow and in some way it can be reached. When his efforts to produce this ‘perfect’ state didn’t satisfy his expectations, he looked for reasons why. Ron’s pointing out of outpoints had research value. You go down a calculated path (yes some trial and error) and you see where it leads. When it doesn’t lead where you want it to you look for the ‘real why’ and then you recompute a new path, take that to it’s end, and the cycle repeats, ad infinitum, until you realize your vision.” http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/standard-scientology-2/#comment-313305

              “There must be a limit to the amount of effort it takes to fix this broken subject or the amount of effort one can put into justifying the same.”

              Why do you suppose there seems to be no limit to either you or I continuing to express our views on this “broken subject”?

            3. That reminds me – have you done the “original OT levels” yet? It seems to me there was some talk about it a couple of years ago, and you were going to report back on your results…..

            4. May be just as well. They would make you too powerful and the wogs would have to come after you with their prods and theta traps before you got all the way through them and escaped entirely. Can’t have that, ya know? Wadda ya think, Chris? You live out in the Wild West.

            5. “Wadda ya think, Chris? You live out in the Wild West.”

              Magnetic field thetan traps, glycol and DC-8 at the ready for Marildi’s thetan to make one false move!

  3. Actually, I feel that way, the way you wrote right now. I sat here for a moment and just rehabbed that moment and got it crystal clear as a bell. Difference is now I am not a Scientologist, not in that frame of reference and yet I feel as you wrote. What do I think is going on? Maybe one partitions off, compartmentalizes a piece of their life, a frame of reference. They work toward consistency within that frame of reference and then having occupied and smoothed every cubic milimeter of that space realizes they are yet incomplete and on we go? At least that’s how I’m feeling.

    1. Hey Chris, interesting take. Shifting around the ‘edges’, perhaps provides a CLEARER view, though there is one teensie weensie little element that stymies the very best of intentions to find ‘completeness’.

      — There’s “nothing” there!

      Yes, it appears, that the entire bunch of sages, were spot on with their observations, Call it –‘life essence’, ‘id’,’soul’, ’cause’, ‘thetan’, ‘the static’, or anything you prefer. But at the very core, there remains, the said “nothing”, other than a potentiality to ‘be’.

      Therefore, everything else is the result of considerations, which then take on the appearance of reality. In fact, this is the real kicker. We consist of ‘nothing’!!! Big joke eh?? 🙂

      Yup, everything else, it would seem, is merely “added on”.

      I have found that Adyashanti, comes closest to exposing this primary ‘beingness’, in his assortment of video presentations.

      1. “— There’s “nothing” there!”

        Thanks Calvin, I appreciate that. I know it is popular to talk about intangible things as nothing, however, even mental objects have substance, even if very little.

        By nothing, I don’t mean the zero of apples on my plate which takes relativity into account. I am referring to the nothing of “no thing.” This is the pretended zero of unknowable. Nothing is unknowable and thus we have the basic tautology of this universe. What we consist of seems to include experience and knowledge but there is never ever nothing there, and when there is, we don’t know it! hahahaha!

          1. Better not since they are completely replaceable in Field Theory and arguably needn’t and indeed may not “really” exist. 🙂

            Been digging in on Prasangika interpretations of Emptiness in recent years and have come to the perspective that Buddhists really did succeed in describing a philosophical theory describing the nature of the existence of phenoma from strictly rational and logical roots (albeit from a different cultural tradition of formal logic than that which is current) 1300 years before the issues associated with Q.E.D. became apparent to modern science.

            To my mind the biggest “deviation” lies in the fact that in Buddhist theory the emphasis on “phenomena” embraces even phenomena which would be seen to lie outside the strict limits mensurability expected in the physical sciences.

            However, their model does succeed in extending itself to encompass the phenomena of Consciousness, something for which western science has so far been unable to posit a meaningful, consistent, and cogent theory.

            1. “However, their model does succeed in extending itself to encompass the phenomena of Consciousness, . . . ”

              Hi Mark, I met you at Aida’s. Every model of the mind extends itself to encompass consciousness, doesn’t it? Isn’t the more pertinent question, one which Science addresses, whether these “results” are repeatable? Observable? Applicable? These are just things I wonder about.

            2. >> Hi Mark, I met you at Aida’s.

              That seems likely.

              >> Every model of the mind extends itself to encompass consciousness, doesn’t it?

              Not really. Consciousness is a subjective experiential reality, arguably THE fundamental subjective experiential reality. Though the experience is, to some degree, universal among all sentient beings, both the limits of that experience as well as its fundamental nature are not generally well understood.

              The physical, neural, and cognitive sciences work mostly from network models which claim to “explain” consciousness as an emergent property of the probabilistic function of various types of computing networks or “machines”. The FIRST problem with that model is it can’t actually demonstrate how consciousness is actually suppose to arise. Secondarily, no one has yet created a genuinely conscious artificial engine, something which a wide variety of lifeforms (arguably all) can clearly be seen to exhibit.

              The “Problem of Consciousness” has been a central issue in philosophy since at least the time of Plato, although not all agree on what the exact nature of the problem is. 🙂

              Basically though there is the basic issue of the nature of consciousness, its origin, the way in which it relates to specific mental function, and how it perceives and interacts with the apparent “real world” (aka physical universe).

              Buddhism from its origin has been a philosophy predicated on the application of reason to resolve the experience of suffering, especially as it is seen to relate to fundamentally misguided attitudes and internal mental conflicts. The relationship of mental phenomena to natural phenomena has been a central area of analysis in Buddhism for quite literally thousands of years. There have been and remain many different approaches to addressing these questions within Buddhism.

              My remarks referenced specifically the branch known as Prasangika, a school particularly noted for their interest in and refinement of tools of reason and logic in analyzing the nature of phenomena as a means toward achieving enlighenment, the central goal of every Buddhist. Their interpretation of Buddhist thought has the advantage of being logically consistent, coherent, systematic, and embracing all experiential phenomena, including yet not limited to natural phenomena.

              Whether it is ultimately “true” is a different matter, but although it is not an easy study it can serve as a great aid in developing insight.

              One of my running “mantras” for sometime has been:

              Taoism as a belief system.
              Buddhism as a philosophical path of understanding.
              Clearbird scientology as a practice.

              The combination generally works well together, although that is not to say that others things aren’t also useful or that these might not be improved upon.

              And definitely Clearbird, specifically as it cuts out so much of the innate deadwood of hubbard’s presentations as well as the self-serving indoctrination inherent in “official” materials.

            3. Mark A Baker

              I’ve picked over each one of your outrageous claims and absurd stances and can not find one thing that I can disagree with.

              Dammit!

              Alanzo

              (looking up Prasangika now… Welcome back ya wordy douche!)

            4. CHRIS: “Every model of the mind extends itself to encompass consciousness, doesn’t it?”

              MARK: “Not really… (too many complicated words)”

              (1) My simple understanding provides me with a one-to-one correspondence between the essence and its form.

              (2) The essence denotes “spirituality” and the form denotes “physicality.”

              (3) “Awareness – light” is one example of this one-to-one correspondence.

              (4) “Self – body” is another example of this one-to-one correspondence.

              (5) Light represents electromagnetic disturbance that condenses to form energy and matter.

              (6) Awareness represents “perception-recognition” disturbance that condenses into consciousness and self.

              (7) Consciousness is the awareness of the form and properties.

              (8) An atom has consciousness to the degree it acts as an atom.

              Based on the above hypothesis I would agree with Chris that “Every model of the mind extends itself to encompass consciousness.”

              .

              ________________________________

        1. The dichotomy to pay attention to is

          “awareness – non awareness”

          Ours is the universe of awareness. It is bounded by non-awareness. We cannot say anything about the region which is “absence of awareness.”

          .

        2. Gotcha bro’ Chris, Though perhaps ‘getting’ me, is going to happen for you, via the above mentioned Adyashanti, who just may undo the trick / joke, which is being played on all of us.

          You could check out ‘ The gift of wanting – Adyashanti’ – this may open up the box of tricks for you. 🙂

        3. Nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’
          You gotta have somethin’ if you wanna be with me
          Nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’
          You gotta have somethin’ if you wanna be with me

          I’m not tryna be your hero
          ‘Cause that zero is too cold for me, brrr
          I’m not tryin’ to be your highness
          ‘Cause that minus is too low to see, yeah

          Nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’
          And I’m not stuffin’, believe you me
          Don’t you remember I told ya
          I’m a soldier in the war on poverty, yeah, yes, I am

          Nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’
          You gotta have somethin’ if you wanna be with me, oh baby
          Nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’
          You gotta have somethin’ if you wanna be with me, that’s right, ha yea

          Gotta have somethin’ if you wanna be with me
          You gotta bring me somethin’ girl, if you wanna be with me

            1. Not as much soul, but marildi’s thetan likes this one too:

              Oh, I got plenty o’ nuttin’
              And nuttin’s plenty for me
              I got no car, got no mule
              I got no misery

              De folks wid plenty o’ plenty
              Got a lock on de door
              ‘Fraid somebody’s a-goin’ to rob ’em
              While dey’s out a-makin’ more
              What for

              I got no lock on de door
              Dat’s no way to be
              Dey kin steal de rug from de floor
              Dat’s okeh wid me
              ‘Cause de things dat I prize
              Like de stars in de skies
              All are free

              {Refrain}
              Oh, I got plenty o’ nuttin’
              And nuttin’s plenty for me
              I got my gal, got my song
              Got Hebben the whole day long
              No use complaining
              Got my gal, got my Lawd
              Got my song

              Oh, I got plenty o’ nuttin’
              And nuttin’s plenty for me
              I got the sun, got the moon
              Got the deep blue sea

              De folks wid plenty o’ plenty
              Got to pray all de day
              Seems wid plenty you sure got to worry
              How to keep the debbel away
              Away

              I ain’t frettin ’bout hell
              ‘Till de time arrive
              Never worry long as I’m well
              Never one to strive
              To be good, to be bad
              What the hell
              I is glad I’s alive

      2. …and what an infinity of ‘added-ons’ !

        http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=writings_inner&writingid=49

        …’a certain quality of knowing…not going to the mind for second
        opinion…’ ‘…we are awake from mind’ ‘…none of these thoughts
        define me and that’s the transcended witness’
        …’indiscriminate love, it’s just there’ ‘because it is impersonal, it
        is empty, it can be intimate’ ‘intimacy with other beings comes
        when it’s not personal’ ‘we are connecting on the level of spirit…
        true nature’ ‘it’s the collapsing of the personal and impersonal’
        ‘it’s already connected’

        ‘it sees itself out there…. when i look back, i find NO-THING and
        when i look out, i see EVERY-THING’…created and destroyed in
        every moment’

        1. Thank you Sis’. Being THERE (on the wavelength of ‘duplication’)
          permits a whole bunch of ‘add-ons’ to just rumble along their merry way, like tumble weeds in the wind. Nothing but motion of forms, without necessarily any further significance.

          Being ‘there’, (while nothing!) and simply able and willing to duplicate, is sufficient in itself. (at least until we get bored, and decide we need to dive headfirst into the very next ‘interesting’ game! Hey?) 🙂

          L, Ray

  4. Woahaha! This was painful reading. I’m in glee!

    Somewhat embarrassing too as I recall my own poetically (=pathetically) written success stories. Some were out of this world. Delusional. Brainwashed.

    Non-Scientologists reading these success stories might think “What drug is he or she on?!”

    I liked you then but I’d rather have you now that you’re just a crazy badass. 😛 ❤

    1. I had a moment to feel that same way Anette, all we can do is just embrace it. Those feelings, etc., were real then and you’re real now. It’s just a journey and we see and do a lot of things along the way . . . I’m even embracing my guilt about the way I allowed my daughter to be treated in the SO. That is more painful than my embarrassment, which I really only felt for a moment, then subsided. Partly because I’ve already been working through these feelings for years now — blogging with Geir.

  5. I used to dodge telling non-Scientologists about my experiences or minimize it when brought up. But for a while now, I’ve been accepting it as a part of who I am, where I’ve been and what I’ve done. Sometimes, if it is in context, I’ll initiate a conversation with friends, “Did I ever tell you about when I lived in a cult?”

    I get some incredulous looks but no one seems uninterested.

    1. “Did I ever tell you about when I lived in a cult?”
      I love telling people this…kind of like “this one summer, at band camp…”

      1. hahaha, good one Tara. Yeah, I used to be uncomfortable about that and so wouldn’t mention it. Now that I am comfortable with that, having lost the shame, blame, and regret, people that I tell seem unflustered by my stories as I too am unflustered. It can even be quite the trump card when discussing ideologies and the effects of allowing them to do our thinking for us.

        1. Sadly Chris, I have only fundamentalist Christianity which has little shock value. You can say you were a Scientologist.

          Way, way more interesting!

          1. Yes, we should be grateful for the advantage we have in social settings where we can play the “Hey, I can trump that. I used to be a Scientologist!”

          2. Haha, I don’t know about that. I was superbly conditioned and set up by Christianity to understand that ideologies hold the key to understanding life and to allow them to do my thinking for me! Nothing boring about that! 🙂

            I highly doubt whether these or similar tricks can be successfully played on any of my children. Raised differently, they were.

  6. I always appreciate intellectual honesty no matter where and who, and this kind of exposure is great for many to learn by empathy, since the people who may have wanted to punch you can only punch a version of you in the past, a viewpoint in the past that you no longer have.

  7. OH FUCK YEAH!

    You and Chris always go there!

    So how much of this remains experiential today? What experiential living came out of the dross?

    “Let me share a secret with you: If you are not OT VIII; If you had just one minute of my existence, just one minute, you would spend every hour awake to get yourself to OT VIII.”

    1. Thing is – I think the above quote is true for everyone being on top of Their world. I am sure it has been true for you – that you have felt so great that you could have written the above. But as it stands, it sounds permanent. It is not. It was a moment of joy.

      1. OK, well, whenever you do give your critique of it, I’ll be interested. (Not that I’m not interested in what others say about it.)

  8. Ok, I have some critical observations to make:

    It seems that on your success story all the credit given to the processes or the source of your gains achieved is implicit. On the last 3 paragraphs you wrote like a miss universe speech with sweet dedications, and beyond that general Scientology success story format of “I have wonderful gains, this is amazing, woohoo..
    *onomatopoeia, onomatopoeia, onomatopoeia*, you MUST do it or you crazy”, your state of being on that moment is supposed to be the result of Scientology processes.

    My question is: what factors you now think would make a person write like that? I mean, not only you, but what conditions would make anyone to feel like you and write that story?

    1. There is definitely the factor of having gone through the arduous years of stringent regimen of Solo auditing OT 7. The sense of relief from that and the general great feeling of having reached a long sought goal is an important factor. This is why I now see that success story as a) a “glorious moment” of achievement of a long sought goal, b) a letter conforming to the expectations of the group, c) skewed by kool aid, d) containing a real, lasting gain and e) jeez

      1. “This is why I now see that success story as a) a “glorious moment” of achievement of a long sought goal, b) a letter conforming to the expectations of the group, c) skewed by kool aid, d) containing a real, lasting gain and e) jeez”

        Yeah. I see that.

  9. I have to assume you were pumped full of kool aid when you wrote this

    the church talks to walls and ashtrays, posting the ot8 success story in public should be required if scientology had balls, they hide

  10. Critique? It reads as “standard” as far as OT8 Success Stories go. It’s hard to say anything meaningful about OT8 in atmosphere of intense concern about anything which might be considered “out-security” by others, right? The “kudos to RTC and Ron” are an ingrained “now-I’m-supposed-to” at that Level. I recently found some photos from my Freewinds experience. I definitely look happy! 🙂

  11. Hover Sauce: “My question is: what factors you now think would make a person write like that? I mean, not only you, but what conditions would make anyone to feel like you and write that story?”

    Geir can answer tomorrow. Tonight, my own short answer is that everyone experiences cognitive dissonance which can be from uncomfortable like “Why did I eat so much?” to suicidal with “Why do I rape and kill young children?” When an ideology is offered up which gives a buffer of understanding and relief, a great leveling of all this mental noise can occur which when conditioned and processed through that ideology a person can find themself feeling grateful. What’s your take on it? ~Chris

      1. I understand that people could achieve the same state in another contexts, far from Scientology, I’m not saying that the inner state would be exactly the same (could that be measure in any way?), but from an outside observer looking at his behavior, listening to his verbal expressions, reading his story, there would not be sustancial differences. My take on this is that external influences could be replicated, systematically designed, so an emotional amplified state of mind could be induced.

          1. Could be, but not exactly. I have my doubts if that state could be self-induced, like all the effort pursuing the carrot on the ‘bait and switch’ system. I’m sure there are many factors involved, too many variables that are not from the processes themselves but are triggered on the person. We can take the anxiety and expectation hidden on doing a process like OT 8. No matter what the goal is, given some feedback that confirms it, it will give you a buffer of relief as you said. Like doing any final test.

            Maybe an answer would be that after pursuing a goal for so long, you no longer feel your body. Add some pressure, a mindset of full responsibility on the universe and self-blame about anything that would go wrong. Then add isolation and submerged identity on the passion and energy of the group’s unity, external expectations, believing one’s at full control of all its mind’s power, getting more vulnerable at what is not seeing and influences that escapes that control, even subconsciously.

            1. Just like Marildi relentlessly tries to turn any gain into a “Scientology gain”, many critics try desperately to make it into something else. But alas, the picture is not that simple 😉

            2. I think many critics try to understand what it is, and when the only answer is

              ” if you are not OT VIII; If you had just one minute of my existence, just one minute, you would spend every hour awake to get yourself to OT VIII. ”

              then, it works like Scientology proselitism, even if the personal gains are not ‘scientology gains’, but the outcome of any set of variables influencing the experience, inside or outside the defined scientology processes.

            3. Geir wrote:

              Just like Marildi relentlessly tries to turn any gain into a “Scientology gain”, many critics try desperately to make it into something else. But alas, the picture is not that simple 😉

              No, it isn’t that simple.

              Scientology is BOTH the good and the bad, the workable and the unworkable, the successful and the disastrous.

              It’s hard for the human mind to grasp all that at the same time.

              It’s also hard to grasp all the “selves” that a person has been. It’s like driving 5 cars at the same time.

              This success story represents an earlier self.

              Geir Isene – Uncut represents a later self.

              That’s about all that can be said about it, I think.

              The rest is ineffable.

              Alanzo

  12. The other observation is that despite the poetic style of an amplified emotional state, I want some explanation of the first paragraph which to my suspicion is a mysterious key along with the fourth paragraph too.

    e.g., first paragraph:

    ” I never imagined that there could be so much gain available in such a short amount of time. (Why? How?)
    There are no words to describe the massive amount of gain on this level. (How’s that? Why not?) “

    1. did not have much auditing did you? [dont take this as on insult since it is not meant to be one, just asking a question since the question indicates that you do not have enough experience to realise what he means].
      some things just cant be explained with words when the person is totally independent of the MEST Universe this means not in re-stimulation in any ways, in that moment there are no barriers, no valances no beingness: one is in fact Entity on Intangible Infinite. That is a Native State.. and remains till the Entity key in and is back again on his track once more.

      1. I can’t take that as an insult, only ‘solid scientologists’ would take it like that. But as you made an inference on me and tried to give me some explanation on the paragraph with scn jargon, I thank you for that. Even if I don’t have to agree with your lecture on experience as prerequisite to realise something in that story, I like the complexity on simplicity of the language and I understand that what you describe in words can only be compared with amplified states of mind induced by drugs. I may be interested in discussing the similarities of OT processes with altered states of mind, but maybe later because as you made an effort to giving me an answer now I have something for you. Please answer honestly and with the same diligence the following question:

        Do you see yourself as someone who have more knowledge than the average person about the human mind and behavior? or, do you see yourself as someone less ignorant than the average person on the same topics?

        1. Less ignorant than the average person – but mostly so due to my many years of working with people as a manager, recruiter, coach and mental trainer.

          1. My reply and question were for Elizabeth Hamre, but your answer can be useful too. I will wait for her answer. Btw, you are more likely to differ or agree with her explanation given above?

        2. it depends on the topic and just how I am bombed out on the drug I take that moment 🙂 I dont think we have anything in common that ends the discussion for me . what I know is no interest to you and vice-versa

          1. Is that some kind of evasion? Please, don’t get so defensive. Since you have a blog, many people reads you, and you take the time to replying thoroughly with responsibility on some degree.

            Elizabeth, do you see yourself as a person with more education and appropriate training on human mind and human behavior, more than the average person? at least theoretically speaking? at least speaking of crucial and very relevant concepts that every person should know?

            1. there is nothing to defend here, words have no value .. the blog is a Diary and nothing more, and it was few days back the first time I have written outside of cognition related topic; a group of scientologist auditors who are doing using implant martials to enslave spiritual Entities the only reason I have written this post because Entities are my soul mates or I am their? no difference. I see self as on Entity on intangible Infinite…. is there more?

            2. Can you address to my question? or is that you already did it and I’m missing it? I mean, like Geir answered even if the question was not directed to him.

            3. I wonder why it is so important what are my realities if you really want to know than please read all the cognitions in my blog and that would give a very clear picture what I know. But how I understand behavior is not comparable to those who have come to understand behavior by study the subjects from teachers in universities.

            4. Didn’t matter if your answer would have taken the comparison or not on “average people”, the point is that there are some concepts that any profesional or coach on fields of mental development and social behaviourism must be aware of. Even any self-taught could educate himself on this topics. Here is a short list of very relevant scientific concepts about the human mind and/or behaviour:

              Cognitive Dissonance
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

              Forer Effect (or Barnum Effect)
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

              Placebo Effect
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

              Dunning-Kruger Effect
              http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

              Burden of Proof
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

              Pygmalion Effect
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect

              From the large list of fallacies:

              Masked Man Fallacy
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masked_man_fallacy

              Ad Hoc Fallacy
              http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ad_hoc

              And of course, many of the very extensive cognitive bias list.
              Is a concept here you never heard or that you didn’t know about? How familiar are you with them?

            5. I have not read those writings, and I wont be reading them in the future but I thank you for pulling them up.. I am not interested that is all.. and it seems you are not interested reading 230 cognitions in my blog.. so we are even.

            6. as I am watering the garden, your comment lingered among the flowers as a big question mark…. and I am wonder how ones horizon could be extended when the Entity is not operating in the Physical Universe=Planet Earth ‘s belief system, but totally outside of that realm? Let me know, I am interested in your view on that.

            7. Let me first ask you why that question lingered in your mind. Could it be that this question in itself may be a catalyst for broading your views?

            8. no.. that question was a nail driven home the understanding that you haven the clue what I write about and that writing on indicator it self just how many barriers have been removed in 41 years. not likely study of human behavior further would expand where are no horizons.

            9. yes or no Gear… yes or no… no such a thing as being little afraid, sometime afraid ,or occasionally being afraid. do humans have fears.. yes or no..

            10. that is true.. but you know human nature a little bit, you have seen news real, TV.. and by now you have seen peoples reactions when there are floods, killing, when people had huge losses like a body is being buried in a hole, when they lose jobs, thrown out of houses, loose limbs, bleak future, cant fee the kids, just being raped… should I go on.. do the human race have fears ?? that is most noticeable when valuables are taken away. so the same question yes or no..???

            11. I don’t know. But this back-and-forth-game is getting stupid. I asked you a question regarding You. You won’t answer? Ok.

            12. it is stupid we can agree on that.. but you know the answer and you refuse to give it. you have your reason not to., I respect that. Fear is a glue like substance-energy mass that energy mass is continually fueled by the human race because some established heavy considerations. Every human being has that belief therefore human race have fears. I have written 3 post on these since I have spent thousands of solo hours exploring LOOKING FOR THE REASON why FEAR id felt. I have found it..

            13. fear every trace of it has been erased 14 years back that eraser that underlying energy mass which affected everything just vanished and by not having such has given a totally different reality level.

            14. Elizabeth, you don’t come across as very enlightened. You seem to harbor much tension and attention on yourself. This makes it difficult to carry on a rational discussion with you. You quite often end up in quarrels and fights here. If that is what you want, then I will simply avoid discussing with you. If that is not what you want, I would like to hear your solution.

            15. it seems you have a preconceived idea what is enlightenment means, and I dont have reality on that what so ever.. but now I know I am far from that idea.. thank you. I have no solution on the problem you see, since it is not mine. but I will do my best from here.

            16. I simply announced that I have erased-as-isad fear you have totally invalidated my win.. erasing fear has nothing to do with enlightenment, and having different opinion has nothing to do antagonism and having attention on self.. well who just reposted his old win? So. I say good by..

            17. the win cant erased , you dont have the power to replace what has been erased for ever. but if you could you would have because the destructive remark is the indicator what your intention is. NEGATIVE WAS CREATED FOR THAT PURPOSE ONLY and you have it but it is your so you enjoy spreading it. That is not power.. we have finished.

            18. to have on ARCB in ones belief, which would null what one find real for self could only happen when that person has not trusted self yet, do not believe is self and the second reason ARCb can happen when the person believes that that others ”assumptios” are more valuable is more important than what the person believes in. In your case you thing tooo highly of your self by believing that your assumptions have that much value and importance that it affects my realities. If you are looking for to have the last word, or more ways to put me down make that your next post… it will be equal in value as SO What, or fuck it was. As that Hungarian I have written for your poppet friend just describe what I think of that major pervert. Are we clear now?

            19. Look what I found on Urban Dictionary! This amused me no end!

              “poppet”:
              A term of great endearment and affection, used to describe in one word all the feelings of warmth, comfort, kindness, generosity, honesty and strength of character you feel every time you are with that person.

              A word not to be used lightly, but one that expresses great respect and admiration for those to whom it is directed.

            20. Was it a misspelling and you meant “puppet”?

              puppet: a person, party, or state under the control of another person, group, or power.

            21. Not wrong at all! Urban Dictionary are modern slang definitions.

              The older one is from witchcraft and politics I believe, and it is along the lines of a “tool” or a voodoo doll of a person used for casting spells on him, etc. It is actually a spelling variant of ‘puppet’. Sorry Chris! Please don’t make a poppet of Chris, he has a family after all! Besides I kinda like him! 🙂

            22. Geir, here’s my 2 cents worth: Per my understanding – and experience – an out-TR2 can create the biggest ARC breaks. That’s what might have occurred.

            23. Additional mis-acknowledgement. You should have the other person’s rightness in mind.

            24. Exacto.

              Btw, I haven’t finished contemplating your posts on Nirvana. Will reply later.

            25. You’re at peace because you know it’s okay to like being acknowledged. 😉

            26. Is that on the list of famous justifications? 🙂

              And to think I’ve been accused of being hard-headed! Can’t you bend a little more often?

            27. Fear -what is….just how valuable you think MEST is?
              Cognition: one only has worries, have fears terrors, one dreads and have anxiety about the future, any upcoming events happenings if there is value importance of losing something is there, in the presence of that event…

              Just think about what one fears most: Losing things which one feels is has importance and needed for the the continuum of the bodies survival in the MEST Universe: like the body, fear of old age, of illness, death, loss of beloved partner, children, loss of memory, to lose a job, loss of one’s shelter, income, one’s ability to provide for the body, not being accepted into the ‘’RIGHT Circles where one can gain, not being acknowledged for ones accomplishments: that is on indication of lose, not invited by the “right “ people of importance: one would not gain some value than, what to wear, what to eat has great importance-values, how one looks, what ones knows has huge value.

              Each persons has fear accordance what that person hold “valuable”: fear of cars, airplanes: possibility of an accident, floods, fire, because of that one must have all sort of insurance, even one makes a contract with marriage license so the person who is considered very valuable is tied down: have to remain.

              The Fear of not being trusted is very heavy, being attacked, left alone, there is fear not having enough to eat, drink, etc…

              To lists what one fears would be impossible to compile it would be too long and would not accomplish ones goal to erase ones fear.
              But one can audit out in session the “values”, what one holds valuable and why: what and who made one to believe those items-considerations has value-importance. That works and it’s the confrontations of such a list gives powerful sessions and the cognitions just pour in like water in the tropical down pour.

              When those reasons, considerations assumptions of values are confronted in session and as-ised than fear simply vanish from ones universe..

              The assigned power to things and to others, that they are better are valuable therefore their hold importance and needed toward ones survival when those considerations are erased fear to will vanish from ones universe.

              Of course one must confront first of all what one “LOVES “the most since those things holds the most value and the possibility of their loss causes the greatest fear.
              I have blown-erased value from my universe about little over 14 years back..
              I do have understanding what is fear but no reality how that feels like.

              PS:
              Now I understand that major cognition which I have called ” Walk over” or walk out of the MEST U. into the Spiritual Universe meant to me.
              In that sessions I have erased the last remaining items from My Own Universe: the last voluble items were confronted therefore I no longer have had “things” to lose consequently I could leave without looking back at MEST.

            28. E, thanks for giving more details to explain your gains. Fantastic! 🙂

            29. I could read your cognitions in the future, no problem. But unless there are scientific researches and interesting papers on your blog, the comparison is not fair, that’s all I have to say on that. The “writings” listed are the summary concepts of interesting scientific researches, they are not mine and I’m not pontificating. I invite you to do a further investigation on the Forer Effect and Dunning-Kruger Effect, after reading them on the links so you can have a first idea, so then you can be aware and looking how it works on everyday, everywhere. Then you can apply them on any Scientology subject and see where they are taking place on the social scenario. Of course, the knowledge behind those concepts is useful and will help you to help the world, as I suppose that’s your goal. Do as you wish.

              Nothing further.

            30. if there is more than that is a body of concepts of which I am aware of.. as for responsibility by now I have realized that the Universe stands because it is made up from the negative and positive beliefs and these two body of energy balance each other. When one no longer has either than that Entity is free of the MEST U. and no longer responsible for its continual creation. Outside of the MEST U. the creation is different and do not affect the MEST U. do not alter the MEST U.. since MEST U can not be altered because it is on Illusion. I can speak BS same as any other person and I do when the fancy strikes .. Sainthood is not part of being Entity =Infinite Sainthood is a valance and that is all.

            31. I didn’t refresh and I didn’t see your answer, the above is a valid answer. If you don’t mind, I have translated your answer as that you have a body of concepts of which you are aware of. Thanks for you answer.

    2. The realand lasting gains from that specific action didn’t really dawn on me until many years later. It is this: After OT 8 I was no longer stuck in shame, blame and regret. I was actually very free of past pondering. That was the substance after OT 8. The rest is yiiihaaa, kool-aid stuff 😉

      1. “The real and lasting gains . . . ;-)”

        My own real lasting gains seem to be in the form of a core mental strength due to a well-exercised mind, like a muscle. Exercising one’s mind is an important part of physical conditioning. 2-1/2 hrs of study per day for years plus hundreds of hours of auditing left my mind very alert even if conditioned to the Scientology mindset. Now that I have emerged from that frame of reference, my mental conditioning (health) remains.

          1. KG, I love the way you don’t draw any boxes around yourself and stretch your willingness to experience to the limit. You are an excellent writer so when you feel like it, I hope you will continue (your blog stories).

        1. My own real lasting gains with the help of Scientology seem to be regaining control over my own mind, and without the help of Scientology, regaining control over my own self, but, actually, I could have used your same words Chris.

        2. Ditto. Just thinking of the massive changes Key to Life made in my life. I was on staff, therefore had the time and energy given me to study full time. I was literally loaded with MUs from very early on in life. So, I’m given the time, space and energy to clear up thousands of words….who would not benefit from that? Were this a course at college, I might have done the same….or I might have blown without the “group pressure” to continue (I’d blown college to go on staff basically). The gains from KTL were incredible and lasting for me. Of course they were/are – understanding the English language can only help. It’s impossible to lose that.

          1. “The gains from KTL were incredible and lasting for me. Of course they were/are – understanding the English language can only help.”

            Tara, you’ve got me remembering my wins on Method One W/C’ing as similar to my wins solo auditing in that I experienced a tremendous surge in confidence. From Method One I gained confidence as a student. This confidence is partly subjective but partly objective as others who know me would say I will not shy away from confronting learning or problems relating to new technology.

          2. And Tara, I got a tremendous boost of confidence solo auditing. I think the reason for this was that the “prize” of finding out secrets had been held at arm’s length for so long that there was tremendous relief in discovering what that was all about. This is my reality and anectdotal, if that. My consideration is that I gained an expanded ownership of my own mind, an ownership which I had given away to, acquiesced to the cult years before. There was a tremendous validation in that for me, totally subjective that one.

            1. Hi Chris. I didn’t have a notification set here. I love solo auditing. IMO there is no better way to evaluate your own shit and deal with it til you realize something valuable. Simple. I’m not so convinced about some things on the upper OT levels. I’m taking whatever indicates to me and has proven beneficial and leaving the rest behind.
              I am a Grad V and C/S, officially OT3 and all that stuff….I still have the basic goal of helping others through “counseling” of some sort. Working on it. RepairMyLife.com is where I’m headed…helping new people with whatever ails them with whatever tools I can use proficiently.
              What I can do now is see what benefits I got from Dn or Scn that I couldn’t have gotten elsewhere. Auditor training is one of those benefits, for myself and others. And of course I could have gotten “counselor” training. Tried it and found it lacking, big time.
              I know a few of these wonderful, caring people. If they had auditor skills to go along with whatever they’re using, they could change the world…and I mean that.
              Gotta get my kid from dance!

      2. Well, even if you would just talk about something unfalsifiable, like a christian talking about his meeting with Jesus, I will believe you and I won’t invalidate that your feelings are real. But, as you just clarified about your paragraphs, the lasting gains should be evaluated some time later, and they should be visible, measurables to the point that is not up to you to confirm it, but the people that know you well, the people around you, inside your reciprocal influence. That’s the point, like a double-blind experiment beyond your own confidence and your personal welfare. Thanks for answering with the same diligence, you really care on having responsibility with your readers.

      3. Managing shame is a big deal and a worthy skill! Affect theory lists shame as the most destructive emotion when not properly handled.

        When we feel shame we either …

        1. Attack others. “You idiot!”
        2. Attack ourselves. “I’m SUCH an idiot!”
        3. Avoid shame, “Broken Ming vase? WHAT broken Ming vase?”
        4. Block shame. “I am NOT discussing it.

        Most of us humans will do anything BUT this one thing:

        FEEL shameful and admit it for what it is.
        “This is shame. It sucks. It will pass. I feel it for what it is.”

  13. Geir,

    All right, here’s my critique: (First part written partially from the viewpoint I would have had when I was in the cult):

    Jesus, not another one of these “amazing” wins that says a whole bunch of who the fuck knows what…?!? Sounds good, but what does it really mean?

    Actually, part of it sounds like a win that could be written after having had a locational. And, wow, if you can simply perceive and know, how about telling me the winner numbers to the lottery this weekend?

    And then the sharing of that secret! Just another guilt trip for everyone who isn’t OT8, making every non-essential act in day-to-day life a fucking overt! I mean, unless you are sleeping, eating or working (maybe not even that), you are wasting your brief breath chance in eternity! God forbid that you watch a movie or have sex! Fuck that shit.

    —————————————

    My viewpoint now: What a load of delusional bullshit. Fine if you feel that way, but unless you can instantly heal my ailments, give me the winning lotto numbers, procure a bevy of beautiful vixens who will stop at nothing to have me…etc., simply via your “intention”, then I’m not buying it. After all, you are now even above “cause over life”.

    —————————————–

    However, I must say it was a perfectly written “win” which I’m sure was met with approval by the cult.

    I was on the freewinds twice. I never experienced the “service” that is always written about in the “wins” or ads. In fact, one of times I had a horrible experience!

    If you’re ever in Seattle, make sure to look me (and the other SPs here) up! I’d love to make it to Norway one of these days too.

    Bert

    1. Bert… “My viewpoint now: What a load of delusional bullshit. Fine if you feel that way, but unless you can instantly heal my ailments, give me the winning lotto numbers, procure a bevy of beautiful vixens who will stop at nothing to have me…etc., simply via your “intention”, then I’m not buying it. After all, you are now even above “cause over life”. ”’
      if he would do all that for you he would commit on Overt.. and why is that you ask: since you so smart I am sure you can figure it out your self but dont bother knowledge like that would really hurt you.
      I am so please I never run into you while I lived in Seattle.. !
      By the way he was above cause of life since life is only a human thingy… that do not exist outside in the Spiritual universe where one operates without the body.
      PS; I am not defending Geir in any ways, since he is a big boy he can do that himself: stand up on his hind legs but I post my reality which has been gained from experience and I too belong to the same delusional group who is communicating via computer but from that Universe where life dont exist.. has no meaning etc..etc.. etc..

      1. Wow Elizabeth, sorry I offended you. My response was to Geir’s question, and it was an honest reply. Since leaving Scn, I have expanded spiritually 100x+ more than possible while in the cult. As to your statement that “he would commit an Overt”, I’m sorry, but Overts and Witholds are a limited process – and that’s from LRH! Don’t remember the name of the bulletin, but I’m sure you can find it.

        1. “O/W, A Limited Theory”- They point being that “Pulling in a motivator due to committing an overt” is not governed by some sort of natural spiritual law, but is instead a mechanism that one must first be accept or be indoctrinated into.

          1. Dexter here is a bit more on O/w’s as my reality in my Universe and I have come to conclusion from experience.. I stay with the cognitions I have had on this item.. regardless…. I know it is fine with you 🙂 But I have found out while soloing that while one can run out of Overts ””but one never can runs out of Withholds””
            Asking that question with that one is opening up ones universe that special place where no other being beside you can enter not even with your permission and here one discovers what actually withholds are: withholds what is seldom seen by others, withholds are the basic- core of every spiritual being and that core is well hidden even from self : because while one operates-plays in the MEST universe he is never-ever himself as the true spiritual being.

            While playing a game he puts forward that front, that personality who the game player is, that character, character who is now mocked-up, that actor the role player: he is always BEING SOMEBODY, HAVING SOME KIND IF IDENTITY, HAVE , uses VALANCE’S GALORE : I am…… this or that: always playing being somebody…

            Here is a question: While he is playing that role where he really is at? Where is that creator, who is that originator, that powerful being who has produced all those wonderful games which is called having life, living-being?
            After playing millions of different roles over the eons, could one really recall who is or was “THAT SELF” originally who is that mighty creator?

            Running the Rudiments and including in every session the O/W and that special question “has the withhold been missed” becomes very important.

            As a solo auditor I have discovered for myself that ”SELF”” what one is, how one is, who really one is and thinks- believes in and capable of creating-doing, that achiever: that question was the most significant- important- vital-major and therefore without asking that question one would never discover the true SELF… and realise the reality of our abilities.
            I have found out one always have withholds if one is willing to confront that inner core that true creator; the self.

            Because that question asked over hundreds of thousands of times and from the answers one slowly discover unrevealed and one learns the answers: just who is that well hidden Entity under those thousands of different identities valances.

            That question opened up the treasure chest which contained the missing information, knowledge what is the real meaning of on Spiritual Being what is the Spiritual universe and what are the abilities one have.

            1. Nice. This to me aligns with the statement that “the only aberration is denial of self”.

              I found your posts about ‘fear’ interesting too, because my perception of “success stories’ in general is that they contain fear, among other elements.

        2. Bert you have not offended my beliefs.. and I know you have addressed your communication to Geir.. And I still say it would be a OVERT OF GIANT MAGNITUDE TO GIVE something like you have said.. trust me I know what is on overt and I know what withholds are in fact Here is my view on the O/W’s from my blog and we can debate any time you care to on the same subject.. By the way ”SPIRIT” cant expand only matter can Spirit holds no mass, it is not made. I have realised how valuable is finding the WITHOLDS were because asking the question ‘HAS THE WITHOLD BEEN MISSED?” the truth come out how I really-secretly think of others, self and the Universe in general. When this question asked I found out my hidden side the real me and by continually digging for WITHOLDS I gotten to know not only how I thought and my believes were but why these beliefs originated and what is my reality-beliefs are of others too [ as the hidden thought have surfaced and I gotten to know every ability I ever had and what I ever done and I understood the reasons for all my actions for all my creations: and that understanding has come in the form hundreds of cognition.
          There is power in understanding one self, and that is the only power one has, having money-possessions do not contain power because they are just solid objects, the real power one have when one is a knowing Entity operating in the Spiritual Universe.
          It was and is a thrill to know the abilities I rediscovered and how I have created everything in this universe and that is my track and this track also contains my interaction with others.
          Knowing; confronting the O/W’s about self gives the person the great case gain, with that recovered one has the understanding of self and that understanding completes self and with that the power=abilities are regained.

          By human considerations my O/W’s their impact in the universe not only on others around me but on my-self were huge, mind boggling, yet knowing them has given more understanding of SELF:the real me, since there is not much to the SELF when one only look for the “GOOD SIDE” like flapping about having wings and playing the saintly game: being always good, that is easy, looking only at the good side there is nothing one ever finds: any simulation and able to confront the deep heavy aberration which is so well hidden.[ being good, playing being good is a valance, so is being bad. Being something or somebody is a valance– a role one plays.
          One’s power is hidden and forgotten, buried deep with one’s Overt and Withholds, those O/W’s are the nails an ones coffin and we have many reasons for having them and those are reasons usually other O/W’s … hehehe… we love complications-problems.
          Confronting ones O/W’s one can find incidents what one really can do, how one play’s the games, and how we think in our own privacy about other persons..
          By confronting our the WITHOLDSs we discover our private universe which is unknown to others, and we finally understand the self!
          Rudiments, running the Rudiments; asking those questions is the magical wand we all have been looking for and it is the key because they point to confrontation and by confronting the unwanted with that we erase those ARCB’x and the eraser of unwanted is replaced by different- more positive thinking and this opens the door to different universe which we have forgotten and we also regain the knowledge we have had but was walled off by the negative beliefs..

          1. Another good post. Since yesterday I have been reflecting on how a big part of every religion is a set of instructions on things one must do to be ‘good’, or become better. Buddhism is a good example. Adherence to ALL the points of the 8-Fold Path are considered essential if one wants to achieve Nirvana. Although some schools have departed from this, here is the basic teaching:
            “In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration…I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death…Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers…”
            —Nagara Sutta

            Buddhism is a complete prescription of how to live, and says one cannot achieve Nirvana with doing it ALL.
            every religion has some such prescription. Of course such a thing misses A LOT of withholds!

            1. Need I point out the amazing parallel with Scientology? In order to proceed to higher levels, especially the “OT Grades”, one must have his/her “Ethics in”, ie, “live right” or one won’t make it.

            2. Dear Valkov…. thank you for your friendship.
              I wont be commenting here any more. When ever you think of Paradise drop by and if I am not here please leave a note, I could be out gallivanting among the stars. Very best with great affection. Elizabeth

            3. This, from Buddhanet.net, is a different take on the meaning of nirvana. It really turns the conventional wisdom of the meaning of the word on its head. I thought you would like it:

              irvana literally means “unbound’ as in “Mind like fire unbound”.

              This beautiful image is of a flame burning by itself.

              Just the flame, not something burning and giving off a flame.

              Picture a flame burning on a wick or stick, it seems to hover around or just above the thing burning. The flame seems to be independent of the thing burning but it clings to the stick and is bound to it. This sense of the flame being unbound has often been misunderstood to mean the flame is extinguished or blown out. This is completely opposite to the meaning of the symbol. The flame “burns” and gives light but is no longer bound to any combustible material. The flame is not blown out – the clinging and the clung to is extinguished. The flame of our true nature, which is awakening, burns independently. Ultimately Nirvana is beyond conception and intellectual understanding. Full understanding only comes through direct experience of this “state’ which is beyond the limitations and definitions of space and time.”

            4. 🙂 yes.. Infinite is not comprehendible, since it contains nothing yet it is full, yes the fire is burning independently…. no connection, just alone… [alone has no meaning]
              there is before… but that is not in ”time -or in space” one can only understand this when leaves all behind.. thank you for knowing…you have given gift, you have honored us..

            5. Valkov, that’s wonderful data.

              Btw, have you been studying a lot in recent weeks or months or whatever? Because you seem to have been picking up more and more knowledge. Or maybe you got some more auditing?

              I love it that you can see the depth and value in LRH’s words and in the Scn materials, and can align them conceptually with other paths – and show how much they do align.

              One definite difference seems to be in the Nirvana vs. the eternal soul/thetan – unless the thetan, which is in “a very, very small amount of mass” per LRH, can in fact become free from that mass and “burn free” as with the flame simile. If that’s the idea, there may be no difference.

              What confuses me is when I hear “the Buddha was silent” on the subject of soul – and in the next breath, or line: “the Buddha taught a no-soul doctrine.” But that may only mean that he left the subject out entirely in the doctrine and thus “no soul” simply because the subject is left out. Your ideas on this?

            6. I may research it some. The difficulty is, what is the word in Buddha’s original language, which is translated as “soul”? I think I touched on this in an earlier post in that thread with George, on Marty’s. “Soul” as I understand it, is the interface between spirit and matter. It is perhaps the animating principle. This concept exists in Christian theology and in Gnostic writings also. I’m sure it exists in Hinduism also. I’ve never really investigated it though. Perhaps ‘atman’ translates as ‘soul’? Atman is kind of an interface between ‘brahma’ which is a very abstract principle perhaps similar to ‘static’, and matter. Buddha was an iconoclast, as I see him, trying to put a correction in on Hindu society, which had reified ‘brahma’ and personalized the idea of brahma. Buddha needed to get his message through the existing cultural fixed ideas of his time and place and that’s how he chose to go about it, directly attacking one of the major sacred cows of his time and place – the concretization or reification of the term ‘atman’. Atman had been made into a ‘thing’, he was trying to dispel that notion.
              To get this notion across, I refer to Nicolai Berdyaev. In “Spirit and Reality”, he wrote this:
              Spirit and Reality (1946)

              “Spirit is never an object; nor a spiritual reality an objective one.
              Spirit is never an object; nor a spiritual reality an objective one. In the so-called objective world there’s no such nature, thing, or objective reality as spirit. Hence it is easy to deny the reality of spirit. God is spirit because he is not object, because he is subject.
              p. 10
              Spirit, like flame, like freedom, like creativeness, is opposed to any social stagnation or any lifeless tradition. In terms of Kantian philosophy — terms which I consider erroneous and confusing — spirit appears as a thing in itself and objectification as a phenomenon. Another and truer definition would be, spirit is freedom and objectification is nature (not in the romantic sense). Objectification has two aspects: on the one hand it denotes the fallen, divided and servile world, in which the existential subjects, the personalities, are materialized. On the other it comprehends the agency of the personal subject, of spirit tending to reinforce ties and communications in this fallen world. Hence objectification is related to the problem of culture, and in this consists the whole complexity of the problem.
              In objectification there are no primal realities, but only symbols. The objective spirit is merely a symbolism of spirit. Spirit is realistic while cultural and social life are symbolical.”

              I think Berdyaev had an instinctive or intuitive grasp of the Know to Mystery scale. He saw the objective world and the ‘things’ in it, as Symbols at best. It’s a little Platonic perhaps?

              If the translation of Nirvana I posted from Buddhanet is correct, it is referring to all this – that ‘spirit’ is always subject, cause. The true cycle of action is Create-create-create-create. Berdyaev refers to this as “God”, but clearly not in the sense of the Big Father In The Sky, which figure is a reification, a kind of ‘anthromorphization’ of the abstract creative principle.

              I guess I need to do a search of the origins of the idea of ‘soul’. LRH wasn’t too specific about it, and seem to mean several gradations of thetan, soul, etc. The Buddhist ideas of a scale of bodies from subtle to gross, fine to dense seems to fit in there somewhere. I haven’t looked much into 8-80, tsk tsk. I’m really more of a dilettante than you might think. Nowadays it’s the Internet that makes me able to sound knowledgeable because it is easy to find things if you kinda know what you’re searching for. The conversations with George really stimulated me to research more.

              LRH talked some about Lambda, but he didn’t go into it that much because he was so fixed on tracking down and releasing what he saw as the very basic spark of life, which he termed the ‘thetan’. So there was a lot he could have researched, if he’d had the time. But there is a lot in his lectures, the Congresses and ACCs that he casually tosses out and ties together. Those lectures are apparently the ‘research track’ so he veers off this way and that sometimes. I recommend the 4th London ACC of 1955 for a lot of comprehensive data. I’m sure the lectures were issued on cassette but were called something else. I don’t know what the set was called before; (actually I think maybe it or part of it was issued on cassette as “The First Postulate” series of lectures). It covers the Expanded Know to Mystery Scale, Native State, the first 4 postulates, and a whole lot more. Just about all the basic concepts and tools are in those lectures.
              Well I’ve wandered far from “soul”. A much discredited and misunderstood word that perhaps needs to be revisited!

            7. To sum it all up, I think if you listen to even half the lectures of the 4th London ACC all will be clarified for you. No kidding!
              It’s all about the “first postulate” (and the 2nd, 3rd and 4th ones too) and you will see how it all develops from Native State down through the whole Know to Mystery Scale. Ties right in with Buddhism, Elizabeth’s experiences and cogs, the whole shebang. 🙂

              As for “who”? Well, “YOU”.

            8. Tell Marildi… there is no soul… because that word indicates separation, singular and being somebody. Infinite.. is even indicator, therefore there are no words to describe…. even IS not right since it again indicates.

            9. E., then who or what is having the experience, when the experience occurs? And who/what knows about tells others about paradise? 🙂

            10. That last sentence should have read: And who/what knows about AND tells others about “paradise”?

            11. Yes, the soul is a separation. It is what makes us individuals. But what would we do instead?

              “Who would mouse and who would lion, and who would be the tamer? And who would hear directions clear, from the unnameable namer”?

              That’s from a song by the Incredible String Band.

              Applied to you maybe it would say, “Who would gnome and who would elf, and who would be the gardner? And who would sail the sunset’s tail with spirit as her partner?”

            12. “Who would gnome and who would elf, and who would be the gardner? And who would sail the sunset’s tail with spirit as her partner?” Great cover Valkov!

            13. Please I would like that song in the blog.” Who would gnome and who would elf, and who would be the gardener? And who would sail the sunset’s tail with spirit as her partner?”
              That said it all. 🙂 only the one who is experiencing can recognise the same in others. cant be any other way. 🙂

            14. Here Elizabeh, is the whole epic song. It’s called “A Very Cellular Song.” The ‘good part’ starts about 3 1/2 minutes in…..

              Winter was cold and the clothing was thin
              But the gentle shepherd calls the tune
              Oh dear mother what shall I do
              First please your eyes and then your ears Jenny
              Exchanging love tokens say goodnight

              Lay down my dear sister
              Won’t you lay and take your rest
              Won’t you lay your head upon your saviours breast
              And I love you but Jesus loves you the best
              And I bid you goodnight, goodnight, goodnight,
              And I bid you goodnight, goodnight, goodnight.
              One of these mornings bright and early and fine.
              Goodnight, goodnight
              Not a cricket not a spirit going to shout me on
              Goodnight, goodnight
              I go walking in the valley of the shadow of death
              sponsored links

              Goodnight, goodnight
              And his rod and his staff shall comfort me
              Goodnight, goodnight
              Oh John the wine he saw the sign
              Goodnight, goodnight
              Oh John say I seen a number of signs
              Goodnight, goodnight
              Tell A for the ark that wonderful boat
              Goodnight, goodnight
              You know they built it on the land getting water to float
              Goodnight, goodnight
              Tell B for the beast at the ending of the wood
              Goodnight, goodnight
              You know it ate all the children when they wouldn’t be good
              Goodnight, goodnight
              I remember quite well, I remember quite well
              Goodnight, goodnight
              I was walking in Jerusalem just like John
              Goodnight, goodnight, goodnight.

              Who would lose and who would bruise
              Or who would live quite prettily?
              And who would love what comes along
              And fill the air with joyous song

              Who would go and who would come
              Or who would simply linger
              And who would hide behind your chair
              And steal your crystallised ginger

              Nebulous nearnesses cry to me
              At this timeless moment
              Someone dear to me wants me near, makes me high
              I can hear vibrations fly
              Through mangoes, pomegranates and planes
              All the same
              When it reaches me and teaches me
              To sigh

              Who would mouse and who would lion
              Or who would be the tamer
              And who would hear directions clear
              From the unnameable namer

              Who would skip and who would plod
              Or who would lie quite stilly
              And who would ride backwards on a giraffe
              Stopping every so often to laugh

              Amoebas are very small

              Oh ah ee oo there’s absolutely no strife
              living the timeless life
              I don’t need a wife
              living the timeless life
              If I need a friend I just give a wriggle
              Split right down the middle
              And when I look there’s two of me
              Both as handsome as can be
              Oh here we go slithering, here we go slithering and squelching on
              Oh here we go slithering, here we go slithering and squelching on
              Oh ah ee oo there’s absolutely no strife
              living the timeless life

              Black hair brown hair feather and scale
              Seed and stamen and all unnamed lives that live
              Turn your quivering nerves in my direction
              Turn your quivering nerves in my direction
              Feel the energy projection of my cells
              Wishes you well.

              May the long time sun shine upon you
              All love surround you
              And the pure light within you
              Guide you all the way on.

    2. Bert Schippers: And then the sharing of that secret! Just another guilt trip for everyone who isn’t OT8, making every non-essential act in day-to-day life a fucking overt! I mean, unless you are sleeping, eating or working (maybe not even that), you are wasting your brief breath chance in eternity! God forbid that you watch a movie or have sex! Fuck that shit.”

      Right on the spot !! Now I understand everything!! that’s the way the success stories are handled, that’s the reason for exploiting it. Thank you!!

      1. For these success stories to have the slightest value one should have to wait at least a month before writing them. So as to exercise the abilities achieved in real life.

        To write these seconds after finishing a course or counselling is nonsense.

        “My space is big and clean, my postulates stick. My income is in affluence and my job efficiency has reach power. I prevent car accidents by intention. And I find free parking lots now. My future is bright.”
        For how long? And how? Only a delusional koolaider buys this without evidence.

        1. Exactly so. Success stories written as a requirement minutes after completion of an action is bullshit. It has no worth even as anecdotal evidence since it makes it auto-suspect.

        2. Anette wrote:

          For these success stories to have the slightest value one should have to wait at least a month before writing them. So as to exercise the abilities achieved in real life.

          Totally agreed. Cognitions are cheap.

          Religious Ecstasy is a thing. It even has its own wikipedia entry:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ecstasy

          That article is extremely interesting as a broader context for a greater understanding of Scientology auditing.

          “Ecstatic religions” have been criticized throughout history as based on cheap thrills and nothing more.

          Changing yourself into the person your cognition requires is the extremely difficult part of any spiritual practice and is the real work that any religion would emphasize if it really wanted to make “Clears” and “OTs”. But that is not part of Scientology.

          With instant Success Stories, ending sessions on cognitions as the “end phenomenon”, etc. Scientology is in the cognition business and might as well be selling hits on a crack pipe, or nitrous oxide puffers.

          I have cognitions all the time in Buddhist meditation.

          But becoming the guy that those cognitions require?

          Forget it. Cognitions don’t even help with that process, and if they become the emphasis as they are in Scientology, can even act as distractions to the process of becoming a better person.

          Great point, Anette.

          Alanzo

          1. Reminds me of the Hillel story, in which he was asked to sum up the wisdom of the Torah in a few words, and he replied, “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; now go and study.”
            2,100 years later, Jacob Needleman writes his book on the subject, titled “Why Can’t We Be Good?” I think you’d like that book, Al. It is all about conscience, thorny ethical issues, and the apparent difficulty people have living up to their ideals.

        3. Cognitions in auditing are the by-product of cognitive consonance after keeping the pc in a state of extended cognitive dissonance during the auditing process.

          Cognitions in Scn auditing are a sense of relief and “data alignment” after undergoing the discomfort and dissonance created while under tight control in the auditing session.

          This is why I say that Scientology just begets more scientology. Deep down, you generally know what cog you are supposed to have to make the process stop. And you know the process will not stop until you have the right cognition.

          This has nothing to do with spiritual freedom, gaining the spiritual lessons you need, or becoming a better person.

          It has to do with thinking and assimilating the right thoughts and becoming more “in valence” as a Scientologist.

          Becoming a better person is not part of the process, although some scientologists genuinely try in the beginning. After a while though, they get so much admiration and status from having the right cogs and writing the right success stories at “higher and higher” levels of social status that they realize to reach Total Freedom, becoming a better person is not required.

          It’s such a relief!

          Alanzo

          1. I agree that the cognitions, the excitement, the ecstasy is worth just that. And this is why I find it valuable to now look back and take an honest look at what that a specific action actually left as real and lasting gain. I believe few people (in or out of Scientology) does that to any great extent.

            1. Yes. The post-scientology Internet environment has been one of battle and contention for the most part.

              You are one of the first people to take the time (and have the space) for true and constructive reflection on having been a Scientologist, and how to positively incorporate those experiences into your post-Scientology life.

              Your constructive and positive approach to this is extremely valuable for people, Geir.

              At least it has been for me.

              Alanzo

          2. How is that any different from, say, Buddhism which features Right Speech, Right Livelihood, and the other parts of the Eight-Fold Path? Or actually, any religion’s prescriptions for correct living?

            I don’t entirely agree with your summation about ‘cognitions’, because people have cognitions in psychotherapy and even in daily living. There is something else going on too, in addition to what you’ve mentioned.

        4. Anette….. I have found that to gains ”things” is not the point while on is on the path of exploring-spiritual realities, the gains are and were how one feels, the viewpoints change with every cognitions and that brings permanency.

        5. In my view: when it is so in ‘real life’, the following happened.
          The person was already doing some things in his/her job e.g.
          in the case of affluence. Some barriers (creations of some thoughts like my ‘staff is not fast’ etc. get removed during auditing.
          That is, the barriers which ‘invalidated’ affluence now make it
          possible to happen. (the person actually is already creating it,
          giving it a ‘be’ingness. As the person’s awareness shifted, so
          are changing his/her actions.
          ‘how’? by ‘following’ that shift of awareness and acting out of
          it, not allowing ‘thoughts’ to divert the person from that.
          ‘how long’? until the person gives value to that ‘shift’ and is
          acting in harmony with that.

          In my view, ‘shifts’ show/give’ possibilities by raising awareness.
          Now this person is fully aware e.g. of affluence. It is up to each
          person what actions will follow.

          Other persons may ‘invalidate’ e.g. affluence simply by not being
          yet aware of this possibility, vibration and the actions there. That is, they are not yet able to validate it, as it is not yet ‘real’ to them.

          1. i gave in my example auditing…in my view, in any way when a ‘shift’ of awareness happens and one gives credit/value to it,
            the result is going to be the above…proofs of it are in life…

    3. It was a 24h “Guilt trip” to freedom. I was stressed out, always on the run to the next spiritual level.

      Now I can allow myself to enjoy everyday life. Whatever pleases me I do. Guilt free living. I enjoy doing nothing too. Relaxing. Studying. Reading books from different(!) authors. I have no Masters expecting me to do things. There’s no us versus them. People (yes, Wogs!) interests me. I’m curious to find out what makes them tick. Where they come from, their passions in life. I do not need auditing to achieve happiness. I’m deeply connected to nature. I live in the here and now with my soulmate. We’re on an adventurous ride. We laugh. We cry. We live. That’s what it’s all about.

      1. Plus 10 to your post Anette. This is what I found also with my hubby, after scientology and it continues even now.

    4. Now that’s what I call a good critique 🙂

      Yes – the guilt trip on anyone not OT 8 is clear as day. Good point. The general “air” of the success story is in line with every other rubber stamp success story in Scientology – yup. This is why I don’t put much trust in such anecdotal evidence to “prove” the workability of Scientology. It is always suspect – pumped up by kool aid and conforming to the Scientology requirements.

  14. Thanks for posting this. I have written many success stories in my travels across the bridge to total freedom. I was deluded and hypnotized by Hubbard and his tech. I am certain if I were to read any of the many success stories I had written now in present time I would have some seriously good laughs.

    I wanted it to be the way you wrote and convinced myself that is how it was but in reality things were not what they seemed at the time. I am a much better person now than I ever was as a Scientologist and life is good and things are real rather than delusional or make believe.

    1. The success stories are filtered, nothing concrete, very emotional and motivational, so then everyone convinces himself creating expectation on what reality must be. That’s the same reason why delusional expectations leads people to being disappointed and with strong cognitive dissonance, which luckily later may get them out.

  15. Hi Geir, what I think would be most complete would be for you to insert, after each statement in your success story, what your current perspective is, in relation to that statement.
    We all have had growth, changes and revelations that make our earlier views and statements look “naive” by comparison; it’s all part of the journey, and part of us, despite the effort to deny the earlier passages through segmenting periods of our lives as though these were no longer ours.
    I think that we should keep in mind when we’re tempted to ridicule or otherwise demean others for their current mentalities, that we’ve all had our own “missteps”, that those “missteps” were part of the journey that led us to where we are now, and accept them as such, let go of any tendency to punish ourselves for our histories, and thus be able to let go of any tendency to demean others merely for currently being mid a passage that we’ve already been through; it’s all just part of the journey 🙂

  16. Geir, thanks for sharing with us a bit more than one minute of your existence.

    Your first two paragraphs are remarkably similar to what I wrote after going clear on grades auditing. I think every pc has such a turning point, and probably at an early stage, otherwise they would not persist with the bridge. But it’s hard to believe that anyone could get this kind of life change repeatedly up to the supposed top level.

    The last four paragraphs are the stuff we all had to write before being allowed to route out – an advertising message to folks lower down the bridge, thanks to LRH and crew, even an apologetic thanks for all the sec checking. That phrase “I will make up for” strikes a sinister chord, remembering how AO public were made to feel guilty about LRH’s life of self-sacrifice, and morally blackmailed into giving time, money and anything else we had.

    However, your paragraph about being stripped of must-haves looks to me like a real win, and a major one. That’s like what happens in TROM: the importance of whatever is being viewed, musts or must-nots, desires or aversions, dwindles to zero. In other words, “So what?”

    “.. love life” …”respect and admiration for other people” They show in your blogs. But you alone know whether they came from OT VIII or whether you already had them.

  17. the cognition has given you a glimpse into Paradise, but it was only a glimpse and as you said
    “Let me share a secret with you: If you are not OT VIII; If you had just one minute of my existence, just one minute, you would spend every hour awake to get yourself to OT VIII.: “”
    I have solo audited since 76 in order to have that Paradise permanent and I have not wasted my life doing just that. Permanent Paradise , about a million cognition will get one there.
    Here is a win I have posted some years back;

    While exploring, the self-created MEST universe the believes of solidity somehow the SELF, the ME, the ”I”, the MINE, The BEING the “SINGULAR” who had all the considerations of a human and made me believe I was one, sort of disappeared and that self-created universe with it.

    The created boundaries, wall, barriers, small compartments which are the believes causes the segregation melted vanished I have become one in harmony with the Universes.

    While that has happened in sessions little by little, the same time the Physical Universe itself have lost its awesome magnitude and from under all that rubble once forgotten deeply buried spiritual have risen who can’t be described with words easy.

    INTANGIBLE, INFINITE ONE WITH ALL, therefore “In NOW” there is no “I” “SELF” “ME” “BEING” MINE” and no such a thing as ” LIFE” “DEATH” “START” or “END” “INSIDE” “OUTSIDE” or “EXTERIOR” or thousands other words and expressions which describes the human state by agreement, all have disappeared, everything has been erased which have segregated, insulated a state known to be called alone, This is not just the win, but it is a STATE has been reclaimed as in NOW.
    The technology, Auditing works. A man, any human, does not possess such a magnitude of power to destroy, stop its progress its continuity.
    …Forever grateful…. Thanks for posting your great win.

      1. Dexter the e-meter no longer register mass, no matter what questions asked or me indicating anything at all.. Nothing that has been like that for 2 years.. If mass comes into the space as it enters instantly as-isad and cognitions replace mass. This state have a name but it has no meaning.. or value-importance, because by the time one has arrived in Paradise those considerations or any other considerations are meaningless.. lost their meaning 🙂
        Thanks for the ack… !! 🙂

  18. Looking for a little more comment of your own here on how the viewpoint(s) has changed, Geir.

  19. What really fascinated me was how the birds were singing more in harmony. While I suppose this statement could easily be dismissed as an euphomism, I would nevertheless invite Geir to elaborate 🙂

    1. Hey! Stein Halvorsen 😀

      Well – it was (and often still is) the feeling of life being like it was when I was a child. I Felt more, Noticed more and was generally living more in the moment. That ability to be more Here & Now got a boost on OT 8. I still have that whenever I decide to.

  20. Here is a summary of my current views on this success story from 2006, paragraph by paragraph:

    I never imagined that there could be so much gain available in such a short amount of time. There are no words to describe the massive amount of gain on this level.

    Written just hours after I completed OT 8 – a long sought goal that was finally reached after I had audited 4-6 sessions per day on OT 7 for 3,5 years straight. The strict regimen and the stressfull security had culminated in this level aboard the luxury cruise ship Freewinds sailing among the Caribbean islands. This paragraph is not very meaningful blah-blah that represent a bunch of emotions at the time.

    My viewpoint is dramatically different. Everything has shifted. People around me are brighter, the sky is clearer and the birds sing more in harmony.

    I really did get to live more in the moment after this level. The paragraph represent the feeling of life being like it was when I was a child. I felt more, noticed more and was generally living more in the moment. That ability to be more Here & Now got a boost on OT 8. I still have that whenever I decide to.

    Barriers are removed from me being Tone 40. My creative thrust and ability has increased immensely.

    Scientologeese for “I feel damn good”.

    I am stripped of must-haves. I don’t need to be in action. I don’t need to be productive. This makes me free to be more in action and more productive. I do not need to perceive, neither do I need to know. I can simply and freely perceive and know.

    Apart from the strange and unfalsifiable “I can simply and freely perceive and know”, this paragraph harbors the real and lasting gain from OT 8: I was no longer stuck in shame, blame and regret. I was actually very free of past pondering.

    I have never experienced such a boost on the tone scale, in awareness and in productivity.

    Blah-blah. Yes, I felt great. That I could say I got a boost in productivity only hours after completing OT 8 is pure BS.

    I love life. My love for others is profound. My respect and admiration for other people is deep and sincere.

    I felt great and I felt real love for others. Still feel real love for others 🙂 Did so before OT 8, but doing that level improved it.

    Let me share a secret with you: If you are not OT VIII; If you had just one minute of my existence, just one minute, you would spend every hour awake to get yourself to OT VIII.

    *Cringe* Giving you all a good round of guilt.

    To the crew of the Freewinds: You are an amazing team, spearheading existence itself by making sure the first OT level is available to all. The eligibility was the most thorough I have seen. Since withholds makes a being not have, it also makes him not have gains. The OT VIII eligibility is indeed needed to make it possible for me to have such massive gain.

    To RTC: You set the standard for what a standard should be. By meticulously ensuring the tech is standard and applied to the letter, you safeguard the future for all.

    To LRH: There are no words invented to describe the respect and admiration I have for you. This I will make up for in action. I will not let you down.

    The last three paragraphs were required, really. The speech wouldn’t be approved without this. I remember having to add the applause for the crew as I had forgotten that. Someone pointed it out and I added it. I really did like the service, but to add it to the OT 8 win seemed out of place. It’s odd that I got away with not applauding COB (David Miscavige) directly.

    So, there it is – my view at the time and my current view on this.

    More on OT 8 here.

    1. Seems obvious you had some nice gains, Geir, and it is appropriate that this be accepted and acknowledged by yourself, primarily.

      I simply waste no time with those who compulsively deny any value at all anywhere in the Scientology experience. These people need to take a step back and allow us the right to experience what we experience for ourselves.

      The success story is overlaid with the obligatory overstated kudos to the representatives of the Scientology environment (which is not to say that those who well-meaningly contributed to create that opportunity for you should not be recognized or acknowledged).

      It is also overlaid with a certain aura of enforced/indoctrinated hyperbole that is the way of any cult.

      All in all, I think your success story, augmented with your current views, demonstrates some of the good, the bad, the false and the true, as it turned out to be for you, and it allows the reader to make his own judgements, and that’s all one could or should ask.

      Love, Dex

    2. “*Cringe* Giving you all a good round of guilt.”

      I hear you and know a few comments have been directed toward this on this thread, however, that is not what I understand when I read, ” Let me share a secret with you: If you are not OT VIII; If you had just one minute of my existence, just one minute, you would spend every hour awake to get yourself to OT VIII. ”

      Sometimes we just have an experience that we want to share. Like when my kids holler, “look at this YouTube video.” It’s why I sometimes snap photos with my phone of sunrises and sunsets. I just feel “wow” and want others to see it, not to make them feel guilty for not having been there. I didn’t feel guilty when I read your success, I felt more like “motivated.” But hey, what do I know?

    3. My viewpoint is dramatically different. Everything has shifted. People around me are brighter, the sky is clearer and the birds sing more in harmony.

      I really did get to live more in the moment after this level. The paragraph represent the feeling of life being like it was when I was a child. I felt more, noticed more and was generally living more in the moment. That ability to be more Here & Now got a boost on OT 8. I still have that whenever I decide to.

      ————————————–

      Have you ever heard the John McMaster Tapes on the Power Processes? I think they provide a lot of perspective about what in scientology specifically, and other approaches more generally, is “workable” vs what isn’t.

      In particular he mentions that the “what is/what isn’t” process is run to a similar result and (wildly paraphrasing him) largely for the reason that mentally sorting out confusions (not necessarily consciously recognized) over “what is” from “what isn’t” eliminates mental obstructions to being present and observing.

      I strongly suspect that whenever an individual has had a similar experience to that which you describe then in some fashion they may have experienced a cognition of the “what is/what isn’t”. That interpretation does seem to be in part consistent with your own description of how you experienced the result of VIII.

      Even for those who are “completely over” scientology tech, I do recommend listening to the McMaster tapes. They present some vary helpful ideas.

      1. Do you have a link where John’s lectures are available?

        The original “good idea” pitched by Scientology, the notion of a lay therapy based on science that helps the common human live a better life, is good.

        It’s a shame Scientology failed that aim so utterly.

        A lay therapy is great if it leaves cases of real mental illness to the professionals. Taxi drivers don’t need to hold therapy sessions with a person who is Bi-Polar or Psychotic.

        EVERYONE needs therapy IMHO. But it’s not practical for people to spend a hundred bucks an hour for it. A pro-active lay therapy that uses co-auditing makes sense to me.

        I gave John a listen a few years ago to see if he came up with anything that wasn’t batshit. He seemed to go against Hubbard’s selfish agenda.

        Still, even with the first Clear, the tech did not deliver McMaster from direct overwhelm. Hubbard crushed McMaster’s will to such a degree that he died an alcoholic.

        Sad. He seemed like a kind man who really wanted to help his world. Like so many others Hubbard squished like bugs.

        Even though much of Scientology is evil mind control, I think McMaster had the best and most helpful notions to come out of the deeply tainted subject.

  21. When you wrote this you were censored from discussing details about your case, or actual ot abilities

    Wrte a follow up success story now that is uncut

    For example did you actually gain any amount of the abilities lrh promotes in lectures like exterior ot perceptions or godlike control of postulates, controlling mest or telepathy, telekinesis, etc.

    To me your biggest gain was talking responsibility of bringing out the truth which will lead to reform in the church

  22. I believe there was a typo in Elizabeth’s post, “there is no soul”; it should have read, “with the exceptions of James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Ray Charles, John Coltrane and a few others, there is no soul”. 🙂

    1. Hey Dex, don’t try to lighten things up!

      Kidding – that was hilarious. 😀

      On the subject of Success Stories – of the UNsolicited type – let me give you a plug.

      First, as an R-factor for others, Paul Adams has on the internet something he calls “PaulsRobot modules,” where a person can get free “robot auditing” any time – and Dexter is one of three who do the “voicing.”

      One day I decided to check it out just to see what auditing with a “robot” would be like. When the session started, I thought “Well, might as well go ahead and be a real pc and do the process.” So I did!

      The following was the “Success Story” I originated as a post on David St. Lawrence’s forum – on the thread of a topic started by Paul titled “Dex Gelfand goes Cyborg.”

      Here’s what I wrote:

      “Dexter! Thank you for the session!! It was g-r-e-a-t. I laughed and cried. I even laughed when you gave the commands because I FELT your presence and ARC – in spite of the internet vias!

      “I want you to know I had a very big win. Resolved something that I have been working on a long time – resolved at least to the degree that I know where to go back now and get a bit more data that I may need, and from there continue to expand in this new knowledge and awareness. Which of course will translate to a new ‘livingness’ for myself and some others too, I trust. I am V-V-G-I’s.

      “Sincerely, I love you guys for doing what you’re doing to assist anybody and everybody. You and Paul and David, and the others here too, for the parts you’re all playing.”
      .

      And then on a following comment, I wrote, “And your new nickname is hilarious – RoboDex.”

      To which, you replied: “Resistance is futile 😀 ”

      You are funny! 🙂

      1. and don’t forget, when you do Self-analysis lists, it’s not slef-auditing, you are actually being audited by the author…..
        Word.

  23. This notion that gains or “wins” in Scientology are so fragile that they can be successfully “invalidated” seems odd to me. Wins that are transient and momentary at the very end of an action may very well be fragile – like the wins we see in the usual success stories written at the peak of ecstasy when a person has just completed some auditing. But wins or gains that have real merit lasts and are in my experience impervious to invalidation. This is why I find it interesting to pull out my very top win from Scientology and put it out there for anyone to comment on (critique, invalidate, validate, whatever). Because the real gains I had can’t be “talked down” in a discussion. The BS stuff in the success story would have been “invalidateable” at the moment it was written. I could have been upset if someone poked at my ecstasy at the moment. But the real stuff, the lasting and measurable gains… nah, it stays nomatter.

    1. Seems like the real, lasting gains were being used to give reality to a Scientology worldview which eventually succumbs to invalidation 🙂

      1. true gains never succumb to invalidations.. only new mass moves in and COVERS UP THE GAINS.. so it seems the gain is no longer there. Not enough barriers were removed yet to keep that gain as when it was established.

    2. I mean, the purpose of much of his Scn ethics and SP tech was to protect the Scientology bubble.

      1. “I mean, the purpose of much of his Scn ethics and SP tech was to protect the Scientology bubble.”

        Yup. His stated expansion policy was to expand this bubble to assimilate the rest of Earth, then move onto other planets. No matter the power and reach of extant religions, this has never been achieved. My opinion is this and many similar expansion goals cannot be achieved for reasons as basic as why lead cannot be changed into gold.

        1. Yeah man, and that need for expansión, coupled with the weaknesses in Scientology, gave rise to the sea org and all that supporting shit .

      2. I do have the impression he kinda ‘bent’ the Ethics and SP tech to serve his own ends as he saw them, at least part of which was to stay in control of his creation, the CoS, as much as possible.

        1. “I do have the impression he kinda ‘bent’ the Ethics and SP tech to serve his own ends as he saw them, at least part of which was to stay in control of his creation, the CoS, as much as possible.”

          It’s a good point Valkov. And I think like governments, Scientology was never under control, except to the degree that a rodeo us under control. Hubbard promoted admin tech as that tech which would put organizations under control but it really became micromanaging even if at a distance. Flag Command Bureaux’s Program Chiefs bombarded the orgs around the world with constant streams of orders based upon statistics and sent them invoices for all the money they owed for being managed. This never seemed to get the desired effect. I think that was a bust.

          1. Personally I think the more decentralized model that was still operating around 1970 was working pretty well. Then LRH moved in with the Sea Org to make the churches more pristinely “orthodox and catholic”. That snowballed into the aberration we have now. I still wonder if it wasn’t intended to make sure the toothpaste got fully squeezed out of the tube…..
            There’s really no good way, to my mind, to account for 1982. I guess I would have to study the chronological PLs and all that to even come close to understanding LRH’s thinking about it all. And I’m not that motivated. I’ll let others do that part. Marty’s next book might shed more light on the history.

          2. Micromanaging at a distance is the worst kind of micromanaging. Isn’t that the very definition of “Dev-T”? Although I have rd that at times S.O. missions were “spot on” and helpful, and at other times they were totally off the wall. The more decentralized Field Auditor-Mission model was better I think.

            1. Yes, they had a sterling reputation according to themselves, then they sent the invoice for the mission. Missions and orgs had no say in the matter and working in FCB Treasury in circa 1990, they had invoiced millions in mission expenses, which of course they never collected. I wasn’t privy to how this went 20 years before . . .

    3. I mean reading this was a big win for me because this gigantic pile of bullshit started taking shape, and seems we can now see more clearly why and how those grueling ethics rules and enforcement army became necessary and Scientology became a deadly serious activity

        1. Thanks! Don’t you think that when the person once got aware of
          whatever come up as a ‘win’, there is the possibility now to create
          that illusion on, do for it, so that it would get realized in life?

    4. ‘wins or gains that have real merit lasts’. Who gives ‘merit’ (value)
      to this or that which then ‘will be’ permanent while others ‘will’ not
      ‘be’ (when there is evidence and proof of them in one’s life in
      the moment of the win).

    5. Beautiful Geir. Ron spoke often about “being in the quicksand.”
      When you finally get out of that stuff, (ignorance), and stand on the solid rock of one’s own certainty, it is simplicity in itself to recognize the difference. 🙂

    6. THE WIN I HAVE POSTED about on hour ago that cognition was about 14 years back and FEAR has not returned since than. So Invalidation can not erase wins.. and that realization about FEAR was not after I left the church but 26 years after the attestation of OT7 but after a solo session.

        1. to live in the world where fear is on accepted reality is very different, this is not the same as the concept human has ”fearless” because that has a meaning usually connected with a concept of bravery or extreme “stupidity.” = some one who is without judgement.

            1. “posted for Gear because he put Mulan up..”

              And the rest of the time? I think he may have thought to put it up because you write about fear so much.

            2. “we had a discussion yesterday gear and I. read it, if you are in the mood, provoking a disagreement so you can fight. go for it.”

              If you feel outmatched then don’t fight. But don’t snap and growl as though you want to mix it up and then back away when your bluff is called. Isn’t this great fun?!

            3. “we had a discussion yesterday gear and I. read it, if you are in the mood, provoking a disagreement so you can fight. go for it.”

              You think that writing any sort of filthy claptrap on a blog where people read and write shouldn’t get a response? Should I sit here and be afraid of you? That’s what I see, you are about fear and domination and crying foul like the cowboy in the black hat on the old TV Western. You enjoy the sucker punch, then cry foul when have your broken beer bottle taken away? (I love the metaphor so much.) You like to criticize, so let it out!

            4. No, first YOU provoke. Then when things are going well enough and should be left alone, you start in with your needling – and keep escalating it until you again provoke.

              If you had a beef why didn’t you speak to that instead of what you did – inval inval inval. Now when you’re called on it, you claim to have a beef. This blog would be a lot more fun if you would knock off this kind of thing.

            5. “No, first YOU provoke.”

              Marildi, you don’t much like to be asked about Scientology successes, do you? Needling, hmmmm . . . You are right, I’ve ruined this blog. That is damned insensitive of me to needle.

            6. no one think on the term as ‘fear” you have saving, you have alar system, you have life insurance, you go to the doctor when something ails you just to find out” to be sure” seat belts in the car, lock on the dors and window, the key is not left in the car and the door is locked, unless there is a garage. you would not let your little girl wonder alone at night outside or even less in a bad neighborhood not likely you drink and drive at the same time. you have enrolee your kids into ”safe schools”. take vitamins and eat the’ ‘right food”? please dont tell me all the above is ”just sensible living..

            7. Yes I understand. You do not use health insurance, don’t worry whether your heater works in the winter, your front door is unlocked, and your key is in the ignition of your car with the windows rolled down. You are without fears that humanoids have.

        2. I would like to give more information on WINS… When in the session the person who had the session sees self doing something out of ordinary, that could be anything.. having that reality regained that “YES I HAVE DONE THAT” wow.. I was the most incredible artist-painter. With that realization that person has regained that ability, BUT here is the problem: the counter postulate and there had been many made in the past are still intact and of course the person cant paint or sing, or lift the body off the ground by intention alone.
          Counter intention are powerful and their power are those walls, barriers which are still intact.. and they hold strong till they are removed by confrontation.
          When O/W’s are moved off in sessions –erased the persons confidence and abilities are slowly returning.. Little by little.
          We have existed in this Universe and its extant is not comprehendible long as one has only reality on TIME.
          Few thousands of auditing hours, few hundred cognitions dont erase enough barriers and because of that persons dont realise what is yet to be understood in order to become free of MEST. We have abilities and when the beliefs are erased by confrontation these abilities are JUST THERE.. yours to enjoy.
          The ride is wild and wonderful and the hard work results are the inpouring cognitions.
          The knowledge gained by having hundreds of thousands cognition is again incomprehensible not because the HUMAN RACE IS STUPID…. no.. because of the belief and the beliefs are the barriers to see and understand differently.

          1. “BUT here is the problem: the counter postulate and there had been many made in the past are still intact and of course the person cant paint or sing, or lift the body off the ground by intention alone. Counter intention are powerful and their power are those walls, barriers which are still intact.. and they hold strong till they are removed by confrontation.”

            Is there any example of this? Because otherwise, this beautiful writing about the arts and super powers has no usefulness. It becomes a self-fulfilling, self-defeating tangle of justifications.

            1. Chris, just because it’s above your head doesn’t mean you have the right to invalidate it as much as you can.

            2. “Chris, just because it’s above your head doesn’t mean you have the right to invalidate it as much as you can.”

              Ok Blanche Dubois, my question is unfair? I must be wrong because I thought I was on the blog thread where the OP invited me to critique an OT VIII success story. Was that not right? I need to be quiet while being lectured to? You’re right. That is the Scientology Way.

            3. “that is your reality.”

              And your reality is to mouth a bunch of filthy language and take no claim or responsibility for it. You describe a world that is a negative place full of negative people and you cannot do anything wrong or offensive because the offense is solely in the universe of the offended person and yet you get offended simply by being queried about your OT fantasy? . . . that is the Scientology Way. You are a good Scientologist Elizabeth.

            4. 🙂 🙂 🙂 right you are… since you too solo audit and you have had the exact same cognition as GEIR just posted.. you said so your self!! that OT 8 win Fantasy … right I am on that, I take? well.. what can I say after that, that makes you also a good scientologist. and I think humans are not real humans just they think that they are. Every one on this planet is a brilliant powerful Entity.. 🙂 playing game being human.

            5. so you have no objection being a scientologist.. and having fantasies same as the rest of us who solo audit.? that is grand, simply grand.

            6. We’ve, I’ve been trying to explain who I am and where I’m coming from to you for a good while now and have failed. I cannot even begin to get you to go along with me. Without condescension, and like Geir’s success win where he wanted people to get his point of view for “even one minute” I want people to get my point of view, not because they need it, but because I want to share it. It is not superior, it is just really pleasant and if anyone could experience it at that moment, they would just really like it. And I’ve felt many times that you wanted the same thing. I just have trouble convincing you I know what you are talking about.

              It doesn’t matter to me that you believe what you do, that you write what you do, that your reality is what it is, I am glad for the different realities that you express. I just think it’s a mistake for you to push your ideas as the only way and to make claims that make me just want to say, “Show me.”

            7. Sorry, I missed that one and I apologise for that. We have been friends, just have been.. You have blown the trust I have placed in you.

            8. no. it was not a joke…. but of course you are working on your nice-sweet guy valance now the ”untrustworthy” is not the part of the new valance.. I understand.. I leave you with that. you can dazzle others but I dont buy that crap because I know what is lurking beneath. the ”nice”. so long..

            9. Elizabeth; You really are full of venom. I am so glad I did not go down that path of Solo auditing for 50 000 hours like you have done. To me, that seems like sure entrapment.

            10. obviously you have wasted lot of time in scientology your self since you are blind as bat.. you dont even question that I might be right! .. IT IS NOT HIM WHO IS THE PUPPET BUT YOU ARE.. he is playing you … so get off my case your awareness is in your balls. put this in your pipe and smoke it. dont ever ever contact me again. got that??? or you are too dense to understand even this much? go. laugh this off, and print it Elizabeth went off the rails…OHHH the lurkers will love you for it. fuck off!

            11. Ladies and gentlemen: Elizabeth Hamre has been auditing solo since the 70’s for more than 50 000 hours. And this is the result.

            12. Geir, this is not the result… but it shows that auditing not producing SAINTS but producing a Entity who will not lay down when intimidated in any way to any one when bullied. WE have done everything in this Universe our track is incredible long therefore our experiences are not countable and not imaginable by those who cant even recall what has happened when 5 year old. those of you who believe everything you read.. I cant do about that anything.. But those of you who read my post in my blog and read those realizations than you will understand me not as a MAD WOMAN” but one who knows the Universal knowledge. This here is for entertainment.. for passing time, and to keep my me in constant stimulation since outside of this life in Paradise is very quiet, some would call it even Saintly! 🙂

            13. ”MY BOY”’ lets straighten out something: NO SOLO AUDITOR EVER CALL COGNITIONS ”FANTASY” those of us who do solo audit we know what cognitions are and how they affect our own universes and in many occasion when one is PTS to some one close, that PTS person is audited on the problems ..ARCB’s and the relationship dramatically changes for the better without the other person being aware what has happened.. SO THOSE WHO HAVE COGNITIONS THEY KNOW that they are NOT FANTASY.. only a person would say something like that who do not have a clue what wins are and what cognitions are. And those of us who have those we never ever claim somebodies wins as ours. I might be stupid and havent a clue on many different things but I dont claim ”know it all” but I know what is solo auditing and what wins are … and you never solo audited in your life… Ask Geir. how could that Fantasy still be in affect? ask him to explain that.

            1. Ho hum, my man.Yes indeed, it rolleth off the tongue (the venom) bang on cue!! ….yawn… 🙂

            2. Eli Hambre is a 70s OT III and has been running her case on Solo Ruds ever since, not OT VII … all BS. And if this seems kookoo, the explanations will make your day … lol.

              * Not a troll post *

  24. Reading your OP, what is coming through is Pure just Pure…
    You write in a com ‘the feeling of life being when I was a child’…
    ‘I still have that whenever I decide to’

    Well, DECIDE to…! Why not make this decision continuous?

        1. Not at all.

          The OT 8 I did consisted of picking up any time a past life memory had come up earlier (in session or otherwise) and check with the meter to see whether that memory actually was mine or a BTs/Clusters. Since all BTs/Clusters presumably are gone (as is the EP of OT 7), one is left with the “garbage” of false memories. One gets to realize what one has not been (all those false memories), and very little of what one has been (since very, very few of the memories reads as mine) – thus one gets to be interested in the rest of that picture of what one really has been, then. It took me a few days of auditing to go through all past life memories this way.

          Now – what I Actually think happened is that I got to let go of the past wholesale and realize that actually nothing of the past Is Me. No need for the conjecture of BTs/Clusters to realize gains with OT 8. This is further detailed in my book – also the episode with Anette where this dawned on me, etc.

          1. “Now – what I Actually think happened is that I got to let go of the past wholesale and realize that actually nothing of the past Is Me.”

            That is so awesome! I think it may be like a certain Buddhist concept of the past I read about, if I understood it correctly. It’s the idea that an individual is always evolving and the past is always “gone.” Lifetime-to-lifetime isn’t any different, essentially, than year-to-year, or even day-to-day, or whatever. The person is the sum of all his thoughts, per the Buddha – and the thoughts keep changing. Anyway, maybe Valkov knows something about this idea.

            But you say there were a very, very few memories that you felt were really yours?

            1. Yes, just a couple. Looking at it now, it’s none (as you understand my real win from that level).

              And yes to all what you wrote 🙂

            2. The exact Buddha quote is this:

              “All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become.”

            3. I would rephrase that to:

              “All that we are is the result of what we think. The mind is everything. What we think we are.”

  25. Thanks, Marildi, for the kind words regarding the “RoboDex” application 🙂

    Regarding “there is no soul” (other than with James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Ray Charles, etc 🙂 ), I don’t disagree with the underlying concept, but with expressing it that way:

    The soul may be considered as one of perhaps infinite drops in the ocean of all-encompassing presence; but it exists nevertheless. And as to what is and isn’t “illusion”, that term implies some sort of falseness, and so it might be more accurate to use the term “creation”.

    “Illusion” suggests “not real”, but all the is created, therefore has existence, as that creation; and is not every “thing” a creation? I would say that all that is perceived is perceived as such because that is what and how it is being created as by the one perceiving. That happens also to be basic quantum theory.

    Everything is as “real” as we create and thus perceive it to be. If there is any falseness, it is in the pretense of not knowing (a choice to not be conscious of) how and what one creates what is then perceived.

    That’s my take of things, at least at this point 🙂

    Love, Dex

    1. Thanks, Dex. LRH’s use of the word “illusion” has definitely created a lot of confusion and argument, because all the definitions basically mean “not real” and it seems people lose sight of the fact that even the physical universe, per LRH, is an “illusion” – or, as you worded it, a “creation,” a created (and agreed-upon) reality.

      You wrote: “I would say that all that is perceived is perceived as such because that is what and how it is being created as by the one perceiving.”

      I read that and thought of the following from 8-8008, which I think you might appreciate if you aren’t already be familiar with it (emphasis in caps is mine):

      “‘Reality,’ then, is a delusion because it is one’s own illusion which has been disowned by one and is then received by one as being another thing. Only by shedding all responsibility for one’s own energy can one fall into this covert trap. If one is unwilling to be responsible for energy, he is capable of using energy and then not perceiving that he uses it. One who blames others continually can be discovered to effect most of the things for which he is blaming other people.

      “In such a way, an individual with the ‘very best MEST universe, Mark 10,000 ears’ takes no responsibility for HAVING IMPLANTED THE SENSATION OF SOUND IN ORDER TO RECEIVE THE SENSATION OF SOUND. A preclear as he comes up the tone-scale more and more often catches himself doing this, and even though he does not know the principles involved (for no preclear has to be educated in Scientology to receive benefit from it), he recognizes that even in the case of a loud crash, his continuation of association from his environment permits him to perceive with others that a crash has taken place of objects, which he with others continuously recreates solidly, and that he must actually cause for his own perception the sound of the crash.”

      Pretty cool, huh? 😉

      1. Oh, and as for what you wrote here: “The soul may be considered as one of perhaps infinite drops in the ocean of all-encompassing presence; but it exists nevertheless”…

        You are my new soul-mate! 😀

      2. Yes, cool, Marildi 🙂 The Scientology writings of the early 1950’s resonate with me far better than the bulk of the later materials, which frequently directly opposed the original principles, for example “abandon the use of force” as in the Phoenix Lectures in 1951 or so, and then in the 1960’s, KSW- “Hammer out of Existence”, “Make the penalties too gruesome to confront”, “Fair Game Policy”, “Command Intention”, the “Rehabilitation Project Force”, “Overboardings”, “Disconnection, etc, etc.
        No doubt, Hubbard read the post of mine that you’re replying to, and pre-retroactively rewrote it as that text in Scientology 8-8008 🙂

        1. “No doubt, Hubbard read the post of mine that you’re replying to, and pre-retroactively rewrote it as that text in Scientology 8-8008 🙂 ”

          LOL – “pre-retroactively.” You really ARE funny!

            1. “Retroactive ahead of time.” Godel should include this on his list. 😉

  26. Hey Geir, here is Kurt Gödel’s “win” statement. Maybe you could post a discussion on these after this thread wanes.\Some of these could make for great discussion.

    This statement in particular sounds interesting:

    “The higher beings are connected to the others by analogy, not by composition.”

    ***

    Kurt Gödel’s 14 Points

    1. The world is rational.

    2. Human reason can, in principle, be developed more highly (through certain techniques).

    3. There are systematic methods for the solution of all problems (also art, etc.).

    4. There are other worlds and rational beings of a different and higher kind.

    5. The world in which we live is not the only one in which we shall live or have lived.

    6. There is incomparably more knowable a priori than is currently known.

    7. The development of human thought since the Renaissance is thoroughly intelligible (durchaus einsichtige).

    8.R eason in mankind will be developed in every direction.

    9. Formal rights comprise a real science.

    10. Materialism is false.

    11. The higher beings are connected to the others by analogy, not by composition.

    12. Concepts have an objective existence.

    13. There is a scientific (exact) philosophy and theology, which deals with concepts of the highest abstractness; and this is also most highly fruitful for science.

    14. Religions are, for the most part, bad– but religion is not.

    1. This is so coincindental! Serendipitous! I have these cut and ready to paste in my wordprocessing at this moment. I’ve just finished reading over them and thought to myself how these do not read to me like I imagine Kurt Godel would think. He has done a lot of conjecturing, and I do not even agree at all with his first point! I think the world is mathematically irrational and think that rationality is simply an abstraction that we invent and use, like to count eggs and such.

      1. I know right? I never guessed it either He is Pythagorean in his assessments. He’s a mathematical realist.

        NOT a popular position.

        1. It is in that list of Godel’s thoughts abou things, that I think Chris posted upstream of my comment. Next time I see it I will post the link to his comment.

    2. Point 1 is demonstrably not true.

      Observably in my experience such reason as is apparent and predominates in this world is predicated in the large on numerous poorly formed and typically misguided and false assumptions (both individual & collective) and moreover is used principally in consideration of short term goals or immediate obvious consequences.

      Human reason can be enhanced on an individual basis, but as humans themselves are inherently limited it follows that so too is human reason.

      The question of “what lies beyond those limits” is, with few exceptions, one largely limited to speculative fancy.

      Godel was an optimist.

  27. Knowledge a priori is analytical knowledge, doesn’t need to be occurring the world, needs no evidence, can be simply a belief.

    Knowledge a posteriori are facts which can be or have been checked.

    Wrapped up in these two types of “knowing” are the differences between beliefs (a priori) and facts (a posteriori).

    I want Alanzo to be proud of me. It is my salute to “staying skeptical.”

    1. Losing Alanzo’s favor is … UNTHINKABLE! .

      Just put me on an iceberg and send me out with a day’s seal meat into the sunset. . .

  28. Elizabeth’s system of knowing seems to be 100% a priori. She only measures her current knowledge against her current knowledge. This makes her very flexible, to herself. To others? They are wrong and cannot even convince her that they know and agree with what she is talking about.

    A diligent applied scientist’s knowledge (think CERN in Switzerland) is 100% a posteriori. He’s like the ultimate “Missourian” with a 100% “show me” attitude.

    The rest of us hold onto knowledge which falls somewhere between and is a mixture of both facts and beliefs.

    One important trick to happy living, I think would be to know which is which and as Vinaire would say, be mindful of the difference.

    1. “One important trick to happy living, I think would be to know which is which and as Vinaire would say, be mindful of the difference.”

      I go back to John Macmurray’s three lenses: Scientific, Religious and Artistic. Each lens has a purpose and the purer we can keep each, the better we view through each.

      Scientific (a posteriori), Religious (a priori) and Artistic (both, none or either?)

      1. And often what we see is a person stuck in a science lens fighting a person stuck in a religious lens – both unwilling to look through the other and believe what they see.

        1. “And often what we see is a person stuck in a science lens fighting a person stuck in a religious lens – both unwilling to look through the other and believe what they see.”

          When you put it like that, it is so easy to see. And as I was driving out to a job site this morning with an hour to spend dwelling on whatever, I was maundering over this very idea and even when two ideas are, say a priori, what exactly is clashing when disharmonic ideas smash into one another. Is it an EMRadiation such as light? Is thought light in an invisible spectrum? And this was jumbled together with inputs from the horrible news of say Gaza where Hamas is launching rockets toward Israel from “civilian” locations but these un-guided scuds, reportedly 100 in 9 days have landed in Gaza! on their own people. It seems that mankind cannot learn from its mistakes.

          1. The weird thing I see is cognitive dissonance and the three lenses.

            A true believer can look AT another lens but often cannot look through it without putting their attached lens in front.

            Often they cannot even acknowledge the primary lens they are wearing.

            Yesterday I saw “Lucy” which IS SCIENTOLOGY ON SCREEN.

            Wow. This is what an OT really looks like!

            I googled the directors name afterward and discovered I wasn’t the only one to come to that conclusion.

            That said, I loved it in spite of the awful Pseudo-scientific statements about the brain.

            It’s a cool mythology and the notion at the end needs no miracles leading up to it at all.

            We can get to her “EP” without any miracles AT ALL. All we have to do is DECIDE TO.

            And enjoy the lenses we can wear and be honest with with what they show us.

            “Just sit. Nothing Special.”

  29. In 2006, I was still a true believer in Scientology Technology and sitting in the shit of my SP declare. How I dealt with that was to have partitioned off that part of my thoughts and “held them in reserve” for the day when I could afford to do something about them. That summer, I took a 5 week motorcycle trip through the midwest USA and down the Mississippi River. My daughter was still unable to have any communication with her mother in the SO because of my excommunication and she was suffering from it. I contacted the IJC with the intention of doing my Steps A-E for the uninitiated, these are steps a person must take to grovel and beg and try to get back in “good” standing with the COS. At the time, I wasn’t happy about doing them but felt I needed to do something so that my daughter could give and receive communication from her mother.

    So I did begin doing the steps and did the write up and submitted it twice but it came back (if I had it, I swear I would publish it here because it is way more embarrassing, shot full of self abnegation and grovelling than Geir’s relatively mild OTVIII success story) , but it came back because it was not grovelling enough and put the SO in a “bad light.” Well that was disheartening but not entirely and as I talked with the IJC about (she wanted me to) how to fix it she began regging me to buy the new books GAT. How much? I think the number was $27,000 for a few sets of GAT indulgences and the juxtaposition of her reg cycle over the top of the suffering of myself and of my family just broke something inside me and I snapped at her. Then I was done. I was not sure exactly how I was done or in what way but the umbilical cord not longer nourished me and the rot of its festering was poisoning my life beyond what I wanted to endure.

    So I did the unthinkable. I opened my browser and began researching. I had sat in my own shit for 15 years, not thinking about it, until then. I found an independent auditor in Los Angeles, California. Sweating and not even daring to use the phone in my own home, I paced the back yard and called Aida Thomas. We talked. It was good. We talked more than a few times. She thought I was OSA but wasn’t sure. She decided to trust and I decided to go to LA and start a new life as an independent Scientologist.

      1. “Would you do it all again?”

        This is such a pertinent question to ask a person who is being crabby and dramatic about the past.

        From the past viewpoint of seeing the future and how it would be destructive and cause pain to my family, no.

        In hindsight, and with the knowledge of what a wonderful life I’ve built and the family I now enjoy, yes, I don’t regret any part of my life for without any least part of it, it would not be as it is today, and I am enjoying today.

        From the reality of a juggernaut-iterative-time-stream, the question makes no sense. Feel me?

        1. Very cool, Chris! I very much agree with you.

          There was much in my Scientology experience that I now recognize as false, misleading, harmful at times; but it was part of the path that took me to where I am now.

          And for that same reason, I believe in having an attitude of respect, empathy and reconciliation for those who happen to be currently caught in the web of beliefs, attitudes and participation in the C of S; I think it’s only fair to say that the only difference between those of us on one side of the fence and those of us on the other is simply where we happen to be at this point on the experiential/learning curve at this point in time. We all started out with good and noble intentions, and felt we were doing what’s right, until whatever the breaking point was, is or will be.

          Furthermore, for all about “the tech”, as it was given, that I now find misleading, detrimental and/or inefficient (not to say that there aren’t some great principles and techniques in that mix), my “standard” auditor training had its good aspects, and, undeniably, was a firm stepping stone on the path of what I now find so much success and fulfillment in as a practitioner 🙂

          Love, Dex

          1. Thanks Dex. YOU are very cool and it would be an honor for me to sit in a chair across from you and hold the cans. When a person’s (you) mind is right, it translates doing what is right for others. I would trust you.

  30. If people attributed the goods and bads that happened to them, to themselves, I think there might be peace. To thank is one thing. I could thank someone that offered me something. But to say he did it to me is false, for me. Same with the ugly stuff. Also from the viewpoint that you do things to yourself, beliefs tend to be of no importance, and hence fanaticism too.

    I’m tired of this intending first to defend or attack and then finding anything possible to defend or attack with. Criticism driven by poles, passions, is not neutral, obviously, to say the least. I don’t take it ‘seriously’. SCN has no effect on me anymore, as I haven’t participated in like a decade or so. But if I said anything ‘positive’ about it, oh I would be ‘brainwashed’. But if I believed everything I read against it I would be free, behehe. OK. I don’t know what to say if I’m to get insulted anyway. And anyway, one insults himself with fanaticism as he believes instead of knowing for himself.

    1. Great, Spyros. Always good to read your unique viewpoints and take on things. In particular, I admire the way you naturally seem to ‘take responsibility’ for your own plight and that, greatly assists in ‘as-ising’ situations, for ultimate betterment and ARCU

      Although I personally have abandoned the label: ‘scientologist’, I nevertheless continue to use the ‘tools’ daily.

      The Axioms, tone scale, ARCU triangle, auditing tech, 3pty and sp. tech, admin scale, etc, are valuable and thoroughly accurate as far as I’m concerned, so no need or obligation to abandon or discard them.

      To me, they’re as indispensable as a cell phone / computer, for giving / receiving and relaying accurate data /info., just as any reliable ‘tools’, are expected to be.

      If you know the freedom of being aloft in hanglider, why would you settle for just being constantly ‘stuck’ on terra firma ?

      Just another way of asking why anyone would settle for an existence without the means to understand and handle their life, with relative ease, fun and enjoyment, free of ignorance? 🙂

      1. Thanx again for your good words 🙂
        Because the subjects Scientology and Hubbard are being questioned (to put it politely), I don’t use the SCN terms unless I speak to a Scientologist, alone. It rarely happens to me, as where I live I don’t have contact with any. But whether one considersas-isness’ to be BS or not, I think it’s ‘common sense’ that if you believe something you believe it, and if you don’t believe it, you don’t believe it. If I sit and write a few pages in here and nobody believes me (not even disbelieve me), it wont have any effect on anybody. So, in the same fashion, if somebody believes me and later on realizes that the terrible things he thought were just due to his believing me, he will then ‘as-is’ that, right? Now, if he -over what I had written- had added his own stuff, he would have more to realize.
        I personally don’t have any problem anymore even with people who would use SCN -or anything else- to harm, because I think they don’t make it. But if I believed them, they could have an effect on me. It would be me who would have an effect on me, then, due to my own belief. So, not really them.
        As far as Hubbard’s theories and processing is concerned, I don’t have anything against them either, not just because of that belief thing I mentioned above, but because he himself said to not believe. And OK, in some other references you might find he implies other things, but I was determined on my own determinism to not believe. I was once told to protest in the name of SCN, and I didn’t do it, because I myself didn’t know what was going on. I should had done the same in various other instances, but it’s no use to regret now.
        My not being a Scientologist is not due to disagreement with SCN data. I don’t believe SCN nor disbelieve it. Besbelief is an opposite pole to believing. Belief is a poly and disbelief is a pole too. But I think the deepest point in attaining that ‘freedom’ Hubbard used to talk about, was to discard beliefs. So, that would include SCN beliefs, no? I don’t think I’m not aligned with SCN, if I don’t believe it. I think a fanatic, a fighter, is not aligned with SCN –at least the SCN I understand and understood it back then too.
        Also, I’m personally very unrealistic, and don’t mind if SCN is labelled nutty. I’m nutty, SCN or not. I love supernatural stuff, but I’m also very picky, careful with them. I don’t believe just anything.

            1. Magic! I’m in the pressure cooker at the moment,.As a commercial artist, I am and have been working 18 – 21 hours per day for the past 6 weeks, to complete a brand new figurine for the commercial production of my factory line. (Trophies.)

              The blog is a nice slice of “free time”, where I catch up on a few selected and uptone posters, (whom I enjoy,) over a meal. 🙂

              I let my wife, Dorothy, handle facebook, and all other business related comm. (I own and operate several businesses), whenever I have to ‘disappear into the tunnel’ for an extended creative period.

              As you know, deadlines can control and confine your activities for considerable periods of time, so I’m looking forward to a respectable gap, where I can just relax and “blog away”.

              Thanks for your great contributions, Spyros. 🙂

              – Calvin. Durban, South Africa

            2. Artists huh, good. I do some amateur computer graphics and sound too. But my profession is irrelevant. At the moment profession is a have-to for me, and art is just fun. And yeah I blog from work too, when I don’t have people around.

              Thanx for the A, Calvin.

              – Spyridon (my very formal, full name) 🙂

            3. Thanks Guru, (Geir) I much appreciate from whence this comes.
              🙂 🙂

      2. OK, in case my reply got intercepted by too much counter-intention, in short, I said that I personally think of SCN as of theories and techniques to get rid of beliefs and maybe other stuff too. The theories are beliefs, alright. But for me, the purpose is the same. So, to not believe in SCN is not out of alignment with SCN basics, for me. And so, to make somebody believe in SCN or the mechanics explained therein, is not aligned with SCN basics.

        And a bracket: If I don’t want SCN to be the ‘one and only’, is not because I don’t want it to exist. Whether it will exist or not is not depended upon me nor critics but upon SCN itself –how it is utilized and such.

        1. * If I third-party you against Geir, you don’t have to buy my third party. If I’m hard against somebody -and even is he had overts- he doesn’t have to ARC break. That’s what I think. And about the reactive mind…we have talked about that stuff again. I don’t think that DMSMH creates creactive minds in all people, but it could happen. I think usually one creates some things and after DMSMH he categorizes them, accordingly. And maybe, if he doesn’t delete that stuff he creates them even more, if he tries to analyse his condition. So then it’s not bad to use it to heal, but if it’s not used to heal, but to create/analyse problems…and if only the rich can afford it and if co-auditing is bashed, who will use it to heal? OK, enough analysis, going back to trivial stuff. 😛

    2. Oh, Spyros, in case I have given a totally inaccurate impression, as far as ‘TOOLS’ are concerned, hey man, I’m certainly not limited in any way in the CHOICE of tools!! Whatever works, that gets my support, (providing I see clear evidence)

      I have see hypnotism handle panic attacks, in ONE session, when auditing could not. Chiropractic, acupuncture, laughter therapy, a hobby, gym, running, golf, etc, etc.

      There are a plethora of wonderful, skillful and highly intelligent practitioners, helpful and caring people out there, willing to shine their light and bring relief and solutions to people in need.

      WE really are a large family of earthlings, (including all its diverse inhabitants) I reckon though, that we have forgotten how to remain light-hearted, loving and caring, and really need to brush up on our comm skills with ARCU.

      Dropping the ‘seriousness’ from our existence, would make for better relationships right across the board too! Laughter still remains about the best, most affordable medicine around, hey?

      -Calvin 🙂

      1. My wanting people to have many tools was a solution I thought up to being depended on people (specific, more or less) who I thought might want to control others (in a bad way) through SCN. I do think a tool -whatever that is- is as good as you make it be. And there might be better and worse tools, OK. I would prefer to know I have panic attacks because blah blah (accurate explanation) than to force myself to not have panic attacks through subconscious control. But still, you make/allow a tool work on you or not, right? So then a tool could be I will chant ‘hello world’ a few times and that will make me feel better. And that could happen too. No hypnotism included, by the way. It’s just that you make it happen.

        🙂

  31. What I would like to know is how much you wrote, Geir, about your OT 8 success story, is how much of what you had written was out of your own knowledge and how much was fed to you as LRH data, or data from other people. In other words, did those things occur to you or not?

    1. They occurred. But as I wrote in the update, much is due to the excitement of the moment. And that is why I would generally disregard Scientology success stories as they are written immediately upon completion of an action. I don’t even regard them as valid anecdotal evidence.

      1. Appreciate your candor, Geir. However, how droll, existence would be, if we cannot fill it with excitement and enthusiasm, and look forward to creating effects worthy of the same!

        After all, isn’t ‘Create’, at the very heart of our existence?? 🙂

          1. Ouch! Pompous? Try telling that to one of your sons, when he grabs you by the hand, with: “Come see my new trick, Dad!”

            “I practiced it just for YOU” 🙂

      2. OK, regardless of the subjects we discuss in here, it’s good to read that stuff, if nobody even hinted what you should write, or ‘gain’. And SCN or not it would still be good to read that stuff, providing they came from the inside and not the environment. I have too been excited over things -not only in SCN- and later on I didn’t feel that excited. But it doesn’t mean to me that because I’m no longer excited now, my past excitement was untrue. It was true when it was.

      3. You know, something else I wanted to say about personal gains is that it’s true that others might not see them as the one who gains sees them. And I used to think that it’s enough for the one who gains to see them. But I don’t think that is absolute, anymore, because we are not alone. To explain, If I think it as a gain to have the power to kick random people’s butts on the street, and I do that, it might count as a gain for me, but not for the others. So, I don’t think one’s own view is enough. I just say that as a general observation, not hinting anything about your success story in specific. But in your success story in specific, you seem to pledge allegiance to the group because of your own gains, ignoring that there might be some good people called SPs out there, who might have been treated unffairly. And you support the group because of your own gains. That’s the narrow minded trap I and others fell in. “Because I feel good, it’s right.” Nope. I don’t think so. Of course, I wouldn’t ask for approval, and permission either, but to have personal gains is not enough, more factors should be taken into account. Prozak could make one feel good too.

    1. There are two links, one to the movie and one to Vinaire’s article about it on his blog. He says Alonzo introduced him to the movie on Marty’s. I think this experiment is incisive and brilliantly carried out. Was a moral thing to do? For me, understanding the lesson being taught, yes. But as Geir has asked whether it is right to upset another’s apple cart by introducing them to truth which wrecks their happiness? (Geir, I just looked for your previous blog post on this subject, but couldn’t remember it or find it, so correct my reference to your comment as needed.)

  32. Interesting and similar to some of my “success stories” I wrote while on the “Church”. My only missing thanks were the ones to RTC: I had already the hint that that part of the Church stunk. I see my experience in scientology like a bus, I knew it was a bus and I was ready to get out as soon as I would arrive were I had to or (and this happened) I could see that I was getting nowhere.
    But if someone would ask me the following question: “Would you rather have never known scientology and had this experience you had or would you have to go through all the hardship you had with the Church and have the experience and knowledge?” I would go rather through all the hardship. I do not regret any of that experince and I understand all the bad that is in the Church and in part of Scientology that contradicts itself. I take the good and forget about the bad tech or bad application and continue in my unfolding.

    1. Great Salvatore. And yes, the tech is after all, a whole bunch of amazing tools, put together to achieve exactly what all of us DID! The rest is just a horrid mess of melodrama, which ended up in the mix through stealth, greed and reversal of the actual potential achievable.

      Like any thing really profound and powerful, just HOW it is used, and for WHAT ultimate purposes, determines the results.

      I remain convinced that the ol’ man was spot on with his ultimate warnings, about what fate might befall Scientology.

      -Calvin. … Durban, South Africa.

      1. Geir, you said regarding your first paragraph, “This paragraph is not very meaningful blah-blah that represent a bunch of emotions at the time.”

        It seems that just completing the level was quite a relief, and it was that relief speaking rather than gains on the level.

  33. As I remember I never gave any glowing success stories during my Scientology career except once or twice when I really felt it, I never faked my success stories or over-represented my wins. So I was rarely invited to speak of my wins in front of people.

      1. Wow! That certainly makes one wonder how influenced one was. I also had mixed emotions when leaving the Sea Org. I was sad to let a good purpose go. Now I can see how some conditioning had worked on me.

  34. Geir,
    I’m not sure what value is to be had in critiquing your success story. Evaluation and Invalidation are distinct Scn terms, which I no longer subscribe to, so I will attempt to review your write-up as a normal human being 🙂

    In a general sense, your success story (as well as most success stories) attempts to objectify a highly personal subjective experience. Since I have no reason to doubt your sincerity or honesty, I would have to conclude your experiences doing OT8 were positive.

    I would speculate that the vast majority of success stories collected by the church are written by sincere, honest folk. Sure, sometimes one feels pressure to write a glowing report, but by and large, church members write them on their own determinism. Their reasons for doing this may differ. Personally I never felt the need to have “my win acknowledged”, which always seemed weird. Most times when I wrote a success story it was because I experienced something profound and wanted to let others know that such things were possible.

    Going back to your success story…if we were on Amazon it would be a solid 5-star product endorsement.

    Funny…just some thoughts on the whole success story thing. This is Hubbard’s advanced admin tech quality control/feedback loop – written testimonies. Considering they are generated within a bubble makes them highly unreliable and practically worthless as a metric. If he were honest about the value of success stories, he would have introduced “failure stories” as well; where members could anonymously submit failures and disappointments (without repercussions or penalty), and post them prominently alongside the success stories.

    Instead, his Qual division is operating off of the quantity of “good news”. Not enough success stories = something is wrong. Regardless of the number of success stories, there could be two “failure stories” for every “success story”. So your success story stat could be in affluence, but your hidden failure story stat could be in screaming affluence, as a result the org is in the toilet – but Qual is upstat!! just look at all the successes we’re producing!

    Sorry…you got me started.

    Getting back to YOUR success story… You appear to have enjoyed yourself and for that I am happy for you. There really isn’t much more to say about that.

    Cheers,

    Statpush

  35. I find the following observation very interesting. It was made by Hubbard of Scientology.

    “Attention is aberrated by becoming unfixed and sweeping at random or becoming too fixed without sweeping.” ~ L. Ron Hubbard

    Attention helps us become aware of things. Normally we can freely direct our attention and put it wherever we want. But when we cannot do so, something is obviously amiss. This gives us a valuable tool for discovery.

    Pursue non-optimum attention to discover what is amiss.

    In other words, look more closely at the area that is causing the attention to become fixed and/or dispersed. This is the basic idea underlying the concept of “inconsistency” in KHTK.

    As you become aware of the reason underlying some inconsistency, your attention gets freed up and returns to your control.

  36. INCONSISTENCY = Something that fixates or disperses one’s attention.

    Scientology is such an area for the participants of this blog. Critics of Scientology finds something amiss with Scientology. Proponents of Scientology like to defend and justify those things amiss in Scientology because, otherwise, it shakes their stable data.

    To get one’s stable data shaken is painful for anybody. A person will give up an aberrated stable datum only when he finds a better stable datum.

    KHTK is an attempt to provide a better stable data for those things that are amiss in Scientology.

    Mindfulness is something that is amiss in Scientology.
    .

  37. Ironically, I was introduced to mindfulness on the TR0 drill of Scientology. But then Scientology went on a tangent from there.

  38. Real communication is possible only when mindfulness is there. That means the following points are in:

    1. Observe without getting influenced by your expectations and desire for answers.
    2. Observe things as they are, without assuming anything.
    3. If something is missing do not imagine something else in its place.
    4. If something does not make sense then do not explain it away.
    5. Use physical senses as well as mental sense to observe.
    6. Let the mind un-stack itself.
    7. Experience fully what is there.
    8. Do not suppress anything.
    9. Associate data freely.
    10. Do not get hung up on name and form.
    11. Contemplate thoughtfully.
    12. Let it all be effortless.

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