I believe we have an inherent drive, a purpose. Any purpose.
A purpose needs a game. A game needs a purpose.
Without barriers, there is no drive and without a drive there is no life.
Life is fueled by accomplishment. The overcoming of barriers toward a purpose we create yields a sense of mastery, of accomplishment.
When we fulfill purposes, we create new purposes to achieve. As we realize purposes, our life becomes more accomplished, more perfected. And comfort sets in.
Johnny wants to become a physician, have a luxurious home, a great marriage and two wonderful kids. He goes through years of education, dates girls, becomes a doctor and marries Miss Right. They get two lovely kids. He’s a wonderful father and they adore him. They live in a fantastic house and life is full of comfort. Now what?
With more perfection and comfort, less purposes and excitement remains. There is freedom with less barriers and adventure, less drive and direction. There is less to live for. At that point a person can slumber in apathy or revolt by creating less positive adventures – like self-inflicted pains, drugs or criminality. Johnny starts drinking and beats Miss Right left and right. He gambles and loses the house.
What happens with individuals have parallels in societies and the World at large.
We see the dangers of comfort in our decadent Western world much like the Romans experienced in their conquered world. As our world grows less dangerous and comfort and freedom sets in, we will create new dangers to topple, or we can slide into apathy to have dangers mounting while we slumber. With less wars, population growth tapering off and with criminality rates going down, we may have to rely on global warming or artificial intelligence to keep us busy. Because perfecting society with security to iron out any possibility of terrorism will only create more comfort and less life.
Maybe the need for adventure is why we don’t see any advance alien civilizations. Maybe they bored themselves into apathy or did some crazy shit as a counter-reaction to the increasing comfort and lull.
If you can look past the terrible special effects and the cute retro scenery, this episode of Space 1999 captures the dangers of comfort in a neat way:
What should we do to have a decent game to come back to?
Geir Isene - uncut 
For some the purpose is to scrape enough food together to survive.
For others it is to avoid being bombed or shot. For others it is to sell enough to make a living in declining markets.
How do I overcome the loss of my wife to cancer?
How can I pay the rent so I don’t get evicted.
To those who have struggled with various pressing purposes throughout their lives lack of purpose may be a peaceful blessing.
Those in most danger through lack of purpose are those whose only purpose was to rise to the top without a care for their fellow man.
Of course. But beyond all that there is indeed the created problems pointed out by an IRA leader: https://isene.me/2014/11/12/embrace-the-conflicts/
Nationalism is an extension of tribalism. Its how we emerged from caves ; waring tribes.
The Irish tribe and the British tribe fighting for supremacy.
In truth there is only one tribe the human tribe.
Now we hear talk of British values as if no one else had any.
It is fostered by sports and opposing sides often resort to violence.
Still better sports than war.
‘ Evil is a natural human phenomenon , and some level of predatory violence is innate in us.’
Sam Harris
“In truth there is only one tribe the human tribe.”
Is it truth? . . . or is it possibly an arbitrary and fallacious abstraction?
You are right to question it and truth is perhaps too strong a word, especially as I do not believe in absolute truth.
But even Euclid had to start somewhere and he stated his assumptions.
So I will state it as a basic but unprovable assumption on which we can build a human geometry that works for us all.
I do believe in an absolute truth – Existence. And Existence has the capacity to be aware.
A smart answer but so far as we know the only thing in existance that is ‘aware’ are human beings. The rest is dead to itself.
Okay, for the sake of argument, let’s assume that’s true. Nevertheless, the fact that awareness exists in humans is an absolute truth. And when asked about it, no one can refute it without thus proving it – just by their awareness of and response to the question. 🙂
That would be true if it were not for the fact that some neuroscientists dispute the fact that the self exists.
They say that free will and the self are illusions. Others dispute this outlook. As a humble layman I have to assess the experts , and thats often fraught with difficulties.
I am an agnostic for the reason much of human knowledge is built on shifting sand. Like most people I have certain unprovable convictions.
“That would be true if it were not for the fact that some neuroscientists dispute the fact that the self exists. They say that free will and the self are illusions. Others dispute this outlook.”
Now , that’s kind of contradictory if you look at it closely. What/who is saying that “Self and and Free Will are illusions” ? What/who is thinking those thoughts ? Isn’t is obvious that something which is conscious/aware is making those observations ? How can anything who isn’t aware/conscious make any observations at all , or “analyze” anything ? That doesn’t make any sense. And ANYTHING that is capable of awareness , IS conscious which means IS an aware Self. And if something is conscious/aware, it follows that he/it is capable of creating thoughts. And it something/someone can create thoughts, then it seems to me that it must possess Free will as well.
“And if something is conscious/aware, it follows that he/it is capable of creating thoughts. And it something/someone can create thoughts, then it seems to me that it must possess Free will as well.”
Hi Peter,
I don’t think this syllogism holds up. I think that you can decide to build a mental framework with rules of it’s own. The rules don’t even have to be consistent within that framework, they just have to be rules and the more of them, the better. But if we yearn for the truth of consistency then we owe it to ourselves to let the rest of the possibilities in.
Here’s a challenge: Prove that it is a syllogism.
I understood Peter’s paragraph this way:
Major Premise: And if something is conscious/aware, it follows that he/it is capable of creating thoughts.
Minor Premise: And it something/someone can create thoughts, . . . (something is creating thoughts)
Conclusion: . . . then it seems to me that it must possess Free will as well.”
In another sense, I agree with Peter’s statement but then seemingly need to broaden it to include artificial intelligence (Ai). Thus Ai also has increasingly “free will.” This seems reasonable to me.
Chris : “In another sense, I agree with Peter’s statement but then seemingly need to broaden it to include artificial intelligence (Ai). Thus Ai also has increasingly ‘free will.’ This seems reasonable to me.”
I don’t feel that it can be “broaden to include AI” , Chris. For me AI is but a dream of science and nothing more, and I’ll explain.
The following is from this source :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence
“However, there is wide agreement among artificial intelligence researchers that intelligence is required to do the following: ”
“1. Reason,use strategy, solve puzzles, and make judgments under uncertainty; ”
“2. Represent knowledge,including commonsense knowledge;”
“3. Plan; ”
“4. Learn; ”
“5. Communicate in natural language; ( not just in binary)”
“6. And integrate all these skills towards common goals.”
“Other important capabilities include the ability to sense (e.g. see) and the ability to act (e.g. move and manipulate objects) in the world where intelligent behaviour is to be observed. This would include an ability to detect and respond to hazard.”
I am sorry , but it seems to me that only a sentient/aware Self can carry out all of the above.
I am no computer expert in no way, shape or form , but as far as I know, no matter how “complicated” the tasks that ANY computer might carry out may be , it all boils down to adding/comparing Os ans 1s , and nothing more. Just those 2 functions ; add/compare binary numbers under the guidance of very specific instructions/rules called “Algorithms”.
Someone (actually , hundreds of engineers) write incredible detailed and long algorithms that the computer/system interprets as a combination of 0s and 1s for each piece of instruction , and the system carry billions of those per second. And that “APPEARS” , just appears to resemble “thinking” , but it is not “thinking” neither “Intelligence” as such. Only Self aware/Conscious units , can actually observe, plan, analyze, decide and act. Why ? Because that’s what LIFE does. Only Life as such (or things endowed with life BY Life itself) can ever manifest Free Will.
Not matter how “advance” any computer may appear to be , it is just a piece of inanimate junk , conceived, designed and created by ACTUAL intelligence. And if any mechanical system ever does exhibit life-like characteristics , it would only be because Life itself endowed it with life , just as Spirits endow plants and human/animal bodies with life.
If a computer perform billions of operations a second , just imagine how many does Consciousness perform. But it is so natural, so inherent , that we don’t realize that we are actually performing trillions and trillions operations each second. Perhaps close to an infinite number. The “complexity” of that is just never realized, just as a concert pianist doesn’t realize about all the movements he carries out to play a complicated piece. He just play it w/out “thinking”. He just does it.
Peter, I’m glad you quoted what you did about AI. I read somewhere that even thought computers can do calculations and handle data in a way that is light years beyond the ability of a human – programming a robot to sweep the floor is a huge problem in AI. Much less programming one to clean up an unexpected spill of milk.
The key point about AI, to my mind, is the fact that a computer is missing the element of understanding – which is actually a definition of life. Another way to put it is that there is no awareness in AI. All the correctly operating 1s and 0s does not equate to any knowingness involved – or awareness, or understanding, or meaning, or emotion that is experienced.
So I say to you – good post! 🙂
Marildi : “Peter, I’m glad you quoted what you did about AI.”
Thanks Sweetie. I had been following your interesting exchanges between you and Elizabeth , and wanted to comment and say Hi , but I didn’t want to interfere with the good flow that was occurring.
Marildi : “I read somewhere that even thought computers can do calculations and handle data in a way that is light years beyond the ability of a human – programming a robot to sweep the floor is a huge problem in AI. Much less programming one to clean up an unexpected spill of milk.”
That’s right. The guys at MIT and at Honda (ASIMO robot) have been fumbling around for decades with advance Robotics based on AI. ASIMO can even (allegedly) recognize when someone raises his hand for a handshake, and to response in the similar manner. Billions of adding/comparing binary numbers and all kind of sensing tech based on light to recreate and interpret imagery , just for a handshake.
What a waste of resources indeed! But is ASIMO able to tell the difference between a handshake and a hand that was raised with a weapon ? Or if the “handshaker” was being sarcastic or evil to him , which would encompass not giving him the handshake in return ? What if we extend the hand with the palm upside down ? Would he still take it ? There can be hundreds of variables just involved in a simple handshake , let alone using a broom or a toothbrush. How can we possibly program all probable scenarios ? That’s just mad science from my perspective , and a total waste of resources and budgets in a dead-end goal.
Better spend those resources(of AI research) in useful tech like nanorobotics and its great potential uses in medicine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanorobotics
Nanobots won’t be ACTUAL thinking machines ever , but at least , enough advance algorithms (which resembles AI) can be designed for multiple medical/health scenarios in an isolated/enclosed system with a set of well known variables. But trying to create a “Data” (form the character’s name in “Start Trek , The Next Generation” ) , might be fascinating , but not at all doable w/out embedding him with Life first. Only Life can perceive, analyze, take decisions (in any complex system) and act.
Marildi : “The key point about AI, to my mind, is the fact that a computer is missing the element of understanding – which is actually a definition of life. Another way to put it is that there is no awareness in AI. All the correctly operating 1s and 0s does not equ ate to any knowingness involved – or awareness, or understanding, or meaning, or emotion that is experienced.”
Precisely , Marildi ; you basically and accurately (and beautifully) summarized it all in your comment above.
Marildi : “So I say to you – good post! 🙂 ”
Thanks , Sunshine ; most kind. 🙂
Peter, thanks for the link to the article on nano-robotics. Amazing science, no doubt about it! I have to give you credit for your high interest and knowledge about such things. And I agree with you that “nanobots won’t be ACTUAL thinking machines ever,” and for the same reason you stated here:
“There can be hundreds of variables involved in just a simple handshake, let alone using a broom or a toothbrush. How can we possibly program all probable scenarios?”
The above is the precise reason why “life” is needed for the most advanced thinking – but not just any “life” organism; it has to be humans. The reason for that is because on this planet, only humans (as far as we know) have a mind that thinks in dualities. This is entirely significant since that type of thinking is what it takes to (quoting you) “perceive, analyze, take decisions (in any complex system) and act.”
Besides having both language and a mind that are essentially dual , humans have all the needed data in their individual memory banks. And, at least at times, they are also capable of accessing the data in the collective memory banks – known for centuries as the Akashic records – which has ALL the data. I expect that science will one day (possibly sooner than we think) confirm the existence of these records – which have a real physical basis.
In fact, some scientists already have a theory to do with this, and they have conducted experiments that support it. I’ve posted this video before, but you may not have watched it. It’s a talk by former astronaut Edgar Mitchell in which he describes the theory and supporting evidence for the idea that EVERY PHYSICAL OBJECT AND EVERY LIVING ORGANISM CONTAINS A RUNNING RECORD OF ITS WHOLE HISTORY. Talk about amazing!
Marildi : “Peter, thanks for the link to the article on nano-robotics.”
You are most welcome , Princess!
Marildi : “Amazing science, no doubt about it! I have to give you credit for your high interest and knowledge about such things.”
Thanks! ; most kind. 🙂 And yes , it is an amazing science indeed!
Marildi : “And I agree with you that “nanobots won’t be ACTUAL thinking machines ever,” and for the same reason you stated here:
(Peter) “There can be hundreds of variables involved in just a simple handshake, let alone using a broom or a toothbrush. How can w e possibly program all probable scenarios?”
Marildi : “The above is the precise reason why “life” is needed for the most advanced thinking – but not just any “life” organism; it has to be humans. The reason for that is because on this planet, only humans (as far as we know) have a mind that thinks in dualities. This is entirely significant since that type of thinking is what it takes to (quoting you) ‘perceive, analyze, take decisions (in any complex system) and act’. ”
You are very right about that as regards to the “Most advance thinking”. It must operate in “Good v/s Bad” and “Correct v/s Incorrect” dichotomies , within a very broad spectrum of “degrees” of those 4 values : “How ‘Good’ or ‘Bad’ something is , and the such. That’s called an “Infinite-valued Logic” as opposed to a “Two-valued Logic” upon which AI and “machines” are based. I don’t think that we are ever going to be able to create an AI system based on an Infinite-valued logic ; only Life itself is capable of that.
However, we can “simulate” such a method of Logic by a huge logic flow-chart (as in “Binary logic” ) with hundreds of “If(s)” in it. Sort of, “If A do B , if C do D” , etc, etc , outlining different possible scenarios that can arise in an enclosed system such a specific function of an organ or body part. That way , it would look as though the AI system (like a nanobot) is actually “Perceiving , analyzing , taking decisions, and then acting on them”. I believe that such a method have great uses in medicine (cybernetic organs , tissue repair, DNA modification/repair, etc, etc) and possible in automated navigation (NOT carrying weapons! ).
Marildi : “Besides having both language and a mind that are essentially dual , humans have all the needed data in their individual memory banks. And, at least at times, they are also capable of accessing the data in the collective memory banks – known for centuries as the Akashic records – which has ALL the data. I expect that science will one day (possibly sooner than we think) confirm the existence of these records – which have a real physical basis.”
Very accurate analysis! And I also hope that we can start investigating more seriously in a near future , the probability of that Akashic record (which seems to me quite plausible) . We need first to expand our knowledge of the Electromagnetic Spectrum – specifically about the ELF (Extreme Low Frequencies , in which apparently “Thoughts” operates/manifest ) band – to be able to “tune in” into the probable frequencies in which that record operates , including the design/construction of very sensitive electronic devises to detect/direct/modify such band of frequencies. I feel that those items such as the Akashic records, Quantum Holography, the phenomena of non-locality, etc, are all under the same category of “Thought”, in that the same type of “energy” is used to perform “work”.
Marildi : “In fact, some scientists already have a theory to do with this, and they have conducted experiments that support it. I’ve posted this video before, but you may not have watched it. It’s a talk by former astronaut Edgar Mitchell in which he describes the theory and supporting evidence for the idea that EVERY PHYSIC AL OBJECT AND EVERY LIVING ORGANISM CONTAINS A RUNNING RECORD OF ITS WHOLE HISTORY. Talk about amazing!”
Yeah , truly amazing indeed! The video is great! , thanks Angel. I had some difficulties playing it on my Android , and I decided to look for the same information but in written form. In my reply to your P.S comment , I posted the link where I think (Am I right ? ) that the same information on the video is to be found. I also commented about such information on that reply. Btw , amazing inf indeed! , thanks for posting it , Princess. 🙂
p.s. I should have added one other thought regarding what I wrote here:
“And, at least at times, they are also capable of accessing the data in the collective memory banks – known for centuries as the Akashic records – which has ALL the data.”
The above would account for intuition and for all paranormal or psi ability. This is basically what Edgar Mitchell is saying too, in the video.
Marildi : “p.s. I should have added one other thought regarding what I wrote here:
“And, at least at times, they are also capable of accessing the data in the collective memory banks – known for centuries as the Akashic records – which has ALL the data.”
“The above would account for intuition and for all paranormal or psi ability. This is basically what Edgar Mitchell is saying too, in the video.”
Peter : Thanks , Marildi. I tried to watch the video , but it is quite difficult to run it on my Android w/out it stopping so much as it is almost an hour long , and I need to increase my Internet speed and storage capacity. So I just tired of confronting “stops” , and just looked for the same information (I think it is ? ) in written form from this source :
http://cosmology.com/Consciousness149.htmlm
I am copy-pasting/quoting some portions of it for the benefit of others who may lack the time to watch the whole video , and who could use a shorter summary of the information. I am VERY happy that you directed me to that information , Sunshine. You always make my day brighter , thank you. ❤ 🙂
"5. The Quantum Hologram : "
"Mounting evidence seems to indicate that every physical object (both living and nonliving) has its own unique resonant holographic memory and this holographic image is stored in the Zero Point Field (Marcer et al. 1997). Information in the ZPF is stored non-locally and cannot be attenuated. Furthermore this information can be picked up via the mechanism of resonance as we described above. This information, its storage and its access is collectively called the Quantum Hologram (QH)."
Peter : That's a VERY interesting model indeed! The Zero Point Field (ZPF) had been theorized by Maxwell (though this isn't generally known by "modern" physicists) and a few others, but mostly by Tesla. The ZPF allegedly permeates EVERYTHING , and could be "tapped into " to obtain energy from it that would end any and all energy crisis in this world. That retrievable quantum information is stored in it with an unique quantum signature for each object/living being , seems intuitively true. Through the concept of "Non-locality" (Action-at-a-distance) and "Quantum Entanglement" (Instant "knowingness" of phenomena/action to respond to) , the barriers of Time and Space are meaningless , and thus instant communication of information can occur at any time from any point in space to another. I theorize that even from any point in time to anothe ; past to present , past to future , and present to future.
"We can think of an organism’s QH as its nonlocal information store in the ZPF that is created from all the quantum emissions of every atom, molecule and cell in the organism. Every objective or physical experience, along with every subjective experience is stored in our own personal hologram and we are in constant resonance with it. Each of us has our own unique resonant frequencies or our unique QH which acts as a "fingerprint" to identify our non local information stored in the zero point field. Since the event history of all matter is continually broadcast non-locally and stored in the QH, the QH can be viewed as a three dimensional vista / movie evolving in time which fully describes everything about the states of the object that created it. Not only do we each have our own unique QH, but it is also possible for others to tap into parts of it through resonance."
Peter : Did you know that LRH described a phenomena VERY similar to QH in his PDC lectures ? I have to find for you the exact lecture(s) where you can find it , as I don't remember now in which one(s) it is. I remember having been fascinated by the idea to go near one of these very old trees (2,000-3,000 years old) , and being able to "retrieve" somehow (being a Theta Clear – which I thought back then as something possible for me in a near future – silly me) all that the tree had "seen" throughout its history. I was just FASCINATED by that possibility. I was always this SILLY and naive dreamer. 🙂
"As we mentioned before every macro-scale physical object in nature has its own unique quantum hologram. It exists in 4D space time reality and is a non-local information structure that never attenuates. And, most importantly, it carries the entire event history of the physical object it was created from or, in the case of living organisms, the entire subjective and objective reality experienced by that organism. All this information about the entity is carried in the amplitude, frequencies (e.g. wavelengths) and in the phase relationships of those waves from the emitted entity. Perhaps, most important of all, is the fact that the information stored in the QH is recoverable through the process of resonance not only with the individual organism that created it but with other organisms as well if they are "tuned" to it. This seems to happen most commonly in humans when strong emotional connections exist between the two."
That would explain ESP, telepathy, psychic experiences, Mediumship, twin connections, Soul-mates, Twin-flames, mother-children psychic connections, etc, etc.
"Note that we are not suggesting that we are all virtual beings living in a "literal" holographic reality as interference patterns on nature’s holographic plate. We are all real beings living in a very real material existence consisting of matter, energy and information just as we experience it. Also the quantum hologram is not about the discovery of some new kind of subtle energies such as "élan vital", qi or prana suggested by many throughout history. Neither is it about multidimensional theories nor living in other planes of existence other than our normal 4 dimensional space time reality. But this does mean that we now have a mechanism to describe how mind can manipulate matter."
Peter : In that particular point I don't agree with Dr. Mitchell. I DO believe – even if I can't physically prove it at this point – that the energies involved in storing and retrieving the information , have an EXTREMELY low frequency (almost zero) on the "Theta Band". And thus , is DOES represent a "New kind of 'subtle' energy".
"Our QH model seems to explain many effects including aspects of mind, memory, stream of consciousness, various factors affecting health, psychic events, Jung’s collective unconscious, the Akashic record and other phenomena that arise out of the resonance with the QH residing in the zero point field. Before the discovery of quantum holography we had no mechanism to model or account for these phenomena let alone for information transfers between objects that these effects imply."
"We believe that QH is supported by both experimental and anecdotal evidence suggesting it is also a model that describes the basis for consciousness. It explains how living organisms know and use whatever information they know and utilize. It elevates the role of information in nature to the same fundamental status as that of matter and energy. In fact the QH seems to be nature’s built-in vast information storage and retrieval mechanism and one that has been used since the beginning of time. This would promote QH as a theory which is basis for explaining how the whole of creation learns, self-corrects and evolves as a self-organizing, interconnected holistic system. Since the laws of nature appear to be the same throughout the universe there is no reason that it should not also apply to extraterrestrial consciousness as well."
Peter : I just LOVE when spiritual phenomena is explained in logical/scientific ways. It perfectly harmonize with my dual nature : spiritual v/s scientific. One always control the other in a perfect balance. 🙂
Peter, I’m glad you have such an appreciation for that model too! And thanks for the great excerpts from the article you found on the same subject. Here’s a sentence you quoted that summarizes the key point of this holographic universe with regard to people:
“Each of us has our own unique resonant frequencies or our unique QH [quantum hologram] which acts as a ‘fingerprint’ to identify our non local information stored in the zero point field.”
That sentence was followed by something very much the same as what LRH described over half a century ago when he wrote that the time track was a fully accurate 3-dimensional “motion picture film” of the consecutive moments in time. Here’s how this was expressed in the article:
“…the QH can be viewed as a three dimensional vista / movie evolving in time which fully describes everything about the states of the object that created it.”
Peter: “Did you know that LRH described a phenomena VERY similar to QH in his PDC lectures?…I remember having been fascinated by the idea to go near one of these very old trees (2,000-3,000 years old), and being able to “retrieve” somehow (being a Theta Clear – which I thought back then as something possible for me in a near future – silly me) all that the tree had ‘seen’ throughout its history. I was just FASCINATED by that possibility. I was always this SILLY and naive dreamer. 🙂 ”
Not silly at all. Nowadays even police departments are smart enough to hire psychics who can perceive from some object (such as an article of clothing) the location the owner of the object – who may be a kidnapped child.
Peter: “I just LOVE it when spiritual phenomena is explained in logical/scientific ways. It perfectly harmonizes with my dual nature: spiritual vs scientific. One always controls the other in a perfect balance. 🙂 ”
Ditto! I couldn’t agree more. And now we know why “truth indicates” – it resonates. 🙂
Marildi : “Peter, I’m glad you have such an appreciation for that model too!
Peter : Thanks dear!
Marildi : “And thanks for the great excerpts from the article you found on the same subject. Here’s a sentence you quoted that summarizes the key point of this holographic universe with regard to people:.”
Mitchell : “Each of us has our own unique resonant frequencies or our unique QH [quantum hologram] which acts as a ‘fingerprint’ to identify our non local information stored in the zero point field. ”
Peter : Yeah, that was my favorite section of the quotes I posted! It seems we “resonate” quite well! 🙂
Marildi : “That sentence was followed by something very much the same as what LRH described over half a century ago when he wrote that the time track was a fully accurate 3-dimensional “motion picture film” of the consecutive moments in time. Here’s how this was expressed in the article:”
Mitchell : “…the QH can be viewed as a three dimensional vista / movie evolving in time which fully describes everything about the stat es of the object that created it.”
Peter : yes , EXACTLY as LRH said 65 years ago!
TC : “Did you know that LRH described a phenomena VERY similar to QH in his PDC lectures?…I remember having been fascinated by the idea to go near one of these very old trees (2,000 -3,000 years old), and being able to “retrieve” somehow (being a Theta Clear – which I thought back then as something possible for me in a near future – silly me) all that the tree had ‘seen’ throughout its history. I was just FASCINATED by that possibility . I was always this SILLY and naive dreamer. 🙂 ”
Marildi : “Not silly at all. Nowadays even police departments are smart enough to hire psychics who can perceive from some object (such as an article of clothing) the location the owner of the object – who may be a kidnapped child.”
Peter : Thanks, Sweet Angel! 🙂 Your description of those uses (among others as well) is how I feel my life ought to had been. I am living a VERY false existence indeed! So false and empty.
TC : “I just LOVE it when spiritual phenomena is explained in logical/scientific ways. It perfectly harmonizes with my dual nature: spiritual vs scientific. One always controls the other in a perfect balance. 🙂 ”
Marildi : “Ditto! I couldn’t agree more. And now we know why “truth indicates” – it resonates. 🙂 ”
Jjjj , I love how you describe things so perfectly real and conceptually understood! 🙂
Peter: “I just LOVE it when spiritual phenomena is explained in logical/scientific ways. It perfectly harmonizes with my dual nature: spiritual vs scientific. One always controls the other in a perfect balance.”
marildi: “Ditto! I couldn’t agree more. And now we know why ‘truth indicates’ – it resonates.”
Peter: “Jjjj, I love how you describe things so perfectly real and conceptually understood!”
Actually, let me perfect that a bit more. I should have said: “And now we know why ‘truth indicates’ – it LITERALLY resonates.” 😀
TC : “Jjjj, I love how you describe things so perfectly real and conceptually understood!”
Marildi : “Actually, let me perfect that a bit more. I should have said: ‘And now we know why “truth indicates” – it LITERALLY resonates’. ”
Yes , it does indeed! 🙂
p.s. I clicked on the link you gave for that article but it said “not found on this server.” However, I did find a copy of Edgar Mitchell’s own paper, titled The Quantum Hologram and the Nature of Consciousness,” You can find it here: http://docslide.us/documents/mitchell-quamitchell-quantum-hologram-and-consciousnessntum-hologram-and-consciousness.html
The paper is very long, so I mainly looked at the charts, diagrams and images in it – which are very informative. One shows a”Resonance Spectrum,” described as follows:
“The simplest form of resonance (e.g. entanglement) is shown on the left side of the graph. Moving to the right we show phenomena that manifests with increasing degrees of resonance and frequencies. We have included several phenomena on this graph such as Out-of-Body-Experiences (OBEs) and reincarnation but, as we shall soon see, our explanations of them are based on QH theory and require a different interpretation than those commonly found in popular literature. Finally, we shall describe how the degrees of resonance can occur along with techniques to facilitate them.”
Get that? Even reincarnation is theorized as being a function of resonance! I bet this ties in with karma too, not to mention many things is Scientology. Too bad science is so slow in accepting such a model – but when they finally do, it should change their whole paradigm. Hip hip hooray! 🙂
Marildi: “p.s. I clicked on the link you gave for that article but it said “notfound on this server.” However, I did find a copy of Edgar Mitchell’s ownpaper, titled The Quantum Hologram and the Nature of Consciousness,” You canfind it here: http://docslide.us/documents/mitchell-quamitchell-quantum-hologram-and-consciousnessntum-hologram-and-consciousness.html”
Peter: I can’t access to your link neither , but the article from my link – which youcouldn’t access to – and the article from your link – which I couldn’t accessas well – are apparently the same exact article. It is very long , has lots ofdiagrams and charts , and has the same exact title. How’s that for synchronicity? 🙂
Marildi: “The paper is very long, so I mainly looked at the charts, diagrams andimages in it – which are very informative. One shows a ‘Resonance Spectrum,’described as follows:”
Mitchell: “The simplest form of resonance (e.g. entanglement) is shown on the left sideof the graph. Moving to the right we show phenomena that manifests withincreasing degrees of resonance and frequencies. We have included severalphenomena on this graph such as Out-of-Body-Experiences (OBEs) and reincarnationbut, as we shall soon see, our explanations of them are based on QH theory andrequire a different interpretation than those commonly found in popularliterature. Finally, we shall describe how the degrees of resonance can occuralong with techniques to facilitate them.”
Marildi: “Get that? Even reincarnation is theorized as being a function ofresonance! I bet this ties in with karma too, not to mention many things isScientology.”
Peter: Yeah , I can definitively see it ;very interesting stuff indeed! And I agree that Karma may be tied to it aswell. In fact , the model explain Karma perfectly.
Marildi : “Too bad science is so slow inaccepting such a model – but when they finally do, it should change their wholeparadigm. Hip hip hooray! “
Peter: Yeah , too bad indeed! Science is generally TOO slow at ANYTHING. It hasbecome blind to many truths that should be obvious. It just dramatizes the “ScientificMethod” too much which only results in a “I can’t believe it” dramatization morethan an actual attempt to remain objective and logical as it should always be. Andhip hooray as well! J
Marildi : “p.s. I clicked on the link you gave for that article but it said “not found on this server.” However, I did find a copy of Edgar Mitchell’s own paper, titled The Quantum Hologram and the Nature of Consciousness,” You can find it here: http://docslide.us/documents/mitchell-quamitchell-quantum-hologram-and-conscio usnessntum-hologram-and-consciousness.html”
Peter : I can’t access to your link neither , but the article from my link – which you couldn’t access to – and the article from your link – which I couldn’t access as well – are apparently the same exact article. It is very long , has lots of diagrams and charts , and has the same exact title. How’s that for synchronicity ? 🙂
Marildi : “The paper is very long, so I mainly looked at the charts, diagrams and images in it – which are very informative. One shows a ‘Resonance Spectrum,’ described as follows:”
Mitchell : “The simplest form of resonance (e.g. entanglement) is shown on the left side of the graph. Moving to the right we show phenomena that manifests with increasing degrees of resonance and frequencies. We have included several phenomena on this graph such as Out-of-Body-Experiences (OBEs) and reincarnation but, as we shall soon see, our explanations of them are based on QH theory and require a different interpretation than those commonly found in popular literature. Finally, we shall describe how the degrees of resonance can occur along with techniques to facilitate them.”
Marildi : “Get that? Even reincarnation is theorized as being a function of resonance! I bet this ties in with karma too, not to mention many things is Scientology.”
Peter : Yeah , I can definitively see it ; very interesting stuff indeed! And I agree that Karma may be tied to it as well. In fact , the model explain Karma perfectly.
Marildi : “Too bad science is so slow in accepting such a model – but when they finally do, it should change their whole paradigm. Hip hip hooray! “
Peter : Yeah , too bad indeed! Science is generally TOO slow at ANYTHING. It has become blind to many truths that should be obvious. It just dramatizes the “Scientific Method” too much which only results in a “I can’t believe it” dramatization more than an actual attempt to remain objective and logical as it should always be. And hip hooray as well!
Oops. Second line should read “…even THOUGH computers can do calculations…” – not “thought computers.”
That’s quite all right. If I were to make the little “errors” that you sporadically make , I would be ready to take on a writer’s career! 🙂
“The “complexity” of that is just never realized, just as a concert pianist doesn’t realize about all the movements he carries out to play a complicated piece. He just play it w/out “thinking”. He just does it.”
I would like to discuss this more and am thinking about a way to continue. I’ll use the above quote of yours to begin. Why do you describe, what makes you think you’ve given a fair description of the way a concert pianist thinks toward his skill? When you write, “… He just does it.”. Of what do you suppose the “does it” that he doesn’t think about is composed?
“Here’s a challenge: Prove that it is a syllogism.”
Satisfied?
Chris: “Here’s a challenge: Prove that it is a syllogism.”
Satisfied?
You din’t actully prove that what he said was in fact a syllogism.
Also, on the content of your comment – in order for you to broaden the scope to include AI, then you would have to prove that AI can create – meaning that AI can in fact trnscend the laws of physics and create physics.
“Here’s a challenge: Prove that it is a syllogism.”
And so?
Sure I did. Now you want me to prove a negative such as, “god does not exist.” Your syllogism assumes freewill, this is not a fact but rather an assumption which may be wrong. If you’re planning to prove freewill a fact, you are going to need to show it, not assert it.
I am not involved in this argument. My views doesn’t count as they are not present. I merely gave you a challenge and pointed out that you did not provide a strict proof of the reasoning in fact being a syllogism. Secondly, you argued that AI could create thought and then I responded that in order to argue such, you have to prove that AI can in fact Create something – and that something is Thought. Please continue along your line of reasoning and proof. I am irrelevant and not a target here 🙂
Chris : “Hi Peter , ”
Hi, Chris!
I hope that life is ok and that your daughter is doing well.
Chris : “I don’t think this syllogism holds up. I think that you can decide to build a mental framework with rules of it’s own.”
Got it. Did you notice that you said , ” ‘YOU’ can ‘DECIDE’ to ‘BUILD’ a mental framework with its own rules” ? Three key words , Chris : “You” , “DECIDE” , and “BUILD”. What/who is “deciding” and “building” , Chris ? Who is “YOU” ?
By saying “YOU” , you are also saying “I” and “WE” as well, as in , ” ‘I’ can decide…” , or ” ‘WE’ can decide…” See my point ? You , yourself are pointing out to a “Consciousness” , to a “Self” , just in the way that you composed your sentence above.
It would be the same as saying , “A Self can decide to ….” , or “A Consciousness can decide to… “. It is just the same for all practical purposes. Do you see what I am getting at ? You are using a circular logic that goes back to an “I”. Therefore , you are aware of a “Self” , of a “Thinking identity” = Something which is aware that is aware = A Consciousness = “I”. And just by your OWN grammatical construction , you are falling right back into my syllogism.
For you to build a “mental” framework , you would have to define first , “What is a mind” ? What is a mind , Chris ? What is a mind for you ? Let’s start by doing that, and go from there.
Chris : “The rules don’t even have to be consistent within that framework, they just have to be rules and the more of them, the better.”
Ok. And what do we DO with those rules, and “Who/What” is going to apply such rules ? And “Who/What” set up the rules in the first place ? Answer those questions for me first , would you ?
Chris : “But if we yearn for the truth of consistency then we owe it to ourselves to let the rest of the possibilities in.”
I got you. Be consistent first by answering my questions.
ML
Peter
“Got it. Did you notice that you said , ” ‘YOU’ can ‘DECIDE’ to ‘BUILD’ a mental framework with its own rules” ? Three key words , Chris : “You” , “DECIDE” , and “BUILD”. What/who is “deciding” and “building” , Chris ? Who is “YOU” ?”
My you is not your you.
I am not so sure of that. 🙂
“I am not so sure of that. :)”
Me neither!
“I got you. Be consistent first by answering my questions.”
I get it. Same theism, different day. My you is not your you. It’s not a criticism or anything, it’s just my opinion derived from my understanding of the physics of my world. My physical world seems to encompass more and overlap with others’ (you) (Marildi) (Geir) (and others) spiritual world. For me, your you of spirit is physical to me, even if not recognizably material. When we fracture the English we seem to engender a semantical argument. It doesn’t really mean we mean different things in daily life, nor can we tell the difference.
Chris : “I get it. Same theism, different day.”
Not at all , Chris. More like “Authotheism” , not “Theism” as such :
http://autotheism.blogspot.com/2009/10/whats-it-all-about.html?m=1
Chris : “My you is not your you. It’s not a criticism or anything, it’s just my opinion derived from my understanding of the physics of my world.”
That’s quite all right to differ on that , Chris ; but I understand your views. I know it is not criticism ; it is the way you perceive it which you are totally entitled to.
Chris : “My physical world seems to encompass more and overlap with others’ (you) (Marildi) (Geir) (and others) spiritual world. For me, your you of spirit is physical to me, even if not recognizably material.”
I get it. Don’t share that view ,though, but I do get it. I can see how the Spirit can be considered as “physical” by some , in the QM sense of the world.
Chris : “When we fracture the English we seem to engender a semantical argument. It doesn’t really mean we mean different things in daily life, nor can we tell the difference.”
I got that, thanks.
Peter, you are one polite SOB! 🙂
*like*
Jjjjj , thanks Chris ; most kind. 🙂
“I got you. Be consistent first by answering my questions.”
The main difference is the spiritual arguments seem to have an ethereal vector which leads to no real difference to humanity. The physical argument leads toward increasingly consistent understanding of the world and greater long-term actual comfort (“survival”) for humanity.
Chris : “The main difference is the spiritual arguments seem to have an ethereal vector which leads to no real difference to humanity. The physical argument leads toward increasingly consistent understanding of the world and greater long-term actual comfort (“survival”) for humanity.”
That’s one practical and “real” way to see it , if one equates comfort with, “physical health” , “material possessions” , “entertainment” , “An ‘easier’ life as a human” (cars, technology , worldwide comms, etc) , etc. The problem with that , my dear friend Chris , is that EACH one of those “comforts” are totally perishable ; each one of them are not really “Real” , but just illusions. However , things like REAL spiritual wisdom , the recovery of your TRUE Self and nature , the willingness to be connected with all of Life (the concept of ONENESS) , the total non-identification of Self with bodies or false Selves (Ego-identities) , the attainment of true compassion and empathy ; all of that is nonperishable as it is timeless. And “science” is never ever going to give those to us. Not in a billion years , no. What do you rather choose ,Chris, the Chicken or the Egg ?
“What do you rather choose ,Chris, the Chicken or the Egg ?”
The non dualists are always presenting dichotomies, I don’t get that.
TC : “What do you rather choose ,Chris, the Chicken or the Egg ?”
Chris : “The non dualists are always presenting dichotomies, I don’t get that.”
Jjjjj , perhaps we are. May be this video from Mooji , that Marildi posted for me a while ago , can explain why :
A datum is better understood when compared to another one , usually opposite to it. A person might not understand what “happiness” means , but if compared with “suffering” and defined as a “lack of suffering” , then he/she might get it. “It is like not having any problems or things that are worrying or stressing you” , might “get home”. However, “It is a state of serenity and bliss ; a comfortable existence” , might not.
By “What do you prefer Chris , the Chicken or the Eggs ? , I meant that if at the end, do you prefer to have the “comforts” that science brought you (the “Eggs” ) at the expense of a full spiritual awareness where a full recognition of the true Self is achieved ; or if you prefer that Self recognition and recovery of your TRUE nature as a being (the “Chicken” ) as the priority in your life , but not renouncing to the other “comforts” neither ?
An “Egg” (physical “comforts” ) is perishable on its own , and does not produce anything of real value. However , a “Chicken” (YOU as the creator of things , and as a True rehabilitated Self) , can continuously bring about any comforts he wants. But a non rehabilitated Self is always dependent to some degree on outside sensations to procure his/her happiness and comfort. The only real and lasting comfort comes from within , Chris. All else is perishable. And thus, “The Chicken or the Eggs ?”.
“I got you. Be consistent first by answering my questions.”
In my opinion, the delusion of comfort of religion can never compare to the long term actual and reproducible comfort brought about by science. Yes, Geir, I understood your point about the subjectivity of comfort, so comfort can be an abstract subset of survival but not necessarily a quantifiable comfort as in survival. Example: In teaching my children about success, I did not let comfort become an important short term goal but rather teach it to be the fallout of success.
Chris : “In my opinion, the delusion of comfort of religion can never compare to the long term actual and reproducible comfort brought about by science.”
I totally understand that point. But see my comments regarding that in my previous reply to you. And I was never referring to “Religion” in any of my posts. I was referring to the subject of “Spiritual Awakening” and “Non-dualism”. That isn’t religion as such , but a way of life, not a system of beliefs.
What I cognited recently that most humans are ACTUALLY seeking when they approach any religion , is their own spiritual awakening ; to find and finally meet their real SELVES. Obviously (obvious from my perspective) they are not going to find that with religion, but on the contrary , most religions will only drive them even further away from REAL spiritual awakening. They just become slaves of their own Ego-identities , under the “authority” and influence of other determinisms. The only real Authority is SELF ; there is no other Authority.
Perhaps that’s your protest that I sense so much in your posts regarding religion. Knowing you by examining all your posts , you seems closer to non-dualism that you would care to admit at this point. 🙂 At least that’s what I perceive , as you stress the Awaken/Spirit values a lot , in the essence of your posts. Not trying to sell you anything here , Chris , just pointing out to my observations.
Best
Peter
“you seems closer to non-dualism that you would care to admit at this point. :)”
I am not avoiding admitting anything. Non dualism as I understand it is similar to how I think if you take a reverse vector. Then together you and I can be a complete.
Chris : “I am not avoiding admitting anything. Non dualism as I understand it is similar to how I think if you take a reverse vector. Then together you and I can be a complete.”
I am afraid that I don’t understand what you meant by , “If you take a reverse vector” ?
“Hi, Chris! I hope that life is ok and that your daughter is doing well.”
Peter, Thank you very much and warmly for asking about Jessica. She is great. I have been so worried about her as she was working her way through medical school because it brought her no joy. She really suffered. But for these past years as she worked her way through being a resident doctor (apprentice) she has steadily risen above that low state, loves her patients, loves general practice, and become happy and joyful once again. She finishes her residency this coming Summer, then together with her great, nice guy husband and two children is moving to Phoenix to be near her old dad and step-mom. It is a joyous time for me as well even thinking about it is such an oasis in my mind which I cannot describe very well except to say that is where I think about things! hahaha!
I got all your comms , Chris ; thanks! I’ll answer them all tonight.
Best,
Peter
Chris : “Peter, Thank you very much and warmly for asking about Jessica. ”
You are most welcome , Chris!
Chris : “She is great. I have been so worried about her as she was working her way through medical school because it brought her no joy. She really suffered. ”
I am really sorry to hear that.
Chris : “But for these past years as she worked her way through being a resident doctor (apprentice) she has steadily risen above that low state, loves her patients, loves general practice, and become happy and joyful once again. ”
I am very happy that she could finally find her balance.
Chris : “She finishes her residency this coming Summer, then together with her great, nice guy husband and two children is moving to Phoenix to be near her old dad and step-mom.”
Wow! , Chris ; that’ great news indeed! There is absolutely nothing that can compare with the great joy to be near our children. All I could think of is about the day – which I hope will not be longer than the next 6-8 months – in which I’ll be relocated in Florida next to my beautiful Princess. No possible “Freedom” can compare to that.
Chris ” “It is a joyous time for me as well even thinking about it is such an oasis in my mind which I cannot describe very well except to say that is where I think about things! hahaha!”
Wow! , I am so , so happy for you, and believe me ; I DO understand how that must feel. I totally duplicate you on that. That’s why I said that you seem to be like a natural non-dualist! 🙂 That immense joy can only come from within a very kind heart. 🙂 God bless your daughter , Chris!
Its no less a person than Sam Harris the well known atheist.
Determinism rules in his mind and all our choices are predetermined by our past. He explains all this on utube but its tricky stuff for me to follow.
We don’t know that.
“The rest is dead to itself.”
Without quibbling about what you mean, this statement seems patently false to me.
I admit I’m not always clear in my endeavour to be brief, not a bad fault.
I believe only Humans have self-awareness and a conscience.
In other words they are morally aware and have a sense of good and evil.
It would be easy to confuse this with consciousness. I believe all living things are conscious and become more so as we move up the tree of life.
But they are all dead to themselves they have no metaconsciousness.
You may be interested in the theory of Julian Jaynes who believed we did not become self conscious until about three thousand years ago.
Before that time the human race had a bicameral mind.
Jaynes claims to have solved the problem of consciousness which we struggle with along with all the experts.
“I believe all living things are conscious and become more so as we move up the tree of life.”
Would I understand you correctly if I said you believe that self awareness and constructs like a conscience evolve upward in complexity through the Darwinian evolutionary chain? Rather than Man is a fallen god, circling the toilet and on his way down and out the bottom?
Sorry I’m not too good at explanations.
Consciousness is very different to self awareness. We (mankind) are conscious of our consciousness the rest of life is not self -aware. A human baby is conscious but not self-aware. I don’t know when or how we became self-aware adults. But it resulted in the conscience and self judgement. This led to morals and religion.
There is a huge gulf between animals and mankind . Alfred Wallace who also discovered evolution did not believd natural selection could produce the mind of man. Look up Wallace’s Paradox.
I do not know if there is super self – awareness.
I do believe in an absolute truth – Existence. And Existence has the capacity to be aware.
I waited and thought about your statement, then decided I don’t know what you mean, could you embellish?
Okay. I was using the word “Existence” to mean the whole universe, whether or not we divide it into the physical and the spiritual. Nondualists say everything is spirit and that what we call physical is yet the manifestation of spirit. (Even LRH stated that “MEST is alive.” btw, in the lecture series “Admiration and the Renaissance of Beingness.”)
As for the capacity to be aware, it’s easy to see that living organisms are able to perceive – such as a plant bending towards the sun. In that sense, they are aware. Actually, even cells will move away from a source of smoke, which is awareness.
But I think kaptonok made a valid point that only humans are aware of being aware and have a conscience. This is because humans have a mind that thinks in dichotomies and tells them what is right and what is wrong – i.e. good/evil and other dichotomies (or dualities). Generally speaking, animals do not have this type of mind.
There is also the dichotomy of self/other, which infants have to learn (also pointed out by kaptonok). This is part of the ego and seems to tell us that it’s only a consideration. It might also have something to do with why we are aware of being aware. Just now thought of that.
” This is part of the ego and seems to tell us that it’s only a consideration.”
Well, you got me on that one as i thought it was Vinay telling us it was “only a consideration.” LOL
But kidding aside, I didn’t understand –You’ve posted this and at least one other time this week about ego and I’m trying to understand how you think about ego.
I am getting a better feel for your use of non dual and would now say that i agree “in reverse” meaning that my physics encompasses “the spiritual” meaning the non- material, if I may make that distinction.
Chris: “Well, you got me on that one as i thought it was Vinay telling us it was ‘only a consideration.’ LOL”
Ha ha! That word will always have an association with Vinnie. 🙂
What’s even funnier is that I think he is a non-dualist – as in both Hinduism (I believe) and Buddhism – and now that I understand non-dualism better, I get where he is coming from. Don’t laugh! 😀
“I’m trying to understand how you think about ego.”
Okay, this is from Wikipedia:
Ego may refer to:
– Ego (Freudian), one of the three constructs in Sigmund Freud’s structural model of the psyche
– Self-concept
– I (pronoun)
– Egotism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego
The way the word “ego” is used in non-dualism is the second way above – “self-concept”. Here’s a quote from the WKP article on on “Self-concept.”
“One’s self-concept (also called self-construction, self-identity, self-perspective or self-structure) is a collection of beliefs about oneself[that includes elements such as academic performance,gender roles, sexuality, and racial identity. Generally, self-concept embodies the answer to ‘Who am I?’ ”
In non-dualism, added to the above is the idea that the ego-self is conditioned, and that when a person breaks free of this conditioning, there comes about an awareness of “true self” – which is an immortal absolute. Per my understanding, it can also be the other way around: That is, a sudden or gradual awareness of the true self can cause a person to see ego for what it is – simply an acquired “self” that has no absolute reality, only a relative one.
Chris: “I am getting a better feel for your use of non-dual and would now say that i agree ‘in reverse’ meaning that my physics encompasses ‘the spiritual’ meaning the non- material, if I may make that distinction.”
I actually have no problem with that viewpoint. The video I posted on this thread last night, titled “Quantum Hologram,” supports your view very well, IMO, as it explains even so-called spiritual phenomena in physics terms
For me, it’s just semantics as to whether we say “All is physical” or “All is spirit” – except that when people Awaken they consistently and uniformly have a whole new awareness, which is to become aware of the absolute reality described in my comment above.
(And no Vinnie cracks about the word “consistent”! 😀 )
“Still better sports than war.”
And when war is gone and peace reigns supreme and each person is given an annual stipend to buy sustenance and when illness is conquered and when all mankind lives healthily to 150 years old, then will that be better? With respect, I am not picking on you, I am picking apart my own thoughts on these points that you are quite rightly making.
I do not believe that will happen we are already on a knife edge, but let us suppose it could happen.
Your question needs restating.
Is any progress worth its salt?
Are we any happier than cave man ?
If we judge progress by its ability to make us happy it is worthless.
‘Better to have loved and lossed than never to have loved at all.’
Now there we have condensed wisdom.
‘ Evil is a natural human phenomenon , and some level of predatory violence is innate in us.’ Sam Harris
Though I agree with this statement, violence seems to be an relative abstraction. Meaning that at the cellular level, a hang nail is “violent.” Again, not picking on you, we’re just commenting here.
You can pick on me all you please I won’t be offened its only personel abuse that I find unacceptable.
The reason is that cells ,bacteria , viruses ,tigers,crocodiles , have no morals and violence is a moral concept.
Sam Harris the well known atheist spent sometime wrestling with the moral nature of man just as we all do.
” . . . its only personel abuse that I find unacceptable.”
Great! Thank you.
What should we do to have a decent game to come back to? Well, it depends.
What you consider to be decent ? May be the outer space aliens ( who are already here ) don’t know what to do with this creative human species and are just looking in awe towards a very interesting artwork in process. And I say: so you feel bored, go hunting a big lion. dive amongst big sharks. Straight date the boy, girl or trans of your dreams, or,or,or…but do not cease to be creative.
The Fermi Paradox is a result of the Chuck Norris reality.
http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/chuck-norris-top-50-facts
Geir : “What should we do to have a decent game to come back to?”
You forget about “Purposes” for a while , Geir, and works towards finding “Self”. That’s what you do to “have a decent game to come back to”.
We can start by re-defining “Purpose” in a new unit of time , and from a different perspective than the one you hold to in PT. “Purpose” can be seen as a “Target towards attainment” , which is finite and “perishable” ; or it can be seen as a “Continuous creation as the manifestation of your TRUE Self”. In the former definition, there is only emptiness after “realization”. In the latter definition , the is a “Timeless Joy” , the “Joy of Creating” in itself which represent our TRUE nature as spirits. And that Joy is everlasting ; it is unperishable. It is incapable of “boredom”.
I used to look at the world of Spirituality , of Mysticism and the subject of “Spiritual Awakening” as this world full of mumbo-jumbo individuals misguidedly searching for a VERY boring state of “Nirvana” and “Oneness”. I used to think of it as a state of “Joyful boring inaction” totally unattached to real life, to existence , totally lacking “Adventure” and excitement. But then a beautiful shinning angel that I’ve come to love and admire (she knows who she is) , started me on this path, and I discovered how WRONG and misguided those views and considerations had always been.
I had lived this life of a constant search for “Purposes”. “What am I doing here ? ; what are my purposes in life ? ; what should I strive for ? ; what goals should I set to meet ?” ; those were the thoughts that occupied my mind since I can remember. That’s why I arrived in Scn in the first place ; to search for “Meaning” , for “Feeling attached and interested in existence” , which I had never felt , save for very brief periods here and there. I wanted to feel “Adventure” , the thrill of it all, the “Spirit of play”. I did ALL I could with Scientology, but even though I did achieved many interesting abilities and understandings of life with it , that BIG EMPTINESS still remained in my heart. Something was lacking , but I didn’t know what it was. “I ‘MUST, MUST’ find my ‘Purpose’ in life to find happiness, damn it” , was the thought visiting me every day.
Then I discovered the world of non-dualism – which I had ignored all my life , specially due to undue influences from LRH/Scn – and everything changed. And Marildi is totally to blame for that. This “responsibility” is one that you will have to accept , shinning angel. You’ll not escape this one that easily , I am afraid. 🙂
This video is for you to watch , Geir. I found so much Truth in it ; a Truth that have relaxed me So, So much in this subject of “Purposes in life”. So I wanted to share it with you as an Easter Day gift for giving us such a Theta space in which to have so wonderful comm exchanges. Here is Mooji’s, “Can Self Have a Normal Life ?” :
In particular , I wanted to emphasize a few quotes from that video :
“Sometimes – I would tell you – a sage, an awaken being , an awaken mind , enjoys more than an unawaken mind. The one who is free , enjoys this existence more than the one who is bound. Because there are no attachments ; there are no identifications ; there is no Ego. There is no “I need to be (become) someone important’. ”
“Something relaxes into …. the unfolding stream of life. Let’s go to the dance of existence, and smoothly without making a big deal of it – it is the natural way”.
“Why are you (one) attracted to Truth ? Because you find peace in your heart. You find ‘here I am most free , most free’. No bound , not bound , by rules and regulations [ I ‘must’ have a purpose ] but to guidances that bring you back into your natural freedom”.
“Stop trying to make a life – BE life – don’t try to make life. You’ll discover soon (that) there is only Life. There is no ‘individual living it’- you ARE Life. ”
There is a LOT of Truth to be found within those quotes from Mooji. A truth you won’t find “Out there” , but that had always lived within yourself, in what you REALLY are.
I hope that any of this make any sense to you , Geir , as it did to me. I found a relaxation of beingness with it ; something I never found with Scientology. I found a rekindled love for life. A sense of beauty and adventure that I had lost. I still have a VERY long path to walk on , and many unanswered questions to life ; but my God , what a great start it has been!!!
And to finish , read the following quotes while sitting next to your beloved wife in this Ester Day , listening to this beautiful piece from Beethoven titled , “Melody of the Tears”. Comments within brackets are mine. Enjoy :
“Just all these thoughts [ “What should we do to have a decent game to come back to ?” ] , they somehow bring in a kind of claustrophobia into your beingness that you don’t need ; and SOON they will be off the moment you realize that you don’t need them – they will be off”.
“When you realize that you are THAT which is beyond change but in whose presence the change plays and manifest ; then you are really back HOME [ that which is really YOU ] ; you are back in your real place. ” [ Mooji – excerpt from “Garland to the Self” , 6 Feb 2010 ]
Happy Easter to ALL.
Love,
Davis
Now who’s inspiring whom? 😉
This was the perfect post for Easter Sunday – all about resurrection.
resurrect: to raise from the dead; bring to life again
Perfect Mooji video too, and also the music choice. ❤
Thank you, Davis (aka Peter)
“Now who’s inspiring whom? 😉 ”
🙂 Sweet girl!
“This was the perfect post for Easter Sunday – all about resurrection.”
“resurrect: to raise from the dead; bring to life again”
That’s a VERY lovely and truthful/accurate description of it , Sunshine! Like the Phoenix Bird rising from the ashes of the burnt Ego(s) 🙂
“Perfect Mooji video too, and also the music choice. ❤ "
Thanks , Marildi! ; I am glad you liked it!
"Thank you, Davis (aka Peter)"
Thank YOU , Shinning Angel. ❤ 🙂
Your end question is a leading question.
Here is your end question:
“What should we do to have a decent game to come back to?”
That question is also the Sea Org Motto, namely, we come back.
How do we know “we come back”?
Marty and Sarge said Hubbard said he wasn’t coming back, and he Hubbard was going to circle a star to rehabilitate himself, but he wasn’t coming back.
It’s a question leading to discussion 🙂
true dat, and so I did comment. LOL, not at you, just laughter.
You know who Ron is, you just gave a talk to students. Laughter, you funny Geir.
As an aside, your much earlier posts on scientology did help two people I know, so I give kudos to you and thank you for that.
Regards your OP, comfort zone and freedom, barriers. Didn’t Ron say there is freedom amongst barriers. It’s a funny thing, scientology actually traps people, IMHO, (why because there are no OT levels above OT8, not that I believe there are OT’s, just say’in).
I’ve been reading some spark notes on Aristole,
http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/aristotle/section8.rhtml
“Aristotle defines the supreme good as an activity of the rational soul in accordance with virtue. Virtue for the Greeks is equivalent to excellence.”
Well, I don’t know, but compare comfort zone & purpose to good and virtue, both virtue and good defined by Aristotle.
I not an expert here, just looking at other philosophies.
“I believe we have an inherent drive, a purpose. Any purpose.
A purpose needs a game. A game needs a purpose.
Without barriers, there is no drive and without a drive there is no life.”
——————-
Sure, any game has a purpose, and that is to win the game.
Good ole Ron won his game you might say, to get scientology as a game.
But, Ron never did win his game, he was alone. I guess that was his game, to make his name known,
Now, making one’s name known can fall into the name as being good, or bad.
Is Ron’s name known as good or bad?
Who is this Ron?
It’s a PR World, as Ron says.
How important is Ron compared to you?
These Axioms/Assumptions about Life – an analysis just based on my own perspective and observations , not at all intended as absolute truths – might shed some light into the OP.
1. Life is basically a Static. A “Static” , even though not “moving” in the physical sense of the word, is capable of observing and causing motion from its inherent “Stillness”.
2. “Stillness” , “Silence” , “Consideration” , and “Aesthetic” are the four basic qualities of the Static. In a true Stillness and Silence the true “I” reveals itself, and all Doubt perishes.
2a. Stillness and Silence are desired by the Static.
2b. There can be movement , interest, change, and art (in ALL forms) in Stillness and Silence.
3. The Static is capable of unlimited continuous Interest for existence. Interest is reduced by Identification and Separateness.
4. The Static possesses the “Spirit of Play”.
5. The mind is a servomechanism to “handle” the “problems” of existence by creating arbitrary identities. The mind was created to maintain a state of “Separateness”.
6. All problems in life , suffering , unhappiness, disinterest , doubt , indecision ; stem directly from “Separateness”.
7. This is basically a 4-pole universe consisting of negative, positive, positive-negative, and negative-positive . A combination of them creates a flow or stop one. There is no flow w/out 4 poles.
8. Life is only concerned with four decisions and with 4 decisions only : “Good” , “Bad” , “Beautiful” , and “Ugly”. All actions in life fall into those categories. Nothing is outside of those.
9. “Good” , “Bad” , “Beautiful” and “Ugly” , each form a spectrum that goes from zero to an unreachable absolute. In going away from the center of the spectrum, either to the left or to the right of it , actions and Beingness occur. In staying at the center of the spectrum , we find doubt , indecision, decisions not to Be, and thus , inaction and timelessness.
And this piece reminds me of the beauty of “Silence”. Beethoven’s “Silence” :
“1. Life is basically a Static. A “Static” , even though not “moving” in the physical sense of the word, is capable of observing and causing motion from its inherent “Stillness”.”
That statement does not ring true to me.
I’d say life for a human being is motion and observation and reasoning.
Life for a plant or flower is not motion or reasoning, The plant life cannot reason or move. But how does the plant procreate?
TC : “1. Life is basically a Static. A ‘Static’ , even though not ‘moving’ in the physical sense of the word, is capable of observing and causing motion from its inherent ‘Stillness’.”
Singanddanceall : “That statement does not ring true to me.”
Ok , I understand. Thanks for the comm , and I am happy to exchange with you here. How are you doing ?
Singanddanceall : “I’d say life for a human being is motion and observation and reasoning.”
I totally agree with that. I was referring to the “Spirit” when I said “Life” , not the composite of Theta/Mest that we normally call “Life” = a human , an animal , or a plant.
Singanddanceall : “Life for a plant or flower is not motion or reasoning, The plant life cannot reason or move. But how does the plant procreate?”
I see your point. They procreate by codified instructions as part of the physical manifestation of Life : the DNA. How does that exactly works at the Theta/Spirit level , I have ABSOLUTELY no clue at all. But it is a FASCINATING subject , though. 🙂 They don’t move , nor “reason” (that’s debatible, though) , but they do procreate, procure/produce food, breathe, grows and decay ; a biological definition for “Life”.
Nice exchanging with you , Singandanceall. My name is Peter, by the way.
Gee , I forgot the most important Axiom/Assumption of all ; #10 which says : “The Static is capable of Free Will as its most basic inherent nature. The expansiveness and true nature of Free Will is not fully realized until a true Stillness and Silence are achieved.
Today I feel very romantic and grateful towards life. I feel very grateful for having so many great individuals as friends in life and here in this blog , and for having a very kind and humble family that taught me kindness and love towards my fellow beings. I feel grateful for being able to experience the beauty of a song , of a poem , of an enchanting painting. I feel very grateful for being able to experience the greatness and expansiveness of being ALIVE. I feel very grateful as there is always the opporunity for ALL of us to turn our lives around , and go towards Freedom no matter the state of beingness and operation in which we might find ourselves in. I feel very grateful as compassion, mercy and forgiveness are always available to us even when some times, it all seems evidently without hope and future for us. I feel very grateful to be aware and to exist.
And so I wanted to take this opportunity to express myself with a song , before this heart burst into pieces with all these strong emotions that it is keeping inside. A song that expresses how incredible and madly in love I am with MUSIC and with LIFE itself ; my best friends. Perhaps “COMFORT” is not such a “dangerous” emotional state , after all , Geir. :)))
I know that Marildi is going to like this one , as she have commented how much she likes these type of Spanish songs.
And incredible group of 3 tenors (and one Pop singer) called “IL Divo” – a multinational classical crossover group – recorded what I consider one of the most beautiful and romantic songs of all times. It was sang by them in the “Language of Romanticism” , as they themselves and many others have called it : SPANISH , “The Language of Cervantes”. The melody of this song , its beautiful romanticism portrayed by its lyric , IL Divo’s masterful performance , and the great romantic beautiful sounds of the Spanish guitar ; literally make the blood inside my veins to burn with passion every time I listen to this song. Love is indeed the greatest of the human experiences ; the universal solvent ; the best friend ; the perfect balm for a lonely soul. And now , without further ado , here is IL Divo’s “Si Tu Me Amas” (“If You Love Me”) :
Si Tu Me Amas ( If You Love Me)
By IL Divo (Madrid , Spain)
Sólo en ti (only in you )
Por siempre seré feliz (Will I be happy forever)
Historia que presentí (A story that I sensed)
Mucho antes de vivir en mi (Long before you lived in me)
Porque sólo en ti (Because only in you)
Encuentro lo que ayer perdí ( I find what I lost yesterday)
Tu eres mi existir ( You are my whole existence)
Mi gran felicidad (My greatest happiness)
(Chorus)
Si tu me amas yo seré (If you love be I will be)
Esa esperanza, que jamás (That hope that will never)
Se querrá morir (want to die)
En este amor sin fin (In this love without end)
Tu serás siempre mi alma (You will always be my soul)
(Slow part , again)
Despertar (Awakenings)
Paraísos de pasión y paz (Paradises of passion and peace)
Sé que sólo los podré encontrar (I know that I will only be able to find them)
En mis días junto a ti. (In my days besides you)
(Chorus – all together)
Si tu me amas yo seré (If you love be I will be)
Esa esperanza que jamás (That hope that will never)
Se querrá morir (want to die)
En este amor sin fin (In this love without end)
Tu serás siempre mi alma (You will always be my soul)
[Spanish guitar solo]
[ Chorus – together – high pitch ]
Si tu me amas yo seré (If you love be I will be)
Esa esperanza, que jamás (That hope that will never)
Se querrá morir (want to die)
En este amor sin fin (In this love without end)
Tu serás siempre mi alma (You will always be my soul)
(Slow part – end )
Jamas querrá morir [it (love) will never want to die]
Abrazame hasta el fin [hug me until the end (of time) ]
volaré si me amas (I’ll be able to fly if you love me)
Haces realidad (You make come true )
La magia de sonar (The magic of dreaming)
Volaré si tu me amas. (I’ll be able to fly if you love me)
Beautiful beautiful beautiful… ❤ ❤ ❤
I felt your joy, too. In return, I’m sending hugs! 🙂
Sweet Sunshine! , thanks! I am sending hugs too. 🙂
>—-(^_^)—-:D< , ((()))
Thanks , Shinning Angel! ; I am glad you liked it. ❤ ❤ ❤