A rather odd exchange with a scientologist

Most exchanges I have with current scientologists follow a predictable pattern. A scientologist needs to stay out of trouble – by any means. One should not look at any critical information, not surf around on the Internet where critical information could pop up, not engage in conversations with people who could be critical of Scientology and certainly not talk to anyone shunned by their church. When a Scientologist contacts me, the exchange usually dies out after a couple of messages.

Not this one. This is an odd one out, and I would appreciate your help in understanding what is going on in this e-mail exchange.

It started out with a question from “E”:

How is your FSMing going?

An FSM cycle I initiated:
After hearing of his breakup from his then wife Jodhi Meares, I wrote a letter to James Packer (a multi-billionaire Australian businessman) about Scientology (included in the letter was material about services available at the Flag Land Base and an FSM selection slip for services at Flag). I sent a copy of the selection slip to Flag via AOSH ANZO. The next I heard was that James was receiving Scientology services in Sydney and later he stated that the services he’d received had been “helpful.”

Best wishes for 2016

From the question “How is your FSMing going?”, we get this conversation:

G: Not too well :-/

E: What barrier have you hit?

G: My own interest in FSM’ing 🙂 Two weeks after I attested OT 8 in 2006, I met with David Miscavige. That meeting helped me resolve many questions I had during my 25 years as a Scientologist. I then left the church. I found out that there are more Class XII auditors outside the church than inside – as most of the Class XIIs trained directly by LRH was expelled by the current management. Having discovered this, I was able to do my L11 and to fantastic wins.

E: Was there a time prior to your losing interest, where you were winning as an FSM?
What was discussed at the meeting (questions that were asked, replies that were given, etc)?

G: I used to be the top FSM in Norway, but after meeting David Miscavige in person, I decided that I would not again FSM for the church. Basically he violated a dozen or so LRH policies right in front of me. He tried to recruit me as the ED of Oslo Org right there on the spot and at the same time sacking the current ED which he admitted that he didn’t know. The way that conversation went was just about the weirdest I have experienced. I realized the church was indeed run by a dictator. If you want more details, I can give you more,


  1. When exactly it occurred (date).
  2. Where it took place (location).
  3. What time of the day or night it was held at.
  4. What day of the week it occurred on.
  5. If it took place inside a building (which one).
  6. If it took place inside an office (describe the interior).
  7. Whether you were given any refreshments (coffee).
  8. Whether anyone else was present.
  9. Whether the door was shut.
  10. Whether you were summoned to the meeting.
  11. The amount of time (notice) you were given to show up.
  12. Whether you were escorted to the meeting.
  13. The duration of the meeting.
  14. Whether anyone was outside the door when you left.
  15. Any other details that come to mind.

G: Wow – that was an interesting list 🙂
You are thorough. It would be interesting to see the same thoroughness applied to a look into the church statistics. Like the number of Scientologists in the world.
Let me give you the story of my meeting with David Miscavige: https://elysianchakorta.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/when-i-met-david-miscavige/
(I also attached my “doubt write-up“)

E: Re the recruitment method which David Miscavige (unsuccessfully) attempted on you: He no doubt would have found this particular approach successful at various times in the past, thus he adopted it as his SOP (standard operating procedure).

G: No doubt.
What do you think of his approach?
And what do you think about the content of my Doubt write-up?

E: I prefer to look at the incident from the viewpoint of observing the technique you use to personally handle certain types of people. Let’s say I’m your boxing coach and I want you to be able to handle every type of opponent you meet in the ring with style, effectiveness and finesse and not let any of them land a punch on you. What I do after the match, is I ask you how you felt you went. You are really the final arbiter of how you performed. You determine whether you performed at 100 percent, 75 percent, 50 percent or 25 percent. Then — if you believe you fared below 100 percent — we look at what you could have done to fare better.

G: In the real world outside of Scientology – you are absolutely right. And this is exactly how I view that it should be done. See the attached article, it thoroughly validates your viewpoint. But in the world of Scientology, one is supposed to follow LRH’s word to the letter – especially the management of the church. And here is where the glaring outpoint with that meeting really shines.

Then out of the blue, he sent me this:


G: Before you send this anywhere, you should read the attached.

Then I sent him both Six months in the open and From Independent Scientologist to just me. He then read “all of Six months” and “most of Just me”, and sent me this:

Prerequisites to study
The most important prerequisite as far as I’m concerned is a Non-Oppressive Environment in which to study. As far as I’m concerned they can stick their f***ing academies up their asses. I FUCKEN HATE studying in Scn academies. Let me repeat that in case someone never heard what I said: I FUCKING HATE STUDYING IN SCIENTOLOGY ACADEMIES. I like to study WHERE I want and WHEN I want, without some fuckwit pissing me off with their bullshit. My favourite place to study is lying down in the park under a shady tree. Then i might walk off and go and buy an icecream. Then, there is a possibility that I will go back to study half-an-hour later — WHEN I FRIGGEN WELL FEEL LIKE IT. And if I don’t feel like it, I won’t. I hate being bugged by idiots around me, pestering and annoying me when I’m studying. It sends me wild. I am usually a fairly calm and easygoing person, but if there is one thing that brings out a FULLBLOWN RAGE in me it’s anything to do with being pestered while I’m studying. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

And then he actually sent his CSW to “David Miscavige, Chairman of the Board” via info@scientology.org – asking him to take me on as his personal recruitment consultant.

G: Please help me understand; What is your ambition in doing this? What were your thoughts after reading the two books I sent you?

He then sent me this link and this link, before I reiterated what he thought about my two books, whereupon he answered:

E: You are not OT VIII — you’re a False Declare.

G: That is a one way to deal with the cognitive dissonance. So, you think the tech in the church is faulty, since it would allow a person to go through all the Bridge with thousands upon thousands of hours of auditing and sec checks and courses and let through a false OT VIII declare?
Also, what would be your idea of a “correct” OT VIII?

E: It’s a matter of mathematics. Absolutes are unobtainable. There is always a blacker black or a whiter shade of white. The delivery lines have been under continual improvement from the day LRH gave his first session. There are so many variables involved, so many areas where breakdowns can occur. It’s not a matter of the tech being faulty; the delivery of it can always be more polished. Training has been under continual improvement. The ability of those working on the lines can always be lifted up a further notch. If you wish to disagree with the TRUTH I have revealed to you, fine.

G: What is the “TRUTH” you have presented to me?

And that is my answer to “E” just this morning.

What is your take on this exchange?

Update 2016-01-18:

The exchange continued…

E: I stated that: You are not OT VIII — you’re a False Declare. I also stated: If you wish to disagree with the TRUTH I have revealed to you,
fine. In other words, if it is your TRUTH that you ARE an OT VIII completion, well that is your truth.
You are free to keep on believing your own bullshit till the end of time if you so wish.

G: Really E, I don’t care if I am an OT 8 or not. I am who I am and I am jolly happy to be just that, me 🙂
You seem aggravated by this conversation. Why? Is it because I do not conform to your expectation of an OT 8? Is it because you sent that CSW
even after having read all that I sent you? Is it that you admitted to hating to study in a Scientology Academy? Or is it something else? Please
enlighten me. Or better, gather the courage to speak your mind in the open by commenting on my blog or on that Facebook discussion.
I still find this exchange of ours interesting. You may want to follow (and comment) on this: https://isene.me/2016/01/17/odd-exchange/. In addition to my blog, you may want to check out my Facebook page where another set of comments regarding our exchange is unfolding.

This has been an interesting exchange. But I am struggling to understand your motivations. And since you didn’t seem willing to share your reasons for our exchange, or at least didn’t answer my questions about it, I thought I would get help from others. If you have balls, you can speak your mind on my blog or on that facebook discussion.

E: “I don’t care if I am an OT 8 or not”… No OT VIII completion would ever say such a thing. You are swimming in so much unhandled stuff that it’s not funny. Please send me the name of the person who signed off on your “OT VIII” cycle — so I can add them to the report I’m writing up.

G: You don’t know much about the upper bridge. There are literally dozens of people involved in verifying a person through OT VII and VIII. I spent 2,5 years auditing on OT VII with 4-6 sessions every day. And then there was the 6-month refreshers at Flag with verifications through auditing and sec checks and the course room. There were my supervisors, the Cramming Officer, the Qual Consultant, The Qual Sec, The D of P, The auditors, the FES-ers, Ethics Officer, Lead Ethics Officer and even the RTC was involved.

The OT VII End Phenomena Check is the most thorough action on the bridge with lots of people involved in seeing it through with all sessions video taped and checked by RTC. In itself it contains a huge Sec Check. Then there was the Sec Check for leaving Flag and then there was the Mother Of All Sec Checks… the OT VIII Sec Check aboard the Freewinds. Then there was the OT VIII cycle verified by the most highly trained and then there was another Sec Check. So, aboard the Freewinds for OT VIII, you have another set of MAA, Supervisor, D of T, D of P, auditors, Qual… you name it. You may start counting names 🙂
You see, I discovered that the whole concept of the OT III case with Body Thetans and Clusters and the story about the Galactic Overlord Xenu is wrong. It is fiction. What we audited on these upper levels are not BTs – it is our own case. It is not separate identities that is beyond our creation, it is case purely of our own making. Now That is taking real responsibility for one’s own stuff. LRH tried to blame other beings. That may be one reason why he died as a mentally crippled man full of neurosis and using a psych drug before he died.
It seems you are having a rough time with our exchange. You don’t answer my questions. I answer your questions. Why this one-sided conversation?

Update 2016-01-19:

E: Then send me the names of ALL OF THEM — so I can add the lot of them to the report I’m writing up about your botched up cycle, in order to get them handled. No OT VIII “completion” should hereafter be allowed off the ship, to turn out like the piece of shit that you ended up as.

G: I cannot possibly remember the more than 50 names involved – many of the names I never even got (they were post names behind the scenes. And why
should I even try to remember? The church is disintegrating as we speak. There are less than 40 000 scientologists world wide and it is shrinking.
People are leaving the SO like never before. There isn’t much left to be corrected in the way it needs correcting. What needs correcting is David
Miscavige and his few minions. Remember, he was the one that wanted to put me on post as the ED of Oslo Org only two weeks after that “botched up
cycle” – so make sure to include him in that report. Also include yourself.

E: Would it be correct to say that you felt okay about OT VIII, right up until you returned for the OT Ambassadors photo shoot where the incident with Miscavige took place and something keyed-in?

G: No. Nothing keyed in. I’m jolly happy about all my services. But the fact of the matter is that the church is run by a dictator who physically abuses his juniors. And, as I told you, LRH got much of the upper bridge wrong. It works quite well, but not for the reasons you are told.

E: When exactly did you come to this conclusion?

G: After about 1000 hours of research – including interviewing people who had been physically abused by Miscavige and people who saw others get beaten.

In this last round of exchange, E also tells me something personal, upon which I answer:

G: As you know, I successfully coach people in all walks of life. I would love to help if I could. Let me know.

Hubbard on “power”

From a technical bulleting dated 10 August 1982 titled, “OT maxims”, we find:

THE POWER (defined as light-year kilo-tons per microsecond) OF A THETAN IS MEASURED BY NOTHING ELSE THAN THE DISTANCE (defined as spherical spatial length) AROUND HIM IN HIS ENVIRONMENT THAT HE CAN CONTROL.

Now this is one of those quotes that people in the church read, clear every word of and even make a demonstration using colored clay figures, and then end up not understanding what it means. I know I did.

So I have a challenge for you. Try making sense of the above quote and let me know what you end up with.

Did Scientology have a positive impact on their lives?

I want to make a story about the successful people in Scientology. Those people who became truly successful as a result of Scientology.

It was 2005 and I was having a coffee down town with an old school mate of mine that was now a journalist for the national broadcasting corporation of Norway. He looked expectingly at me while I was desperately trying to come up with such people.

I was rummaging my mind while thinking “Crap! I can’t find any 😦 Let me think… let – me – think – – – Damn!“, and then I said “Interesting angle. I’ll think about it and get back to you.

My friend was serious. He wanted to balance the constant negative press by a surprising angle on Scientology where he would portray the really successful scientologists, of which he apparently thought there were quite a few. I couldn’t think of any in Norway. Or Scandinavia. Or any I personally knew anywhere in the world. Sure, there were some with average success here and there, but no one that stood out as remarkable. None.

I never got back to the guy. Until I left the church in 2009 and told him I had a story for him.

This question about the actual success of Scientology bugged me for quite a while. I wrote a blog post three years ago titled, “Where are the amazing people?“. And the usual discussion ensued including justifications of how that is not a relevant question or what one mean by “amazing” and other nitpicking points. But the main point remains: Scientology does not seem to produce anything out of the ordinary in terms of good life or skills or amazingness.

Today I sat down, took a good hard look at the people I have known in Scientology. I decided to make a list of people I have known well in Scientology and how Scientology has impacted their lives. The first 50 people that popped to my mind, only the people I have known for years and where I could clearly see how Scientology has affected them. They come from all walks of life – from house wives and business people to former drug users and average Joe. I put the names into three categories:

  1. Scientology had a positive impact on their lives
  2. Scientology had no significant positive or negative impact on their lives
  3. Scientology had a negative impact on their lives

I was somewhat surprised when I summarized the results.


I then looked at categories 1 and 3 to sift out those who had life-changing gains from Scientology and those who had life-ruining crashes from Scientology. The result was pretty grim.


A couple of notes about the above:

  • Of those that have had awesome improvements in their lives, 80% came into Scientology with a life in ruins
  • Of those that had their lives ruined through Scientology, 86% had an average life when they got in

Almost all (90%) of the list of people have lived a somewhat sheltered life on the fringe of the Scientology empire here in the Land of Santa.

From my experience, if you become involved with the Church of Scientology, there are some statistics you should be aware of:

  • There is a 20% chance that Scientology will improve your life overall
  • There is a 64% chance that Scientology will negatively affect your life
  • The chance that Scientology will dramatically improve your life is 10%
  • The chance that Scientology will ruin your life is 14%
  • You a have 40% greater chance of having your life ruined than dramatically improved
  • If your life is not already in shambles, your chance of having your life ruined is much greater than having it greatly improved through Scientology

While I do not know how the statistics are for Scientology delivered outside the Church, I suspect it is better. Simply because one does not have the Nazi regime, the thought police and the incessant craving for your time and money. I would be interested in hearing your own honest statistics, both from people you know having gotten Scientology in the Church and independently.

Scientology End Phenomena

Scientology offers a huge breadth of tools, processes and levels aimed at increasing a person’s awareness of himself and his environment.

For every process or level, there is an “End Phenomena” (EP) that defines what that action is supposed to achieve.

The person (“pc” = “pre-clear” = a person on his way up the levels to “Clear”) will exhibit some evidence that the EP has been reached. This is accompanied by some specific reactions on the “E-meter” (the device used to measure the body’s electrical resistance).

END PHENOMENA is defined as “those indicators in the pc and meter which show that a chain or process is ended”.(L. Ron Hubbard)

Most of the EPs in Scientology is fairly easy, subjective and “feel-good”. Others are more “hard core” and objectively verifiable.

These “objective EPs” can be rather tough to verify. Some are plain impossible. Still we see people attest to having achieved these impossible EPs every day – even though the person must know they cannot have achieved such a state. One may wonder why, and this is up for discussion here.

Let us take but a few examples.

PTS Rundown: The EP is a PC who is getting and keeping case gains and never again rollercoasters.

“Case gains” means positive progress in Scientology. “Rollercoaster” means to vacillate in mood, being happy, then sad, etc for no obvious reason. If the above EP was in fact true, it would have cured mankind of one of the most common mental ills forever by the use of that small Scientology action (perhaps 10-50 hours of auditing/processing).

Or how about the EP of “Grade 0, “Communications release”:

Ability to communicate freely with anyone on any subject.

Or how about the professional communications course (the Pro TRs, “TRs” = “Training Routines”):

A Professional auditor who with comm handling alone can keep a pc interested in his own case and willing to talk to the auditor.

A person with the session and social presence of a professional auditor and that presence can be summed up as a being who can handle anyone with communication alone and whose communication can stand up faultlessly to any session or social situation no matter how rough.

A being who knows he can achieve both of the above flawlessly and from here on out.

I invite here to a discussion of the validity of the above End Phenomena, other similar objective claims in Scientology, and of why people would attest to something that is impossible to honestly claim to have achieved.


Why does the Scientology mindfuck go so deep?

I believe it is due to the hope that Scientology instills.

A person enters Scientology with a hope of achieving something. For himself or perhaps even for the world.

Scientology promises the person will attain that goal, because there is nothing Scientology cannot ultimately handle according to Hubbard.

With the help of Scientology, the person achieves some gains letting the person believe his goal can be reached with Scientology.

Some more gains are had in the direction of his goal. Hope that Scientology can ultimately deliver his goal is reinforced.

Even if Scientology has not delivered or even cannot deliver on its promise, the person still has a powerful hope that Scientology will deliver his goal, any goal.

This hope can make the person do almost anything to protect Scientology. He may lie, deceive, betray his family, steal, commit fraud or worse. Perhaps much worse.

His hope will make him blind to any fault in Scientology. His hope will make him resort to any and all mental tricks to avoid his hope being blunted. Because losing hope is perhaps the most painful of all.

Hope is a good breakfast, but it is a bad supper. (Francis Bacon)

Interestingly, I notice that some of the most fanatical Scientologists I have met are the one’s with little training and/or auditing. Those who have not yet understood that Scientology habitually oversells and underdelivers.

BBC: How Scientology changed the Internet

Interesting overview of the history of Scientology vs. the Internet over at BBC Technology.

The Internet may be the one factor in society where Scientology has had the biggest negative impact. The church is busy moving the arena of free speech into a tightly regulated and controlled venue, smacking of 1984.

Read the BBC article here.

The video that helped spark BBC’s interest:
Church of Scientology and their Internet war

Video on the Wikipedia ban:
Video: Scientology and Wikipedia (Internet war)

What are you doing about it?

We’re not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn’t cute or something to do for lack of something better.

The whole agonized future of this planet, every man, woman and child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology.

This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance.

Remember, this is our first chance to do so in all the endless trillions of years of the past. (L. Ron Hubbard, “Keeping Scientology Working”)

If you are a Scientologist in the Church of Scientology, you most probably see the above as true and believe that David Miscavige is doing all that he possibly can to lead the Church and save the universe. If this is the case, you have not seen or ignored the evidence that he is not delivering expansion for Scientology.

If you are an Independent Scientologist, you most probably see the above as true and believe that David Miscavige is the reason why Scientology is not saving the universe. If this is the case, then all that stands in the way of saving the universe is one single man. If you believe this, then you are obviously working day and night to get this one man removed as he is blocking the salvation for eternity for you, for your family, people you love, for mankind and every living organism in the entire universe. Because nothing could be more important in the whole universe than removing this sole block on the ultimate path to freedom. Then what the heck are you doing about it right now? This very minute? Why are you wasting our precious time reading this blog? You should get your ass in gear and ensure Miscavige is removed from power. Because that is more important than your day job, your hobbies, your immediate life.

If none of the two options above applies to you, then lean back, relax and enjoy the discussions.

Thanks Brendan for another interesting angle to the world of Scientology.

Scientology => Church of Scientology

About a week after I left the Church of Scientology (2009-08-07), I started my first blog on Scientology with the title:



My purpose was to highlight my view that Scientology does not equal the Church of Scientology.

Since then, there has been an evolution in my viewpoint. After almost 4 years of blogging and hundreds of discussions on Scientology, several with more than a thousand exchanges with very intelligent and knowledgeable people, I can sum up my current view like this:

The Church of Scientology can be upbraided for not following Hubbard’s scripture or policy to the letter. There are deviations such as (warning – Scientology nomencaluter): Sec Checking during OT 7, the forming of the IAS as a fund raising organization (although Hubbard engaged in pure fundraising himself), fundraising for Ideal Orgs, implementing GAT perfection below Class 6/7/8 auditors, etc. But as a whole, I believe nowhere in history can we find an organization that has so diligently and perfectionistically implemented an ideology. From my experience, the Church of Scientology implements Hubbard’s text to an accuracy of at least 99.9%. Focusing on the deviations is nitpicking.

While it is fairly easy to find inconsistencies in Scientology, Hubbard was overall very consistent. Focusing on the inconsistencies is nitpicking.

It is also possible to nitpick as to what actually constitutes Scientology. But to quote Hubbard (Policy Letter, “Keeping Admin Working”):

Therefore, to keep Scientology working, all of Scientology, one must insist on standard tech and admin…

Obviously, a subject cannot be equal to a physical entity such as a church. The title of my early Scientology blog is nevertheless misleading.

I believe that the Church of Scientology is a natural result of Scientology as written and set up by L. Ron Hubbard.

The current church is at least 99.9% a product as founded and envisioned by Hubbard. David Miscavige is doing an admirable job as the leader of the church (more on that in an upcoming video).

This will not go down well with many Independent Scientologists who hold that Scientology is as close as one can get to a perfect way for freeing a person, a mind, a spirit. But even the most ardent defenders of Scientology must suspect there is something wrong in an ideology that gives birth to a church that habitually cons people and wrecks families.

The recent confirmation of the authenticity of an infamous Technical Bulletin by Hubbard where he says Christ was a pedophile and that Lucifer was actually the force of good and where Hubbard says he was Buddha and also Anti-Christ may shed some light on why the subject took a wrong turn.

Nitpicking is rampant on forums and blogs, like this one. But when I step back and look at the big picture, I see a natural and logical sequence of events where one man invents a philosophy and methodology of the mind and spirit, creates a church as a vehicle for its practice, dies and leaves it into the hands of people highly trained in his methodology and policy, and the church has thereafter tried to implement every single word of what he wrote. Sometimes the implementation is inaccurate or plain wrong, but by and large it is a damn good representation of what Hubbard wrote.

I should perhaps change the tagline of my original Scientology blog to:

Scientology => Church of Scientology

Meaning: “Scientology IMPLIES Church of Scientology“, or “Church of Scientology FOLLOWS LOGICALLY FROM Scientology

But I will leave it as a trail showing where I was wrong and how my view has changed.